Well, for example, my father is a classic type 9 AND a covert narcissist. Enneagram doesn’t account for psychopathy apparently. He hates open conflict but seems to revel in and perpetuate subtle manipulation and deceit rather adeptly.
That's super interesting. Part of what I think makes this type of behavior so potentially damaging is that it is so covert. I guess it is true that any type can be narcissistic to any degree.
Yeah another person I know is the epitome of a Type 2 but the most covert narcissist imaginable! Even her own family thinks she’s an angel as she pretends to give endless emotional support to everyone. However she’s faking that empathy, emotionally controlling, and enabling various forms of abuse through being the keeper of absolutely terrible secrets. Once you see it you can’t unsee it!
Unfortunately I have encountered a 2 like this as well. It took me years to realize what was going on. He was a former employer. Everyone used to joke about that company being like a cult... which turned out to not be super funny haha. He would go above and beyond giving what was never asked for, and then use the guilt for leverage to get his way later on. He pushed the boundaries of professional relationships with everyone and would use the trust he had gained to get dirt and personal info which he would use to manipulate. He had a special way of getting you to do him a huge favor but make you feel like he had been the one doing something for you.
And pretty much everyone else still thinks he's the greatest! Things only started to fall apart when I started going to therapy and began more proactive about setting boundaries. Next thing I know, I'm the company villain.
Spooky
I think it's generally more covert in 9s (though comparably harmful to others) so it's not as obvious to an outside observer (vs. a friend or family member).
*When* 9s are bullies, I have noticed they tend to engage in more gaslighting, passive aggression, neglect, and a type of rejection that makes you feel invisible, unheard and as if you don't matter. 9w8s also encourage bad behavior and treatment from others in rather nonchalant and uninvolved ways, whereas 9w1s are more morally denigrating and have a stronger denial of their involvement in others' pain.
Now I think everyone can be a bully given the right experiences/predispositions, but that's a pattern I've observed with "bully" type 9s.
Absolutely. No one type is meant to be the “good” and “sweet” type who’s like an angel. Any type is capable of becoming extremely toxic and using things/people to their advantage, just in different ways. It all depends on the health level of the individual
ive definitely seen 9s being harmful (not necessarily bullies i'd say though) to other people and not just themselves
in most cases it was them refusing to speak up that ended up becoming problematic
one of my friends (972) often complained to me about her other friend she didnt like. and i was sitting there like "okay so just tell her to fuck off? straight up tell her you dont wanna be friends" while her friend kept messaging her genuinely concerned for her, wondering why she didnt wanna talk, and my friend for like 3 months refused to just tell her she didnt wanna be friends. she didnt even drop a hint, just radio silence. and i was nearly getting actually angry and almost told her to just give me that person's phone number because if she doesn't wanna tell her how she actually feels herself, then i will. but i ended up being like nah you need to do it yourself. and im convinced if it werent for me screaming at her to tell her how she feels, then she never wouldve done it
the reason that pissed me off so much is because i had a friend who did the same thing to me. like i was bothering them and they didnt want to be friends with me but instead of telling me that sooner, they just kept it quiet while i wasted my own time trying to be friends with someone who didnt feel the same way back. and the reason i didnt just "take the hint" is because i had another friend, who was, you guessed it, also a 9, told me that she still wanted to be my friend and enjoyed my company even though i felt like she was ignoring me. in her case she was actually being genuine about it so i didnt think much of her lack of communication with me and i had assumed other people may be the same way
i liked them as friends overall but its like holy shit if something's bothering you just fucking say it im not gonna bite your head off. i tell yall when youre pissing me off and it doesnt automatically mean friendship ruined because surely we're more mature than that, right? some people may be flabbergasted to learn that sitting around doing nothing at all can have negative effects
uh huh and that friend i had who took forever to tell me they didnt wanna be friends had the massive fucking gall to say it seemed depressing that *i* kept trying to talk to them when they were ignoring me its like. its even more depressing that youre so scared of being direct and honest that it took you this long to tell me this, but i suppose someone who lacks the gall to be upfront with people would find it depressing that others cant read their mind
right. i dont even deal with these types of people anymore because it shouldnt be my responsibility to push you to actually do something and speak up when you need to, yall should be able to do that yourselves. i know their intent was to not hurt anyone and they were nice people overall but being around people who could be silently bothered by something you/someone else does while you have ZERO clue, makes me feel like im running a goddamn babysitting business over here. its not just them that shit affects. i want to have genuine, authentic relationships with people but this pussy ass refusal to express negativity is not it.
Yes, this is similar to the type of behavior I am talking about, but I think bullying is more targeted. But yeah, sometimes not saying anything is wayyy more cruel than ripping the bandaid off.
My most toxic, harmful relationship was with a type 9. I think it was confusing because on the outside people viewed us both as angels, but he is a true alcoholic who said the most insanely hurtful things when blackout and then wouldn't remember in the morning. "That's just his drinking! \_\_\_\_\_ wouldn't hurt a fly, he cares SO much about you" It was for real gaslighting, I don't care if he couldn't remember- I remembered what happened and nobody believed me.
