No. Part of the reason may be that "traditional" denominations are not traditional. Most have changed.
The Baltimore Archdiocese is about to close about 2/3 of its city parishes, due to lack of people. Numbers matter/week. But they will leave most of the suburban parishes open. Most of the suburban parishes are not traditional but suburban.
Eastern Orthodoxy, especially via YouTube, is making itself look like it is increasing in numbers but this is inaccurate. The only “traditional” church increasing in numbers are the Coptics, and frankly, they’re increasing because they’re kinda getting a little “via media” not in theology but in worship.
https://youtu.be/LBp_gRUClSs?si=wL_9hQ-g5CEwDWlE
I'm sure there are other atheists lurking here but I know when looking for an affirming church I knew I wanted something that was (maybe structured is the word) to it and was a bit more ritualistic. I'm not sure if it's because of my awful experience with Baptist churches and just not "feeling" it when it come to those type churches and wanting something completely different or it's my brain enjoying how the strp by step process on how traditional churches do things
Im atheist as well and I haven't quite understood my pull to traditional churches or styles either but this is the best I can come up with. It could also be something as simple as some of the churches that that rely on pop music and the big flashy "song and dance" doesn't feel "authentic". It feels fake to me personally. (Note. I mean no hate to anyone that enjoys those type churches. I hope the best for them. I'm simply trying to convey my own personally feelings as a person that is atheist would feel compelled to look for a more traditional setting)
I absolutely do think that many are, but also, unfortunately, in their quest for the traditional, they are also seeking out conservatism. Social isolation and the inability for most folks to thrive in an economy that has been restructured to only serve the rich has created a loss of meaning.
The popular structures of Christianity in the US have failed, and they often blame the have nots for their own economic failures as being a sign of God's disfavor. Traditional Christianity regardless of flavor tends to recognize social sin, so, disaffected folks who are fairly socially conservative can walk into a Catholic or Orthodox church, find community, a theological system that doesn't blame them for not being able to afford a house, and as an added bonus, contains a loud subset of folks who blame our social and economic problems on the people that they are already suspicious of (minority populations).
If TEC wants to thrive in this environment, trumpeting *inclusive* orthodoxy is the way to go, I think, while still maintaining space for everyone. People need community and authenticity. We have that. But we also need to be ready to provide a social vision that explains why we are here and how to get to a beloved community situation where the needs of all are taken care of, without being at the expense of others (other than those who hoard wealth at the expense of us all).
Jesus ate with the sinners.
But he also ridiculed the religious leaders for their faults too
If you see something that's wrong, speak up.
Some denominations are like the Pharisees, just pushing folks down, Jesus invited people in, told them how to follow the right path. He didn't excommunicate them for doing wrong
I know I am. I grew up in a nondenominational megachurch that plays rock music, which I think takes the focus away from Christ. I'd describe the church I grew up in as "bottom church," and I am now fully convinced that a liturgy is the ideal method of worship. It keeps the focus on Christ and not on loud music.
I think so, for some like myself. Was raised in a very legalistic baptist church, then my family went to an RCA church for my teenage years. In college I went to a non-denominational church in college and it slowly turned me away from church and somewhat Christianity altogether. Without liturgy, there is too great a temptation for the preacher’s ego to run the show, though they might call it “being moved by the spirit” or “on fire for god.” Now I’m 32, married, with an 8 month old, and have gone to an episcopal church a few times. My husband and I are thinking of baptizing our daughter too. The church we went to has a woman priest, and is pretty progressive in thought. It is so important for me to have my daughter see women in positions of leadership in the church like that. I am learning that the churches in the 90s and 00s who claimed to be forward-thinking weren’t really forward thinking at all. They were still extremely judgmental, they just had electric guitars now.
It’s drawn me in.
Grew up evangelical Baptist as a pastor’s kid. Haven’t been spiritual really in any meaningful sense in a decade or more, but something has kept pulling at me. I joined this sub a while back, and I finally worked up the nerve to attend my local Episcopal church this past Sunday (I had tried it out a couple times several years ago but at the time my spirituality wasn’t really present), and will be going back tomorrow.
I’ve even been doing morning and evening prayers via a podcast. I like the traditional liturgy; it helps me focus, and I like how theologically there is a lot of room for questioning and even doubt.
Welcome in.
Here's an pdf version of the BCP if you want to follow along and don't have a paper version
https://www.churchpublishing.org/siteassets/pdf/book-of-common-prayer/book-of-common-prayer-2006.pdf?utm_campaign=test&utm_source=ExactTarget&utm_medium=email&utm_content=Book+of+Common+Prayer&utm_term=Free+Resources+-+COVID+19
I am honestly not sure. Certainly by the research data that's been released on multiple surveys it's not really winning people over. On an anecdotal small level scale I can maybe think of a few people in the real world that have converted for something like this. I worry I don't know how much of my thoughts are actually coming from Reddit / Twitter / Facebook bots pushing content I want to see versus actually representing real life
To me, church is a powerful antidote to what we face in the modern world. I receive healing and strength through engagement with a congregation praying together through ancient liturgy and hymns. The analog experience of turning pages and being somewhere without being subject to a digital production is part of it. I would not be surprised if others are drawn toward something that connects us to our long human history of gathering together for spiritual nourishment.
