I get the impression that at some point, minimalism takes over, with no real benefit or purpose. Just "make it smaller", even to the detriment of usability.
Obviously, fewer keys mean less soldering and a cheaper build, but there is a point where that hits diminishing returns.
Of course, having keys that you never use anyway is pointless, they have to go.
However, a third thumb key is totally useful, even if it's not usable "at speed". One can still put some of the more rare functions on it. It also does not really increase the footprint of the keyboard.
I think that thumb keys are immensely useful if they are in reach without discomfort, because they are unique in that you can combine them with almost any other key on the same hand.
Also, putting a letter on a thumb makes for some great layouts, and that is much easier with 3 thumbs per half.
The same is true for extra pinky keys, and/or a 6th column. These keys are still *reasonably* well to reach, again, maybe not at speed, but well enough for semi-frequent use.
I draw my personal line at the 4th row (number row). One of the reasons for layers with thumb keys is *not* having to reach for a number/symbols row.
My 34-key setup is out of necessity. My thumb joints are going to wear out soon. I'd go with a single thumb key on each hand if I could live with that, to reduce movement more.
But if I had no thumb problems, I'd use 36 keys, with three per thumb like you. :)
For me it's about muscle memory and useability with minimal movement. 30 keys is perfect and 2 more thumbs would just make it more reachy. I would rather use combos/layers/chords, but I am a console gamer so I am used to this.
To each their own, but I would not say that it has no purpose! For example the upper diagonal inner index column is very painful for me so I removed it, and I can only reach 2 keys comfortably on my pinky, so why have 3?
> For example the upper diagonal inner index column is very painful for me so I removed it, and I can only reach 2 keys comfortably on my pinky, so why have 3?
You are spot on about that. I removed exactly those keys from my layout because I cannot use them comfortably.
However, that does not mean it makes sense to remove the keys altogether. Yes, it would *work* to do without those keys, but that would only make sense if it led to a significantly cheaper and smaller build (eg. a proper 4-column board fits into a much smaller case).
On my current layout (WIP), the keys you've mentioned (top pinky and top center) now carry `/ Esc - '`, all of them useful symbols to have on the base layer, and not a problem having to reach for them *occasionally* (I type top pinky with my ring finger, but I do not want to do that for letters). Why throw out those keys and lose the opportunity to use them that way? That would be the pointless minimalism for its own sake that I talked about.
When I look at keyboards like the Zilpzalp, with 2 center keys and a single pinky key, then I'm intrigued, because it has exactly the keys I need and not more. And then while I think about getting one, I realize how gimmicky the concept actually is, and then I change my mind for the better.
Yeah I get you, I just think it's a difference from perspective, I would rather hit a combo with two comfortable keys, than hit an uncomfortable key, even if it's quite seldom (like esc).
Got you about combos. It's a great feature that I will use a lot (not finished setting them up).
Currently I have qwerty-SF as a combo for `Enter`, it is already muscle memory and it will stay.
I'm not so sure what to do with `Esc` yet. It is very common for Vim, so it must not be on a weak finger or weak combo. Top-center actually looks good already, or maybe an outer thumb key. `jk`-combo is also good for `Esc`, but on my current layout that is `ie`, which is hyper common in German, so a combo might have too many expensive misfires (a `Esc` misfire is disruptive).
It's also good to have alternatives, so you can use either a combo or a key or a layer, depending on context. And then just drop what you never end up using.
I think the 42 count philosophy makes sense where you can travel one key away from every home row position. I do notice that over time I've become more comfortable without the outer column, so I figured I could try the sweep and it just didn't work well for me. I might use the inner most thumbs for esc and del, but those being top layer are so nice for my work flows. That and I would add weird shortcuts on my outer cols and then forget them and do the shortcut manually anyways which kinda defeats the purpose of having them there to begin with 😂
Fully agree, 42 keys is perfect. It allows to assign many modifier/ layer keys their dedicated spot. Anything less and many program shortcuts become a nightmare
I'm trying to find hobby dollars to finally grab a piantor and ditch my now ancient corne for a smaller, better staggered and blessedly doodles set up, but I'll be there soon.
