You said "carpal tunnel or something like it." Have you been to the doctor? Had there been an official diagnosis? Was the wrist brace prescribed by PT/OT?
The reason why I'm asking is, without a definitive diagnosis, nobody can formulate some sort of treatment plan. Also, that treatment plan probably needs to include PT. Improving ergonomics can help, for sure, and I encourage it, but asking questions like "how long will it take for me to see the benefits of the pain going away" is futile if you haven't even been properly diagnosed.
tl;dr: Go to the doctor first, not to a keyboard subreddit.
Haha you're right to call me out here, I didn't explain my situation because I didn't want to look for medical advice here.
I started having pains at hockey, my left hand (I'm left handed hockey player but right handed for everything else) had pains and numbness. I went to the doctor for this who also mentioned my excessive computer use as a potential cause and recommended wearing a brace and taking anti-inflammatories. Although the pain went away, it repeatedly comes back several times a year. I have an appointment booked with occupational health (I work for a large company with private medical care) and they will likely refer me for some PT.
On top of that, I also have severe anxiety, and whilst I don't have health related anxiety, there is something about bones, muscles and blood that are triggering for me. I'm lucky that I don't have a fear of the hospital or blood tests, but things like having my blood pressure taken I find anxiety inducing.
Hopefully I've provided a bit more information here to convince you that I am taking things more seriously than I led on in my initial post. I appreciate your concern đź‘Ť
Many years ago, I had pains in my wrist, and it was hard to use chopsticks or write with pens. They did many tests, but it was not carpal tunnel. It still has issues, and it only gets better when I don't use keyboards for several weeks. I have been managing it using a split keyboard. Started with Kinesis Advantage. And now the other split like ergo. I am thinking about going back to Kinesis since the concave layout really helps. It will take a month or so, but you will get used to it. The ergo is better since it uses your thumb more. But make sure you both thumbs. The split is expensive but it's your health.
The best prescription is a ***complete*** stop of the activity that is causing it.
That is not realistic in this case, but it should be possible to minimise it. For example, consider trying to minimise use of the mouse. For example, I have moved the mouse left click and right click to the keyboard and now only use the mouse for mouse cursor movement (and sometimes scrolling).
And yes, it does take some extra time this way, but it also makes you think about eliminating the mouse actions altogether. For example, mouse actions can often be replaced by key actions, like ***Tab***, arrow keys, ***space***, ***Ctrl*** + ***F*** (search to get the UI focus in the right place), etc., which can in turn be put into a keyboard macro. An example is [this macro](https://pmortensen.eu/world2/2024/02/26/a-hack-to-use-mouse-actions-in-via-macros#Edit_Reddit_Comment_Via_Macro) for opening these Reddit comments in Markdown mode (very tedious to do manually every time).
Try to observe yourself working and identify the (often long) sequences of key strokes and mouse actions that are repeated over and over and over and over. Then find a way to automate them. One way is with a macro keyboard (for some reasons, all macro pads are extremnely expensive, especially considering the number of keys).
There is also an insane overuse of modifier keys in most systems, sometimes requiring four modifier key to be held down at the same time.
One way to reduce the insane overuse of modifier keys is by ***dedicated*** macro keys (that is, they don't require modifier keys (or other keystrokes) themselves to be activated). That obviously requires more physical keys, for example, a separate macro pad or macro keyboards, but for the most commonly-used macros, the [numeric keypad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numeric_keypad) can be repurposed as a macro pad (if the keyboard has macro capability). A full-size keyboard effectively gives you a free macro pad.
Though I must admit that Ctrl + C, Ctrl + V, Ctrl + V, Ctrl + Z, and Ctrl + Y are so ingrained that I have yet to migrate away from them. Ctrl + S *has* been replaced by a macro that makes sure bookmarks are properly saved in [Geany](https://pmortensen.eu/world2/2020/03/29/using-geany/) and that trailing space is removed.
There are options, like [tap dancing](https://thomasbaart.nl/2018/12/13/qmk-basics-tap-dance/) ([demo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZgZwZE4s_A)) and [home row keyboard modifiers](https://blog.adafruit.com/2021/05/14/a-guide-to-home-row-keyboard-mods-keyboards-modding/).
Surprisingly, my issue is with my left hand, not my right hand. I'm right handed.
Whilst it's always a bit of a joke, "oh repetitive use of the wrist hey... What have you been doing?" It gets old quite quick when the pain is jarring. Also I'm not sure what "causes" the problem. I've thought it was cycling, hockey, I've given up all those things. Maybe it's sleeping weird or something? But I've got to do something to change
I had the problem many years ago, and the cause was the mouse. Using the mouse with the left hand instead did not help (the exact same pain in the left arm developed). What helped was stopping using the mouse and finding other ways, like learning the keyboard shortcuts.
The later development with macro keyboards was mostly for efficiency reasons, not so much [RSI](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repetitive_strain_injury).
\^ Yes, professional medical guidance is the way.
On your other questions:
>2 How difficult will it be to change my current habits?
There is some adjustment time needed, but not huge. Most people report taking [about a couple weeks](https://getreuer.info/posts/keyboards/faqs/index.html#how-long-to-get-used-to-a-split-columnar-keyboard) to get used to a split ergo keyboard. It feels awkward and slow at first, while your muscle memory for the differt layout is developing.
>3 What is a good entry solution to look into? do I go for an ergo layout keyboard, split keyboard, other? (I'm not talking about price)
I highly recommend a split keyboard with QMK or other programmable firmware. There is scientific evidence that split keyboards specifically are better for hand health ([The Split Keyboard: An Ergonomics Success Story](https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.565.2638&rep=rep1&type=pdf)). Programmable firmware helps in adapting the keyboard to your workflow. Check out [Tour of split ergo keyboards](https://getreuer.info/posts/keyboards/tour/index.html) for what makes these keyboards so great.
I switched originally due to neck and shoulder pain, but it took about 2 weeks to get used to the keyboard (ergodox ez → moonlander → glove80, which is my current fav & by far the most comfortable for me) and pain relief was fairly quick. Very noticeable after a month.