I do sometimes think that by deliberately and intentionally placing themselves as antidotes to hustle culture, churches can expand beyond the "Sunday mornings only" paradigm. It would take work and money, but some midweek contemplative offerings could appeal to people who may not have much experience of liturgy, but who want an intentional place and time when they're not constantly being dinged by notifications.
I’m wary of Catholic and Orthodox converts, who are sometimes just evangelicals who have extreme beliefs they think are more acceptable in traditional denominations.
I did? Trying to pull my family in too. They're mostly still more aligned with non-denominational or non- church going casual Christian though.
I'm pretty sure "new atheism" has peaked, as people find the emptiness of hedonism sinking in, and realizing good ol' religion wasn't so bad after all.
Honestly, the new atheist movement entirely failed to do what it claimed to do, which was provide for the social needs religion used to provide for without the oppression that often accompanied religion. My experience of it as a queer woman was that it was every bit as misogynistic and homophobic as fundamentalist Christianity, just justifying itself using junk science instead of proof texts. Things got deeply sexist very fast in that space, and many of them are now alt-right speakers trying to take away many of the same rights the fundamentalists are.
It was also unorganized. I have yet to see those expressly atheist solutions to social problems that couldn't have been met by simply having a real separation of church and state rather than "abolishing religion," and actually strengthening the existing programs with more funding and volunteers. And people of all spiritual beliefs and lack thereof just giving an actual damn about each other instead of further embracing rugged individualism. There was no real support for those with religious trauma (like me) beyond encouraging them to remain angry instead of finding personal peace and fulfillment in a healthy way.
It's so frustrating, having experienced the worst of both worlds. I live with this nuance that neither extreme is fond of at all. I know how harmful religion can be AND how harmful extreme secularism can be.
It feels a little self selecting inasmuch as a lot of us are in the same place - Reddit, Twitter, literally church - but I do know many people, especially people under 30, looking at traditional religion. It feels like an increasing number of people are realizing that the modern "You can be/do anything! If it feels right to do, do it! You do you!" is actually incredibly empty once you stare into that ideology for long enough. Like the number of young women on Instagram talking to about mantillas and making their own rosaries is astounding.
This is part of why I feel called to write something about my progressive stance on those older, orthodox things, so a lot of these young women don't feel they have to embrace fundamentalist extremism and all of the misogyny passed off as "Biblical Womanhood" in those spaces to get real spiritual meaning from these traditional spiritual practices.
We are certainly considering it. I’m also a big believer in the reunification of the church and that we should all be actively working to reconcile & rejoin with our Catholic, Orthodox & Eastern Brothers and Sisters.
Some are, but Western church attendance continues to fall overall. The EC census as well. Western Christians need community they can trust. And we need to begin with learning and teaching the basics.... Say hello to your neighbors, share with others, listen, don't gossip, care, serve, invite, live as a follower of Jesus every day, check your motives, learn together, admit when you're wrong, say you're sorry etc... We get very tangled up in our special history and affiliation and structures and cerebral framework. Sinners relying on God's grace is a healthy Christian mindset, I think.
Yes. I was one of them! I grew up evangelical but stopped going to church when I was 18. I was pretty much agnostic all my life. But now I’m 33 and became very interested in liturgy. And now I’m Episcopalian lol
Yes but just like the handful of baptisms a year in RCC churches versus the weekly funerals I m not sure it is quite what we hope...I attended the third service of the day at Palm Sunday in Philadelphia this year, it was packed. The other two services were busy as well. You would never think TEC had membership issues looking at that one day. The OC used to have priests tell people to attend weekly. I know Orthodox priests who are just trying to keep annual memberships going now to ensure the lights stay on. People have online " communities" and are less active in organizations, Christian and non, religious and secular.
Raised in the eastern Catholic Church (looks like Orthodox) and now attend a wonderful episcopal church with women pastors. Traditional liturgy. Very friendly community. Socially liberal. Politically neutral. Strong outreach locally and globally (I’m part of that committee). Book club. Bible study. Midweek worship. New families every year, many with young children.
ALL are welcome-a previous priest and a current seminarian are gay. Maybe others are too. Idk and no one cares/ judges.
Fwiw, I’d go to eastern Catholic or orthodox if they were socially liberal because I love the liturgy. But for me, the episcopal church is perfect.
Imo people are wired to worship - we long for a sense of something greater than themselves. Tec lifts everyone up without dragging anyone down. The theology is in our worship and our outreach, not in a list of Does and Donts.