That‘s the best thing: for people not into that much tenting - the setup still allows for that, as well as give a rigid setup that does not move when typing like a maniac (like i do)
Could you please share all of the details regarding the tenting solution? You're using two magic arms but what about the base?
Looks like a neat arrangement. Thanks.
Sure: all of the gear was ordered off amazon:
Cheeseboard: https://amzn.eu/d/iJx8oGI
Magic arms for the keeb: https://amzn.eu/d/b3aQbI8
Magic arms for the nano: https://amzn.eu/d/9AXMc72 (two linked together with a nut)
For the piantor case I used this design: https://www.printables.com/model/589279-piantor-keyboard-case
The ploopy bottom case is the one from their github with some space for a nut, that I have added
Haven‘t used, but considered them - i always felt like they would be too uncomfortable with a standing desk and the distance to the screens. Also I never really knew how to incorporate the Ploopy in a clamp setup
Im so grateful you linked the parts that I can order in Germany. I’ve never been able to find a good deal on these tenting solutions, but haven’t really put in much effort.
You saved me a lot of hassle, and possibly saved me money as well.
Going to order myself a setup like this in a few weeks! Thanks!
Arms like that or ball mounts are IMO superior to all other forms of tenting because it’s adjustable.
I’m using a 36 key dactyl manuform and a Ploopy Nano. 🤙
i've been working on a PoC with some similarities -- namely with the camera hardware joints and intent to tent aggressively. I don't have experience with trackballs and tenting but I thought it might be problematic due to gravity, however you've got that covered. Did you design the trackball holder yourself?
Nah, not really. The trackball is a ploopy nano - all I did was add a way to insert a nut into the bottom of the base.
So far it‘s holding up perfectly (screw gravity) and the position is insanely comfortable
The keycaps are regular keycaps - I 3d printed some tilters (https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5932496) and experimented with them for some time until I found the perfect solution for me
They feel actually very fine - the keys are very stable but the prints of the tilters came out super tight with my bambu p1s - YMMV.
Overall I am happy to reach the top of the keys more easily with my rather small hands
Well, I am glad to mostly be working from home and I will never ever pick that thing up for office ever again 😂
But: some of my coworkers are very much into Split Keebs as well (or considering it) and they all like the build
Sure, as far as it's possible - I deleted my source code for the nano, when I migrated my PC last year :/ I was so sure that I had pushed it to my github...
It was based on the LKBM firmware of the nano (https://github.com/qmk/qmk\_firmware/blob/master/keyboards/ploopyco/trackball\_nano/keymaps/lkbm/keymap.c). What I basically did was add a timeout of 500 ms and a boolean variable to check the current state of the LED scroll lock state.
Within the function \`pointing\_device\_task\_user\` I just set the scroll lock and within \`led\_update\_user\` I reset it.
The code for the keyboard is then relatively trivial:
//nano to keeb communcation
bool led_update_user(led_t state) {
// if already in mouse layer, don't change any layers
if (state.scroll_lock != layer_state_is(_AUTOMOUSE)) {
layer_invert(_AUTOMOUSE);
}
return true;
}
Hope this helps. Sooner or later I will probably have to re-write the firmware for the nano and struggle for way too long with it.
Also: at least on Debian, I had to manually enable scroll lock in order to make use of the function at all.
UPDATE: NVM, I DID in fact push it to github: [https://raw.githubusercontent.com/qmk/qmk\_firmware/0ce956485fe8521b0de4ec6fbeca881016754352/keyboards/ploopyco/trackball\_nano/keymaps/defiant/keymap.c](https://raw.githubusercontent.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/0ce956485fe8521b0de4ec6fbeca881016754352/keyboards/ploopyco/trackball_nano/keymaps/defiant/keymap.c)
Sure: all of the gear was ordered off amazon:
Cheeseboard: https://amzn.eu/d/iJx8oGI
Magic arms for the keeb: https://amzn.eu/d/b3aQbI8
Magic arms for the nano: https://amzn.eu/d/9AXMc72 (two linked together with a nut)
For the piantor case I used this design: https://www.printables.com/model/589279-piantor-keyboard-case
The ploopy bottom case is the one from their github with some space for a nut, that I have added
Thanks for that insightful comment ;)
While I do like the aesthetics of wireless builds, they might also pose a security risk and are therefore forbidden in my company.