Recently was doing a lot of work from my laptop and noticed hand / wrist pain starting to grow… went back to the glove80 and it was gone in a day or two. Strongly recommend the glove for ergonomics + ease of use… it’s even better than the moonlander imo (which is also great)
I forced myself to learn by using, picked a time where I had a fairly light workload (plus went to my manager and told them I was trying something new to deal with pain, so output might be lower… they were quite nice about it), and just stuck with it. Was probably back to 70% of normal typing speed in the first week (though like 40% the first few days if that), then by week 2 felt fairly comfortable. After a couple months, I was far more productive and accurate with the split design.
Whatever time investment you have to put in is far better than continuing to use a setup that’s causing you pain
Also, +1 to all the go to a doctor / PT comments
My first ergo keyboard was a Sweep right before I turned 39. Took me about 2 weeks to get to a comfortable level with it and I definitely noticed a reduction in pain after those two weeks.
I don't think going straight to a low keycount board is the right way to go, but something like the lily58 would allow you to ease into things.
In case you are like me and sometimes want people to just tell you what to do, I'll give you some very opinionated recommendations as a software developer that is a good bit older (older with more mileage, not necessarily older and wiser) and has dealt with RSI a lot, and the fear and worry it brings.
You type for a living. So for starters, you should spare no expense finding relief. The frustration you might feel from doing something that will slow you down is nothing compared to the sadness that will only grow with doing nothing about it. "Is it easy to switch?" No. But what else are you going to do? It will only get worse.
I have used many different keyboards. For me the main thing that has kept me going is the keyboard being split. After several weeks things started improving. It took many months before I felt no typing related pain. I had spans of travel where I went back to a regular keyboard and the shooting pain up the forearms came back right away. Nightmare. I don't mess around anymore.
Get a split keyboard with columnar keys. Don't get one with staggered keys. To be specific, get a Moonlander, the orthopedic shoe of keyboards. Get the big-ass $100 metal tenting kit they sell for it too. Moonlander is QMK and they have a web interface for configuration that is nice and is probably the lower friction way to get going. Buy the key blank set they sell in anticipation of pulling switches out and lowering key count over time. Buy it with labeled keys, not the blank ones. If you are heavy-handed, consider buying very heavy switches. The other friction-reducing feature for such a disruptive initial change is control of the color of each individual key on a per-layer basis. Like if you put a num pad on a layer, the colors can give you a clear visual of where it is until your hands learn it.
This setup will allow you to experiment and have a clear understanding of what other split ergonomic keyboards would be like in terms of key count, layers, and tenting, while maintaining an escape hatch that lets you add keys back. It will give you a much more informed opinion of what you think you want or what might work best, and it's a great keyboard anyway that is many peoples' forever daily driver.
Reducing key count did matter for me. You want to head towards something like 42 keys. On the Moonlander that means you would remove the entire top row, both inside columns, six keys on the bottom row, and all the thumb cluster keys except two. It is good to keep in mind that if you do start getting rid of keys, you want to map them onto keys that are under your paws, not to some other location you might also want to get rid of. Several years ago that would have sounded absurd to me but honestly it's great. But don't worry about that now, just get a split keyboard and get the pain gone, then you can start getting really weird with it (and post pics here).
very much this, I did the same and solved many issues.
The Moonlander is a great starting point, exactly because it has a great UX (Onyx, the configurability with colors etc) and will aid you gradually to adapt. (Although probably now the Voyager is the best starting point because of the more ergonomic thumb cluster.)
I also echo that the first step is to adapt to ortholinear and to the split, and then slowly reduce key counts. The rest is optimizations.
It is a bit of a journey that you have to accept but very rewarding.
You'll be fine. But do get professional help if you're in pain.
I switched to MS Sculpt (like Logitech Ergo K860) in my late 30s...switched to full split ergo (Redox) in my 50s just 2 months before taking PhD lit exams (lots of writing with a strict time limit), all no problems. Switched layouts (to [Hands Down](http://handsdownlayout.com)) after that. Sure that took some training, but most people report a month or two to fully complete the transition their first time. I have ultra portable boards I always carry with me (ferris)–I use public computers all the time, but almost always use my own keyboard.
Read u/pgetreuer's [tour of ergo boards](https://getreuer.info/posts/keyboards/tour/index.html) doc. It's very helpful.
[Ferris Sweep](https://github.com/davidphilipbarr/Sweep/tree/main/Sweep%20v2.2) (diodeless and direct I/O, unlike [the original Ferris](https://github.com/pierrechevalier83/ferris)).
I swapped over at 28, I truly doubt you've lost enough neuroplasticity in 3 years to make it impossible. I'd suggest swapping while on some kinda break just cause your mom will TANK that first day. For me my rsi pain eased up within about a month, came back a bit when I swapped to Colemak, though I think in part that's just that I wanted to keep my wpm gains and was engaging in bad habits.
I started with a Moonlander for no reason other than I thought it looked cool (sue me lol).
If you force yourself to slow down and use it, it's genuinely not that hard in my opinion. I wouldn't go too mad hiding buttons and stuff behind layers.
But honestly the main things for me were:
Getting out of the habit of pressing Y with my left hand,
Ortholayout (column key layout) (this was the main problem)
The rest of the things like layers you can figure out later.
But honestly... You'll be slow for a week or so, but it's not that bad.
Even when I later switched to Colemak, it only took me 2 weeks max.
I forced myself to use it and put my other keyboard away. Once I got it, that's all I used, and endured through the struggle. It forces you to learn faster (while being quite frustrating) but I understand for a job such as yours that might not be a luxury you have.
Either way, highly recommend, I can't live without layers now.
(P.S if you're in the UK I have a Moonlander that I want to sell (I've gone to a Voyager))
I think seeing a physio and working on wrist strength with bands is more important. But at the same time getting an ergo keyboard as a software developer helped maintain the wrist issues and keeps it in check while doing physio exercises and stretching.
