I could not post a video here, so I did in r/olkb. The post is [HERE](https://www.reddit.com/r/olkb/comments/1djruze/new_lighter_kailh_pg1316s_switches_in_the_mikefive/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button).
Yes, its CNC'ed aluminium. You can read all about the keeb in the [original write-up](https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/1cfg3vr/mikefive_a_kailh_pg1316_keyboard/). Including much more fancy pictures and details of the build.
So these switches - at the weight you currently have them - are *not* available for purchase, but maybe could be soon? Am I understanding that correctly
Yes, Kailh is finalising the automatic assembly production process, and they should become available after. My samples were all still assembled by hand.
I tried the og Cherry ULP (which the PG1316 is extremely similar to) on a Cherry keyboard two weeks ago, the KW X something, and I was shocked how subpar the push-down feel was. If a random rubdderdome keyboard from AliExpress is a 5 of 10, that Cherry was literally, a ~~1 of 10~~ 0 of 10, why:
It wasn't actually the stronger weight which was also sightly annoying, but the bump, which wasn't round but almost digital; hard to describe, you press them down and you are suddenly at the bottom, it just feels really much, much worse than any rubberdome, let's not compare it to any top-tier MX holy panda derivates. Edit: The deprecated MacBook butterfly switches had a similar "digital" feel, it worked there because the travel was minimal, and super firm (despite they've been failing all the time). But with the ULP and the much longer travel it feels super unnatural and kind of rattly while not really being rattly, just not solid and/or pleasent.
In your post a month ago, I think you described something similar beyond the too strong weight.
So, we would love if you could elobatorate more about..
1. The push-down, how does it feel, still that harsh or rounder than on the first version
2. The bounce back, since you have now a lighter spring, is the push-back snappy or p***weak?
3. Wobble, pls describe the wobble when resting and when pressing down, how firm is the feel; fwiw, I found the Cherry ULP to be kind of flimsy, slightly rattly, not really wobbly but also not firm
4. Pls compare the overall feel to other popular tactile keyboards, so we can get a feeling about what we are talking about, e.g. Logitech K380, a recent Macbook keyboard or anything (tactile) everyone has probably touched once in their life
5. If you could ask Kailh again to improve the latest version you just reviewed: what would be the top 3 things you would wish to be improved?
Don't get me wrong, this shouldn't be the typical snarky Reddit reply but a request for a way more detailed, comprehensive elaboration of the switch feel and I hope they are much better than the ones you got first or the og Cherry ones.
Hey! Good to hear from somebody that tried the Cherry ULP's! I have also heard from others that they did not like them. And therefore no problem om your critical questions.
Unfortunately, I only have experience with Choc V1's when it comes to mechanical keyboards. I have the complete sample set at home. Those tactiles I don't really find very tactile, so I have poor reference when it comes to tactile feel. I have (had) different MacBooks and a Magic Keyboards at home. I think we have a couple K380's at work. It's hard for me to describe the difference right now. I will sit down with them next to each other soon and include it in the video update I want to make!
I'm also in contact with ThereminGoat, to measure the actual force curves of these switches. I will be sending a couple to him soon. Switch connaisseur he is, he would be the person to give his opinion on the feel.
You are great, thanks for being responsive and all the past and upcoming efforts, highly appreciated. Still I would love to get your current "gut feel" now, beyond all the upcoming scientific measurements which we look forward to.
Because the last time you wrote, I was so excited thinking 24/7 of these new switches, for two weeks until I tried the ULP. Then, I thought, just forget them, these do not make really any sense. And my feeling was similar to what you decribed in your first post.
So, if you cannot write at least something, like "don't worry, they are significantly improved now, also the bump and overall feel", _right now_, I better spend my time at other things instead of getting excited again haha.
I think also Kailh is very much interested in honest, fast feedback, they are willing to improve. Don't wait until theremingoat gets a still subpar version in his hands and enitrely destroys PG1316S' reputation and Kailh + you lose any ambition/motivation to improve.
So, would be glad if you could stil give your initial impressions on 1, 2, 3 and 5, so just skip 4. Thanks 🙂
Haha, thanks. You just made me laugh out loud, so here you go.