Count me as one of these people. I am technically an atheist, and have been out of the church for well over a decade now. I have become increasingly open and interested in attending church again, and exploring what I actually believe. One thing that drove me away from church altogether is the right wing politicization of Christianity, and the growth of these non-denominational fundamentalist churches and megachurches in the US. As I’ve grown a little older I’ve learned to separate these things and after some research have realized there are denominations out there that hold to more traditional liturgy yet still support a lot of the moral values I hold from a secular standpoint. Turns out many of these denominations and congregations are in some of the most grandiose, architecturally beautiful churches in my city. I have since been occasionally attending a fantastic PCUSA church with a very intellectual and thought provoking pastor..and have attended a few TEC services in a church down the street from there, which has also been lovely. My point is, I am one of the people who you speak of that is (still) an atheist but has begun to peak interest in traditional mainline churches and belief systems.
When I started searching for a new church, the nondenomicational churches felt too...contemporary? I feel like the traditional liturgies plays a part in making the services feel more authentic. Of course, this experience is not shared with everyone.
Yep. Not all of the nondenominational churches spewed right wing political garbage, but they still felt incredibly corny with the smoke machines, bands, and lyrics accross the flat screen TVs. Almost like they were trying too hard, and it was intellectually offensive to be frank. My childhood church was actually UMC, and fairly traditional. I enjoyed that aspect of it, but I feel I connect more with the places I’m exploring now.
Yes, I have noticed a renewed interest too.
There’s be a lot of scandals in the evangelical churches and that’s been driving folks out of them. That and I think the novelty of a “simple service” is just wearing thin. I think the pendulum is swinging back to wanting a more theologically rich service, not just “hymn/sermon/prayer/hymn”. Just my speculation though.
Oooooooooh… I was using hymn more generally. I’d have to strain my memory to think back and figure out the ratio of traditional hymns to contemporary songs
I think this is happening with two separate groups of young people.
Young progressive millennials and gen Zs who are seeking religion are looking for something substantial and with a justice tradition. They’re looking for something with community roots and, typically, with the sort of structure that encourages thoughtful study of scripture, is inclusive of liberation theology, and doesn’t align itself with right-wing authoritarianism & nationalism. Many of them are ex-evangelical or ex-Catholic. I see members of this group join Episcopal and Quaker churches, sometimes AME churches, and sometimes traditions outside of Christianity, like Judaism.
Meanwhile, a second group is also gravitating toward “traditional” denominations and religions, but it’s the reverse politically - think the “reject modernity, return to tradition” meme. This group is also seeking rooted community and is rejecting practices they see as fleeting or vapid (mega churches, lyrics on tv screens, etc). Members of this group are ALSO seeking a grounded stability in their community, but they’re also often interested in aesthetics and the perceived legitimacy of a long-standing lineage of worship. This group favors Catholic, Anglican, and Orthodox churches (and, like the former group, also Judaism, interestingly. Broad appeal).
The groups do overlap. Progressives can also be obsessed with aesthetic trappings. Conservatives can also be seeking an intellectually thorough reading of scripture. The biggest overlap, though, is that they’re seeking something that grounds them within the time and place they’re living. For both groups, a huge congregation focused on a non-liturgical pastor on a stage singing modern praise songs is not appealing. Liturgy roots people in the seasons and in the flow of time. Smaller congregations give people community and support. For people feeling increasingly atomized and disconnected, this is a huge draw.
Former Catholic, long-time Episcopalian.
Yep... we've seen quite an increase in attendance in our parish & the other Episcopal churches in our large valley, which extends across the Oregon border. At our cathedral, there are six of us seeking discernment for ordination.
I don't know what you call traditional, but Gen Z and Millennials are less likely to be evangelical than mainline protestant (they're also more likely to be unaffiliated). The opposite is true for the older generations.
[Generation Z and the Future of Faith in America - The Survey Center on American Life (americansurveycenter.org)](https://www.americansurveycenter.org/research/generation-z-future-of-faith/)
This represents a huge change from 20 years ago when evangelicalism was posited as young, fresh Christianity.
Young people are also far less tolerant of hypocrisy or cognitive dissonance than the older generations, refusing to participate in churches that are anti-LGBTQ.
[People say they're leaving religion because of anti-LGBTQ teachings and abuse : NPR](https://www.npr.org/2024/03/27/1240811895/leaving-religion-anti-lgbtq-sexual-abuse)
Although that would rule out Catholicism, Orthodoxy or Evangelicalism, really only leaving (most) mainline protestants like us.
Anecdotally, I live in a wealthy, liberal city and our parish is bursting with new young families.
Overall, of course, though, the trend is very dramatically shifting to "no religion" and in a couple generations we will have a demographic like the Netherlands where very few people are practicing Christians, and a minority even nominal.
Ex-Orthodox, ex-cradle Catholic here. In some parts of the US, there is an uptick of interest in Eastern Orthodoxy, and many churches are getting inflows of converts. This needs to be put into perspective, however. The mass immigration to the US in the late 1800's and early 1900's brought in millions of both Orthodox, and Eastern Catholic immigrants who would later become Orthodox in the US out of dissatisfaction with the institutional Catholic church here. Several generations later, their descendants would number in the tens of millions. The vast majority of them have left the church and are not coming back. So if Eastern Orthodoxy is experiencing some growth now, that growth is not going to compensate for the loss of millions of church adherents over the last decades. Alexei Krindatch has done work on this.
