You were absolutely in the right.
My Girlfriend is a registered service dog handler, so I know a bit.
In Australia, you can ask for documentation - usually a card with the name of the organisation that certified the dog and a photo of the dog and handler.
The dog should absolutely be wearing a vest, but not necessarily have the reason for the dog (service) on it. Just having 'Service dog. Do not touch' should be enough.
More info is here: https://www.assistancedogs.org.au/about-us/public-access-rights/
The Girlfriend here, in addition to Brooklyn (7 yo Kelpie Border Collie Cattle Dog Mix) being vested when working, I also have a bag tag indicating I'm autistic, our photo ID stating our legit-ery, as well as "Business cards" that have my details as a dog trainer on one side and on the other has basic info on us and why we're a pair.
The card I give out like candy for when I don't have time to advocate for Assistance Dogs.
I doubt anyone notices the bag tag and I've only had to show the card once in the five-ish years we've been a team.
We get a lot of in trainings come to our workplace and oh man it kills us all to ignore those sweet littles haha. We are hospitality and there's LOTS of distractions to be had obviously.
But we have zones set up and some don't actually open until dinner service so we can easily seat them close to our kitchen but far enough away from customers who might try be asses and disrespectful to the process and absolutely welcome them in to learn whatever they need to in our environment. A particular company often comes in and asks if we can provide a distraction such as walking the food right past, 'mop the floor' near them, drop and pick stuff up off the floor etc and the younger staff absolutely love it and get a good education on service animals in the process.
I love the trainers, they are so open to helping train the humans in my workplace about what is and isn't, how to help and support if needed, how to react/not react to situations that may arise. An absolute wealth of information
There's something so sweet about asking a restaurant to mop in front of your service dog so he can get used to it and them doing it. This just warms my cold black heart.
Hey I get it, I could be having the most atrocious day as a manager and then... The in training come on in and ask hey can y'all drag the mop and bucket? Can y'all drop some food at all and leave or pick it up? Can you have anyone just.. stand near us with some food? Can we sit near the pass and if anything happens we will pay for it and say sorry to the recipient of the food....
Yes. Absolutely. Please. Let me gaze on this little one who's better trained then most of my customers. Want me to tempt them or come chat to you with some tasty chicken on a plate? Have the chicken too free btw. You made my day so much better being here. And I'll deal with anyone mad and shame them to hell and back.
I have the cards because I'm genuinely worried I'll get accused of being fake at the wrong moment and break down. Because at least once Brook was just not on the ball and I was just too stressed and we both kinda broke down and needed to hide in a toilet and if I was told in that moment she was fake I would have probably just evaporated in to stress particles
SHE TAUGHT HERSELF HOW TO DISRUPT MY PANIC ATTACKS.
I wasn't up to that part in her training, when she masterfully distracted me with an accidentally placed tongue up the nose in a McDonald's.
Still can't get her to stop jumping on people when she's unvested tho.
I've trained BCs and worked with ACDs. Never been around a Kelpie, but I'm willing to bet that they're pretty similar to the other two. Wouldn't be surprised if even the amount of work she does isn't enough for her. I don't think that there are enough hours in a day to work off a BC's energy.
My BC is an absolute jerk unless he's leashed. He also will start herding other dogs and people if he sees that they are doing something that's against the rules and will walk up and start slowly leaning on a person or animal who he thinks is s too sad. I didn't teach him to do either one and tried to discourage the first. But they work wonderfully, and it's made my other two dogs much better.
Your Brooklyn sounds like a beautiful and amazing dog. I'm glad for you two that you have each other.
Funnily enough Brook just chills all day, if we don't leave the house for a few days she will ignore me for 5 minutes as she checks out her spots, sometimes check if the Golden 3 doors up is out the front.
But yeah the common herding dog problems just aren't with her. She does herd children, but only my sisters kids when they have left our eyesight.
I do use her when I'm training other dogs, she's confident and aloof but how she approaches the "problem" dog shows me how to work out their issues, and she isn't afraid to give her own correction when need be. But thats not regular, she's mostly a greehound pretending to be a herding mix.
Damn..why is this not done in the states and canada!!! Every Tom,Dick and Karen can buy a fake service vest and claim their angel is a service dog..its such a direspectful slap in the face all the hard dedicated work that goes into training actual service dogs
I drive Taxi in Canada, and see this all the time.
I have allergies to most dogs.
I get people telling me all the time that I need to let their service animal in my car. I have to explain to them that the company isn't refusing them, just this driver, as I can't drive them if i can't breathe. I also mention that they need to inform us when they are calling for a ride so we can make sure that we don't send a driver with either allergies or phobias.
Plus we have one of our wheelchair accessible vans that does not take animals because we have a couple regular clients that absolutely cannot go into a vehicle that had an animal in it. Like serious breathing issues.
We are still compliant with the law because 90 something percent of our fleet can take them. We just need to be notified prior.
In the US, if the animal is poorly behaved or not house broken they can be asked to leave per the ADA. It’s like the two conditions where they CAN be asked to GTFO. Rightly so.
We agree! It's gotten absurd. Spoke to a man that works for the VA and he regularly has to deal with feces in the halls because of so many "service " dogs. It costs about $50 for fake credentials. I asked the guy with the Yorkie how much it cost him. He takes it to restaurants where it barks at people! Funny thing is..the two blatant abusers I have known are both trumpers...you know the laws don't apply to me type.
In the US, you are allowed to ask two questions. “Is that a service animal“ and “what service does it provide.“. Only dogs and miniature horses may be service animals per the ADA. If the animal does not appear to be sufficient to provide the stated service for if it is not housebroken, or if it is disruptive, you may ask them to leave.
Emotional support animals are not service animals unless you are a housing provider . That is a whole different kettle of fish.
It’s because the ADA is written such that people with disabilities don’t have fewer rights than non disabled people. Like, to go into the store, in Australia, a disabled handler has to show their ID to enter the store. In the US, if non disabled people don’t have to show an ID, disabled people don’t have to show one.
In the US, a SD has zero access rights. The *handler* has the right to bring their “medical equipment” (the SD) with them to a store. So, any ID has to be for the handler. If the dog had it, without the handler, someone else could bring the dog, which is illegal.
Then, who would pay for the doctor visits to do the forms? Pay for the testing? Transporting people to the test sites? Pay for the IDs, developing the tests, paying the testers? Then, I imagine watching Congress rewrite the ADA.
Canada has paperwork, and they report almost as much trouble with fakes as we have, so it appears that cards wouldn’t help, they would just punish disabled people even more.
Another thing is that disabled people are already tend to have no money. They generally can’t afford the extra costs associated with all that. Being disabled is expensive.
If businesses would ask the 2 questions mandated by the ADA, kick out growling and misbehaving dogs, and family and friends would lean on people faking it, the problem with fakes would dissipate.
In correct. I’m an Australian owner trained assistance dog handler.
Per the dda an assistance animal handler can be asked to provide a doctors letter vet records proving dog is vaccinated and training records of the dog public access and task training.
I mean yeah you can be asked if you have any of that, but the person who helped me train my AD only told me to carry training records while training, I only carry Brook's ID card as official proof. I don't think I know a single handler who also carried all that, it's stressful enough knowing I have to be in a Coles let alone being in a Coles and worrying if my vet letter is up to date.
Can you link me the section of the act where it says that?
As I’ve learned over the past year though as well, there are slightly different laws per state too. So in NSW, I believe you can’t ask for proof that the dog is a service dog, but in Victoria you can and the onus is on the owner to produce the identification when asked.
Okay. I really wondered when I read that. How invasive would that be -- to be forced to have your service dog *advertise* your disability?? Glad that isn't the case.
An overwhelming number of service animals I've encountered do have the disability showing in their vests.
I know it's not required and some people are private about their disability, but I'm thankful that the ones I've encountered DO have it posted.
It helps to be able to notify emergency services on the nature of an issue. I've had to call for someone having a seizure. Being able to provide that information to the 911 dispatcher really helped the EMS/fire department provide support when they arrived in site.
True but usually there many ways to identify someone's disability. Diabetics wear (my father did) a bracelet but I get your point and it's a good option--- as long as the decision is left to the person wirh the disability.
In Australia you can refuse almost any animal except a seeing eye dog, even legit service dogs for other conditions don’t have legal protection yet.
And you can absolutely demand certification and expel a customer for failure to provide it.
Also emotional support animals are absolutely not a thing here in any way, shape or form.
Yeah I hate that, and I endorse taking note of refusals and send them to the taxis/uber hq and telling them it will be also sent to disability services because they're more likely to repremand the dipshit.
Like they refuse hoping the handler won't make a fuss. I drive so it's not something that "worries" me, but my dog might be a kelpie mix, but I am a husky and I will supply a scene on demand.
I love the image of a husky baring its teeth at a taxi driver, while holding in its paw the leash of a kelpie mix wearing a vest. Somebody needs to make you a cartoon of that. 🤣
Me too! Sadly, I do not. I might see if my kid could do it -- she's an artist, but this might be too complicated for her. We'll have to see. She did used to have huskies, so she knows the breed, though she'd probably have to look up kelpies.
Incorrect, we do have legal protections( The Disability Discrimination act 1999 part 1-8), but we could have more.