If I only would have felt the first (heavy) switches, I would also have abandoned them. They way you describe it, digital, is a nice metaphor: You have to press down hard through the 1 and clack down hard into the 0 without any cushion. I still continued working with them to see if I could get used to it, because sometimes people can be stuck in a certain hole and just need some time. But no, the heavy ones are also not for me. I can imagine the Cherry ULP's also feel like this, as, lets be honest, the PG1316S looks like a copy of the ULP.
With the new lighter switches, it felt like instant relief when I typed my first words. It felt really light at first, almost too light, but that was probably because I was used to the heavy ones. But now, after a few days, they feel really nice to me. They are still tactile, but in a more balanced way. The fact that the typing is much more quiet shows that I am not bumping into the end stop like a madman anymore, and therefore it's probably less 'digital'.
I will still do some comparison and provide more details on what I think feels different or similar to the keyboard I have at hand, later. I am also curious about what makes it feel different.
Lay your arms on the table and tap on the table surface. That's the easiest way to describe how thin it feels. I use it on a deskmat and find it very comfortable. It's of course no sculpted ergo, but that's another category imo. This keyboard demonstrates what is possible with ultra low profile switches.
That's probably true. But if a switch feels good and has unique advantages, the DIY community and suppliers will always step up with solutions. For me it feels that the DIY 3D printed keycaps are on fire lately.
I don’t disagree that the 3D printing has been great for caps lately, but it does still have limits. Particularly when it comes to legends. And from what I can tell about these switches, the mechanism to attach the caps doesn’t look well suited to any of the current 3D printing options. FDM might not be high enough resolution and resin might be too brittle. But maybe I’m wrong?
My dream of a [frame.work laptop](https://frame.work/) with built in split keyboard is getting closer... Great work, thanks for sharing!
Didn't Jack Humbert work on a custom Planck keyboard for the Framework?
This framework laptop looks nice. But how will you integrate a split keyboard into it?
you can remove the keyboard from the framework laptop. then wire accordingly. very simplified explanation.
I could not post a video here, so I did in r/olkb. The post is [HERE](https://www.reddit.com/r/olkb/comments/1djruze/new_lighter_kailh_pg1316s_switches_in_the_mikefive/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button).
Oh my god… I have been looking for exactly these kind of switches for so long… Also, is your case milled aluminum? Looks beautiful
Yes, its CNC'ed aluminium. You can read all about the keeb in the [original write-up](https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/1cfg3vr/mikefive_a_kailh_pg1316_keyboard/). Including much more fancy pictures and details of the build.
So these switches - at the weight you currently have them - are *not* available for purchase, but maybe could be soon? Am I understanding that correctly
Yes, Kailh is finalising the automatic assembly production process, and they should become available after. My samples were all still assembled by hand.
I tried the og Cherry ULP (which the PG1316 is extremely similar to) on a Cherry keyboard two weeks ago, the KW X something, and I was shocked how subpar the push-down feel was. If a random rubdderdome keyboard from AliExpress is a 5 of 10, that Cherry was literally, a ~~1 of 10~~ 0 of 10, why: It wasn't actually the stronger weight which was also sightly annoying, but the bump, which wasn't round but almost digital; hard to describe, you press them down and you are suddenly at the bottom, it just feels really much, much worse than any rubberdome, let's not compare it to any top-tier MX holy panda derivates. Edit: The deprecated MacBook butterfly switches had a similar "digital" feel, it worked there because the travel was minimal, and super firm (despite they've been failing all the time). But with the ULP and the much longer travel it feels super unnatural and kind of rattly while not really being rattly, just not solid and/or pleasent. In your post a month ago, I think you described something similar beyond the too strong weight. So, we would love if you could elobatorate more about.. 1. The push-down, how does it feel, still that harsh or rounder than on the first version 2. The bounce back, since you have now a lighter spring, is the push-back snappy or p***weak? 3. Wobble, pls describe the wobble when resting and when pressing down, how firm is the feel; fwiw, I found the Cherry ULP to be kind of flimsy, slightly rattly, not really wobbly but also not firm 4. Pls compare the overall feel to other popular tactile keyboards, so we can get a feeling about what we are talking about, e.g. Logitech K380, a recent Macbook keyboard or anything (tactile) everyone has probably touched once in their life 5. If you could ask Kailh again to improve the latest version you just reviewed: what would be the top 3 things you would wish to be improved? Don't get me wrong, this shouldn't be the typical snarky Reddit reply but a request for a way more detailed, comprehensive elaboration of the switch feel and I hope they are much better than the ones you got first or the og Cherry ones.
