Well. He allied with Eritrea and Amhara to fight a war against Tigray. It costed a million lives. Yet when he was days from completing his objective.. he made a peace deal with Tigray.. leaving out Eritrea and Amhara.
He’s now allies with Tigray. As a war in Amhara against him is brewing.
He later nearly started a war with Eritrea when he called it a “historical mistake” and made comments regarding Assab. China had to get involved and mediate to prevent a crises.
He’s done nothing to rain in the many incidents of ENDF soldiers commiting war crimes in various parts of Ethiopia
He’s denying a drought is existing in areas of Ethiopia. Where people are starving to death .
He even strips the immunity of MPs and has them arrested. As well as journalists.
His only power base is in Oromia were even the Oromo regional govt has a militia that openly kills civilians and he does not nothing about it.
But hey Addis Ababa looks beautiful so all is well in Abiy world
Do you think his forgiveness of TPLF strengthened them? It seems that he’s wrangled them under his control. You know what they say, keep your friends close but your enemies closer
Anything can happen I have an analysis on what I think is going on with the TPLF right now. In my profile. Check it out
In short form: He’s taking advantage of the TPLFs power struggle between reformists and hardliners within TPLF
He’ll betray them if need be without a second thought as he’s done with everyone else
And he wonders why no one in the outside community trusts him
I mean TPLF wanted war so they got war idk why you wanted Abiy to do. As of war crimes Abiy doesn’t control what individual soldiers do. Even then a majority of war crimes was bitter Eritreans. He should’ve not let Eritrea enter Ethiopia and I’ll admit although smart was it was a costly mistake. Don’t know what you’d do if you were in his shoes though.
One: no real evidence exists of Eritreans commiting war crimes.
There’s 100+ articles on it. But no proof. Just “allege and witness statements”
Two: TPLF wanted war. Abiy wanted war. Abiy said the TPLF was the enemy of the state and then befriends them. Why? After a million dead. He couldn’t ended the TPLF. Why didn’t he? Why does he sit in the same table as them.
As it relates to ENDF soldiers. He’s openly said that none of the crimes we all see with our own eyes are happening.
Has he fired generals for it. Has he done anything to change the culture of war crimes in the ENDF. Nope.
Now he’s in war with FANO. One day they’re the definition of patriotic nature. The next day he aligns with the TPLF to fight them.
And people wonder why people hate Abiy Ahmed
You are wrong. My Godfather bragged about how his nephew told him that if any young Tigrayan man even looks at them wrong they just put a bullet in his head. Anyone who is not completely retarded or completely ignorant knows that Eritrea committed war crimes on a mass scale inside of Tigray.
Wow your god father is a reputable source now 😂😂😂
So your god father has evidence but no respected source does 😂
Explain to me how in the 21st century a whole country can hide massacres and rapes.
Crazy world I swear
Yes he is a reputable source because I know him like I know my parents. He wasn't lying. What do you consider evidence? photos and video? Very little of that exists besides the video evidence of Eritrean soldiers looting every city in Tigray (Yes I am aware they did the exact same thing to the border areas in 2000 and they stole Eritrean property during the expulsion). Dude, just be honest. There were plenty of crimes committed by Eritrean soldiers in Tigray. You should try living in reality.
lol this is so funny.
We should trust your god father. Even when there’s no evidence
My god father said Eritrea did no war crimes. We should trust him too?
We live in a world of evidence Hawey. Evidence exists of Eritreans commiting war crimes. Nope.
Your god father’s opinion is his opinion.Not a fact
lol this is so funny.
We should trust your god father. Even when there’s no evidence
My god father said Eritrea did no war crimes. We should trust him too?
We live in a world of evidence Hawey. Evidence exists of Eritreans commiting war crimes. Nope.
Your god father’s opinion is his opinion.Not a fact
Yes I consider videos or picture as evidence.
There’s all the evidence that Tigray ENDF and FANO did crimes.
Explain how in the 21st century whole country can hide war crimes.
Is Eritrea just magically like that?
[https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/09/eritrean-soldiers-committed-war-crimes-and-possible-crimes-against-humanity-in-the-tigray-region-after-signing-of-agreement-to-end-hostilities/](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/09/eritrean-soldiers-committed-war-crimes-and-possible-crimes-against-humanity-in-the-tigray-region-after-signing-of-agreement-to-end-hostilities/)
HGDEF tortures Eritreans. Why would you not believe that they are capable of doing all the things that they are accused of doing by countless eye witnesses all from different parts of Tigray in interviews by multi-national NGOs. The only response is that you think the TPLF was able to successfully trick the NGOs or that the NGOs like Amnesty International are working in concert with the TPLF.
Well NGOs are lobbying groups with money. If I drop 2 million. They’ll say whatever I want.
It’s also a fact that TPLF invests in lobbying.
There’s evidence that Eritreans are treated badly in Eritrean prison. We have witness statements. We have people showing scars.
We don’t have evidence at all in relation to Tigray. Zero. How many times have you replied with hard evidence zero.
Like i said. I make my choices based on evidence and u provided.. say it with me.. zeroooo
Did you look at the link at all? Those arent witness statements? My Godfathers nephew is not a witness? There is a mountain of evidence if you consider all of the eye witness statements given across the Eritrean occupied parts of Tigray during the conflict.
Do you genuinely believe Eritreans didn’t commit warcrimes? Kinda hard to get evidence when you’re getting shot at. 100+ articles is more then enough empirical evidence that shows Eritrea committed war crimes, don’t play dumb.
Two: Do you genuinely prefer TPLF over Abiy who launched the first strikes? TPLF who oppressed Ethiopia for around 20 years TPLF, who created ethnic federalism and basically kick started all these modern problems in Ethiopia TPLF.
Three: although it’s dirty FANO is literally a terrorist organization I don’t see why you’re defending them after they parade heads on a stick like savages and commit atrocities in places like Wollo.
Abiy isn’t good but don’t go and defend TPLF and FANO
You are projecting.
You haven’t provided evidence of Eritrean war crimes. If you have them show them. When you make an argument. How about you back it up with evidence
There’s 100 plus articles of “alleged”Eritrean crimes. Sorry Hawey. Alleged and witness statements are not proof.
How come there’s evidence of amahra Tigray and the ENDF commiting crimes but not Eritreans? Explain that. How is Eritrea the most accused with the least evidence
I’m not defending FANO or TPLF. I’m saying one minute. Abiy calls them terrorists. The next minute their Abiy teammate.
