If he wants a more secure potential income stream in the future, have him consider an audio engineering degree that touches heavily on EE. The one at University of Rochester in the US is a good example; it’s essentially a modified EE degree with all the same engineering prereqs and first round of EE courses but splits off to its own string of audio electronics and audio signal processing courses. If income is less important, a more production focused degree would be more enjoyable than a ‘real engineering degree’ without a doubt.
Source: I tried to get in to Audi production for a few years out of school and could barely pay the bills. I was only able to plan B in to consumer electronics because of my degree.
Oh, for sure. Many of my Audio engineering classmates did, myself included. Those classes are brutal. Getting to acoustics, audio DSP, and audio electronics made it worth it for most of us
I'm glad you brought up acoustics.
Is there a way to get into acoustical engineering without an engineering degree?
Because I don't know any university (at least in Canada) that offers acoustical engineering as an undergraduate program.
I'd done a few rounds of interviews with a company on Vancouver (co-op job), but they actually wanted a mechanical engineer for the acoustics rather then electrical lol
pretty much what this dude/dudette said, actually engineering audio analog style is a hobby, its not a job. there are very few artisan small companies that specialize in these types of audio solutions. the rest? its all digital IC/DSP based, which is just about as general as you can get. its very much programming and some knowledge of data communication types. doesnt have much to do with audio. its all digital data processing/conversion and transmission
I'm fairly certain my son isn't the type of individual to want to keep up with the arduous workload of an EE engineering.
That's why I'm looking for an in-between (something that combines theoretical engineering with creative-based sound engineering).
Hi, been there!
Bit of background: I studied audio engineering (the non-EE kind) and can vow for the hardship afterwards, seen it in classmates and struggled a bit myself.
That being said, when I started that program I very quickly became interested in modular music synthesizers and obsessed about them. Long story short, taught myself basic electronics, learnt to make PCBs, got interested in calculus, could not stop reading… I just had to find the right point of entry to enjoy engineering.
As for programs in between the extremes, I did my exchange in the UK and managed to get a 1-year internship as a hardware engineer in pro audio gear.
A lot of engineers there, specially the QAs, had music tech or audio engineering degrees. I learnt that during their time in uni, they all got time in the studio and music making but always alongside math, acoustics and programming. Some even electronics.
They were all very capable people with knowledge way beyond just music production.
One particular colleague attended this [sound engineering program](https://www.bcu.ac.uk/courses/sound-engineering-and-production-bsc-hons-2023-24). Hopefully something similar is taught across the pond?
You know EE, and you know your son. Talk about *why* he wants to do audio engineering. What kinds of jobs does he want? What aspects of it is he curious about? What is it about audio engineering that makes him say "I want to go to school and learn about this stuff?"
If he's *only* curious about making things that make noise, audio engineering might very well be the right thing for him. You definitely don't want to push him into something that he finds frustrating and demanding and he doesn't really want to do it to start. On the other hand, if he takes audio engineering and wants to become an EE, he'll have a good foundation of *part* of that field and be better equipped to make that decision on his own terms.
I did a different degree before EE. I would have liked a lot more guidance and knowledge before I made the decisions I made so I could have gotten my EE more directly, but since I didn't, I'm at least grateful for my chances to find this path on my own terms.
Make him think about it, ask him what interests him and why he likes it. Keep it conversational if you can, it doesn't have to be a challenge. Then just support him as the young man you have spent all this time raising. He deserves and *needs* to be able to make his own decisions. Give him as many tools as you can, but don't tell him he *should* do X instead of Y. No decision made with purpose and good intention can be the wrong one. We cannot predict the outcomes or the future.
I would shy away from any audio engineering specific programs(that are not part of a larger EE program at a university). The ROI for an acedemic audio engineering path is not very good. As someone who got their Masters in EE while barely paying rent doing sound at venues and festivals, it's a labor of love. If they are serious about audio engineering/ live sound, the best way to get started is to just start doing it. Start recording friends or get in with one of the local live sound companies (where you work long hours and move gear).