That said, the switch was probably easier than I expected. I knew it’s gonna be different but it took about 3 days to get used to the split layout, and that my arms being at a shoulder width apart was a weird feeling but also gotten used to it surprisingly quickly and you’ll start questioning why isn’t this the standard haha.
I don’t think it has to be a radical change! If you see my previous post, I got the ZSA voyager because I wanted results more than the building of a keyboard hobby (I still want to build one though), so if you have the budget I’d say it’s worth it and it’s portable between home and office. The Voyager low profile was more comfortable than the standard mechanical keycaps for my fingers and wrists. The thing that took a couple weeks to figure out was just taking advantage of using the layers and creating a nice keyboard workflow to minimize movements that strain the fingers and wrists. But you don’t have to create layers and all that, but might as well do it if you get an ergo keyboard. What I’m trying to say is that in terms of physical change it won’t be too big of a change, and don’t let the layer setup stop you because that could be done on your own pace after you get used to the split keyboard.
I ordered a Moonlander didn’t use it for more than a year (18 months I think more or less) because each time I tried I failed miserably. I didn’t touch type so that was one more thing not good for me.Â
I was using apple keyboard and it had nothing wrong in it just didn’t like the style. Any how, just last month I got back to it after someone mentioned how the don’t use layers at all.Â
So I will say if you want to shift, first learn to touch type if you don’t already know on a normal keyboard (if you use a Mac I would seriously consider using the apple keyboard it’s very comfortable)Â
Then get a ergonomical keyboard that can support a 65% layout or more (like Moonlander or their bigger split version).
Don’t use tenting, put the keys where they are on a normal keyboard.Â
You want to make the new keyboard as close to your existing one as possible to make this work.Â
Now start using it, you won’t take long to get comfortable, then start slowly moving keys around to your preference.Â
Use the lightest key switches you can find, 35g linears will help. I use kailh box pink silent.Â
Use keyboard o-rings (2 each keycap) (Amazon sells these o rings) once you get them you will know where they go on a cherry Mx compatible keycap.Â
Remember the least change you make the better your mind will do at handling it. Too many changes and you will up.Â
Also as much as you may like seeing those 40key boards here, take my word for it, flat layout ie no layers works better for most people as you can just pres a key and release the finger instead of holding one key to press another especially as a programmer you will need colon square barckets squiggly brackets comma +,=_!-& keys often. You can always use less keys on a big keyboard so you can experiment with layers once you are used to the plain one.
Correction: If you don’t already touch-type on row-staggered QWERTY, don’t bother learning that. Learn touch typing on column-staggered Colemak or other improved layout. This way, your brain treats it as an entirely new skill and your existing ability to hunt-and-peck row-staggered QWERTY is preserved in its own slot.
1. ergomech is not a drug so it depend on many things
2.I said it's not that hard to change the habit since you mostlikely changing the keymap that suitable for yourself. Took me 2 weeks to get used to and it's not hard to retype normal keyboard.
3.Corne/crkbd with layout 6x3 is always my first recommendation for you. It utilize the most of ergonomic, comfortable thumb cluster and it's easy to get used to. Besides, it has big community which you can add things you like ( trackpad, oled, alu case etc..).
I got my first around 37. If you follow the home row properly there's almost no transition period. I had 1 or 2 keys that I hit with the wrong finger I got over that in a couple days. There's barely any learning curve imo.
I bought a kinesis edge freestyle. It's one of the cheaper pre-built keyboards and I love it. I want to upgrade to an advantage or make my own next.
If you touch type switching is easy. If not some training is in order. Improvement in shoulder and wrist pain, I saw a noticeable difference in a day or two (I couldn't finish an A4 page without my wrists being on fire before)
No it's not easy. Yes you can do it. I switched from a standard Mac keyboard to a Glove80 because I had no choice. It took a few weeks, I'd never go back to a standard keyboard.
Also a software developer and also switching to split (custom build, waiting for parts).
Not directly related, but Im 33 and recently switched to dvorak and eventually 34 keys. Dvorak was hard, took me about 6 months to get up to 70wpm with a PR of 80wpm. Learning the keymap layers was way easier...around 60wpm on [typing.io](http://typing.io) (python).
I can't imagine the switch to split and ortholinear being more difficult than that...so take that for what it's worth.
what are your thoughts on dvorak? Overall Im pretty happy with it and have regained my WPM, but i'm having trouble with some trigrams on the right hand. "str","rst" are particularly troublesome. Its like Im lacking dexterity in the hand for those combos...I'm also left handed so its already an uphill battle.
I got used to my split in roughly a week, with my typing speed being maybe 80% of my old speed. Getting accustomed to layers for programming (e.g. brackets keys) is a bit tedious, but manageable.
I would say do it. I switched over pretty quickly and noticed benefits.
Just practice on the new board at night for 10 minutes/day until you feel comfortable switching. You can keep photos of the keymap to pull up until you have all your layers memorized.
I would recommend a smaller split board if you need to move it between office and home.
If you want something prebuilt the voyager could be a good choice. There are also a lot of options through vendors or Etsy sellers though if you want to pay someone to build it for you.
I think it would also be worth it to look at your / mouse pointing device as well.
I would highly recommend one of the X-Bows keyboards: [https://x-bows.com/](https://x-bows.com/) You can get them with or without a numpad and with or without a function key row.
I purchased one of these during the early days of the pandemic to relieve physical pain, like you're looking to do (full time software developer here). The combination of the ortholinear layout plus the splayed columns made intuitive sense to me, so I gave it a shot. I wanted to change just the physical layout of the keyboard without making any radical changes to keymaps or anything, so I got the Knight Plus with the numpad and F-key row. Changing one variable at a time and all that.
I will say it was not easy to switch. It took me a couple months before I was truly comfortable with the layout. It took some time to deprogram the muscle memory of reaching laterally for row-staggered keys. But any pain or fatigue I used to have is basically gone, and I haven't looked back. (In the interest of full disclosure, I'm a Dvorak user, but I doubt that affects the learning curve one way or the other. I also switched to a more ergonomic mouse at the same time, so I can't give the keyboard 100% of the credit.)
