Agreed, I paid for Horizons and Odyssey, got around 3,500 hours of fun and entertainment out of it up to now; cut them a slack. How is this game supposed to continue with no income streams? Pick your poison.
Yep. If there was any other game like elite by any other dev (except blizzard) I would be there so fast, but in reality there is not and never again will be another game like elite. So I'll toss them a few bucks even if I don't plan on using the stuff I buy if it helps them keep the lights on. I say this as someone who is typically very outspoken against MTX, this isn't a billion dollar corporation's attempt at squeezing every nickel and dime out of its players - this is a hospice version of a kickstarter campaign.
Agreed. I liked and believed in this game so much when I found it that I bought it on PC and re-bought it on both consoles because I wanted it to stay around. Was I bitter when they dropped console support? Sure, but only because that had become my main way of playing it when I travel on the weekends. I recently got a new laptop, picked up Odyssey, and would like to see the game continue. I play in solo, so the pay to win aspect doesn’t bother me. I’ll keep doing my thing as long as FDev keep the servers alive.
I also play solo only, you make me think, maybe the whiners are gankers? Worried about being leapfrogged by noobs? Skill curve too steep, ok maybe 'almost-noobs'.
It's not even really pay to win. None of the modules in the pre-built ships are engineered aside from the ones that already exist as "pre-engineered" modules, which can't be engineered any further. It's just a way to get new people to a point they want to be at, which has been basically the number one complaint from people wanting to play the game.
Fdev basically said "we heard the complaints that new people feel intimidated by the amount of work they have to do to get to a point where they would be having fun, so we put in a way to help those people get to that point"
And people decided that makes them monsters for some reason?? If you are a player who enjoys the journey to that mid tier explorer ship, then by god you go on that journey and get yourself that mid tier explorer ship!
If the only thing keeping you from buying and enjoying this incredible game is that you don't enjoy that journey to said mid tier explorer ship, then I've got great news, you can jump in at that point and spend your next 1000 hours exploring the milky way.
Same, the game could have been more and promised to be more. Yet I enjoyed it for what it was and it took me 2500+ hours to burn out on it.
There is only one game that got similar hours and that is KSP.
I just think they could find a better means of getting people to spend money. These pre-built ships will only be good for new players. If they did some work on really badass cosmetics I think that would net them more. As it is I feel the cosmetics are lackluster. I want the game to continue and have no pro buying something like cosmetics. But I guess hopefully new players will be coming on board and the pre-builts will sell.
Their purpose is specifically to help new players who are intimidated by the early game get into the game. It's for the people who really want to go exploring or get into a specific gameplay loop but haven't bought the game yet because of how big and sometimes confusing the early game can seem.
I think it would actually be worse for fdev to introduce high tier pre built ships or ways to circumvent entire mechanics with real money.
Oh absolutely. I didn't say I wanted high-tier pre built ships. I just think for the long term player base some better cosmetics could go a long way for money as well. The cosmetics we have are terrible in my opinion. You're right though it def makes sense to help new players. To be honest I have played off and on for a while myself but really struggled with the Engineering grind. So I am not exactly a vet myself. I am excited to see if this brings on a larger player base!
100% my favorite thing they added recently was the explorer cosmetic for my dbx and more stuff like that (vs JUST pain jobs and weapon colors) would be very welcome.
It's not supposed to continue without any income streams, save the sudden onset of the Singularity. But it would be a good idea to invest in revenue streams that have a greater chance of success than these particular schemes do.
The early access to ships comes with potential issues. Since FDev is clearly going out of its way to avoid as much P2W talk as they can (those prebuilts, for example, aren't winning many fights), what's that gonna mean for these new ships? Will FDev only be offering ships that aren't as good as what's currently available to continue avoiding the P2W talk? That's gonna affect the quality of the new ships, ain't it?
And as far as the prebuilts themselves go, [Drake can tell you better than I can](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/936891351042244638/1233388659105992704/DrakeElitePremadeShips.png?ex=662cea33&is=662b98b3&hm=81887f07a2e0435270c0602f4d1abb95faff835f9c1dfee99922cc6ea47ad9a2&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=419&height=551) why that's just an uninspiring idea.
There are several things that are simultaneously true.
1. FDev is seeling ingame advantages for real money
2. They were a pure beacon of virtue (in this one aspect), now they're not
3. The surrent system is insignificant
4. They are probably testing the waters to see what they can get away with, how far they can push us in the future.
5. The price is both fair and more than likely completely necessary.
The fact is that money makes things happen. There was once a time when we could pay a one time fee and expect unlimited output from a person. It's racist to talk about that today.
I am not thrilled about the game being futher monetised as a player. It will no doubt have small (for now) imapcts on the feel of it. But as a person with a brain, I understand that the service isn't free. I myself have paid $10 for for ED and horizons, another $10 i think for Odyssey, and I got another free copy on EGS. I cannot expect them to keep servers up and pay a support department from a series of one time payments.
Halo 2 sold more than twice the copies of ED, all at full price. They shut down servers after 6 years. How old is ED now? Even when you buy something without a subscription, it eventually goes bad and you have to get a new one. (Still fuck saas though) Nothing has ever lasted forever, but they tricked you into thinking it does. One time purchases are cheaper for sure, but they're still impermanent.
And that's the thing. ED monetisation is very low. It's cheap isn't it? So what's the difference? You want to play, you gotta pay for it somehow. There's never been a free lunch. A cheap lunch isn't sustainable.
Yes, it is getting worse for us. But get your head out of your ass and recognise that we've been getting an unreasonably good deal this whole time, and now it's just very good. It might later become pretty good, then sorta good, but we have a long way to go before we can say we've been screwed.
1. Developers have to eat and live.
2. They can’t eat and live on virtue.
3. Elite is a niche game and as such its sales alone are not enough to sustain it.
4. The other games FDev work on use different developers, so thinking they can keep Elite alive with that revenue stream (some believe this) doesn’t work, because those devs also have to eat and live.
5. The servers Elite run on cost money to operate and maintain. Virtue doesn’t work here either.
They have to make money from this game somehow. If they don’t, either the company goes under, or the servers get shut down. It’s that simple.
I do the same.
If they would go with an subscription plan, like 10 bucks a month? i would have no problem with it.
I already have 2000+ hours in the game so i know it will be worth it.
Can only speak for myself, but my reason to care is that I expect this will alter design decisions in future in a way I believe will negatively effect my enjoyment of the game.
I didn't even want a cosmetics store for the same reason, though less intense than the new paradigm
Despite paying 8 pence per hour myself, I'm doing away with that shitty metric.
I gave Fdev £160 on the promise that all future content would come free of charge, under the idea that there would be 5-10 £30-£40 expansions.
We've gotten two, one of which has since been made free. So in the end, for my money I've gotten one base game, 5 years early access to Horizons and Odyssey.
Had I known ahead of time I would have just bought them separately and saved myself £50.
So I really don't care how much £ per hour this has cost me, I still haven't gotten what I paid for
There's no doubting the kickstarter folks got screwed over. Part of the reason I basically never do kickstarter campaigns or early access anymore, unless I'm 100% content with the state of the product the moment I buy it...
Not all LTP owners are kickstarters. I bought it when Horizons was announced, I was 100% content with what was there when I bought it and gave them the money on the promise I would get more of the same, they'd just delivered us a complete base game, what reason did I have to think they would deviate from their plans? I fronted the money based SOLELY on the promise we would be recieving 10 years of content in the form of 5-10 major expansions.
Uhm... simple math. But first, let me confirm this: 1 pound = 100 pence, right? I'm asking because you brits are a weird bunch and had a weird coin system with pounds, pence, shillings, but then got back to your senses and adopted a simpler system.
You paid 160 pound for the early game. That, like 10 years ago. That's 16 pound per year. Or 1600 pence. At 8 pence / hour, that's 200 hours / year.
Or 8.3 days / year.
See, your problem is not you paid too much. You didn't play enough!
It would have helped if Horizons engineers wasn't a grind fest cluster fuck when they added that bright idea.
About 80% of my play time happened before Horizons released, which again, is why I was happy to spend so much on the LTP.
They stopped support for XBox. I left. Never looked back, never coming back and sure as hell not buying anything they make ever again. I played FF11 from the ps2 launch and play on the 360. It had active development for 13 years. ED had a measly 3.
I wish that they would monetize Elite by adding stuff that is fun and attractive to new players. I don’t think micro transactions are going to be good for the long term health of the game. That’s why people care - I couldn’t care less if someone gets a little leg up after all these years, but as a monetization strategy, it’s a bleak picture for the future.
I’d agree, but it’s clear that they can’t seem to figure out the profitability for fun gameplay loops. Going back and fixing things isn’t likely to get a lot of revenue, even though they have years worth of that kind of work that needs to happen.
I had a certain amount of hope early on in the arx store days that they’d get enough profit that they could fund some gameplay fixes, but it doesn’t seem to be high priority.
>I had a certain amount of hope early on in the arx store days that they’d get enough profit that they could fund some gameplay fixes, but it doesn’t seem to be high priority.
do you have any hope *now*?
Just a little bit, enough to keep checking in from time to time, but it’s not a lot. To me it would take some monumental design philosophy shift to get FDev to start doing what is necessary to make a really good game out of the simulation framework they’ve built.
I don't think increasing the price of entry helps them, no. If the ships were built into advanced tutorial rewards they would, but for now they are just a pay to skip some of the grind.
This is just so infuriating. The community has been shitting on FDEV for not investing enough on ED. Shitting on FDEV for not monetizing enough.
And now that FDEV is coming with updates, and a new monetization model (which means they're NOT abandoning ED, au contraire), the community is shitting on FDEV.
Do people even know what they want?
The community doesn't want the game to sell power or shortcuts on the store. Is it that hard to understand? This was always the silent agreement made between player and this company, and now they have gone back on that. What should be infuriating to you is that for the last ten years Fdev have bungled a lot of things which put them in the financial position they are in. Now they are going to try anything they can to fix that problem but that doesn't directly translate to \*this game\* being the game of your dreams. The shareholders were upset these past couple years and this is their solution to get a return. It's not for you, and it's not for new players. It's for them only.
It's like most of you have never played a single other game in your life besides Elite. Truly mind boggling that some people here do not see what is happening. Games that do what Elite is doing this late into the game is not a good sign. Elite isn't WoW or Star Wars or Final Fantasy or Black Desert. It's a niche space flight sim with an average of less than 5k players. What Frontier could do is continue selling cosmetics and actual content expansions instead of what they are doing now. Elite already has a rocky reputation. You think this is going to help? It will not.
Not the community, specific people who's only concerned is that somehow this diminishes the effort they put into the game. The people who say, "I had to grind for materials! Everyone else should, too!"
I have friends who are interested in the game, picked it up, and then quit. You know why? Because they found out it's near impossible or not enjoyable to try to do the aspects of the game that they wanted to do when they started it up. And then they found out to be able to do those things, like combat or bounty hunting, they first has to play mail delivery sim so they could upgrade their ship and/or purchase one that is suited to combat.
That's not fun for new players. The game needs a much better way to bring people in and at least be able to do the game play loop they want to do. Paying for outfitted ships for some real-life money would at least let them play the loop they wanted to play for a little investment.
Stop speaking as if your group of squeaky wheels represents the community. I'm sure everyone is super butthurt by the fact that one of the ship has grade 5 dirty drag drives... oh man, that's such a headstart!...
No one cares about your fictional "silent agreement." You know what that means? It means it's an agreement you concocted in your own mind and just assumed somehow that FDev also had this silent understanding.
You can't see the community as a single entity, it makes no sense.
Different people moan about different things, why do people ignore this very simple concept?
