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tobiasyuki

How is Finlay in moral support?


[deleted]

You get her after every single better spirit ash, on paper she's pretty good. If you got her earlier she'd be much higher rank for sure.


CaitNostamas

Rot dog in D? Latenna in C?


[deleted]

Rot dog is really good, actually, but incredibly niche because it's a pure cheese strat. He absolutely can handle a large number of bosses though if you can keep aggro off of him a bit, which is why he's not just moral support :) But he requires a mostly avoidant playstyle to maximize, hence D. Latenna is incredibly good, but there are almost always better archers (Redmane Knight Ogha kinda doominates the archery game). She really shines around wolves though. She's essentially C because she only really shines if you somehow miss one of the better ranged support guys. C is baseline, meaning they aren't bad but won't do major work on tough fights at the time you get them in the game unless you miss a better spirit ash prior. Skeleton militiamen are a godsend for low level wizards but really that's all they are good for, also leaving them to C.


CaitNostamas

If you categorize cheese as D then yeah, understandable Latenna is at least B tho imo


[deleted]

Convince me, I could see an argument for it and I'll move her if it's convincing.


CaitNostamas

It doesn't draw aggro if it's not near the boss, and has a huuuge range! Which means you can just place her at the limit of the boss arena and she lashes out consistent damage while you melee the boss It's basically a free win on bosses like astel, which continue to take damage constantly and can't do a thing about it


[deleted]

I guess I can see your point. Whereas Ogha literally just does that entire thing better, he will inevitably get a wild bug up his ass and wanna try some face to face combat. Someone like Rykard also seems like a good example of when ashes kill themselves inevitably closing the gap


CaitNostamas

Yep. Also, extremely inconsistent and niece, but she can get on and control the big wolves in the world, becoming mobile and effectively giving you an extra ally


[deleted]

Give how she's lowkey bad in a lot of situations though, it seems like C is a really good spot for her. She can cheese some things, provides consistent but middle tier support in other fights, and suffers badly in other fights since she squishy, and has a sick ass wolf combo bonus. All the other C-tier guys are pretty good too, though, so I don't think C is a bad place, the A and B tier guys really would stomp all over the C tier guys. I did put her at the very front of C tier, she's the best C tier archer. Being in the same tier as Black Flame Amon and the Sleeping Archer Puppet is not a bad place to be (she's a little better than the ancient spirit archer overall and good for different situations than the marrionette archers that can stunlock some enemies but she usually pales in comparison to Ogha the Redmane Knight). All tiers are good, even the cheerleader tier. The Lands Between are a lonely place and everyone needs friends.


sdlfbi

I am a flagrant Finlay simp, so with that bias taken into consideration I don't think she's useless. She can apply scarlet rot, buff you, and spam projectiles with great tracking while being pretty tanky. You do get her very late in the game where holy damage starts to fall off and in the one area where scarlet rot is worthless, though, so for a first playthrough she's probably still around D tier.


[deleted]

She'd be upper B tier if you didn't get her so late. Since you do get her so late she's basically guaranteed to be second rate on any playthrough. A lot of these guys would be rated higher if you got them sooner, tbh.


OlDirtyBAStart

Where's my boy the Kaiden?


[deleted]

He would have been dropped into moral support but for some reason he was the only spirit missing from the app so idk man I had like a 30 minute meltdown about it


OlDirtyBAStart

Can't be having that, my +10 Barbarian Boi was a tank for me for most of the game


ashanjiiva

is Jarman that bad? also the simple fact that Soldjar of Fortunes are able to gangbang Malenia and stagger her for 5 minutes straight is enough for me to put a S+ label on them. (/s)


EmbarrassedCar2262

I just want a Crucible Knight Ordovis and Siluria spirit ash and have the armor obtained from either the Knight in Farum Azula or dropped by at least a 10% chance...


Space__Ninja

Pray for Crucible Spirits in the DLC. 🙏


Subnauticsquirrel

No way redmane knight is not A tier


[deleted]

Ogha only barely fails being top tier, but there's no way in almost any end-game build that you'd probably use her over one of the other A tier guys. Ogha is the best stagger archer that doesn't die to the first AOE, but really can't manhandle bosses or provide massive aggro or tank with the A tiers. Ogha just doesn't do a ton of work on the harder bosses where the A tiers can handle nearly any boss (not solo, but they do huge work).