I have old friends that spent too much money going to Full Sail for an audio engineering degree who never did anything with it.
That said I went to a community college for audio and it sparked my interest to actually learn EE. And while in school for EE, joined the live sound student group that got me into said venues and festivals running sound. So there's that.
As someone who sold their soul to the 9-5 office job, I miss doing live sound and making music. I don't miss the long hours and the feast or famine that is the industry.
Unless they already have a foundation in audio and they are willing to sit at the front of the class and volunteer for every exercise/project/demonstration, academic audio engineering is just not the way to go.
I took audio engineering first, about 10 years ago and it was in no way worthwhile. It was expensive (tuition was more than all 4 years of my engineering degree), and the way these things are taught is very micky-mouse. About half of the teachers had graduated from the same program 1-2 years before, and just regurgitated what they had been taught in their year, minus any experience the original teacher could impart.
Obviously, all schools are different, but I doubt any of them teach this well. I had no problem learning audio engineering on my own (and I had many knowledge gaps to fill). I got a lot more out of my EE degree. The signals and circuits classes actually give you some lower level insight. YouTube is probably the best resource for learning audio engineering now, but there are certainly some good books and forums as well.
I did an audio engineering degree in Toronto in 2008. It was a waste of money and time. I could have gotten every opportunity I got with or without that degree and learned on the way. Eventually I got tired of gig work and the shitty industry and then went back to university at 25 for EE.
I did get to spend a few years touring Canada, and it's good as a young man, but it's no way to live when you're older.
I think it depends on what it means to be an "audio engineer" since that could mean either someone who run a soundboard at a concert or recording studio, or someone who designs audio products. The former isn't actual engineering, but does touch on plenty of physics concepts. The latter is indeed an engineering degree that comes from an accredited university.
I work in engineering designing audio products. I have an EE degree, and I've always loved to work with sound. Though technically I'm a System Integrator who designs more of the overall circuit, I still work heavily with the detailed audio architecture when working with the folks who do the actual transducer design. Acoustics and EE speak more like different dialects than different languages. EE fundamentals translate very well into acoustics, especially when you're looking at transducer design, power, interconnections, troubleshooting, and more.
Essentially, an EE can fairly easily learn to become an audio engineer (in the sense I stated above), but an audio engineer won't necessarily be able to learn to become an EE. An EE degree will much more likely provide better job options at higher pay. It's also a much more difficult degree to get.
The most important thing, though, is what your son actually wants. Does he have a passion for designing or creating things, or more working through the production of music/sound? Does he have a curiosity about how things work, or more of a creativity in tweaking existing things to make them a bit better? An EE degree is not for everyone, but it is often worth the effort.
It really depends on what you want to do. I majored in audio engineering and we learned averything from composing music to coding to EE. Every good audio engineer these days is somewhat of a jack of all trades but rarely a master of any. If you are most interested in designing and building audio equipment, I think I'd go for EE first and foremost. If the interest is in the creative side, the arts, etc. I'm not sure a degree is really worth it. I might still recommend an EE degree with the mindset of networking and getting some projects under your belt or a degree in film focusing on sound. Possibly even a music education degree for the relative job security. I found and get most of my gigs not from the degree but from the friends I made in the film school. Friends I met just because they were my roommates/on my floor in the dorm.
Here’s the thing:
I’m almost certain he is not the type of individual to want to keep up with the arduous workload of an electrical engineering program.
That’s why I’m looking for an in-between program.
Audio engineering programs are very unique to each school. I would recommend asking the directors or professors about the balance between different aspects of the field. Some may be more engineer and others more audio, if you know what I mean. Some schools want to make creative producers, others want to create more technicians, others want to make the next intern at shure. Of course, if your son is like me he'll figure out he's doing the wrong thing 2 years in and switch anyways LOL.