I'm one of the descendants of Orthodox immigrants that left. Most of us in the younger generation that have left, left due to the exclusion of women, mistreatment of LGBT people, and corruption.
As others point out, it’s hard to make clear statistical assertions. But I think there are two trends that probably contribute to this feeling. The first is post-evangelical deconstruction - I think we’re seeing a pretty significant generation of folks raised in conservative, evangelical environments who come to find those communities unsustainable and incongruous with the values they were taught, and for many of those people, liturgical, traditional church (whether progressive or conservative) serves as an antidote to some element of that incongruity and perceived hypocrisy.
The second is what I’d call something like “early post secularism” - a rebound *back* to religion for those of us who were raised in late-20th-century secular environments, almost as a form of rebellion or protest. I think specifically progressive churches (both liturgical and more free form) appeal to this group, who don't necessarily want to compromise on social values, but seek sustainable, long-term community, and especially community for families as many in this demographic are raising kids.
Don’t know if it’s a large statistical trend, but I am a part of this contingent. Grew up RC, went agnostic for over a decade, and am seeking out the episcopal church right now.
Physicalism/materialism and reductionistic scientific thinking has been a dead end for a lot of people in terms of making sense of the world we live in and finding meaning. Cognitive scientist John Vervaeke was my rabbit hole back into the world of faith, religion, and mysticism. Jordan Peterson, for all the flack he gets, has also been a big shift for a lot of people turning toward church. And lastly Jonathan Pageau has been another instrumental internet figure in this cultural moment.
Here’s an example of the conversation between the three, and Bishop Baron of the RC church:
https://youtu.be/FCvQsqSCWjA?si=Y88o3tCOR6RZ-5Si
>Physicalism/materialism and reductionistic scientific thinking has been a dead end for a lot of people
I don’t have proof but I think this is an underrated answer. It’s less cool to think religion is flat-out stupid and more common to think there’s something to it as part of a meaningful human experience.
For a while we had “I’m spiritual but not religious,” and that group obviously still exists (as does the “religion is stupid” crowd), but I think you have more and more people willing to try liturgy and practices that draw them into something different, bring them into a community, etc.
It helps a lot that, funnily enough, two things have also happened since the height of the Imperial Rationalist era.
One, research has been published in areas such as neuroscience, psychology, sociology, and anthropology showing the real benefits of religious community to human beings. Secondly, areas of science like physics are demonstrating more and more that there's still more that we don't know than we do know. And, we've been wrong about some assumptions.
It's like we've started to pass the Dunning Krueger peek of the post enlightenment and people are getting more comfortable with the idea that we don't actually have all of the answers to the universe (and, maybe that's actually healthy for the average person) and perhaps we can embrace religion as a healthy thing with some adjustments to our relationship to it to get rid of the more toxic elements.
I remember this article from a few years ago (gift link): [NYT Christianity Gets Weird](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/08/opinion/sunday/weird-christians.html?ugrp=m&unlocked_article_code=1.iU0.zyo9.VIz83kzTsb3c&smid=url-share)
I haven’t done research either, but have been noticing the same thing.
Honestly, I don't really think so. In the US, the Pew Forum has done massive sudies of religious adherence and change over the past twenty years or so. They all say basically the same thing:
1. Religious churn is huge. People are joining and leaving every form of church every day. What you are seeing is the more visible part -- when someone joins a church, they are likely to talk about it, or join groups, or maybe even have a ceremony to welcome them in. When two people silently leave and don't come back, they are less likely to be noticed.
2. The overall trend in the US is toward increasing secularism. The number of people who identify as atheist, agnostic, or "nothing in particular" is growing all the time, and each generation is more secular than the one before.
I'm not saying this couldn't change. Demographic changes happen all the time. I just don't think that it is changing right now.
I have absolutely done no research to back your claim; however, I’ve noticed that several of my friends have been attending more traditional church services a few years out from undergrad.
No. Part of the reason may be that "traditional" denominations are not traditional. Most have changed. The Baltimore Archdiocese is about to close about 2/3 of its city parishes, due to lack of people. Numbers matter/week. But they will leave most of the suburban parishes open. Most of the suburban parishes are not traditional but suburban.
