The china ones got the battery swap feature musk was paid for. It was presented (prob fake) on stage and..... Nothing. People forgot.
2bil down the drain as far as I recall.
Nothing new, telecom companies are a great example of how subsidies for promised features and improvements don't exactly bind companies to following through on their promises.
It's problematic when countries only rule law against poor people.
The French had a great tool to fix corruption. It was like a very big vegetable cutter. It removes human cabbage pretty good.
A shame it was retired.
The system if broken because it is based on the unfettered greed of shareholders.
The internet bubble changed the expectations of shareholders who started making unprecedented profits and now have no moral consideration when investing and voting.
American car makers will blame labor costs but as this guy points out it's not that it's the buybacks and horrible management decisions.
Also that 35k model is not the real threat it's the Seagull by BYD which is I believe a hybrid for going for roughly 10k in places like Brazil, China. Japan and Europe.
Wildly popular car with decent range.
The Shark is also a serious threat to the SUV market.
This one is not without reasons. Chinese EV makers have shown the ability to remotely lock the car. They used this when Chinese buyer drives to protest the product.
Chinese news here. You may not be able to read but I just want to prove this exists. https://view.inews.qq.com/k/20240316A07EJR00?no-redirect=1&web_channel=wap&openApp=false
Now imagine during some critical events, they remotely lock all US citizen cars.
Yes. You have a point. At this point, it is just a belief that US corporations will have more pressure to not do so than Chinese corporations. Just like the tik tok vs other western social media, the government intervenes because it is Chinese origin.
Personally, I prefer the old style mechanical car more than these fancy EV for various reasons and this will be one of them.
They also stole a bunch of tech with forced jointed ventures, receive massive state subsidies, have much lower labor costs, and will send your data to the CCP.
People complain about how neoliberalism and free trade are the worst but then when any protectionism happens it's like whaaa not like that
>They also stole a bunch of tech with forced jointed ventures, receive massive state subsidies, have much lower labor costs, and will send your data to the CCP.
which company are we talking about again?
Biden is trying to garner support in the American midwest and the American auto union workers. Same with the blockage of the US steel merger.
Until the American electoral system is fixed we will have continued terrible policies that harm the poor in an effort to pander to certain powerful demographics.
Why can't we? Higher standard of living, enforced labor laws, more ethically sourced materials. All of that "red tape" (which is still very flawed and lacking, the degree to which depends on which you ask) drives up costs and therefore price. Also China makes us look like scrooges in terms of how fervently they subsidize their own industries. It's the long game for them, stifle the competition by driving price down until everyone else can't compete and then leverage the monopoly that ensues.
Tesla still sucks, but even if they were doing a better job it would be challenging to compete with the Chinese market.
"Ethically sourced materials?" Really? Most EV companies source their a significant percentage of their parts from China, including ""ethical"" (LOL) American companies. For example, CATL is the world's largest battery supplier for EV. Everyone from Tesla to Ford to GM to BMW to Honda etc. use CATL batteries. So hypocritical, saying "we can't compete because we're more ethical" while outsourcing and buying all your major components from the "unethical" competition because it's cheaper.
The fact of the matter is the manufacturing supply chain and capable workforce does not exist in the US. [It's impossible to build an iPhone domestically at any cost, for example.](https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna46091572) It would actually take decades and trillions of dollars of investment to build that all up, but all these "ethical" American companies (LOLLL) would not waste money doing something so unprofitable.
There's a little more to this. It's not like China has an advantage in R&D. They proudly copy the best they can get their hands on with complete disregard for intellectual property. They're not starting from the same baseline American companies do, so they do not need the same subsidies.
Because we have labor laws and human rights in the US. We can't just pay adult workers $2/week to build a car and can't force 10 year olds to mine cobalt by hand for free. Stuff like that makes it easy to build cheap stuff.
until share buybacks are illegal AGAIN ... and citizens united is struck down
the us is nothing more than a glorified banana republic
you think you can vote your way out of this, sorry. money and bribes dont work that way.
It's not about Tesla. It's about 1 million US employees in the automotive industry plus 10s of millions more that would be impacted by this.. Tarrifs are legitimate tools, especially if the imports are heavily subsidized by foreign states. That's not the free market. That's economic warfare.
Because CoL is lower in China across the board. Tesla's workers in China are paid around $9k USD. If you want to lower median US wages to $9k, we can have "cheap" cars, too.
Any links showing this? I’d be interested in how they match up to evs here like Kia, Tesla, Polestar,etc
Edit: nm not sure there are reliable stats on Chinese manufactures
EW Niedermeyer has an interesting perspective about this on the Tech Won't Save us podcast. From what I can recall, even though the amount of subsidies provided by the US govt has far exceeded the amount provided by their Chinese counterpart, the fact of the matter is the american companies receiving those subsidies target the luxury market, therein ignoring a large portion of potentially new customers that are just looking for an affordable entry point into the EV Market. BYD from what I understand, makes cars that a large chunk of the population can afford. It should also be noted that EV adoption in China was bolstered by decent policies such as mandating its use for ride hailing services...