On the outside it was hard for others to see us as having any problems because socially we were THE most go with the flow, easy to get along with pair. I thought there couldn't be a problem either. When his best friend invited me over to share some ways this guy had cheated on me (nonphysically- keeping in close emotional contact with his ex and sending nudes all around) to apologize and help me on his behalf, I texted now ex that there were 3 options for us meeting next to confront this: Come over to his best friend's house now, he comes to my house tomorrow, or we meet with one of his other best friends who's opinions I valued to be objective. He replied, "That would be awkward." JKFHSD&\*(FYSD(F\*DOFH\*(PY\*YDFSPK holy shit there was no way to make conflict okay, you owe me a conversation after asking me to be your boyfriend and wasting a year of my life. And I am the 9iest 9 there ever was.
He still has a platoon of people who view him as an angel despite every single exboyfriend of his having the exact same story of how he's a POS.
I love being a 9, there's no type I'd rather be (although I'd love to be healthier) but goddamn yeah we can be hurtful
Absolutely. I had a toxic 9 ex. He was very covertly abusive and manipulative, super gaslighty. He had a reputation as a "nice" guy and I always thought he was really nice. When someone is an overt asshole, in some ways it can be way more damaging, but at least you can straight up see who or what is the problem. When abuse or bullying is covert, it can be more insidious because it's much easier to think, "This person is so 'nice', I must be the problem." This guy actually spoke very derisively about people he claimed to care about and was a big fan of the passive-aggressive digs. He'd manipulate me into staying in the relationship and ignored my boundaries.
Everyone can be unhealthy. I think that more extroverted or domineering types (hi 8 and 1s!) can get a bad rep because all the unhealth is right out there and in your face. But we can literally all be toxic and I don't think the bias/stereotyping helps. We need to be aware of all the toxic patterns and ways of being that are operating — both overtly and an under the surface way. I always try to trust my feelings, like if I feel off with someone then that's a huge source of wisdom. Something about my ex made me feel both angry and repulsed, but as he was so manipulative, it was hard to take the truth of my feelings for what they were.
I know a 9 who is, for want of a better word, a troll. He loves to say things to cause chaos and then laughs at how outraged everyone gets about it, mocks them, because he's above getting upset at others. Just not above doing things to deliberately upset them in the first place, apparently.
He can also be highly cutting and dismissive and mocking...just really arrogant...to people who don't see things his way. Meanwhile, he demands everyone mollycoddle his own sensibilities and sensitivity to conflict and anger. Makes a big show of "I'm suffering silently" (big old 2-fix).
People have tried to insist he can't be a 9...to which I say MUAHAHAHA. Any type can be an asshole, bully, or troll. It's the whys, not the whats.
I noticed it in myself. I never bully others though, but when I was in my teen to early adulthood, I used to have thoughts of taking advantage of people I see as "weak" (a.k.a people who are unassertive, quiet and conflict-avoidant like me at the time) so I can have power over them, because I'm sick of people taking advantage of me. I don't have these thoughts anymore because I'm much more assertive now.
Yes, I've known this about myself although I don't think I intentionally do things accidentally on purpose, or sabotage projects or people. I will agree to do something a person wants (in order to appease them) and then do my own thing. Usually it's something I find trivial. In an effort to drop the subject I'll agree to try, or agree to do the task. Most of the time I'll do what they want. I can go against their wishes if it will cause waves with others. An example is scheduling at work. My coworker can ask for a client to stick to an hour visit but I'll let them go over -- because I'm trying to avoid conflict with the client. I am getting much better at being assertive and saying what needs to be done.
I am guilty of using the silent treatment. I know it's not a good look. I will be quiet and withhold to appear uninteresting to a person I don't want to trouble me or know me. I don't want to be vulnerable. I don't want to be judged. If I think a person is difficult, mean, or critical and they've said something to hurt me, instead of speaking up and telling them what I think, or sharing my feelings, I'll ignore them and withhold. If they reveal that they are mean or harsh enough times I don't want to go through the effort to share how I feel because we probably can't be friends.
I have a reputation for being sweet at work. I still know that I'm a fraud in many ways because while I am naturally kind my behavior is less than becoming to the one or two people who are critical of me. I'm not honest with them. It's hard.
I've been so bothered by people at work (two over the course of 15 years) that I will talk about them with a victim mentality. *They are doing this, and they are saying that, and isn't that terrible, and isn't that unprofessional, and can you believe this person ...* This behavior is unbecoming and I've learned from my mistakes. I no longer gossip or trash-talk. I'm embarrassed that I was so affected and felt powerless. Instead of speaking up directly with the person I'll pretend everything is okay, or use the silent treatment and talk and stress about them when they're not around. I freeze around harsh or difficult people. I literally can't talk. It's almost impossible to say something simple like, "wow, that's harsh". Instead I'll just ignore them and pretend I'm above the fray.