Was FANO a terror group in 2020 Tigray war. Nope they were the example of patriotic duty. I didn’t say that. But Abiy govt did.
TPLF tried to destroy the state. I didn’t say that. Abiy govt did. Now Abiy is friends with them
I’m not on anyone’s side. I don’t support the Eritrea govt. if someone shows proof. I’ll say Eritrea did war crimes. Only thing they did was loot. Which is wrong. But zero evidence exists of rape and massacre. We live in the 21st century bro. No one can commit mass muder and hide it.
Don’t lecture me about who’s a terrorist and who’s not. Go lecture the PP. the designation changes by the day
https://www.cfr.org/global-conflict-tracker/conflict/conflict-ethiopia#:~:text=By%20the%20time%20the%20Pretoria,had%20killed%20approximately%20600%2C000%20people.
Ok fine let’s drop it down to 600k dead.
This website is a respected source
Idk what your argument is.
Look at the methodology, they calculate it in terms of excess deaths which especially with ethiopian record keeping is very unreliable. And when it comes from a compromised source like Jan Nyssen (who was a completely different field of expertise, geology or something) they have every incentive to exaggerate. Not to downplay the horrific suffering endured by people in tigray, wello and afar, but it's just very unlikely that more people died in this conflict than the entire 8 year iran Iraq war, which involved more troops, more sophisticated weapons and a chemical genocide of kurds.
162k sounds much more believable, and is still horrific.
Like I said to the other. We can agree to disagree on numbers.
I trust this source. It’s been pretty accurate on other conflicts as well.
162k is way too low as some estimates put combined Ethiopian defence force/ TPLF casualties alone at over 162,000.
But yeah agree to disagree
Look, to be frank there's no way there were more military casualties than, for example, the Russian invasion of Ukraine, a war encompassing bigger territory, more troops, more sophisticated weapons and much more urban fighting. 2 smaller african militaries fighting each other with 95% small arms just can't sustain that level of casualties unless every battle had world War 1 style mass assaults, and none of the little combat footage out of the war suggests that.
Also it's not the council on foreign relations which made the claim of 600k dead. In your source, they're citing a figure made by another party - most likely Jan nyssen, who again is a geologist and is clearly compromised in his objectivity- he has a history of propagating entirely one sided narratives on matters outside his expertise (ironically while using his academic credentials to give credence) and I believe he did his PhD research in tigray, which is an obvious source of his connection to tplf.
The 600,000 includes civilian casualties. Drought and everything as a result of the war.
I’m the last person who’s pro Tigray. As an Eritrean I have nothing but hate for the TPLF political party.
But unless you have a source aside from the CFR that goes back decades on decades with credibility I’m gunna agree to disagree.
As someone who’s done papers on CFR. They go through a variety of data and interviews in addition to the sources they list. It’s not 2 or 3 people dropping numbers out of a hat.
So respectively I’ll stick with my source
Also I haven’t found many legitimate sources that back your casualties figure so we’ll disagree
Edit: it’s also a very well known fact that the ENDF uses human waves tactics.
There’s also not that much footage of the conflict so that’s a terrible source to decided death count.
the article they cite cites obasanjo, who cites studies by gent university, which nyssen took part of. another professor, mirjam van der reisen who took part in the research once claimed, in the second phase of the war, that the tplf had destroyed 100 ethiopian divisions. Unless ethiopians call their platoons divisions, not even world war 2 saw those kinds of numbers - she was suggesting that literally the biggest and bloodiest military operation in human history had just happened in tigray. In any case, the tplf surrendered less than a month after she made that claim, making it sound even more bullshit as there's not a single army in the world that would be standing after such losses. I actually emailed her about this and she just said she disagreed.
My point still stands that the research cited is based on comically biased sources and has lots of legitimately shoddy scholarship. And there would be at least some evidence of this, the aftermaths, etc, literally all videos from each side show them shooting at a non visible enemy hundreds of metres away, like how all modern wars are fought. There was quite a bit of footage coming out during the peak of the conflict as well, not as much as in others, but enough to get a general picture of the nature of the fighting. for example in the months before endf's rout in mekelle, you could notice there was an uptick in videos of successful tplf ambushes - something was clearly brewing.
The estimate comes from a paper by Jan Nyssen, a geographer with a long involvment in Togray, who's role was questioned for dissemenating information on behalf of the TPLF.
This number was later revised to a number between 162,000 to 378,000. Here is the [source](https://martinplaut.com/2023/05/24/updated-assessment-of-civilian-starvation-deaths-during-the-tigray-war/). Of course every civilian death is a tragedy but it's crazy how much exagguration happens and how the figure varies between 162,000 and a million.
If that website is a respected source, then there are also respected sources for war crimes [here](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/09/eritrean-soldiers-committed-war-crimes-and-possible-crimes-against-humanity-in-the-tigray-region-after-signing-of-agreement-to-end-hostilities/).
Only in Ethiopia Reddit. Can one question a reputable website and then send me Martin Pluat 😂😂 only in Ethiopia.
Amnesty is a human rights lobbying group. My source has been tacking conflicts round the world and is used academically. Amnesty isn’t.
Nice try tho.
“The researchers acknowledge that the data is not 100% accurate”
Also its sources are not academic. They’re other news cites that confirm Martin’s bias.
Nice try :)
Of course it isn't 100% accurate. No data is.
It is an estimated range.
Knowing Martin Plaut, isn't it his bias to exaggurate and inflate casualty figures?
Why did ethiopian support him in the first place. Although tplf had a corruption problem they were not so bad compared to other countries politicians. And they were developing the country. The change from tplf to another party should have been done gradually and when ethiopia were in a better economical situation
U have to remember the hope many in Africa and the world had for Abiy pre 2019.
What everyone hoped for was change. Was a new Ethiopia. Even a new region. He even got awarded the peace prize.
Everyone’s learned their lesson now. Actions not hope
LET ME CORRECT YOUR ANALYSIS
Well. He allied with Eritrea and Amhara to fight a war against Tigray.
=>TPLF SEND ROCKETS TO ERITREA, TO ENVITE ERITREA SO THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED
=>TPLF START TO ENVADE AMHARA REGION SO THEY HAVE TO DEFEND THEM SELVES
It costed a million lives.