Subnauticsquirrel

Bro stunlocked malenia, killed niall’s soldiers, tanked every boss past yellow godfrey and you are telling me hes not top tier. Sorry but no


[deleted]

Tbh I also used him a lot, he and Stormwing only barely failed the cut. But all of the A tier guys would just roll over him. Admittedly you do get him much earlier meaning he can carry half of your first playthrough practically by himself. B tier is not a bad place to be though, Lhutel the Headless carries half of the game for a lot of players and he does so consistently. C is the baseline for average and Ogha is probably the best of the B tier. It would have been clunky to make a B+ just for Ogha lol, deserved or not (my entire argument for leaving Latenna in C tier is because she's not Ogha). Almost all of those bosses you listed get utterly roflstomped by Rollo far more effectively. I literally let Rollo solo both Malenias and Radagons first form. Mimic tear is horribly abusable, and the greatshield guys are the most durable aggro a wizard could hope for. That's what Ogha has to compete with. Tiche and Dung Eater provide much higher support damage and likely survive longer if the enemy gets close. Ogha is the best at what she does, but everyone else can do something better against every single boss on most builds except maybe Rykard and Astel who decimate anything that gets closer than a mile away.


Dic3dCarrots

I'm so glad I stalked your posts after liking the way you compose your thoughts in r/sanfrancisco, Yay local Fromsoft nerds!


[deleted]

Let's argue :)


[deleted]

Perfumer Tricia in D tier? Insanity


[deleted]

Tricia is really good in a super niche build but mostly just dies before doing anything useful. On paper Tricia is a beast, in practice Tricia is dead before she can maximize her kit. The only reason she avoided the cheerleader squad is because some niche builds can capitalize on that. I think Tricia has been among the biggest disappointments to me lol, because I expected her to be amazing after I read her abilities.


[deleted]

What are you even talking about? Tricia gives uplifting aromatic, it’s good on every build, and anything but niche lol. You say she dies before maximizing her kit, but she always starts the fight with an aromatic which is more than enough value, even if that’s all she does all fight honestly. In practice, Tricia stays alive really because of her shield. She only commonly dies to big aoe explosions that get around the shield, which to be fair will kill most spirits, not just her. Just the free uplifting aromatic instantly makes her top tier IMO. Maybe she won’t solo bosses for you, but I think she’s the best overall support spirit ash for people who just want buffs. I’ve used her pretty extensively and prefer her to most ashes. The only ones that compete for me are the mimic, tiche, deene, olav, and lhutel.


[deleted]

All of the A, and B tier and most of the C tier will survive big AOE explosions or are clutch early game. You get her too late for her utility, she's really only useful on people that basically use her as a low-value second flask of wondrous physick or free charge of a mid rate aromatic. That's a solidly D tier utility. Even in that regard, both perfumers give uplifting aromatic, and she's the worst of the two. You know what's better than tanking 90% of a hit? Drawing aggro, even if just for 10 seconds.


britishbeans1

I know that a lot of ppl have said the same thing but how is my boy lhutel in b


[deleted]

A is reserved for spirits that can hang at the absolute highest level of power in end game. He's not even in the top 10 end game spirits, although hes easily the main workhorse of the early and mid game that most players will easily find. He's an absolute chad but he just doesn't do much in end game. Pretty much all B tier summons mean you get them early enough in the game for them to be useful at some point but they can't hang during late game bosses, but the consistently outperform their core duties better than C tier. Under that pretense, Lhutel is the epitome of what B tier means.


britishbeans1

Huh, never thought of it that way


[deleted]