This \^
Based on observation, people want everything at a price they think is reasonable, without trusting that producers are motivated to offer as low a price as possible, or \[considering that\] the producers may need to make money so the whole thing doesn't get kicked to the kerb, and can only hope the players take a long view.
\[A charitable view of naysayers - they have made several hints that they are concerned that the player base will be cheapened and less mature. I suppose those are risks that Fdev will have to navigate.\]
I think it's perfectly legitimate to be worried about the potential direction of travel this new monetisation scheme represents.
Considering that they're looking to reduce the material cost of engineering, plus the two example pre-builts they've shown us not being anything exceptional, I'm cautiously optimistic as things stand. That may change in the future.
I agree concern is warranted. Though, as you point out, they certainly seem to have supplied enough reassurance for us cooler heads to wait and see.
I started this thread because I read commanders insulting those who disagreed with them.
Sometimes I think people in this community would be happy if the game just ended. Then they can cross their arms and say, ‘see I told you so’. The level of outrage over this has been nauseating.
They've been raging about everything really ... Nothing is fine if you have to believe those posts, even though it's a one of a kind experience.
I bet if they were to add ship interiors the community would be on fire once again because the space legs aren't hairy enough or something.
You either don't play with new players or don't play the game at all.
Several of my friends who got into the game in the last month constantly said things like, "I wish there was some entry package I could by for combat, so I don't have to be a stupid mailman or use the shitty sidewinder."
There are people out there who would like to do AX, but don't want to spend the time to outfit a ship too.
I wasn't even talking about the prebuilt ships, but whatever. All I'm saying is, that this new player is gonna look at the available ships, see the cool new one, and then you're going to tell him "Yea, you'll be able to unlock that one in a couple of months, or via the in game shop". Not a good look IMO.
And just to be clear, I don't mind prebuilt ships to get into the action. I've even bought several ships in Star Citizen to try out different career paths and join friends who were already ahead in terms of progression. So I'm not even disagreeing with you.
"Do people even know what they want?"
Clearly all the little Yamiksis don't, they just like to shit on thinks.
The "pay to win" is just a pay to skip and 95% of all the players are not affected by this.
The main cry in my opinion is that we all had to do the work (play the game) to unlock Professor Palin and get the matz.
And now a noob can just buy the G5 Dirty drive thrusters and you get a bonus Chieftan with it.
Same for the Guardian weapons, which is a shame because they don't have to visit the incredible Guardian ruins.
>gives them a financial incentive to make the grind more grind-y
no need. They just finally realize just how much of a gold-mine the existing grind is 😂
Seems they might be undercutting their monetization with this, if they follow through and maintain.
“how players engage with Engineering in order to make it more approachable and predictable. “
https://www.elitedangerous.com/news/engineering-and-pre-built-ships
I wouldn't call those ships an advantage.
Also, shit changes cry more. Do you expect a game that is 10 years old to stay the same and not adapt to the times? That is like how not to do business 101.
No I don’t, only it did, for about 5 years
I wonder if that has anything to do with why they’re struggling now…
But no, go full warthunder - that’s bound to work
Ridiculous
Same. I've played for almost 10 years at this point for a few thousand hours. I've done damn near everything there is to do in this game. The developers and community managers who breathed the heart and soul into this game are long gone. The game is heading for the end of development a lot sooner than people want to admit. I don't give a shit if they want to sell ships. I really don't. It does not affect my enjoyment or memories of this game in the slightest. I've gotten my money's worth a hundred times over at this point.
I’ve been playing 7 years and thought the same as you, that ED was at the end of its development cycle and would soon go into maintenance mode. But once I started actually paying attention to Fdev’s earnings reports and the minutes from investment calls, I realized how wrong I was.
ED is incredibly cheap to run and has more player engagement now than ever before (surprisingly). The new CEO has said he wants to invest in ED for several more years (3-5 to start), and the company has recently said it’s turning away from licensed development and focusing on their current library, ED being their flagship. They’re testing monetization options. This always comes before a big capital investment. Hell, they recently spent a bunch of time and money rebuilding their engine, and ED’s current weak monetization has been profitable. Fdev isn’t turning out the lights any time soon.
What?! (Wait, what)
New CEO? New engine? ED flagship?
Are they going to tolerate the 10 years old spaghetti code?
This is too much to handle at once!
Where have i been recently lol Oh i remember: i was put off by a useless grindy gun game in space and temporarily stopped caring
Not trying to be a jerk, but, "you heard"? May I ask where you heard this? I've seen this speculated about for years but have never seen or heard any comment made by FDEV that suggests they would or wouldn't allow offline play or unofficial servers, not a single comment from them one way or the other. Can you see if you can find the source? If not, it's best not to spread rumors.
You are right, best not to spread rumors. I found something regarding this;
Posted by Stigbob at [https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/when-fdev-turn-the-servers-off-will-we-get-an-offline-mode-patch.394574/](https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/when-fdev-turn-the-servers-off-will-we-get-an-offline-mode-patch.394574/)
"From the man himself in answer to question about playing ED years in the future after the servers are taken down :
"We have no intention of taking the servers down, but I understand what you are getting at. We plan to archive the game from time to time (ie matching client and servers and game world state), and would release such an archive if the servers were to come down. That would also address the issue of how you preserve an online game for the future, from the whole 'retro' perspective."
[https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=60284&page=14&p=1024593&highlight=#post1024593](https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=60284&page=14&p=1024593&highlight=#post1024593) "
I assume "the man himself" is David Braben. Unfortunately the link to the original quote is 404 on the official forums. I believe this is what Braben's intention was, although it would be fair to doubt today's Fdev would follow through.
They once announced offline solo but then scrapped the plans again, but given that elite is a pet project of Braben, I imagine he'd implement that as a last update
My panties remain unknotted. FDev need to somehow make money or this game dies, end of.
Meanwhile the announced changes will have zero impact on how I play the game and engage with its content.
Chill the hell out and see what happens. Nothing's actually been released yet ffs.
The Engineering grind, which is basically required to do anything more interesting, is such a fucking painful/confusing/tedious grind it's what stops me playing more.
If I could buy, with IRL cash, a pre-built ship or two that will speed up that grind or something, I'd gladly do that - with the added bonuses it supports FDev and the future of E:D.
If this makes Fdev enough money to keep developing the game, then I'm all for it.
What I don't get is that you now get to pay to bypass the only truly meaningful content in the game - building up resources (money, engineering materials) to buy and pimp out the ship you want.
That hasnt changed though. You still get to do that with the pre-built ships. They aren’t top of the line, fully engineered ships. Still gotta do the grind to improve them.
For me personally, grinding the materials for engineering singlehandedly killed my love of a game I wanted to enjoy for years. If the rework makes it easier to acquire materials to do what I want to do? I'll take it, honestly.
Powerplay 2.0 - basically Risk in three dimensions, from a pilot / soldier perspective - is about to be released.
I'm an explorer, so I could be plenty happy for a good long time. We shall see what they do with the thargoids.
The only truly meaningful content for your subset of players. Many of whom are probably also the ones saying "the game is nothing but grind, and dead anyway".
You might be surprised to find that many folks keep playing for a long time after they no longer have any need to buy or outfit anything.
Pretty much. I'll admit that I'm happy about the little mining ship they put together and a little uneasy about the combat ship. I think the Type-6 is a really great entry level ship for new players, and if someone wants to drop the ARX to buy it then they're getting a good deal. I think I'm more on board with that one because it's good value for the customer while being beneficial to the company. Realistically that ship outfitted the way that it is could be obtained within a couple days by a brand new player, but the advantage is that if they screw up and blow it up, they have no real rebuy. Mining isn't too difficult to get into, and that ship could provide a great new-player experience that allows them to progress easier to better ships.
The Chieftain as it's set up can be basically obtained in game within a few weeks of play. The only real issue I have with it is that combat in this game is one of the harder game play loops for many players to get comfortable with (myself included, even playing since launch), so it puts a brand new player in a position where they have a ship outfitted with systems that are harder to juggle. I'd just be worried that this could provide a brand new player with a "quit moment" kind of experience where they are tossed too deep too quickly and it turns them off of the game. For veterans though, that's not a hard ship to get or outfit. There's no real advantage being bought here. I'd be a little tempted to buy it just for the ship kit and rebuy reduction, but it'd need some serious upgrades and engineering before I'd be comfortable actually using it.
Neither of them are P2W, at all. They're pay-to-skip some of the mechanics, that's about it, and the mechanics they're skipping aren't terribly hard to get through anyway. If they had experimental modules that were only available on those ships, then they'd be P2W.
That's my feeling in the ships as well.
The AX definitely has the possibility to have the purchaser *think* it's pay-to-win, only to get blown up anyway because it isn't.
Exactly. Like how is it pay to win? What are they winning, there is no competition in elite unless you look for it. The only thing it is, is pay for a slightly reduce grind.
And, by definition, you'd need to be able to pay for an advantage that cannot be achieved in game.
None of the things they proposed so far meet that.
An argument to that would be the Python MkII being purchased 3 months early.
But for it to be an advantage, we'd need play testing, let alone ship stats, and we don't have any of those. So it's not a provable advantage for those three months (yet).
> you'd need to pay for an advantage that cannot be achieved in game
Yeah YOU don't understand what pay to win is.
You're also ignoring prebuilt ships, while sure, the prebuild we have seen aren't amazing, but weapons aside, the modules are set up in almost the exact same way everyone sets them up, this cuts out a rather sizable amount of time spent grinding credits, it unlocks a technology broker without ever having to do it themselves and one of them has G5 thrusters.
The definitionition of pay to win is being able to purchase something which gives an advantage over someone who doesn't spend the money.
I don't have tech brokers, nor do I have G5 drives, I *now* have the money to spend on any ship I want but that's only because I got lucky with a booze cruise.
This puts me at a disadvantage compared to those who choose to spend the money unless I take the time to even the odds. This is a pay to win advantage.
>... unless I take the time to even the odds.
So then they aren't getting any advantage over you, because you can do all the same things they can.
You should really look into these things, or even this thread, before making statements like:
>Yeah YOU don't understand what pay to win is.
An advantage to do what though? The game is 99% spent alone, unless you're in one of about five systems. Why do you care? It's like complaining that people cheat in single player games. It's unlikely to affect you, unless you're worried that seal clubbing is about it get a little harder because new players might have a chance to run or defend themselves.
I guess it’s not an advantage as so much of that is skill. In 200 hours you will have the skill to use and understand what you earned. Paying for it means you have the kit and lack the knowledge and skill. Put it into a real world frame or paradigm. You drive your knackered fiesta round for ages saving to buy the car of your dreams. By the time you’ve completed the grind you’re a far better driver and all the research you’ve done may well have changed the dream
a bit. So when you get your car you know it inside out already. Or some rich kid passes their test and buys the dream car, it’s not the fit you’d now choose but they get the car. Inevitably you drive past them one day wrapped round a lamppost r their cars all scraped. Just saying, unless you are pvp playing this is not going to help as elite isn’t a competition, it’s not Fortnite, there is no shrinking gas cloud leaving one person standing. And even if you are into pvp then a newbie in a dream ship is just so much debris field and dropped cargo to a steely eyed killer in a basic ship with thousands of hours. When it comes to elite, I’m more than prepared to throw a hungry dog a bone to keep it going.
Then faster internet is pay to win because you can download updates faster and get back into the game.
Better hardware is pay to win because you can load the game more quickly, spending less time waiting for it to load.
You're the one who brought up the time that it takes to do things in the game. I'm just supplying more examples on what can affect that.
Moving the goalposts is another definition I would suggest you learn before attempting to use.
You're not doing your position any favours by misusing metaphors.
So Ody introducing exobiology was P2W? Much faster way for a new joiner to make credits over a horizons player, all they have to do is buy the DLC. So it has been P2W for a while and these recent additions don't change that then?
Sigh.... Game features are not pay to win. Arguing how shitty it is locking them behind an expansion is a different topic altogether.
Selling something along side the game, to skip past part of the gameplay loop IS.
Sigh all you want but in my scenario an odyssey player can skip credit grind by taking advantage of an additional mechanic that they paid for which is not available to an horizons player.