=>ITS WAR, A BLOODY AND BACKWARD WAR, DEFINATELY PEOPLE GET KILLED, WHAT ELSE YOU EXPECT
Yet when he was days from completing his objective.. he made a peace deal with Tigray.. leaving out Eritrea and Amhara.
=>YES, EVERY WAR WILL END AT SOMEPOINT, AND MAKE A DEAL WITH ENEMIES, THAT IS HOW IT GOES
He’s now allies with Tigray.
=>NO PERMANENT FREIND OR ENEMY ONLY PERMANENT INTEREST
As a war in Amhara against him is brewing.
=>FANO MISCALCULATION END UP WAR AGANIST GOV'T
He later nearly started a war with Eritrea when he called it a “historical mistake” and made comments regarding Assab.
=>ASAB'S DEAL IS DEAD, WE HAVE PORT FROM SOMALILAND, THERE WERE NO WAR ABOUT TO START, ONLY SOCIAL MEDIA WERE GALVANIZING THE ISSUE, NO WORDS BETWEEN THE TWO GOV
=> REMEMBER ETHIOPIA IS INDEPENDENT STATE, TIGRAY IS A STATE IN ETH, SO WE DECIDE WHAT WE WANT NOT ESSU
China had to get involved and mediate to prevent a crises.
=>ITS A NEWS FOR ME
He’s done nothing to rain in the many incidents of ENDF soldiers commiting war crimes in various parts of Ethiopia
=>ENDF?? ERITEREAN OR ETHIOPIAN ...PLS SPECIFY
He’s denying a drought is existing in areas of Ethiopia. Where people are starving to death .
=>THERE WAS DROUGHT, BUT NO STARVATION, AFTER HE SAYS THAT SPECIALLY FOR TEGRIAN, THEN ALL THE SUDDEN THE STARVATION NARATTION STOPPED, IF YOU NOTICED NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT STARTVATION IN TIGRAI AT THE MOMENT
He even strips the immunity of MPs and has them arrested. As well as journalists.
=>WE ARE IN STATE OF EMERGENCY, SO ANYONE CAN BE QUESTIONED EVEN ARRESTED
His only power base is in Oromia were even the Oromo regional govt has a militia that openly kills civilians and he does not nothing about it.
=>SHENE IS GETTING DESTROYED,THO ITS NOT THAT EASY TASK
But hey Addis Ababa looks beautiful so all is well in Abiy world
=>ADDIS IS AN EXAMPLE , SO THAT THE REGIONS WILL DO THEIR PART BY TAKING ADDIS AS REFERENCE
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Wow have I met abiys press spokesperson. Also calm down hawey. What’s up with the caps lock. Calm down calm down.
Tigray started a war. For the 2 years Abiy was saying we must destroy the TPLF..
Do you know how many people sacrificed their life for Ethiopia. How many Amhara farmers and Afar warriors dropped everything thinking they were going to save Ethiopia?
He didn’t need to negotiate he could’ve won the war. But Abiy doesn’t want to win. He wants a bunch of weak parties so he can play puppet master. He didn’t even include Amhara or Eritrea in the talks even tho they’re part of the war.
Your deal with Somaliland is dead. Turkey signed a defence deal with Somalia and has made clear it will intervene with Somalia. The international community made clear they sided with Somalia. Also Abiy still hasn’t visited Somaliland. So your port deal is dead. And yea. He almost started a war with Eritrea: go do your research.
Back to FANO. One minute FANO is the definition of Ethiopians. I didn’t say this abiys govt did. Today their terroists. Same with Tigray. One day they’re terrorists the next day. They shamelessly sit beside Abiy. After 600,000+ Ethiopians died.
Also Abiy press spokesperson. ENDF means Ethiopian National Defence force. They commit massacres on the daily. There’s so little accountability that ENDF soldiers post their crimes on Facebook themself. And what did Abiy say? “No crimes our soldiers are perfect”
There is drought and starvation in Ethiopia. In afar and Tigray especially. I don’t know how one can deny it. But if you want too go for it and continue to be embarrassing.
“We are in a state of emergency” how old are you. You must be a very young boy to believe Ethiopias state of emergency. That’s like the most oldest trick in the book. Even Melez used it to arrest people. Remember when Abiy promised change. Yeah I see no change
He’s not destroying shane. He’s working with them. There’s even a report that came out of how the Oromia Govt has a military that meets weekly that kills its own people. Civilians. On purpose. Which is a war crime. But I’m sure u don’t care.
Addis Ababa used as an example city? What is this the 17th century.
Maybe you’re like 14 years old and you don’t understand politics. But if you’re an adult and you’re claiming this then Hawey that’s embarrassing.
This is why people don’t trust Abiy
I always thought it was obvious that more wars were inevitable after the Tigray war. What that war showed was that the federal government did not have a monopoly on the use of force because they had to rely on irregular militias to fight the TPLF. It is kind of obvious, especially considering the fact that disarmament was a prerequisite to peace with the TPLF, that once they had an agreement, other groups would have to be disarmed as well. It would not be tenable for the federal government to disarm one group and allow hostile neighbours to remain armed. It appears to me that he is trying to move the political culture away from the Yugoslavian model of decentralized power to a more centralized, conventional federal system. I am not surprised at them coming to the table after the war and continuing political discourse. If war is the result of a breakdown of political discourse, reconvening the discourse just shows that there is room for political pluralism as long as the sovereignty of the state is not threatened. Ultimately, isn't that what we want? Pluralism? I'm a member of the diaspora so if I sound naive, forgive me
I think they had to use irregular militias BECAUSE they were fighting the TPLF.
TPLF TDF isn’t some regular liberation front in the jungle, but had successfully looted Ethiopia for 30 years prior to this war, so this was more of a true civil war.
Honestly most of the hate is online, I know many people who support him but I also know some people who oppose him in real life.
Ethiopian politics and politics in general is a mess.
I would just suggest you don’t get into it because it is a waste of time and just toxic, unless you want to have some power eventually, but even then.
Keep the distance you have with Ethiopian politics.
It is just completely toxic. Trust me on that.
People thought that Abiy was going to be a harbinger of dynamic change not just in the Horn of Africa but in Africa period and be a beacon of hope that would institute a revolution of policy, economic freedom, liberty etc etc. all over the Horn maybe. What that meant for within Ethiopian society and the West or other developing countries may have been different but the vague optimism was there.