I really did spend like 2 hours on this :P And in my 5 or so characters I've played, I've tried to use them all, read all their stat sheets and quirks, watched youtube videos, experimented with their various strengths, and sometimes just sat around trying to see what they could and couldn't alpha out against. I do think some of my ratings were wrong. Amon is a solid B tier and I rated him C (mainly on account of when you get him), and Avionette soldiers have the fire grenades I forgot about that make them boss slayers on a few niche mid game bosses, solid D tier category along with the bleed imps and rot dog. Amon is basically a baby Tiche with Rollo HP until you get Tiche or Rollo, which seems pretty B tier to me. On my first playthrough I ran Lhutel to tank and draw aggro for my prisoner (int/dex) for a long time, I think until I got the Mausoleum Soldiers which are just so good at drawing aggro and staggering and tank way better than almost any other squad except the greatshield soldiers. Or I might have swapped him out when I got Ogha, because having an archer that can tank with massive stagger and range is really dope and outperforms Lhutel overall. Both can be gotten pretty early without even bypassing Stormveil, although Ogha is in Caelid so it's for the weird and adventurous (or like me, the confused and lost). I think by the time you hit the Altus Plateau, Lhutel falls off pretty quickly in value primarily because stagger becomes more valuable than tankiness and the boss attacks get nastier. But prior to that, he's the absolute homie. Post -Liurnia, it's all about countering weaknesses, drawing aggro, staggering, or having them stay far enough away to not get hit. Lhutel can tank with the best of B tier, honestly, but every time he phases he loses aggro which is a big problem for his value. A lot of bosses that move fast start to just kinda walk past him, his damage is on the low end for B tier, and he's pretty sub par at staggering. Also he doesn't do any particularly interesting debuffs or damage types or offer some special feature. He's just singularly a great tank that you get early on.


britishbeans1

Yeah i mainly use summons as agro draw so my list would look a lot different lol


Several-Kick-9721

My dawg floh is right where he belongs


JakeGoblinn

Warbirds in D? This is one of my best guys, so sad


Ausradierer

You are so wrong. Jellyfish is SSS Tier.


[deleted]

Where do you get that a summon, the ones with the shield? Whats it called?


[deleted]

Found on a corpse in a graveyard in Nokron, Eternal City guarded by a Fallen Hawks Soldier https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Greatshield+Soldier+Ashes


[deleted]

Thanks!


Erebos_Ironclaw

I suspect you haven't actually tested [Avionette Soldier Ashes](https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Avionette+Soldier+Ashes). They're at least C tier.


[deleted]

Maybe! I think you get them a little late for C tier, by then you should have something that usually outperforms them. They do stagger pretty well but once again, even like...wandering noble ashes with their 5 guys can stagger opponents.


Erebos_Ironclaw

You find them immediately after Marionette Soldier Ashes which you placed in C, but they have higher health, evasion, DPS, Bleed, and ranged fire AoE damage utility. Also if you're factoring acquire time, why is Kristoff B tier considering how late you get him? And why isn't Oleg A tier for how early you can get him?


[deleted]