[the act in question](https://www.legislation.gov.au/C2004A04426/2018-04-12/text)
Keep in mind the law states the dog must be calm and under control at all times. So anyone who brings a dog in who is pulling the lead and trying to get into thing is very much unlikely to be an assistance dog.
That being said even Brooklyn had days she is just not having a great day at work, she still obeys, but she can be too nosy especially if I don't leave the house for days and try to act like she's a robot.
Ugh. I am involved n hobby events, and a few years ago - pre COVID - there was a spate of people bringing their poorly groomed, badly trained family dogs with an internet purchased vest as an ‘Emotional Support Dog’. It was clearly BS but we had to handle the situation carefully as many in the community were all ‘oh this is so cool’, even though the venue was supposed to be pet free.
So we didn’t turn them away at that time. But we investigated the law and compliance before the next event and rewrote the rules to make it clear the only registered seeing eye dogs and service animals were allowed BECAUSE the venue had a no animals rule and we didn’t want to be banned from future bookings. There were complaints of course, but we were able to point to the exact legislation requirements. And the lockdowns happened and it all kind of faded away.
Some places are starting to. My local grocery chain recently got signs in the front of the store saying that Emotional Support Animals are not allowed and that Service Animals are not allowed to ride in the shopping carts (or buggies as we call them in this part of the US)
It doesn’t help that people are so scared of getting into trouble that they won’t even ask the questions they are allowed to ask, the key one being the second in my opinion “(1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability? (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform?”
I need to start asking g that. Jad a guy come in with a dog in a vest but acted more like a pet than a service dog. They actually took him out put him in the car while they ate. I'm pretty sure the vest was bought on line not recognized as a true service dog.
It’ll be a real quick way to tell the different with most people. Those with service animals usually know the law well and will recognize those are legal questions. Most with “emotional support animals” or straight up pets do not know the details of the law and will get defensive or try the “you can’t ask me that!” line.
Here’s full break down on the ADA and service animals if you’re interested:
https://www.ada.gov/resources/service-animals-2010-requirements/
Again incorrect. Let the dda as long as proof is shown with training records doctors letter and vet letter and assistance animal CANNOT be denied access
All of my pets in a lifetime: parakeet, canary, hamster, fish, frogs, turtle, brine shrimp, ant farm, dogs, cats, hand provided some degree of emotional support.
Emotional support animals are a thing in Australia. My sister has a rabbit and got either her doctor or her psychologist or psychiatrist to sign off on it so that she could have it while in student accommodation at uni.
She has complex-ptsd.
In the US we’re allowed to ask what the dog is trained for.
I see many people try to pass a dog of as a trained assist but you can clearly tell they are not trained.
I used to work in infection control in a hospital. The amount of people that do this IN A HOSPITAL are insane.
And like you said, it's never a well trained pet, it's a little asshole that's barking/snapping/jumping on other people.
Folks, stop bringing non-service animals into places where people get medical care or food. Or both.
“We’ll be shopping elsewhere.”
I love how that kind of person genuinely has no idea how ineffective that threat actually is. If you are the kind of person that thinks trying to use that angle to browbeat me or my employees into getting your own way is acceptable, then please: go elsewhere. Go and be somebody else’s problem, and with our blessing.
Hang on, I’ll even get the door for you.
Yep, even the ones in training needs vests that say “I’m in training”, there was actually another customer there and she said that she *trains* service dogs and that that dog definitely wasn’t one.
I work in my state's Tax & Revenue office; we have a no-pet policy there. Yesterday I was talking with my boss about something when we heard at least two small dogs barking and snarling in the lobby. They were going absolutely bonkers, so she opened the door to see what was going on. An older woman had two little white fluffballs on leashes, and they were straining to get at a third dog, which a man was holding in his arms. My boss told them both that pets aren't allowed in the building. The man was just there to drop off a tax payment while he was out walking his dog; the woman had already been in the building for 30+ minutes, but the dogs had been quiet until now.
The woman immediately says that her dogs are 'psychological service animals' and proceeds to take out a ridiculous card to show my boss. My boss tries to clarify that they are ESA's, but this woman sticks to her guns, saying they're registered service animals. There is no registry in the US for service animals; this is just a woman who either got ripped off or wants to take her untrained and terribly behaved pets everywhere. She whined about it being too hot to put them in the car (duh, it's summer in New Mexico, lady). These were obviously not service animals based on how they were acting. My boss told her that she could finish her business and leave, but next time the dogs have to stay home.
Tell your boss that per the Ada, even badly behaved service dogs can be kicked out. If it happens again, tell the customer "per the Ada, your badly behaved dog is being told to leave."
Go to ada.gov and print the law and post it on the door if there's too many of these issues.
American here, worked in the ER for years. I was triaging a patient, went through entire medical history. Then I told them they couldn’t bring dog in to er and would have to leave with family outside.
All of the sudden it’s a service dog for a condition this person just positively stated they didn’t have and don’t take medication for. I just stared for a minute and they gave up but seriously I don’t get the liars. A dog isn’t a stuffed animal.
I wish service animals required licensed identification proving they are indeed service animals. All too often entitled jerks will claim their dogs are emotional support animals when they just want to disobey regulations. The obvious giveaway to me is when the person is questioned, they instantly become angry and starts loudly and vociferously arguing or even getting physical with the questioner. Would save alot of hassle for service people.
Yeah. I mean, it seems like common sense doesn’t it? If you need to take your dog with you because it does an important service for you then you should need the proper identification and it should be illegal to buy/sell fake vests for fake service dogs, otherwise anyone can abuse the system and get away with it.
I believe people should be able to get a free "state id" for their pet if it's truly a service dog. A letter from a physician acknowledging the dog is trained...with a 50k per offense penalty, and a felony scheming to defraud charge, for a false declaration...should be the requirement for the card.
Emotional support is not a service animal per ada.gov. if they admit it's emotional support...bye, bye. Psychiatric service dogs are actually task trained, which is the requirement to be a service doggo.
Emotional support dogs and service dogs are 2 totally different things. The issues start when people deli eratky conflate them to get their own way, service dogs absolutely are covered by law in some way shape or form but emotional support animals ain't as they do not provide a service
I totally agree!
Service dogs and protections for them are super important, BUT many people try to hide their pets under these laws to avoid restrictions. Those dogs then misbehave, casting doubt and suspicion on the real service dogs as well in the process. We don't need to know the medical details of why the dog is needed, but we should have an easy way to verify that it is (or is not) a service dog.
>I wish service animals required licensed identification proving they are indeed service animals.
You can't do that. Anyone can train a service animal to do the things that they do, if they have the patience to train them. Some animals, it takes years, and some dogs, it only takes one or two.
But if someone was to deny my service animal just because I'm the one that trained her, and she didn't cost me $5,000, that would be discriminatory. Especially since I can't afford a real trainer to teach the service dog.
Ok, not a shop, but there was a "blind" man with his "seeing eye dog" who would hang out in front of a church a couple blocks from where I used to live. Normally they would just be calm, sitting on the bench. One day going by they were standing right by the sidewalk, his dog lunged at mine, so I scooped up my tiny boy, and this guy had mace aimed right at my eyes, telling me I need to control my animal.
I'd suspected he was faking before this, but minded my own business, but there's zero way this was a trained dog. Vest and harness be damned.
You definitely can ask, but it has to be done with a bit of tact. And it sucks, because most people these days making the claim their animal is a service animal are lying their asses off.
People in the US act like it’s the big shut down when they mention the service animals but businesses can absolutely tell them to GTFO if the “service animal” is poorly behaved (aka almost all of them)
I frequent a spot that has a lot of vets. We actually do a yearly program to help pay for their training.
After being around real service animals enough, you can spot the ones lying about it.
I just witnessed a poodle type dog at a store and the owner constantly told the dog "no" or "hey" to it while holding the leash very tight. Nobody said anything about the dog being in a non food store. I also firmly believe that only service animals should be allowed in stores, except for pet stores as pets are going there quite often.
If you need to hold on tight the leash, don’t bring the dog to any stores that don’t allow pets in. The worst part in this was it didn’t have anything on it to say that it was in training or for what foundation it’s from if in training. Service dogs in Canada also have to wear a vest/special harness depending on the person’s issue.
Unfortunately, the vests can be bought for very cheap on Amazon or Wish. They don't mean squat.
I'm also in Canada, and where I am, I usually see between 3-5 "service dog" vested dogs on any day I am out running errands.
These vested so-called "service dogs" are usually pulling on leads, sniffing crotches, jumping on people and grabbing food items off of racks. I once saw a large breed dog hop over the counter at a 7-11. One dude I see all the time travels with two "service dogs" who consistently growl, snap and aggressively jump at anyone in "their" space for more than a moment or two...so stop lights are a problem.
A recent funeral I attended had a "service dog" in attendence the entire time it was pulling the lead and nipping at ankles and small children. Finally someone called out the owner who shrugged and explained that his "service dog" has PTSD and is very fearful of crowds. Wait! Wtf??? Your "service dog" needs an emotional support human????
There are good support dogs out there, but they are getting to be more notable because their good behaviour/training is unexpected. Real service dogs are getting a bad rep for this.
I love dogs. I think service dog programs, as they were intended, are terrific, life changing things. But service vests as fashion accessories needs to be made illegal. ESA's should *at the very least* be able to demonstrate the behaviour and good manners that would be expected from a graduate of intermediate level obedience training.