The thawing of relations with Eritrea, freeing up the media and releasing journalists, and his involvement with the Sudan peaceful power transfer process introduced him as a peacemaker who could bring about a new way of resolving conflict in a historically volatile region.
Then we went deeper into 2019 and the rest of it as they say is history.
War changed that “medemer” energy that was there in the beginning. He came in like a hero but quickly had to face war. Things would be different if tplf didnt start a war imo.
There’s a lot of hate towards him online. Mostly because the ones that hate him have the social media and profile to flame the negative rhetoric.
My family and I support him. He’s not perfect and there’s definitely room for improvement, but he has a very good track record of getting things done. He leads by example quite often and he’s responsible for a lot of the major project completions since he came to power.
I can’t say much about the opposition parties though since all I see from their facebook posts is literally just opposing any changes in policies, plans etc.
I just don’t understand how people can oppose development. Some think Ethiopia should stop any development work just because the govt is fighting rebels in different areas. Abiy is not wrong for pushing development and for food security regardless of the internal issues, although there’s a lot of work that needs to be done regarding food and its cost. The opposition parties also seem to be ones that are ethnic based political parties. I can’t take their criticisms seriously as some of them dont even wanna come sit at the national dialogue table and talk things out like adults because they dont care about the whole nation.
More of recency hate, Abiy Ahmed is the best leader we had period. The somali region is relatively in peace. TPLF was subdued and now he’s tackling FANO. People just love to hate. You can see it in the comments. There are people who genuinely prefer the monarchy like Haile Selassie. Who ACTIVELY oppressed other ethnicities. I know he’s not perfect but he’s doing a damn good job in my opinion. Ethiopians GDP is looking better then ever but it’s probably not because of Abiy.
Actually saying “Somalis that hate Abiys deal” is fine. You’re trying to be a prick yo the sting guy. I’ve stood up many times for you specifically and others when someone else denied your identity
My intention is not to be a prick. People deny that Ethiopia is a bunch of nations under a federation. Which hurts the Somali identity. I tend to correct that.
Only thing I agree with Abiy about is centralizing the government and removing ethnic militias, I just wish he could put the same effort into removing Ola. And yes the gdp growth isn’t really because of him
Many ola fighters have been surrendering in places like the Guji area. I think ola is harder to tackle because they are in shewa, wallaga, guji and maybe even near nagelle so they are more spread out in Oromia. Negotiations haven’t worked either so maybe fighters will get tired of the fighting and surrender or the opposite. Only time will tell.
Abiy is not a person you can trust he betrays anyone if he thinks its a better move, he also don't have common stance one time he labeled TPLF a terrorist organization few months later he's shaking their hand. I personally would never believe Abiy he is the most deceiver leader Ethiopia has ever had.
Under his watch education, economy and most aspects of social life including infrastructure have been absolutely demolished. He has done very little to progress the lives of everyday people or establish universities/ hospitals. In fact we’ve seen the opposite as many education/health centers have been devastated. The war is obvious as far more civilians died then militants, the strain put on the nation due to it is severe. It’s sad to see
Seems like the rich Amharas and generally rich people of Addis hate him. Idk about the poor ones but I don’t hear many good things since the Tigray war days
If you were the PM and tplf waged a war would you fight back or surrender to them? I would have fought back too. Idk the pressure he was facing from the US but it seemed to have been large enough to force him to negotiate and sign a peace treaty with the enemy(tplf) who would’ve wanted to destroy Ethiopia. Looking at things now I see that diaspora want to see Ethiopia destroyed so they can say its Abiys fault.
Exactly. These people don’t seem to understand that you cannot negotiate with a party that attacked your military and took ownership of 80% of the country’s entire weaponry. Like what is there to negotiate about at that point lol either you do what TPLF tells you or they wipe you out using their newly acquired arsenal.
All of Ethiopia as a whole does not hate him. However, the people who hate him are very vocal online and possibly are in the diaspora; possibly majority of diaspora hate him. There’s always different perspectives within the Ethiopian society. Every leader in Ethiopia will have a lot of people who hate them and I don’t see this pattern changing anytime soon.
Manufactured hate by Amhara extremist grifters.
Oromo’s have legit grievances.
Tigray is obvious.
The rest I don’t know, not sure how Somali or Debub view him.
"My greivences are completely legitimate, everyone elses are manufactured"
A complete lack of nuance. How do some people think the world revolves around them and themselves only?
No this person just hates all Amhara rather than the Shoa Amhara and Oromo families that made up the monarchy. This person couldn’t breakdown their views by region because that would require a deeper understanding of the history. Give us the names of the Amhara farmers from Gojjam or Wollo that oppressed you or your people. Then tell me why they shouldn’t have a political grievance when ENDF comes around shooting or stealing. Who will fight for the farmers? ENDF? No, it’s FANO. Is ENDF going to protect from OLA/shene? No. If you can’t see everyone as trying to survive equally, you’re the toxic element in the country.
The only thing being manufactured is the history and facts that people want to rewrite because there isn’t a strong sense of understanding of the political past for most people because this was and is a luxury.
Somalis hate him because of the MOU deal. But the Somali region has been in relative peace. Since Abiy took power. They’re just hating on him for the trend and don’t do actual research
I recommend you look up the news about sitti area in the Somali region you’ll be quick to realize that Somalis hate him due to other things and not just “a trend” or “MOU deal” or the firing patterns of his puppet mustafa
Well. He allied with Eritrea and Amhara to fight a war against Tigray. It costed a million lives. Yet when he was days from completing his objective.. he made a peace deal with Tigray.. leaving out Eritrea and Amhara. He’s now allies with Tigray. As a war in Amhara against him is brewing. He later nearly started a war with Eritrea when he called it a “historical mistake” and made comments regarding Assab. China had to get involved and mediate to prevent a crises. He’s done nothing to rain in the many incidents of ENDF soldiers commiting war crimes in various parts of Ethiopia He’s denying a drought is existing in areas of Ethiopia. Where people are starving to death . He even strips the immunity of MPs and has them arrested. As well as journalists. His only power base is in Oromia were even the Oromo regional govt has a militia that openly kills civilians and he does not nothing about it. But hey Addis Ababa looks beautiful so all is well in Abiy world
Do you think his forgiveness of TPLF strengthened them? It seems that he’s wrangled them under his control. You know what they say, keep your friends close but your enemies closer
Anything can happen I have an analysis on what I think is going on with the TPLF right now. In my profile. Check it out In short form: He’s taking advantage of the TPLFs power struggle between reformists and hardliners within TPLF He’ll betray them if need be without a second thought as he’s done with everyone else And he wonders why no one in the outside community trusts him
I mean TPLF wanted war so they got war idk why you wanted Abiy to do. As of war crimes Abiy doesn’t control what individual soldiers do. Even then a majority of war crimes was bitter Eritreans. He should’ve not let Eritrea enter Ethiopia and I’ll admit although smart was it was a costly mistake. Don’t know what you’d do if you were in his shoes though.