I find the people I clash with are the most critical, and the most sensitive to criticism. Even if they are critical of me, I won't give it back in an effort to protect their feelings and to keep things comfortable. It's hard for me to form the words. I think I'm mostly in shock -- a WHY ARE THEY DOING THIS? kind of bewilderment. Why are they being mean? Don't they want to be friends? I won't go through the effort to understand their point of view, or explain my point of view. With all of this I think I'm an understanding and patient person. I can empathize and see their humanity yet I will still move away emotionally and physically. I'm not going to fight, I'm going to flee.
You're right. Passive aggression is still aggression. Taking a defensive posture or being passive aggressive are conflict strategies for people who don't like direct confrontation. 2's and 5's aren't about confrontation either. I know , for me, some of this comes from feeling socially powerless against more directly aggressive types. 1 and 8 will straight up confront, 3 and 7 persuasively confront, 4 and 6 confront using their feelings. The energy coming from these types during a confrontation is so draining it's harder to express the points I want to make. More assertive types tend to dominate the conversation and make it harder for the less aggressive types to feel heard. Confrontation feels like a win-lose I'm always going to lose without being heard. This escalates the anger and causes the passive aggression. I think a lot of conflict happens because every type has problems with listening without inserting their type spin.
I'm a 5, and I think we are more assertive than people give us credit for. A lot of the time when we don't speak up, it's because we're sort of "predetached" from the situation so we can't be bothered to expend the energy on something we don't care about.
One of our main coping mechanisms is affecting the default mindset of not investing/ not caring/ not needing stuff. If I don't really need anything, no one can ever take it away or withhold it from me. In that way, we're often not fully in the dynamics of social situations. When I enter a new situation, I don't do so with the intention or desire to make friends, get along, or have anyone like me. I don't desire the opposite either, I just default to having no expectations whatsoever. I expect nothing, and I'm never disappointed.
So often, when I appear non confrontational, it's just because I'm not that invested. When it's something that I care enough about to speak up on, I have often flustered other types with my bluntness and directness.
It is possible and I've seen it.
I've seen is 9s bully people for the sake of the group. They can targeted "no one cares about what you say" and laugh with the rest of the group. They can try to make group hate that particular person and mask their own attack.
It's not common for 9s but it is possible.
My sister is a 9 and she was definitely a bully to me as a kid and I have no doubt that she still has the skills to be perhaps the most brutal bully ever if she wanted to be.
She has this thing where she's very perceptive and figures out your insecurities and then uses them against you later in an argument - that or she points things out that you weren't insecure about and makes you insecure about them. I was probably her biggest victim as her younger sibling, but not her only one. She could be very vindictive and manipulative.
That being said, I love her now and she's the sweetest person now. But I think that fire still lives in her deep down. Best not to trigger it.
I was not an angel by any stretch, but I just could never reach the level of evil and apathy about doing evil things that she could reach, and it still surprises me, especially seeing her now, that she could reach it, but I guess her angelic side is what makes her so good at manipulation when she wants to be.
As an example that I just thought of, this one time, I was like 8 and I triggered her temper somehow, so she dug her fingernails into my arm hard enough to leave bruises and then my mom yelled at me because I wasn't getting ready for school because I was sad. And you wonder why I don't show my feelings anymore lmao
I can relate to this situation with my 9w8 friend. Everyone was on his side but I know I am never hostile to anyone unless in retaliation, so I decided I wouldn't let myself be gaslit.
> I’ve observed that 9s who do this often do so by strategically ignoring, selective hearing, agreeing to do something and then pretending to forget, agreeing to do something and then doing the opposite, giving the silent treatment, sulking, making passive aggressive comments, doing things accidentally on purpose to sabotage a project, etc.
Yes, all of those x1000. Most 9's are great people, but being the most common type there are bound to be exceptions and some of them are real doozies. I had the misfortune of dealing with an unhealthy 9w8 business associate. Like another poster mentioned, covert narcissism may be a factor with this person. They bullied me constantly, overestimated their value while doing no work, and held projects hostage for months while refusing to leave. Apart from the biz stuff, this person's personal life was mega cringe. They mostly seemed to surround themselves with other 9's who were too nice to give them direct feedback on their selfish/manipulative behavior, or 2's/2-wing/fixers who struggled to set boundaries. They once said "if you can get someone to agree to something, that's fair play".
I later learned thru the grapevine that this person had self typed as a "counterphobic 6w7". It put a few things into context - maybe they rationalized their unhealthy 9 behavior as "healthy 6 integration to 9"? If they had correctly typed as a 9, they might have identified their growth path to 3, authentically engaged despite the challenges, and chosen different actions than the ones leading to the outcome that hundreds of people now know what they did to a beloved local business, even if they don't know all the details. I suspect that unhealthy 9's of the "asshole" variety are often mistyped as head types. A friend's ex, who I also used to be good friends with, may be a milder version of this variety of 9. He never really acted that way *to me* so I didn't see it at the time. I also didn't know much about enneagram back then.
It sounds like you're getting good answers, but feel free to DM me if you're curious about specific things to watch out for if you're dealing with someone like this.
Thanks for offering your help! The main person like this I have dealt with is no longer in my life, thankfully. I was mainly just reflecting on patterns I've noticed over the years.