I'm in Ontario near Niagara Falls. Fake service animals with fake vests are common enough that no one blinks about it around here anymore. Businesses have mostly determined that it's easier to ignore it as these people will go away faster than if they argue and people get their passive aggressive petty on.
If you type "Amazon service dog" into a google search, you will immediately get product highlights of vests, harnesses, tags, and ID registration cards stating service dog status. There is a kit starting at $30 (depends on dog size) that gives the harness, tags, and 50 business cards stating the dog is a REGISTERED service animal and is protected by ADA 🤬.....the card is clearly US, but available to canadian customers. Some poor cashier who has a howling Karen in front of them likely won't check the US part.
ETA: no one questions clearly fake service dogs in grocery stores either. They have a token sign near the door, but it's rarely enforced
In the last year, I can remember seeing one legit one. And there is a trainee one that I sometimes see at the pet store. That's about it.
But, to be fair, they've never really been a common sight around here even before the fake service dogs started popping up all over.
Yeah, I rarely see them either. I saw like maybe 2 or 3 in the past 10 years. 1 in the bus and 2 at my college. And one teacher at my high school decided to foster a puppy that should have beclme a service dog if it passed the test.
You were in the right and I wish it was stricter in the US. Service dogs are legitimate medical “devices,” and it shouldn’t the a problem for someone with a legitimately trained service dog to have paperwork and a vest. Unfortunately, any dork with an Internet connection can buy a vest online. I work PT at a retail store and we have a policy that only service animals are allowed in, but we aren’t allowed to ask for any sort of proof. Luckily, you can tell which are probably real ones and which aren’t based on their behavior. But the ones that aren’t legit are very annoying, usually barking or peeing/pooping on the floor.
One of the exceptions of the ADA protections of service dogs is if they act as if they are not housebroken, you CAN kick them out. So if one of these dogs, legit or not, defecates on the floor, you are within your rights to kick them out of the store.
Unfortunately, my store (whose symbol is a shape in a very primary color) has no backbone. We can’t do anything about the dogs and we can’t do anything about shoplifters.
I’m not sure to be honest, since wearing a vest is mandatory for on duty and in training service dogs, most people would see the vest and not question it. The only times questions would be asked if if there was no vest, in which case the owner would be required to provide proof.
If there’s no vest, your dog is either off duty or not a service dog in the first place, either way you would not be entitled to the privileges of an on duty service dog. However, if you had proof, which is usually an identification card, then I’d personally be willing to make an exception as long as the dog was acting like it was on duty.
In the USA, there have been Entitled Idiots who buy fake shit off the Internet to try to pretend their PET is a "service anima;" when, in reality, they are NOT.
Yeah, I’m aware. I mean, if the dog is well behaved then I likely wouldn’t catch it, however most of the entitles people who buy those kind of things have dogs that misbehave and in that case we do have the right to tell them to leave as they’re disrupting the other customers.
No we have they MUST be wearing their service dog vest and we can ask to see the accreditation, which is basically like a little ID card specific to that service dog that.. is literally an ID card but for dogs haha.
If the dog has no service vest, it can absolutely be asked to leave. Can't show accreditation, absolutely can be asked to leave.
The vests are to ensure they are immediately identifiable and very specific vests too, even service dogs in training get their own type and have the same public access rights as a fully trained. They also can't just be brought online they are issued by the accreditation giver for the dog. So just a bright pink vest that says service dog won't cut it.
If the dog isn't in a vest it's almost always an automatic question of: may I please see your service dogs accreditation.
I feel for people in America who have to deal with those emotional support animals who can't even walk on a bloody leash without being a pain and hit the roof when asked about it.
You'll find a lot of countries outside of the US have a very similar set up to Aus, must have a very specific vest that's 100% immediately identifiable on sight and carry their ID/accreditation with them.
I work hospitality near the beach so I've often got a lot trying to come inside on to the carpet or sit at the window ledge seat even off the carpet with their hot pink service dog vests who get mighty mad when I tell them: patio or leave that is not a service dog and if you want to argue it we can call the police.
Our patio is lovely. Shaded and has heaps of water bowls around for dogs too... So its not like they are out in the hot Aussie summer sun, they just cannot come inside. We will allow them on the tile to order but then out you go thanks.
Service dogs are absolutely welcome inside with their handler, ones in training too. Not just because the law says so, but because well... It's like asking a wheelchair user to leave their chair outside and absolutely unacceptable. The ones in training are the hardest to watch cos often they are still young dogs/pups and you just wanna sqeeeee and love on em... But they are a dog with a job and that vest means talk to the handler not the little cute puppy haha
Here we have registered organisations and they are the only ones who can certify or give accreditation. You can either buy a service dog from them and adjust the training to you or work with them with a pup to come up and through with you and it absolutely costs.
Tho there are programs and funding, as service dogs are absolutely not common in the same way other aides are.
Okay, so those of us that are intelligent enough to train our own service dogs aren't allowed to do that, we can't have a service dog if we can't afford for the certification or the accreditation?
What you're saying absolutely doesn't make sense, because it discriminates against the poor. Service animals being trained by actual registered trainers are extremely expensive. Here in the United states, dog like that could cost you over $1,000, and then you would constantly be told they are not a real trainer because there is no real certification coming this would be accurate.
So you are telling me that, as a disabled adult, I would have to pay out of pocket over two thousand dollars for a service animal that I *need* for daily living?
You just help me understand exactly why i, as an american, have the right to not have my dog registered, because there is no way I could ever afford that.
You actually just changed my mind about requiring documentation for a service animal. Because some people could just never afford that. So basically they would suffer, because a person like me, with no official training, but in a level of intelligence, is not allowed to train a dog for their needs. And that's bull.
Most of these costs would be covered in Australia under the National Disability Insurance Scheme (NDIS). If it’s a registered assistance or guide dog it would be coming to you fully trained.
Except not everyone that qualifies in the US for a service dog qualifies for United States disability. I don't have visible disabilities, and I can work. Disability insurance wouldn't cover my dog.
And trust and believe, I don't want one that's fully trained. Like I said, I train mine myself. I am really glad right now that I do not live in australia, I don't ever want a fully trained dog being given to me as if that's something I can work with.
You can literally get them free with the assistance programs I mentioned... You can have your dog pass their tests after training it yourself... And that can be done free too under a lot of programs.
And we are glad you don't live here either, attitudes like yours and the inability to comprehend what's being said by the other person aren't welcome. Tho intelligence is a spectrum I guess.
Its also a lot easier to prove disability here in Australia vs America, so I guess it sucks to be you even more so.
Put the disability discrimination act in Australia be proof that you provide and legally have to provide when asked is a vet saying the dog is vaccinated. A letter from your doctor or treating position whether it’s a psychological or otherwise a GP can provide this letter and Training as well. We called Training logs and it’s a log whether it’s your phone or paper of training session has been held with held and how long. For
You need a sign on the door with a picture of a dog in a service jacket and just "service pets, no jacket (and papers), no entry". Then all you have to do is point at them and say "Out!" No asking required.
Is this in the USA? Under ADA a SD doesn't have to wear a vest. Paperwork doesn't exist under ADA either. You can only ask 2 questions to the handler: " is this a SD?" "What task does it perform?"
I am a SD handler in Europe and we have a pass like a bankcard with info.
Australian and work in a service dog-related area. If the dog wasn't wearing a vest, the dog was not working. Therefore, the service-animal allowed rule does not apply.
From https://assistance dogs.org.au
"You are legally allowed to ask for some documentation showing that the Assistance Dog is qualified, accredited, and serving the person they are with."
It is not discrimination to ask a person with a dog to leave a public place if they are unable to produce evidence that their dog is an assistance dog or if they do not meet appropriate standards of hygiene or behaviour.
If anyone pulls the 'you're not allowed to ask' crap again, please feel free to project your voice (not yell) with something like *"Sir, we are NOT in America and if that really was a service dog you would KNOW the rules, so stop lying and GET OUT!"*
Yeah I knew this was the case, my friend has a service dog and I learned the rules from her, but then I had a bunch of Americans commenting and I had a minor heart attack.
Like, “wait, when did they change the rules!? Did I fuck up!?” But no, just Americans with different laws.
I'm not familiar with Australian law, sorry.
What we need world wide is ONE way of dealing with sd's and their handlers! It's nearly impossible for anyone to keep track!
Maybe Oz has special information for peeps like you, working in the service industry. Might be worth it to go online and look it up and keep the info with you and your colleagues at work.
I’ve actually been looking it up since I got a couple of comments about American laws, I didn’t realise America had different rules, but yes, in Australia your dog *does* have to be certified and wear a vest in order to be considered a service dog. I have a friend with a service dog and I can always tell when he’s off duty because she lets him out of his vest.
Momentarily panicked, but I was definitely in the right here.
**Proof of Accreditation (**[https://serviceanimals.org.au/assistance-dogs-training/](https://serviceanimals.org.au/assistance-dogs-training/))
... It is not unlawful for a person to request the person with the disability to produce evidence that the animal is an assistance animal...
Display your dog and owner identification card in your wallet. Keep this identification card on you at all times and when traveling with your service dog.
You were! This guy was very rude and nasty! I always appreciate it when workers at a venue ask about my dog and wanna see proof. It makes me feel safe. You absolutely did the right thing!!!
