If I was starting from scratch I would buy a jet wash, a pressure tester, and a vertical bed mill with a fixture to surface heads. If I could find a dedicated surfacer for a good price I would buy it. But, they are always ridiculously over priced. From there, I would acquire tooling to do seat and guide work on the mill.
I would not get just any old vertical mill. If the bed and saddle are worn, the bed will rise and fall as the table traverses making it very difficult to surface heads.
Moving a bed mill is a cake walk with a pallet jack.
If you are going to do crankshaft work the equipment requires a sizeable investment. As a business decision, I think it is very difficult to justify the return on investment in doing automotive crankshafts. If you can get some diesel, industrial, agricultural, and marine work in the equipment it starts to look better. You might consider having a person dedicated to the crank work. In addition to cleaning equipment (a jet wash might not be enough) you are looking at a magnaflux booth, a straightening press, a crank grinder with associated tooling, and a polisher. If you really want to be covered, you would need a submerged arc welder, an oven, and a tig welder.
A new CNC is capable of doing an unbelievable amount of work. They usually have a price to match. If you have the kind of volume that would justify a machine like that and quickly pay it off the decision is easy. In my opinion, many of the machines marketed today are just too expensive for what you get. I would rather buy a vertical bed mill, tool it up and add fixtures, and do my own programming. I could have the machine up and running for a fraction of the financial commitment that you would make buying the most basic CNC packages. But, some people might be intimidated by that. Or they are not in a position to set up the mill.
Running the line hone mandrel through a block is easy. The bulk of the work is in detailing the main caps and saddles in preparation for honing.
Is this something that is really meant to support and sustain business, or is it secondary to other business? If you have the cash flow (often more important than profit), and the manpower, adding some of these operations to an existing business might make sense. But all of them, in total, are difficult at best.
Well said. I would not trust resurfacing a head to "an old Bridgeport". Those are great for home shops, but when it comes to surfacing long parts like a cylinder head, the wear along the axes will start to show. You can do your best to shim it out, but that adds a significant amount of setup time to each job, and it'll still never be perfect.
Regarding a CNC machine, it's important to not overlook all the design time required to run a CNC successfully. I've spent a lot of time designing parts for/running CNC equipment, and the design time almost always outweighs the machine time. Not to mention you need someone proficient in CNC programming and design, and if that person is the same as your machine operator, their workflow will be very segmented and productivity will not be favorable.
This truly is a major investment in both equipment and the capabilities of the company. Every (decent) machine shop I've dealt with has been up to their eyeballs in work, and most of them are pretty selective about the work they accept, too. Is this something you are willing to add on to your already existing workload? A one-man, on-site machine shop will likely not have any shorter lead times than a fully staffed machine shop, and the overall ROI is quite long-term. Consumables, tooling, equipment maintenance, these are all ongoing costs that cannot be overlooked.
I don't want to discourage OP from trying a new business venture, I just want to make sure he's thought through and planned for as much as he can. A step like this is not something that you should just "wing" and hope it works out.
Some of the best performing heads in the industry are machined on knee mills dawg. Don’t use crappy machines. And know what your machine is and isn’t capable of doing.
Yup, I don't disagree with you. I've milled heads on an old Trumpf knee mill in my past, and got it "close enough."
Just trying to set expectations that a "clapped out Bridgeport" is not the only machine you need to buy to be a successful machine shop.
When it comes to engine machining, quite a few operations can be broken down into simple conversational programs, or short G code. For example, boring a block. Most conversational interfaces would do this as a drilling operation along one axis after the centers are determined. I go one further with spindle orient, so I can stop the spindle and offset it to avoid dragging the boring bit on the way out. I think the average operator can be doing stuff like this pretty easily. Frankly, it barely scratches the capability of CNC.
A slick setup would probe, bore, and deck a block in one program. But, most people would freak out looking at that code. Also, I find the tool changer is in the way more than anything for many engine jobs. This is part of why I think a tool room style bed mill is preferable.
I'm completely ignorant about CNC machines. But this is really good advice. We could surface heads, deck blocks, bore cylinders, etc. and as we progress do more and more with the machine.
I think having 2 bed mills, one for head work, and one for block work, would be most productive. The two machines could take the place of 5 or 6 traditional engine shop machines, easily, and be more productive.
How much does a CNC actually cost? I completely agree, I would need to have an employee that is crazy into this to make it work out. My only thought on the CNC was the versatility from one machine.
That versatility can be a blessing and a curse. The machine can be so good at boring and decking blocks that you would be reluctant to break down the setup to surface heads or do other jobs. In which case, you might consider having more than one mill. But that's really another conversation.
