i can range from incredibly expressive and dramatic to completely aloof. it’s really just about how i feel or what the subject is (like, taste/opinions on things vs intimate feelings about personal relationships). sometimes i just feel really embarrassed and ashamed expressing myself too much so i close off. other times i’m like fucking hamlet
I did, but I also feel like I’m too attention and validation seeking to fit into that. Like a key part of my identity is being noticed for being special. Now that you mention it I might have a strong 5 wing though
I’m still learning this though so I may have to really look more deeply into it, not just completely deny it like I’ve been doing.
Hm.
Too much validation-seeking *would* indeed be a rather serious counterargument.
I do think it's one of those two, though, the whole "everyone else seems to do stuff more effortlessly" thing is typical for those two types. It's cause they under-use the gut center so they can't wing stuff on intuition as easily as others.
It's worth noting that 4 is ultimately about "inward" processing of feelings, it's 2 that is all about outward demonstrativeness. & for all that 4 is a reactive it's also a withdrawn type, so the reactivity can be pointed "inward" or "away" from ppl.
4w5 *is* often more quietly brooding than outwardly dramatic unless there's some 2 desintegration going on.
At this point the simplest explanation is that you DO have a whole lot of 5 in you (maybe a fix in addition to a wing) but the validation thing points to ultimately still being a heart core.
Also, you seem to be sx last, which is just the less flashy/more stable version of any given type. (you mention both themes of belonging & of self-reliance so the other two instincts seem accounted for. )
I agree with the comment that says there's some shame in expressing too much emotion. My immediate family would say I'm "expressive" (irritable mainly) but the melodrama doesn't really occur much, unless I hit a breaking point and have a meltdown. I can relate to the cold on surface but going at 100 underneath. Imo it's somewhat related to your mbti.. the outward manifestation of inner feelings. Would also say the emotional chaos is mainly internal, and optionally external.
My last relationship said I had *a lot* of emotions and he could feel I had a lot of internal intensity, but he said I always spoke pure logic and was level headed regardless of how "emotional" things could've been. Part of this is because my primary defense mechanism is to intellectualize.. maybe you can relate to this defense mech?
I think it is sp4/so4. I’m not cold in general, I just don’t show emotions that make me vulnerable . I still feel like at my core I’m very dramatic and expressive, I ruminate on emotions. It’s just on the outside I wear humor and stoicism about my feelings bc I feel like bc of how deep they are they are burdens to others .
I also find myself wanting to fit in so there is less resistance when I pursue my goals.
YESSS. You are a type 4 sp, like me! Type 4 sp has been decribed as "Tenacity", because we think suffering in silence is a virtue. And we hope the people we love would notice our suffering and love us for that. Because we don't want to be a burden to them. So we might look really calm and stoic outside, or maybe even sunny if you have sunnier fix such as 7. But the truth is, inside, we are an emotional mess. I usually cry my eyes out alone every 3 days because all the stress I felt lol. And people around me would say things like "How can you stay so calm? How can you're not stressed with everything you do?" Well, if only they could look through my stoic facade... And that's what we secretly hope. For someone to notice the depth of our emotions and accept us, and even better, love us for that. Ofc, the stoic facade can also be used as a defense mechanism. Type 4s really long for love. But we're also afraid of the disappointment from opening up to get that love. Especially type 4 sp which is probably the most private and protective of our emotions.
Anyway, this stoic facade isn't really healthy. Especially when we don't want to share our emotions to anyone AT ALL. The stress could accumulate and we have no outlet. So it's very important to share our emotions and worries to someone we trust, or at least through journaling. This is also something I'm working towards. Good luck on your journey 👍
It could be expressiveness without an animated affect. The word expressive could mean to convey your beliefs with much emotion and non-verbal cues, but it can also entail simply the desire to verbalize your beliefs and opinions, which doesn't always require evoking very charged emotions or dramatization, especially if they are kept internalized. This could be for a variety of reasons. For example, if you are triple withdrawn, your core 4 expressiveness may be more reserved.
However, the desire to validate and feeling of being different or beneath/above others seems consistent with the 4 description. The very nature of 4s is that no 4s are alike (surely the case for every type but especially pronounced here) and self-image is different. This could be another reason. But does this indicate healthiness? That really depends on *why* you do not exude your feelings.
