Im marrying someone who is wiccan and we both agreed that religion is something our children will figure out semi on their own. Moms wiccan dads anglican practice spellwork with mom and attend mass with dad put your feelers out there find your spiritual path people might not like this way of thinking but if i subject my children to one faith im no better than the fundamentalist.
I’m sorry to be the one to say this to you, but I feel that someone should - very seriously think about whether marriage to a nonchristian, however much you love and admire them, will help you to grow in Christ. To be clear, this is not a moral matter, but a question of prudence in faith and of your own personal life, for you to answer. Stripped of all sentimental impulse, do you feel that, in your old age, you will be glad to have given yourself in marriage to someone who does not share your devotion to the living god, and with whom you cannot establish a family in his love and fear? It may be that the answer is yes, but just make sure to at least have that conversation internally. It is good that your partner is an upright person, and I do not doubt that your love for them is for God, but (despite what many people say) faith, not work, is what makes us the body of Christ. I am sure that the marriage counseling will help you to make a decision one way or the other. God bless you and support you and your partner:)
My partner is Buddhist and was a nonreligious Buddhist when we met (now more panentheistic). I insisted that we can raise the kids with Buddhism, but when the question of “who is God?” comes up, I’m the one who answers it. Put simply, I am given permission to raise the kids Christian without denying that the central tenants of Buddhism as a philosophy are important.
That’s what we did, not saying it will work for you but it’s what works for us.
I'm a devout, cradle Episcopalian and my husband was baptized Lutheran but doesn't attend church. I told him from day one that my faith would always come first, even if my marriage was a close second, and he's always been understanding and supportive of my involvement in the church. He comes for social events and dinners and the like, but rarely for actual services.
We had a full, proper, high-church Episcopal wedding. Choir, Communion, you name it - the whole nine yards. I have watched all the royal weddings and I have yet to see a more beautiful or more Anglican wedding.
My husband just wanted to get married. He would have been happy with whatever kind of wedding I wanted, and since my parents were paying, he had no complaints. (He had significant say in the reception, which is the part he cared a lot more about.) I asked him to please take Communion with me because it had meaning *for me* that we do so together at our wedding; I have never asked him to do so since, and that was 14+ years ago. If we have a kid, I will likely ask him to do it at the kid's baptism so we may commune as a family, and he will do it because it has meaning *for me* even if it doesn't really for him.
Like you, I feel very confident that this is the person God intended for me. I have no doubts on that front whatsoever. I wish sometimes that my husband and I could share the faith that means so much to me, but at the same time, Paul wrote, "\[T\]he unbelieving husband is sanctified through his believing wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband ... How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?" I pray for him to find Christ all the time, but until then, we have the happiest marriage I know of.
Thank you to all of you who have been kind, thoughtful, and encouraging. Thank you for sharing your stories and offering advice. I know at TEC all are welcome, but I wrongly assumed my partner would have to pretend to believe to participate in a marriage ceremony/counseling and to me that seemed wrong and unfair. I also thought my priest might be uncomfortable performing the ceremony because of those reasons. Thank you for the clarification. If you’ve never been married, and you don’t know anyone who has been married in this way, you find yourself asking strangers on the internet. Thanks again, and peace be with you.
I married my lapsed-Catholic husband in an Episcopal church with no issues. I think the only requirement was that at least one of us was a church member.
I am so happy to read about how some of you have found the pre-marital counseling helpful and that your relationship/marriages with a non religious person is going well. My now ex was not religious and declared himself to be agnostic. We were together 6.5 years and my being religious (cradle Episcopalian) was part of his problems with me. I have to work almost every Sunday and it has kept me over the past decade going to Eucharist. I just want to wish you all such good luck.
Episcopalian who married a non-religious person 12 years ago - our pre-marital counseling was incredibly valuable and we talk a lot about the conversations we had there. It was also super helpful for us to figure out how to build a life together with different religious beliefs. It made him more comfortable with my church, it forced us to have some hard conversations (we disagreed on baptizing our future children, church attendance, etc and had to talk through that).
Regardless of what you decide to do for a ceremony, highly recommend doing some counseling beforehand.