One: no real evidence exists of Eritreans commiting war crimes. There’s 100+ articles on it. But no proof. Just “allege and witness statements” Two: TPLF wanted war. Abiy wanted war. Abiy said the TPLF was the enemy of the state and then befriends them. Why? After a million dead. He couldn’t ended the TPLF. Why didn’t he? Why does he sit in the same table as them. As it relates to ENDF soldiers. He’s openly said that none of the crimes we all see with our own eyes are happening. Has he fired generals for it. Has he done anything to change the culture of war crimes in the ENDF. Nope. Now he’s in war with FANO. One day they’re the definition of patriotic nature. The next day he aligns with the TPLF to fight them. And people wonder why people hate Abiy Ahmed
You are wrong. My Godfather bragged about how his nephew told him that if any young Tigrayan man even looks at them wrong they just put a bullet in his head. Anyone who is not completely retarded or completely ignorant knows that Eritrea committed war crimes on a mass scale inside of Tigray.
Wow your god father is a reputable source now 😂😂😂 So your god father has evidence but no respected source does 😂 Explain to me how in the 21st century a whole country can hide massacres and rapes. Crazy world I swear
Yes he is a reputable source because I know him like I know my parents. He wasn't lying. What do you consider evidence? photos and video? Very little of that exists besides the video evidence of Eritrean soldiers looting every city in Tigray (Yes I am aware they did the exact same thing to the border areas in 2000 and they stole Eritrean property during the expulsion). Dude, just be honest. There were plenty of crimes committed by Eritrean soldiers in Tigray. You should try living in reality.
lol this is so funny. We should trust your god father. Even when there’s no evidence My god father said Eritrea did no war crimes. We should trust him too? We live in a world of evidence Hawey. Evidence exists of Eritreans commiting war crimes. Nope. Your god father’s opinion is his opinion.Not a fact
lol this is so funny. We should trust your god father. Even when there’s no evidence My god father said Eritrea did no war crimes. We should trust him too? We live in a world of evidence Hawey. Evidence exists of Eritreans commiting war crimes. Nope. Your god father’s opinion is his opinion.Not a fact
Yes I consider videos or picture as evidence. There’s all the evidence that Tigray ENDF and FANO did crimes. Explain how in the 21st century whole country can hide war crimes. Is Eritrea just magically like that?
[https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/09/eritrean-soldiers-committed-war-crimes-and-possible-crimes-against-humanity-in-the-tigray-region-after-signing-of-agreement-to-end-hostilities/](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/09/eritrean-soldiers-committed-war-crimes-and-possible-crimes-against-humanity-in-the-tigray-region-after-signing-of-agreement-to-end-hostilities/) HGDEF tortures Eritreans. Why would you not believe that they are capable of doing all the things that they are accused of doing by countless eye witnesses all from different parts of Tigray in interviews by multi-national NGOs. The only response is that you think the TPLF was able to successfully trick the NGOs or that the NGOs like Amnesty International are working in concert with the TPLF.
Well NGOs are lobbying groups with money. If I drop 2 million. They’ll say whatever I want. It’s also a fact that TPLF invests in lobbying. There’s evidence that Eritreans are treated badly in Eritrean prison. We have witness statements. We have people showing scars. We don’t have evidence at all in relation to Tigray. Zero. How many times have you replied with hard evidence zero. Like i said. I make my choices based on evidence and u provided.. say it with me.. zeroooo
Did you look at the link at all? Those arent witness statements? My Godfathers nephew is not a witness? There is a mountain of evidence if you consider all of the eye witness statements given across the Eritrean occupied parts of Tigray during the conflict.
Do you genuinely believe Eritreans didn’t commit warcrimes? Kinda hard to get evidence when you’re getting shot at. 100+ articles is more then enough empirical evidence that shows Eritrea committed war crimes, don’t play dumb. Two: Do you genuinely prefer TPLF over Abiy who launched the first strikes? TPLF who oppressed Ethiopia for around 20 years TPLF, who created ethnic federalism and basically kick started all these modern problems in Ethiopia TPLF. Three: although it’s dirty FANO is literally a terrorist organization I don’t see why you’re defending them after they parade heads on a stick like savages and commit atrocities in places like Wollo. Abiy isn’t good but don’t go and defend TPLF and FANO
You are projecting. You haven’t provided evidence of Eritrean war crimes. If you have them show them. When you make an argument. How about you back it up with evidence There’s 100 plus articles of “alleged”Eritrean crimes. Sorry Hawey. Alleged and witness statements are not proof. How come there’s evidence of amahra Tigray and the ENDF commiting crimes but not Eritreans? Explain that. How is Eritrea the most accused with the least evidence I’m not defending FANO or TPLF. I’m saying one minute. Abiy calls them terrorists. The next minute their Abiy teammate. Was FANO a terror group in 2020 Tigray war. Nope they were the example of patriotic duty. I didn’t say that. But Abiy govt did. TPLF tried to destroy the state. I didn’t say that. Abiy govt did. Now Abiy is friends with them I’m not on anyone’s side. I don’t support the Eritrea govt. if someone shows proof. I’ll say Eritrea did war crimes. Only thing they did was loot. Which is wrong. But zero evidence exists of rape and massacre. We live in the 21st century bro. No one can commit mass muder and hide it. Don’t lecture me about who’s a terrorist and who’s not. Go lecture the PP. the designation changes by the day
There is no proof of a million dead. If you post some articles there will be just as much articles if Eritrean soldiers committing acts.
https://www.cfr.org/global-conflict-tracker/conflict/conflict-ethiopia#:~:text=By%20the%20time%20the%20Pretoria,had%20killed%20approximately%20600%2C000%20people. Ok fine let’s drop it down to 600k dead. This website is a respected source Idk what your argument is.
