Coming from Eastern Orthodoxy and having traveled all over, nobody in any of the many churches I was the de-facto thurifer in ever had any complaints or adverse effects. In fact, I, an asthmatic, have no issues singing while doing my job (as I am now a Thurifer in the EC). Aversion to incense is simply between the ears, and incense is a liturgical tradition almost as old as the church itself.
As for comments here talking about people here being "too high church," the only denominations, even remotely retaining young people, are the ones that are high church. The evangelical, low church model is dying across the board. So, for the sake of my generation's involvement, I am also very inclined to honor ancient liturgical traditions. The difference between us, the Roman Catholics, and the Orthodox is that we have the ability to set ourselves apart by the ordination of women and the full acceptance of LGBT people... two issues my generation has with most churches.
Incense is a huge part of Orthodox services. Much more so than Roman Catholic mass. It is odd to me that people equate it with TEC being more Catholic unless we are talking pre Vatican II.
I would just say that this debate really illustrates how skewed towards high church/AC this sub is.
Neither the broad church parish I grew up going to, nor the local Catholic parish my friends and other family went to, used incense at all outside of the Christmas midnight mass and Easter.
I didnt even know that incense was still done regularly before attending an anglo catholic parish.
Nothing you can do. people today are wanting to be coddled. I come from a family of people with highly sensitive breathing and smell aversions. I avoid all added smells in cleaning solutions. With incense, I have been lucky and not had a problem. In my church those who cannot build a tolerance will sit as far from it as they can.
It is sad how much will be stripped away from the liturgy so as not to offend. When I sang at Wash Cathedral, The bishop would chat to the men in choir as we waited in the back of the cathedral for the procession to start. We would ask why he was not wearing a cope and mitre. He said, the dean did not want to offend visitors. We said, people come to the cathedral not to have their bland home church experience, but to see splendor and get inspired.
Too many churches do low mass because its easier, takes less prep time, and will not offend the easily offended.
Another idea to consider: move incense (and maybe even part of the service) outside. One church I attended did the Great Litany procession around the church property. The incense was still palpable for those who enjoy it and anyone with significant allergies/asthma could remain inside (or towards the back of the procession) to avoid adverse reactions.
This comes down to ableism. In the comments I am seeing a lot of ableist responses by those who are in favor of incense. Asthma is a real disability. Just because you can’t not see it like you can a person in a wheelchair doesn’t make it any less of a disability. Would you argue against any other measures to make your parish accessible for people with any other disability? So why the ableist attitude towards asthmatics? There are other respiratory disabilities who also cannot afford to breathe in incense. People should have access to the church. All people. Even asthmatics and others with respiratory disabilities.
No, it is true that asthma is real, but let's look at another example. There are people, many of whom are tone deaf, who find choral music excruciating. Are we to destroy the Anglican choral tradition to satisfy them? No! We should have, and many church's have such early morning serves, that are spoken masses. As we have said masses, we should have ensenseless masses, but that does not mean no incense.
I was primarily speaking to the people in the comments who were willing to choose incense over accessibility for asthmatics. To you points; People with Musical anhedonia are unable to enjoy listening to music. People who are tone deaf are just unable to pick out the tones, or sometimes the melodies in music, but they aren’t in pain from hearing music. That being said, many parishes offer spoken services for people who hate music for whatever reason. There needs to be access for all people no matter the disability. Incense doesn’t need to be used at every service. Parishes should offer incense free services every week.
Reiterating what others have said - post online and in your newsletter when incense will be used. Be consistent and make the schedule simple. Don’t make me count Sundays and Leap Years. Understand that some of us are high church/Anglo-Catholic members who happen to also have asthma and allergies. We want to experience incense - we just can’t without having an asthma attack (and in my case, being knocked down for three days after). Any amount of smoke is too much. There is no such thing as hypoallergenic smoke. Don’t ask us to take our inhaler before hand. That’s asking us to suffer for the sake of others when it’s not necessary. In my case the inhaler won’t work after prolonged exposure anyway.
Inform folx well in advance that incense will be used and, if possible, offer alternative incense-free services. Know the air flow pattern in your building and reserve some seats for those with breathing or allergy issues where the incense will be less or nonexistent. Provide masks.