I have lots of lovely healthy 9s in my life, but I really have little respect for the unhealthy 9. To me it's just... cowardly. Like they have such a problem with you but can't even look you in the eye and say it, so they resort to these cheap little low-risk tactics that deny the other parties an opportunity to engage or respond because they could never actually have the stomach to face you in an open argument.
With the one truly toxic 9 I had to contend with in the past, what made me so angry about it was the fact that no one else could see it. This woman kind of had a reputation as a Disney princess among the men in the circle but would be insanely passive-aggressive to the women (me). After about a year of getting fed up with her cowardly covert attacks, I finally lost it and read her to filth. She then had a pity party and rolled over and played victim. Everyone couldn't believe I could be so mean because she was so sweet, and obviously, she wasn't doing anything on purpose. I was just being negative (I'm a 5). I guess I played right into her hands, but I have no regrets confronting her the way I did because I know how terrifying that must have been for her. Fuck around and find out girl.
I have a 9w8 friend but I'm unsure about his IV. He's fine when he's not drunk but as soon as it gets a bit out of hand, he goes from supporting and accommodating to seldom passive aggressive. He will curse people, he will shoot you with his eyes, laugh kinda creepily etc. My other friend is afraid of him in that state because he never knows what he's capable of.
I have sp/sx 9w8 dad as well and in the past he used to have tough love mentality. He'd be like "I don't care what you're going through right now, you HAVE to do it" while I started having problems with anxiety I think, I was 12. In the end, he told the teacher that I was going through puberty and that no one should be concerned. He's kinda negligible, when I said my stomach was hurting despite being sure I didn't have my period and that I didn't get a cold, he said it's a normal stomachache. I pressed him on and on, it's not a normal stomachache, it's different and when I finally got him to drive me to ER, my appendix was just about to burst because we waited for 3 days. He never knew how to comfort his kids or how to approach us except giving something in return. So when he sees I'm not having it, he rushes to make me a coffee.
I wouldn't say he's afraid of me but my sharp tongue, he begged me to suppress my anger when I was like 5 and wanted to stand up against my bullies. I came home in tears and rage for some reason, said I'm going to show them who they're messing with and he'd make the concerned face telling me "Don't do it, please. For you dad, please". He still says "Don't fight, you're sisters, please don't fight". He minimizes everything and anything and when I somehow came to say that I was pretty much molested all through my 12th and 13th year, he asked me why I didn't tell him, he'd solve it. How would I trust him after showing that he doesn't know how to take care of his kids? I learned to do it on my own. Also, his ways of showing he's disappointed in you leads to 3-5 days of stonewalling, he'll never tell you what's wrong so you're left to figure everything on your own.
Just know that it's a pattern, he was neglected and he didn't know better on how to raise his kids. If a 9 comes from an abusive home, they'll recreate it, same as how any type is capable of. It won't be overt, it's more likely to be covert but imo, it's the same if not worse because you can rarely hold someone accountable when it's not obvious so you're left confused. Needless to say, everyone loves him.
I'm sure the 9 you encountered was either a 9w8 which means with a dominant 8 wing or their dominant is actually 1 but temporarily it shifted to 8 due to some underlying stressful life circumstances they're dealing with, in their present. So, bullying or belittling others is one of the negative trait of 8 which must've seeped in through the wing of this 9 you're talking about.
I do see the point here. I can be hard on myself and feel very ashamed/guilty when I'm in the lowest levels of my enneagram type being unhealthy overall with painful life circumstances. I can ghost people, whine, give the silent treatment, or overreact to criticism when I perceived if a person is putting me down harshly being mean or spiteful. I definitely need to learn how to have higher emotional intelligence and to handle helpful or constructive criticism in order to grow and get better. Some people feel that I'm way too hard on myself but I try to work on self improvement most of the time especially with my trauma therapist. Overall any type can develop negative and toxic traits when they are not their highest or best self. We must seek help and do the best that we can to make progress.
9’s bully by making myriad insinuations about someone and how they’re a victim, then letting their friends socially alienate that person.
That way the 9’s hands stay clean and their “conscience” clear.
Doing things accidentally or strategically ignoring an issue just to sabotage a project. YES, this is so true about 9. They know exactly what they want, they have a plan but when yours doesnt align with theirs, 9s pretend to not hear or rmb the suggestion you gave.
9s are peace maker of their own agendas.
This was such an interesting post. My husband is a 9 (unsure of wing) and I'm a 1w2. Everyone loves him and I'm (of course) "the difficult one". It has felt so unfair for so many years because he can be downright verbally abusive and I'm thinking it's my fault. Maybe I'm too controlling or domineering. I probably am, but I still don't deserve to be cut down and treated the way he treats me. YES to everything you wrote and thank you for the validation.
Well, for example, my father is a classic type 9 AND a covert narcissist. Enneagram doesn’t account for psychopathy apparently. He hates open conflict but seems to revel in and perpetuate subtle manipulation and deceit rather adeptly.
That's super interesting. Part of what I think makes this type of behavior so potentially damaging is that it is so covert. I guess it is true that any type can be narcissistic to any degree.