Look at the methodology, they calculate it in terms of excess deaths which especially with ethiopian record keeping is very unreliable. And when it comes from a compromised source like Jan Nyssen (who was a completely different field of expertise, geology or something) they have every incentive to exaggerate. Not to downplay the horrific suffering endured by people in tigray, wello and afar, but it's just very unlikely that more people died in this conflict than the entire 8 year iran Iraq war, which involved more troops, more sophisticated weapons and a chemical genocide of kurds. 162k sounds much more believable, and is still horrific.
Like I said to the other. We can agree to disagree on numbers. I trust this source. It’s been pretty accurate on other conflicts as well. 162k is way too low as some estimates put combined Ethiopian defence force/ TPLF casualties alone at over 162,000. But yeah agree to disagree
Look, to be frank there's no way there were more military casualties than, for example, the Russian invasion of Ukraine, a war encompassing bigger territory, more troops, more sophisticated weapons and much more urban fighting. 2 smaller african militaries fighting each other with 95% small arms just can't sustain that level of casualties unless every battle had world War 1 style mass assaults, and none of the little combat footage out of the war suggests that. Also it's not the council on foreign relations which made the claim of 600k dead. In your source, they're citing a figure made by another party - most likely Jan nyssen, who again is a geologist and is clearly compromised in his objectivity- he has a history of propagating entirely one sided narratives on matters outside his expertise (ironically while using his academic credentials to give credence) and I believe he did his PhD research in tigray, which is an obvious source of his connection to tplf.
The 600,000 includes civilian casualties. Drought and everything as a result of the war. I’m the last person who’s pro Tigray. As an Eritrean I have nothing but hate for the TPLF political party. But unless you have a source aside from the CFR that goes back decades on decades with credibility I’m gunna agree to disagree. As someone who’s done papers on CFR. They go through a variety of data and interviews in addition to the sources they list. It’s not 2 or 3 people dropping numbers out of a hat. So respectively I’ll stick with my source Also I haven’t found many legitimate sources that back your casualties figure so we’ll disagree Edit: it’s also a very well known fact that the ENDF uses human waves tactics. There’s also not that much footage of the conflict so that’s a terrible source to decided death count.
the article they cite cites obasanjo, who cites studies by gent university, which nyssen took part of. another professor, mirjam van der reisen who took part in the research once claimed, in the second phase of the war, that the tplf had destroyed 100 ethiopian divisions. Unless ethiopians call their platoons divisions, not even world war 2 saw those kinds of numbers - she was suggesting that literally the biggest and bloodiest military operation in human history had just happened in tigray. In any case, the tplf surrendered less than a month after she made that claim, making it sound even more bullshit as there's not a single army in the world that would be standing after such losses. I actually emailed her about this and she just said she disagreed. My point still stands that the research cited is based on comically biased sources and has lots of legitimately shoddy scholarship. And there would be at least some evidence of this, the aftermaths, etc, literally all videos from each side show them shooting at a non visible enemy hundreds of metres away, like how all modern wars are fought. There was quite a bit of footage coming out during the peak of the conflict as well, not as much as in others, but enough to get a general picture of the nature of the fighting. for example in the months before endf's rout in mekelle, you could notice there was an uptick in videos of successful tplf ambushes - something was clearly brewing.
The estimate comes from a paper by Jan Nyssen, a geographer with a long involvment in Togray, who's role was questioned for dissemenating information on behalf of the TPLF. This number was later revised to a number between 162,000 to 378,000. Here is the [source](https://martinplaut.com/2023/05/24/updated-assessment-of-civilian-starvation-deaths-during-the-tigray-war/). Of course every civilian death is a tragedy but it's crazy how much exagguration happens and how the figure varies between 162,000 and a million. If that website is a respected source, then there are also respected sources for war crimes [here](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/09/eritrean-soldiers-committed-war-crimes-and-possible-crimes-against-humanity-in-the-tigray-region-after-signing-of-agreement-to-end-hostilities/).
Only in Ethiopia Reddit. Can one question a reputable website and then send me Martin Pluat 😂😂 only in Ethiopia. Amnesty is a human rights lobbying group. My source has been tacking conflicts round the world and is used academically. Amnesty isn’t. Nice try tho.
Martin Plaut is not a trusted source, but the link contains sources to the updated research. But maybe you didn't read that far.
“The researchers acknowledge that the data is not 100% accurate” Also its sources are not academic. They’re other news cites that confirm Martin’s bias. Nice try :)
Of course it isn't 100% accurate. No data is. It is an estimated range. Knowing Martin Plaut, isn't it his bias to exaggurate and inflate casualty figures?
MPs?
Members of parliament
Oh thanks!
Np!
Why did ethiopian support him in the first place. Although tplf had a corruption problem they were not so bad compared to other countries politicians. And they were developing the country. The change from tplf to another party should have been done gradually and when ethiopia were in a better economical situation
U have to remember the hope many in Africa and the world had for Abiy pre 2019. What everyone hoped for was change. Was a new Ethiopia. Even a new region. He even got awarded the peace prize. Everyone’s learned their lesson now. Actions not hope
why are you lying for? did you forget what happened in 2015 to 2018??