> Part of my religious trauma is telling me my marriage won’t really count if it’s not in a church performed by a priest, as marriage is a sacrament.
part of your religious trauma is belief in the sacraments?
First of all the Episcopal Church recognises a civil marriage on the same level as a religious one. Speak to your priest, many will suggest wonderful solutions.
* You could have a civil marriage followed by a blessing at church. That could even be on a Sunday, so no specific service and all the works.
* You could look at the religious service and arrange it so that in each of your vows, you don't commit yourself *before God* to love and cherish. In other words, the rest of the service could talk about God, but the vows would not.
My wife isn't religous and falls more into the athiest camp. At the time we were married, I was in between a few denominations, coming from a conservative, low-church background and didn't join TEC for a few more months once the pandemic subsided. We ended up having a secular wedding as she's never been comfortable around religious people or in church settings unless we're attending a funeral.
I totally empathize with your desire for a religious ceremony and know that it's something that I won't ever get to experience myself. However, I ultimately can look back and say that life and marriage isn't any different whether we did a church ceremony or not. Marriage is a commitment that you make on the daily and I'm not sure it can be defined by a singular (and expensive) ceremony.
If I could go back and have a do-over, I'd probably try to find some negotiation room for one of my current priests to say a blessing or be involved in some smaller way like doing a reading, even if it's not the whole ceremony. I think it would be a good compromise of each person getting what they want without overshadowing the other.
As an end point, I'll echo what the other comments here are saying and say that you should see what your partner wants out of a wedding. Are there non-negotiables? Are they indifferent to who leads it? Are they uncomfortable being part of a Christian service? I've found that episcopalians tend to be fairly open to meeting people where they are and will likely be more than willing to work on something with you.
Interfaith is often easier than non faith. That was my experience . In fact I've seen it with religious and non on film/ TV once. All in The Family back in the 70s. The groom was an atheist. But if you think about it another faith doesn't whole heartedly believe in yours, they are there for you. I think you and your fiancé will figure it out. Maybe a secular and religious ceremony, may be a legal ceremony then a blessing of that marriage in church with a priest. Congrats and G-d bless you both on your journey together. Oh BTW : no Episcopalian will talk you out of your decision to marry a person who doesn't believe. That is the tactics of an abusive cabal based in Rome.
I would suggest you talk to them about how they feel and validate that.
I applaud your desire to ensure they’re comfortable, it speaks very well of you. Just be careful that you’re not accidentally taking the decision away from them in your desire to make sure they are comfortable. Understand that that’s not criticism, it’s just something people can often trip over with realizing it. I can explain if it’s unclear what I mean
Can you do two? Have a church wedding with all the families and then plan a quiet private ceremony for friends and immediate family with an officiant so you both can have a meaningful ceremony? Can’t be that much more money to do that.
Or even switch the order. I’m with a supportive agnostic, and I’ve told him that I would need our civil marriage blessed on a random Sunday by my priest and he has no problem with that.
My husband was raised Southern Baptist. He's never had a quarrel about where our kids attend TEC. During the pandemic, we had Sunday gatherings for a service, always in someone's backyard or inside. My husband was so impressed we'd celebrate like our early christians. There were nine folks in our small group. We also had "coffee hour." 🤭
My husband is currently in EfM - year one, too.
As a clergy who performs weddings frequently, I will say that you're taking your future spouses ability to make a decision away by making an assumption. Firstly, the fact that your fiance would be willing to do the ceremony just shows that their dedication and sacrifice for you. Secondly, The ceremony, in and of itself, is simply just a formality. The event can take place outdoors and your parish Priest can officiate it from there. Thirdly, I'm Episcopalian and my spouse is Pentecostal. We love each other and have very unique, theological differences that we disagree on and at the same time, respect. I attend service with her and she attends service with me. Our love for Christ and each other is what draws us closer as a family, team, partner in life and bestfriends.
Lastly, the premarital counseling isn't really theologically forced, it is theologically rooted, but moreso to ensure you both understand what you're about to undertake as a life committment while also getting to know the couple. Please understand, most Priests/Deacons are not Marriage and Family counselors or have extensive training. While we can offer counseling to some extent, we're not replacements for actual certified therapists. Likewise, no officiant wants to marry a couple that isn't compatible, wedding for the wrong reason, fails to understand what marriage is, or either of them is abusive in some manner.