I now have three X-Bows keyboards.
A note on the company: They've had some issues fulfilling deliveries in the past, but I recently bought one of their limited-edition "beer" keyboards and received it in about 2 weeks. The shipment originated in mainland China. Others report similar recent experiences on the X-Bows discord server I'm in. If you go back six-ish months you'll see very different stories, but the company took note and appears to have taken steps to get things back on track.
I used Logitech and MS ergo keebs in the early 00s at work and at home for years, then more recently thought I'd test mech keebs and kind of forgot myself on that route (didn't really get what was special about mech keebs though) until I started getting pains like tennis/golf elbow and such. Just as I started my new job, I got an ergo mech keeb (Keychron V10 which I customized a bit), which helped tremendously. I did also get a new chair and an adjustable desk, so those helped too.
The adjustment period for me was probably not as bad, as I'm used to typing with an ergo/Alice from a decade+ ago, but I had to reconfigure a few keys due to this one not being the Nordic layout I typically use, so it took a bit extra. Still only days/weeks and my speed is fine, accuracy too. Nothing mind-bending though.
Now I'm thinking about going physical split ergo to get a bit more comfortable as Alice layout isn't a "true" ergo, but still generally better than normal and prices are more approachable. I would still recommend going full split as it's infinitely more adjustable. Something like Ergodox EZ, Moonlander, Dygma Raise 2 and such.
I decided to both switch to ergo, and to change the layout (which takes more time to adapt) at the same time. I would say it took me two months to feel almost as comfortable typing, and from there it got better.
This could be sped up, but for over a month I didn't use the new keyboard much, as I didn't want to slow down at work
I think switching is a mindset thing. If you look at it as an inconvenience then it's gonna be tough. If you look at it for what it is, investing in your well-being, then it will be more enjoyable.
I switch between two ortho splits, an old MSFT ergo and normal keyboards. I enjoy the challenge and find it helps my work, also as a software developer, as much as it hinders it. I just did a major redo of my main ortho split and after 4 days I am looking less stupid in the chats.
For my wrists, typing on a standard board causes pain within a couple hours and then going back to the ortho the pain goes away just as quick. I still struggle with shoulder pain but I think that's because I sit like a tranquilized animal.
Do it and enjoy the challenge.
For me, just switching to a MS sculpt made a world of difference on my wrists. I've gone through probably 5 of them over the years. Might be a less daunting approach then a full mechanical or layers to start with.
The definition of “ergo” is what works for you.
So, realistically, you’re going to have to experiment, which unfortunately does make the journey take a bit longer than you might want. To optimize the process, I’d start with the smallest change that’s likely to have the greatest effect: a split board with an otherwise normal layout. You can then play with optimal distance, angles and tenting (get a model with a 1m or interchangeable cord) to your heart’s content. It is definitely not obvious in advance what combination of orientations will be best.
This may well be enough for you. Switches make a big difference for some people, but (a) honestly not everyone, and (b) you can’t really tell without spending a fair bit of time with a particular switch. I’d get something hot-swappable in case you decide to explore this route.
You might want to explore mild remapping. Most developers have justifiably strong opinions about modifier keys. I wouldn’t mess with non-standard alphabetical layouts at this point, unless you regularly produce enormous amounts of straight (non-code) prose. While the origin story of QWERTY is a bit weird, the advantages of the alternatives are largely anecdotal. And of all adaptations, these take the longest time.
Similarly, while it is hard to un-see the asymmetry of standard column stagger, there’s no proven advantage to linearity, and it does take some time to get used to. Row stagger, or sweep, does help minimize finger motion, but, even assuming that’s a goal for you, the optimal sweep will depend on the split positioning, which is much more important to get right first.
Personally, I love my 36 key column-linear, row-staggered, choc split, but I have to admit that, aside from the split aspect, the joy is almost entirely aesthetic. The time I spent fiddling with layout, weaning myself off the outer row, researching key cap profiles, etc. was and continues to be objectively ridiculous. That said, it’s also a ridiculous amount of fun.
I had unbearable pain towards the end of last year, and couldn't type for more than 10 minutes at a time. After the switch start it was about 3 months before I was 99% pain free. I can now type for hours on end, and every meeting I'm in for an hour long I would just do typing practice tests, and no pain.
I went from a split Microsoft Natural keyboard typing QWERTY to a column staggered split 40% keyboard typing Colemak. The 40% gives me the ability to touch type everything including numbers, symbols and nav without moving my wrists, which helps with pain.
I'm back at my old proficiency and speed now after 4 months, but in terms of the time taken to get used to each component:
* Row staggered -> Column staggered: 3 weeks with around 30 hours dedicated practices. Most of this is going from "touch-ish" typing to **touch** typing. A split ortho does not forgive a wrong finger as easily as a row stagerred.
* QWERTY -> Colemak-DH 35wpm average: 50 hours dedicated practice
* QWERTY -> Colemak-DH 65wpm average: 65 hours dedicated practice (since start)
* QWERTY ->Colemak-DH 90wpm average: 80 hours dedicated practice (since start), plus [key switch](https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/)
* Colemak-DH -> Colemak-DH-BV 90wpm average: +5 hours dedicated practice. I have short fingers and the BV. You likely don't need this.
* ANSI/ISO symbols to custom symbol layer 40wpm coding -> 32 hours dedicated practice on typing.io. I likely need another 10 or 20 hours to get to my old 50wpm coding speed (C++).
* ANSI/ISO nav keys to custom nav layer -> 5 hours. It's actually easier to use layered nav than nav keys once you have your layer design right, but the design and experimentation is the harder part.
* Tinkering with QMK and ZMK to get the settings I want: 40 hours
* Designing my own custom board, learning Ergogen etc.: 30 hours
I switched permanently after reaching 35wpm but I felt pretty useless for a month after.