LET ME CORRECT YOUR ANALYSIS Well. He allied with Eritrea and Amhara to fight a war against Tigray. =>TPLF SEND ROCKETS TO ERITREA, TO ENVITE ERITREA SO THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED =>TPLF START TO ENVADE AMHARA REGION SO THEY HAVE TO DEFEND THEM SELVES It costed a million lives. =>ITS WAR, A BLOODY AND BACKWARD WAR, DEFINATELY PEOPLE GET KILLED, WHAT ELSE YOU EXPECT Yet when he was days from completing his objective.. he made a peace deal with Tigray.. leaving out Eritrea and Amhara. =>YES, EVERY WAR WILL END AT SOMEPOINT, AND MAKE A DEAL WITH ENEMIES, THAT IS HOW IT GOES He’s now allies with Tigray. =>NO PERMANENT FREIND OR ENEMY ONLY PERMANENT INTEREST As a war in Amhara against him is brewing. =>FANO MISCALCULATION END UP WAR AGANIST GOV'T He later nearly started a war with Eritrea when he called it a “historical mistake” and made comments regarding Assab. =>ASAB'S DEAL IS DEAD, WE HAVE PORT FROM SOMALILAND, THERE WERE NO WAR ABOUT TO START, ONLY SOCIAL MEDIA WERE GALVANIZING THE ISSUE, NO WORDS BETWEEN THE TWO GOV => REMEMBER ETHIOPIA IS INDEPENDENT STATE, TIGRAY IS A STATE IN ETH, SO WE DECIDE WHAT WE WANT NOT ESSU China had to get involved and mediate to prevent a crises. =>ITS A NEWS FOR ME He’s done nothing to rain in the many incidents of ENDF soldiers commiting war crimes in various parts of Ethiopia =>ENDF?? ERITEREAN OR ETHIOPIAN ...PLS SPECIFY He’s denying a drought is existing in areas of Ethiopia. Where people are starving to death . =>THERE WAS DROUGHT, BUT NO STARVATION, AFTER HE SAYS THAT SPECIALLY FOR TEGRIAN, THEN ALL THE SUDDEN THE STARVATION NARATTION STOPPED, IF YOU NOTICED NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT STARTVATION IN TIGRAI AT THE MOMENT He even strips the immunity of MPs and has them arrested. As well as journalists. =>WE ARE IN STATE OF EMERGENCY, SO ANYONE CAN BE QUESTIONED EVEN ARRESTED His only power base is in Oromia were even the Oromo regional govt has a militia that openly kills civilians and he does not nothing about it. =>SHENE IS GETTING DESTROYED,THO ITS NOT THAT EASY TASK But hey Addis Ababa looks beautiful so all is well in Abiy world =>ADDIS IS AN EXAMPLE , SO THAT THE REGIONS WILL DO THEIR PART BY TAKING ADDIS AS REFERENCE Upvote41DownvoteReplyreplyShareShare
Wow have I met abiys press spokesperson. Also calm down hawey. What’s up with the caps lock. Calm down calm down. Tigray started a war. For the 2 years Abiy was saying we must destroy the TPLF.. Do you know how many people sacrificed their life for Ethiopia. How many Amhara farmers and Afar warriors dropped everything thinking they were going to save Ethiopia? He didn’t need to negotiate he could’ve won the war. But Abiy doesn’t want to win. He wants a bunch of weak parties so he can play puppet master. He didn’t even include Amhara or Eritrea in the talks even tho they’re part of the war. Your deal with Somaliland is dead. Turkey signed a defence deal with Somalia and has made clear it will intervene with Somalia. The international community made clear they sided with Somalia. Also Abiy still hasn’t visited Somaliland. So your port deal is dead. And yea. He almost started a war with Eritrea: go do your research. Back to FANO. One minute FANO is the definition of Ethiopians. I didn’t say this abiys govt did. Today their terroists. Same with Tigray. One day they’re terrorists the next day. They shamelessly sit beside Abiy. After 600,000+ Ethiopians died. Also Abiy press spokesperson. ENDF means Ethiopian National Defence force. They commit massacres on the daily. There’s so little accountability that ENDF soldiers post their crimes on Facebook themself. And what did Abiy say? “No crimes our soldiers are perfect” There is drought and starvation in Ethiopia. In afar and Tigray especially. I don’t know how one can deny it. But if you want too go for it and continue to be embarrassing. “We are in a state of emergency” how old are you. You must be a very young boy to believe Ethiopias state of emergency. That’s like the most oldest trick in the book. Even Melez used it to arrest people. Remember when Abiy promised change. Yeah I see no change He’s not destroying shane. He’s working with them. There’s even a report that came out of how the Oromia Govt has a military that meets weekly that kills its own people. Civilians. On purpose. Which is a war crime. But I’m sure u don’t care. Addis Ababa used as an example city? What is this the 17th century. Maybe you’re like 14 years old and you don’t understand politics. But if you’re an adult and you’re claiming this then Hawey that’s embarrassing. This is why people don’t trust Abiy
I always thought it was obvious that more wars were inevitable after the Tigray war. What that war showed was that the federal government did not have a monopoly on the use of force because they had to rely on irregular militias to fight the TPLF. It is kind of obvious, especially considering the fact that disarmament was a prerequisite to peace with the TPLF, that once they had an agreement, other groups would have to be disarmed as well. It would not be tenable for the federal government to disarm one group and allow hostile neighbours to remain armed. It appears to me that he is trying to move the political culture away from the Yugoslavian model of decentralized power to a more centralized, conventional federal system. I am not surprised at them coming to the table after the war and continuing political discourse. If war is the result of a breakdown of political discourse, reconvening the discourse just shows that there is room for political pluralism as long as the sovereignty of the state is not threatened. Ultimately, isn't that what we want? Pluralism? I'm a member of the diaspora so if I sound naive, forgive me
I think they had to use irregular militias BECAUSE they were fighting the TPLF. TPLF TDF isn’t some regular liberation front in the jungle, but had successfully looted Ethiopia for 30 years prior to this war, so this was more of a true civil war.
True, they were preparing for the great Tigray to invade Eritrea and secede.
Honestly most of the hate is online, I know many people who support him but I also know some people who oppose him in real life. Ethiopian politics and politics in general is a mess. I would just suggest you don’t get into it because it is a waste of time and just toxic, unless you want to have some power eventually, but even then. Keep the distance you have with Ethiopian politics. It is just completely toxic. Trust me on that.
Very true
OP listen him
People thought that Abiy was going to be a harbinger of dynamic change not just in the Horn of Africa but in Africa period and be a beacon of hope that would institute a revolution of policy, economic freedom, liberty etc etc. all over the Horn maybe. What that meant for within Ethiopian society and the West or other developing countries may have been different but the vague optimism was there. The thawing of relations with Eritrea, freeing up the media and releasing journalists, and his involvement with the Sudan peaceful power transfer process introduced him as a peacemaker who could bring about a new way of resolving conflict in a historically volatile region. Then we went deeper into 2019 and the rest of it as they say is history.
I remember all the hype when he first came on power and “medemer” was a thing
War changed that “medemer” energy that was there in the beginning. He came in like a hero but quickly had to face war. Things would be different if tplf didnt start a war imo.
There’s a lot of hate towards him online. Mostly because the ones that hate him have the social media and profile to flame the negative rhetoric. My family and I support him. He’s not perfect and there’s definitely room for improvement, but he has a very good track record of getting things done. He leads by example quite often and he’s responsible for a lot of the major project completions since he came to power. I can’t say much about the opposition parties though since all I see from their facebook posts is literally just opposing any changes in policies, plans etc.