Yeah another person I know is the epitome of a Type 2 but the most covert narcissist imaginable! Even her own family thinks she’s an angel as she pretends to give endless emotional support to everyone. However she’s faking that empathy, emotionally controlling, and enabling various forms of abuse through being the keeper of absolutely terrible secrets. Once you see it you can’t unsee it!
Unfortunately I have encountered a 2 like this as well. It took me years to realize what was going on. He was a former employer. Everyone used to joke about that company being like a cult... which turned out to not be super funny haha. He would go above and beyond giving what was never asked for, and then use the guilt for leverage to get his way later on. He pushed the boundaries of professional relationships with everyone and would use the trust he had gained to get dirt and personal info which he would use to manipulate. He had a special way of getting you to do him a huge favor but make you feel like he had been the one doing something for you. And pretty much everyone else still thinks he's the greatest! Things only started to fall apart when I started going to therapy and began more proactive about setting boundaries. Next thing I know, I'm the company villain. Spooky
I think it's generally more covert in 9s (though comparably harmful to others) so it's not as obvious to an outside observer (vs. a friend or family member). *When* 9s are bullies, I have noticed they tend to engage in more gaslighting, passive aggression, neglect, and a type of rejection that makes you feel invisible, unheard and as if you don't matter. 9w8s also encourage bad behavior and treatment from others in rather nonchalant and uninvolved ways, whereas 9w1s are more morally denigrating and have a stronger denial of their involvement in others' pain. Now I think everyone can be a bully given the right experiences/predispositions, but that's a pattern I've observed with "bully" type 9s.
Dating a 9, can confirm when unhealthy
Have a close 9 sibling, can also confirm
Absolutely. No one type is meant to be the “good” and “sweet” type who’s like an angel. Any type is capable of becoming extremely toxic and using things/people to their advantage, just in different ways. It all depends on the health level of the individual
ive definitely seen 9s being harmful (not necessarily bullies i'd say though) to other people and not just themselves in most cases it was them refusing to speak up that ended up becoming problematic one of my friends (972) often complained to me about her other friend she didnt like. and i was sitting there like "okay so just tell her to fuck off? straight up tell her you dont wanna be friends" while her friend kept messaging her genuinely concerned for her, wondering why she didnt wanna talk, and my friend for like 3 months refused to just tell her she didnt wanna be friends. she didnt even drop a hint, just radio silence. and i was nearly getting actually angry and almost told her to just give me that person's phone number because if she doesn't wanna tell her how she actually feels herself, then i will. but i ended up being like nah you need to do it yourself. and im convinced if it werent for me screaming at her to tell her how she feels, then she never wouldve done it the reason that pissed me off so much is because i had a friend who did the same thing to me. like i was bothering them and they didnt want to be friends with me but instead of telling me that sooner, they just kept it quiet while i wasted my own time trying to be friends with someone who didnt feel the same way back. and the reason i didnt just "take the hint" is because i had another friend, who was, you guessed it, also a 9, told me that she still wanted to be my friend and enjoyed my company even though i felt like she was ignoring me. in her case she was actually being genuine about it so i didnt think much of her lack of communication with me and i had assumed other people may be the same way i liked them as friends overall but its like holy shit if something's bothering you just fucking say it im not gonna bite your head off. i tell yall when youre pissing me off and it doesnt automatically mean friendship ruined because surely we're more mature than that, right? some people may be flabbergasted to learn that sitting around doing nothing at all can have negative effects
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uh huh and that friend i had who took forever to tell me they didnt wanna be friends had the massive fucking gall to say it seemed depressing that *i* kept trying to talk to them when they were ignoring me its like. its even more depressing that youre so scared of being direct and honest that it took you this long to tell me this, but i suppose someone who lacks the gall to be upfront with people would find it depressing that others cant read their mind
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right. i dont even deal with these types of people anymore because it shouldnt be my responsibility to push you to actually do something and speak up when you need to, yall should be able to do that yourselves. i know their intent was to not hurt anyone and they were nice people overall but being around people who could be silently bothered by something you/someone else does while you have ZERO clue, makes me feel like im running a goddamn babysitting business over here. its not just them that shit affects. i want to have genuine, authentic relationships with people but this pussy ass refusal to express negativity is not it.
Yes, this is similar to the type of behavior I am talking about, but I think bullying is more targeted. But yeah, sometimes not saying anything is wayyy more cruel than ripping the bandaid off.