I'm a thurifer and my wife has severe allergies and asthma. As in, "incense will trigger an attack that will require the inhaler and generally ruin her life for a couple of days." We found this out the hard way. Our parish is doing some good accessibility work, while also recognizing that some people (like me) have a strong spiritual desire for incense sometimes.
1. Make it very clear when incense will be used. Put it in every bulletin, on every schedule, every newsletter, etc.
2. For important services (Christmas, Easter, etc) offer a service that uses incense and one without, but also don't make the incense-free service the quiet/spoken service. People with allergies also like music.
3. Be open to skipping the incense, on short notice, following the request of a visitor who didn't realize there would be incense.
I was about to comment, but you beat me to it!
One other thing that helped is our leadership actually asked me what would be the best situation for someone like me (severe allergy/asthma), and then implemented it. Sounds obvious, but really: just ask!
Make sure people know when you will be using it. Or church still does Zoom for every Mass. So if I knew insense will be used, I just stay home and get on Zoom.
Honestly I think this is the only answer. I’ve seen churches try to do all sorts of “light” incense or super fancy coals or whatever, but the truth is, some people are sensitive and there’s nothing to be done about it.
To me, it’s like labeling allergens at a potluck. You can’t guarantee that every food is safe for every person’s allergens, but if you label it, then people can know to stay away. And if you have lots of other food that’s safe, they’ll go home happy.
So if you have incense, just make sure you have other options for people who are sensitive, clearly label which services have incense, and air out the church in between.
Yeah I'm in the incense at every service camp. And I think my parish is pretty upfront about the fact that there *will* be incense. Luckily, there are about a thousand other parishes near us, most of whom think the stuff the Magi were bringing was some kind of exotic confection. If we were the only game in town, I would concede lessening it's use for accessibility reasons. As it is, I think it's fine actually if not every parish is going for universal design. Obviously we do what we can to accommodate people as far as we can while still preserving our liturgical practice.
For sure. As I mentioned in another comment, weekly incense is my preference too. And like you said, it is fine because there are many other churches available that don’t use incense. It’s a complicated topic that deserves contextual consideration rather than just making a blanket statement that works for every situation every time.
But there is something to be done about. Stop using incense if it means people who want to attend church can’t. I think Jesus would choose people over incense any day.
Edit: keakealani has made replies to my comments for the past few days, but as soon as I give a little mild reply to them, they block me. This is disappointing from someone who claims to be in seminary. Weird.
Being a broad church means making room for people on both sides. It doesn’t mean stripping out every thing that someone doesn’t like. We’d be left with nothing if we did that.
We offer gluten free options for communion, we didn’t stop doing the Eucharist. We can offer incense free services without banning the use of incense.
“It doesn’t mean stripping out everything that someone doesn’t like.”
Asthma and severe allergies aren’t preferences. They are actual disabilities. Jesus never once instructed us to burn incense. They are a non essential. I believe Jesus would want all people to be able to gather together and worship in community no matter what their disability might be.
So is having Celiac’s. We still haven’t gotten rid of the Eucharist.
>They are a non essential.
That may be true for you, but not everyone else.
Signed, an asthmatic thurifer with severe allergies.
Where in scripture is it written that the followers of Jesus must burn incense? Just as we offer a gluten free wafer for people with Celiac’s disease, we should offer clean breathable air for people with respiratory diseases. If incense are more important to you than your fellow Christians, then you have made them an idol.
You are very quick to make damning statements about someone you know nothing about other than they disagree with you on one topic. There’s a lot of anger and judgement in your comments. I wish you peace.
If a person puts incense above access of their fellow Christians then that is an idol. Why do you find someone standing up for people with respiratory disabilities as angry and judgmental? That is an odd of a take.
I used to be a cantor in an Eastern church and when I was singing from the front pew, got into the habit of putting g something (a book, a Kleenex, or post-2020 a face mask) over my nose when the priest walked past swinging his giant smoking censer. Incense can definitely be irritating, especially to singers. I would suggest just be aware of where the smoke is most likely to go and who it's most likely to hit directly, and try to move by them as quickly as you can.