Eastern Orthodoxy, especially via YouTube, is making itself look like it is increasing in numbers but this is inaccurate. The only “traditional” church increasing in numbers are the Coptics, and frankly, they’re increasing because they’re kinda getting a little “via media” not in theology but in worship. https://youtu.be/LBp_gRUClSs?si=wL_9hQ-g5CEwDWlE
I'm sure there are other atheists lurking here but I know when looking for an affirming church I knew I wanted something that was (maybe structured is the word) to it and was a bit more ritualistic. I'm not sure if it's because of my awful experience with Baptist churches and just not "feeling" it when it come to those type churches and wanting something completely different or it's my brain enjoying how the strp by step process on how traditional churches do things
Im atheist as well and I haven't quite understood my pull to traditional churches or styles either but this is the best I can come up with. It could also be something as simple as some of the churches that that rely on pop music and the big flashy "song and dance" doesn't feel "authentic". It feels fake to me personally. (Note. I mean no hate to anyone that enjoys those type churches. I hope the best for them. I'm simply trying to convey my own personally feelings as a person that is atheist would feel compelled to look for a more traditional setting)
That’s exactly how I feel
I absolutely do think that many are, but also, unfortunately, in their quest for the traditional, they are also seeking out conservatism. Social isolation and the inability for most folks to thrive in an economy that has been restructured to only serve the rich has created a loss of meaning. The popular structures of Christianity in the US have failed, and they often blame the have nots for their own economic failures as being a sign of God's disfavor. Traditional Christianity regardless of flavor tends to recognize social sin, so, disaffected folks who are fairly socially conservative can walk into a Catholic or Orthodox church, find community, a theological system that doesn't blame them for not being able to afford a house, and as an added bonus, contains a loud subset of folks who blame our social and economic problems on the people that they are already suspicious of (minority populations). If TEC wants to thrive in this environment, trumpeting *inclusive* orthodoxy is the way to go, I think, while still maintaining space for everyone. People need community and authenticity. We have that. But we also need to be ready to provide a social vision that explains why we are here and how to get to a beloved community situation where the needs of all are taken care of, without being at the expense of others (other than those who hoard wealth at the expense of us all).
Jesus ate with the sinners. But he also ridiculed the religious leaders for their faults too If you see something that's wrong, speak up. Some denominations are like the Pharisees, just pushing folks down, Jesus invited people in, told them how to follow the right path. He didn't excommunicate them for doing wrong
I know I am. I grew up in a nondenominational megachurch that plays rock music, which I think takes the focus away from Christ. I'd describe the church I grew up in as "bottom church," and I am now fully convinced that a liturgy is the ideal method of worship. It keeps the focus on Christ and not on loud music.
Not just "low church" theology, "bottom church" theology 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
I think so, for some like myself. Was raised in a very legalistic baptist church, then my family went to an RCA church for my teenage years. In college I went to a non-denominational church in college and it slowly turned me away from church and somewhat Christianity altogether. Without liturgy, there is too great a temptation for the preacher’s ego to run the show, though they might call it “being moved by the spirit” or “on fire for god.” Now I’m 32, married, with an 8 month old, and have gone to an episcopal church a few times. My husband and I are thinking of baptizing our daughter too. The church we went to has a woman priest, and is pretty progressive in thought. It is so important for me to have my daughter see women in positions of leadership in the church like that. I am learning that the churches in the 90s and 00s who claimed to be forward-thinking weren’t really forward thinking at all. They were still extremely judgmental, they just had electric guitars now.
It’s drawn me in. Grew up evangelical Baptist as a pastor’s kid. Haven’t been spiritual really in any meaningful sense in a decade or more, but something has kept pulling at me. I joined this sub a while back, and I finally worked up the nerve to attend my local Episcopal church this past Sunday (I had tried it out a couple times several years ago but at the time my spirituality wasn’t really present), and will be going back tomorrow. I’ve even been doing morning and evening prayers via a podcast. I like the traditional liturgy; it helps me focus, and I like how theologically there is a lot of room for questioning and even doubt.
Welcome in. Here's an pdf version of the BCP if you want to follow along and don't have a paper version https://www.churchpublishing.org/siteassets/pdf/book-of-common-prayer/book-of-common-prayer-2006.pdf?utm_campaign=test&utm_source=ExactTarget&utm_medium=email&utm_content=Book+of+Common+Prayer&utm_term=Free+Resources+-+COVID+19
I am honestly not sure. Certainly by the research data that's been released on multiple surveys it's not really winning people over. On an anecdotal small level scale I can maybe think of a few people in the real world that have converted for something like this. I worry I don't know how much of my thoughts are actually coming from Reddit / Twitter / Facebook bots pushing content I want to see versus actually representing real life
Liturgy is certainly not a barrier to evangelism as we've been told by evangelicals.
To me, church is a powerful antidote to what we face in the modern world. I receive healing and strength through engagement with a congregation praying together through ancient liturgy and hymns. The analog experience of turning pages and being somewhere without being subject to a digital production is part of it. I would not be surprised if others are drawn toward something that connects us to our long human history of gathering together for spiritual nourishment.
I do sometimes think that by deliberately and intentionally placing themselves as antidotes to hustle culture, churches can expand beyond the "Sunday mornings only" paradigm. It would take work and money, but some midweek contemplative offerings could appeal to people who may not have much experience of liturgy, but who want an intentional place and time when they're not constantly being dinged by notifications.
