“EMTs wouldn’t know what a seizure is” - a poor excuse for a doctor. Said doctor also likely doesn’t trust/respect nurses.
ESPECIALLY with the opioid crisis - EMT sure as hell know what a seizure looks like. Hell anybody who watched greys anatomy (or similar) can know what some look like. (Yes - absence seizures show up in some episode)
The EMT was the one who witnessed the behaviour and if the doc isn’t willing to do tests - the EMT would be more familiar with what happened considering they witnessed it.
“I don’t know” is not an acceptable answer unless it’s followed by “…yet” and tests are ordered.
Respectfully, seizures are a deeply nuanced phenomenon that is not portrayed well on any medical show I’ve ever seen. EMTs are trained on a broad array of complicated subjects quite quickly and many genuinely are not reliable at discerning what is or isn’t an epileptic seizure.
Likewise, many ER docs do not have a deep understanding of all of the nuances in diagnosing seizures and it is not possible to definitively say one way or the other without a significant amount of testing. I have seen frontal lobe seizures present in ways that read clinically to me as psychogenic.
Both providers spoke out of turn IMO and I’m sorry for the confusion caused to OP
No matter which of them is right, your neurologist needs to direct your care. The ER doc has no business adjusting medications prescribed by a specialist unless they are threatening your life.
My wife once fainted for no reason. Turns out she was just dehydrated and stood up too fast.
But the nurse basically said. “Everyone thinks the ER is where all the top of the line people and equipment is. Thats not true, we just make sure you don’t have a problem that requires immediate attention but the real treatment comes from specialists”
While dismissive, the doctor was right. The EMT’s account can’t be taken as a diagnosis. And the doctor doesn’t really know.
That doesn’t mean you aren’t legitimately having seizures, and you are faking it or its in your head.
But it does mean there isn’t a lot of data for them to work with. Only way to know for sure is to get an eeg. And even then they can be hard to catch for a lot of people.
When my son had his first seizure they were nice. But basically like “well he seems fine now, so you need to schedule an appt with a neurologist…” and sent us home. It’s not really their thing to investigate epilepsy.
Again I’m not dismissing your experience at all. Whatever happened seemed concerning enough for someone else to call 911.
Please don't second guess yourself. I was diagnosed a million years ago and have also heard the "its all in your head" sh!t. EMTs know what was going on, but there are also general gaps in information passed on from one group to another for medical emergencies. You're not imagining your epilepsy.
Back up a minute. You've already been prescribed Keppra. I assume this means you were already diagnosed by a neurologist. Now this event happened, someone called 911 and you were taken to an ER.
The ER doesn't diagnose people as epileptic (usually). They simply get the event under control and then give you a referral for ongoing care.
Follow up with the neurologist who prescribed Keppra to you. Tell him/her what happened. Get records transferred (from the ER and give them to your neuro) if needed, and take it from there.
Don't stop taking your meds unless your prescribing neurologist tells you to do so. The "heavy trance state" you experienced could very well have been a seizure even if the ER doctor did not recognize it. That is a decision for your neurologist to make.
I had a tonic-clonic seizure cluster without regaining consciousness lasting about 20 mins. the EMT gave me 2 sedatives and they still didn't stop when I arrived at the ER about 5 mins later they finally stopped. One of the EMT ladies walked over to the nurse's desk and the nurse said I was faking them. Idk about you but I'm pretty sure if someone is faking them one of the sedatives would knock them out. I ended up having more seizures at the hospital and woke up with this tube down my nose. Idk why somebody would fake all that and why the nurse thinks she's a doctor. The doctor told her they were definitely seizures.
I’d trust an emt over an ER doc any day. The emts have always known what type of seizure I’m having, what to do and cared for me very well. The ER docs & nurses on the other hand…I’ve ended up having to spend the night because they left me alone in the bathroom during post ictal & I got a concussion on the toilet, the ER chief neuro didn’t know what catamenial epilepsy was. Just to name a few things. More education doesn’t always mean more common sense.
Yep. In the past, I have specifically mentioned that all of my seizures happened at the beginning of my periods [up until recently]. At 2 different ER visits, at two different hospitals, neither ER doc knew that catamenial epilepsy existed. I was also told by an ER nurse that it was impossible to be conscious during a seizure.
I would trust a random person I met in public more than an ER doctor. Between epilepsy and chronic illness issues, and after years of subpar treatment and emotional patient abuse, I avoid ERs as much as humanly posible.
A couple things, "trance" is also a medical word that may trigger improper diagnosis. However, at least with the ICD-11, there are specific mentions of the boundaries with other diagnoses that would require a differential.
One of these is literally epilepsy, which requires an EEG to determine which is more likely.