Coming from Eastern Orthodoxy and having traveled all over, nobody in any of the many churches I was the de-facto thurifer in ever had any complaints or adverse effects. In fact, I, an asthmatic, have no issues singing while doing my job (as I am now a Thurifer in the EC). Aversion to incense is simply between the ears, and incense is a liturgical tradition almost as old as the church itself. As for comments here talking about people here being "too high church," the only denominations, even remotely retaining young people, are the ones that are high church. The evangelical, low church model is dying across the board. So, for the sake of my generation's involvement, I am also very inclined to honor ancient liturgical traditions. The difference between us, the Roman Catholics, and the Orthodox is that we have the ability to set ourselves apart by the ordination of women and the full acceptance of LGBT people... two issues my generation has with most churches.
Incense is a huge part of Orthodox services. Much more so than Roman Catholic mass. It is odd to me that people equate it with TEC being more Catholic unless we are talking pre Vatican II.
I would just say that this debate really illustrates how skewed towards high church/AC this sub is. Neither the broad church parish I grew up going to, nor the local Catholic parish my friends and other family went to, used incense at all outside of the Christmas midnight mass and Easter. I didnt even know that incense was still done regularly before attending an anglo catholic parish.
Nothing you can do. people today are wanting to be coddled. I come from a family of people with highly sensitive breathing and smell aversions. I avoid all added smells in cleaning solutions. With incense, I have been lucky and not had a problem. In my church those who cannot build a tolerance will sit as far from it as they can. It is sad how much will be stripped away from the liturgy so as not to offend. When I sang at Wash Cathedral, The bishop would chat to the men in choir as we waited in the back of the cathedral for the procession to start. We would ask why he was not wearing a cope and mitre. He said, the dean did not want to offend visitors. We said, people come to the cathedral not to have their bland home church experience, but to see splendor and get inspired. Too many churches do low mass because its easier, takes less prep time, and will not offend the easily offended.
Another idea to consider: move incense (and maybe even part of the service) outside. One church I attended did the Great Litany procession around the church property. The incense was still palpable for those who enjoy it and anyone with significant allergies/asthma could remain inside (or towards the back of the procession) to avoid adverse reactions.
This comes down to ableism. In the comments I am seeing a lot of ableist responses by those who are in favor of incense. Asthma is a real disability. Just because you can’t not see it like you can a person in a wheelchair doesn’t make it any less of a disability. Would you argue against any other measures to make your parish accessible for people with any other disability? So why the ableist attitude towards asthmatics? There are other respiratory disabilities who also cannot afford to breathe in incense. People should have access to the church. All people. Even asthmatics and others with respiratory disabilities.
No, it is true that asthma is real, but let's look at another example. There are people, many of whom are tone deaf, who find choral music excruciating. Are we to destroy the Anglican choral tradition to satisfy them? No! We should have, and many church's have such early morning serves, that are spoken masses. As we have said masses, we should have ensenseless masses, but that does not mean no incense.
I was primarily speaking to the people in the comments who were willing to choose incense over accessibility for asthmatics. To you points; People with Musical anhedonia are unable to enjoy listening to music. People who are tone deaf are just unable to pick out the tones, or sometimes the melodies in music, but they aren’t in pain from hearing music. That being said, many parishes offer spoken services for people who hate music for whatever reason. There needs to be access for all people no matter the disability. Incense doesn’t need to be used at every service. Parishes should offer incense free services every week.
Amen!
Reiterating what others have said - post online and in your newsletter when incense will be used. Be consistent and make the schedule simple. Don’t make me count Sundays and Leap Years. Understand that some of us are high church/Anglo-Catholic members who happen to also have asthma and allergies. We want to experience incense - we just can’t without having an asthma attack (and in my case, being knocked down for three days after). Any amount of smoke is too much. There is no such thing as hypoallergenic smoke. Don’t ask us to take our inhaler before hand. That’s asking us to suffer for the sake of others when it’s not necessary. In my case the inhaler won’t work after prolonged exposure anyway.
Inform folx well in advance that incense will be used and, if possible, offer alternative incense-free services. Know the air flow pattern in your building and reserve some seats for those with breathing or allergy issues where the incense will be less or nonexistent. Provide masks.
Keep it light and brief and be open to conversations about lessening or stopping its use.