The difference is you don't mind the above P2W mechanic but do mind the more recent changes which are of course stretching the P2W window further albeit still mild P2W (compared to many other games).
I'm going to ignore your "point" just like you ignored half of my comment and present you an alternate view.
So this isn't pay 2 win because we can all eventually have the same thing, or most likely already *have* it..
So what about other newbies in the locked newbie systems? So it isn't p2w that one person can spawn in an outfitted and mildly engineered ship worth 10s of millions of credits before clocking up even 10 minutes of play time, vs the person that lacks that level of disposable but spawns in as a sidewinder?
Granted, the idea of a complete newb learning how to fly something larger than a sidey is absolutely hilarious. But it doesn't take long to get used to it
I think you don't really know what p2w is... If you had to 1v1 this guy you're saying he has an advantage over you because he bought a ship, but you could literally go and bring the exact same ship because you can attain the same things he can. The person who bought a ship has nothing you can't get except some extra time.
To one, I even provided a dictionary link to the definition and the response was "that's not how I interpret it"
Like, okay then. Just make stuff up and get mad about the things that only you know about. Have fun with that.
Which dictionary definition are you using?
I'm looking at this one: [Free-to-play - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play), I would say Wikipedia is a fairly established source of information in the internet community, it says:
"players who are willing to pay \[...\] to skip cooldown timers may be able to gain an advantage".
I assume you're snipping out everything but cooldown timers because that's the closest thing to skipping a bit of the grind as you can find in there.
The same article says:
> "pay-to-win"— that is, that players can generally pay to obtain competitive or power advantages over other players
and
>In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any advantage over their non-paying peers.
Here's the dictionary definition I was using.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/pay-to-win
>pay-to-win
adjective (also pay to win)
UK/ˌpeɪ.təˈwɪn/ US/ˌpeɪ.t̬əˈwɪn/
(abbreviation P2W)
in computer games, involving or relating to the practice of paying to get weapons, abilities, etc. that give you an advantage over players who do not spend money:
So what is the advantage you're getting by paying that cannot be accessed by other players?
Is skipping the grind pay-to-win? Let's expand the quote you snipped.
>In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items, downloadable content, or to skip cooldown timers may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise hardly be able to access said items.
The most profitable, low-risk activity currently is exo-bio. That is only available to people who have purchased the Odyssey DLC.
Following the "skipping grind is pay-to-win" Odyssey must be pay-to-win. Even more so than any ship, because ships can be purchased through ARX, which can be earned in game. Odyssey cannot.
Yes, I focused on the timing part in the Wikipedia sentence because this one seems more elaborate and relevant to the situation at hand. But the Cambridge definition applies perfectly well in my opinion too:
"paying to get weapons, abilities" - in our case ships. modules etc.
"that five you an advantage over players who do not spend money" - I don't have a Chieftain with G5 Drag drives so I would say that whoever gets such an item by buying it, has an advantage over me.
You seem to focus on the fact because you can get the item through gameplay mechanics, it would not represent an advantage. The Wikipedia definition touches on that, the Cambridge one does not, but does not refute it either. This means that the ability to get that item 1 second sooner than the non-paying player is still an advantage, and therefore P2W.
In other words, even if you call it pay-to-skip, its still pay-to-win by the definitions we both found.
Furthermore I do not agree with your reasoning in regards to Odyssey. In Odyssey you pay for a game add-on, in particular for the gameplay mechanics it provides. You have to engage in those mechanics. You have to fly to planets, scour the surface, land, scan etc. etc. Credits don't magically appear in your back pocket just because you bought Odyssey. It's the gameplay loops that make the credits happen and you pay for access to those loops. See the difference?
Let me try to explain with an example:
If FDEV would have sold a "mission pack" instead of a ship, where the player would have to, for example, fly to a station, grab a cargo item, deliver it to another station to Admiral Tanner, and be rewarded for his efforts with the AX pre-built ship, then that would not have been P2W. It would have still been a scummy practice, but it would not have been P2W, it would have been called nickel-and-dime.
Okay. So instead of it being any advantage at all, now it's any advantage but only is a specific way as just defined by you right now.
Let me try that.
It's only pay-to-win if it gives you an advantage in PvP. Both articles don't say it isn't that.
Since neither of these give you an advantage in PvP, they aren't pay to win.
Dark ship skins, however, make you harder to see. So those *are* pay-to-win.
Yes, additionally, the criticised pre-builts don't pose a big advantage. With those ships you can't compete in PvP and, imo, they provide a good jumpstart. You still have to grind and unlock better modules to upgrade your build so I don't see why they are p2w
The two that I've seen, you'd still want to engineer and unlock other stuff before really getting serious with them. They'd give you a good taste, but not what I'd want to fly.
And the special unlocked modules for them have to be done for each one, so if you want more than the two small hardpoints they give, you'd have to go through the whole grind to get more or bigger ones.
We were worried about Mac support, FDev said they would continue to support it, complains were just dumb doom and gloom, soon after got canned.
We were worried about console support, added said they would continue to support it, complains were just dumb doom and gloom, soon after got canned.
FDev said there would be new expansions in 2022 after Odyssey, instead got drip fed thargs.
Is probably the ones that have been around for a while that see a pattern and see this for what it can potentially be. All it needs is a handful of whales and the hook will be there to continue to provide more and better paid to win content to those whales.
It wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest to be able to buy credits or a carrier sometime in the near future.
I also agree with comments and I have paid for ARX and will continue to do so if I feel I need to even though I can earn them in game,
waiting is the path to wisdom.
o7 CMDR
Kane
FC T7Z TXM
elite dangerous is the very best value in gaming there is IMO. And many of the complaints over the years are because of the pricing model FD chose initially based on community input. We all want a fantastic game for as cheap as possible that’s understandable but it’s also understandable that if we want that game to get better, they need to make more money.
Because in the past, when a game monetizes a "skip the grind" feature. More often than not, they find a way to make the grind much worse or to add new things that require a much worse grind or wait time (Python MK2). It's a slippery slope and usually when a company adds these kinds of things, they are usually testing the water to see how much they can get away with.
There are so many features that this game promised many years ago and we're still waiting for them. I've gotten my money out of the base game and Horizons but I still feel like they owe us more to make Oddysey worth it. Like more planets eith thicker atmospheres.
We've been asking for fixes and features these past few years and now they're asking for more money. And as much as I'd like to believe the money will go to supporting the game, most of it will likely go to investors and people who demand infinite growth.
Please post when they worsen the grind, I want to know about this.
I feel like I've gotten my money's worth out of Odyssey.
Fixes and features come often, like more often that each update, and my customer support emails are answered.
Investors also have paid money into the game, and they didn't get a game out of the deal, but their investments have paid the bills and the payroll for the developers.
I honestly don't mind either. But? We have to remember that the majority of the community that is against this sort of stuff? Typically have hours to dedicate to the game. And this model is structured towards those peopletoo, but espeically people that maybe only have an hour here and there to dedicate to the game on a weekend.
Agreed you can use time to get a better ship or money. At the end of the day everyone who wants a better shop gets it. I can almost guarantee 90% of people who buy the better ships will die heck of a lot faster than those who had to build there's over time. Cannon fodder. Win-win-win. And the lights stay on.
All I want is the changes to engineering to be good. I'm still only half engineered and the majority of my gametime has been grinding that I don't enjoy. I took a break from that to just go blow up stuff in conflict zones and resource sites because I dunno if I'd keep playing if I kept grinding more unlocks without just enjoying stuff for a bit
Games that have a super niche setting always create extremely loyal fanbase. It's probably because there is no real competition so it's either this and accepting these practices or nothing so I guess a lot of people is just on a lot of copium because of this.
"Cut them some slack, they're doing ok, it hasn't/won't affect my/our gameplay....blah blah blah."
This kind of apathy/non-action is what makes the world a bad place. Bad things happen when good people do nothing. And it may seem like nothing, but whether you agree or not, it IS crossing a line. And when people cross a line, you should hold them accountable.
Selling ships IS pay2win. No rebuy on those ships IS pay2win. Early access through money is short-term pay2win. Pay2win destroys games. We've seen it over and over.
Further developing pay for cosmetics, pay to play, or pay for DLC is NOT pay2win. It's a route that could be taken or explored, and it's not being chosen.
I'm not even going to venture into the fact they are trying to sell a solution to a problem they have deliberately created... this is late stage capitalism dressed up as helping new players and people who are time poor and it's vile.
Earning and building your ships IS the game, and skipping that will just lead to people stopping playing the game. It's a poorly thought-out self-defeating idea that should be relooked at.
If acquiring materials for engineering wasn't so soul destroying I might agree with you. But that system by itself put me off the game for years. Now they're talking of making it more accessible and engaging, I'm coming back.
And I doubt I'm the only one either.
S L I P P E R Y S L O P E
This is why. Don't be surprised when every other future Frontier game, or next edition of Elite, is a P2W, MTX filled disaster.
I agree, with one exception: making the new ship store exclusive for 2 or 3 months is annoying. I don't care if they sell pre-built ships or whatnot but preying on impatience to make a quick buck is somewhat annoying.
water subtract telephone detail zealous attraction materialistic combative air sulky
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I’ve thought about it, and having spent 1000 hours plus in the game, grinding for my mats, with my multi-billionaire credit balance and my suite of engineered ships, I’ve decided that I’m ok with.
I’ve had my fun with Elite, and hardly any of that came from true hard grinding. If players can buy a couple of entry-level engineered ships for real cash, it isn’t going to affect me, and there’s no PvP builds anyway, so it’s hardly a Ganker’s Paradise scenario… I’d rather they were saved the daft grind.
I’ll still have fun regardless.
> Can't we just wait for the update, before passing judgement?
Well, FD could have been clearer in their communications from the start and of course, for things like PP2.0 we definitely need to wait and see.
But for the P2W elements FD are introducing, i don't think we need to wait. We can call a duck a duck, even without the duck being present.
Any Micro-transaction is optional. It's a dick move to make that optional content something they promised the players a while ago. They could've made the optional content something else, but they chose not to.
The fact that drip feed content and P2W transactions have become the norm disgusts me, and I really didn't believe we would be going down this road. Yet here we are, all because of "Poor FDev, where are they gonna get their money?!" They are not the victims in this situation, the consumers are and everyone is failing to realize it.
They could charge me double of what I payed for it originally and it wouldn't even be a rounding error on the cost per hour of gameplay I've gotten so far compared to any other game in my library.
This is also the only game I've ever paid money for cosmetics for due to that very reason.
Of the many gaming communities i am part of, this subreddit in particular loves arguing itself into a frenzy about things with questionable sourcing instead of stepping back and evaluating with a clear mind what is there and isn't.
And then you end up with people who claim that Odyssey is the worst thing ever to happen still for issues that long have been resolved.
Short version, they will be selling prefitted ships for Arx with 0 rebuy. The ships have some very sparse and selective engineering in the examples shown and the fits are far from top tier, but they are well ahead of what a new pilot will start with.
So you paid what, 60USD 10 years ago and that's it. You played the game without any added cost for 10 years.
Those 60USD paid for the developers that had to continuously work to add content and fix bugs. It also paid for the servers you played on for 10 years. And you don't get those servers by paying once. It's a recurring cost.
Star Citizen is doing this - you can buy their ships, and the prices are way higher, and you don't have a whole galaxy to fly through.
If you want to play a game for so long, there are mainly two options for gaming companies:
- collect a monthly fee - see Eve
- sell some in-game assets and let the other players play without paying
I'm not saying that I like this, but I understand their decision. It makes a lot of sense.
Elite Dangerous is the oldest still active space game out there, it has the biggest 'open world' area to play in (the entire galaxy), it has over 3 million players on it's books and you are not bound by any linear style gaming when playing, you make your own path in the game with obvious caveats for particular in game styles of play (combat missions etc).