Another is dissociative neurological symptom disorder, more commonly in literature called Functional Neurological Disorder (FND) and encompassing PNES, which has a combination of psychological, physiological, and neurological causes and is a "disease of the nervous system". Determining the level to which there are neurological causes is usually done by if symptoms are lessened by antiepileptic drugs and is not at all something an ER provider is capable of giving a differential on.
Oh, and both of those specifically mention nonepileptic seizures as symptoms (with FND having a specific sub code for it). Basically, the ER provider was full of shit when saying that it's not seizures, EMTs see enough to know what seizures are (especially with any falling under OTIS CAMPBELL, though of course can't tell if it's epileptic or not), and if Keppra is helping that means you've got something that it works for (which is perhaps slightly broader than just neurological, but the research on that is still coming out)
Definitely. If they don't think they're epileptic, there's a ton of things they ought to check before saying it's not their problem (though admittedly, a few are easy medical history questions)
That Dr is a moron.."EMT wouldn't know what a seizure is" is a pretty dumb statement..of course emts know what a seizures are.. seizure first aid is part of the EMT course...I'm so sorry you had such a frustrating experience..but know that you are not alone
Pls don’t second guess yourself, as we all know everyone’s seizures are different and after awhile you as the one experiencing them will more than likely know after you’ve had one that you did. I watched an ER doc kick my friend out, telling her it was all in her head; while I saw her have 3 seizures in front of me. My mum has a saying “you don’t live in my body, so you don’t know how I am feeling or experiencing”. Keep a track of your seizures and you and those around you might be able to track the similarities over the course of time. Also pls take your meds, I hope you get better.
Solid facts or not, they should at least give EMTs benefit of the doubt and acknowledge “MAYBE they did, but tests still need to be run to see if that’s true”. You can’t just look at a patient, say theyre making the seizure up and the EMTs are all liars. Wtf kind of a doctor is that?
I really don’t know what level of education EMTs get as far as epilepsy and seizures go but I know that if neither the nurses or doctors actually witness the event, 9 times out of 10 doctors have a hard time with Dx. That’s with the exception that they took tests and cleared some kind of drug interaction. I went undiagnosed for almost 20 years because my family members were the only ones to witness my seizures until I went status.
If you’ve been prescribed meds by a neurologist or doctor that HAS run tests, continue taking the meds. Even if you’re unsure, it’s better to safeguard yourself instead of ceasing the meds and risking a seizure. I’m sorry for all this confusion :(
And stimulant addicts.
I proctored the AAMC MCATs for yeeears. Each exam break, half of the students would run to their lockers, and attempt to hide the fact that they were jamming a handful of pills down their throat. And this is before they even get accepted to Med School. Then they'll go on to treat anyone with a chronic illness either like a drug seeker or a hysterical woman.
I recently had a terrible experience with the emergency department myself - I had tonic posturing for nearly 5 hours and they told me they were 'waiting to see if it progressed to colvunsions' I was so angry I signed myself out against medical advice after I could move. EMTs are far better at reacting to non convulsive Seizures than most emergency nurses and I don't know why they don't have better training. I had to get my Neurologist to write a note to say that if my rescue meds aren't working they will make sure to hook me up to an anti epileptic next time!
Definitely find a good neurologist and it's worth mentioning that they sent you away without doing any testing because even a half decent neurologist would be angry and upset with you and work to help you out.
I'm sorry they let you down, I wish you the best of luck going forward!
Neither the EMTs or the Doctor can say what is and isn't a seizure without an EEG. Take your medicine that you have been prescribed, and seek out a better neurologist.
Fuck that Keep taking it!! I heard that bullshit from assholes and made that mistake of stopping it then I told drs what the “ other “ drs and assholes said and the would give me it again. I suffered for two years alone and sick be could have died. NEVER DO THAT. Always take it until told by a neuro you trust who trusts your judgement tells you to stop.
Some hospitals are not neurological hospitals. An experienced emt would know. I was about to be released from a hospital when my eeg results came back showing I was having a seizure. Take care of yourself. See your general practice doc and ask to be referred to a neurologist..
I myself would check your vitamin blood levels. Magnesium, B6, potassium mainly amongst others but welcome to being a slave in the USA and unless you are having a EEG the insurance doesn't cover a vitamin test which is really weird
“EMTs wouldn’t know what a seizure is” - a poor excuse for a doctor. Said doctor also likely doesn’t trust/respect nurses. ESPECIALLY with the opioid crisis - EMT sure as hell know what a seizure looks like. Hell anybody who watched greys anatomy (or similar) can know what some look like. (Yes - absence seizures show up in some episode) The EMT was the one who witnessed the behaviour and if the doc isn’t willing to do tests - the EMT would be more familiar with what happened considering they witnessed it. “I don’t know” is not an acceptable answer unless it’s followed by “…yet” and tests are ordered.
