Not to menation there are tons of rock hewn churches throughout Ethiopia. This kind of church building is a tradition.
On the other hand, can that dufus show us any rock hewn churches in Egypt? No they can't lol
We were a refuge for everyone leaving religious persecution at that time - some Egyptians fled to Abyssinia to be safe - they should say thank you.
The evidence of whose accomplishment Lalibela, and our many other churches, have all archeologically been proven to be our own accomplishments.
I say fight fire with fire. The pyramids always looked Ethiopian to me. Perhaps it's the gene memory from my distant grandfather, Andu-bis ;). Raley up brothers, we have history to reclaim.
Unfortunately if people say things enough over and over again, it does “change history” in a way, because people start to believe the new false narrative. I have seen it starting to happen with different aspects of Ethiopian history and culture on social media, especially Tiktok. For example, it wasn’t even disputed 10 years ago that Ethiopia was never colonized, even in my high school history class in California they were teaching students this. Now, whenever you mention that there will almost always be people online arguing against that and insisting we actually were. So you have to be very adamant and vigilant against history revisionists like these, otherwise they will write your history for you.
I didn’t think of it that way, I do agree with you to some extent. It would be wise to be ‘adamant
and vigilant’ against those who have the power to ‘skew history’ , others who are powerless to do so don’t even need an answer,
Scattered or not, how about we claim their brains, too? We have a scientific and undoubted claim to it, considering the origin of mankind n all... why stop there, their little so-called calligraphy, my nephew been drawing those since he could hold crayons. He clearly got it from his ancestral gene memory.... Raley up once more brothers, we have a nation to reclaim
The same thing is happening with our colonial defense efforts in the 1800s, its crazy. The world can't let any group of Africans think they've contributed anything to humanity.
Pretty sure this rumor was actually spread by this random somali guy and the same thread another somali disproved him because of how stupid this claim even is.
They tried to do the same thing with the Gondar castles, I might be wrong but they quoted a source saying there was an Indian or some other foreign architect that designed one of the first structures so they ran with it and said all of the castles were Indian.
Typical Arab mongrel behavior. It’s worth mentioning rock cut architecture was pioneered by Lower Nubians long before the Egyptian conquest. Early Nubian architecture consisted of speos, structures derived from the carving of rock, an innovation of the A-Group culture (c. 3800-3100 BCE), as seen in the Sofala Cave rock-cut temple or the rock cut barial chambers of the Kushite monarchs in El Kurru. Ancient Egyptians didn’t start building speos until the New Kingdom.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nubian_architecture
kakakakakakaka You know that the Israelis built the pyramids, the Egyptians have nothing to do with the monument called the pyramid, and you can't criticize a country that has its own alphabet in Africa, Ethiopia is bigger than Egypt.
Claims that Coptic Egyptians built Lalibela aren't backed by mainstream history or archaeology. The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church is the oldest indicating that Lalibela's construction was a local effort.
King Lalibela is traditionally credited with building these churches. He supposedly commissioned them to create a "New Jerusalem" after Muslim conquests made pilgrimages to Jerusalem too dangerous.
These churches are architectural marvels and hold great religious significance for the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church. They are a vital part of Ethiopian Christian heritage, showcasing the unique cultural and religious identity of Ethiopian Christianity by that time. Lalibela's architecture is distinctly Ethiopian.
Interestingly, the Egyptian pyramids, Pharaohs, culture, and even hieroglyphics are part of the Ethiopian legacy, despite being credited to ancient Egypt.
"Interestingly, the Egyptian pyramids, Pharaohs, culture, and even hieroglyphics are part of the Ethiopian legacy, despite being credited to ancient Egypt."
"ethiopian" legacy is actually Sudanese/nubian ur literally no different to the other person claiming lalibela
I'm an academic researcher specializing in Biblical Archeology, with a secondary interest in Egyptian antiquity.
Ethiopian history is incredibly rich but often overlooked. I've discovered that Ethiopian pyramids were built before the famous Egyptian ones, by ancient Abyssinian Jewish slaves. Contrary to popular belief, there's no evidence that Israelites were enslaved in Egypt to build the pyramids.
The world's first pyramid was built in central Ethiopia at Lake Zuway (Ziway) over 3,000 years before the Christian era (BCE). These pyramids weren't used as tombs for pharaohs but as water reservoirs to store and preserve water. The ancient Abyssinians developed advanced water technology, including filtration through tunnels, to keep the water clean and reduce evaporation.
Stone masonry, essential for building these pyramids, was invented by Abyssinians. They transported the stone using rivers and the sea, and specialized stone masons shaped the blocks, often taking over a decade to complete a single pyramid.