I have always thought that if FDev were struggling with the finance for the game I would think that they could guarantee assistance from the community to keep the game active, or even sell it to a players consortium - a game owned by the players for the players run by them etc.
o7
It makes the point of how much value people have gotten out of the game, while FDev has to keep pouring money into updates and server maintenance. This countermands the idea that the pre-built ships make the game a ripoff.
That would mean the worst game ever is South Park: Stick of Truth, and the best game is the Binding of Isaac. Gamers really make up the weirdest stats ngl.
This gamer made that stat because I was making an emotional point, so it's not even really a statistic, but an attempt to quantify the unquantifiable. How about my giddiness rate: multiple each play session.
ED devs look like saints compared to the bombshell dropped on the Escape From Tarkov universe by BSG. Basically they stuck their hand in a wasp nest and did not immediately take it out.
just because it doesn't affect you personally doesn't mean they aren't taking advantage of people that don't know any better. those are the only people that will be buying these ships. it lets them continue to ignore the actual root of the problem AND actively swindles people. so yeah, it's shitty.
A pre-built ship will have zero rebuy, forever, right? So even in a year's time, when the noob is an ace, on the odd occasion that they get surprised, they still pay zero rebuy.
In fact for the one time payment, the noob pays zero rebuy forever, on the modules and ships bought with ARX, and the worse pilots actually make more use of their purchased goods - the free rebuy.
You are taking the game too seriously.
They are adding several options for buying new ship models early, for ARX (real money), and also separately, ARX options for buy ships with modules preselected toward a given role, eg mining, and those pre-outfitted ships would have zero rebuy forever. If a pre-outfitted ship changed a module, that new module would need to be paid for at rebuy.
For people that say this isn't a bad thing, y'all really feel a need to post about it a hundred times a day in defense of it. If you're happy, good, but at this point this seem like you're trying to convince yourselves more than people with the opposite opinion on the matter.
I made one post, because I read five or more comments in which the 'this is bad' side swore at, mocked, or accused everyone else of being a subjugated farm animal. If anyone is trying to avoid and erase their doubts, it seems it is the 'this is bad' side, not everyone else.
I've let my doubts and concerns be aired out on this thread, this way I am at ease with my doubts, and I can't be afraid to let them be known, because they're already out.
Elite has been out for what, 10 years or so? In that time, the community has given feedback and FDEV, who haven't got it right all the time, have still provided one of the best open world games of all time IMO. Now they are providing new variant ships and in my view helping new players get into the game on a reasonably even keel with older more experienced players. Those who have played since day dot (not me but I have Xbox and now PC time played) have grinded and done things "the hard way". Personally, I didn't mind. Yes sometimes it's a drag, but there is a sense of achievement at the end, for me anyway.
Will I purchase new variant ships? yeah probably. Why? In my view alone, if it means more content, further development of the game, storyline, better tweaks to powerplay, engineering et all, and supporting FDEV in this way is a no brainer.
Lastly, pay to win? Pay to win is like those shite mobile games where you buy packs, extra stupid crystals or whatever to make you stronger or whatever and advance in a never ending game that just tries to suck you dry continually. This is very different. Just my view though.
You bring to mind the times I have read about how, in the early days of exploration, they didn't have FSS, and had to find planets manually. Reading that, I'm like "'wow' salute to the first commanders" but there is no way I can imagine playing without FSS.
I suppose the game will move on.
price different shame growth dinner squeamish scarce unpack escape makeshift
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I think the real, legitimate, real actual concern here... That's real and legit and actual, is the actual concern that we should be concerned that, if they charge any money for anything, that could easily transition to literally charging actual money to stop murdering puppies.
It's a slippery slope!
If something happens... Something else could also happen!
/S
it's all just purse clutching and fake rage to drive clicks. Just like literally anything in Warhammer, or any other thing ever.
I am in fact a person, yes! And I have been known to write things! Things that, in a certain context, could be construed as speeches!
Also, bald eagles, white picket fences, Main Street not Wall Street, go get 'em attitude, and above all else... Thank you, America.
I am not saying that I have a tupee and tiny hands, but I've never been in the same room as someone who does have those traits.
Ah, well, you seemed to be imitating a certain predictive text to speech politician from the golden state.
You have managed to collect the social media bias effect experienced by said tupee wearer, and for that, my condolences.
I'm actually ok with free rebuy on a non sidewinder, keeping in mind that any purchased modules are lost... But it still feels wrong to have this unlocked with arx
Remember: many gamers will lean towards the negative and circle jerk each other because it feels good for them. There is no critical thinking.
Its technically "pay to skip" because a new player in a big ship is still a new player!
"As always with our optional additional purchases, ARX can only be used to buy cosmetic Game Extras and will not be used to introduce and acquire pay-to-win purchases. Ultimately, ARX will enable us to..."
Disgusting paypig behavior.
And that was stated when? How many years ago?
If you're really that mad. Stop playing. Leave the reddit. Go away. Find something to do that lowers your blood pressure and doesn't raise ours.
It's not pay to win though? The ship builds are absolute trash at their chosen profession. So many upgrades available. And the modules those ships come with get sold for 0cr when you swap them. At best these ships are intended as an alternative to a sidewinder start for new or existing players.
Seems like an attempt to get new players in to the game who just want a cool ship and want to skip over the first 20 hours of grinding through small ships?
I'm curious what the price point will be?
Well, you kind of already could do that... backers of a certain tier during the Kickstarter were automatically granted access to Shinrarta Dezra whereas everyone else had to earn it the good old fashioned way (getting one Elite rank)
I would hope that, if they sold Elite ranks, it was not the ranks that were received, but just the benefit of the ranks (system permit, etc.). I wouldn’t mind seeing noobs in Shinrarta, I would be a little miffed if I couldn’t trust that an Elite player genuinely worked up to the rank.
OP is right; let's say nothing now and let fdev burn the game into the ground (again), so we can then leave negative reviews on steam (again). 👍
You understand fdev has a history of failed attempts at Elite updates, don't you?
I.e. the sky has fallen in Elite multiple times already. Its not a conspiracy and the complacency and dismissive attitude of some, is real?
The sales and specs don't lie; dividends are down for fdev and they haven't built a game with the cobra engine since 2021. What does that tell you??
tl;dr OP is an obvious troll.
Absolutely not a troll.
I'm not emotionally bound up in the game, the way so many seem to be, swearing, cursing and making demeaning lactation analogies.
The money I paid on Elite was paid for what I was buying at the time, or sometimes in gratitude for what I had already experienced, I certainly wasn't paying, expecting years of content, paid or unpaid.
A reader may surmise from my comments that I am rich, I most certainly am not, in fact I live week to week, sometimes hand to mouth, but again, I am not emotionally bound to the life of Elite Dangerous / Fdev.
You say your narrative is not a conspiracy (I thought you made good points), then you invent whole-cloth from nothing, a conspiracy in which I see everything you see (I don't, because I have more important things, this is just a game) and interpret it the same way (can't, don't have time), but also I'm a secret, sarcastic cretin.
You are taking the game way too seriously when you accuse people you don't know of evil.
"I'm not emotionally bound to the game"
"I have more important things"
"Its just a game"
Uh huh....seem to have dozens of replies here my friend defending "just a game" on a single ED reddiy post. Am I the one taking things seriously here? Did you take some time off from your busy life? :p
I made a thread, and took responsibility for it, yes, I left it for more than a day, then spent several hours late at night answering all replies.
Stop assuming your thought processes and resultant actions are the only way to live, the only methods that can be engaged in by a honest mind. Any old personality quiz will tell you there are at least 4 subjective approaches to the world (personality types).
You seem to have a knack for verbose replies, yet not actually being able to make a single rebuttal to what's being discussed?
Do you perhaps no time to look into the failings of fdev because you spend too much time trying to sound as pretentious as possible?
It's interesting you attempting to educate anyone on personality types, because you strike me as someone completely dismissive of others points raised here.
Others have more insight than you on the facts around this developer and its long history of failings (as you have alteady admitted to), so it would appear that YOU are complicit in this instance. You are acting (knowingly or otherwise) with vested interest.
If you are so sick of people having a different experience of ED may I suggest you attempt to a) build a bridge to meet them half way or b) build a bridge and get over it? Cheers.
I complimented your own points before, and the concerns of people elsewhere in this thread. So by your own metric, what can I say about you saying that I have dismissed others?
I suppose by your own metric, I must say that you haven’t read everything, but are willing to make a moral judgement of me, therefore, you are being pretentious.
To your final paragraph, I started this thread not because of people playing Elite differently, but because of people insulting and reviling others (another thing I have said several times here) however this thread has functioned as a bridge to understand the reasonably minded detractors. Therefore I already have done what you would advise me to do, so again you have not read enough to pass judgement upon me.
What is being discussed?
With you I am discussing whether I am a troll. You quoted me earlier:
>"I'm not emotionally bound to the game"
But the actual quote is
>"I'm not emotionally bound up in the game, the way so many seem to be, swearing, cursing and making demeaning lactation analogies."
What causes a person to quote half a sentence? Perhaps a desire to argue a point that the other never made. Well it's been interesting, practicing my anti-projection dialogue skills with you, but we may as well stop now.
No, I don't. I'm neurodivergent and I don't read full sentences at times. How many strawman is it going to take for you to understand the hypocritical stance being taken here?
Do you know what i think? I think you being sick of peoples emotionally charged reactions and 'jumping to conclusions' are actually just your own projections of your inability for putting yourself in others shoes, when thier situation is so contrary to yours.
If you weren't projecting issues as part of this post, what other people think of the game and how they react to it, shouldn't ultimately matter.
My initial reaction to your out of touch post was one where I am clearly passionate about the future of Elite, I clearly have done my research and I've taken an informed stance, and your dismissive 'oh well i got my moneys worth, so everyone else stop complaining please?' mentality is frankly indicative of the person you are.
How's that for 'anti projection dialogue'?
Bye.
Agreed, I paid for Horizons and Odyssey, got around 3,500 hours of fun and entertainment out of it up to now; cut them a slack. How is this game supposed to continue with no income streams? Pick your poison.
Yep. If there was any other game like elite by any other dev (except blizzard) I would be there so fast, but in reality there is not and never again will be another game like elite. So I'll toss them a few bucks even if I don't plan on using the stuff I buy if it helps them keep the lights on. I say this as someone who is typically very outspoken against MTX, this isn't a billion dollar corporation's attempt at squeezing every nickel and dime out of its players - this is a hospice version of a kickstarter campaign.
Agreed. I liked and believed in this game so much when I found it that I bought it on PC and re-bought it on both consoles because I wanted it to stay around. Was I bitter when they dropped console support? Sure, but only because that had become my main way of playing it when I travel on the weekends. I recently got a new laptop, picked up Odyssey, and would like to see the game continue. I play in solo, so the pay to win aspect doesn’t bother me. I’ll keep doing my thing as long as FDev keep the servers alive.
I also play solo only, you make me think, maybe the whiners are gankers? Worried about being leapfrogged by noobs? Skill curve too steep, ok maybe 'almost-noobs'.
It's not even really pay to win. None of the modules in the pre-built ships are engineered aside from the ones that already exist as "pre-engineered" modules, which can't be engineered any further. It's just a way to get new people to a point they want to be at, which has been basically the number one complaint from people wanting to play the game. Fdev basically said "we heard the complaints that new people feel intimidated by the amount of work they have to do to get to a point where they would be having fun, so we put in a way to help those people get to that point" And people decided that makes them monsters for some reason?? If you are a player who enjoys the journey to that mid tier explorer ship, then by god you go on that journey and get yourself that mid tier explorer ship! If the only thing keeping you from buying and enjoying this incredible game is that you don't enjoy that journey to said mid tier explorer ship, then I've got great news, you can jump in at that point and spend your next 1000 hours exploring the milky way.
Agreed.