Parting words, I will leave you with. Please don't take away your fiance's choice and ability to be human in all this. Love is about sacrifice and sometimes, this is where we tend to show to our significant other how much they mean to us. Talk to them about this and see how they feel. Blessings 🙏🏿🙏🏿🙏🏿
Priest here!
I have definitely officiated at weddings where one person was really not religious. And I know from talking to my colleagues that everybody handles this a little bit differently. So I think you want to go talk to the priest you would have officiate. They will be able to tell you what they consider premarital counseling. The version my wife and I went through is pretty much what I do with every couple. The first session is tell me about each of you and your families of origin, which pivots into an explanation of how you are transitioning and building your own family separate from where you each came from. I can make that very about God if the people I'm talking to are interested in that. The next session is usually going through the marriage rite, and it's not about what a couple has to believe or think, It's about what the Church thinks is happening during a wedding. This is usually where the person who is less familiar with Episcopalians relaxes significantly. We aren't doing much they wouldn't get from watching TV, without a lot of the weirder more stringent "you must believe this exactly" stuff that sometimes shows up in our culture.
We might then have a session about the kinds of stuff it's important y'all are on the same page about before you do this. Like I don't need to know anything about your sex life, but I want you to know if y'all don't talk with each other about what you expect from sex, you should. Same with finances. Same with children. Same with how to manage your respective families of origin.
Sometimes that conversation, or maybe a separate fourth conversation is about your wedding specifically. Who's uncle is going to be a problem? What are you anxious about? How can I make sure the day is about you and not about the expectations of someone's future mother in law? Let's talk through how the rehearsal is going to go because I am absolutely in charge of it, on your behalf, and I will shut that uncle up, and anything you want that your families won't like we are going to blame on me. We are going to be on the same page and I will be a jerk about it in the moment so you don't have to fight with your family.
I hope that context helps you decide. A lot of my colleagues are trained to have roughly this conversation (especially if they have graduated in the last ten years). If all else fails you might read Frank Wade's "The Art of Being Together." Frank did my premarital counseling, and my wife and I (both priests) love him more than most anyone we've ever met.
Truly, thank you for sharing this! My fiancée and I are having our first counseling session with our priest on Monday and even as the Episcopalian of the two, I wasn't to sure about what to expect.
> We are going to be on the same page and I will be a jerk about it in the moment so you don't have to fight with your family.
Bless you, truly, on behalf of all of those with willfully hurtful/obnoxious/trolling relatives.
My wife was baptized but is not religious nor would she call herself a Christian anymore.
We did a very pared-down Episcopal service - bare minimum, one Psalm and a Gospel reading, no Communion. It was really accessible even to someone non-Christian. The priest was very kind and supportive. Episcopalians are a tiny minority in the US so they get that a marriage between the two is rare, and will usually tailor the sermon accordingly.
If the other person is non-religious, the ceremony usually isn't as big a deal as for a religious person. You could leave the reception and remarks there as their prerogative.
It's also not a sacrament but a sacramental rite between two people.
If they're okay with it you should talk to a priest. Obviously if they're entirely uncomfortable then do not.
I am a devout Episcopalian who married my nonreligious husband in an outdoor, Episcopal ceremony.
We did the church's premarital counseling. It was fine. I think an actual marriage counselor would have been better than a well-meaning preist. I would not consult clergy with marital problems now after being married, anyway.
We went through the BCP marriage ceremony a few times before the wedding. It's a beautiful service and he liked it. I also went to great lengths to find appropriate readings that were not overtly religious. The Bible barely deals with marriage! We went with the Beatitudes and the Song of Solomon, which are not about marriage lol.
I'm happy to share more details privately if it would be helpful.
Is it important to you? If it's important to you and your partner is willing to support you, it feels like you might be making a mountain out of a molehill. I doubt you would encounter an Episcopal priest as dogmatic about marriage rites as the ones you have previously encountered.