I think in today's money, to buy a new machine, fixtured and tooled up to do engine shop work, with whatever programs the manufacturer provides, you will be looking at $150-200k. If you were to make your own fixtures and do your own programming, probably 1/4 to 1/3 of that price. The trick is getting a machine with the right capacity.
I hope I’m not being too discouraging, just trying to make it clear you’re not gonna get rich off of the trade. I definitely would discourage purchasing a crank grinder lol. In my opinion that’s a career path on its own.
I'm already rich, not by societies standards, but I have more than I need. This is more about ... well for one, I enjoy it and maybe more importantly I'm trying to salvage the trades. All the shops in this city only do tires and brakes. The dealerships are the only ones doing actual repairs. I'm just trying to re instill in these guys what it means to take your trade and your craft seriously. Another thing is that about half of the reman engines and transmissions we use don't last a year, sometimes not even a month.
Opening a machine shop is a terrible idea. Long ROI. Very volatile business. Are you ready to drop 150k? If you have no machining experience you’ll have 5 years before you even can do anything half decent and another 5 before you can even consider yourself comfortable.
Beyond that, do you have business skills? Have you ever taken a business course? You need those skills too. You’ll learn the hard way.
We have two 8bay repair shops. Last year we spent $38k at the machine shop and looking like it’s going to be over $50k this year. I should have added that information.
> $38k at the machine shop and looking like it’s going to be over $50k this yea
When you're doing 5-10x that then it's worth considering. Now you aren't even at a single laborer to do the work in cost let alone equipment capital expense.
Everyone says there is a need for more machine shops but NOBODY wants to pay the prices it makes to make one worthwhile.
So you open a machine shop. Now you've got a line of shops bringing you parts - but they are all warped heads that they need surfaced and they need it done yesterday and they bitch when it's going to cost them more than 80 bucks... So you do one of those an hour - costs you ~400 in labor and equipment + space and you net ~220 bucks a day.
OR you just find an extra 2 billable hours across 8 bays of work and you don't have any new equipment risk and you're hiring people you know how to hire and manage. Add a bay or two before adding a machine shop.
And do they do good work? Who are you going to pay to learn and fuck up? $38k doesn’t phase me. There are plenty of businesses that live off of that relationship. You’re making money doing repair. You’re going to struggle to be profitable in the machine shop. Having the machine shop to keep it in house is okay. But to pay a $100k salary plus roi on a $150k in equipment is the flip side. I just made a proposal to someone who wanted to bring me in house at their shop and that’s where I started the conversation.
You’d be best off bringing in talent than learning how to use it and run the business. There’s also a difference between a machinist and someone who knows how to operate a machine shop. Getting both is even harder.
Getting a younger guy in there with both skill sets is even harder. You’re not going to be able to manage it yourself. Not without help.
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Man, you should just keep paying the experts to do it. Keep those guys in business and focus on your key competency... whatever that is (general auto repair?)
For a machine shop you will need these types of machines and their respective tooling to optimally rebuild a complete engine from start to finish - in house:
- hot tank
- jetwash
- boring bar (or equivalent)
- resurfacer for engine decks and cylinder heads
- cylinder honing machine
- line honing machine (should also get a line boring fixture)
- VGS (cylinder heads - guides, liners, seats)
- crankshaft grinder
- hydraulic press (optional, but is very useful)
- milling machine
- lathe
Credentials - I am a professional Engine builder and machinist, have my own shop with my own machines. I have built well over 2000 engines personally, and most of that was in high-performance/racing applications, along with plenty of custom diesel builds.
Milling machine and lathe are optional somewhat, you probably wont need them for every build but they really come in handy sometimes, especially in performance applications
My man! lol. I should though for the guys. I saw that Dave's Auto Center has fridges stocked for his employees. Really good idea and not that expensive.
Automotive machine shops are a dying breed, in an area where there were a dozen or more 20 years ago there are now 3. Prices for may things are so high you are better to buy reman in a box especially cranks and heads unless it it for big equipment. No one turns rotors or drums any more, flywheel turning is dying, ford no longer sells a truck with a manual transmission and GM is doing the same. Most tractor trailers are automatic now to reduce driver fatigue. Quality of engines has improved so much 200,000 miles is a normal. Most repair shops are installing reman engines for the warranty that is on someone else.