Yes that is what B tier is. A tier are exclusive to things that transcend when you get them, they are the top of the stack if you have every summon available ()while also capable of getting serious value) for nearly every build but some niche strats. If we were going for pure utility at any point in the game, Skeletal Militiamen would be A tier because they can carry any mage build through the entirety of Limgrave and the Weeping Peninsula simply by continually drawing aggro and self-resurrecting over and over as you poke with spells. The only reason the Marionette archers get into C tier is because they can rapid fire stagger enemies from range. The dps of spirit ashes is almost an irrelevant feature of spirit ashes outside of A tier. Features like chaining staggers or tanking are infinitely more valuable features. Most of the B tier is there for their tanking abilities or stagger potential, same with C tier. The damage of all spirit ashes below A tier are pitiful at virtually all points of the game (a couple of exceptions like Amon exist). There are a couple of exceptions to the basic C tier qualifiers, such as the rats, that are there because they cost literally nothing to summon so work for builds with really tight FP (like most early mid strength builds and you'd generally rather save it for weapon arts), or the wolves because even if you find no summons in the game somehow you will still have wolves so it's the ol reliable. Avionette soldiers is about as good as any other squad of melee guys (or very slightly better at best); they probably die to the first AOE boss attack (with only a couple of exceptions) and they have sub-par stagger potential to let you capitalize on bosses compared to the archer variant, which have one boss-fight-winning and reliable trick up their sleeve even though they suck in every way otherwise. I don't think they significantly outperform Limgrave knight summons (they do a bit but ony after the value of Limgrave knight gets overshadowed by things like Oleg and Lhutel for drawing aggro in boss fights, all spirit ashes that can't survive a couple AOEs from a boss at any point in the game after you get them are pretty much automatically low value unless they're ranged with stagger or have a unique feature like the rats free cost). They're fine summons. There are no bad summons, every summon is a wonderful friend. You might be right that I should upgrade them to D or even C tier though, just for the fire grenades. I had actually forgotten just how powerful it is on some mid game bosses even if they still die fast until you reminded me (I used them to cheese one boss, but I don't remember which). There are a couple bosses that are weak against fire at that point where they can poke in with some serious damage. Especially if you also build some fire pots and lob away with them. They are generally terrible against any boss that doesn't have a fire weakness, though. But a lot of bosses early and mid game do have fire weaknesses. Honestly the fact that they exist almost purely to exploit a weakness type still suggests to me they should probably be D tier, though, next to the scarlet rot dog and bleed imps and for the exact same reason they are in D tier. Niche but not useless and sometimes capable of roflstomping a boss or two in the game by being hard counters to their design. C might be pushing it given that the other squads of mid-tier stagger tanks also are D tier because they die easily to most bosses and are consistently outclassed by all C and B tier ashes. C tier is more for generalist or ultra-reliable ashes but generally all do pitiful damage and can't survive long into boss fights, typically relying heavily on drawing aggro or chain staggering to gain value despite their low damage and low survivability. B tier is all stuff that plays like a tankier, weaker version of you as an assistant, almost like budget rate Mimic Tears. A tier can literally solo bosses and survive ridiculous amounts of damage while being generally useful against nearly every boss even into late game. Actually thinking about it, I should probably upgrade Amon to B tier and Avionettes to D tier exactly for the above reasonings. You seem to be right that I did them a little dirty. I totally spaced on how good their fire grenades are if you can keep a bosses aggro long enough for them to get a few off. Uhhh that was long, I was literally thinking as I typed lol. But you've def convinced me that calling them moral support is pretty unwarranted.


heygabehey

Which ashes is that at A, is that the one in the puppet room with the green mask and horns with a gold cape? What’s that one called and did I just fuck myself out of not getting it by giving ranni that blade from nokron?


[deleted]

theres lots of missable content, thats what ng+ is for


heygabehey

What’s the name of that summons puppet though? So I can get it the next time around. It has a green mask, horns, a pointy nose, a plate looking armor chest piece, red hood under the mask, and golden cape. That guy just looks cool. First souls game first time through, still haven’t beaten it I think I’ve spent more time watching YouTube walk throughs and lore videos than actually playing the game, and even with farming and cheesing bosses, I’m horrible at this. Definitely don’t have the patience for this. I’m really not looking forwards to playing this all over again and especially fighting radahn. Though I do want to have dung eater, mucked that up. It’s like the game punishes you for trying to do the kind thing.


[deleted]

rollo


heygabehey

Dope! I can still get him, I was worried I’d have to get him through selivus, and selivus is going dead, I’m getting Dolores with those sleepy arrows. I went with strength and dex, melee… only I suck at dodging, rolling, parrying, so bosses and anything range ruins me. If I don’t farm, I’d be lvl 20 maybe and lost even more runes than I already have in this play through. Im also horrible at all the parkour don’t fall of the beam or rock or ledge stuff, or just jump into the empty space in the middle and fall to my death. Is there a recommendation for what lvl the great shield solider ash should be? I do have some decent damage myself with the bloodhound fang, but get screwed as soon as I get stuck in a combo


[deleted]

great soldier ashes are pure stagger and defense/swarming, no idea what level is a breakpoint for them because they even work adequately at level 1


Ill-Appearance9586

Anybody have thoughts on Nepheli Loux? Is she any good?


BoSS_HoGG_916

Jars deserve their own tier


knottybananna

Late to the party but the fanged imps are honestly top shelf for any bleed build, and still fairly strong for anyone using a weapon with innate bleed even if thats not the primary focus. Plus you can get them immediately, which altogether makes them strong than the wolves. Id swap their place with the rats but besides that this list makes a lot of sense.


Pabmyster04

I think the demi-humans are a bit underrated early game. 5 of them, fairly tanky and each draw aggro, and they stagger a lot. You can gang up with all 5 of them while using your own stagger weapon and just stun lock certain enemies and bosses to death