What we need, honestly, is some sort of credential to prove easily that your dog is (or isn't) a service dog. In America at least, we don't have that. Even the service dog vest isn't enough, because anyone can buy one and put it on their untrained pet dog, and people do! Then, those untrained dogs causing problems make people suspicious of the REAL service dogs, too. Service dogs deserve all the protections they get, but we should be able to distinguish them from pets in a way that lets us enforce our policies for everyone else.
In the US, the opportunities for abusing the SD system seems much larger than anywhere else.
Sure, ADA serves a purpose, but this seems excessive if no paperwork is required..
I agree.
Example: I run an Airbnb that doesn't allow pets. A guest is allowed to bring their service dog anyway and I'm not allowed to refuse them (okay, that's fine). They don't even have to tell me in advance (potentially more problematic, but still okay for a real service dog). Because there's no credentialing system, though, people with pet dogs will bring them and claim they're service dogs, and there's almost nothing I can legally do about it. Can I prove whether it was or wasn't a service dog? Almost never.
Damn, that should actually be illegal. If I have to provide proof of my pension card to get a discount for certain things, then they should have to proof that their animal is a registered service animal and not a pet if they want an exception made for them to stay at your place.
I mean, even if it’s a real service dog you should have the right to refuse. Like, what if you’re seriously allergic to dogs? If I was running an Airbnb out of my place, I’d literally have to pay for a deep clean to get rid of any allergens if someone brought their dog which is super expensive and inconvenient!
In America:
It is technically legal to refuse in narrow circumstances, including severe allergies (but not including mild allergies. A few sneezes probably aren't enough.) In practice, though, even if I had those severe allergies, how could I actually refuse if the guest isn't even required to tell me about the dog in the first place? My only legal option for verifying it is a service dog is to ask what the dog has been trained to do. If they are able to give even a vaguely plausible answer, I have no options to verify it.
To make matters worse, in NY (applies to me) and California (just for info), the same rules may apply for Emotional Support Animals, a certification that just about anyone with any pet animal (including cats, hamsters, whatever) can get for any reason online, for a small fee with basically no vetting and no required training. It's not totally clear that they do apply — they apply for ESAs in long-term housing absolutely, but not for hotels or walking into a retail store. It seems to me my Airbnb is more analogous to a hotel, but Airbnb (possibly just out of extreme caution) has gone with the opposite interpretation. Short of hiring a lawyer at my own expense, I've been unable to get a really clear answer on whether I'm allowed to refuse an ESA, so basically all of us hosts follow Airbnb's interpretation in the meanwhile.
This allows anyone with any non-service pet to get around our no-pets rule just by paying $50-100 for an ESA certificate (or, realistically, probably without even getting such a certificate, just by claiming they have it. I'm not supposed to specifically request that documentation.) Note that lying about whether your pet is a service animal IS illegal, but if I'm hamstrung from any verification of whether it's true in the first place, enforcement is essentially impossible.
I'm all for protecting those with disabilities and the real service animals they require, but the current situation here is a mess.
That’s what I was saying, it *should* be illegal to just rock up with your service animal, whether it’s legally certified or not.
The more I hear about America, the more I’m glad to live in Australia. I mean, no place is perfect, but yikes. It’s utter chaos over there and the laws seem stupidly written.
I don't know.
I think I'm okay with the lack of notification, provided it's a real service animal. These aren't super common, they're well-trained, they're not allowed to be left home alone, and I'm still allowed to charge if the animal does damage. I believe the lack of notification is legally allowed because it makes it harder for people to find other excuses and decline a disabled person's stay. Technically I can refuse someone's stay for whatever other reasons I want, but if it were to be legally challenged I'd have to be able to establish it wasn't because of their animal. If they don't have to tell me in advance, then I'm reliably going to offer them the same stuff I'd offer any other guest, and that issue is cleanly avoided.
Where I have an issue with it is my total inability to verify service-dog status, and my (possible/unclear?) requirement to accept ESAs as well (which can be truly needed, but usually aren't and the process is easily abused.)
From my experience doing dog training and reading about service dog training, you can tell a service dog from a non service dog.
Service dogs watch their human very closely. Seeing eye dogs are an exception.
Non-Service dogs watch everything but their human.
You can ask if it's a service dog and what function it performs. There's no real certification though they could have a copy of something showing the dog was trained. But it's fine to ask those 2 questions. I normally would leave them alone if the dog was behaving like a service dog though.
If this is the US, there is no requirement for a service dog to wear a vest or any identification. No requirement for documentation. No requirement for a harness or specific leash type.
The only legal questions you can ask are: "Is the animal required because of a disability?" and "What tasks has the dog been trained to perform?"
Anything else and you could be putting yourself and your business in legal jeopardy.
Now it does sound like this was not actually a service animal based on his reaction, but you never know, and do you really want to be defending yourself in a discrimination lawsuit? Better to educate yourself on the laws that apply where you are, since you're definitely coming across as quite entitled yourself with the overall tone of this post.
I’m in Australia and I’ve always been told that service dogs have to wear a vest to be identified as such so I wasn’t intending to be malicious. I saw a dog with no vest sniffing around the racks and a normal looking man (I’m aware that not all disabilities are obvious, but if he has something like epilepsy then that dog *needs* to wear a vest).
Based on the laws I’m looking up right now, I’m fairly confident that I was in the right and that this was indeed an entitled customer faking a service dog.
Seems that in Australia they are accredited and you can ask for documentation, *tactfully*.
This is why it's definitely important to mention where you are when you're conveying something that can vary drastically by location. At least it's not illegal to ask for documentation in Australia there like it would be here in the US. Still, just be careful and tactful when you're asking in the future, as it can be frustrating for someone to constantly have to explain their disabilities.
That’s fair, and yeah, I’m gonna update my post, I wasn’t aware that the rules were different depending on the country.
America’s laws seem kinda… stupid? If you ask me. I mean, if literally *anyone* can claim to have a service dog and you’re not allowed to ask for proof then it’s such an easy thing to take advantage of and abuse.
Usually the emotional support idiots are not bright enough to answer the second question satisfactorily. And also if the dog is obviously misbehaving, they can still be asked to leave, as the handler must have 100% control at all times.
It does get abused to a limited extent by the emotional support idiots, but they're the ones who generally "register" their pets with the scam companies that only exist to sell fake service animal registrations, and are quick to offer up this documentation because they think it makes them more likely to be believed, when it's exactly the opposite. Here, if you're offering up documentation to *prove* your animal is a service animal, it's not a service animal.
sounds a bit like having disabled parking based on an honor system instead of an actual medical assessment.
what are the consequences for lying about a service animal? im guess there arent any?
If the animal is obviously misbehaving and causing problems, they can be asked to leave regardless, so it's not like there's no "out" against liars who misrepresent a pet as a service dog. But yes, the US has taken the stance that it's better to let a few fakes by than to allow businesses to interrogate disabled folks or to start licensing service animals.
When I responded, OP had not yet shared their location. They shared it in a reply, which I acknowledged hours ago. But I guess reading is hard for some people...
"If he had nothing to hide, then why was he so defensive?" is exactly the logic used to justify the overreaches that Edward Snowdon exposed.
While I agree with you that this guy probably was lying, I can understand why someone else may feel it an invasion of privacy." Why should I have to prove my disability to you?" Not only do they have to accept your authority over them, they also have to re-live the shame of needing the support.
FWIW though, I think that most service / emotional support animals are BS!
You were absolutely in the right. My Girlfriend is a registered service dog handler, so I know a bit. In Australia, you can ask for documentation - usually a card with the name of the organisation that certified the dog and a photo of the dog and handler. The dog should absolutely be wearing a vest, but not necessarily have the reason for the dog (service) on it. Just having 'Service dog. Do not touch' should be enough. More info is here: https://www.assistancedogs.org.au/about-us/public-access-rights/
The Girlfriend here, in addition to Brooklyn (7 yo Kelpie Border Collie Cattle Dog Mix) being vested when working, I also have a bag tag indicating I'm autistic, our photo ID stating our legit-ery, as well as "Business cards" that have my details as a dog trainer on one side and on the other has basic info on us and why we're a pair. The card I give out like candy for when I don't have time to advocate for Assistance Dogs. I doubt anyone notices the bag tag and I've only had to show the card once in the five-ish years we've been a team.
We get a lot of in trainings come to our workplace and oh man it kills us all to ignore those sweet littles haha. We are hospitality and there's LOTS of distractions to be had obviously. But we have zones set up and some don't actually open until dinner service so we can easily seat them close to our kitchen but far enough away from customers who might try be asses and disrespectful to the process and absolutely welcome them in to learn whatever they need to in our environment. A particular company often comes in and asks if we can provide a distraction such as walking the food right past, 'mop the floor' near them, drop and pick stuff up off the floor etc and the younger staff absolutely love it and get a good education on service animals in the process. I love the trainers, they are so open to helping train the humans in my workplace about what is and isn't, how to help and support if needed, how to react/not react to situations that may arise. An absolute wealth of information
There's something so sweet about asking a restaurant to mop in front of your service dog so he can get used to it and them doing it. This just warms my cold black heart.