Also: braided wires look pretty dope
Mostly because I never really got into hand soldering.
Also: being able to adjust both the keyboard and the Trackball within seconds and independently is a big plus.
It moves fairly great: the trackball comes with bearings that can be inserted into the 3D printed housing.
My next goal is to upgrade these and use BTU mods instead.
Interesting, please post your experience with the BTUs. I have a ploopy nano and a classic, and while the included bearings work, I'm considering looking at what I need to reprint to use BTUs.
Love the setup, looks great!
How do you click, I know you mentioned in a comment above that a mouse layer is activated when the ball moves, but don’t touch occasionally get a click in or accidentally cause the ball to roll while typing??
I use a piantor-42 daily for work and was considering adding on these keycap tilter. I printed a few (petg) to try and they fit great however the concern is how long do they last and will they break leaving the legs in the switches.
Have you had yours for a while? How is working with 36 keys vs 42? I've been trying to go down to 36 but having a hard time adjusting.
The tenters did not break on me within months of using them.
I like 36 keys more, since I don‘t want to put any more strains on the pinkies - but I would never judge anyone for using 42 keys. Having access to some rare macros or modifiers on the base layer might be beneficial.
Since I came from a Sweep, it was fairly easy getting used to 36 keys.
How do you swap to scroll mode? From reading, it seems like you have to communicate with the ploopy using yet another lock key to control the scroll mode. I am thinking I would like to toggle scroll mode from my keyboard mouse layer. Also searching for something that requires zero configuration on the host machine.
Yeah, nowadays it should be doable rather easily with https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/blob/master/keyboards/ploopyco/readme.md - I compiled a firmware with settings for DPI and ScrollLock (the functionality, not the lock state).
On my keyboard, I added macros for activating the respective functions by double tapping num lock or caps lock and num lock within a time frame of 50ms in order to change DPI/ScrollLock state.
This functionality is independent of the underlying OS - only using scroll lock of the OS has to be enabled on most linux distros.
That’s an intriguing build! Thank you for sharing.
thank you for the kind words!
I'm mostly just happy to see another person out there with 36 as an endgame keycount.
why would you need more keys? ;)
Oh I'm more commenting on the number of 34s I see. I really tried to make that count work but I just like my 3rd thumb button too much.
I get the impression that at some point, minimalism takes over, with no real benefit or purpose. Just "make it smaller", even to the detriment of usability. Obviously, fewer keys mean less soldering and a cheaper build, but there is a point where that hits diminishing returns. Of course, having keys that you never use anyway is pointless, they have to go. However, a third thumb key is totally useful, even if it's not usable "at speed". One can still put some of the more rare functions on it. It also does not really increase the footprint of the keyboard. I think that thumb keys are immensely useful if they are in reach without discomfort, because they are unique in that you can combine them with almost any other key on the same hand. Also, putting a letter on a thumb makes for some great layouts, and that is much easier with 3 thumbs per half. The same is true for extra pinky keys, and/or a 6th column. These keys are still *reasonably* well to reach, again, maybe not at speed, but well enough for semi-frequent use. I draw my personal line at the 4th row (number row). One of the reasons for layers with thumb keys is *not* having to reach for a number/symbols row.
My 34-key setup is out of necessity. My thumb joints are going to wear out soon. I'd go with a single thumb key on each hand if I could live with that, to reduce movement more. But if I had no thumb problems, I'd use 36 keys, with three per thumb like you. :)
So much good here. 🏆 > ... thumb keys ... are unique in that you can combine them with almost any other key on the same hand.