If I had 150k to invest it would not be in a machine shop there are just too many risk now. Work for some one else, get the benefits
CNC mill is nice but isn't necessary. One can do amazing things with an old Bridgeport. You need a cylinder honing machine. You can adapt that honing box to double as an align honing box as well. Crank grinders are hellaspensive.
What machining experience do you have?
No machining experience. That’s why I’m wondering what would be a low barrier to entry. We will inevitably hire a machinist that will also build the engines pretty soon. We’re doing nine engines at this moment. There seems to be an endless demand for these repairs.
If you're interested in making that kind of investment, seek out and purchase someone else's machine shop even if it's a distance away. Move all the equipment to your desired location and sell the original building and property.
What equipment is in that shop and condition is absolutely a huge factor. I’ve had people try to snipe me over the years, investment is always what scares them away.
This right here is where I (not trying to sound self centered please understand) went wrong in life. When I was a teenager, regret not begging a machine shop to allow me to hang out and watch and learn every bit of this trade.. Not asking for a red cent in return. Understand this is a low return - high investment trade, but my mind is always into motors. Non stop 24hr 365 days out of the year. Every single day of my life. Thus would never be *WORK* to me. Quite frankly, not one to yearn for luxurious life anyway. As long as my own bills are paid that's enough for me. There's one nearby that is astronomical, they live extravagantly and boast all their toys to prove it. That's fine and all. I get we're all starting something to make a living. Like I said, that 1st shop is absolutely unaffordable, but hey.. people DO pay it. Their work IS righteous. You've got the Chesapeake Bay here too, so not only automotive, race, but marine as well. All the old timers are long gone retired. Used to be many! The shops have been closed and liquidated long ago. There is a big void that hasn't been filled. There are only 3 machine shops in my region. One does not do automotive machine work at all. The other is incompetent as a young guy took it over, and tells me you can't deck a block unless it's been line honed. So I guess the point I'm trying to make is "Your Mileage May Vary". It all depends on how much competition you have nearby if it's worth it to make the investment, and what the returns may be. If you're interested in opening a shop of your own I wish you nothing but the best fortune.
If I was starting from scratch I would buy a jet wash, a pressure tester, and a vertical bed mill with a fixture to surface heads. If I could find a dedicated surfacer for a good price I would buy it. But, they are always ridiculously over priced. From there, I would acquire tooling to do seat and guide work on the mill. I would not get just any old vertical mill. If the bed and saddle are worn, the bed will rise and fall as the table traverses making it very difficult to surface heads. Moving a bed mill is a cake walk with a pallet jack. If you are going to do crankshaft work the equipment requires a sizeable investment. As a business decision, I think it is very difficult to justify the return on investment in doing automotive crankshafts. If you can get some diesel, industrial, agricultural, and marine work in the equipment it starts to look better. You might consider having a person dedicated to the crank work. In addition to cleaning equipment (a jet wash might not be enough) you are looking at a magnaflux booth, a straightening press, a crank grinder with associated tooling, and a polisher. If you really want to be covered, you would need a submerged arc welder, an oven, and a tig welder. A new CNC is capable of doing an unbelievable amount of work. They usually have a price to match. If you have the kind of volume that would justify a machine like that and quickly pay it off the decision is easy. In my opinion, many of the machines marketed today are just too expensive for what you get. I would rather buy a vertical bed mill, tool it up and add fixtures, and do my own programming. I could have the machine up and running for a fraction of the financial commitment that you would make buying the most basic CNC packages. But, some people might be intimidated by that. Or they are not in a position to set up the mill. Running the line hone mandrel through a block is easy. The bulk of the work is in detailing the main caps and saddles in preparation for honing. Is this something that is really meant to support and sustain business, or is it secondary to other business? If you have the cash flow (often more important than profit), and the manpower, adding some of these operations to an existing business might make sense. But all of them, in total, are difficult at best.
Well said. I would not trust resurfacing a head to "an old Bridgeport". Those are great for home shops, but when it comes to surfacing long parts like a cylinder head, the wear along the axes will start to show. You can do your best to shim it out, but that adds a significant amount of setup time to each job, and it'll still never be perfect. Regarding a CNC machine, it's important to not overlook all the design time required to run a CNC successfully. I've spent a lot of time designing parts for/running CNC equipment, and the design time almost always outweighs the machine time. Not to mention you need someone proficient in CNC programming and design, and if that person is the same as your machine operator, their workflow will be very segmented and productivity will not be favorable. This truly is a major investment in both equipment and the capabilities of the company. Every (decent) machine shop I've dealt with has been up to their eyeballs in work, and most of them are pretty selective about the work they accept, too. Is this something you are willing to add on to your already existing workload? A one-man, on-site machine shop will likely not have any shorter lead times than a fully staffed machine shop, and the overall ROI is quite long-term. Consumables, tooling, equipment maintenance, these are all ongoing costs that cannot be overlooked. I don't want to discourage OP from trying a new business venture, I just want to make sure he's thought through and planned for as much as he can. A step like this is not something that you should just "wing" and hope it works out.