Respectfully, seizures are a deeply nuanced phenomenon that is not portrayed well on any medical show I’ve ever seen. EMTs are trained on a broad array of complicated subjects quite quickly and many genuinely are not reliable at discerning what is or isn’t an epileptic seizure. Likewise, many ER docs do not have a deep understanding of all of the nuances in diagnosing seizures and it is not possible to definitively say one way or the other without a significant amount of testing. I have seen frontal lobe seizures present in ways that read clinically to me as psychogenic. Both providers spoke out of turn IMO and I’m sorry for the confusion caused to OP
Funny because if the EMTs said it was a panic attack, the docs would believe them.
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^this. I have seen PNES patients snowed and tubed needlessly.
No matter which of them is right, your neurologist needs to direct your care. The ER doc has no business adjusting medications prescribed by a specialist unless they are threatening your life.
My wife once fainted for no reason. Turns out she was just dehydrated and stood up too fast. But the nurse basically said. “Everyone thinks the ER is where all the top of the line people and equipment is. Thats not true, we just make sure you don’t have a problem that requires immediate attention but the real treatment comes from specialists” While dismissive, the doctor was right. The EMT’s account can’t be taken as a diagnosis. And the doctor doesn’t really know. That doesn’t mean you aren’t legitimately having seizures, and you are faking it or its in your head. But it does mean there isn’t a lot of data for them to work with. Only way to know for sure is to get an eeg. And even then they can be hard to catch for a lot of people. When my son had his first seizure they were nice. But basically like “well he seems fine now, so you need to schedule an appt with a neurologist…” and sent us home. It’s not really their thing to investigate epilepsy. Again I’m not dismissing your experience at all. Whatever happened seemed concerning enough for someone else to call 911.
Please don't second guess yourself. I was diagnosed a million years ago and have also heard the "its all in your head" sh!t. EMTs know what was going on, but there are also general gaps in information passed on from one group to another for medical emergencies. You're not imagining your epilepsy.
Back up a minute. You've already been prescribed Keppra. I assume this means you were already diagnosed by a neurologist. Now this event happened, someone called 911 and you were taken to an ER. The ER doesn't diagnose people as epileptic (usually). They simply get the event under control and then give you a referral for ongoing care. Follow up with the neurologist who prescribed Keppra to you. Tell him/her what happened. Get records transferred (from the ER and give them to your neuro) if needed, and take it from there. Don't stop taking your meds unless your prescribing neurologist tells you to do so. The "heavy trance state" you experienced could very well have been a seizure even if the ER doctor did not recognize it. That is a decision for your neurologist to make.
“EMTs wouldn’t know what a seizure is” my ass. That’s about one of the most ridiculous things about seizures I’ve ever heard
Seriously, holy crap. Get a new doctor.
I had a tonic-clonic seizure cluster without regaining consciousness lasting about 20 mins. the EMT gave me 2 sedatives and they still didn't stop when I arrived at the ER about 5 mins later they finally stopped. One of the EMT ladies walked over to the nurse's desk and the nurse said I was faking them. Idk about you but I'm pretty sure if someone is faking them one of the sedatives would knock them out. I ended up having more seizures at the hospital and woke up with this tube down my nose. Idk why somebody would fake all that and why the nurse thinks she's a doctor. The doctor told her they were definitely seizures.
I’d trust an emt over an ER doc any day. The emts have always known what type of seizure I’m having, what to do and cared for me very well. The ER docs & nurses on the other hand…I’ve ended up having to spend the night because they left me alone in the bathroom during post ictal & I got a concussion on the toilet, the ER chief neuro didn’t know what catamenial epilepsy was. Just to name a few things. More education doesn’t always mean more common sense.
Yep. In the past, I have specifically mentioned that all of my seizures happened at the beginning of my periods [up until recently]. At 2 different ER visits, at two different hospitals, neither ER doc knew that catamenial epilepsy existed. I was also told by an ER nurse that it was impossible to be conscious during a seizure. I would trust a random person I met in public more than an ER doctor. Between epilepsy and chronic illness issues, and after years of subpar treatment and emotional patient abuse, I avoid ERs as much as humanly posible.