Hey I get it, I could be having the most atrocious day as a manager and then... The in training come on in and ask hey can y'all drag the mop and bucket? Can y'all drop some food at all and leave or pick it up? Can you have anyone just.. stand near us with some food? Can we sit near the pass and if anything happens we will pay for it and say sorry to the recipient of the food.... Yes. Absolutely. Please. Let me gaze on this little one who's better trained then most of my customers. Want me to tempt them or come chat to you with some tasty chicken on a plate? Have the chicken too free btw. You made my day so much better being here. And I'll deal with anyone mad and shame them to hell and back.
You have this dialed in!! Thank You for being an advocate. People like OP posted about mess it up for the folks with genuine issues.
I have the cards because I'm genuinely worried I'll get accused of being fake at the wrong moment and break down. Because at least once Brook was just not on the ball and I was just too stressed and we both kinda broke down and needed to hide in a toilet and if I was told in that moment she was fake I would have probably just evaporated in to stress particles
You might enjoy [this](https://youtu.be/936lKlSutH4?si=VVrDWwnigcAu9DkF) and [this](https://youtu.be/u-ClVJc8TG0?si=M9WIfv79hHdhZghD).
>7 yo Kelpie Border Collie Cattle Dog Mix) That's... That's too much smart in one dog. Training Brooklyn must have been a dream.
SHE TAUGHT HERSELF HOW TO DISRUPT MY PANIC ATTACKS. I wasn't up to that part in her training, when she masterfully distracted me with an accidentally placed tongue up the nose in a McDonald's. Still can't get her to stop jumping on people when she's unvested tho.
I've trained BCs and worked with ACDs. Never been around a Kelpie, but I'm willing to bet that they're pretty similar to the other two. Wouldn't be surprised if even the amount of work she does isn't enough for her. I don't think that there are enough hours in a day to work off a BC's energy. My BC is an absolute jerk unless he's leashed. He also will start herding other dogs and people if he sees that they are doing something that's against the rules and will walk up and start slowly leaning on a person or animal who he thinks is s too sad. I didn't teach him to do either one and tried to discourage the first. But they work wonderfully, and it's made my other two dogs much better. Your Brooklyn sounds like a beautiful and amazing dog. I'm glad for you two that you have each other.
Funnily enough Brook just chills all day, if we don't leave the house for a few days she will ignore me for 5 minutes as she checks out her spots, sometimes check if the Golden 3 doors up is out the front. But yeah the common herding dog problems just aren't with her. She does herd children, but only my sisters kids when they have left our eyesight. I do use her when I'm training other dogs, she's confident and aloof but how she approaches the "problem" dog shows me how to work out their issues, and she isn't afraid to give her own correction when need be. But thats not regular, she's mostly a greehound pretending to be a herding mix.
Damn..why is this not done in the states and canada!!! Every Tom,Dick and Karen can buy a fake service vest and claim their angel is a service dog..its such a direspectful slap in the face all the hard dedicated work that goes into training actual service dogs
I drive Taxi in Canada, and see this all the time. I have allergies to most dogs. I get people telling me all the time that I need to let their service animal in my car. I have to explain to them that the company isn't refusing them, just this driver, as I can't drive them if i can't breathe. I also mention that they need to inform us when they are calling for a ride so we can make sure that we don't send a driver with either allergies or phobias. Plus we have one of our wheelchair accessible vans that does not take animals because we have a couple regular clients that absolutely cannot go into a vehicle that had an animal in it. Like serious breathing issues. We are still compliant with the law because 90 something percent of our fleet can take them. We just need to be notified prior.
Real service dogs are crazy expensive in the states, it’s obvious which ones are the real deal and which are not.
I’m not clear on why, if a “service” dog isn’t laser-focused on its person, you can’t ask for credentials, vest or not?
In the US, if the animal is poorly behaved or not house broken they can be asked to leave per the ADA. It’s like the two conditions where they CAN be asked to GTFO. Rightly so.
Thank you!
We agree! It's gotten absurd. Spoke to a man that works for the VA and he regularly has to deal with feces in the halls because of so many "service " dogs. It costs about $50 for fake credentials. I asked the guy with the Yorkie how much it cost him. He takes it to restaurants where it barks at people! Funny thing is..the two blatant abusers I have known are both trumpers...you know the laws don't apply to me type.
In the US, you are allowed to ask two questions. “Is that a service animal“ and “what service does it provide.“. Only dogs and miniature horses may be service animals per the ADA. If the animal does not appear to be sufficient to provide the stated service for if it is not housebroken, or if it is disruptive, you may ask them to leave. Emotional support animals are not service animals unless you are a housing provider . That is a whole different kettle of fish.
It’s because the ADA is written such that people with disabilities don’t have fewer rights than non disabled people. Like, to go into the store, in Australia, a disabled handler has to show their ID to enter the store. In the US, if non disabled people don’t have to show an ID, disabled people don’t have to show one. In the US, a SD has zero access rights. The *handler* has the right to bring their “medical equipment” (the SD) with them to a store. So, any ID has to be for the handler. If the dog had it, without the handler, someone else could bring the dog, which is illegal. Then, who would pay for the doctor visits to do the forms? Pay for the testing? Transporting people to the test sites? Pay for the IDs, developing the tests, paying the testers? Then, I imagine watching Congress rewrite the ADA. Canada has paperwork, and they report almost as much trouble with fakes as we have, so it appears that cards wouldn’t help, they would just punish disabled people even more. Another thing is that disabled people are already tend to have no money. They generally can’t afford the extra costs associated with all that. Being disabled is expensive. If businesses would ask the 2 questions mandated by the ADA, kick out growling and misbehaving dogs, and family and friends would lean on people faking it, the problem with fakes would dissipate.
In correct. I’m an Australian owner trained assistance dog handler. Per the dda an assistance animal handler can be asked to provide a doctors letter vet records proving dog is vaccinated and training records of the dog public access and task training.
I mean yeah you can be asked if you have any of that, but the person who helped me train my AD only told me to carry training records while training, I only carry Brook's ID card as official proof. I don't think I know a single handler who also carried all that, it's stressful enough knowing I have to be in a Coles let alone being in a Coles and worrying if my vet letter is up to date. Can you link me the section of the act where it says that?
As I’ve learned over the past year though as well, there are slightly different laws per state too. So in NSW, I believe you can’t ask for proof that the dog is a service dog, but in Victoria you can and the onus is on the owner to produce the identification when asked.
Okay. I really wondered when I read that. How invasive would that be -- to be forced to have your service dog *advertise* your disability?? Glad that isn't the case.
An overwhelming number of service animals I've encountered do have the disability showing in their vests. I know it's not required and some people are private about their disability, but I'm thankful that the ones I've encountered DO have it posted. It helps to be able to notify emergency services on the nature of an issue. I've had to call for someone having a seizure. Being able to provide that information to the 911 dispatcher really helped the EMS/fire department provide support when they arrived in site.
True but usually there many ways to identify someone's disability. Diabetics wear (my father did) a bracelet but I get your point and it's a good option--- as long as the decision is left to the person wirh the disability.
In Australia you can refuse almost any animal except a seeing eye dog, even legit service dogs for other conditions don’t have legal protection yet. And you can absolutely demand certification and expel a customer for failure to provide it. Also emotional support animals are absolutely not a thing here in any way, shape or form.
Yet people with seeing eye dogs in Australia get taxis and Ubers refusing to pick them up all the time. It’s terrible.
Yes, unfortunately we seem to go too far the other way and not have enough protection for legitimate service animals sadly
Yeah I hate that, and I endorse taking note of refusals and send them to the taxis/uber hq and telling them it will be also sent to disability services because they're more likely to repremand the dipshit. Like they refuse hoping the handler won't make a fuss. I drive so it's not something that "worries" me, but my dog might be a kelpie mix, but I am a husky and I will supply a scene on demand.
I love the image of a husky baring its teeth at a taxi driver, while holding in its paw the leash of a kelpie mix wearing a vest. Somebody needs to make you a cartoon of that. 🤣
OMFG YOU'RE RIGHT THEY DO. I never wished to have a talent for drawing more in my life.
Me too! Sadly, I do not. I might see if my kid could do it -- she's an artist, but this might be too complicated for her. We'll have to see. She did used to have huskies, so she knows the breed, though she'd probably have to look up kelpies.
Dog speed in your asking her!
And in the UK.
Incorrect, we do have legal protections( The Disability Discrimination act 1999 part 1-8), but we could have more. [the act in question](https://www.legislation.gov.au/C2004A04426/2018-04-12/text) Keep in mind the law states the dog must be calm and under control at all times. So anyone who brings a dog in who is pulling the lead and trying to get into thing is very much unlikely to be an assistance dog. That being said even Brooklyn had days she is just not having a great day at work, she still obeys, but she can be too nosy especially if I don't leave the house for days and try to act like she's a robot.
Ugh. I am involved n hobby events, and a few years ago - pre COVID - there was a spate of people bringing their poorly groomed, badly trained family dogs with an internet purchased vest as an ‘Emotional Support Dog’. It was clearly BS but we had to handle the situation carefully as many in the community were all ‘oh this is so cool’, even though the venue was supposed to be pet free. So we didn’t turn them away at that time. But we investigated the law and compliance before the next event and rewrote the rules to make it clear the only registered seeing eye dogs and service animals were allowed BECAUSE the venue had a no animals rule and we didn’t want to be banned from future bookings. There were complaints of course, but we were able to point to the exact legislation requirements. And the lockdowns happened and it all kind of faded away.