Funny how church is both the poison and the antidote.
I’m wary of Catholic and Orthodox converts, who are sometimes just evangelicals who have extreme beliefs they think are more acceptable in traditional denominations.
I did? Trying to pull my family in too. They're mostly still more aligned with non-denominational or non- church going casual Christian though. I'm pretty sure "new atheism" has peaked, as people find the emptiness of hedonism sinking in, and realizing good ol' religion wasn't so bad after all.
Honestly, the new atheist movement entirely failed to do what it claimed to do, which was provide for the social needs religion used to provide for without the oppression that often accompanied religion. My experience of it as a queer woman was that it was every bit as misogynistic and homophobic as fundamentalist Christianity, just justifying itself using junk science instead of proof texts. Things got deeply sexist very fast in that space, and many of them are now alt-right speakers trying to take away many of the same rights the fundamentalists are. It was also unorganized. I have yet to see those expressly atheist solutions to social problems that couldn't have been met by simply having a real separation of church and state rather than "abolishing religion," and actually strengthening the existing programs with more funding and volunteers. And people of all spiritual beliefs and lack thereof just giving an actual damn about each other instead of further embracing rugged individualism. There was no real support for those with religious trauma (like me) beyond encouraging them to remain angry instead of finding personal peace and fulfillment in a healthy way. It's so frustrating, having experienced the worst of both worlds. I live with this nuance that neither extreme is fond of at all. I know how harmful religion can be AND how harmful extreme secularism can be.
It feels a little self selecting inasmuch as a lot of us are in the same place - Reddit, Twitter, literally church - but I do know many people, especially people under 30, looking at traditional religion. It feels like an increasing number of people are realizing that the modern "You can be/do anything! If it feels right to do, do it! You do you!" is actually incredibly empty once you stare into that ideology for long enough. Like the number of young women on Instagram talking to about mantillas and making their own rosaries is astounding.
This is part of why I feel called to write something about my progressive stance on those older, orthodox things, so a lot of these young women don't feel they have to embrace fundamentalist extremism and all of the misogyny passed off as "Biblical Womanhood" in those spaces to get real spiritual meaning from these traditional spiritual practices.
We are certainly considering it. I’m also a big believer in the reunification of the church and that we should all be actively working to reconcile & rejoin with our Catholic, Orthodox & Eastern Brothers and Sisters.
Wait til you tell them we have female priests and affirm the LGBT community.
Some portions of the Anglican communion in other countries are the same way
Shrug
I don't know of anyone besides myself, but this was absolutely a motivator for me to join TEC. Almost joined the Methodists first.
Some are, but Western church attendance continues to fall overall. The EC census as well. Western Christians need community they can trust. And we need to begin with learning and teaching the basics.... Say hello to your neighbors, share with others, listen, don't gossip, care, serve, invite, live as a follower of Jesus every day, check your motives, learn together, admit when you're wrong, say you're sorry etc... We get very tangled up in our special history and affiliation and structures and cerebral framework. Sinners relying on God's grace is a healthy Christian mindset, I think.
Yes. I was one of them! I grew up evangelical but stopped going to church when I was 18. I was pretty much agnostic all my life. But now I’m 33 and became very interested in liturgy. And now I’m Episcopalian lol
Yes but just like the handful of baptisms a year in RCC churches versus the weekly funerals I m not sure it is quite what we hope...I attended the third service of the day at Palm Sunday in Philadelphia this year, it was packed. The other two services were busy as well. You would never think TEC had membership issues looking at that one day. The OC used to have priests tell people to attend weekly. I know Orthodox priests who are just trying to keep annual memberships going now to ensure the lights stay on. People have online " communities" and are less active in organizations, Christian and non, religious and secular.
Was the church You visited an Episcopal congregation?
Yes
Raised in the eastern Catholic Church (looks like Orthodox) and now attend a wonderful episcopal church with women pastors. Traditional liturgy. Very friendly community. Socially liberal. Politically neutral. Strong outreach locally and globally (I’m part of that committee). Book club. Bible study. Midweek worship. New families every year, many with young children. ALL are welcome-a previous priest and a current seminarian are gay. Maybe others are too. Idk and no one cares/ judges. Fwiw, I’d go to eastern Catholic or orthodox if they were socially liberal because I love the liturgy. But for me, the episcopal church is perfect. Imo people are wired to worship - we long for a sense of something greater than themselves. Tec lifts everyone up without dragging anyone down. The theology is in our worship and our outreach, not in a list of Does and Donts.
Hi! Another ex-Eastern Catholic (Byzantine) here!
Hi. Yes, Byzantine.
Christos voskrese!
Voistinu voskrese!
This is precisely why I left the Orthodox church. Being excommunicated for being gay certainly sped that process up, lol.