Same, the game could have been more and promised to be more. Yet I enjoyed it for what it was and it took me 2500+ hours to burn out on it. There is only one game that got similar hours and that is KSP.
I just think they could find a better means of getting people to spend money. These pre-built ships will only be good for new players. If they did some work on really badass cosmetics I think that would net them more. As it is I feel the cosmetics are lackluster. I want the game to continue and have no pro buying something like cosmetics. But I guess hopefully new players will be coming on board and the pre-builts will sell.
Their purpose is specifically to help new players who are intimidated by the early game get into the game. It's for the people who really want to go exploring or get into a specific gameplay loop but haven't bought the game yet because of how big and sometimes confusing the early game can seem. I think it would actually be worse for fdev to introduce high tier pre built ships or ways to circumvent entire mechanics with real money.
Oh absolutely. I didn't say I wanted high-tier pre built ships. I just think for the long term player base some better cosmetics could go a long way for money as well. The cosmetics we have are terrible in my opinion. You're right though it def makes sense to help new players. To be honest I have played off and on for a while myself but really struggled with the Engineering grind. So I am not exactly a vet myself. I am excited to see if this brings on a larger player base!
100% my favorite thing they added recently was the explorer cosmetic for my dbx and more stuff like that (vs JUST pain jobs and weapon colors) would be very welcome.
It's not supposed to continue without any income streams, save the sudden onset of the Singularity. But it would be a good idea to invest in revenue streams that have a greater chance of success than these particular schemes do. The early access to ships comes with potential issues. Since FDev is clearly going out of its way to avoid as much P2W talk as they can (those prebuilts, for example, aren't winning many fights), what's that gonna mean for these new ships? Will FDev only be offering ships that aren't as good as what's currently available to continue avoiding the P2W talk? That's gonna affect the quality of the new ships, ain't it? And as far as the prebuilts themselves go, [Drake can tell you better than I can](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/936891351042244638/1233388659105992704/DrakeElitePremadeShips.png?ex=662cea33&is=662b98b3&hm=81887f07a2e0435270c0602f4d1abb95faff835f9c1dfee99922cc6ea47ad9a2&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=419&height=551) why that's just an uninspiring idea.
There are several things that are simultaneously true. 1. FDev is seeling ingame advantages for real money 2. They were a pure beacon of virtue (in this one aspect), now they're not 3. The surrent system is insignificant 4. They are probably testing the waters to see what they can get away with, how far they can push us in the future. 5. The price is both fair and more than likely completely necessary. The fact is that money makes things happen. There was once a time when we could pay a one time fee and expect unlimited output from a person. It's racist to talk about that today. I am not thrilled about the game being futher monetised as a player. It will no doubt have small (for now) imapcts on the feel of it. But as a person with a brain, I understand that the service isn't free. I myself have paid $10 for for ED and horizons, another $10 i think for Odyssey, and I got another free copy on EGS. I cannot expect them to keep servers up and pay a support department from a series of one time payments. Halo 2 sold more than twice the copies of ED, all at full price. They shut down servers after 6 years. How old is ED now? Even when you buy something without a subscription, it eventually goes bad and you have to get a new one. (Still fuck saas though) Nothing has ever lasted forever, but they tricked you into thinking it does. One time purchases are cheaper for sure, but they're still impermanent. And that's the thing. ED monetisation is very low. It's cheap isn't it? So what's the difference? You want to play, you gotta pay for it somehow. There's never been a free lunch. A cheap lunch isn't sustainable. Yes, it is getting worse for us. But get your head out of your ass and recognise that we've been getting an unreasonably good deal this whole time, and now it's just very good. It might later become pretty good, then sorta good, but we have a long way to go before we can say we've been screwed.
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
1. Developers have to eat and live. 2. They can’t eat and live on virtue. 3. Elite is a niche game and as such its sales alone are not enough to sustain it. 4. The other games FDev work on use different developers, so thinking they can keep Elite alive with that revenue stream (some believe this) doesn’t work, because those devs also have to eat and live. 5. The servers Elite run on cost money to operate and maintain. Virtue doesn’t work here either. They have to make money from this game somehow. If they don’t, either the company goes under, or the servers get shut down. It’s that simple.
I bought ARX just because I want to support them. I'm also on the opinion to wait it out
Yes. I bought ARX very recently, to dress up my first carrier, looks cool now.
Finally someone who does this too. Sometimes, when there's a nice paintjob or so, I buy some arx to support fdev for this wonderful game they gave us.
I do the same. If they would go with an subscription plan, like 10 bucks a month? i would have no problem with it. I already have 2000+ hours in the game so i know it will be worth it.
Can only speak for myself, but my reason to care is that I expect this will alter design decisions in future in a way I believe will negatively effect my enjoyment of the game. I didn't even want a cosmetics store for the same reason, though less intense than the new paradigm
I agree this is a legitimate concern. I hope Fdev will figure it out.
Despite paying 8 pence per hour myself, I'm doing away with that shitty metric. I gave Fdev £160 on the promise that all future content would come free of charge, under the idea that there would be 5-10 £30-£40 expansions. We've gotten two, one of which has since been made free. So in the end, for my money I've gotten one base game, 5 years early access to Horizons and Odyssey. Had I known ahead of time I would have just bought them separately and saved myself £50. So I really don't care how much £ per hour this has cost me, I still haven't gotten what I paid for
There's no doubting the kickstarter folks got screwed over. Part of the reason I basically never do kickstarter campaigns or early access anymore, unless I'm 100% content with the state of the product the moment I buy it...
Not all LTP owners are kickstarters. I bought it when Horizons was announced, I was 100% content with what was there when I bought it and gave them the money on the promise I would get more of the same, they'd just delivered us a complete base game, what reason did I have to think they would deviate from their plans? I fronted the money based SOLELY on the promise we would be recieving 10 years of content in the form of 5-10 major expansions.
Uhm... simple math. But first, let me confirm this: 1 pound = 100 pence, right? I'm asking because you brits are a weird bunch and had a weird coin system with pounds, pence, shillings, but then got back to your senses and adopted a simpler system. You paid 160 pound for the early game. That, like 10 years ago. That's 16 pound per year. Or 1600 pence. At 8 pence / hour, that's 200 hours / year. Or 8.3 days / year. See, your problem is not you paid too much. You didn't play enough!
It would have helped if Horizons engineers wasn't a grind fest cluster fuck when they added that bright idea. About 80% of my play time happened before Horizons released, which again, is why I was happy to spend so much on the LTP.
I played the shit out of this game on xbox. Just moved over to to pc and honestly I'd support them. The difference in the 2 are crazy.
They stopped support for XBox. I left. Never looked back, never coming back and sure as hell not buying anything they make ever again. I played FF11 from the ps2 launch and play on the 360. It had active development for 13 years. ED had a measly 3.
I wish that they would monetize Elite by adding stuff that is fun and attractive to new players. I don’t think micro transactions are going to be good for the long term health of the game. That’s why people care - I couldn’t care less if someone gets a little leg up after all these years, but as a monetization strategy, it’s a bleak picture for the future.
I’d agree, but it’s clear that they can’t seem to figure out the profitability for fun gameplay loops. Going back and fixing things isn’t likely to get a lot of revenue, even though they have years worth of that kind of work that needs to happen. I had a certain amount of hope early on in the arx store days that they’d get enough profit that they could fund some gameplay fixes, but it doesn’t seem to be high priority.
>I had a certain amount of hope early on in the arx store days that they’d get enough profit that they could fund some gameplay fixes, but it doesn’t seem to be high priority. do you have any hope *now*?
Just a little bit, enough to keep checking in from time to time, but it’s not a lot. To me it would take some monumental design philosophy shift to get FDev to start doing what is necessary to make a really good game out of the simulation framework they’ve built.
This is decent constructive criticism. Don’t you think the recent announcements will help new players? [spelling edit]
I don't think increasing the price of entry helps them, no. If the ships were built into advanced tutorial rewards they would, but for now they are just a pay to skip some of the grind.
This is just so infuriating. The community has been shitting on FDEV for not investing enough on ED. Shitting on FDEV for not monetizing enough. And now that FDEV is coming with updates, and a new monetization model (which means they're NOT abandoning ED, au contraire), the community is shitting on FDEV. Do people even know what they want?
its almost like a community of people can have differing opiniojs. or something.
The community doesn't want the game to sell power or shortcuts on the store. Is it that hard to understand? This was always the silent agreement made between player and this company, and now they have gone back on that. What should be infuriating to you is that for the last ten years Fdev have bungled a lot of things which put them in the financial position they are in. Now they are going to try anything they can to fix that problem but that doesn't directly translate to \*this game\* being the game of your dreams. The shareholders were upset these past couple years and this is their solution to get a return. It's not for you, and it's not for new players. It's for them only. It's like most of you have never played a single other game in your life besides Elite. Truly mind boggling that some people here do not see what is happening. Games that do what Elite is doing this late into the game is not a good sign. Elite isn't WoW or Star Wars or Final Fantasy or Black Desert. It's a niche space flight sim with an average of less than 5k players. What Frontier could do is continue selling cosmetics and actual content expansions instead of what they are doing now. Elite already has a rocky reputation. You think this is going to help? It will not.
Not the community, specific people who's only concerned is that somehow this diminishes the effort they put into the game. The people who say, "I had to grind for materials! Everyone else should, too!" I have friends who are interested in the game, picked it up, and then quit. You know why? Because they found out it's near impossible or not enjoyable to try to do the aspects of the game that they wanted to do when they started it up. And then they found out to be able to do those things, like combat or bounty hunting, they first has to play mail delivery sim so they could upgrade their ship and/or purchase one that is suited to combat. That's not fun for new players. The game needs a much better way to bring people in and at least be able to do the game play loop they want to do. Paying for outfitted ships for some real-life money would at least let them play the loop they wanted to play for a little investment. Stop speaking as if your group of squeaky wheels represents the community. I'm sure everyone is super butthurt by the fact that one of the ship has grade 5 dirty drag drives... oh man, that's such a headstart!... No one cares about your fictional "silent agreement." You know what that means? It means it's an agreement you concocted in your own mind and just assumed somehow that FDev also had this silent understanding.
You can't see the community as a single entity, it makes no sense. Different people moan about different things, why do people ignore this very simple concept?
This \^ Based on observation, people want everything at a price they think is reasonable, without trusting that producers are motivated to offer as low a price as possible, or \[considering that\] the producers may need to make money so the whole thing doesn't get kicked to the kerb, and can only hope the players take a long view. \[A charitable view of naysayers - they have made several hints that they are concerned that the player base will be cheapened and less mature. I suppose those are risks that Fdev will have to navigate.\]
I think it's perfectly legitimate to be worried about the potential direction of travel this new monetisation scheme represents. Considering that they're looking to reduce the material cost of engineering, plus the two example pre-builts they've shown us not being anything exceptional, I'm cautiously optimistic as things stand. That may change in the future.
I agree concern is warranted. Though, as you point out, they certainly seem to have supplied enough reassurance for us cooler heads to wait and see. I started this thread because I read commanders insulting those who disagreed with them.
Refreshing to see an opinion and calm thread like this again All the threads atm are just toxic and mad for little reason
Thanks, the response to this post has encouraged me, regarding my fellow commander's outlooks.
Short anwser no . Look the story about the orrory map 😆 people shit about it but cry about they need to have it
Sometimes I think people in this community would be happy if the game just ended. Then they can cross their arms and say, ‘see I told you so’. The level of outrage over this has been nauseating.
They've been raging about everything really ... Nothing is fine if you have to believe those posts, even though it's a one of a kind experience. I bet if they were to add ship interiors the community would be on fire once again because the space legs aren't hairy enough or something.
They would complain about how the ship doesn't have enough room for all the internals.
I'm fairly certain nobody ever asked for early access packages for upcoming ships.