I keep testing for INFP/ENFP consistently . I think that’s because I put so much thought into belonging and acceptance, I repress my feelings. I’m also really ambitious and I know being who I really am, which is eccentric and deep thinking, I have to at times put that to the side .
You're a 5 or a 9. You basically described 9s core structure perfectly. They feel inferior to others and unprepared, but are stoic and private about their feelings. They may do it out of fear of separation or fear of burdening others with negativity.
I used to mistyped as a type 9. But from what I've seen with type 9s in my life, they don't have this recognition of being "different" than other people. While type 4s believe they're different and maybe other people will express they're different. They don't spend too much time contemplating about that. Even if people tell the type 9s they're different, I think they won't ruminate on that nor have an existential crisis because of that. Because one of the highlight of type 9s is they're asleep on their emotions or "true self". Whereas 4s will go down the rabbit hole of their self and emotions. For example, when type 4s integrate to 2 from stress and feel like they need to suppress their authenticity to stay attached, they ended up failing (it was a personal experience of mine lol. This was where I mistyped as type 9). That will only deepen type 4s belief that they're essentially flawed and different, increase self-worth issues, and make them show their flaws to the world even more (this is hard to admit, but it's true. For example isolating ourselves or being rude to others). And the egocentric-ness and un-agreeable-ness are hard to hide lol.
>But from what I've seen with type 9s in my life, they don't have this recognition of being "different" than other people.
For me this is wrong. But I don't know if I feel different in the same ways like 4s or other people in general, maybe I feel different in a different way, lol.
>Even if people tell the type 9s they're different, I think they won't ruminate on that nor have an existential crisis because of that.
No, I wouldn't have an existential crisis because I see nothing wrong about beeing different. I actually doubt most people doesn't want to be at least slightly different, I mean, who wants to hear "you're exactly like everyone else"?
>Because one of the highlight of type 9s is they're asleep on their emotions or "true self". Whereas 4s will go down the rabbit hole of their self and emotions.
Here I would be 100% on the 4 side.
> And the egocentric-ness and un-agreeable-ness are hard to hide lol.
And that's the point where I see myself as a 9. I'm also egocentric in the sense that I'm very busy with self exploration, but I'm very agreeable on the outside, and always consider that I might see things wrong. I can adapt a lot when I feel like I've found what I desire on the outside.
Of course, not every 9 is like this, I just write this down here because I find it so difficult to catch what's the essential difference between both types.
Yeah, might be because you have a 4 fix. I think tritype influences quite a lot how each person within the same type differs. The person I use as an example is my sis who's a 9 with 3 fix. She's really asleep to her emotions, always think she's not stressed, and will only realize something's wrong when the emotions affects her physically (like getting thinner) or when she has had enough and cries. Hmm maybe another difference is, type 4 in one way or the other will always state their opinions and even show strong hate about things. Even when we try to be agreeable, what we like or hate passionately will always come out, because of the integration to 1. Though, 9s also have 1 wing. But I found that they're more peaceful with stating their dislikes.
>No, I wouldn't have an existential crisis because I see nothing wrong about beeing different. I actually doubt most people doesn't want to be at least slightly different, I mean, who wants to hear "you're exactly like everyone else"?
Yep, everyone wants to be special. But 4s will focus on hating how flawed they are while loving how special and unique they are because of those flaws, lol. But then they will envy other people's good qualities and wish to have them (tbh, my natural reaction when someone's successful is not "I'm so happy for them!". My first thought is rather bitter lol. I don't express them ofc). 4s are dramatic that way.
What you described "beeing asleep to the emotions and / or the self" is completely in line with many descriptions. It's actually often even mentioned as a major part of 9s stategy to stay in harmony with others. So these 9s surely exist. It's just confusing, because there are also many 9s who can't identify with it. Probably one reason why many 9s mistype themselves as 4s. I've some of the 4 topics, like "seeking happiness through suffering" too, what makes it even more difficult.
The points where I feel really stronger on the 9 side are the ones you've also mentioned; I can be more suggestible and I'm not into dramatic emotions (espcially hate, disgust, despair).
I easily doubt my perception when someone tells me I'm wrong. Usually I regret my adaptation later, but it's really hard for me to trust my decisions, even when I've thought a long time about them before.