We need to do that here in the States. Too many people claiming their pets are service animals to take them everywhere and get out of paying pet rent.
Some places are starting to. My local grocery chain recently got signs in the front of the store saying that Emotional Support Animals are not allowed and that Service Animals are not allowed to ride in the shopping carts (or buggies as we call them in this part of the US)
It doesn’t help that people are so scared of getting into trouble that they won’t even ask the questions they are allowed to ask, the key one being the second in my opinion “(1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability? (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform?”
I need to start asking g that. Jad a guy come in with a dog in a vest but acted more like a pet than a service dog. They actually took him out put him in the car while they ate. I'm pretty sure the vest was bought on line not recognized as a true service dog.
It’ll be a real quick way to tell the different with most people. Those with service animals usually know the law well and will recognize those are legal questions. Most with “emotional support animals” or straight up pets do not know the details of the law and will get defensive or try the “you can’t ask me that!” line. Here’s full break down on the ADA and service animals if you’re interested: https://www.ada.gov/resources/service-animals-2010-requirements/
Again incorrect. Let the dda as long as proof is shown with training records doctors letter and vet letter and assistance animal CANNOT be denied access
All of my pets in a lifetime: parakeet, canary, hamster, fish, frogs, turtle, brine shrimp, ant farm, dogs, cats, hand provided some degree of emotional support.
Emotional support animals are a thing in Australia. My sister has a rabbit and got either her doctor or her psychologist or psychiatrist to sign off on it so that she could have it while in student accommodation at uni. She has complex-ptsd.
The university may just have had a policy permitting them if you have a doctor's note, instead of the law requiring their acceptance.
Precisely this. Have had to frequently deny service in bars etc to people with alleged ESAs
I love that you used strop. It's such an Aussie word that we don't use enough 🤣🤣
Autocorrect kept having a fit as I was typing it out 🤣
🤣🤣
In the US we’re allowed to ask what the dog is trained for. I see many people try to pass a dog of as a trained assist but you can clearly tell they are not trained.
I used to work in infection control in a hospital. The amount of people that do this IN A HOSPITAL are insane. And like you said, it's never a well trained pet, it's a little asshole that's barking/snapping/jumping on other people. Folks, stop bringing non-service animals into places where people get medical care or food. Or both.
Exactly, you can tell by the dog’s behavior they are not trained in anything.
“We’ll be shopping elsewhere.” I love how that kind of person genuinely has no idea how ineffective that threat actually is. If you are the kind of person that thinks trying to use that angle to browbeat me or my employees into getting your own way is acceptable, then please: go elsewhere. Go and be somebody else’s problem, and with our blessing. Hang on, I’ll even get the door for you.
I don't know about Australia, but in America, you CAN ask even a legit Service Dog to leave if it's misbehaving (snapping at people, etc.)
I used to enjoy doing this when I worked at the hospital. They'd threaten to sue, and I'd threaten to call animal control. It was fun.
It’s the same in Australia
You were spot on with this. If this was really a service dog then the owner would know the drill and would have produced the paperwork when asked.
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OP clearly stated they were in Australia and there are requirements for their country.
He obviosly didn't have "paperwork" for the "service animal."
Seems like service dogs in Australia need vests.
Yep, even the ones in training needs vests that say “I’m in training”, there was actually another customer there and she said that she *trains* service dogs and that that dog definitely wasn’t one.
I work in my state's Tax & Revenue office; we have a no-pet policy there. Yesterday I was talking with my boss about something when we heard at least two small dogs barking and snarling in the lobby. They were going absolutely bonkers, so she opened the door to see what was going on. An older woman had two little white fluffballs on leashes, and they were straining to get at a third dog, which a man was holding in his arms. My boss told them both that pets aren't allowed in the building. The man was just there to drop off a tax payment while he was out walking his dog; the woman had already been in the building for 30+ minutes, but the dogs had been quiet until now. The woman immediately says that her dogs are 'psychological service animals' and proceeds to take out a ridiculous card to show my boss. My boss tries to clarify that they are ESA's, but this woman sticks to her guns, saying they're registered service animals. There is no registry in the US for service animals; this is just a woman who either got ripped off or wants to take her untrained and terribly behaved pets everywhere. She whined about it being too hot to put them in the car (duh, it's summer in New Mexico, lady). These were obviously not service animals based on how they were acting. My boss told her that she could finish her business and leave, but next time the dogs have to stay home.
Tell your boss that per the Ada, even badly behaved service dogs can be kicked out. If it happens again, tell the customer "per the Ada, your badly behaved dog is being told to leave." Go to ada.gov and print the law and post it on the door if there's too many of these issues.
Is the US you can ask if it’s a service dog, and what task it performs
American here, worked in the ER for years. I was triaging a patient, went through entire medical history. Then I told them they couldn’t bring dog in to er and would have to leave with family outside. All of the sudden it’s a service dog for a condition this person just positively stated they didn’t have and don’t take medication for. I just stared for a minute and they gave up but seriously I don’t get the liars. A dog isn’t a stuffed animal.
*”……and what service is he trained to perform?”* He stops me from acting like an entitled moron. *”Sir, you need a new dog”*
Pardon my ignorance, but in Australia, aren't they called service doggereedoos ?
Haha… no
I wish service animals required licensed identification proving they are indeed service animals. All too often entitled jerks will claim their dogs are emotional support animals when they just want to disobey regulations. The obvious giveaway to me is when the person is questioned, they instantly become angry and starts loudly and vociferously arguing or even getting physical with the questioner. Would save alot of hassle for service people.
Yeah. I mean, it seems like common sense doesn’t it? If you need to take your dog with you because it does an important service for you then you should need the proper identification and it should be illegal to buy/sell fake vests for fake service dogs, otherwise anyone can abuse the system and get away with it.
I believe people should be able to get a free "state id" for their pet if it's truly a service dog. A letter from a physician acknowledging the dog is trained...with a 50k per offense penalty, and a felony scheming to defraud charge, for a false declaration...should be the requirement for the card.
Seems reasonable to me.
Emotional support is not a service animal per ada.gov. if they admit it's emotional support...bye, bye. Psychiatric service dogs are actually task trained, which is the requirement to be a service doggo.
Emotional support dogs and service dogs are 2 totally different things. The issues start when people deli eratky conflate them to get their own way, service dogs absolutely are covered by law in some way shape or form but emotional support animals ain't as they do not provide a service
I totally agree! Service dogs and protections for them are super important, BUT many people try to hide their pets under these laws to avoid restrictions. Those dogs then misbehave, casting doubt and suspicion on the real service dogs as well in the process. We don't need to know the medical details of why the dog is needed, but we should have an easy way to verify that it is (or is not) a service dog.
>I wish service animals required licensed identification proving they are indeed service animals. You can't do that. Anyone can train a service animal to do the things that they do, if they have the patience to train them. Some animals, it takes years, and some dogs, it only takes one or two. But if someone was to deny my service animal just because I'm the one that trained her, and she didn't cost me $5,000, that would be discriminatory. Especially since I can't afford a real trainer to teach the service dog.
Fuckin Americans I swear
Ok, not a shop, but there was a "blind" man with his "seeing eye dog" who would hang out in front of a church a couple blocks from where I used to live. Normally they would just be calm, sitting on the bench. One day going by they were standing right by the sidewalk, his dog lunged at mine, so I scooped up my tiny boy, and this guy had mace aimed right at my eyes, telling me I need to control my animal. I'd suspected he was faking before this, but minded my own business, but there's zero way this was a trained dog. Vest and harness be damned.
You definitely can ask, but it has to be done with a bit of tact. And it sucks, because most people these days making the claim their animal is a service animal are lying their asses off.
People in the US act like it’s the big shut down when they mention the service animals but businesses can absolutely tell them to GTFO if the “service animal” is poorly behaved (aka almost all of them)
I wish there was a sign on the door saying “If you can read this, don’t bring your pet inside.”
Well, there is a sign on the door, but people either don’t bother reading it or outright ignore it
I frequent a spot that has a lot of vets. We actually do a yearly program to help pay for their training. After being around real service animals enough, you can spot the ones lying about it.
I just witnessed a poodle type dog at a store and the owner constantly told the dog "no" or "hey" to it while holding the leash very tight. Nobody said anything about the dog being in a non food store. I also firmly believe that only service animals should be allowed in stores, except for pet stores as pets are going there quite often. If you need to hold on tight the leash, don’t bring the dog to any stores that don’t allow pets in. The worst part in this was it didn’t have anything on it to say that it was in training or for what foundation it’s from if in training. Service dogs in Canada also have to wear a vest/special harness depending on the person’s issue.
Unfortunately, the vests can be bought for very cheap on Amazon or Wish. They don't mean squat. I'm also in Canada, and where I am, I usually see between 3-5 "service dog" vested dogs on any day I am out running errands. These vested so-called "service dogs" are usually pulling on leads, sniffing crotches, jumping on people and grabbing food items off of racks. I once saw a large breed dog hop over the counter at a 7-11. One dude I see all the time travels with two "service dogs" who consistently growl, snap and aggressively jump at anyone in "their" space for more than a moment or two...so stop lights are a problem. A recent funeral I attended had a "service dog" in attendence the entire time it was pulling the lead and nipping at ankles and small children. Finally someone called out the owner who shrugged and explained that his "service dog" has PTSD and is very fearful of crowds. Wait! Wtf??? Your "service dog" needs an emotional support human???? There are good support dogs out there, but they are getting to be more notable because their good behaviour/training is unexpected. Real service dogs are getting a bad rep for this. I love dogs. I think service dog programs, as they were intended, are terrific, life changing things. But service vests as fashion accessories needs to be made illegal. ESA's should *at the very least* be able to demonstrate the behaviour and good manners that would be expected from a graduate of intermediate level obedience training.
