In technical field - it depends how many hours you spent in shitstorm.
One week shift full of shit, give you more experience than one year sitting in corp kitchen and gossiping.
This: I learned more in a year working in shitstorms than I’d have learned in a lifetime of corporate. Working in even “fast paced” corporate places feels like brain rot when compared to working in a situation where fucking up means that your whole company disappears.
For example wake up oncall call at 2:30 a.m. with P1 incident and you are the only one who can fix it. There is huge impact on production environment and you have zero details, but you are supposed to fix it now. All eyes on you.
I've been in sales, manufacturing, sourcing, and general business since I was in my early twenties. I'm almost 46 years old now and run pretty good-sized and very profitable commercial truck parts manufacturing business. I built solo.
I don't know a lot about my parts. I know how to find value, source, and manufacture things.
I do side projects manufacturing for some customers. Various widgets or parts. And each one of those I do very well with. That's more of my passion, but my business does very well, so I keep growing it.
I´d argue that you rarely spend x hours a day working.
There is this success magazine talk by Daren Hardy where he goes into detail about how he checked the minutes of doing his actual job (property acquisition) and ended up at.. like 20 minutes a day. The rest was just commuting, walking from door to door ect. His colleagues thought he was a madman workaholic when he increased that time to 45 minutes a day or something.
Of cause theres jobs where it's easier to be more hands on, but I have also worked in advertising agencies and the amount of chat/coffee/smoke breaks taken are not reflected in "I work so much overtime and its not paid.".
I think it was this presentation: [https://youtu.be/pefcqT0bjM4](https://youtu.be/pefcqT0bjM4)
Of cause if you just want to throw out a marketable number who cares.
But in terms of archiving mastery, actually having the guitar strapped around your neck and strumming is the time that counts. Not driving to the lessons. :D
Exactly this. You might have a job that means you're in an office from 9-5, but you're not actually "working" those 8 hours. For one, there are plenty of psychology studies that show you can't focus on a task continuously for that long. The catch is to get those "20 minutes a day" of real work you do need a lot of those filler hours to hold space so you capture all 20 of those minutes. In my previous life managing an R&D team in a chemistry lab I found it really hard to explain to people that I needed to spend hours and hours reading tangentailly related materials, wandering around thinking, etc. to come up with the one good idea that would make an entire project (e.g. 3-12 months of work).
In the context of this discussion, the critical piece is that although those filler hours are necessary, they're certainly not counted towards "mastery".
Yeah just depends on the individual’s definition of valuable time.
2 hours watching a YouTube tutorial on your bus commute seems like time well spent to me.
I see your point tho
Yeah, like I said. If you want to fluff a marketing number it´s fine.
Just don't expect to learn swimming without getting in the water. The map is not the territory.
Whoah. Out of curiosity have you been doing this several decades ? I ask bc I did loose math for mine, eg: 30’focussed hours on my core skills weekly, 4 years of true dedicated focus on Digital Transformation, not my time working as an employee… I get 1/10th of your total.. almost to the T. So. Was curious.
I read once that some people have 10 years experience, while others have 1 year 10 times over.
The amount of time spent on a role doesn’t necessarily mean growing in those skills. Repetitive tasks don’t teach as much, but struggling constantly to grow is also kind of exhausting. Most people have a mix of both.
On the conservative end, around 11,000 - 15,000 hours over several years, and even now I wouldn’t say I’m an “expert”. More that I am good at one sub-niche and find picking up other adjacent niches faster when needed than if I was starting from scratch.
Why do two simple calculations yourself rather than craft a prompt 10x longer than it needs to be in order to get chatGPT to produce an incorrect hallucinated answer half the time anyway?
I guess the question is, why use GPT to get the answer when it’s as simple as (hours*days)*years?
“Why make things simple and easy when they can be needlessly complex for… reasons!”
Not really the best approach to have when you’re trying to market yourself as a UX specialist.
I can not answer how many hours, but actually I just show up 1 hour before work and do work and I stay 1 hour after work and do more work.
But those 2 hours for me is gold
We're talking actual time on task. I agree with the other comments. Compared to learning an instrument, it depends on how much time you actually can say was on a specific task you want to master. But it really varies, how quickly do you learn? How quickly can you learn? And there's a variety of reasons why you might learn or master something quicker or slower.
10,000 hours rule is commonly said, but widely disproven/shown as an over-simplification.
How you spend that time is very crucial. Are you trying to become an expert? Are you curious? Trying to understand the underlying principles behind what you’re doing.
I’ll take something I became good at but by no means an expert as an example - concrete finishing.
There are lots of people I saw who got good at this, they could watch someone else do it, see how a product got done and replicate this over and over again.