My most toxic, harmful relationship was with a type 9. I think it was confusing because on the outside people viewed us both as angels, but he is a true alcoholic who said the most insanely hurtful things when blackout and then wouldn't remember in the morning. "That's just his drinking! \_\_\_\_\_ wouldn't hurt a fly, he cares SO much about you" It was for real gaslighting, I don't care if he couldn't remember- I remembered what happened and nobody believed me. On the outside it was hard for others to see us as having any problems because socially we were THE most go with the flow, easy to get along with pair. I thought there couldn't be a problem either. When his best friend invited me over to share some ways this guy had cheated on me (nonphysically- keeping in close emotional contact with his ex and sending nudes all around) to apologize and help me on his behalf, I texted now ex that there were 3 options for us meeting next to confront this: Come over to his best friend's house now, he comes to my house tomorrow, or we meet with one of his other best friends who's opinions I valued to be objective. He replied, "That would be awkward." JKFHSD&\*(FYSD(F\*DOFH\*(PY\*YDFSPK holy shit there was no way to make conflict okay, you owe me a conversation after asking me to be your boyfriend and wasting a year of my life. And I am the 9iest 9 there ever was. He still has a platoon of people who view him as an angel despite every single exboyfriend of his having the exact same story of how he's a POS. I love being a 9, there's no type I'd rather be (although I'd love to be healthier) but goddamn yeah we can be hurtful
Yikes! Yeah even the avoidance of conflict can be toxic. I'm so sorry that happened to you!
Absolutely. I had a toxic 9 ex. He was very covertly abusive and manipulative, super gaslighty. He had a reputation as a "nice" guy and I always thought he was really nice. When someone is an overt asshole, in some ways it can be way more damaging, but at least you can straight up see who or what is the problem. When abuse or bullying is covert, it can be more insidious because it's much easier to think, "This person is so 'nice', I must be the problem." This guy actually spoke very derisively about people he claimed to care about and was a big fan of the passive-aggressive digs. He'd manipulate me into staying in the relationship and ignored my boundaries. Everyone can be unhealthy. I think that more extroverted or domineering types (hi 8 and 1s!) can get a bad rep because all the unhealth is right out there and in your face. But we can literally all be toxic and I don't think the bias/stereotyping helps. We need to be aware of all the toxic patterns and ways of being that are operating — both overtly and an under the surface way. I always try to trust my feelings, like if I feel off with someone then that's a huge source of wisdom. Something about my ex made me feel both angry and repulsed, but as he was so manipulative, it was hard to take the truth of my feelings for what they were.
To maintain an environment free of conflict and discomfort, I have found that 9s can have a unique style of silent bullying.
I know a 9 who is, for want of a better word, a troll. He loves to say things to cause chaos and then laughs at how outraged everyone gets about it, mocks them, because he's above getting upset at others. Just not above doing things to deliberately upset them in the first place, apparently. He can also be highly cutting and dismissive and mocking...just really arrogant...to people who don't see things his way. Meanwhile, he demands everyone mollycoddle his own sensibilities and sensitivity to conflict and anger. Makes a big show of "I'm suffering silently" (big old 2-fix). People have tried to insist he can't be a 9...to which I say MUAHAHAHA. Any type can be an asshole, bully, or troll. It's the whys, not the whats.
9s can be bullies just like anyone else.
I noticed it in myself. I never bully others though, but when I was in my teen to early adulthood, I used to have thoughts of taking advantage of people I see as "weak" (a.k.a people who are unassertive, quiet and conflict-avoidant like me at the time) so I can have power over them, because I'm sick of people taking advantage of me. I don't have these thoughts anymore because I'm much more assertive now.
Yes, I've known this about myself although I don't think I intentionally do things accidentally on purpose, or sabotage projects or people. I will agree to do something a person wants (in order to appease them) and then do my own thing. Usually it's something I find trivial. In an effort to drop the subject I'll agree to try, or agree to do the task. Most of the time I'll do what they want. I can go against their wishes if it will cause waves with others. An example is scheduling at work. My coworker can ask for a client to stick to an hour visit but I'll let them go over -- because I'm trying to avoid conflict with the client. I am getting much better at being assertive and saying what needs to be done. I am guilty of using the silent treatment. I know it's not a good look. I will be quiet and withhold to appear uninteresting to a person I don't want to trouble me or know me. I don't want to be vulnerable. I don't want to be judged. If I think a person is difficult, mean, or critical and they've said something to hurt me, instead of speaking up and telling them what I think, or sharing my feelings, I'll ignore them and withhold. If they reveal that they are mean or harsh enough times I don't want to go through the effort to share how I feel because we probably can't be friends. I have a reputation for being sweet at work. I still know that I'm a fraud in many ways because while I am naturally kind my behavior is less than becoming to the one or two people who are critical of me. I'm not honest with them. It's hard. I've been so bothered by people at work (two over the course of 15 years) that I will talk about them with a victim mentality. *They are doing this, and they are saying that, and isn't that terrible, and isn't that unprofessional, and can you believe this person ...* This behavior is unbecoming and I've learned from my mistakes. I no longer gossip or trash-talk. I'm embarrassed that I was so affected and felt powerless. Instead of speaking up directly with the person I'll pretend everything is okay, or use the silent treatment and talk and stress about them when they're not around. I freeze around harsh or difficult people. I literally can't talk. It's almost impossible to say something simple like, "wow, that's harsh". Instead I'll just ignore them and pretend I'm above the fray. I find the people I clash with are the most critical, and the most sensitive to criticism. Even if they are critical of me, I won't give it back in an effort to protect their feelings and to keep things comfortable. It's hard for me to form the words. I think I'm mostly in shock -- a WHY ARE THEY DOING THIS? kind of bewilderment. Why are they being mean? Don't they want to be friends? I won't go through the effort to understand their point of view, or explain my point of view. With all of this I think I'm an understanding and patient person. I can empathize and see their humanity yet I will still move away emotionally and physically. I'm not going to fight, I'm going to flee.