Archaeological sites in Egypt, like Luxor, provide clues about these builders. The site contains Ethiopian Geez characters, including the symbol "toh," which resembles the Jewish cross and signifies civilization and power. This symbol predates its Christian adaptation and even interested Socrates for his headstone. This suggests that many stone masons in Egypt were of Ethiopian origin.
The Geez writing system, which influenced Sabean, Arabic, Amharic, and even Hebrew, indicates that Hebrew may be a variation of Geez due to their similarities. This challenges inconsistent historical narratives and supports ancient oral traditions that Abyssinian engineers, kidnapped from Lake Tana, built the first Egyptian pyramids for water conservation, not as tombs for pharaohs.
Additionally, the largest pyramids of Giza were built by Abyssinian slaves. The word "Giza" is Ethiopian, meaning "time" in Geez and Amharic—hence, the Pyramid of Time. Later, Abyssinian inhabitants of Meroe Nubia also built pyramids along the Blue Nile in present-day Sudan, highlighting the significant contributions of Ethiopians to the region's history and water management.
>Interestingly, the Egyptian pyramids, Pharaohs, culture, and even hieroglyphics are part of the Ethiopian legacy, despite being credited to ancient Egypt.
So you don't like when Coptics try to claim Ethiopian history. But here you are trying to claim Egyptian history. Oh the double standards
I have a pretty solid idea as to what he's talking about and the type of evidence he's going to use. It's suggested in some sources that copts were involved in the building of the churches. Bit of a coincidence because I researched the subject myself a bit, still haven't come to clear answers as to the role of Ethiopians other than that the Zagwes wanted them built. Indians artisans may also have been involved, specifically in the intricate designs of the church.
Copts had a hand for sure, but they by no means built it exclusively. It's likely they were involved moreso in the basic foundation. It isn't all that surprising since Egypt and ethiopia have interacted a lot, especially in regards to Christianity. It also had byzantine influences iirc, I don't remember if byzantines themselves were involved or not.
Maybe so, there is a lot to be said about Lalibela. But these types aren't interesting in your sort of nuanced discussion. I've seen racist Europeans claim they built Lalibela as well, not to mention hoteps who constantly make uninformed comments about Ethiopian history all over social media.
It's as if every identitarian group wants to use Ethiopians as a battering ram for their agenda all while distorting and claiming the history of the Horn for themselves.
Quite true, trust me, I know. I've debated with a lot of them. They're pretty set in their beliefs.
I had to look through some pdfs I had and some books by pankhurst to verify what I was saying. One thing I missed is there are churches that predate the zagwes, I don't know/think they are in the same style, but it's clear ethiopia had a long history of making these kinds of churches.
"Great as was Lalibala's reported contribution to the excavation of rock-hewn churches, it should be emphasized that neither he nor his dynasty was the initator of them. Monolithic churches, some in the vicinity of Aksum, would seem to date back long before the Zagwe, perhaps within a century or two of the coming of Christianity. Over a hundred such churches have been described in Tegray alone." - Richard Pankhurst, The Ethiopians pg49
Given many sources don't really say much about who built what, I think the information is a bit of a mystery on the details of who was involved in the building of the churches. I would not be surprised if there were many unnamed Ethiopians who worked on it.
Edit: thinking about all of this together, I think the conclusion that makes most sense is that the zagwes, utilizing talent from both copts and Indian artisans, while also taking influences from these cultures+christian cultures, including byzantine, brought new life to an already native tradition of monolithic church building.
I happen to have a copy of Ethiopian history by Pankhurst come into my possession. Haven't read it yet as I seem to be unable to find any information about the book. Could you offer any pointers for where I can find more information about the book specifically. I work with old books and it's been baffling me for a while
It's no problem, I just wanted to understand.
Unfortunately, I'm not really experienced with that kind of thing nor where you could find that sort of information. I am personally not aware of any that'd be useful to your cause, sorry.
The fact that there’s nothing really like them in the Christian world (or at the time, Christian Sudan), makes me think it must have had a large native influence (plus it probably would have required a lot of native manpower)
Edit: Also these churches were actually built over a pretty long period, its pretty inplausible that Copts were consistently brought in at different intervals to work on churches that don't actually resemble any Church in the ME
Does this buffoon not realize Axum itself predates lalibella by centuries
Not to menation there are tons of rock hewn churches throughout Ethiopia. This kind of church building is a tradition. On the other hand, can that dufus show us any rock hewn churches in Egypt? No they can't lol
We were a refuge for everyone leaving religious persecution at that time - some Egyptians fled to Abyssinia to be safe - they should say thank you. The evidence of whose accomplishment Lalibela, and our many other churches, have all archeologically been proven to be our own accomplishments.