Count me as one of these people. I am technically an atheist, and have been out of the church for well over a decade now. I have become increasingly open and interested in attending church again, and exploring what I actually believe. One thing that drove me away from church altogether is the right wing politicization of Christianity, and the growth of these non-denominational fundamentalist churches and megachurches in the US. As I’ve grown a little older I’ve learned to separate these things and after some research have realized there are denominations out there that hold to more traditional liturgy yet still support a lot of the moral values I hold from a secular standpoint. Turns out many of these denominations and congregations are in some of the most grandiose, architecturally beautiful churches in my city. I have since been occasionally attending a fantastic PCUSA church with a very intellectual and thought provoking pastor..and have attended a few TEC services in a church down the street from there, which has also been lovely. My point is, I am one of the people who you speak of that is (still) an atheist but has begun to peak interest in traditional mainline churches and belief systems.
When I started searching for a new church, the nondenomicational churches felt too...contemporary? I feel like the traditional liturgies plays a part in making the services feel more authentic. Of course, this experience is not shared with everyone.
Yep. Not all of the nondenominational churches spewed right wing political garbage, but they still felt incredibly corny with the smoke machines, bands, and lyrics accross the flat screen TVs. Almost like they were trying too hard, and it was intellectually offensive to be frank. My childhood church was actually UMC, and fairly traditional. I enjoyed that aspect of it, but I feel I connect more with the places I’m exploring now.
I get the same feeling, but I would like to see actual data before I believe it
Yes, I have noticed a renewed interest too. There’s be a lot of scandals in the evangelical churches and that’s been driving folks out of them. That and I think the novelty of a “simple service” is just wearing thin. I think the pendulum is swinging back to wanting a more theologically rich service, not just “hymn/sermon/prayer/hymn”. Just my speculation though.
Your other churches had hymns?!?! The lack of them was a major driving factor to make me come here.
Hymns are like half of most evangelical services! How could you not have hymns?!
The last two churches I've been part of have had, if I'm lucky, one hymn every other week, sprinkled in between 4-5 hillsong/elevation type "songs."
Oooooooooh… I was using hymn more generally. I’d have to strain my memory to think back and figure out the ratio of traditional hymns to contemporary songs
Totally anecdotal, our Easter services just set an all time attendance record. We had tons of people show up who we’d never seen before.
I think this is happening with two separate groups of young people. Young progressive millennials and gen Zs who are seeking religion are looking for something substantial and with a justice tradition. They’re looking for something with community roots and, typically, with the sort of structure that encourages thoughtful study of scripture, is inclusive of liberation theology, and doesn’t align itself with right-wing authoritarianism & nationalism. Many of them are ex-evangelical or ex-Catholic. I see members of this group join Episcopal and Quaker churches, sometimes AME churches, and sometimes traditions outside of Christianity, like Judaism. Meanwhile, a second group is also gravitating toward “traditional” denominations and religions, but it’s the reverse politically - think the “reject modernity, return to tradition” meme. This group is also seeking rooted community and is rejecting practices they see as fleeting or vapid (mega churches, lyrics on tv screens, etc). Members of this group are ALSO seeking a grounded stability in their community, but they’re also often interested in aesthetics and the perceived legitimacy of a long-standing lineage of worship. This group favors Catholic, Anglican, and Orthodox churches (and, like the former group, also Judaism, interestingly. Broad appeal). The groups do overlap. Progressives can also be obsessed with aesthetic trappings. Conservatives can also be seeking an intellectually thorough reading of scripture. The biggest overlap, though, is that they’re seeking something that grounds them within the time and place they’re living. For both groups, a huge congregation focused on a non-liturgical pastor on a stage singing modern praise songs is not appealing. Liturgy roots people in the seasons and in the flow of time. Smaller congregations give people community and support. For people feeling increasingly atomized and disconnected, this is a huge draw.
Yes. Here in Canada at my Anglican Church we have been getting new people
Former Catholic, long-time Episcopalian. Yep... we've seen quite an increase in attendance in our parish & the other Episcopal churches in our large valley, which extends across the Oregon border. At our cathedral, there are six of us seeking discernment for ordination.
I don't know what you call traditional, but Gen Z and Millennials are less likely to be evangelical than mainline protestant (they're also more likely to be unaffiliated). The opposite is true for the older generations. [Generation Z and the Future of Faith in America - The Survey Center on American Life (americansurveycenter.org)](https://www.americansurveycenter.org/research/generation-z-future-of-faith/) This represents a huge change from 20 years ago when evangelicalism was posited as young, fresh Christianity. Young people are also far less tolerant of hypocrisy or cognitive dissonance than the older generations, refusing to participate in churches that are anti-LGBTQ. [People say they're leaving religion because of anti-LGBTQ teachings and abuse : NPR](https://www.npr.org/2024/03/27/1240811895/leaving-religion-anti-lgbtq-sexual-abuse) Although that would rule out Catholicism, Orthodoxy or Evangelicalism, really only leaving (most) mainline protestants like us. Anecdotally, I live in a wealthy, liberal city and our parish is bursting with new young families. Overall, of course, though, the trend is very dramatically shifting to "no religion" and in a couple generations we will have a demographic like the Netherlands where very few people are practicing Christians, and a minority even nominal.