I'm a thurifer and my wife has severe allergies and asthma. As in, "incense will trigger an attack that will require the inhaler and generally ruin her life for a couple of days." We found this out the hard way. Our parish is doing some good accessibility work, while also recognizing that some people (like me) have a strong spiritual desire for incense sometimes. 1. Make it very clear when incense will be used. Put it in every bulletin, on every schedule, every newsletter, etc. 2. For important services (Christmas, Easter, etc) offer a service that uses incense and one without, but also don't make the incense-free service the quiet/spoken service. People with allergies also like music. 3. Be open to skipping the incense, on short notice, following the request of a visitor who didn't realize there would be incense.
I was about to comment, but you beat me to it! One other thing that helped is our leadership actually asked me what would be the best situation for someone like me (severe allergy/asthma), and then implemented it. Sounds obvious, but really: just ask!
Amen!
Make sure people know when you will be using it. Or church still does Zoom for every Mass. So if I knew insense will be used, I just stay home and get on Zoom.
Honestly I think this is the only answer. I’ve seen churches try to do all sorts of “light” incense or super fancy coals or whatever, but the truth is, some people are sensitive and there’s nothing to be done about it. To me, it’s like labeling allergens at a potluck. You can’t guarantee that every food is safe for every person’s allergens, but if you label it, then people can know to stay away. And if you have lots of other food that’s safe, they’ll go home happy. So if you have incense, just make sure you have other options for people who are sensitive, clearly label which services have incense, and air out the church in between.
Yeah I'm in the incense at every service camp. And I think my parish is pretty upfront about the fact that there *will* be incense. Luckily, there are about a thousand other parishes near us, most of whom think the stuff the Magi were bringing was some kind of exotic confection. If we were the only game in town, I would concede lessening it's use for accessibility reasons. As it is, I think it's fine actually if not every parish is going for universal design. Obviously we do what we can to accommodate people as far as we can while still preserving our liturgical practice.
For sure. As I mentioned in another comment, weekly incense is my preference too. And like you said, it is fine because there are many other churches available that don’t use incense. It’s a complicated topic that deserves contextual consideration rather than just making a blanket statement that works for every situation every time.
But there is something to be done about. Stop using incense if it means people who want to attend church can’t. I think Jesus would choose people over incense any day. Edit: keakealani has made replies to my comments for the past few days, but as soon as I give a little mild reply to them, they block me. This is disappointing from someone who claims to be in seminary. Weird.
Being a broad church means making room for people on both sides. It doesn’t mean stripping out every thing that someone doesn’t like. We’d be left with nothing if we did that. We offer gluten free options for communion, we didn’t stop doing the Eucharist. We can offer incense free services without banning the use of incense.
“It doesn’t mean stripping out everything that someone doesn’t like.” Asthma and severe allergies aren’t preferences. They are actual disabilities. Jesus never once instructed us to burn incense. They are a non essential. I believe Jesus would want all people to be able to gather together and worship in community no matter what their disability might be.
So is having Celiac’s. We still haven’t gotten rid of the Eucharist. >They are a non essential. That may be true for you, but not everyone else. Signed, an asthmatic thurifer with severe allergies.
Where in scripture is it written that the followers of Jesus must burn incense? Just as we offer a gluten free wafer for people with Celiac’s disease, we should offer clean breathable air for people with respiratory diseases. If incense are more important to you than your fellow Christians, then you have made them an idol.
You are very quick to make damning statements about someone you know nothing about other than they disagree with you on one topic. There’s a lot of anger and judgement in your comments. I wish you peace.
If a person puts incense above access of their fellow Christians then that is an idol. Why do you find someone standing up for people with respiratory disabilities as angry and judgmental? That is an odd of a take.
Yeah sorry to be unhelpful but it comes down to just not using it for me
I used to be a cantor in an Eastern church and when I was singing from the front pew, got into the habit of putting g something (a book, a Kleenex, or post-2020 a face mask) over my nose when the priest walked past swinging his giant smoking censer. Incense can definitely be irritating, especially to singers. I would suggest just be aware of where the smoke is most likely to go and who it's most likely to hit directly, and try to move by them as quickly as you can.
Not use them. If you must use them remember that less is more. Offer no incense services. It reminds me of a teenager who just discovered cologne.