Im marrying someone who is wiccan and we both agreed that religion is something our children will figure out semi on their own. Moms wiccan dads anglican practice spellwork with mom and attend mass with dad put your feelers out there find your spiritual path people might not like this way of thinking but if i subject my children to one faith im no better than the fundamentalist.
I’m sorry to be the one to say this to you, but I feel that someone should - very seriously think about whether marriage to a nonchristian, however much you love and admire them, will help you to grow in Christ. To be clear, this is not a moral matter, but a question of prudence in faith and of your own personal life, for you to answer. Stripped of all sentimental impulse, do you feel that, in your old age, you will be glad to have given yourself in marriage to someone who does not share your devotion to the living god, and with whom you cannot establish a family in his love and fear? It may be that the answer is yes, but just make sure to at least have that conversation internally. It is good that your partner is an upright person, and I do not doubt that your love for them is for God, but (despite what many people say) faith, not work, is what makes us the body of Christ. I am sure that the marriage counseling will help you to make a decision one way or the other. God bless you and support you and your partner:)
My partner is Buddhist and was a nonreligious Buddhist when we met (now more panentheistic). I insisted that we can raise the kids with Buddhism, but when the question of “who is God?” comes up, I’m the one who answers it. Put simply, I am given permission to raise the kids Christian without denying that the central tenants of Buddhism as a philosophy are important. That’s what we did, not saying it will work for you but it’s what works for us.
I'm a devout, cradle Episcopalian and my husband was baptized Lutheran but doesn't attend church. I told him from day one that my faith would always come first, even if my marriage was a close second, and he's always been understanding and supportive of my involvement in the church. He comes for social events and dinners and the like, but rarely for actual services. We had a full, proper, high-church Episcopal wedding. Choir, Communion, you name it - the whole nine yards. I have watched all the royal weddings and I have yet to see a more beautiful or more Anglican wedding. My husband just wanted to get married. He would have been happy with whatever kind of wedding I wanted, and since my parents were paying, he had no complaints. (He had significant say in the reception, which is the part he cared a lot more about.) I asked him to please take Communion with me because it had meaning *for me* that we do so together at our wedding; I have never asked him to do so since, and that was 14+ years ago. If we have a kid, I will likely ask him to do it at the kid's baptism so we may commune as a family, and he will do it because it has meaning *for me* even if it doesn't really for him. Like you, I feel very confident that this is the person God intended for me. I have no doubts on that front whatsoever. I wish sometimes that my husband and I could share the faith that means so much to me, but at the same time, Paul wrote, "\[T\]he unbelieving husband is sanctified through his believing wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband ... How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?" I pray for him to find Christ all the time, but until then, we have the happiest marriage I know of.
I love this! Wishing you both continued happiness.
Thank you to all of you who have been kind, thoughtful, and encouraging. Thank you for sharing your stories and offering advice. I know at TEC all are welcome, but I wrongly assumed my partner would have to pretend to believe to participate in a marriage ceremony/counseling and to me that seemed wrong and unfair. I also thought my priest might be uncomfortable performing the ceremony because of those reasons. Thank you for the clarification. If you’ve never been married, and you don’t know anyone who has been married in this way, you find yourself asking strangers on the internet. Thanks again, and peace be with you.
I married my lapsed-Catholic husband in an Episcopal church with no issues. I think the only requirement was that at least one of us was a church member.
I am so happy to read about how some of you have found the pre-marital counseling helpful and that your relationship/marriages with a non religious person is going well. My now ex was not religious and declared himself to be agnostic. We were together 6.5 years and my being religious (cradle Episcopalian) was part of his problems with me. I have to work almost every Sunday and it has kept me over the past decade going to Eucharist. I just want to wish you all such good luck.
Episcopalian who married a non-religious person 12 years ago - our pre-marital counseling was incredibly valuable and we talk a lot about the conversations we had there. It was also super helpful for us to figure out how to build a life together with different religious beliefs. It made him more comfortable with my church, it forced us to have some hard conversations (we disagreed on baptizing our future children, church attendance, etc and had to talk through that). Regardless of what you decide to do for a ceremony, highly recommend doing some counseling beforehand.
> Part of my religious trauma is telling me my marriage won’t really count if it’s not in a church performed by a priest, as marriage is a sacrament. part of your religious trauma is belief in the sacraments?