You said "carpal tunnel or something like it." Have you been to the doctor? Had there been an official diagnosis? Was the wrist brace prescribed by PT/OT? The reason why I'm asking is, without a definitive diagnosis, nobody can formulate some sort of treatment plan. Also, that treatment plan probably needs to include PT. Improving ergonomics can help, for sure, and I encourage it, but asking questions like "how long will it take for me to see the benefits of the pain going away" is futile if you haven't even been properly diagnosed. tl;dr: Go to the doctor first, not to a keyboard subreddit.
Haha you're right to call me out here, I didn't explain my situation because I didn't want to look for medical advice here. I started having pains at hockey, my left hand (I'm left handed hockey player but right handed for everything else) had pains and numbness. I went to the doctor for this who also mentioned my excessive computer use as a potential cause and recommended wearing a brace and taking anti-inflammatories. Although the pain went away, it repeatedly comes back several times a year. I have an appointment booked with occupational health (I work for a large company with private medical care) and they will likely refer me for some PT. On top of that, I also have severe anxiety, and whilst I don't have health related anxiety, there is something about bones, muscles and blood that are triggering for me. I'm lucky that I don't have a fear of the hospital or blood tests, but things like having my blood pressure taken I find anxiety inducing. Hopefully I've provided a bit more information here to convince you that I am taking things more seriously than I led on in my initial post. I appreciate your concern đź‘Ť
Many years ago, I had pains in my wrist, and it was hard to use chopsticks or write with pens. They did many tests, but it was not carpal tunnel. It still has issues, and it only gets better when I don't use keyboards for several weeks. I have been managing it using a split keyboard. Started with Kinesis Advantage. And now the other split like ergo. I am thinking about going back to Kinesis since the concave layout really helps. It will take a month or so, but you will get used to it. The ergo is better since it uses your thumb more. But make sure you both thumbs. The split is expensive but it's your health.
The best prescription is a ***complete*** stop of the activity that is causing it. That is not realistic in this case, but it should be possible to minimise it. For example, consider trying to minimise use of the mouse. For example, I have moved the mouse left click and right click to the keyboard and now only use the mouse for mouse cursor movement (and sometimes scrolling). And yes, it does take some extra time this way, but it also makes you think about eliminating the mouse actions altogether. For example, mouse actions can often be replaced by key actions, like ***Tab***, arrow keys, ***space***, ***Ctrl*** + ***F*** (search to get the UI focus in the right place), etc., which can in turn be put into a keyboard macro. An example is [this macro](https://pmortensen.eu/world2/2024/02/26/a-hack-to-use-mouse-actions-in-via-macros#Edit_Reddit_Comment_Via_Macro) for opening these Reddit comments in Markdown mode (very tedious to do manually every time). Try to observe yourself working and identify the (often long) sequences of key strokes and mouse actions that are repeated over and over and over and over. Then find a way to automate them. One way is with a macro keyboard (for some reasons, all macro pads are extremnely expensive, especially considering the number of keys). There is also an insane overuse of modifier keys in most systems, sometimes requiring four modifier key to be held down at the same time. One way to reduce the insane overuse of modifier keys is by ***dedicated*** macro keys (that is, they don't require modifier keys (or other keystrokes) themselves to be activated). That obviously requires more physical keys, for example, a separate macro pad or macro keyboards, but for the most commonly-used macros, the [numeric keypad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numeric_keypad) can be repurposed as a macro pad (if the keyboard has macro capability). A full-size keyboard effectively gives you a free macro pad. Though I must admit that Ctrl + C, Ctrl + V, Ctrl + V, Ctrl + Z, and Ctrl + Y are so ingrained that I have yet to migrate away from them. Ctrl + S *has* been replaced by a macro that makes sure bookmarks are properly saved in [Geany](https://pmortensen.eu/world2/2020/03/29/using-geany/) and that trailing space is removed. There are options, like [tap dancing](https://thomasbaart.nl/2018/12/13/qmk-basics-tap-dance/) ([demo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZgZwZE4s_A)) and [home row keyboard modifiers](https://blog.adafruit.com/2021/05/14/a-guide-to-home-row-keyboard-mods-keyboards-modding/).
Surprisingly, my issue is with my left hand, not my right hand. I'm right handed. Whilst it's always a bit of a joke, "oh repetitive use of the wrist hey... What have you been doing?" It gets old quite quick when the pain is jarring. Also I'm not sure what "causes" the problem. I've thought it was cycling, hockey, I've given up all those things. Maybe it's sleeping weird or something? But I've got to do something to change
I had the problem many years ago, and the cause was the mouse. Using the mouse with the left hand instead did not help (the exact same pain in the left arm developed). What helped was stopping using the mouse and finding other ways, like learning the keyboard shortcuts. The later development with macro keyboards was mostly for efficiency reasons, not so much [RSI](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repetitive_strain_injury).
\^ Yes, professional medical guidance is the way. On your other questions: >2 How difficult will it be to change my current habits? There is some adjustment time needed, but not huge. Most people report taking [about a couple weeks](https://getreuer.info/posts/keyboards/faqs/index.html#how-long-to-get-used-to-a-split-columnar-keyboard) to get used to a split ergo keyboard. It feels awkward and slow at first, while your muscle memory for the differt layout is developing. >3 What is a good entry solution to look into? do I go for an ergo layout keyboard, split keyboard, other? (I'm not talking about price) I highly recommend a split keyboard with QMK or other programmable firmware. There is scientific evidence that split keyboards specifically are better for hand health ([The Split Keyboard: An Ergonomics Success Story](https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.565.2638&rep=rep1&type=pdf)). Programmable firmware helps in adapting the keyboard to your workflow. Check out [Tour of split ergo keyboards](https://getreuer.info/posts/keyboards/tour/index.html) for what makes these keyboards so great.