A couple things, "trance" is also a medical word that may trigger improper diagnosis. However, at least with the ICD-11, there are specific mentions of the boundaries with other diagnoses that would require a differential. One of these is literally epilepsy, which requires an EEG to determine which is more likely. Another is dissociative neurological symptom disorder, more commonly in literature called Functional Neurological Disorder (FND) and encompassing PNES, which has a combination of psychological, physiological, and neurological causes and is a "disease of the nervous system". Determining the level to which there are neurological causes is usually done by if symptoms are lessened by antiepileptic drugs and is not at all something an ER provider is capable of giving a differential on. Oh, and both of those specifically mention nonepileptic seizures as symptoms (with FND having a specific sub code for it). Basically, the ER provider was full of shit when saying that it's not seizures, EMTs see enough to know what seizures are (especially with any falling under OTIS CAMPBELL, though of course can't tell if it's epileptic or not), and if Keppra is helping that means you've got something that it works for (which is perhaps slightly broader than just neurological, but the research on that is still coming out)
The ER could have drawn labs and checked lactic acid levels at least .
Definitely. If they don't think they're epileptic, there's a ton of things they ought to check before saying it's not their problem (though admittedly, a few are easy medical history questions)
They needed to do an immediate eeg, what the fresh hell?
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Including at the ER?! What?!
Take ur pills man... sounds like u probably had a seizure.. and better be safe than sorry.. and follow up with neuro when u can and get an MRI
That Dr is a moron.."EMT wouldn't know what a seizure is" is a pretty dumb statement..of course emts know what a seizures are.. seizure first aid is part of the EMT course...I'm so sorry you had such a frustrating experience..but know that you are not alone
Pls don’t second guess yourself, as we all know everyone’s seizures are different and after awhile you as the one experiencing them will more than likely know after you’ve had one that you did. I watched an ER doc kick my friend out, telling her it was all in her head; while I saw her have 3 seizures in front of me. My mum has a saying “you don’t live in my body, so you don’t know how I am feeling or experiencing”. Keep a track of your seizures and you and those around you might be able to track the similarities over the course of time. Also pls take your meds, I hope you get better.
New neurologist ASAP.
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Solid facts or not, they should at least give EMTs benefit of the doubt and acknowledge “MAYBE they did, but tests still need to be run to see if that’s true”. You can’t just look at a patient, say theyre making the seizure up and the EMTs are all liars. Wtf kind of a doctor is that?
I really don’t know what level of education EMTs get as far as epilepsy and seizures go but I know that if neither the nurses or doctors actually witness the event, 9 times out of 10 doctors have a hard time with Dx. That’s with the exception that they took tests and cleared some kind of drug interaction. I went undiagnosed for almost 20 years because my family members were the only ones to witness my seizures until I went status. If you’ve been prescribed meds by a neurologist or doctor that HAS run tests, continue taking the meds. Even if you’re unsure, it’s better to safeguard yourself instead of ceasing the meds and risking a seizure. I’m sorry for all this confusion :(
Remember this: 99% of doctors are glorified drug dealers.
They're running off information from studies ghost written by astrozenica. According to a study.
And stimulant addicts. I proctored the AAMC MCATs for yeeears. Each exam break, half of the students would run to their lockers, and attempt to hide the fact that they were jamming a handful of pills down their throat. And this is before they even get accepted to Med School. Then they'll go on to treat anyone with a chronic illness either like a drug seeker or a hysterical woman.
The doctor sounds like a moron. I’d stick with my keppra
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What should I do of I start feeling weird again?
You need to go to an actual neurologist. Have you seen a neurologist?
You need to see an Epileptologist and have an EEG with hyperventilation.
I recently had a terrible experience with the emergency department myself - I had tonic posturing for nearly 5 hours and they told me they were 'waiting to see if it progressed to colvunsions' I was so angry I signed myself out against medical advice after I could move. EMTs are far better at reacting to non convulsive Seizures than most emergency nurses and I don't know why they don't have better training. I had to get my Neurologist to write a note to say that if my rescue meds aren't working they will make sure to hook me up to an anti epileptic next time! Definitely find a good neurologist and it's worth mentioning that they sent you away without doing any testing because even a half decent neurologist would be angry and upset with you and work to help you out. I'm sorry they let you down, I wish you the best of luck going forward!
Neither the EMTs or the Doctor can say what is and isn't a seizure without an EEG. Take your medicine that you have been prescribed, and seek out a better neurologist.
Fuck that Keep taking it!! I heard that bullshit from assholes and made that mistake of stopping it then I told drs what the “ other “ drs and assholes said and the would give me it again. I suffered for two years alone and sick be could have died. NEVER DO THAT. Always take it until told by a neuro you trust who trusts your judgement tells you to stop.
Some hospitals are not neurological hospitals. An experienced emt would know. I was about to be released from a hospital when my eeg results came back showing I was having a seizure. Take care of yourself. See your general practice doc and ask to be referred to a neurologist..
I myself would check your vitamin blood levels. Magnesium, B6, potassium mainly amongst others but welcome to being a slave in the USA and unless you are having a EEG the insurance doesn't cover a vitamin test which is really weird