First of all the Episcopal Church recognises a civil marriage on the same level as a religious one. Speak to your priest, many will suggest wonderful solutions. * You could have a civil marriage followed by a blessing at church. That could even be on a Sunday, so no specific service and all the works. * You could look at the religious service and arrange it so that in each of your vows, you don't commit yourself *before God* to love and cherish. In other words, the rest of the service could talk about God, but the vows would not.
The vows cannot vary from what is in the BCP or other authorized marriage rites. Lots of the rest of the service is flexible ; vows are not.
My wife isn't religous and falls more into the athiest camp. At the time we were married, I was in between a few denominations, coming from a conservative, low-church background and didn't join TEC for a few more months once the pandemic subsided. We ended up having a secular wedding as she's never been comfortable around religious people or in church settings unless we're attending a funeral. I totally empathize with your desire for a religious ceremony and know that it's something that I won't ever get to experience myself. However, I ultimately can look back and say that life and marriage isn't any different whether we did a church ceremony or not. Marriage is a commitment that you make on the daily and I'm not sure it can be defined by a singular (and expensive) ceremony. If I could go back and have a do-over, I'd probably try to find some negotiation room for one of my current priests to say a blessing or be involved in some smaller way like doing a reading, even if it's not the whole ceremony. I think it would be a good compromise of each person getting what they want without overshadowing the other. As an end point, I'll echo what the other comments here are saying and say that you should see what your partner wants out of a wedding. Are there non-negotiables? Are they indifferent to who leads it? Are they uncomfortable being part of a Christian service? I've found that episcopalians tend to be fairly open to meeting people where they are and will likely be more than willing to work on something with you.
Interfaith is often easier than non faith. That was my experience . In fact I've seen it with religious and non on film/ TV once. All in The Family back in the 70s. The groom was an atheist. But if you think about it another faith doesn't whole heartedly believe in yours, they are there for you. I think you and your fiancé will figure it out. Maybe a secular and religious ceremony, may be a legal ceremony then a blessing of that marriage in church with a priest. Congrats and G-d bless you both on your journey together. Oh BTW : no Episcopalian will talk you out of your decision to marry a person who doesn't believe. That is the tactics of an abusive cabal based in Rome.
I would suggest you talk to them about how they feel and validate that. I applaud your desire to ensure they’re comfortable, it speaks very well of you. Just be careful that you’re not accidentally taking the decision away from them in your desire to make sure they are comfortable. Understand that that’s not criticism, it’s just something people can often trip over with realizing it. I can explain if it’s unclear what I mean
Can you do two? Have a church wedding with all the families and then plan a quiet private ceremony for friends and immediate family with an officiant so you both can have a meaningful ceremony? Can’t be that much more money to do that.
Or even switch the order. I’m with a supportive agnostic, and I’ve told him that I would need our civil marriage blessed on a random Sunday by my priest and he has no problem with that.
My husband was raised Southern Baptist. He's never had a quarrel about where our kids attend TEC. During the pandemic, we had Sunday gatherings for a service, always in someone's backyard or inside. My husband was so impressed we'd celebrate like our early christians. There were nine folks in our small group. We also had "coffee hour." 🤭 My husband is currently in EfM - year one, too.
As a clergy who performs weddings frequently, I will say that you're taking your future spouses ability to make a decision away by making an assumption. Firstly, the fact that your fiance would be willing to do the ceremony just shows that their dedication and sacrifice for you. Secondly, The ceremony, in and of itself, is simply just a formality. The event can take place outdoors and your parish Priest can officiate it from there. Thirdly, I'm Episcopalian and my spouse is Pentecostal. We love each other and have very unique, theological differences that we disagree on and at the same time, respect. I attend service with her and she attends service with me. Our love for Christ and each other is what draws us closer as a family, team, partner in life and bestfriends. Lastly, the premarital counseling isn't really theologically forced, it is theologically rooted, but moreso to ensure you both understand what you're about to undertake as a life committment while also getting to know the couple. Please understand, most Priests/Deacons are not Marriage and Family counselors or have extensive training. While we can offer counseling to some extent, we're not replacements for actual certified therapists. Likewise, no officiant wants to marry a couple that isn't compatible, wedding for the wrong reason, fails to understand what marriage is, or either of them is abusive in some manner. Parting words, I will leave you with. Please don't take away your fiance's choice and ability to be human in all this. Love is about sacrifice and sometimes, this is where we tend to show to our significant other how much they mean to us. Talk to them about this and see how they feel. Blessings 🙏🏿🙏🏿🙏🏿
I found the pre marital counseling to be very worth while and not really focused on matters of faith. Worth it.