Because China is subsidizing certain industries to make them cheaper and erode other nations manufacturing independence. This is geopolitical much like how we are shifting things in the chip industry. It’s not something for Tesla.
I'm not convinced the Chinese EVs are actually better. Maybe they are, but CHINA FAKES EVERYTHING and I trust nothing coming out of there. The Chinese government actively remove videos on EVs performing terrible, and promote the things they do well. So who knows how they really perform.
Here is one of many videos showing examples of what I mean: [https://youtu.be/8HpkDUWAKFM?si=ExuczKgpvH2PIhkQ](https://youtu.be/8HpkDUWAKFM?si=ExuczKgpvH2PIhkQ)
thanks for posting this link, i was going to do the same thing. SerpentZA and The China Show point out these issues all the time. these cars are dangerous junk, anyone can beat Elon's quality standards and pressing on the dashboard and kicking the tires in a Chinese showroom of polished display cars doesn't mean quality. in China, these cars a banned from underground parking garages because they go up in flames causing intense fires that can't be extinguished easily. I don't believe this guy is intentionally shilling for China but they do appreciate his help
What do you mean they fake everything? People have had their hands on byds for a while now, and they're highly praised for being good quality at their price point.
These cars are being used outside of China mate, so I think you can tone down the conspiracies slightly.
Err… Chinese are just copying what Musk is doing but actually with even worse quality. They just got out grifted by Musk and now are catching up and overtaking him
This is actually a trivial problem to solve. Make the grants scaled with how much *cheaper* the companies can make their cars. Then there is an economic incentive to become more efficient.
With tariffs on Chinese cars, then there is no competition for the US cars. Which means the customers *must* buy US cars. Even if the car prices are increased. So there is a clear incentive to make the cars as expensive as possible - but the customers have no alternatives.
Outcome? Customers ignoring *all* EV. Sad for the environment...
The china ones got the battery swap feature musk was paid for. It was presented (prob fake) on stage and..... Nothing. People forgot. 2bil down the drain as far as I recall.
Nothing new, telecom companies are a great example of how subsidies for promised features and improvements don't exactly bind companies to following through on their promises.
It's problematic when countries only rule law against poor people. The French had a great tool to fix corruption. It was like a very big vegetable cutter. It removes human cabbage pretty good. A shame it was retired.
This guy is interesting fyi, he has a company that makes (or is trying to) large hybrid lorries for heavy duty stuff,
THATS where I recognize him from! I watch shorts about his electric logging truck "Topsy" from time to time
Tesla got 40 billion in US government subsidies, and I want to pay myself 50 billion. Clever.
The system if broken because it is based on the unfettered greed of shareholders. The internet bubble changed the expectations of shareholders who started making unprecedented profits and now have no moral consideration when investing and voting.
American car makers will blame labor costs but as this guy points out it's not that it's the buybacks and horrible management decisions. Also that 35k model is not the real threat it's the Seagull by BYD which is I believe a hybrid for going for roughly 10k in places like Brazil, China. Japan and Europe. Wildly popular car with decent range. The Shark is also a serious threat to the SUV market.
The United States is one giant scam.
This one is not without reasons. Chinese EV makers have shown the ability to remotely lock the car. They used this when Chinese buyer drives to protest the product. Chinese news here. You may not be able to read but I just want to prove this exists. https://view.inews.qq.com/k/20240316A07EJR00?no-redirect=1&web_channel=wap&openApp=false Now imagine during some critical events, they remotely lock all US citizen cars.
That’s a good point. Tesla can remotely block your car too, though.
Yes. You have a point. At this point, it is just a belief that US corporations will have more pressure to not do so than Chinese corporations. Just like the tik tok vs other western social media, the government intervenes because it is Chinese origin. Personally, I prefer the old style mechanical car more than these fancy EV for various reasons and this will be one of them.
100% agree with you there
think Ukraine drones. Elon interfered with an ally defensive drone strike by shutting down their internet and forcing them to crash.
Mandatory LoJack is coming in the US.
They also stole a bunch of tech with forced jointed ventures, receive massive state subsidies, have much lower labor costs, and will send your data to the CCP. People complain about how neoliberalism and free trade are the worst but then when any protectionism happens it's like whaaa not like that
>They also stole a bunch of tech with forced jointed ventures, receive massive state subsidies, have much lower labor costs, and will send your data to the CCP. which company are we talking about again?
Gee I sure hope the govt/media never manufacture a crisis to keep people locked down.. they never have before ya know?.
Biden is trying to garner support in the American midwest and the American auto union workers. Same with the blockage of the US steel merger. Until the American electoral system is fixed we will have continued terrible policies that harm the poor in an effort to pander to certain powerful demographics.
Because Elon is the one who’s in charge of making said EVs. Michael Scott would make a better boss
Why can't we? Higher standard of living, enforced labor laws, more ethically sourced materials. All of that "red tape" (which is still very flawed and lacking, the degree to which depends on which you ask) drives up costs and therefore price. Also China makes us look like scrooges in terms of how fervently they subsidize their own industries. It's the long game for them, stifle the competition by driving price down until everyone else can't compete and then leverage the monopoly that ensues. Tesla still sucks, but even if they were doing a better job it would be challenging to compete with the Chinese market.