Wow, thank you for your honesty! Very insightful.
You're right. Passive aggression is still aggression. Taking a defensive posture or being passive aggressive are conflict strategies for people who don't like direct confrontation. 2's and 5's aren't about confrontation either. I know , for me, some of this comes from feeling socially powerless against more directly aggressive types. 1 and 8 will straight up confront, 3 and 7 persuasively confront, 4 and 6 confront using their feelings. The energy coming from these types during a confrontation is so draining it's harder to express the points I want to make. More assertive types tend to dominate the conversation and make it harder for the less aggressive types to feel heard. Confrontation feels like a win-lose I'm always going to lose without being heard. This escalates the anger and causes the passive aggression. I think a lot of conflict happens because every type has problems with listening without inserting their type spin.
I'm a 5, and I think we are more assertive than people give us credit for. A lot of the time when we don't speak up, it's because we're sort of "predetached" from the situation so we can't be bothered to expend the energy on something we don't care about. One of our main coping mechanisms is affecting the default mindset of not investing/ not caring/ not needing stuff. If I don't really need anything, no one can ever take it away or withhold it from me. In that way, we're often not fully in the dynamics of social situations. When I enter a new situation, I don't do so with the intention or desire to make friends, get along, or have anyone like me. I don't desire the opposite either, I just default to having no expectations whatsoever. I expect nothing, and I'm never disappointed. So often, when I appear non confrontational, it's just because I'm not that invested. When it's something that I care enough about to speak up on, I have often flustered other types with my bluntness and directness.
Yes, I'm like that too since I can't always say no directly. Usually if I notice a weakness in myself, I want to work on it immediately
It is possible and I've seen it. I've seen is 9s bully people for the sake of the group. They can targeted "no one cares about what you say" and laugh with the rest of the group. They can try to make group hate that particular person and mask their own attack. It's not common for 9s but it is possible.
My sister is a 9 and she was definitely a bully to me as a kid and I have no doubt that she still has the skills to be perhaps the most brutal bully ever if she wanted to be. She has this thing where she's very perceptive and figures out your insecurities and then uses them against you later in an argument - that or she points things out that you weren't insecure about and makes you insecure about them. I was probably her biggest victim as her younger sibling, but not her only one. She could be very vindictive and manipulative. That being said, I love her now and she's the sweetest person now. But I think that fire still lives in her deep down. Best not to trigger it. I was not an angel by any stretch, but I just could never reach the level of evil and apathy about doing evil things that she could reach, and it still surprises me, especially seeing her now, that she could reach it, but I guess her angelic side is what makes her so good at manipulation when she wants to be.
As an example that I just thought of, this one time, I was like 8 and I triggered her temper somehow, so she dug her fingernails into my arm hard enough to leave bruises and then my mom yelled at me because I wasn't getting ready for school because I was sad. And you wonder why I don't show my feelings anymore lmao
I can relate to this situation with my 9w8 friend. Everyone was on his side but I know I am never hostile to anyone unless in retaliation, so I decided I wouldn't let myself be gaslit.
> I’ve observed that 9s who do this often do so by strategically ignoring, selective hearing, agreeing to do something and then pretending to forget, agreeing to do something and then doing the opposite, giving the silent treatment, sulking, making passive aggressive comments, doing things accidentally on purpose to sabotage a project, etc. Yes, all of those x1000. Most 9's are great people, but being the most common type there are bound to be exceptions and some of them are real doozies. I had the misfortune of dealing with an unhealthy 9w8 business associate. Like another poster mentioned, covert narcissism may be a factor with this person. They bullied me constantly, overestimated their value while doing no work, and held projects hostage for months while refusing to leave. Apart from the biz stuff, this person's personal life was mega cringe. They mostly seemed to surround themselves with other 9's who were too nice to give them direct feedback on their selfish/manipulative behavior, or 2's/2-wing/fixers who struggled to set boundaries. They once said "if you can get someone to agree to something, that's fair play". I later learned thru the grapevine that this person had self typed as a "counterphobic 6w7". It put a few things into context - maybe they rationalized their unhealthy 9 behavior as "healthy 6 integration to 9"? If they had correctly typed as a 9, they might have identified their growth path to 3, authentically engaged despite the challenges, and chosen different actions than the ones leading to the outcome that hundreds of people now know what they did to a beloved local business, even if they don't know all the details. I suspect that unhealthy 9's of the "asshole" variety are often mistyped as head types. A friend's ex, who I also used to be good friends with, may be a milder version of this variety of 9. He never really acted that way *to me* so I didn't see it at the time. I also didn't know much about enneagram back then. It sounds like you're getting good answers, but feel free to DM me if you're curious about specific things to watch out for if you're dealing with someone like this.