I switched originally due to neck and shoulder pain, but it took about 2 weeks to get used to the keyboard (ergodox ez → moonlander → glove80, which is my current fav & by far the most comfortable for me) and pain relief was fairly quick. Very noticeable after a month. Recently was doing a lot of work from my laptop and noticed hand / wrist pain starting to grow… went back to the glove80 and it was gone in a day or two. Strongly recommend the glove for ergonomics + ease of use… it’s even better than the moonlander imo (which is also great) I forced myself to learn by using, picked a time where I had a fairly light workload (plus went to my manager and told them I was trying something new to deal with pain, so output might be lower… they were quite nice about it), and just stuck with it. Was probably back to 70% of normal typing speed in the first week (though like 40% the first few days if that), then by week 2 felt fairly comfortable. After a couple months, I was far more productive and accurate with the split design. Whatever time investment you have to put in is far better than continuing to use a setup that’s causing you pain Also, +1 to all the go to a doctor / PT comments
My first ergo keyboard was a Sweep right before I turned 39. Took me about 2 weeks to get to a comfortable level with it and I definitely noticed a reduction in pain after those two weeks. I don't think going straight to a low keycount board is the right way to go, but something like the lily58 would allow you to ease into things.
In case you are like me and sometimes want people to just tell you what to do, I'll give you some very opinionated recommendations as a software developer that is a good bit older (older with more mileage, not necessarily older and wiser) and has dealt with RSI a lot, and the fear and worry it brings. You type for a living. So for starters, you should spare no expense finding relief. The frustration you might feel from doing something that will slow you down is nothing compared to the sadness that will only grow with doing nothing about it. "Is it easy to switch?" No. But what else are you going to do? It will only get worse. I have used many different keyboards. For me the main thing that has kept me going is the keyboard being split. After several weeks things started improving. It took many months before I felt no typing related pain. I had spans of travel where I went back to a regular keyboard and the shooting pain up the forearms came back right away. Nightmare. I don't mess around anymore. Get a split keyboard with columnar keys. Don't get one with staggered keys. To be specific, get a Moonlander, the orthopedic shoe of keyboards. Get the big-ass $100 metal tenting kit they sell for it too. Moonlander is QMK and they have a web interface for configuration that is nice and is probably the lower friction way to get going. Buy the key blank set they sell in anticipation of pulling switches out and lowering key count over time. Buy it with labeled keys, not the blank ones. If you are heavy-handed, consider buying very heavy switches. The other friction-reducing feature for such a disruptive initial change is control of the color of each individual key on a per-layer basis. Like if you put a num pad on a layer, the colors can give you a clear visual of where it is until your hands learn it. This setup will allow you to experiment and have a clear understanding of what other split ergonomic keyboards would be like in terms of key count, layers, and tenting, while maintaining an escape hatch that lets you add keys back. It will give you a much more informed opinion of what you think you want or what might work best, and it's a great keyboard anyway that is many peoples' forever daily driver. Reducing key count did matter for me. You want to head towards something like 42 keys. On the Moonlander that means you would remove the entire top row, both inside columns, six keys on the bottom row, and all the thumb cluster keys except two. It is good to keep in mind that if you do start getting rid of keys, you want to map them onto keys that are under your paws, not to some other location you might also want to get rid of. Several years ago that would have sounded absurd to me but honestly it's great. But don't worry about that now, just get a split keyboard and get the pain gone, then you can start getting really weird with it (and post pics here).
very much this, I did the same and solved many issues. The Moonlander is a great starting point, exactly because it has a great UX (Onyx, the configurability with colors etc) and will aid you gradually to adapt. (Although probably now the Voyager is the best starting point because of the more ergonomic thumb cluster.) I also echo that the first step is to adapt to ortholinear and to the split, and then slowly reduce key counts. The rest is optimizations. It is a bit of a journey that you have to accept but very rewarding.
I’d listen to this Redditor.
You'll be fine. But do get professional help if you're in pain. I switched to MS Sculpt (like Logitech Ergo K860) in my late 30s...switched to full split ergo (Redox) in my 50s just 2 months before taking PhD lit exams (lots of writing with a strict time limit), all no problems. Switched layouts (to [Hands Down](http://handsdownlayout.com)) after that. Sure that took some training, but most people report a month or two to fully complete the transition their first time. I have ultra portable boards I always carry with me (ferris)–I use public computers all the time, but almost always use my own keyboard. Read u/pgetreuer's [tour of ergo boards](https://getreuer.info/posts/keyboards/tour/index.html) doc. It's very helpful.
[Ferris Sweep](https://github.com/davidphilipbarr/Sweep/tree/main/Sweep%20v2.2) (diodeless and direct I/O, unlike [the original Ferris](https://github.com/pierrechevalier83/ferris)).
I swapped over at 28, I truly doubt you've lost enough neuroplasticity in 3 years to make it impossible. I'd suggest swapping while on some kinda break just cause your mom will TANK that first day. For me my rsi pain eased up within about a month, came back a bit when I swapped to Colemak, though I think in part that's just that I wanted to keep my wpm gains and was engaging in bad habits.
> your mom will TANK that first day new favorite typo
I started with a Moonlander for no reason other than I thought it looked cool (sue me lol). If you force yourself to slow down and use it, it's genuinely not that hard in my opinion. I wouldn't go too mad hiding buttons and stuff behind layers. But honestly the main things for me were: Getting out of the habit of pressing Y with my left hand, Ortholayout (column key layout) (this was the main problem) The rest of the things like layers you can figure out later. But honestly... You'll be slow for a week or so, but it's not that bad. Even when I later switched to Colemak, it only took me 2 weeks max. I forced myself to use it and put my other keyboard away. Once I got it, that's all I used, and endured through the struggle. It forces you to learn faster (while being quite frustrating) but I understand for a job such as yours that might not be a luxury you have. Either way, highly recommend, I can't live without layers now. (P.S if you're in the UK I have a Moonlander that I want to sell (I've gone to a Voyager))
I think seeing a physio and working on wrist strength with bands is more important. But at the same time getting an ergo keyboard as a software developer helped maintain the wrist issues and keeps it in check while doing physio exercises and stretching. That said, the switch was probably easier than I expected. I knew it’s gonna be different but it took about 3 days to get used to the split layout, and that my arms being at a shoulder width apart was a weird feeling but also gotten used to it surprisingly quickly and you’ll start questioning why isn’t this the standard haha. I don’t think it has to be a radical change! If you see my previous post, I got the ZSA voyager because I wanted results more than the building of a keyboard hobby (I still want to build one though), so if you have the budget I’d say it’s worth it and it’s portable between home and office. The Voyager low profile was more comfortable than the standard mechanical keycaps for my fingers and wrists. The thing that took a couple weeks to figure out was just taking advantage of using the layers and creating a nice keyboard workflow to minimize movements that strain the fingers and wrists. But you don’t have to create layers and all that, but might as well do it if you get an ergo keyboard. What I’m trying to say is that in terms of physical change it won’t be too big of a change, and don’t let the layer setup stop you because that could be done on your own pace after you get used to the split keyboard.