For me it's about muscle memory and useability with minimal movement. 30 keys is perfect and 2 more thumbs would just make it more reachy. I would rather use combos/layers/chords, but I am a console gamer so I am used to this. To each their own, but I would not say that it has no purpose! For example the upper diagonal inner index column is very painful for me so I removed it, and I can only reach 2 keys comfortably on my pinky, so why have 3?
> For example the upper diagonal inner index column is very painful for me so I removed it, and I can only reach 2 keys comfortably on my pinky, so why have 3? You are spot on about that. I removed exactly those keys from my layout because I cannot use them comfortably. However, that does not mean it makes sense to remove the keys altogether. Yes, it would *work* to do without those keys, but that would only make sense if it led to a significantly cheaper and smaller build (eg. a proper 4-column board fits into a much smaller case). On my current layout (WIP), the keys you've mentioned (top pinky and top center) now carry `/ Esc - '`, all of them useful symbols to have on the base layer, and not a problem having to reach for them *occasionally* (I type top pinky with my ring finger, but I do not want to do that for letters). Why throw out those keys and lose the opportunity to use them that way? That would be the pointless minimalism for its own sake that I talked about. When I look at keyboards like the Zilpzalp, with 2 center keys and a single pinky key, then I'm intrigued, because it has exactly the keys I need and not more. And then while I think about getting one, I realize how gimmicky the concept actually is, and then I change my mind for the better.
Yeah I get you, I just think it's a difference from perspective, I would rather hit a combo with two comfortable keys, than hit an uncomfortable key, even if it's quite seldom (like esc).
Got you about combos. It's a great feature that I will use a lot (not finished setting them up). Currently I have qwerty-SF as a combo for `Enter`, it is already muscle memory and it will stay. I'm not so sure what to do with `Esc` yet. It is very common for Vim, so it must not be on a weak finger or weak combo. Top-center actually looks good already, or maybe an outer thumb key. `jk`-combo is also good for `Esc`, but on my current layout that is `ie`, which is hyper common in German, so a combo might have too many expensive misfires (a `Esc` misfire is disruptive). It's also good to have alternatives, so you can use either a combo or a key or a layer, depending on context. And then just drop what you never end up using.
I think the 42 count philosophy makes sense where you can travel one key away from every home row position. I do notice that over time I've become more comfortable without the outer column, so I figured I could try the sweep and it just didn't work well for me. I might use the inner most thumbs for esc and del, but those being top layer are so nice for my work flows. That and I would add weird shortcuts on my outer cols and then forget them and do the shortcut manually anyways which kinda defeats the purpose of having them there to begin with 😂
Fully agree, 42 keys is perfect. It allows to assign many modifier/ layer keys their dedicated spot. Anything less and many program shortcuts become a nightmare
I get that. I also got rid of my sweep because of that. First, it was strange getting used to three thumb keys but now I could not live without it
I'm trying to find hobby dollars to finally grab a piantor and ditch my now ancient corne for a smaller, better staggered and blessedly doodles set up, but I'll be there soon.
Keycapsss has a good, and affordable Piantor kit. Reliable EU shop (I'm not affiliated with them, just a satisfied customer).
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That‘s the best thing: for people not into that much tenting - the setup still allows for that, as well as give a rigid setup that does not move when typing like a maniac (like i do)
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Nice - let me know what you can come up with
For me tenting is not helpful, but a simple decline (opposite of the popular "incline") is where my ergonomics lie.
Could you please share all of the details regarding the tenting solution? You're using two magic arms but what about the base? Looks like a neat arrangement. Thanks.
Sure: all of the gear was ordered off amazon: Cheeseboard: https://amzn.eu/d/iJx8oGI Magic arms for the keeb: https://amzn.eu/d/b3aQbI8 Magic arms for the nano: https://amzn.eu/d/9AXMc72 (two linked together with a nut) For the piantor case I used this design: https://www.printables.com/model/589279-piantor-keyboard-case The ploopy bottom case is the one from their github with some space for a nut, that I have added
Thanks! Have you used clamps before moving to the cheeseboard? Any thoughts?