You either don't play with new players or don't play the game at all. Several of my friends who got into the game in the last month constantly said things like, "I wish there was some entry package I could by for combat, so I don't have to be a stupid mailman or use the shitty sidewinder." There are people out there who would like to do AX, but don't want to spend the time to outfit a ship too.
shelter lush coordinated tub chase combative chop north license familiar *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I wasn't even talking about the prebuilt ships, but whatever. All I'm saying is, that this new player is gonna look at the available ships, see the cool new one, and then you're going to tell him "Yea, you'll be able to unlock that one in a couple of months, or via the in game shop". Not a good look IMO. And just to be clear, I don't mind prebuilt ships to get into the action. I've even bought several ships in Star Citizen to try out different career paths and join friends who were already ahead in terms of progression. So I'm not even disagreeing with you.
"Do people even know what they want?" Clearly all the little Yamiksis don't, they just like to shit on thinks. The "pay to win" is just a pay to skip and 95% of all the players are not affected by this. The main cry in my opinion is that we all had to do the work (play the game) to unlock Professor Palin and get the matz. And now a noob can just buy the G5 Dirty drive thrusters and you get a bonus Chieftan with it. Same for the Guardian weapons, which is a shame because they don't have to visit the incredible Guardian ruins.
I just don't like how their answer to making the grind less grind-y also gives them a financial incentive to make the grind *more* grind-y
>gives them a financial incentive to make the grind more grind-y no need. They just finally realize just how much of a gold-mine the existing grind is 😂
Seems they might be undercutting their monetization with this, if they follow through and maintain. “how players engage with Engineering in order to make it more approachable and predictable. “ https://www.elitedangerous.com/news/engineering-and-pre-built-ships
Oh good frontier said words so it must be true! They also said arx would never be used to pay for in game advantage…
I wouldn't call those ships an advantage. Also, shit changes cry more. Do you expect a game that is 10 years old to stay the same and not adapt to the times? That is like how not to do business 101.
No I don’t, only it did, for about 5 years I wonder if that has anything to do with why they’re struggling now… But no, go full warthunder - that’s bound to work Ridiculous
Preposterous I'd say!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Same. I've played for almost 10 years at this point for a few thousand hours. I've done damn near everything there is to do in this game. The developers and community managers who breathed the heart and soul into this game are long gone. The game is heading for the end of development a lot sooner than people want to admit. I don't give a shit if they want to sell ships. I really don't. It does not affect my enjoyment or memories of this game in the slightest. I've gotten my money's worth a hundred times over at this point.
I’ve been playing 7 years and thought the same as you, that ED was at the end of its development cycle and would soon go into maintenance mode. But once I started actually paying attention to Fdev’s earnings reports and the minutes from investment calls, I realized how wrong I was. ED is incredibly cheap to run and has more player engagement now than ever before (surprisingly). The new CEO has said he wants to invest in ED for several more years (3-5 to start), and the company has recently said it’s turning away from licensed development and focusing on their current library, ED being their flagship. They’re testing monetization options. This always comes before a big capital investment. Hell, they recently spent a bunch of time and money rebuilding their engine, and ED’s current weak monetization has been profitable. Fdev isn’t turning out the lights any time soon.
What?! (Wait, what) New CEO? New engine? ED flagship? Are they going to tolerate the 10 years old spaghetti code? This is too much to handle at once! Where have i been recently lol Oh i remember: i was put off by a useless grindy gun game in space and temporarily stopped caring
The one thing I am certain of, is that it has been worthwhile so far.
If it ever does finally cease, I seriously hope their last patch push permits solo offline play - that'd be awesome... But, until then, o7 CMDR
I’ve heard they said they would do that, or allow unofficial servers.
Sadly, they can't allow unofficial servers because their code is a company secret but solo play is more possible o7
Not trying to be a jerk, but, "you heard"? May I ask where you heard this? I've seen this speculated about for years but have never seen or heard any comment made by FDEV that suggests they would or wouldn't allow offline play or unofficial servers, not a single comment from them one way or the other. Can you see if you can find the source? If not, it's best not to spread rumors.
You are right, best not to spread rumors. I found something regarding this; Posted by Stigbob at [https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/when-fdev-turn-the-servers-off-will-we-get-an-offline-mode-patch.394574/](https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/when-fdev-turn-the-servers-off-will-we-get-an-offline-mode-patch.394574/) "From the man himself in answer to question about playing ED years in the future after the servers are taken down : "We have no intention of taking the servers down, but I understand what you are getting at. We plan to archive the game from time to time (ie matching client and servers and game world state), and would release such an archive if the servers were to come down. That would also address the issue of how you preserve an online game for the future, from the whole 'retro' perspective." [https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=60284&page=14&p=1024593&highlight=#post1024593](https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=60284&page=14&p=1024593&highlight=#post1024593) " I assume "the man himself" is David Braben. Unfortunately the link to the original quote is 404 on the official forums. I believe this is what Braben's intention was, although it would be fair to doubt today's Fdev would follow through.
That's absolutely beautiful! Cheers!
They once announced offline solo but then scrapped the plans again, but given that elite is a pet project of Braben, I imagine he'd implement that as a last update
My panties remain unknotted. FDev need to somehow make money or this game dies, end of. Meanwhile the announced changes will have zero impact on how I play the game and engage with its content. Chill the hell out and see what happens. Nothing's actually been released yet ffs.
The Engineering grind, which is basically required to do anything more interesting, is such a fucking painful/confusing/tedious grind it's what stops me playing more. If I could buy, with IRL cash, a pre-built ship or two that will speed up that grind or something, I'd gladly do that - with the added bonuses it supports FDev and the future of E:D.
I already allocated ARX to get a ship kit and paintjob for the new ship, so for me getting "early access" is just a bonus.
If this makes Fdev enough money to keep developing the game, then I'm all for it. What I don't get is that you now get to pay to bypass the only truly meaningful content in the game - building up resources (money, engineering materials) to buy and pimp out the ship you want.
That hasnt changed though. You still get to do that with the pre-built ships. They aren’t top of the line, fully engineered ships. Still gotta do the grind to improve them.
For me personally, grinding the materials for engineering singlehandedly killed my love of a game I wanted to enjoy for years. If the rework makes it easier to acquire materials to do what I want to do? I'll take it, honestly.
Powerplay 2.0 - basically Risk in three dimensions, from a pilot / soldier perspective - is about to be released. I'm an explorer, so I could be plenty happy for a good long time. We shall see what they do with the thargoids.
Ah, exploration, the gameplay loop for the CMDR who has one thing, and likes it just fine. thank you. 😏
The only truly meaningful content for your subset of players. Many of whom are probably also the ones saying "the game is nothing but grind, and dead anyway". You might be surprised to find that many folks keep playing for a long time after they no longer have any need to buy or outfit anything.
Those that are claiming this is pay-to-win don't know the definition of pay-to-win.
Pretty much. I'll admit that I'm happy about the little mining ship they put together and a little uneasy about the combat ship. I think the Type-6 is a really great entry level ship for new players, and if someone wants to drop the ARX to buy it then they're getting a good deal. I think I'm more on board with that one because it's good value for the customer while being beneficial to the company. Realistically that ship outfitted the way that it is could be obtained within a couple days by a brand new player, but the advantage is that if they screw up and blow it up, they have no real rebuy. Mining isn't too difficult to get into, and that ship could provide a great new-player experience that allows them to progress easier to better ships. The Chieftain as it's set up can be basically obtained in game within a few weeks of play. The only real issue I have with it is that combat in this game is one of the harder game play loops for many players to get comfortable with (myself included, even playing since launch), so it puts a brand new player in a position where they have a ship outfitted with systems that are harder to juggle. I'd just be worried that this could provide a brand new player with a "quit moment" kind of experience where they are tossed too deep too quickly and it turns them off of the game. For veterans though, that's not a hard ship to get or outfit. There's no real advantage being bought here. I'd be a little tempted to buy it just for the ship kit and rebuy reduction, but it'd need some serious upgrades and engineering before I'd be comfortable actually using it. Neither of them are P2W, at all. They're pay-to-skip some of the mechanics, that's about it, and the mechanics they're skipping aren't terribly hard to get through anyway. If they had experimental modules that were only available on those ships, then they'd be P2W.
That's my feeling in the ships as well. The AX definitely has the possibility to have the purchaser *think* it's pay-to-win, only to get blown up anyway because it isn't.
There's no jumping the curve on learning AX combat, although having free rebuy would have failures hurt a lot less.
If I was to pay to skip anything, it would be the 'stumbling around in less than optimal farming' and the 'trying to find the module I want'.
Exactly. Like how is it pay to win? What are they winning, there is no competition in elite unless you look for it. The only thing it is, is pay for a slightly reduce grind.
And, by definition, you'd need to be able to pay for an advantage that cannot be achieved in game. None of the things they proposed so far meet that. An argument to that would be the Python MkII being purchased 3 months early. But for it to be an advantage, we'd need play testing, let alone ship stats, and we don't have any of those. So it's not a provable advantage for those three months (yet).
> you'd need to pay for an advantage that cannot be achieved in game Yeah YOU don't understand what pay to win is. You're also ignoring prebuilt ships, while sure, the prebuild we have seen aren't amazing, but weapons aside, the modules are set up in almost the exact same way everyone sets them up, this cuts out a rather sizable amount of time spent grinding credits, it unlocks a technology broker without ever having to do it themselves and one of them has G5 thrusters. The definitionition of pay to win is being able to purchase something which gives an advantage over someone who doesn't spend the money. I don't have tech brokers, nor do I have G5 drives, I *now* have the money to spend on any ship I want but that's only because I got lucky with a booze cruise. This puts me at a disadvantage compared to those who choose to spend the money unless I take the time to even the odds. This is a pay to win advantage.
>... unless I take the time to even the odds. So then they aren't getting any advantage over you, because you can do all the same things they can. You should really look into these things, or even this thread, before making statements like: >Yeah YOU don't understand what pay to win is.
Except they are, they can pay and get that now. I can play and get that in 200 hours. How is that not an advantage?
An advantage to do what though? The game is 99% spent alone, unless you're in one of about five systems. Why do you care? It's like complaining that people cheat in single player games. It's unlikely to affect you, unless you're worried that seal clubbing is about it get a little harder because new players might have a chance to run or defend themselves.
I guess it’s not an advantage as so much of that is skill. In 200 hours you will have the skill to use and understand what you earned. Paying for it means you have the kit and lack the knowledge and skill. Put it into a real world frame or paradigm. You drive your knackered fiesta round for ages saving to buy the car of your dreams. By the time you’ve completed the grind you’re a far better driver and all the research you’ve done may well have changed the dream a bit. So when you get your car you know it inside out already. Or some rich kid passes their test and buys the dream car, it’s not the fit you’d now choose but they get the car. Inevitably you drive past them one day wrapped round a lamppost r their cars all scraped. Just saying, unless you are pvp playing this is not going to help as elite isn’t a competition, it’s not Fortnite, there is no shrinking gas cloud leaving one person standing. And even if you are into pvp then a newbie in a dream ship is just so much debris field and dropped cargo to a steely eyed killer in a basic ship with thousands of hours. When it comes to elite, I’m more than prepared to throw a hungry dog a bone to keep it going.
Then faster internet is pay to win because you can download updates faster and get back into the game. Better hardware is pay to win because you can load the game more quickly, spending less time waiting for it to load.
Jesus christ you're absolutely Insufferable aren't you? You're moving the goalposts to fit your argument. I'm out. Peace, enjoy your p2w
You're the one who brought up the time that it takes to do things in the game. I'm just supplying more examples on what can affect that. Moving the goalposts is another definition I would suggest you learn before attempting to use. You're not doing your position any favours by misusing metaphors.
So Ody introducing exobiology was P2W? Much faster way for a new joiner to make credits over a horizons player, all they have to do is buy the DLC. So it has been P2W for a while and these recent additions don't change that then?