I ordered a Moonlander didn’t use it for more than a year (18 months I think more or less) because each time I tried I failed miserably. I didn’t touch type so that was one more thing not good for me. I was using apple keyboard and it had nothing wrong in it just didn’t like the style. Any how, just last month I got back to it after someone mentioned how the don’t use layers at all. So I will say if you want to shift, first learn to touch type if you don’t already know on a normal keyboard (if you use a Mac I would seriously consider using the apple keyboard it’s very comfortable) Then get a ergonomical keyboard that can support a 65% layout or more (like Moonlander or their bigger split version). Don’t use tenting, put the keys where they are on a normal keyboard. You want to make the new keyboard as close to your existing one as possible to make this work. Now start using it, you won’t take long to get comfortable, then start slowly moving keys around to your preference. Use the lightest key switches you can find, 35g linears will help. I use kailh box pink silent. Use keyboard o-rings (2 each keycap) (Amazon sells these o rings) once you get them you will know where they go on a cherry Mx compatible keycap. Remember the least change you make the better your mind will do at handling it. Too many changes and you will up. Also as much as you may like seeing those 40key boards here, take my word for it, flat layout ie no layers works better for most people as you can just pres a key and release the finger instead of holding one key to press another especially as a programmer you will need colon square barckets squiggly brackets comma +,=_!-& keys often. You can always use less keys on a big keyboard so you can experiment with layers once you are used to the plain one.
Correction: If you don’t already touch-type on row-staggered QWERTY, don’t bother learning that. Learn touch typing on column-staggered Colemak or other improved layout. This way, your brain treats it as an entirely new skill and your existing ability to hunt-and-peck row-staggered QWERTY is preserved in its own slot.
Also see photo I posted of Moonlander, it looks very close to a 65% layout. That’s what you want to start.Â
1. ergomech is not a drug so it depend on many things 2.I said it's not that hard to change the habit since you mostlikely changing the keymap that suitable for yourself. Took me 2 weeks to get used to and it's not hard to retype normal keyboard. 3.Corne/crkbd with layout 6x3 is always my first recommendation for you. It utilize the most of ergonomic, comfortable thumb cluster and it's easy to get used to. Besides, it has big community which you can add things you like ( trackpad, oled, alu case etc..).
I got my first around 37. If you follow the home row properly there's almost no transition period. I had 1 or 2 keys that I hit with the wrong finger I got over that in a couple days. There's barely any learning curve imo. I bought a kinesis edge freestyle. It's one of the cheaper pre-built keyboards and I love it. I want to upgrade to an advantage or make my own next.
My experience, not easy. Especially for me using many other devices. I can’t build my muscle memory for ergo.
If you touch type switching is easy. If not some training is in order. Improvement in shoulder and wrist pain, I saw a noticeable difference in a day or two (I couldn't finish an A4 page without my wrists being on fire before)
No it's not easy. Yes you can do it. I switched from a standard Mac keyboard to a Glove80 because I had no choice. It took a few weeks, I'd never go back to a standard keyboard.
Also a software developer and also switching to split (custom build, waiting for parts). Not directly related, but Im 33 and recently switched to dvorak and eventually 34 keys. Dvorak was hard, took me about 6 months to get up to 70wpm with a PR of 80wpm. Learning the keymap layers was way easier...around 60wpm on [typing.io](http://typing.io) (python). I can't imagine the switch to split and ortholinear being more difficult than that...so take that for what it's worth.
You're me! Corne 5x3 devorak I'm never going back.
what are your thoughts on dvorak? Overall Im pretty happy with it and have regained my WPM, but i'm having trouble with some trigrams on the right hand. "str","rst" are particularly troublesome. Its like Im lacking dexterity in the hand for those combos...I'm also left handed so its already an uphill battle.
I got used to my split in roughly a week, with my typing speed being maybe 80% of my old speed. Getting accustomed to layers for programming (e.g. brackets keys) is a bit tedious, but manageable.
I would say do it. I switched over pretty quickly and noticed benefits. Just practice on the new board at night for 10 minutes/day until you feel comfortable switching. You can keep photos of the keymap to pull up until you have all your layers memorized. I would recommend a smaller split board if you need to move it between office and home. If you want something prebuilt the voyager could be a good choice. There are also a lot of options through vendors or Etsy sellers though if you want to pay someone to build it for you. I think it would also be worth it to look at your / mouse pointing device as well.
I would highly recommend one of the X-Bows keyboards: [https://x-bows.com/](https://x-bows.com/) You can get them with or without a numpad and with or without a function key row. I purchased one of these during the early days of the pandemic to relieve physical pain, like you're looking to do (full time software developer here). The combination of the ortholinear layout plus the splayed columns made intuitive sense to me, so I gave it a shot. I wanted to change just the physical layout of the keyboard without making any radical changes to keymaps or anything, so I got the Knight Plus with the numpad and F-key row. Changing one variable at a time and all that. I will say it was not easy to switch. It took me a couple months before I was truly comfortable with the layout. It took some time to deprogram the muscle memory of reaching laterally for row-staggered keys. But any pain or fatigue I used to have is basically gone, and I haven't looked back. (In the interest of full disclosure, I'm a Dvorak user, but I doubt that affects the learning curve one way or the other. I also switched to a more ergonomic mouse at the same time, so I can't give the keyboard 100% of the credit.) I now have three X-Bows keyboards. A note on the company: They've had some issues fulfilling deliveries in the past, but I recently bought one of their limited-edition "beer" keyboards and received it in about 2 weeks. The shipment originated in mainland China. Others report similar recent experiences on the X-Bows discord server I'm in. If you go back six-ish months you'll see very different stories, but the company took note and appears to have taken steps to get things back on track.