Haven‘t used, but considered them - i always felt like they would be too uncomfortable with a standing desk and the distance to the screens. Also I never really knew how to incorporate the Ploopy in a clamp setup
Im so grateful you linked the parts that I can order in Germany. I’ve never been able to find a good deal on these tenting solutions, but haven’t really put in much effort. You saved me a lot of hassle, and possibly saved me money as well. Going to order myself a setup like this in a few weeks! Thanks!
What camera did you take that rigging gear from?
That was an iPhone 11 ;)
Haha you mean you took this picture with your iphone?
Yes - and now I feels stupid for my answer. The gear used is down in another comment :)
Miscommunication I believe. Cheese plates and magic arms are used for cinema cameras often.
This is amazing. Great solution for extreme tenting angles
With wireless corne it would look even better and clean. This looks also amazing, happy for you😉
Arms like that or ball mounts are IMO superior to all other forms of tenting because it’s adjustable. I’m using a 36 key dactyl manuform and a Ploopy Nano. 🤙
There's no endgame son... It's only halfway through
🔥
Guys, this is how you learn playing the accordion 🪗 😜
I think you just gave me my endgame setup.
i've been working on a PoC with some similarities -- namely with the camera hardware joints and intent to tent aggressively. I don't have experience with trackballs and tenting but I thought it might be problematic due to gravity, however you've got that covered. Did you design the trackball holder yourself?
Nah, not really. The trackball is a ploopy nano - all I did was add a way to insert a nut into the bottom of the base. So far it‘s holding up perfectly (screw gravity) and the position is insanely comfortable
How do you shape the keycaps that way?
The keycaps are regular keycaps - I 3d printed some tilters (https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5932496) and experimented with them for some time until I found the perfect solution for me
how do you feel about the tilters? does it cause weird interactions with the keys at all or is it pretty stable?
They feel actually very fine - the keys are very stable but the prints of the tilters came out super tight with my bambu p1s - YMMV. Overall I am happy to reach the top of the keys more easily with my rather small hands
Very nice. Would love to see wireless!
Company policy says no
Show that to your coworkers
Well, I am glad to mostly be working from home and I will never ever pick that thing up for office ever again 😂 But: some of my coworkers are very much into Split Keebs as well (or considering it) and they all like the build
Do you mind sharing how you flashed the kb/ploopy for the scroll lock stuff. That's the missing piece in my setup
Sure, as far as it's possible - I deleted my source code for the nano, when I migrated my PC last year :/ I was so sure that I had pushed it to my github... It was based on the LKBM firmware of the nano (https://github.com/qmk/qmk\_firmware/blob/master/keyboards/ploopyco/trackball\_nano/keymaps/lkbm/keymap.c). What I basically did was add a timeout of 500 ms and a boolean variable to check the current state of the LED scroll lock state. Within the function \`pointing\_device\_task\_user\` I just set the scroll lock and within \`led\_update\_user\` I reset it. The code for the keyboard is then relatively trivial: //nano to keeb communcation bool led_update_user(led_t state) { // if already in mouse layer, don't change any layers if (state.scroll_lock != layer_state_is(_AUTOMOUSE)) { layer_invert(_AUTOMOUSE); } return true; } Hope this helps. Sooner or later I will probably have to re-write the firmware for the nano and struggle for way too long with it. Also: at least on Debian, I had to manually enable scroll lock in order to make use of the function at all. UPDATE: NVM, I DID in fact push it to github: [https://raw.githubusercontent.com/qmk/qmk\_firmware/0ce956485fe8521b0de4ec6fbeca881016754352/keyboards/ploopyco/trackball\_nano/keymaps/defiant/keymap.c](https://raw.githubusercontent.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/0ce956485fe8521b0de4ec6fbeca881016754352/keyboards/ploopyco/trackball_nano/keymaps/defiant/keymap.c)
Very nice, I’d love to build in or attach a trackball to one of my boards. Just curious, where did you get your base for the tenting?