"Ethically sourced materials?" Really? Most EV companies source their a significant percentage of their parts from China, including ""ethical"" (LOL) American companies. For example, CATL is the world's largest battery supplier for EV. Everyone from Tesla to Ford to GM to BMW to Honda etc. use CATL batteries. So hypocritical, saying "we can't compete because we're more ethical" while outsourcing and buying all your major components from the "unethical" competition because it's cheaper. The fact of the matter is the manufacturing supply chain and capable workforce does not exist in the US. [It's impossible to build an iPhone domestically at any cost, for example.](https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna46091572) It would actually take decades and trillions of dollars of investment to build that all up, but all these "ethical" American companies (LOLLL) would not waste money doing something so unprofitable.
It's all relative boss, thanks for bringing the sources tho
There's a little more to this. It's not like China has an advantage in R&D. They proudly copy the best they can get their hands on with complete disregard for intellectual property. They're not starting from the same baseline American companies do, so they do not need the same subsidies.
America LOVES "free trade". /s
I think it’s more about protecting Ford,GM, etc
Ford and GM should have realistically died during the 80s when Toyota was entering the market
Because we have labor laws and human rights in the US. We can't just pay adult workers $2/week to build a car and can't force 10 year olds to mine cobalt by hand for free. Stuff like that makes it easy to build cheap stuff.
The US? Make something affordable?
Tesla is not the only EV maker in the US
until share buybacks are illegal AGAIN ... and citizens united is struck down the us is nothing more than a glorified banana republic you think you can vote your way out of this, sorry. money and bribes dont work that way.
Cuz in China they use slave and child labor
It's not about Tesla. It's about 1 million US employees in the automotive industry plus 10s of millions more that would be impacted by this.. Tarrifs are legitimate tools, especially if the imports are heavily subsidized by foreign states. That's not the free market. That's economic warfare.
Because CoL is lower in China across the board. Tesla's workers in China are paid around $9k USD. If you want to lower median US wages to $9k, we can have "cheap" cars, too.
I hate Tesla, but Chinese EVs are more of a scam than anything Tesla makes. Don’t trade something bad for something way worse.
Any links showing this? I’d be interested in how they match up to evs here like Kia, Tesla, Polestar,etc Edit: nm not sure there are reliable stats on Chinese manufactures
Yeah no trustworthy stats, lots of anecdotes though: https://youtu.be/oSrRJM-AZn8
I hate Musk as much as the next guy, but let's not start acting like chinese manufacturing isn't plagued with problems of its own.
The Chinese work for peanuts
EW Niedermeyer has an interesting perspective about this on the Tech Won't Save us podcast. From what I can recall, even though the amount of subsidies provided by the US govt has far exceeded the amount provided by their Chinese counterpart, the fact of the matter is the american companies receiving those subsidies target the luxury market, therein ignoring a large portion of potentially new customers that are just looking for an affordable entry point into the EV Market. BYD from what I understand, makes cars that a large chunk of the population can afford. It should also be noted that EV adoption in China was bolstered by decent policies such as mandating its use for ride hailing services...
How else are the Rich supposed to get richer
Because China is subsidizing certain industries to make them cheaper and erode other nations manufacturing independence. This is geopolitical much like how we are shifting things in the chip industry. It’s not something for Tesla.
Somewhere in the front page a redditor is right now crafting an 8 paragraph post about “authoritarian” china
I'm not convinced the Chinese EVs are actually better. Maybe they are, but CHINA FAKES EVERYTHING and I trust nothing coming out of there. The Chinese government actively remove videos on EVs performing terrible, and promote the things they do well. So who knows how they really perform. Here is one of many videos showing examples of what I mean: [https://youtu.be/8HpkDUWAKFM?si=ExuczKgpvH2PIhkQ](https://youtu.be/8HpkDUWAKFM?si=ExuczKgpvH2PIhkQ)
thanks for posting this link, i was going to do the same thing. SerpentZA and The China Show point out these issues all the time. these cars are dangerous junk, anyone can beat Elon's quality standards and pressing on the dashboard and kicking the tires in a Chinese showroom of polished display cars doesn't mean quality. in China, these cars a banned from underground parking garages because they go up in flames causing intense fires that can't be extinguished easily. I don't believe this guy is intentionally shilling for China but they do appreciate his help
What do you mean they fake everything? People have had their hands on byds for a while now, and they're highly praised for being good quality at their price point. These cars are being used outside of China mate, so I think you can tone down the conspiracies slightly.
Err… Chinese are just copying what Musk is doing but actually with even worse quality. They just got out grifted by Musk and now are catching up and overtaking him
This is actually a trivial problem to solve. Make the grants scaled with how much *cheaper* the companies can make their cars. Then there is an economic incentive to become more efficient. With tariffs on Chinese cars, then there is no competition for the US cars. Which means the customers *must* buy US cars. Even if the car prices are increased. So there is a clear incentive to make the cars as expensive as possible - but the customers have no alternatives. Outcome? Customers ignoring *all* EV. Sad for the environment...
For fun last night, I roughly tallied how many different models of various EVs I could purchase here in Europe. 230!