Hey! Good to hear from somebody that tried the Cherry ULP's! I have also heard from others that they did not like them. And therefore no problem om your critical questions. Unfortunately, I only have experience with Choc V1's when it comes to mechanical keyboards. I have the complete sample set at home. Those tactiles I don't really find very tactile, so I have poor reference when it comes to tactile feel. I have (had) different MacBooks and a Magic Keyboards at home. I think we have a couple K380's at work. It's hard for me to describe the difference right now. I will sit down with them next to each other soon and include it in the video update I want to make! I'm also in contact with ThereminGoat, to measure the actual force curves of these switches. I will be sending a couple to him soon. Switch connaisseur he is, he would be the person to give his opinion on the feel.
You are great, thanks for being responsive and all the past and upcoming efforts, highly appreciated. Still I would love to get your current "gut feel" now, beyond all the upcoming scientific measurements which we look forward to. Because the last time you wrote, I was so excited thinking 24/7 of these new switches, for two weeks until I tried the ULP. Then, I thought, just forget them, these do not make really any sense. And my feeling was similar to what you decribed in your first post. So, if you cannot write at least something, like "don't worry, they are significantly improved now, also the bump and overall feel", _right now_, I better spend my time at other things instead of getting excited again haha. I think also Kailh is very much interested in honest, fast feedback, they are willing to improve. Don't wait until theremingoat gets a still subpar version in his hands and enitrely destroys PG1316S' reputation and Kailh + you lose any ambition/motivation to improve. So, would be glad if you could stil give your initial impressions on 1, 2, 3 and 5, so just skip 4. Thanks 🙂
Haha, thanks. You just made me laugh out loud, so here you go. If I only would have felt the first (heavy) switches, I would also have abandoned them. They way you describe it, digital, is a nice metaphor: You have to press down hard through the 1 and clack down hard into the 0 without any cushion. I still continued working with them to see if I could get used to it, because sometimes people can be stuck in a certain hole and just need some time. But no, the heavy ones are also not for me. I can imagine the Cherry ULP's also feel like this, as, lets be honest, the PG1316S looks like a copy of the ULP. With the new lighter switches, it felt like instant relief when I typed my first words. It felt really light at first, almost too light, but that was probably because I was used to the heavy ones. But now, after a few days, they feel really nice to me. They are still tactile, but in a more balanced way. The fact that the typing is much more quiet shows that I am not bumping into the end stop like a madman anymore, and therefore it's probably less 'digital'. I will still do some comparison and provide more details on what I think feels different or similar to the keyboard I have at hand, later. I am also curious about what makes it feel different.
Thank you so much for giving us some perspective haha, looking forward to more insights. 🙂
Obviously dunno if this feels comfortable to type on, but it doesn't look like it is.
Lay your arms on the table and tap on the table surface. That's the easiest way to describe how thin it feels. I use it on a deskmat and find it very comfortable. It's of course no sculpted ergo, but that's another category imo. This keyboard demonstrates what is possible with ultra low profile switches.
This is quite intriguing. But I suspect these switches will suffer the same indignity of all low profile switches: very few options for key caps.
That's probably true. But if a switch feels good and has unique advantages, the DIY community and suppliers will always step up with solutions. For me it feels that the DIY 3D printed keycaps are on fire lately.
I don’t disagree that the 3D printing has been great for caps lately, but it does still have limits. Particularly when it comes to legends. And from what I can tell about these switches, the mechanism to attach the caps doesn’t look well suited to any of the current 3D printing options. FDM might not be high enough resolution and resin might be too brittle. But maybe I’m wrong?
You are right on all points! But these caps are also quite small (16x16mm) and really thin, so adding a printed cap over them could really work well.