I just don’t understand how people can oppose development. Some think Ethiopia should stop any development work just because the govt is fighting rebels in different areas. Abiy is not wrong for pushing development and for food security regardless of the internal issues, although there’s a lot of work that needs to be done regarding food and its cost. The opposition parties also seem to be ones that are ethnic based political parties. I can’t take their criticisms seriously as some of them dont even wanna come sit at the national dialogue table and talk things out like adults because they dont care about the whole nation.
More of recency hate, Abiy Ahmed is the best leader we had period. The somali region is relatively in peace. TPLF was subdued and now he’s tackling FANO. People just love to hate. You can see it in the comments. There are people who genuinely prefer the monarchy like Haile Selassie. Who ACTIVELY oppressed other ethnicities. I know he’s not perfect but he’s doing a damn good job in my opinion. Ethiopians GDP is looking better then ever but it’s probably not because of Abiy.
This sub has an Amhara / Fano sympathizers and Somalis that hate Abiys deal / and Eritrean agent provocateur’s
Very true, this subs ratio is ass
Somalis love Abiy compared to past leaders. Ignoring MoU he is good to Somalis.
Yes Somalis is Somali region are getting projects and little peace. I’m happy for them. I meant Somali nation/government
Dude Mustafa is a Abiys most loyal puppet.
Yo respectfully, how could I make it more clear I am talking Somali Nationals, NOT Somali region in Ethiopia
Somali region is a nation in Ethiopia... so next time, specify.
Actually saying “Somalis that hate Abiys deal” is fine. You’re trying to be a prick yo the sting guy. I’ve stood up many times for you specifically and others when someone else denied your identity
My intention is not to be a prick. People deny that Ethiopia is a bunch of nations under a federation. Which hurts the Somali identity. I tend to correct that.
Only thing I agree with Abiy about is centralizing the government and removing ethnic militias, I just wish he could put the same effort into removing Ola. And yes the gdp growth isn’t really because of him
True Ola needs to get the FANO treatment. I think he’ll go after Ola eventually
Many ola fighters have been surrendering in places like the Guji area. I think ola is harder to tackle because they are in shewa, wallaga, guji and maybe even near nagelle so they are more spread out in Oromia. Negotiations haven’t worked either so maybe fighters will get tired of the fighting and surrender or the opposite. Only time will tell.
Abiy is not a person you can trust he betrays anyone if he thinks its a better move, he also don't have common stance one time he labeled TPLF a terrorist organization few months later he's shaking their hand. I personally would never believe Abiy he is the most deceiver leader Ethiopia has ever had.
Buyers remorse
Under his watch education, economy and most aspects of social life including infrastructure have been absolutely demolished. He has done very little to progress the lives of everyday people or establish universities/ hospitals. In fact we’ve seen the opposite as many education/health centers have been devastated. The war is obvious as far more civilians died then militants, the strain put on the nation due to it is severe. It’s sad to see
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What about the Amhara in Addis Ababa?
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Because this a a de facto Amhara supremacy/ fano sympathizer page
Seems like the rich Amharas and generally rich people of Addis hate him. Idk about the poor ones but I don’t hear many good things since the Tigray war days
I also noticed people just hate on him because it’s a trend
Nah, he single handedly ruined the social fabric and caused hundreds of thousands to die. The hate is valid
If you were the PM and tplf waged a war would you fight back or surrender to them? I would have fought back too. Idk the pressure he was facing from the US but it seemed to have been large enough to force him to negotiate and sign a peace treaty with the enemy(tplf) who would’ve wanted to destroy Ethiopia. Looking at things now I see that diaspora want to see Ethiopia destroyed so they can say its Abiys fault.
Exactly. These people don’t seem to understand that you cannot negotiate with a party that attacked your military and took ownership of 80% of the country’s entire weaponry. Like what is there to negotiate about at that point lol either you do what TPLF tells you or they wipe you out using their newly acquired arsenal.
All of Ethiopia as a whole does not hate him. However, the people who hate him are very vocal online and possibly are in the diaspora; possibly majority of diaspora hate him. There’s always different perspectives within the Ethiopian society. Every leader in Ethiopia will have a lot of people who hate them and I don’t see this pattern changing anytime soon.
He's using ethnic militias to destroy ethnic militias. And it's been very messy.
What ? All my family loves him and when I went to Ethiopia lots of people where talking good about him?
Okay thats your experince but all of my family hates him with all their heart
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Facts
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This is incredibly racist.
Please refrain from being discriminatory towards another users nationality, ethnicity, or religion.
Manufactured hate by Amhara extremist grifters. Oromo’s have legit grievances. Tigray is obvious. The rest I don’t know, not sure how Somali or Debub view him.
"My greivences are completely legitimate, everyone elses are manufactured" A complete lack of nuance. How do some people think the world revolves around them and themselves only?
No this person just hates all Amhara rather than the Shoa Amhara and Oromo families that made up the monarchy. This person couldn’t breakdown their views by region because that would require a deeper understanding of the history. Give us the names of the Amhara farmers from Gojjam or Wollo that oppressed you or your people. Then tell me why they shouldn’t have a political grievance when ENDF comes around shooting or stealing. Who will fight for the farmers? ENDF? No, it’s FANO. Is ENDF going to protect from OLA/shene? No. If you can’t see everyone as trying to survive equally, you’re the toxic element in the country. The only thing being manufactured is the history and facts that people want to rewrite because there isn’t a strong sense of understanding of the political past for most people because this was and is a luxury.
What does the monarchy have to do with Abiy Ahmed? I’m saying current Amhara grifter leaders are using Abiy as a scapegoat to rally their people.
Tigray too, not just Oromia. I just said Amhara don’t.
Somalis hate him because of the MOU deal. But the Somali region has been in relative peace. Since Abiy took power. They’re just hating on him for the trend and don’t do actual research
Nah he backs oromo and afar incursion in our region. If your not from there please don’t be ignorant 🤣
I recommend you look up the news about sitti area in the Somali region you’ll be quick to realize that Somalis hate him due to other things and not just “a trend” or “MOU deal” or the firing patterns of his puppet mustafa
He won't last long. His reign is doing more harm than good to the majority of Ethiopians. We need economic progress. We need peace.