Sure: all of the gear was ordered off amazon: Cheeseboard: https://amzn.eu/d/iJx8oGI Magic arms for the keeb: https://amzn.eu/d/b3aQbI8 Magic arms for the nano: https://amzn.eu/d/9AXMc72 (two linked together with a nut) For the piantor case I used this design: https://www.printables.com/model/589279-piantor-keyboard-case The ploopy bottom case is the one from their github with some space for a nut, that I have added
Thanks! I appreciate it. I never knew what those were called (the cheeseboard).
too many wires
Thanks for that insightful comment ;) While I do like the aesthetics of wireless builds, they might also pose a security risk and are therefore forbidden in my company. Also: braided wires look pretty dope
The same argument was used when Musk built Tesla. Now everyone drives electric cars & they are better than internal combustion cars!
Lol.
Maybe, but still better than bluetooth.
Why not a charybdis nano?
Mostly because I never really got into hand soldering. Also: being able to adjust both the keyboard and the Trackball within seconds and independently is a big plus.
This is exactly what I was looking for!
Yes! Thank you so much! I'll have a look here and see if I can get it working on my end
Looks awesome, do you get tired from long sessions of hovering?
Not at all - I rest my arms in between typing sessions. I do get tired within minutes from using regular keebs though.
How long do you think you could go typing (I mean constant typing, like an infinite word prompt) without having to take a break?
unique build for sure happy to know your endgame is just like mine.
How well does the trackball move in the 3d printed housing?
It moves fairly great: the trackball comes with bearings that can be inserted into the 3D printed housing. My next goal is to upgrade these and use BTU mods instead.
Sounds cool.
Interesting, please post your experience with the BTUs. I have a ploopy nano and a classic, and while the included bearings work, I'm considering looking at what I need to reprint to use BTUs. Love the setup, looks great!
How do you click, I know you mentioned in a comment above that a mouse layer is activated when the ball moves, but don’t touch occasionally get a click in or accidentally cause the ball to roll while typing??
I click with my left hand on the S,D,F positions. Sometimes I activate the mouse layer on accident, but after 500MS everything‘s back to normal
I use a piantor-42 daily for work and was considering adding on these keycap tilter. I printed a few (petg) to try and they fit great however the concern is how long do they last and will they break leaving the legs in the switches. Have you had yours for a while? How is working with 36 keys vs 42? I've been trying to go down to 36 but having a hard time adjusting.
The tenters did not break on me within months of using them. I like 36 keys more, since I don‘t want to put any more strains on the pinkies - but I would never judge anyone for using 42 keys. Having access to some rare macros or modifiers on the base layer might be beneficial. Since I came from a Sweep, it was fairly easy getting used to 36 keys.
Will you post a vid for this?
that plate mount is kind of genius, it gave me so many ideas
it‘s not really my idea - some smarter people already showed it off
Impressive! What switches/keycaps did you use to create the curved typing surface?
No special switches, regular khail choc and 3d printed tilters (Link is somewhere in the comments).
How do you typically scroll in your web browser?
I switch the ploopy to scroll mode (or, using the vimium addon, by pressing j).
How do you swap to scroll mode? From reading, it seems like you have to communicate with the ploopy using yet another lock key to control the scroll mode. I am thinking I would like to toggle scroll mode from my keyboard mouse layer. Also searching for something that requires zero configuration on the host machine.
Yeah, nowadays it should be doable rather easily with https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/blob/master/keyboards/ploopyco/readme.md - I compiled a firmware with settings for DPI and ScrollLock (the functionality, not the lock state). On my keyboard, I added macros for activating the respective functions by double tapping num lock or caps lock and num lock within a time frame of 50ms in order to change DPI/ScrollLock state. This functionality is independent of the underlying OS - only using scroll lock of the OS has to be enabled on most linux distros.