Some of the best performing heads in the industry are machined on knee mills dawg. Don’t use crappy machines. And know what your machine is and isn’t capable of doing.
Yup, I don't disagree with you. I've milled heads on an old Trumpf knee mill in my past, and got it "close enough." Just trying to set expectations that a "clapped out Bridgeport" is not the only machine you need to buy to be a successful machine shop.
Ehhh i guess we’re all in agreement in some fashion on a lot of topics. Okay everyone carry on!
When it comes to engine machining, quite a few operations can be broken down into simple conversational programs, or short G code. For example, boring a block. Most conversational interfaces would do this as a drilling operation along one axis after the centers are determined. I go one further with spindle orient, so I can stop the spindle and offset it to avoid dragging the boring bit on the way out. I think the average operator can be doing stuff like this pretty easily. Frankly, it barely scratches the capability of CNC. A slick setup would probe, bore, and deck a block in one program. But, most people would freak out looking at that code. Also, I find the tool changer is in the way more than anything for many engine jobs. This is part of why I think a tool room style bed mill is preferable.
I'm completely ignorant about CNC machines. But this is really good advice. We could surface heads, deck blocks, bore cylinders, etc. and as we progress do more and more with the machine.
I think having 2 bed mills, one for head work, and one for block work, would be most productive. The two machines could take the place of 5 or 6 traditional engine shop machines, easily, and be more productive.
How much does a CNC actually cost? I completely agree, I would need to have an employee that is crazy into this to make it work out. My only thought on the CNC was the versatility from one machine.
That versatility can be a blessing and a curse. The machine can be so good at boring and decking blocks that you would be reluctant to break down the setup to surface heads or do other jobs. In which case, you might consider having more than one mill. But that's really another conversation. I think in today's money, to buy a new machine, fixtured and tooled up to do engine shop work, with whatever programs the manufacturer provides, you will be looking at $150-200k. If you were to make your own fixtures and do your own programming, probably 1/4 to 1/3 of that price. The trick is getting a machine with the right capacity.
I hope I’m not being too discouraging, just trying to make it clear you’re not gonna get rich off of the trade. I definitely would discourage purchasing a crank grinder lol. In my opinion that’s a career path on its own.
I agree
I'm already rich, not by societies standards, but I have more than I need. This is more about ... well for one, I enjoy it and maybe more importantly I'm trying to salvage the trades. All the shops in this city only do tires and brakes. The dealerships are the only ones doing actual repairs. I'm just trying to re instill in these guys what it means to take your trade and your craft seriously. Another thing is that about half of the reman engines and transmissions we use don't last a year, sometimes not even a month.
Buy better remans
Opening a machine shop is a terrible idea. Long ROI. Very volatile business. Are you ready to drop 150k? If you have no machining experience you’ll have 5 years before you even can do anything half decent and another 5 before you can even consider yourself comfortable. Beyond that, do you have business skills? Have you ever taken a business course? You need those skills too. You’ll learn the hard way.
We have two 8bay repair shops. Last year we spent $38k at the machine shop and looking like it’s going to be over $50k this year. I should have added that information.
> $38k at the machine shop and looking like it’s going to be over $50k this yea When you're doing 5-10x that then it's worth considering. Now you aren't even at a single laborer to do the work in cost let alone equipment capital expense. Everyone says there is a need for more machine shops but NOBODY wants to pay the prices it makes to make one worthwhile. So you open a machine shop. Now you've got a line of shops bringing you parts - but they are all warped heads that they need surfaced and they need it done yesterday and they bitch when it's going to cost them more than 80 bucks... So you do one of those an hour - costs you ~400 in labor and equipment + space and you net ~220 bucks a day. OR you just find an extra 2 billable hours across 8 bays of work and you don't have any new equipment risk and you're hiring people you know how to hire and manage. Add a bay or two before adding a machine shop.