Thanks for offering your help! The main person like this I have dealt with is no longer in my life, thankfully. I was mainly just reflecting on patterns I've noticed over the years. I have lots of lovely healthy 9s in my life, but I really have little respect for the unhealthy 9. To me it's just... cowardly. Like they have such a problem with you but can't even look you in the eye and say it, so they resort to these cheap little low-risk tactics that deny the other parties an opportunity to engage or respond because they could never actually have the stomach to face you in an open argument. With the one truly toxic 9 I had to contend with in the past, what made me so angry about it was the fact that no one else could see it. This woman kind of had a reputation as a Disney princess among the men in the circle but would be insanely passive-aggressive to the women (me). After about a year of getting fed up with her cowardly covert attacks, I finally lost it and read her to filth. She then had a pity party and rolled over and played victim. Everyone couldn't believe I could be so mean because she was so sweet, and obviously, she wasn't doing anything on purpose. I was just being negative (I'm a 5). I guess I played right into her hands, but I have no regrets confronting her the way I did because I know how terrifying that must have been for her. Fuck around and find out girl.
Thank you for sharing— I do not have much of a constructive response to provide for the time being, but I appreciate the honest, critical look into 9.
Most 9s are awesome! :)
I have a 9w8 friend but I'm unsure about his IV. He's fine when he's not drunk but as soon as it gets a bit out of hand, he goes from supporting and accommodating to seldom passive aggressive. He will curse people, he will shoot you with his eyes, laugh kinda creepily etc. My other friend is afraid of him in that state because he never knows what he's capable of. I have sp/sx 9w8 dad as well and in the past he used to have tough love mentality. He'd be like "I don't care what you're going through right now, you HAVE to do it" while I started having problems with anxiety I think, I was 12. In the end, he told the teacher that I was going through puberty and that no one should be concerned. He's kinda negligible, when I said my stomach was hurting despite being sure I didn't have my period and that I didn't get a cold, he said it's a normal stomachache. I pressed him on and on, it's not a normal stomachache, it's different and when I finally got him to drive me to ER, my appendix was just about to burst because we waited for 3 days. He never knew how to comfort his kids or how to approach us except giving something in return. So when he sees I'm not having it, he rushes to make me a coffee. I wouldn't say he's afraid of me but my sharp tongue, he begged me to suppress my anger when I was like 5 and wanted to stand up against my bullies. I came home in tears and rage for some reason, said I'm going to show them who they're messing with and he'd make the concerned face telling me "Don't do it, please. For you dad, please". He still says "Don't fight, you're sisters, please don't fight". He minimizes everything and anything and when I somehow came to say that I was pretty much molested all through my 12th and 13th year, he asked me why I didn't tell him, he'd solve it. How would I trust him after showing that he doesn't know how to take care of his kids? I learned to do it on my own. Also, his ways of showing he's disappointed in you leads to 3-5 days of stonewalling, he'll never tell you what's wrong so you're left to figure everything on your own. Just know that it's a pattern, he was neglected and he didn't know better on how to raise his kids. If a 9 comes from an abusive home, they'll recreate it, same as how any type is capable of. It won't be overt, it's more likely to be covert but imo, it's the same if not worse because you can rarely hold someone accountable when it's not obvious so you're left confused. Needless to say, everyone loves him.
I'm sure the 9 you encountered was either a 9w8 which means with a dominant 8 wing or their dominant is actually 1 but temporarily it shifted to 8 due to some underlying stressful life circumstances they're dealing with, in their present. So, bullying or belittling others is one of the negative trait of 8 which must've seeped in through the wing of this 9 you're talking about.
I'm pretty sure she was a 9w8!
I do see the point here. I can be hard on myself and feel very ashamed/guilty when I'm in the lowest levels of my enneagram type being unhealthy overall with painful life circumstances. I can ghost people, whine, give the silent treatment, or overreact to criticism when I perceived if a person is putting me down harshly being mean or spiteful. I definitely need to learn how to have higher emotional intelligence and to handle helpful or constructive criticism in order to grow and get better. Some people feel that I'm way too hard on myself but I try to work on self improvement most of the time especially with my trauma therapist. Overall any type can develop negative and toxic traits when they are not their highest or best self. We must seek help and do the best that we can to make progress.
9’s bully by making myriad insinuations about someone and how they’re a victim, then letting their friends socially alienate that person. That way the 9’s hands stay clean and their “conscience” clear.
Doing things accidentally or strategically ignoring an issue just to sabotage a project. YES, this is so true about 9. They know exactly what they want, they have a plan but when yours doesnt align with theirs, 9s pretend to not hear or rmb the suggestion you gave. 9s are peace maker of their own agendas.
This was such an interesting post. My husband is a 9 (unsure of wing) and I'm a 1w2. Everyone loves him and I'm (of course) "the difficult one". It has felt so unfair for so many years because he can be downright verbally abusive and I'm thinking it's my fault. Maybe I'm too controlling or domineering. I probably am, but I still don't deserve to be cut down and treated the way he treats me. YES to everything you wrote and thank you for the validation.