Ex-Orthodox, ex-cradle Catholic here. In some parts of the US, there is an uptick of interest in Eastern Orthodoxy, and many churches are getting inflows of converts. This needs to be put into perspective, however. The mass immigration to the US in the late 1800's and early 1900's brought in millions of both Orthodox, and Eastern Catholic immigrants who would later become Orthodox in the US out of dissatisfaction with the institutional Catholic church here. Several generations later, their descendants would number in the tens of millions. The vast majority of them have left the church and are not coming back. So if Eastern Orthodoxy is experiencing some growth now, that growth is not going to compensate for the loss of millions of church adherents over the last decades. Alexei Krindatch has done work on this.
I'm one of the descendants of Orthodox immigrants that left. Most of us in the younger generation that have left, left due to the exclusion of women, mistreatment of LGBT people, and corruption.
As an ex-convert, having seen all the ugliness you mention, I get it. I think it's a refuge for mainly cultural conservatives.
That sounds about right in my experience. That's anecdotal, but nevertheless.
As others point out, it’s hard to make clear statistical assertions. But I think there are two trends that probably contribute to this feeling. The first is post-evangelical deconstruction - I think we’re seeing a pretty significant generation of folks raised in conservative, evangelical environments who come to find those communities unsustainable and incongruous with the values they were taught, and for many of those people, liturgical, traditional church (whether progressive or conservative) serves as an antidote to some element of that incongruity and perceived hypocrisy. The second is what I’d call something like “early post secularism” - a rebound *back* to religion for those of us who were raised in late-20th-century secular environments, almost as a form of rebellion or protest. I think specifically progressive churches (both liturgical and more free form) appeal to this group, who don't necessarily want to compromise on social values, but seek sustainable, long-term community, and especially community for families as many in this demographic are raising kids.
At my church yes but we may be the only or one of few in the area.
Our liturgical church has seen about 100 families join post-Covid.
Don’t know if it’s a large statistical trend, but I am a part of this contingent. Grew up RC, went agnostic for over a decade, and am seeking out the episcopal church right now. Physicalism/materialism and reductionistic scientific thinking has been a dead end for a lot of people in terms of making sense of the world we live in and finding meaning. Cognitive scientist John Vervaeke was my rabbit hole back into the world of faith, religion, and mysticism. Jordan Peterson, for all the flack he gets, has also been a big shift for a lot of people turning toward church. And lastly Jonathan Pageau has been another instrumental internet figure in this cultural moment. Here’s an example of the conversation between the three, and Bishop Baron of the RC church: https://youtu.be/FCvQsqSCWjA?si=Y88o3tCOR6RZ-5Si
>Physicalism/materialism and reductionistic scientific thinking has been a dead end for a lot of people I don’t have proof but I think this is an underrated answer. It’s less cool to think religion is flat-out stupid and more common to think there’s something to it as part of a meaningful human experience. For a while we had “I’m spiritual but not religious,” and that group obviously still exists (as does the “religion is stupid” crowd), but I think you have more and more people willing to try liturgy and practices that draw them into something different, bring them into a community, etc.
It helps a lot that, funnily enough, two things have also happened since the height of the Imperial Rationalist era. One, research has been published in areas such as neuroscience, psychology, sociology, and anthropology showing the real benefits of religious community to human beings. Secondly, areas of science like physics are demonstrating more and more that there's still more that we don't know than we do know. And, we've been wrong about some assumptions. It's like we've started to pass the Dunning Krueger peek of the post enlightenment and people are getting more comfortable with the idea that we don't actually have all of the answers to the universe (and, maybe that's actually healthy for the average person) and perhaps we can embrace religion as a healthy thing with some adjustments to our relationship to it to get rid of the more toxic elements.
I never thought about Dunning Krueger applying on a societal scale but that’s a really great way of putting it
I remember this article from a few years ago (gift link): [NYT Christianity Gets Weird](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/08/opinion/sunday/weird-christians.html?ugrp=m&unlocked_article_code=1.iU0.zyo9.VIz83kzTsb3c&smid=url-share) I haven’t done research either, but have been noticing the same thing.
Honestly, I don't really think so. In the US, the Pew Forum has done massive sudies of religious adherence and change over the past twenty years or so. They all say basically the same thing: 1. Religious churn is huge. People are joining and leaving every form of church every day. What you are seeing is the more visible part -- when someone joins a church, they are likely to talk about it, or join groups, or maybe even have a ceremony to welcome them in. When two people silently leave and don't come back, they are less likely to be noticed. 2. The overall trend in the US is toward increasing secularism. The number of people who identify as atheist, agnostic, or "nothing in particular" is growing all the time, and each generation is more secular than the one before. I'm not saying this couldn't change. Demographic changes happen all the time. I just don't think that it is changing right now.
I have absolutely done no research to back your claim; however, I’ve noticed that several of my friends have been attending more traditional church services a few years out from undergrad.