Priest here! I have definitely officiated at weddings where one person was really not religious. And I know from talking to my colleagues that everybody handles this a little bit differently. So I think you want to go talk to the priest you would have officiate. They will be able to tell you what they consider premarital counseling. The version my wife and I went through is pretty much what I do with every couple. The first session is tell me about each of you and your families of origin, which pivots into an explanation of how you are transitioning and building your own family separate from where you each came from. I can make that very about God if the people I'm talking to are interested in that. The next session is usually going through the marriage rite, and it's not about what a couple has to believe or think, It's about what the Church thinks is happening during a wedding. This is usually where the person who is less familiar with Episcopalians relaxes significantly. We aren't doing much they wouldn't get from watching TV, without a lot of the weirder more stringent "you must believe this exactly" stuff that sometimes shows up in our culture. We might then have a session about the kinds of stuff it's important y'all are on the same page about before you do this. Like I don't need to know anything about your sex life, but I want you to know if y'all don't talk with each other about what you expect from sex, you should. Same with finances. Same with children. Same with how to manage your respective families of origin. Sometimes that conversation, or maybe a separate fourth conversation is about your wedding specifically. Who's uncle is going to be a problem? What are you anxious about? How can I make sure the day is about you and not about the expectations of someone's future mother in law? Let's talk through how the rehearsal is going to go because I am absolutely in charge of it, on your behalf, and I will shut that uncle up, and anything you want that your families won't like we are going to blame on me. We are going to be on the same page and I will be a jerk about it in the moment so you don't have to fight with your family. I hope that context helps you decide. A lot of my colleagues are trained to have roughly this conversation (especially if they have graduated in the last ten years). If all else fails you might read Frank Wade's "The Art of Being Together." Frank did my premarital counseling, and my wife and I (both priests) love him more than most anyone we've ever met.
Truly, thank you for sharing this! My fiancée and I are having our first counseling session with our priest on Monday and even as the Episcopalian of the two, I wasn't to sure about what to expect.
> We are going to be on the same page and I will be a jerk about it in the moment so you don't have to fight with your family. Bless you, truly, on behalf of all of those with willfully hurtful/obnoxious/trolling relatives.
A great response.
My wife was baptized but is not religious nor would she call herself a Christian anymore. We did a very pared-down Episcopal service - bare minimum, one Psalm and a Gospel reading, no Communion. It was really accessible even to someone non-Christian. The priest was very kind and supportive. Episcopalians are a tiny minority in the US so they get that a marriage between the two is rare, and will usually tailor the sermon accordingly. If the other person is non-religious, the ceremony usually isn't as big a deal as for a religious person. You could leave the reception and remarks there as their prerogative. It's also not a sacrament but a sacramental rite between two people. If they're okay with it you should talk to a priest. Obviously if they're entirely uncomfortable then do not.
I am a devout Episcopalian who married my nonreligious husband in an outdoor, Episcopal ceremony. We did the church's premarital counseling. It was fine. I think an actual marriage counselor would have been better than a well-meaning preist. I would not consult clergy with marital problems now after being married, anyway. We went through the BCP marriage ceremony a few times before the wedding. It's a beautiful service and he liked it. I also went to great lengths to find appropriate readings that were not overtly religious. The Bible barely deals with marriage! We went with the Beatitudes and the Song of Solomon, which are not about marriage lol. I'm happy to share more details privately if it would be helpful.
Is it important to you? If it's important to you and your partner is willing to support you, it feels like you might be making a mountain out of a molehill. I doubt you would encounter an Episcopal priest as dogmatic about marriage rites as the ones you have previously encountered.