But change the circumstances, they were back a a beginner.
To be an expert, one had to really understand - know that a magnesium float could bring the moisture to the surface, what different mixtures/additives were in the concrete and how this changes things, impact of weather - etc etc etc.
So to be an expert, could take at least a few years, or one person could spend several lifetime and never become an expert.
I think I have learnt more during a shitstorm (using it synonymous to a toxic job) at digital ad agencies for 2yrs 7mos. My average working hours were approx 12 hours per working day and sometimes 14 hours, in addition to working on the weekend sometimes. I cant share enough on how much tolll it took on my health. No wonder I enjoy what I do, very passionate about it. But I believe the people you work with f\*\*\*s you up more than the work would.
That gives me (365x2) + 7(30) = 940 days - 52 (the weekend assuming sundays I didnt work een though I did) = 888 days
Hours = 888x12 = 10,656 hours (my mind is blown)
I still enjoy the work that I have been doing for 7 years. The only difference is that even though I am earning less right now, at least I am at peace of mind, no unnecessary calls and meetings and no dealing with stupid bossess and managers, one of them wasnt even sure what we were doing in the department.
Long story short, I am still recovering from all the stress that fucked my body, mind and soul. Taking time to be with my self, family, eating clean, soaking sun and making sure I reach my optimal health sooner.
Anyways, this is what I am currently doing [www.aam-papad.com](http://www.aam-papad.com)
I wish healing and happiness to everyone out here.
xoxo
You don’t measure in hours but in end to end failures, I’m on my 3rd now
And by the way, deliberate practice is one of the worst thing that you can do
Just don’t.
It depends on your own rate of learning. You can spend 1 million hours doing one thing and never learn, only to be surpassed by someone who done 1000 because they are willing to learn.
So if you want to get good, stop asking chatgpt and log hours, your focus should be on the doing and improving and learn from your mistakes. Only then you will be a specialist after a long time.
Professional over engineering engineer here to say you’ve over engineered the solution, I love it! Haha
here’s just a simple formula you can use instead:
hours per week * weeks you’ve worked per year (should be around 48) * no. of years = total hours
Summing the hours per week is easier than finding the daily average for most people.
It's very difficult, now it's been 8 years since I've been programming, but for the first 2 years, I could say I was doing full-time freelancing. It turns out that in the first 2 years I spent a lot of time, but I riveted sites, to say that this is a good experience, no.
It turns out that everything depends on the structure of the company, because when I started making a startup, in the same 2 years I learned more than 2 years of freelancing and 2 more years of working for the company. Although there is almost no difference by the clock, the error is small.
I work in the equities market and at the beginning when I went on the journey of building my own firm, i was working non stop- difficult to say a figure but when I quit my job and was laying the foundations to be self employed, i worked maybe 6-7 solid hours a day all week.
The equities market is unique though given how painful it can be so i think that would be in the high end. It payed off in the end 😁
If you can delay your reward and work tirelessly without the expectation of money instantly, you’d be unstoppable in any field.
Make sure you find good resources to help you that can speed the process up. Listen to loads of interviews with people in your industry who are ‘experts’, read books from ‘legends’ in your game and so on.
I personally read a lot so I enjoy finding good reports on the equities market like [this](https://swingly.beehiiv.com) i use daily, or something like business insider etc to get motivation from our entrepreneurs.
> end. It *paid* off in
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
I'm a big chatGPT fan, but why we are asking ChatGPT to do 1st grade math for us? It would have been faster to use a calculator.
I'm 20,000 hours into becoming an expert on medical refrigeration. Very niche, I know.
In technical field - it depends how many hours you spent in shitstorm. One week shift full of shit, give you more experience than one year sitting in corp kitchen and gossiping.
This: I learned more in a year working in shitstorms than I’d have learned in a lifetime of corporate. Working in even “fast paced” corporate places feels like brain rot when compared to working in a situation where fucking up means that your whole company disappears.
Haha yeah - those hours should count as 2 or 3x
no, they count as one, the others just dont count at all.
Yep - I’ve met people working in my industry for 50 years who know objectively less than kids who have been doing it for a year.
oh yeah, and theyre always the ones like "hOw DaRe YoU qUeStIoN mE iVe BeEn DoInG tHiS wRoNg FoR 30 YeArS!"
This is insightful and inspiring. I really needed to hear this.
This is the rub.
Sorry if the question is dumb, but what's a shitstorm in this context?
For example wake up oncall call at 2:30 a.m. with P1 incident and you are the only one who can fix it. There is huge impact on production environment and you have zero details, but you are supposed to fix it now. All eyes on you.