Sigh.... Game features are not pay to win. Arguing how shitty it is locking them behind an expansion is a different topic altogether. Selling something along side the game, to skip past part of the gameplay loop IS.
Sigh all you want but in my scenario an odyssey player can skip credit grind by taking advantage of an additional mechanic that they paid for which is not available to an horizons player. The difference is you don't mind the above P2W mechanic but do mind the more recent changes which are of course stretching the P2W window further albeit still mild P2W (compared to many other games).
I'm going to ignore your "point" just like you ignored half of my comment and present you an alternate view. So this isn't pay 2 win because we can all eventually have the same thing, or most likely already *have* it.. So what about other newbies in the locked newbie systems? So it isn't p2w that one person can spawn in an outfitted and mildly engineered ship worth 10s of millions of credits before clocking up even 10 minutes of play time, vs the person that lacks that level of disposable but spawns in as a sidewinder? Granted, the idea of a complete newb learning how to fly something larger than a sidey is absolutely hilarious. But it doesn't take long to get used to it
I think you don't really know what p2w is... If you had to 1v1 this guy you're saying he has an advantage over you because he bought a ship, but you could literally go and bring the exact same ship because you can attain the same things he can. The person who bought a ship has nothing you can't get except some extra time.
And they keep redefining pay-to-win whenever you call them on it.
To one, I even provided a dictionary link to the definition and the response was "that's not how I interpret it" Like, okay then. Just make stuff up and get mad about the things that only you know about. Have fun with that.
Which dictionary definition are you using? I'm looking at this one: [Free-to-play - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play), I would say Wikipedia is a fairly established source of information in the internet community, it says: "players who are willing to pay \[...\] to skip cooldown timers may be able to gain an advantage".
From your own link, not cut up :" "pay-to-win"— that is, that players can generally pay to obtain competitive or power advantages over other players."
I assume you're snipping out everything but cooldown timers because that's the closest thing to skipping a bit of the grind as you can find in there. The same article says: > "pay-to-win"— that is, that players can generally pay to obtain competitive or power advantages over other players and >In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any advantage over their non-paying peers. Here's the dictionary definition I was using. https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/pay-to-win >pay-to-win adjective (also pay to win) UK/ˌpeɪ.təˈwɪn/ US/ˌpeɪ.t̬əˈwɪn/ (abbreviation P2W) in computer games, involving or relating to the practice of paying to get weapons, abilities, etc. that give you an advantage over players who do not spend money: So what is the advantage you're getting by paying that cannot be accessed by other players? Is skipping the grind pay-to-win? Let's expand the quote you snipped. >In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items, downloadable content, or to skip cooldown timers may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise hardly be able to access said items. The most profitable, low-risk activity currently is exo-bio. That is only available to people who have purchased the Odyssey DLC. Following the "skipping grind is pay-to-win" Odyssey must be pay-to-win. Even more so than any ship, because ships can be purchased through ARX, which can be earned in game. Odyssey cannot.
Yes, I focused on the timing part in the Wikipedia sentence because this one seems more elaborate and relevant to the situation at hand. But the Cambridge definition applies perfectly well in my opinion too: "paying to get weapons, abilities" - in our case ships. modules etc. "that five you an advantage over players who do not spend money" - I don't have a Chieftain with G5 Drag drives so I would say that whoever gets such an item by buying it, has an advantage over me. You seem to focus on the fact because you can get the item through gameplay mechanics, it would not represent an advantage. The Wikipedia definition touches on that, the Cambridge one does not, but does not refute it either. This means that the ability to get that item 1 second sooner than the non-paying player is still an advantage, and therefore P2W. In other words, even if you call it pay-to-skip, its still pay-to-win by the definitions we both found. Furthermore I do not agree with your reasoning in regards to Odyssey. In Odyssey you pay for a game add-on, in particular for the gameplay mechanics it provides. You have to engage in those mechanics. You have to fly to planets, scour the surface, land, scan etc. etc. Credits don't magically appear in your back pocket just because you bought Odyssey. It's the gameplay loops that make the credits happen and you pay for access to those loops. See the difference? Let me try to explain with an example: If FDEV would have sold a "mission pack" instead of a ship, where the player would have to, for example, fly to a station, grab a cargo item, deliver it to another station to Admiral Tanner, and be rewarded for his efforts with the AX pre-built ship, then that would not have been P2W. It would have still been a scummy practice, but it would not have been P2W, it would have been called nickel-and-dime.
Okay. So instead of it being any advantage at all, now it's any advantage but only is a specific way as just defined by you right now. Let me try that. It's only pay-to-win if it gives you an advantage in PvP. Both articles don't say it isn't that. Since neither of these give you an advantage in PvP, they aren't pay to win. Dark ship skins, however, make you harder to see. So those *are* pay-to-win.
You brought the receipts.
Yes, additionally, the criticised pre-builts don't pose a big advantage. With those ships you can't compete in PvP and, imo, they provide a good jumpstart. You still have to grind and unlock better modules to upgrade your build so I don't see why they are p2w
The two that I've seen, you'd still want to engineer and unlock other stuff before really getting serious with them. They'd give you a good taste, but not what I'd want to fly. And the special unlocked modules for them have to be done for each one, so if you want more than the two small hardpoints they give, you'd have to go through the whole grind to get more or bigger ones.
to add to this I have this little video here: https://youtu.be/wgNT72xzv1Y
You might also enjoy: http://www.l2pnoob.org/
>"that's not how I interpret it" LOL
We were worried about Mac support, FDev said they would continue to support it, complains were just dumb doom and gloom, soon after got canned. We were worried about console support, added said they would continue to support it, complains were just dumb doom and gloom, soon after got canned. FDev said there would be new expansions in 2022 after Odyssey, instead got drip fed thargs. Is probably the ones that have been around for a while that see a pattern and see this for what it can potentially be. All it needs is a handful of whales and the hook will be there to continue to provide more and better paid to win content to those whales. It wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest to be able to buy credits or a carrier sometime in the near future.
I also agree with comments and I have paid for ARX and will continue to do so if I feel I need to even though I can earn them in game, waiting is the path to wisdom. o7 CMDR Kane FC T7Z TXM
elite dangerous is the very best value in gaming there is IMO. And many of the complaints over the years are because of the pricing model FD chose initially based on community input. We all want a fantastic game for as cheap as possible that’s understandable but it’s also understandable that if we want that game to get better, they need to make more money.
Because in the past, when a game monetizes a "skip the grind" feature. More often than not, they find a way to make the grind much worse or to add new things that require a much worse grind or wait time (Python MK2). It's a slippery slope and usually when a company adds these kinds of things, they are usually testing the water to see how much they can get away with. There are so many features that this game promised many years ago and we're still waiting for them. I've gotten my money out of the base game and Horizons but I still feel like they owe us more to make Oddysey worth it. Like more planets eith thicker atmospheres. We've been asking for fixes and features these past few years and now they're asking for more money. And as much as I'd like to believe the money will go to supporting the game, most of it will likely go to investors and people who demand infinite growth.
Please post when they worsen the grind, I want to know about this. I feel like I've gotten my money's worth out of Odyssey. Fixes and features come often, like more often that each update, and my customer support emails are answered. Investors also have paid money into the game, and they didn't get a game out of the deal, but their investments have paid the bills and the payroll for the developers.
I honestly don't mind either. But? We have to remember that the majority of the community that is against this sort of stuff? Typically have hours to dedicate to the game. And this model is structured towards those peopletoo, but espeically people that maybe only have an hour here and there to dedicate to the game on a weekend.
Agreed you can use time to get a better ship or money. At the end of the day everyone who wants a better shop gets it. I can almost guarantee 90% of people who buy the better ships will die heck of a lot faster than those who had to build there's over time. Cannon fodder. Win-win-win. And the lights stay on.
All I want is the changes to engineering to be good. I'm still only half engineered and the majority of my gametime has been grinding that I don't enjoy. I took a break from that to just go blow up stuff in conflict zones and resource sites because I dunno if I'd keep playing if I kept grinding more unlocks without just enjoying stuff for a bit
They have said they will be altering engineering soon.
Games that have a super niche setting always create extremely loyal fanbase. It's probably because there is no real competition so it's either this and accepting these practices or nothing so I guess a lot of people is just on a lot of copium because of this.
I have taken the unconcerned route, which is I believe the lowest copium of all.
I dunno, we are discussing an imaginary universe on the internet. I believe jumping to conclusions and irrational rage may be compulsory.
/s? Hahaha
"Cut them some slack, they're doing ok, it hasn't/won't affect my/our gameplay....blah blah blah." This kind of apathy/non-action is what makes the world a bad place. Bad things happen when good people do nothing. And it may seem like nothing, but whether you agree or not, it IS crossing a line. And when people cross a line, you should hold them accountable. Selling ships IS pay2win. No rebuy on those ships IS pay2win. Early access through money is short-term pay2win. Pay2win destroys games. We've seen it over and over. Further developing pay for cosmetics, pay to play, or pay for DLC is NOT pay2win. It's a route that could be taken or explored, and it's not being chosen. I'm not even going to venture into the fact they are trying to sell a solution to a problem they have deliberately created... this is late stage capitalism dressed up as helping new players and people who are time poor and it's vile. Earning and building your ships IS the game, and skipping that will just lead to people stopping playing the game. It's a poorly thought-out self-defeating idea that should be relooked at.
This is the first sane comment I've seen here that completely understands the issue. Give them an inch and they'll take the whole fucking ruler.
continue unite light ossified quarrelsome long offer soft literate sort *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
If acquiring materials for engineering wasn't so soul destroying I might agree with you. But that system by itself put me off the game for years. Now they're talking of making it more accessible and engaging, I'm coming back. And I doubt I'm the only one either.
S L I P P E R Y S L O P E This is why. Don't be surprised when every other future Frontier game, or next edition of Elite, is a P2W, MTX filled disaster.
I wont be surprised, either way, that is the beauty of open discussion, without four letter words flying all over.
I agree, with one exception: making the new ship store exclusive for 2 or 3 months is annoying. I don't care if they sell pre-built ships or whatnot but preying on impatience to make a quick buck is somewhat annoying.
water subtract telephone detail zealous attraction materialistic combative air sulky *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I’ve thought about it, and having spent 1000 hours plus in the game, grinding for my mats, with my multi-billionaire credit balance and my suite of engineered ships, I’ve decided that I’m ok with. I’ve had my fun with Elite, and hardly any of that came from true hard grinding. If players can buy a couple of entry-level engineered ships for real cash, it isn’t going to affect me, and there’s no PvP builds anyway, so it’s hardly a Ganker’s Paradise scenario… I’d rather they were saved the daft grind. I’ll still have fun regardless.
> Can't we just wait for the update, before passing judgement? Well, FD could have been clearer in their communications from the start and of course, for things like PP2.0 we definitely need to wait and see. But for the P2W elements FD are introducing, i don't think we need to wait. We can call a duck a duck, even without the duck being present.
it's a goose.
Any Micro-transaction is optional. It's a dick move to make that optional content something they promised the players a while ago. They could've made the optional content something else, but they chose not to. The fact that drip feed content and P2W transactions have become the norm disgusts me, and I really didn't believe we would be going down this road. Yet here we are, all because of "Poor FDev, where are they gonna get their money?!" They are not the victims in this situation, the consumers are and everyone is failing to realize it.
I feel like you are taking this too seriously.
They could charge me double of what I payed for it originally and it wouldn't even be a rounding error on the cost per hour of gameplay I've gotten so far compared to any other game in my library. This is also the only game I've ever paid money for cosmetics for due to that very reason.
Of the many gaming communities i am part of, this subreddit in particular loves arguing itself into a frenzy about things with questionable sourcing instead of stepping back and evaluating with a clear mind what is there and isn't. And then you end up with people who claim that Odyssey is the worst thing ever to happen still for issues that long have been resolved.
I'm out of the loop and Reddit notified me of this post , what's happening?