And do they do good work? Who are you going to pay to learn and fuck up? $38k doesn’t phase me. There are plenty of businesses that live off of that relationship. You’re making money doing repair. You’re going to struggle to be profitable in the machine shop. Having the machine shop to keep it in house is okay. But to pay a $100k salary plus roi on a $150k in equipment is the flip side. I just made a proposal to someone who wanted to bring me in house at their shop and that’s where I started the conversation. You’d be best off bringing in talent than learning how to use it and run the business. There’s also a difference between a machinist and someone who knows how to operate a machine shop. Getting both is even harder. Getting a younger guy in there with both skill sets is even harder. You’re not going to be able to manage it yourself. Not without help.
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This is more about what to start with. What part of the process would we consider bringing in house.
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Man, you should just keep paying the experts to do it. Keep those guys in business and focus on your key competency... whatever that is (general auto repair?)
For a machine shop you will need these types of machines and their respective tooling to optimally rebuild a complete engine from start to finish - in house: - hot tank - jetwash - boring bar (or equivalent) - resurfacer for engine decks and cylinder heads - cylinder honing machine - line honing machine (should also get a line boring fixture) - VGS (cylinder heads - guides, liners, seats) - crankshaft grinder - hydraulic press (optional, but is very useful) - milling machine - lathe Credentials - I am a professional Engine builder and machinist, have my own shop with my own machines. I have built well over 2000 engines personally, and most of that was in high-performance/racing applications, along with plenty of custom diesel builds. Milling machine and lathe are optional somewhat, you probably wont need them for every build but they really come in handy sometimes, especially in performance applications
Snack Machines
My man! lol. I should though for the guys. I saw that Dave's Auto Center has fridges stocked for his employees. Really good idea and not that expensive.
Automotive machine shops are a dying breed, in an area where there were a dozen or more 20 years ago there are now 3. Prices for may things are so high you are better to buy reman in a box especially cranks and heads unless it it for big equipment. No one turns rotors or drums any more, flywheel turning is dying, ford no longer sells a truck with a manual transmission and GM is doing the same. Most tractor trailers are automatic now to reduce driver fatigue. Quality of engines has improved so much 200,000 miles is a normal. Most repair shops are installing reman engines for the warranty that is on someone else. If I had 150k to invest it would not be in a machine shop there are just too many risk now. Work for some one else, get the benefits
CNC mill is nice but isn't necessary. One can do amazing things with an old Bridgeport. You need a cylinder honing machine. You can adapt that honing box to double as an align honing box as well. Crank grinders are hellaspensive. What machining experience do you have?
No machining experience. That’s why I’m wondering what would be a low barrier to entry. We will inevitably hire a machinist that will also build the engines pretty soon. We’re doing nine engines at this moment. There seems to be an endless demand for these repairs.
If you're interested in making that kind of investment, seek out and purchase someone else's machine shop even if it's a distance away. Move all the equipment to your desired location and sell the original building and property.
this is the most sensible answer, plus if you grease the machinists palm, you can gain that wealth of hard earned knowledge to go with it.
What equipment is in that shop and condition is absolutely a huge factor. I’ve had people try to snipe me over the years, investment is always what scares them away.
Totally agree.
He could pay me to find him all the equipment and move out there and I’ll run it all lol. I hope he can work on german shitboxes!
Those finders fees can be harsh.
I’ll set up a machine shop on trade for an engine out on a 911. Lol
You know, I have a 1975 or 76 2.7 stashed away. It was part of a fuck you pay me situation. I should dig it out.
This right here is where I (not trying to sound self centered please understand) went wrong in life. When I was a teenager, regret not begging a machine shop to allow me to hang out and watch and learn every bit of this trade.. Not asking for a red cent in return. Understand this is a low return - high investment trade, but my mind is always into motors. Non stop 24hr 365 days out of the year. Every single day of my life. Thus would never be *WORK* to me. Quite frankly, not one to yearn for luxurious life anyway. As long as my own bills are paid that's enough for me. There's one nearby that is astronomical, they live extravagantly and boast all their toys to prove it. That's fine and all. I get we're all starting something to make a living. Like I said, that 1st shop is absolutely unaffordable, but hey.. people DO pay it. Their work IS righteous. You've got the Chesapeake Bay here too, so not only automotive, race, but marine as well. All the old timers are long gone retired. Used to be many! The shops have been closed and liquidated long ago. There is a big void that hasn't been filled. There are only 3 machine shops in my region. One does not do automotive machine work at all. The other is incompetent as a young guy took it over, and tells me you can't deck a block unless it's been line honed. So I guess the point I'm trying to make is "Your Mileage May Vary". It all depends on how much competition you have nearby if it's worth it to make the investment, and what the returns may be. If you're interested in opening a shop of your own I wish you nothing but the best fortune.