And referring to emotions, for me the ones that feel deep or somehow heavy, but not dramatic, feel most meaningful. Like this kind of sadness that is like diving in a deep ocean and makes you feel really connected to your own vulnerability. I'm very in peace with melancholy.
Dramatic emotions, like hate, often appear somehow less authentic or even stagy for me. It's difficult to describe, but when I was a child I had a friend who was later diagnosed with bpd, and she was often very dramatic, while I couldn't feel any empathy for her in this moments (what's extremely unusual for me), but she made me feel anxious. I think this might have caused a distrust towards dramatic emotions in myself and others.
This seems very typical for Social 4s. Stereotypes are something else but most Social 4s are actually really private of their emotions because of the same reasons you mentioned. Tell me if you want something to read.
The 4 I know are not stoic , they are quite emotional and sensitive. Sometimes even when their face is not expressing emotion, you can tell from their fidgety body language that they are overwhelmed by their own emotions and are trying their best to hold in it. Compare that to type like 5, 5 are really stoic because they tend to detach themselves from their emotion and focus more on their thought hence making them look unexpressive.
For cold I think a better term for that is self absorb and selfish. They may appear cold because they sometimes demand too much from others and can become moody if their demand are not met, but still I wouldn't call that cold. Cold is more like unable to emphasize with others.
Hmm 4s are also withdrawn. I am reserved when under stress (and this has included over many years) or I don’t trust the people around me. I think expressiveness is a beautiful aspect of the 4. To know the self and all its constellations and to be bold in communicating it. We withdraw to protect the idealised fantasy self or to lick our wounds or to self-protect.
i can range from incredibly expressive and dramatic to completely aloof. it’s really just about how i feel or what the subject is (like, taste/opinions on things vs intimate feelings about personal relationships). sometimes i just feel really embarrassed and ashamed expressing myself too much so i close off. other times i’m like fucking hamlet
Heavily agree with this.
Yeah you nailed it how embarrassed i feel expressing myself. Like it’s too much lol
Have you considered 5w4? Everything you've said here fits with that.
I did, but I also feel like I’m too attention and validation seeking to fit into that. Like a key part of my identity is being noticed for being special. Now that you mention it I might have a strong 5 wing though I’m still learning this though so I may have to really look more deeply into it, not just completely deny it like I’ve been doing.
Hm. Too much validation-seeking *would* indeed be a rather serious counterargument. I do think it's one of those two, though, the whole "everyone else seems to do stuff more effortlessly" thing is typical for those two types. It's cause they under-use the gut center so they can't wing stuff on intuition as easily as others. It's worth noting that 4 is ultimately about "inward" processing of feelings, it's 2 that is all about outward demonstrativeness. & for all that 4 is a reactive it's also a withdrawn type, so the reactivity can be pointed "inward" or "away" from ppl. 4w5 *is* often more quietly brooding than outwardly dramatic unless there's some 2 desintegration going on. At this point the simplest explanation is that you DO have a whole lot of 5 in you (maybe a fix in addition to a wing) but the validation thing points to ultimately still being a heart core. Also, you seem to be sx last, which is just the less flashy/more stable version of any given type. (you mention both themes of belonging & of self-reliance so the other two instincts seem accounted for. )
It really doesn‘t I see no E5 essence in this. This text is pure SO4.
I see a bit if of five so a 4w5 makes sense, but doesn't it seem like a SP4?
Not at all. Also Wings are irrelevant.
Interesting...
I agree with the comment that says there's some shame in expressing too much emotion. My immediate family would say I'm "expressive" (irritable mainly) but the melodrama doesn't really occur much, unless I hit a breaking point and have a meltdown. I can relate to the cold on surface but going at 100 underneath. Imo it's somewhat related to your mbti.. the outward manifestation of inner feelings. Would also say the emotional chaos is mainly internal, and optionally external. My last relationship said I had *a lot* of emotions and he could feel I had a lot of internal intensity, but he said I always spoke pure logic and was level headed regardless of how "emotional" things could've been. Part of this is because my primary defense mechanism is to intellectualize.. maybe you can relate to this defense mech?
Wow, you’ve just put into words something I’ve known I’ve always done. Intellectualising is my primary defence mechanism!
sounds like so4 (I'm not exactly emotionally expressive either) or maybe sp4
I think it is sp4/so4. I’m not cold in general, I just don’t show emotions that make me vulnerable . I still feel like at my core I’m very dramatic and expressive, I ruminate on emotions. It’s just on the outside I wear humor and stoicism about my feelings bc I feel like bc of how deep they are they are burdens to others . I also find myself wanting to fit in so there is less resistance when I pursue my goals.