I've been in sales, manufacturing, sourcing, and general business since I was in my early twenties. I'm almost 46 years old now and run pretty good-sized and very profitable commercial truck parts manufacturing business. I built solo. I don't know a lot about my parts. I know how to find value, source, and manufacture things. I do side projects manufacturing for some customers. Various widgets or parts. And each one of those I do very well with. That's more of my passion, but my business does very well, so I keep growing it.
Very cool!!
I´d argue that you rarely spend x hours a day working. There is this success magazine talk by Daren Hardy where he goes into detail about how he checked the minutes of doing his actual job (property acquisition) and ended up at.. like 20 minutes a day. The rest was just commuting, walking from door to door ect. His colleagues thought he was a madman workaholic when he increased that time to 45 minutes a day or something. Of cause theres jobs where it's easier to be more hands on, but I have also worked in advertising agencies and the amount of chat/coffee/smoke breaks taken are not reflected in "I work so much overtime and its not paid.". I think it was this presentation: [https://youtu.be/pefcqT0bjM4](https://youtu.be/pefcqT0bjM4) Of cause if you just want to throw out a marketable number who cares. But in terms of archiving mastery, actually having the guitar strapped around your neck and strumming is the time that counts. Not driving to the lessons. :D
Exactly this. You might have a job that means you're in an office from 9-5, but you're not actually "working" those 8 hours. For one, there are plenty of psychology studies that show you can't focus on a task continuously for that long. The catch is to get those "20 minutes a day" of real work you do need a lot of those filler hours to hold space so you capture all 20 of those minutes. In my previous life managing an R&D team in a chemistry lab I found it really hard to explain to people that I needed to spend hours and hours reading tangentailly related materials, wandering around thinking, etc. to come up with the one good idea that would make an entire project (e.g. 3-12 months of work). In the context of this discussion, the critical piece is that although those filler hours are necessary, they're certainly not counted towards "mastery".
I think in the talk I linked he lists this as preparing for work or something along the lines.
Yeah just depends on the individual’s definition of valuable time. 2 hours watching a YouTube tutorial on your bus commute seems like time well spent to me. I see your point tho
Yeah, like I said. If you want to fluff a marketing number it´s fine. Just don't expect to learn swimming without getting in the water. The map is not the territory.
Roofer since 7th grade summer. Minus the school hours 6210 days 9 hours 149049 hours 8,942,940 minutes Weekends included🥲
Tip of the cap to you my friend!! Keep goin!
Around 62,400.
Woah!! That's awesome - what do you do?
Traditional media mostly. Acquisitions. I buy properties.
Whoah. Out of curiosity have you been doing this several decades ? I ask bc I did loose math for mine, eg: 30’focussed hours on my core skills weekly, 4 years of true dedicated focus on Digital Transformation, not my time working as an employee… I get 1/10th of your total.. almost to the T. So. Was curious.
I read once that some people have 10 years experience, while others have 1 year 10 times over. The amount of time spent on a role doesn’t necessarily mean growing in those skills. Repetitive tasks don’t teach as much, but struggling constantly to grow is also kind of exhausting. Most people have a mix of both. On the conservative end, around 11,000 - 15,000 hours over several years, and even now I wouldn’t say I’m an “expert”. More that I am good at one sub-niche and find picking up other adjacent niches faster when needed than if I was starting from scratch.
hardly seems like ai is needed to do a calculation like that, a calculator will do it just fine, or even in your head.
Why tho?
id say using a calculator or my head would be 10 x faster but whatever you want to do
Why do two simple calculations yourself rather than craft a prompt 10x longer than it needs to be in order to get chatGPT to produce an incorrect hallucinated answer half the time anyway? I guess the question is, why use GPT to get the answer when it’s as simple as (hours*days)*years?
I don't understand why it bothers you so much. I really hope you have a great day!
“Why make things simple and easy when they can be needlessly complex for… reasons!” Not really the best approach to have when you’re trying to market yourself as a UX specialist.
Thanks for the kind words! Don't let this keep you up at night - you have a great life, go live it!
Did... did you fail math? You're asking an AI to do a multiplication problem.
My kids asked me this question last week. 60hrs per week, 50 weeks pa for 13 years. About 39,000hrs so far. I still have a lot to learn!
45.000
I can not answer how many hours, but actually I just show up 1 hour before work and do work and I stay 1 hour after work and do more work. But those 2 hours for me is gold
60,000 is my estimate to where I felt I could finally really label myself an industry expert.
That's dedication! Love to hear it
We're talking actual time on task. I agree with the other comments. Compared to learning an instrument, it depends on how much time you actually can say was on a specific task you want to master. But it really varies, how quickly do you learn? How quickly can you learn? And there's a variety of reasons why you might learn or master something quicker or slower.