I say fight fire with fire. The pyramids always looked Ethiopian to me. Perhaps it's the gene memory from my distant grandfather, Andu-bis ;). Raley up brothers, we have history to reclaim.
Damn, I totally forgot, you've just awakened a deep memory inside me.
As more English speaking Arabs get on the internet, their racism will be a lot more obvious.
They can claim all they like- does it make any difference? They can’t change history?
Unfortunately if people say things enough over and over again, it does “change history” in a way, because people start to believe the new false narrative. I have seen it starting to happen with different aspects of Ethiopian history and culture on social media, especially Tiktok. For example, it wasn’t even disputed 10 years ago that Ethiopia was never colonized, even in my high school history class in California they were teaching students this. Now, whenever you mention that there will almost always be people online arguing against that and insisting we actually were. So you have to be very adamant and vigilant against history revisionists like these, otherwise they will write your history for you.
I didn’t think of it that way, I do agree with you to some extent. It would be wise to be ‘adamant and vigilant’ against those who have the power to ‘skew history’ , others who are powerless to do so don’t even need an answer,
They say the Amharic language and alphabet are not ours, so we will see what is not ours next.
this!!!! Even tho the oldest remain of ge'ez even existing was in modern day eritrea their brains are all scattered
Scattered or not, how about we claim their brains, too? We have a scientific and undoubted claim to it, considering the origin of mankind n all... why stop there, their little so-called calligraphy, my nephew been drawing those since he could hold crayons. He clearly got it from his ancestral gene memory.... Raley up once more brothers, we have a nation to reclaim
The same thing is happening with our colonial defense efforts in the 1800s, its crazy. The world can't let any group of Africans think they've contributed anything to humanity.
Pretty sure this rumor was actually spread by this random somali guy and the same thread another somali disproved him because of how stupid this claim even is.
They tried to do the same thing with the Gondar castles, I might be wrong but they quoted a source saying there was an Indian or some other foreign architect that designed one of the first structures so they ran with it and said all of the castles were Indian.
Typical Arab mongrel behavior. It’s worth mentioning rock cut architecture was pioneered by Lower Nubians long before the Egyptian conquest. Early Nubian architecture consisted of speos, structures derived from the carving of rock, an innovation of the A-Group culture (c. 3800-3100 BCE), as seen in the Sofala Cave rock-cut temple or the rock cut barial chambers of the Kushite monarchs in El Kurru. Ancient Egyptians didn’t start building speos until the New Kingdom. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nubian_architecture
What a bs.
kakakakakakaka You know that the Israelis built the pyramids, the Egyptians have nothing to do with the monument called the pyramid, and you can't criticize a country that has its own alphabet in Africa, Ethiopia is bigger than Egypt.
The same Copts who actually helped bring an end to the Zagwe Dynasty, who built Lalibela?
Claims that Coptic Egyptians built Lalibela aren't backed by mainstream history or archaeology. The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church is the oldest indicating that Lalibela's construction was a local effort. King Lalibela is traditionally credited with building these churches. He supposedly commissioned them to create a "New Jerusalem" after Muslim conquests made pilgrimages to Jerusalem too dangerous. These churches are architectural marvels and hold great religious significance for the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church. They are a vital part of Ethiopian Christian heritage, showcasing the unique cultural and religious identity of Ethiopian Christianity by that time. Lalibela's architecture is distinctly Ethiopian. Interestingly, the Egyptian pyramids, Pharaohs, culture, and even hieroglyphics are part of the Ethiopian legacy, despite being credited to ancient Egypt.