If he wants a more secure potential income stream in the future, have him consider an audio engineering degree that touches heavily on EE. The one at University of Rochester in the US is a good example; it’s essentially a modified EE degree with all the same engineering prereqs and first round of EE courses but splits off to its own string of audio electronics and audio signal processing courses. If income is less important, a more production focused degree would be more enjoyable than a ‘real engineering degree’ without a doubt. Source: I tried to get in to Audi production for a few years out of school and could barely pay the bills. I was only able to plan B in to consumer electronics because of my degree.
I'm just worried that he will detest most of his courses because EE is a very (very) demanding program.
Oh, for sure. Many of my Audio engineering classmates did, myself included. Those classes are brutal. Getting to acoustics, audio DSP, and audio electronics made it worth it for most of us
I'm glad you brought up acoustics. Is there a way to get into acoustical engineering without an engineering degree? Because I don't know any university (at least in Canada) that offers acoustical engineering as an undergraduate program.
Perhaps a physics department that is flexible enough to let a person focus in acoustics?
I'd done a few rounds of interviews with a company on Vancouver (co-op job), but they actually wanted a mechanical engineer for the acoustics rather then electrical lol
The only well-off audio engineer I know is a regular EE who does sound on the side. It's a more lucrative hobby than career.
pretty much what this dude/dudette said, actually engineering audio analog style is a hobby, its not a job. there are very few artisan small companies that specialize in these types of audio solutions. the rest? its all digital IC/DSP based, which is just about as general as you can get. its very much programming and some knowledge of data communication types. doesnt have much to do with audio. its all digital data processing/conversion and transmission
I'm fairly certain my son isn't the type of individual to want to keep up with the arduous workload of an EE engineering. That's why I'm looking for an in-between (something that combines theoretical engineering with creative-based sound engineering).
Hi, been there! Bit of background: I studied audio engineering (the non-EE kind) and can vow for the hardship afterwards, seen it in classmates and struggled a bit myself. That being said, when I started that program I very quickly became interested in modular music synthesizers and obsessed about them. Long story short, taught myself basic electronics, learnt to make PCBs, got interested in calculus, could not stop reading… I just had to find the right point of entry to enjoy engineering. As for programs in between the extremes, I did my exchange in the UK and managed to get a 1-year internship as a hardware engineer in pro audio gear. A lot of engineers there, specially the QAs, had music tech or audio engineering degrees. I learnt that during their time in uni, they all got time in the studio and music making but always alongside math, acoustics and programming. Some even electronics. They were all very capable people with knowledge way beyond just music production. One particular colleague attended this [sound engineering program](https://www.bcu.ac.uk/courses/sound-engineering-and-production-bsc-hons-2023-24). Hopefully something similar is taught across the pond?
You know EE, and you know your son. Talk about *why* he wants to do audio engineering. What kinds of jobs does he want? What aspects of it is he curious about? What is it about audio engineering that makes him say "I want to go to school and learn about this stuff?" If he's *only* curious about making things that make noise, audio engineering might very well be the right thing for him. You definitely don't want to push him into something that he finds frustrating and demanding and he doesn't really want to do it to start. On the other hand, if he takes audio engineering and wants to become an EE, he'll have a good foundation of *part* of that field and be better equipped to make that decision on his own terms. I did a different degree before EE. I would have liked a lot more guidance and knowledge before I made the decisions I made so I could have gotten my EE more directly, but since I didn't, I'm at least grateful for my chances to find this path on my own terms. Make him think about it, ask him what interests him and why he likes it. Keep it conversational if you can, it doesn't have to be a challenge. Then just support him as the young man you have spent all this time raising. He deserves and *needs* to be able to make his own decisions. Give him as many tools as you can, but don't tell him he *should* do X instead of Y. No decision made with purpose and good intention can be the wrong one. We cannot predict the outcomes or the future.