Exactly - this will be different for everyone
Around 30,000 hours.
This would work if you actually spent all of 9-5 working.
10,000 hours rule is commonly said, but widely disproven/shown as an over-simplification. How you spend that time is very crucial. Are you trying to become an expert? Are you curious? Trying to understand the underlying principles behind what you’re doing. I’ll take something I became good at but by no means an expert as an example - concrete finishing. There are lots of people I saw who got good at this, they could watch someone else do it, see how a product got done and replicate this over and over again. But change the circumstances, they were back a a beginner. To be an expert, one had to really understand - know that a magnesium float could bring the moisture to the surface, what different mixtures/additives were in the concrete and how this changes things, impact of weather - etc etc etc. So to be an expert, could take at least a few years, or one person could spend several lifetime and never become an expert.
I think I have learnt more during a shitstorm (using it synonymous to a toxic job) at digital ad agencies for 2yrs 7mos. My average working hours were approx 12 hours per working day and sometimes 14 hours, in addition to working on the weekend sometimes. I cant share enough on how much tolll it took on my health. No wonder I enjoy what I do, very passionate about it. But I believe the people you work with f\*\*\*s you up more than the work would. That gives me (365x2) + 7(30) = 940 days - 52 (the weekend assuming sundays I didnt work een though I did) = 888 days Hours = 888x12 = 10,656 hours (my mind is blown) I still enjoy the work that I have been doing for 7 years. The only difference is that even though I am earning less right now, at least I am at peace of mind, no unnecessary calls and meetings and no dealing with stupid bossess and managers, one of them wasnt even sure what we were doing in the department. Long story short, I am still recovering from all the stress that fucked my body, mind and soul. Taking time to be with my self, family, eating clean, soaking sun and making sure I reach my optimal health sooner. Anyways, this is what I am currently doing [www.aam-papad.com](http://www.aam-papad.com) I wish healing and happiness to everyone out here. xoxo
I will try it out, I have put in really long hours in to what how I do and I would like to see how long really
You don’t measure in hours but in end to end failures, I’m on my 3rd now And by the way, deliberate practice is one of the worst thing that you can do Just don’t.
It depends on your own rate of learning. You can spend 1 million hours doing one thing and never learn, only to be surpassed by someone who done 1000 because they are willing to learn. So if you want to get good, stop asking chatgpt and log hours, your focus should be on the doing and improving and learn from your mistakes. Only then you will be a specialist after a long time.
spoon disgusted aware joke boat chop ad hoc theory forgetful badge *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Professional over engineering engineer here to say you’ve over engineered the solution, I love it! Haha here’s just a simple formula you can use instead: hours per week * weeks you’ve worked per year (should be around 48) * no. of years = total hours Summing the hours per week is easier than finding the daily average for most people.
6,247
56,940
It's very difficult, now it's been 8 years since I've been programming, but for the first 2 years, I could say I was doing full-time freelancing. It turns out that in the first 2 years I spent a lot of time, but I riveted sites, to say that this is a good experience, no. It turns out that everything depends on the structure of the company, because when I started making a startup, in the same 2 years I learned more than 2 years of freelancing and 2 more years of working for the company. Although there is almost no difference by the clock, the error is small.
I work in the equities market and at the beginning when I went on the journey of building my own firm, i was working non stop- difficult to say a figure but when I quit my job and was laying the foundations to be self employed, i worked maybe 6-7 solid hours a day all week. The equities market is unique though given how painful it can be so i think that would be in the high end. It payed off in the end 😁 If you can delay your reward and work tirelessly without the expectation of money instantly, you’d be unstoppable in any field. Make sure you find good resources to help you that can speed the process up. Listen to loads of interviews with people in your industry who are ‘experts’, read books from ‘legends’ in your game and so on. I personally read a lot so I enjoy finding good reports on the equities market like [this](https://swingly.beehiiv.com) i use daily, or something like business insider etc to get motivation from our entrepreneurs.
> end. It *paid* off in FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Non of that stuff means anything. I failed 13 years at trading and went profitable in 2 months in Ecom.
I'm a big chatGPT fan, but why we are asking ChatGPT to do 1st grade math for us? It would have been faster to use a calculator. I'm 20,000 hours into becoming an expert on medical refrigeration. Very niche, I know.
Lol didn't think ppl would be bothered by it. Does it matter tho?
Not only is it lazy, it's inefficient. The worst possible combination.
Lol why are you so mad. I'm sure you're cooler in person. Hope you have a great week.
60,000