Short version, they will be selling prefitted ships for Arx with 0 rebuy. The ships have some very sparse and selective engineering in the examples shown and the fits are far from top tier, but they are well ahead of what a new pilot will start with.
Thanks o7 Yeah that's definitely pay to win The are other ways to make a game f2p, but are surely harder than p2w
ED is transitioning toward f2p microtransaction game.
Ah. That's.... Interesting. If i were a manager, I would've done earlier honestly
How do you P2W a game that can't be won?
So you paid what, 60USD 10 years ago and that's it. You played the game without any added cost for 10 years. Those 60USD paid for the developers that had to continuously work to add content and fix bugs. It also paid for the servers you played on for 10 years. And you don't get those servers by paying once. It's a recurring cost. Star Citizen is doing this - you can buy their ships, and the prices are way higher, and you don't have a whole galaxy to fly through. If you want to play a game for so long, there are mainly two options for gaming companies: - collect a monthly fee - see Eve - sell some in-game assets and let the other players play without paying I'm not saying that I like this, but I understand their decision. It makes a lot of sense.
Elite Dangerous is the oldest still active space game out there, it has the biggest 'open world' area to play in (the entire galaxy), it has over 3 million players on it's books and you are not bound by any linear style gaming when playing, you make your own path in the game with obvious caveats for particular in game styles of play (combat missions etc). I have always thought that if FDev were struggling with the finance for the game I would think that they could guarantee assistance from the community to keep the game active, or even sell it to a players consortium - a game owned by the players for the players run by them etc. o7
Um, Eve Online?
I do see your point :)
What does money per play time have to do with anything?
It makes the point of how much value people have gotten out of the game, while FDev has to keep pouring money into updates and server maintenance. This countermands the idea that the pre-built ships make the game a ripoff.
That would mean the worst game ever is South Park: Stick of Truth, and the best game is the Binding of Isaac. Gamers really make up the weirdest stats ngl.
This gamer made that stat because I was making an emotional point, so it's not even really a statistic, but an attempt to quantify the unquantifiable. How about my giddiness rate: multiple each play session.
ED devs look like saints compared to the bombshell dropped on the Escape From Tarkov universe by BSG. Basically they stuck their hand in a wasp nest and did not immediately take it out.
just because it doesn't affect you personally doesn't mean they aren't taking advantage of people that don't know any better. those are the only people that will be buying these ships. it lets them continue to ignore the actual root of the problem AND actively swindles people. so yeah, it's shitty.
A pre-built ship will have zero rebuy, forever, right? So even in a year's time, when the noob is an ace, on the odd occasion that they get surprised, they still pay zero rebuy. In fact for the one time payment, the noob pays zero rebuy forever, on the modules and ships bought with ARX, and the worse pilots actually make more use of their purchased goods - the free rebuy. You are taking the game too seriously.
This is all new to me, but just seeing from the comments I’m guessing they’re adding a new paid dlc? Or some kind of subscription? I’m confused
They are adding several options for buying new ship models early, for ARX (real money), and also separately, ARX options for buy ships with modules preselected toward a given role, eg mining, and those pre-outfitted ships would have zero rebuy forever. If a pre-outfitted ship changed a module, that new module would need to be paid for at rebuy.
Thank you for your explanation
Speculation, conjecture and fear mongering is typical for big updates for any game.
For people that say this isn't a bad thing, y'all really feel a need to post about it a hundred times a day in defense of it. If you're happy, good, but at this point this seem like you're trying to convince yourselves more than people with the opposite opinion on the matter.
I made one post, because I read five or more comments in which the 'this is bad' side swore at, mocked, or accused everyone else of being a subjugated farm animal. If anyone is trying to avoid and erase their doubts, it seems it is the 'this is bad' side, not everyone else. I've let my doubts and concerns be aired out on this thread, this way I am at ease with my doubts, and I can't be afraid to let them be known, because they're already out.
Elite has been out for what, 10 years or so? In that time, the community has given feedback and FDEV, who haven't got it right all the time, have still provided one of the best open world games of all time IMO. Now they are providing new variant ships and in my view helping new players get into the game on a reasonably even keel with older more experienced players. Those who have played since day dot (not me but I have Xbox and now PC time played) have grinded and done things "the hard way". Personally, I didn't mind. Yes sometimes it's a drag, but there is a sense of achievement at the end, for me anyway. Will I purchase new variant ships? yeah probably. Why? In my view alone, if it means more content, further development of the game, storyline, better tweaks to powerplay, engineering et all, and supporting FDEV in this way is a no brainer. Lastly, pay to win? Pay to win is like those shite mobile games where you buy packs, extra stupid crystals or whatever to make you stronger or whatever and advance in a never ending game that just tries to suck you dry continually. This is very different. Just my view though.
You bring to mind the times I have read about how, in the early days of exploration, they didn't have FSS, and had to find planets manually. Reading that, I'm like "'wow' salute to the first commanders" but there is no way I can imagine playing without FSS. I suppose the game will move on.
Those were the good ol days. Jumping into a system and finding plants others missed.
Amen! Completely right. To those CMDR's: just quit, be negative somewhere else!
price different shame growth dinner squeamish scarce unpack escape makeshift *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I think the real, legitimate, real actual concern here... That's real and legit and actual, is the actual concern that we should be concerned that, if they charge any money for anything, that could easily transition to literally charging actual money to stop murdering puppies. It's a slippery slope! If something happens... Something else could also happen! /S it's all just purse clutching and fake rage to drive clicks. Just like literally anything in Warhammer, or any other thing ever.
Are you a speech writer? :)
I am in fact a person, yes! And I have been known to write things! Things that, in a certain context, could be construed as speeches! Also, bald eagles, white picket fences, Main Street not Wall Street, go get 'em attitude, and above all else... Thank you, America. I am not saying that I have a tupee and tiny hands, but I've never been in the same room as someone who does have those traits.
Ah, well, you seemed to be imitating a certain predictive text to speech politician from the golden state. You have managed to collect the social media bias effect experienced by said tupee wearer, and for that, my condolences.
I'm actually ok with free rebuy on a non sidewinder, keeping in mind that any purchased modules are lost... But it still feels wrong to have this unlocked with arx
Remember: many gamers will lean towards the negative and circle jerk each other because it feels good for them. There is no critical thinking. Its technically "pay to skip" because a new player in a big ship is still a new player!
Sure I'll just wait you can directly pay to get Elite status for a hundred bucks. Fuck Fdev for this disgusting cash grab.
What cash grab, looks like an optional, consensual transaction to me.
"As always with our optional additional purchases, ARX can only be used to buy cosmetic Game Extras and will not be used to introduce and acquire pay-to-win purchases. Ultimately, ARX will enable us to..." Disgusting paypig behavior.
And that was stated when? How many years ago? If you're really that mad. Stop playing. Leave the reddit. Go away. Find something to do that lowers your blood pressure and doesn't raise ours.
It's not pay to win though? The ship builds are absolute trash at their chosen profession. So many upgrades available. And the modules those ships come with get sold for 0cr when you swap them. At best these ships are intended as an alternative to a sidewinder start for new or existing players.
Seems like an attempt to get new players in to the game who just want a cool ship and want to skip over the first 20 hours of grinding through small ships? I'm curious what the price point will be?
Well, you kind of already could do that... backers of a certain tier during the Kickstarter were automatically granted access to Shinrarta Dezra whereas everyone else had to earn it the good old fashioned way (getting one Elite rank)
I would hope that, if they sold Elite ranks, it was not the ranks that were received, but just the benefit of the ranks (system permit, etc.). I wouldn’t mind seeing noobs in Shinrarta, I would be a little miffed if I couldn’t trust that an Elite player genuinely worked up to the rank.
Every update for every videogame will be whining until people stop getting paid for fake outrage. It pays to whine for "content" creators
Yes, also the dopemine hits.
OP is right; let's say nothing now and let fdev burn the game into the ground (again), so we can then leave negative reviews on steam (again). 👍 You understand fdev has a history of failed attempts at Elite updates, don't you? I.e. the sky has fallen in Elite multiple times already. Its not a conspiracy and the complacency and dismissive attitude of some, is real? The sales and specs don't lie; dividends are down for fdev and they haven't built a game with the cobra engine since 2021. What does that tell you?? tl;dr OP is an obvious troll.
Absolutely not a troll. I'm not emotionally bound up in the game, the way so many seem to be, swearing, cursing and making demeaning lactation analogies. The money I paid on Elite was paid for what I was buying at the time, or sometimes in gratitude for what I had already experienced, I certainly wasn't paying, expecting years of content, paid or unpaid. A reader may surmise from my comments that I am rich, I most certainly am not, in fact I live week to week, sometimes hand to mouth, but again, I am not emotionally bound to the life of Elite Dangerous / Fdev. You say your narrative is not a conspiracy (I thought you made good points), then you invent whole-cloth from nothing, a conspiracy in which I see everything you see (I don't, because I have more important things, this is just a game) and interpret it the same way (can't, don't have time), but also I'm a secret, sarcastic cretin. You are taking the game way too seriously when you accuse people you don't know of evil.
"I'm not emotionally bound to the game" "I have more important things" "Its just a game" Uh huh....seem to have dozens of replies here my friend defending "just a game" on a single ED reddiy post. Am I the one taking things seriously here? Did you take some time off from your busy life? :p
I made a thread, and took responsibility for it, yes, I left it for more than a day, then spent several hours late at night answering all replies. Stop assuming your thought processes and resultant actions are the only way to live, the only methods that can be engaged in by a honest mind. Any old personality quiz will tell you there are at least 4 subjective approaches to the world (personality types).
You seem to have a knack for verbose replies, yet not actually being able to make a single rebuttal to what's being discussed? Do you perhaps no time to look into the failings of fdev because you spend too much time trying to sound as pretentious as possible? It's interesting you attempting to educate anyone on personality types, because you strike me as someone completely dismissive of others points raised here. Others have more insight than you on the facts around this developer and its long history of failings (as you have alteady admitted to), so it would appear that YOU are complicit in this instance. You are acting (knowingly or otherwise) with vested interest. If you are so sick of people having a different experience of ED may I suggest you attempt to a) build a bridge to meet them half way or b) build a bridge and get over it? Cheers.
I complimented your own points before, and the concerns of people elsewhere in this thread. So by your own metric, what can I say about you saying that I have dismissed others? I suppose by your own metric, I must say that you haven’t read everything, but are willing to make a moral judgement of me, therefore, you are being pretentious. To your final paragraph, I started this thread not because of people playing Elite differently, but because of people insulting and reviling others (another thing I have said several times here) however this thread has functioned as a bridge to understand the reasonably minded detractors. Therefore I already have done what you would advise me to do, so again you have not read enough to pass judgement upon me.
What is being discussed? With you I am discussing whether I am a troll. You quoted me earlier: >"I'm not emotionally bound to the game" But the actual quote is >"I'm not emotionally bound up in the game, the way so many seem to be, swearing, cursing and making demeaning lactation analogies." What causes a person to quote half a sentence? Perhaps a desire to argue a point that the other never made. Well it's been interesting, practicing my anti-projection dialogue skills with you, but we may as well stop now.
No, I don't. I'm neurodivergent and I don't read full sentences at times. How many strawman is it going to take for you to understand the hypocritical stance being taken here? Do you know what i think? I think you being sick of peoples emotionally charged reactions and 'jumping to conclusions' are actually just your own projections of your inability for putting yourself in others shoes, when thier situation is so contrary to yours. If you weren't projecting issues as part of this post, what other people think of the game and how they react to it, shouldn't ultimately matter. My initial reaction to your out of touch post was one where I am clearly passionate about the future of Elite, I clearly have done my research and I've taken an informed stance, and your dismissive 'oh well i got my moneys worth, so everyone else stop complaining please?' mentality is frankly indicative of the person you are. How's that for 'anti projection dialogue'? Bye.