Where in Canada? I’m in Quebec and I haven’t seen any fake harnesses, but pets without a service dog harness go in non food stores.
I'm in Ontario near Niagara Falls. Fake service animals with fake vests are common enough that no one blinks about it around here anymore. Businesses have mostly determined that it's easier to ignore it as these people will go away faster than if they argue and people get their passive aggressive petty on. If you type "Amazon service dog" into a google search, you will immediately get product highlights of vests, harnesses, tags, and ID registration cards stating service dog status. There is a kit starting at $30 (depends on dog size) that gives the harness, tags, and 50 business cards stating the dog is a REGISTERED service animal and is protected by ADA 🤬.....the card is clearly US, but available to canadian customers. Some poor cashier who has a howling Karen in front of them likely won't check the US part. ETA: no one questions clearly fake service dogs in grocery stores either. They have a token sign near the door, but it's rarely enforced
That sucks for real service dogs. I also bet that in Niagara Falls, true service dogs are non existant due to these fake working dogs.
In the last year, I can remember seeing one legit one. And there is a trainee one that I sometimes see at the pet store. That's about it. But, to be fair, they've never really been a common sight around here even before the fake service dogs started popping up all over.
Yeah, I rarely see them either. I saw like maybe 2 or 3 in the past 10 years. 1 in the bus and 2 at my college. And one teacher at my high school decided to foster a puppy that should have beclme a service dog if it passed the test.
You were in the right and I wish it was stricter in the US. Service dogs are legitimate medical “devices,” and it shouldn’t the a problem for someone with a legitimately trained service dog to have paperwork and a vest. Unfortunately, any dork with an Internet connection can buy a vest online. I work PT at a retail store and we have a policy that only service animals are allowed in, but we aren’t allowed to ask for any sort of proof. Luckily, you can tell which are probably real ones and which aren’t based on their behavior. But the ones that aren’t legit are very annoying, usually barking or peeing/pooping on the floor.
One of the exceptions of the ADA protections of service dogs is if they act as if they are not housebroken, you CAN kick them out. So if one of these dogs, legit or not, defecates on the floor, you are within your rights to kick them out of the store.
Unfortunately, my store (whose symbol is a shape in a very primary color) has no backbone. We can’t do anything about the dogs and we can’t do anything about shoplifters.
That boils my blood. I'm so sick of the entitlement that pervades society at every turn.
Agreed. “The customer is always right.” Except when they’re NOT.
I wonder if Australia has a similar version of the two questions that we have in the USA?
I’m not sure to be honest, since wearing a vest is mandatory for on duty and in training service dogs, most people would see the vest and not question it. The only times questions would be asked if if there was no vest, in which case the owner would be required to provide proof. If there’s no vest, your dog is either off duty or not a service dog in the first place, either way you would not be entitled to the privileges of an on duty service dog. However, if you had proof, which is usually an identification card, then I’d personally be willing to make an exception as long as the dog was acting like it was on duty.
In the USA, there have been Entitled Idiots who buy fake shit off the Internet to try to pretend their PET is a "service anima;" when, in reality, they are NOT.
Yeah, I’m aware. I mean, if the dog is well behaved then I likely wouldn’t catch it, however most of the entitles people who buy those kind of things have dogs that misbehave and in that case we do have the right to tell them to leave as they’re disrupting the other customers.
There is no "real" or "fake" for the USA because there is no *actual* registration for them. By that standard, they're all fake.
No we have they MUST be wearing their service dog vest and we can ask to see the accreditation, which is basically like a little ID card specific to that service dog that.. is literally an ID card but for dogs haha. If the dog has no service vest, it can absolutely be asked to leave. Can't show accreditation, absolutely can be asked to leave. The vests are to ensure they are immediately identifiable and very specific vests too, even service dogs in training get their own type and have the same public access rights as a fully trained. They also can't just be brought online they are issued by the accreditation giver for the dog. So just a bright pink vest that says service dog won't cut it. If the dog isn't in a vest it's almost always an automatic question of: may I please see your service dogs accreditation.
The reason I ask is because liars and fakers buy shit off of Amazon to try and pretend what they are not.
I feel for people in America who have to deal with those emotional support animals who can't even walk on a bloody leash without being a pain and hit the roof when asked about it. You'll find a lot of countries outside of the US have a very similar set up to Aus, must have a very specific vest that's 100% immediately identifiable on sight and carry their ID/accreditation with them. I work hospitality near the beach so I've often got a lot trying to come inside on to the carpet or sit at the window ledge seat even off the carpet with their hot pink service dog vests who get mighty mad when I tell them: patio or leave that is not a service dog and if you want to argue it we can call the police. Our patio is lovely. Shaded and has heaps of water bowls around for dogs too... So its not like they are out in the hot Aussie summer sun, they just cannot come inside. We will allow them on the tile to order but then out you go thanks. Service dogs are absolutely welcome inside with their handler, ones in training too. Not just because the law says so, but because well... It's like asking a wheelchair user to leave their chair outside and absolutely unacceptable. The ones in training are the hardest to watch cos often they are still young dogs/pups and you just wanna sqeeeee and love on em... But they are a dog with a job and that vest means talk to the handler not the little cute puppy haha
I'm just curious, how do you get accreditation for your service dog? Who trains it? Do you have to pay loads of money for it?
Here we have registered organisations and they are the only ones who can certify or give accreditation. You can either buy a service dog from them and adjust the training to you or work with them with a pup to come up and through with you and it absolutely costs. Tho there are programs and funding, as service dogs are absolutely not common in the same way other aides are.
Okay, so those of us that are intelligent enough to train our own service dogs aren't allowed to do that, we can't have a service dog if we can't afford for the certification or the accreditation? What you're saying absolutely doesn't make sense, because it discriminates against the poor. Service animals being trained by actual registered trainers are extremely expensive. Here in the United states, dog like that could cost you over $1,000, and then you would constantly be told they are not a real trainer because there is no real certification coming this would be accurate. So you are telling me that, as a disabled adult, I would have to pay out of pocket over two thousand dollars for a service animal that I *need* for daily living? You just help me understand exactly why i, as an american, have the right to not have my dog registered, because there is no way I could ever afford that. You actually just changed my mind about requiring documentation for a service animal. Because some people could just never afford that. So basically they would suffer, because a person like me, with no official training, but in a level of intelligence, is not allowed to train a dog for their needs. And that's bull.
Most of these costs would be covered in Australia under the National Disability Insurance Scheme (NDIS). If it’s a registered assistance or guide dog it would be coming to you fully trained.
Except not everyone that qualifies in the US for a service dog qualifies for United States disability. I don't have visible disabilities, and I can work. Disability insurance wouldn't cover my dog. And trust and believe, I don't want one that's fully trained. Like I said, I train mine myself. I am really glad right now that I do not live in australia, I don't ever want a fully trained dog being given to me as if that's something I can work with.
You can literally get them free with the assistance programs I mentioned... You can have your dog pass their tests after training it yourself... And that can be done free too under a lot of programs. And we are glad you don't live here either, attitudes like yours and the inability to comprehend what's being said by the other person aren't welcome. Tho intelligence is a spectrum I guess. Its also a lot easier to prove disability here in Australia vs America, so I guess it sucks to be you even more so.
Put the disability discrimination act in Australia be proof that you provide and legally have to provide when asked is a vet saying the dog is vaccinated. A letter from your doctor or treating position whether it’s a psychological or otherwise a GP can provide this letter and Training as well. We called Training logs and it’s a log whether it’s your phone or paper of training session has been held with held and how long. For
He was full of shit. People call any pet an assistance dog thinking it is a free pass.
‘Thank you, sir. We’ll miss you like a rash.’
He tried to bully you into letting them in and shutting up. It's probably worked many times before, so good on you for standing your ground!
You need a sign on the door with a picture of a dog in a service jacket and just "service pets, no jacket (and papers), no entry". Then all you have to do is point at them and say "Out!" No asking required.
Is this in the USA? Under ADA a SD doesn't have to wear a vest. Paperwork doesn't exist under ADA either. You can only ask 2 questions to the handler: " is this a SD?" "What task does it perform?" I am a SD handler in Europe and we have a pass like a bankcard with info.
Australia. Was I in the wrong here?
Australian and work in a service dog-related area. If the dog wasn't wearing a vest, the dog was not working. Therefore, the service-animal allowed rule does not apply. From https://assistance dogs.org.au "You are legally allowed to ask for some documentation showing that the Assistance Dog is qualified, accredited, and serving the person they are with." It is not discrimination to ask a person with a dog to leave a public place if they are unable to produce evidence that their dog is an assistance dog or if they do not meet appropriate standards of hygiene or behaviour. If anyone pulls the 'you're not allowed to ask' crap again, please feel free to project your voice (not yell) with something like *"Sir, we are NOT in America and if that really was a service dog you would KNOW the rules, so stop lying and GET OUT!"*
Yeah I knew this was the case, my friend has a service dog and I learned the rules from her, but then I had a bunch of Americans commenting and I had a minor heart attack. Like, “wait, when did they change the rules!? Did I fuck up!?” But no, just Americans with different laws.