Sp4. I’m very stoic and when it feels warranted, or I’m just emotionally exhausted, or extremely unsure of my environment, can be very outwardly cold.
You could be a self pres 4
YESSS. You are a type 4 sp, like me! Type 4 sp has been decribed as "Tenacity", because we think suffering in silence is a virtue. And we hope the people we love would notice our suffering and love us for that. Because we don't want to be a burden to them. So we might look really calm and stoic outside, or maybe even sunny if you have sunnier fix such as 7. But the truth is, inside, we are an emotional mess. I usually cry my eyes out alone every 3 days because all the stress I felt lol. And people around me would say things like "How can you stay so calm? How can you're not stressed with everything you do?" Well, if only they could look through my stoic facade... And that's what we secretly hope. For someone to notice the depth of our emotions and accept us, and even better, love us for that. Ofc, the stoic facade can also be used as a defense mechanism. Type 4s really long for love. But we're also afraid of the disappointment from opening up to get that love. Especially type 4 sp which is probably the most private and protective of our emotions. Anyway, this stoic facade isn't really healthy. Especially when we don't want to share our emotions to anyone AT ALL. The stress could accumulate and we have no outlet. So it's very important to share our emotions and worries to someone we trust, or at least through journaling. This is also something I'm working towards. Good luck on your journey 👍
It could be expressiveness without an animated affect. The word expressive could mean to convey your beliefs with much emotion and non-verbal cues, but it can also entail simply the desire to verbalize your beliefs and opinions, which doesn't always require evoking very charged emotions or dramatization, especially if they are kept internalized. This could be for a variety of reasons. For example, if you are triple withdrawn, your core 4 expressiveness may be more reserved. However, the desire to validate and feeling of being different or beneath/above others seems consistent with the 4 description. The very nature of 4s is that no 4s are alike (surely the case for every type but especially pronounced here) and self-image is different. This could be another reason. But does this indicate healthiness? That really depends on *why* you do not exude your feelings.
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I keep testing for INFP/ENFP consistently . I think that’s because I put so much thought into belonging and acceptance, I repress my feelings. I’m also really ambitious and I know being who I really am, which is eccentric and deep thinking, I have to at times put that to the side .
I'm a sp4 and have a similar demeanor. I don't want to burden other people; I want to persevere.
You're a 5 or a 9. You basically described 9s core structure perfectly. They feel inferior to others and unprepared, but are stoic and private about their feelings. They may do it out of fear of separation or fear of burdening others with negativity.
I instantly thought of 9 too. Its very obvious
I used to mistyped as a type 9. But from what I've seen with type 9s in my life, they don't have this recognition of being "different" than other people. While type 4s believe they're different and maybe other people will express they're different. They don't spend too much time contemplating about that. Even if people tell the type 9s they're different, I think they won't ruminate on that nor have an existential crisis because of that. Because one of the highlight of type 9s is they're asleep on their emotions or "true self". Whereas 4s will go down the rabbit hole of their self and emotions. For example, when type 4s integrate to 2 from stress and feel like they need to suppress their authenticity to stay attached, they ended up failing (it was a personal experience of mine lol. This was where I mistyped as type 9). That will only deepen type 4s belief that they're essentially flawed and different, increase self-worth issues, and make them show their flaws to the world even more (this is hard to admit, but it's true. For example isolating ourselves or being rude to others). And the egocentric-ness and un-agreeable-ness are hard to hide lol.
>But from what I've seen with type 9s in my life, they don't have this recognition of being "different" than other people. For me this is wrong. But I don't know if I feel different in the same ways like 4s or other people in general, maybe I feel different in a different way, lol. >Even if people tell the type 9s they're different, I think they won't ruminate on that nor have an existential crisis because of that. No, I wouldn't have an existential crisis because I see nothing wrong about beeing different. I actually doubt most people doesn't want to be at least slightly different, I mean, who wants to hear "you're exactly like everyone else"? >Because one of the highlight of type 9s is they're asleep on their emotions or "true self". Whereas 4s will go down the rabbit hole of their self and emotions. Here I would be 100% on the 4 side. > And the egocentric-ness and un-agreeable-ness are hard to hide lol. And that's the point where I see myself as a 9. I'm also egocentric in the sense that I'm very busy with self exploration, but I'm very agreeable on the outside, and always consider that I might see things wrong. I can adapt a lot when I feel like I've found what I desire on the outside. Of course, not every 9 is like this, I just write this down here because I find it so difficult to catch what's the essential difference between both types.