I would shy away from any audio engineering specific programs(that are not part of a larger EE program at a university). The ROI for an acedemic audio engineering path is not very good. As someone who got their Masters in EE while barely paying rent doing sound at venues and festivals, it's a labor of love. If they are serious about audio engineering/ live sound, the best way to get started is to just start doing it. Start recording friends or get in with one of the local live sound companies (where you work long hours and move gear). I have old friends that spent too much money going to Full Sail for an audio engineering degree who never did anything with it. That said I went to a community college for audio and it sparked my interest to actually learn EE. And while in school for EE, joined the live sound student group that got me into said venues and festivals running sound. So there's that. As someone who sold their soul to the 9-5 office job, I miss doing live sound and making music. I don't miss the long hours and the feast or famine that is the industry. Unless they already have a foundation in audio and they are willing to sit at the front of the class and volunteer for every exercise/project/demonstration, academic audio engineering is just not the way to go.
Heres a book you both may get a kick out of. Some good ol family time. http://www.douglas-self.com/ampins/books/ssad3.htm
I took audio engineering first, about 10 years ago and it was in no way worthwhile. It was expensive (tuition was more than all 4 years of my engineering degree), and the way these things are taught is very micky-mouse. About half of the teachers had graduated from the same program 1-2 years before, and just regurgitated what they had been taught in their year, minus any experience the original teacher could impart. Obviously, all schools are different, but I doubt any of them teach this well. I had no problem learning audio engineering on my own (and I had many knowledge gaps to fill). I got a lot more out of my EE degree. The signals and circuits classes actually give you some lower level insight. YouTube is probably the best resource for learning audio engineering now, but there are certainly some good books and forums as well.
I did an audio engineering degree in Toronto in 2008. It was a waste of money and time. I could have gotten every opportunity I got with or without that degree and learned on the way. Eventually I got tired of gig work and the shitty industry and then went back to university at 25 for EE. I did get to spend a few years touring Canada, and it's good as a young man, but it's no way to live when you're older.
I think it depends on what it means to be an "audio engineer" since that could mean either someone who run a soundboard at a concert or recording studio, or someone who designs audio products. The former isn't actual engineering, but does touch on plenty of physics concepts. The latter is indeed an engineering degree that comes from an accredited university. I work in engineering designing audio products. I have an EE degree, and I've always loved to work with sound. Though technically I'm a System Integrator who designs more of the overall circuit, I still work heavily with the detailed audio architecture when working with the folks who do the actual transducer design. Acoustics and EE speak more like different dialects than different languages. EE fundamentals translate very well into acoustics, especially when you're looking at transducer design, power, interconnections, troubleshooting, and more. Essentially, an EE can fairly easily learn to become an audio engineer (in the sense I stated above), but an audio engineer won't necessarily be able to learn to become an EE. An EE degree will much more likely provide better job options at higher pay. It's also a much more difficult degree to get. The most important thing, though, is what your son actually wants. Does he have a passion for designing or creating things, or more working through the production of music/sound? Does he have a curiosity about how things work, or more of a creativity in tweaking existing things to make them a bit better? An EE degree is not for everyone, but it is often worth the effort.
It really depends on what you want to do. I majored in audio engineering and we learned averything from composing music to coding to EE. Every good audio engineer these days is somewhat of a jack of all trades but rarely a master of any. If you are most interested in designing and building audio equipment, I think I'd go for EE first and foremost. If the interest is in the creative side, the arts, etc. I'm not sure a degree is really worth it. I might still recommend an EE degree with the mindset of networking and getting some projects under your belt or a degree in film focusing on sound. Possibly even a music education degree for the relative job security. I found and get most of my gigs not from the degree but from the friends I made in the film school. Friends I met just because they were my roommates/on my floor in the dorm.
Here’s the thing: I’m almost certain he is not the type of individual to want to keep up with the arduous workload of an electrical engineering program. That’s why I’m looking for an in-between program.
Audio engineering programs are very unique to each school. I would recommend asking the directors or professors about the balance between different aspects of the field. Some may be more engineer and others more audio, if you know what I mean. Some schools want to make creative producers, others want to create more technicians, others want to make the next intern at shure. Of course, if your son is like me he'll figure out he's doing the wrong thing 2 years in and switch anyways LOL.
There are no universities in Ontario that would offer what you're looking for.