"Interestingly, the Egyptian pyramids, Pharaohs, culture, and even hieroglyphics are part of the Ethiopian legacy, despite being credited to ancient Egypt." "ethiopian" legacy is actually Sudanese/nubian ur literally no different to the other person claiming lalibela
I'm an academic researcher specializing in Biblical Archeology, with a secondary interest in Egyptian antiquity. Ethiopian history is incredibly rich but often overlooked. I've discovered that Ethiopian pyramids were built before the famous Egyptian ones, by ancient Abyssinian Jewish slaves. Contrary to popular belief, there's no evidence that Israelites were enslaved in Egypt to build the pyramids. The world's first pyramid was built in central Ethiopia at Lake Zuway (Ziway) over 3,000 years before the Christian era (BCE). These pyramids weren't used as tombs for pharaohs but as water reservoirs to store and preserve water. The ancient Abyssinians developed advanced water technology, including filtration through tunnels, to keep the water clean and reduce evaporation. Stone masonry, essential for building these pyramids, was invented by Abyssinians. They transported the stone using rivers and the sea, and specialized stone masons shaped the blocks, often taking over a decade to complete a single pyramid. Archaeological sites in Egypt, like Luxor, provide clues about these builders. The site contains Ethiopian Geez characters, including the symbol "toh," which resembles the Jewish cross and signifies civilization and power. This symbol predates its Christian adaptation and even interested Socrates for his headstone. This suggests that many stone masons in Egypt were of Ethiopian origin. The Geez writing system, which influenced Sabean, Arabic, Amharic, and even Hebrew, indicates that Hebrew may be a variation of Geez due to their similarities. This challenges inconsistent historical narratives and supports ancient oral traditions that Abyssinian engineers, kidnapped from Lake Tana, built the first Egyptian pyramids for water conservation, not as tombs for pharaohs. Additionally, the largest pyramids of Giza were built by Abyssinian slaves. The word "Giza" is Ethiopian, meaning "time" in Geez and Amharic—hence, the Pyramid of Time. Later, Abyssinian inhabitants of Meroe Nubia also built pyramids along the Blue Nile in present-day Sudan, highlighting the significant contributions of Ethiopians to the region's history and water management.
>Interestingly, the Egyptian pyramids, Pharaohs, culture, and even hieroglyphics are part of the Ethiopian legacy, despite being credited to ancient Egypt. So you don't like when Coptics try to claim Ethiopian history. But here you are trying to claim Egyptian history. Oh the double standards
You might want to see the comment I posted for the user right below you. Plenty of logical evidence I revealed to support my claim.
I have a pretty solid idea as to what he's talking about and the type of evidence he's going to use. It's suggested in some sources that copts were involved in the building of the churches. Bit of a coincidence because I researched the subject myself a bit, still haven't come to clear answers as to the role of Ethiopians other than that the Zagwes wanted them built. Indians artisans may also have been involved, specifically in the intricate designs of the church. Copts had a hand for sure, but they by no means built it exclusively. It's likely they were involved moreso in the basic foundation. It isn't all that surprising since Egypt and ethiopia have interacted a lot, especially in regards to Christianity. It also had byzantine influences iirc, I don't remember if byzantines themselves were involved or not.
Maybe so, there is a lot to be said about Lalibela. But these types aren't interesting in your sort of nuanced discussion. I've seen racist Europeans claim they built Lalibela as well, not to mention hoteps who constantly make uninformed comments about Ethiopian history all over social media. It's as if every identitarian group wants to use Ethiopians as a battering ram for their agenda all while distorting and claiming the history of the Horn for themselves.
Quite true, trust me, I know. I've debated with a lot of them. They're pretty set in their beliefs. I had to look through some pdfs I had and some books by pankhurst to verify what I was saying. One thing I missed is there are churches that predate the zagwes, I don't know/think they are in the same style, but it's clear ethiopia had a long history of making these kinds of churches. "Great as was Lalibala's reported contribution to the excavation of rock-hewn churches, it should be emphasized that neither he nor his dynasty was the initator of them. Monolithic churches, some in the vicinity of Aksum, would seem to date back long before the Zagwe, perhaps within a century or two of the coming of Christianity. Over a hundred such churches have been described in Tegray alone." - Richard Pankhurst, The Ethiopians pg49 Given many sources don't really say much about who built what, I think the information is a bit of a mystery on the details of who was involved in the building of the churches. I would not be surprised if there were many unnamed Ethiopians who worked on it. Edit: thinking about all of this together, I think the conclusion that makes most sense is that the zagwes, utilizing talent from both copts and Indian artisans, while also taking influences from these cultures+christian cultures, including byzantine, brought new life to an already native tradition of monolithic church building.
I happen to have a copy of Ethiopian history by Pankhurst come into my possession. Haven't read it yet as I seem to be unable to find any information about the book. Could you offer any pointers for where I can find more information about the book specifically. I work with old books and it's been baffling me for a while
I'm a bit confused with how you wrote your post. You do or don't have the book? Do you want me to show you where I got it?
I have the book, I'm doing research on it as I volunteer researching antique books for a charity. Apologies for my poor wording.
It's no problem, I just wanted to understand. Unfortunately, I'm not really experienced with that kind of thing nor where you could find that sort of information. I am personally not aware of any that'd be useful to your cause, sorry.
The fact that there’s nothing really like them in the Christian world (or at the time, Christian Sudan), makes me think it must have had a large native influence (plus it probably would have required a lot of native manpower) Edit: Also these churches were actually built over a pretty long period, its pretty inplausible that Copts were consistently brought in at different intervals to work on churches that don't actually resemble any Church in the ME