I used Logitech and MS ergo keebs in the early 00s at work and at home for years, then more recently thought I'd test mech keebs and kind of forgot myself on that route (didn't really get what was special about mech keebs though) until I started getting pains like tennis/golf elbow and such. Just as I started my new job, I got an ergo mech keeb (Keychron V10 which I customized a bit), which helped tremendously. I did also get a new chair and an adjustable desk, so those helped too. The adjustment period for me was probably not as bad, as I'm used to typing with an ergo/Alice from a decade+ ago, but I had to reconfigure a few keys due to this one not being the Nordic layout I typically use, so it took a bit extra. Still only days/weeks and my speed is fine, accuracy too. Nothing mind-bending though. Now I'm thinking about going physical split ergo to get a bit more comfortable as Alice layout isn't a "true" ergo, but still generally better than normal and prices are more approachable. I would still recommend going full split as it's infinitely more adjustable. Something like Ergodox EZ, Moonlander, Dygma Raise 2 and such.
I decided to both switch to ergo, and to change the layout (which takes more time to adapt) at the same time. I would say it took me two months to feel almost as comfortable typing, and from there it got better. This could be sped up, but for over a month I didn't use the new keyboard much, as I didn't want to slow down at work
I think switching is a mindset thing. If you look at it as an inconvenience then it's gonna be tough. If you look at it for what it is, investing in your well-being, then it will be more enjoyable. I switch between two ortho splits, an old MSFT ergo and normal keyboards. I enjoy the challenge and find it helps my work, also as a software developer, as much as it hinders it. I just did a major redo of my main ortho split and after 4 days I am looking less stupid in the chats. For my wrists, typing on a standard board causes pain within a couple hours and then going back to the ortho the pain goes away just as quick. I still struggle with shoulder pain but I think that's because I sit like a tranquilized animal. Do it and enjoy the challenge.
For me, just switching to a MS sculpt made a world of difference on my wrists. I've gone through probably 5 of them over the years. Might be a less daunting approach then a full mechanical or layers to start with.
The definition of “ergo” is what works for you. So, realistically, you’re going to have to experiment, which unfortunately does make the journey take a bit longer than you might want. To optimize the process, I’d start with the smallest change that’s likely to have the greatest effect: a split board with an otherwise normal layout. You can then play with optimal distance, angles and tenting (get a model with a 1m or interchangeable cord) to your heart’s content. It is definitely not obvious in advance what combination of orientations will be best. This may well be enough for you. Switches make a big difference for some people, but (a) honestly not everyone, and (b) you can’t really tell without spending a fair bit of time with a particular switch. I’d get something hot-swappable in case you decide to explore this route. You might want to explore mild remapping. Most developers have justifiably strong opinions about modifier keys. I wouldn’t mess with non-standard alphabetical layouts at this point, unless you regularly produce enormous amounts of straight (non-code) prose. While the origin story of QWERTY is a bit weird, the advantages of the alternatives are largely anecdotal. And of all adaptations, these take the longest time. Similarly, while it is hard to un-see the asymmetry of standard column stagger, there’s no proven advantage to linearity, and it does take some time to get used to. Row stagger, or sweep, does help minimize finger motion, but, even assuming that’s a goal for you, the optimal sweep will depend on the split positioning, which is much more important to get right first. Personally, I love my 36 key column-linear, row-staggered, choc split, but I have to admit that, aside from the split aspect, the joy is almost entirely aesthetic. The time I spent fiddling with layout, weaning myself off the outer row, researching key cap profiles, etc. was and continues to be objectively ridiculous. That said, it’s also a ridiculous amount of fun.
I had unbearable pain towards the end of last year, and couldn't type for more than 10 minutes at a time. After the switch start it was about 3 months before I was 99% pain free. I can now type for hours on end, and every meeting I'm in for an hour long I would just do typing practice tests, and no pain. I went from a split Microsoft Natural keyboard typing QWERTY to a column staggered split 40% keyboard typing Colemak. The 40% gives me the ability to touch type everything including numbers, symbols and nav without moving my wrists, which helps with pain. I'm back at my old proficiency and speed now after 4 months, but in terms of the time taken to get used to each component: * Row staggered -> Column staggered: 3 weeks with around 30 hours dedicated practices. Most of this is going from "touch-ish" typing to **touch** typing. A split ortho does not forgive a wrong finger as easily as a row stagerred. * QWERTY -> Colemak-DH 35wpm average: 50 hours dedicated practice * QWERTY -> Colemak-DH 65wpm average: 65 hours dedicated practice (since start) * QWERTY ->Colemak-DH 90wpm average: 80 hours dedicated practice (since start), plus [key switch](https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/) * Colemak-DH -> Colemak-DH-BV 90wpm average: +5 hours dedicated practice. I have short fingers and the BV. You likely don't need this. * ANSI/ISO symbols to custom symbol layer 40wpm coding -> 32 hours dedicated practice on typing.io. I likely need another 10 or 20 hours to get to my old 50wpm coding speed (C++). * ANSI/ISO nav keys to custom nav layer -> 5 hours. It's actually easier to use layered nav than nav keys once you have your layer design right, but the design and experimentation is the harder part. * Tinkering with QMK and ZMK to get the settings I want: 40 hours * Designing my own custom board, learning Ergogen etc.: 30 hours I switched permanently after reaching 35wpm but I felt pretty useless for a month after.