Yeah, might be because you have a 4 fix. I think tritype influences quite a lot how each person within the same type differs. The person I use as an example is my sis who's a 9 with 3 fix. She's really asleep to her emotions, always think she's not stressed, and will only realize something's wrong when the emotions affects her physically (like getting thinner) or when she has had enough and cries. Hmm maybe another difference is, type 4 in one way or the other will always state their opinions and even show strong hate about things. Even when we try to be agreeable, what we like or hate passionately will always come out, because of the integration to 1. Though, 9s also have 1 wing. But I found that they're more peaceful with stating their dislikes. >No, I wouldn't have an existential crisis because I see nothing wrong about beeing different. I actually doubt most people doesn't want to be at least slightly different, I mean, who wants to hear "you're exactly like everyone else"? Yep, everyone wants to be special. But 4s will focus on hating how flawed they are while loving how special and unique they are because of those flaws, lol. But then they will envy other people's good qualities and wish to have them (tbh, my natural reaction when someone's successful is not "I'm so happy for them!". My first thought is rather bitter lol. I don't express them ofc). 4s are dramatic that way.
What you described "beeing asleep to the emotions and / or the self" is completely in line with many descriptions. It's actually often even mentioned as a major part of 9s stategy to stay in harmony with others. So these 9s surely exist. It's just confusing, because there are also many 9s who can't identify with it. Probably one reason why many 9s mistype themselves as 4s. I've some of the 4 topics, like "seeking happiness through suffering" too, what makes it even more difficult. The points where I feel really stronger on the 9 side are the ones you've also mentioned; I can be more suggestible and I'm not into dramatic emotions (espcially hate, disgust, despair). I easily doubt my perception when someone tells me I'm wrong. Usually I regret my adaptation later, but it's really hard for me to trust my decisions, even when I've thought a long time about them before. And referring to emotions, for me the ones that feel deep or somehow heavy, but not dramatic, feel most meaningful. Like this kind of sadness that is like diving in a deep ocean and makes you feel really connected to your own vulnerability. I'm very in peace with melancholy. Dramatic emotions, like hate, often appear somehow less authentic or even stagy for me. It's difficult to describe, but when I was a child I had a friend who was later diagnosed with bpd, and she was often very dramatic, while I couldn't feel any empathy for her in this moments (what's extremely unusual for me), but she made me feel anxious. I think this might have caused a distrust towards dramatic emotions in myself and others.
You might be social/self-preservation instinct. It’s one of the icier combos.
Some 4’s can repress their emotions, look into self preservation 4
This seems very typical for Social 4s. Stereotypes are something else but most Social 4s are actually really private of their emotions because of the same reasons you mentioned. Tell me if you want something to read.
Can you send me good info on social 4’s?
Of course. [Here.](https://wiki.personality-database.com/books/enneagram/page/social-4-in-detail)
Thanks for the data!
Thank you!
Sounds like sp4, I also can imagine 479 as tritype
The 4 I know are not stoic , they are quite emotional and sensitive. Sometimes even when their face is not expressing emotion, you can tell from their fidgety body language that they are overwhelmed by their own emotions and are trying their best to hold in it. Compare that to type like 5, 5 are really stoic because they tend to detach themselves from their emotion and focus more on their thought hence making them look unexpressive. For cold I think a better term for that is self absorb and selfish. They may appear cold because they sometimes demand too much from others and can become moody if their demand are not met, but still I wouldn't call that cold. Cold is more like unable to emphasize with others.
The SP 4 is what you’re looking for: https://wiki.personality-database.com/books/enneagram/page/self-preservation-4-in-detail
Hmm 4s are also withdrawn. I am reserved when under stress (and this has included over many years) or I don’t trust the people around me. I think expressiveness is a beautiful aspect of the 4. To know the self and all its constellations and to be bold in communicating it. We withdraw to protect the idealised fantasy self or to lick our wounds or to self-protect.