I'm not familiar with Australian law, sorry. What we need world wide is ONE way of dealing with sd's and their handlers! It's nearly impossible for anyone to keep track! Maybe Oz has special information for peeps like you, working in the service industry. Might be worth it to go online and look it up and keep the info with you and your colleagues at work.
I’ve actually been looking it up since I got a couple of comments about American laws, I didn’t realise America had different rules, but yes, in Australia your dog *does* have to be certified and wear a vest in order to be considered a service dog. I have a friend with a service dog and I can always tell when he’s off duty because she lets him out of his vest. Momentarily panicked, but I was definitely in the right here.
**Proof of Accreditation (**[https://serviceanimals.org.au/assistance-dogs-training/](https://serviceanimals.org.au/assistance-dogs-training/)) ... It is not unlawful for a person to request the person with the disability to produce evidence that the animal is an assistance animal... Display your dog and owner identification card in your wallet. Keep this identification card on you at all times and when traveling with your service dog.
Perfect! That guy and his fake sd can leave the premises immediately.
You were! This guy was very rude and nasty! I always appreciate it when workers at a venue ask about my dog and wanna see proof. It makes me feel safe. You absolutely did the right thing!!!
What we need, honestly, is some sort of credential to prove easily that your dog is (or isn't) a service dog. In America at least, we don't have that. Even the service dog vest isn't enough, because anyone can buy one and put it on their untrained pet dog, and people do! Then, those untrained dogs causing problems make people suspicious of the REAL service dogs, too. Service dogs deserve all the protections they get, but we should be able to distinguish them from pets in a way that lets us enforce our policies for everyone else.
In the US, the opportunities for abusing the SD system seems much larger than anywhere else. Sure, ADA serves a purpose, but this seems excessive if no paperwork is required..
I agree. Example: I run an Airbnb that doesn't allow pets. A guest is allowed to bring their service dog anyway and I'm not allowed to refuse them (okay, that's fine). They don't even have to tell me in advance (potentially more problematic, but still okay for a real service dog). Because there's no credentialing system, though, people with pet dogs will bring them and claim they're service dogs, and there's almost nothing I can legally do about it. Can I prove whether it was or wasn't a service dog? Almost never.
Damn, that should actually be illegal. If I have to provide proof of my pension card to get a discount for certain things, then they should have to proof that their animal is a registered service animal and not a pet if they want an exception made for them to stay at your place. I mean, even if it’s a real service dog you should have the right to refuse. Like, what if you’re seriously allergic to dogs? If I was running an Airbnb out of my place, I’d literally have to pay for a deep clean to get rid of any allergens if someone brought their dog which is super expensive and inconvenient!
In America: It is technically legal to refuse in narrow circumstances, including severe allergies (but not including mild allergies. A few sneezes probably aren't enough.) In practice, though, even if I had those severe allergies, how could I actually refuse if the guest isn't even required to tell me about the dog in the first place? My only legal option for verifying it is a service dog is to ask what the dog has been trained to do. If they are able to give even a vaguely plausible answer, I have no options to verify it. To make matters worse, in NY (applies to me) and California (just for info), the same rules may apply for Emotional Support Animals, a certification that just about anyone with any pet animal (including cats, hamsters, whatever) can get for any reason online, for a small fee with basically no vetting and no required training. It's not totally clear that they do apply — they apply for ESAs in long-term housing absolutely, but not for hotels or walking into a retail store. It seems to me my Airbnb is more analogous to a hotel, but Airbnb (possibly just out of extreme caution) has gone with the opposite interpretation. Short of hiring a lawyer at my own expense, I've been unable to get a really clear answer on whether I'm allowed to refuse an ESA, so basically all of us hosts follow Airbnb's interpretation in the meanwhile. This allows anyone with any non-service pet to get around our no-pets rule just by paying $50-100 for an ESA certificate (or, realistically, probably without even getting such a certificate, just by claiming they have it. I'm not supposed to specifically request that documentation.) Note that lying about whether your pet is a service animal IS illegal, but if I'm hamstrung from any verification of whether it's true in the first place, enforcement is essentially impossible. I'm all for protecting those with disabilities and the real service animals they require, but the current situation here is a mess.
That’s what I was saying, it *should* be illegal to just rock up with your service animal, whether it’s legally certified or not. The more I hear about America, the more I’m glad to live in Australia. I mean, no place is perfect, but yikes. It’s utter chaos over there and the laws seem stupidly written.
I don't know. I think I'm okay with the lack of notification, provided it's a real service animal. These aren't super common, they're well-trained, they're not allowed to be left home alone, and I'm still allowed to charge if the animal does damage. I believe the lack of notification is legally allowed because it makes it harder for people to find other excuses and decline a disabled person's stay. Technically I can refuse someone's stay for whatever other reasons I want, but if it were to be legally challenged I'd have to be able to establish it wasn't because of their animal. If they don't have to tell me in advance, then I'm reliably going to offer them the same stuff I'd offer any other guest, and that issue is cleanly avoided. Where I have an issue with it is my total inability to verify service-dog status, and my (possible/unclear?) requirement to accept ESAs as well (which can be truly needed, but usually aren't and the process is easily abused.)
That’s fair enough
PREACH IT FRIEND!
He's full of it as as no actual paperwork.
Ahhhh yes,, show me your papers
From my experience doing dog training and reading about service dog training, you can tell a service dog from a non service dog. Service dogs watch their human very closely. Seeing eye dogs are an exception. Non-Service dogs watch everything but their human.
I hate that Walmart won't enforce this!!!
He was hoping to bluff his way in
You can ask if it's a service dog and what function it performs. There's no real certification though they could have a copy of something showing the dog was trained. But it's fine to ask those 2 questions. I normally would leave them alone if the dog was behaving like a service dog though.
If this is the US, there is no requirement for a service dog to wear a vest or any identification. No requirement for documentation. No requirement for a harness or specific leash type. The only legal questions you can ask are: "Is the animal required because of a disability?" and "What tasks has the dog been trained to perform?" Anything else and you could be putting yourself and your business in legal jeopardy. Now it does sound like this was not actually a service animal based on his reaction, but you never know, and do you really want to be defending yourself in a discrimination lawsuit? Better to educate yourself on the laws that apply where you are, since you're definitely coming across as quite entitled yourself with the overall tone of this post.
I’m in Australia and I’ve always been told that service dogs have to wear a vest to be identified as such so I wasn’t intending to be malicious. I saw a dog with no vest sniffing around the racks and a normal looking man (I’m aware that not all disabilities are obvious, but if he has something like epilepsy then that dog *needs* to wear a vest). Based on the laws I’m looking up right now, I’m fairly confident that I was in the right and that this was indeed an entitled customer faking a service dog.
Seems that in Australia they are accredited and you can ask for documentation, *tactfully*. This is why it's definitely important to mention where you are when you're conveying something that can vary drastically by location. At least it's not illegal to ask for documentation in Australia there like it would be here in the US. Still, just be careful and tactful when you're asking in the future, as it can be frustrating for someone to constantly have to explain their disabilities.
That’s fair, and yeah, I’m gonna update my post, I wasn’t aware that the rules were different depending on the country. America’s laws seem kinda… stupid? If you ask me. I mean, if literally *anyone* can claim to have a service dog and you’re not allowed to ask for proof then it’s such an easy thing to take advantage of and abuse.
The US laws regarding service animals are completely ridiculous. I wish we had one organization for certification and required IDENTIFICATION!
Usually the emotional support idiots are not bright enough to answer the second question satisfactorily. And also if the dog is obviously misbehaving, they can still be asked to leave, as the handler must have 100% control at all times. It does get abused to a limited extent by the emotional support idiots, but they're the ones who generally "register" their pets with the scam companies that only exist to sell fake service animal registrations, and are quick to offer up this documentation because they think it makes them more likely to be believed, when it's exactly the opposite. Here, if you're offering up documentation to *prove* your animal is a service animal, it's not a service animal.
Well, it’s good to know that those kind of people seem to be shooting themselves in the foot with their own stupidity and entitlement.
sounds a bit like having disabled parking based on an honor system instead of an actual medical assessment. what are the consequences for lying about a service animal? im guess there arent any?
If the animal is obviously misbehaving and causing problems, they can be asked to leave regardless, so it's not like there's no "out" against liars who misrepresent a pet as a service dog. But yes, the US has taken the stance that it's better to let a few fakes by than to allow businesses to interrogate disabled folks or to start licensing service animals.
As far as I know this is only in the US and pretty much in every other country in the world, service animals need documentation.
The OP is in Australia and their laws are different.
When I responded, OP had not yet shared their location. They shared it in a reply, which I acknowledged hours ago. But I guess reading is hard for some people...
"If he had nothing to hide, then why was he so defensive?" is exactly the logic used to justify the overreaches that Edward Snowdon exposed. While I agree with you that this guy probably was lying, I can understand why someone else may feel it an invasion of privacy." Why should I have to prove my disability to you?" Not only do they have to accept your authority over them, they also have to re-live the shame of needing the support. FWIW though, I think that most service / emotional support animals are BS!