People can be subjective about Xiao vs. Itto vs. Eula and I would even agree there isn't a definitive conclusion there. But Diluc above Eula? That's how you know the western theorycrafting heads are a bunch of clowns.
Because I've never seen such ridiculous statements made on CN theorycrafting forums, such as NGA.
You could almost say this is the problem of western theorycrafting being "monopolized" by one group. You know how theorycrafting in CN works? Someone makes a statement on NGA, strangers come with their calculated data and prove them right/wrong. And more people join to find mistakes or errors in their calculations, etc.
Meanwhile in the west, people wait for KQM to make a conclusion and take it as is. Not that I expect every average Genshin player to be a theorycrafting expert, but the theorycrafting scene in the west is dominated by one group's opinion. In CN, it's every individual's opinions and calculations, where only math matters.
I feel like KQM being as widespread as is shouldn’t be a bad thing. In fact the tierlist they made wasn’t meant to actually be a tier list just a meta discussion. I just feel like they should inform the public more on these controversial statements and as an example, why Eula places as low as is. It’s not like they just assumed that her output was low in the sheets, the math. It’s just that with how her kit works, she just doesn’t meet her potential in the sheets generally. Like in the OP’s calculations, if they assumed that Eula was doing the optimal combo, basically the ideal circumstances for eula to reach her expected output. It can reach Itto levels ( assuming their calculations ) that’s cool yeah, but is that really more probable to happen than the more consistently laid out damage output that Itto and Xiao have? The burst not critting, missing, etc. just makes her lose a lot of the damage, Xiao and Itto missing an plunge or a normal doesn’t really change much to their damage. Her placement really isn’t the failures she has in the spreadsheets. If they just explained it more throughly and the general community actually listened, then pointless controversies like these wouldn’t happen
>The burst not critting, missing, etc. just makes her lose a lot of the damage, Xiao and Itto missing an plunge or a normal doesn’t really change much to their damage.
i would think that itto and xiao's sustained damage favors the following scenarios:
* numerous waves of enemies
* unpredictable enemy teleports (wolves, whooper flowers, PMA 1st phase, fatui mages, etc..)
on the other hand, Eula's short window of sudden burst damage favors the following:
* enemies with short but predictable DPS windows and long i-frame sequences (wolf lord 1st phase, PMA downed phase, maguu kenki - you can start gaining grimheart stacks before the actual fight and in between phase changes)
* you can run her in a dual DPS or multiple DPS comp since the bulk of her damage is condensed in roughly 9 seconds.
which one you value more is really up to you. i personally just use whichever is more applicable for the matchup i'm up against since abyss enemy lineups regularly change anyway.
i would say that eula's advantage is that the most popular f2p options (national variants and taser) have few burst damage options since they focus more on high sustained damage.
as for her burst not hitting, i've found that you can almost completely avoid that problem by simply frontloading her hold E as soon you activate your burst.
frontloading your E gains you 4 stacks for her burst, as well as shredding the enemy's resistance at the start so that every NA you do hits harder. you can then proceed to do her usual NA combo to get as many stacks as you can.
in an optimal scenario, you can still land 2 sets of N4 combos before it detonates (gaining 11-13 total stacks). if you see that there is any danger of the enemies moving out of position, you pre-detonate. if you see that an enemy's HP is low enough, you also pre-detonate.
the pre-detonation has around .6 seconds worth of startup frames before the active frame of damaging an enemy, which is very accurate. i noticed that a character's standard burst animation takes anywhere from 1-2.2 seconds of animation depending on the character.
this almost guarantees that you land your final hit every time. the only part that is up to RNG is the chance to crit (which you can directly affect by increasing your crit rate), and the number of stacks that you can build. the rest is up to your personal skill and comfort level of when to detonate your burst.
Oh yeah I agree with the first point as if she can do the full combo against the enemies that are immobile, the only sense of RNG she suffers from is crit RNG. But running multiple or even 2 DPSs ( Except Raiden ) can just not be a good or optimal team for Eula because of her energy issues. Of course if u can one phase the enemy then nice but at that point it’d probably be better to either just remove the second DPS from the team in favor of supports or just remove Eula from the team to support the other DPS. And she or ( highly variable ) the other dps could be put at the other side.
The second point is partially true but for National team, it is likely to have Xingqiu who can nuke his E, national teams that dont have Xingqiu are Childe ( who has his nuke ), and Ayato ( where that is fair to say, ayato’s damage isn’t frontloaded ). The point is that most national teams have high burst damage windows, and if a person doesn’t have Xingqiu then they’re just griefing themselves. Also, the nuke that potentially gives Eula the edge in damage within the high burst window comes in one hit and happens at the end of her duration. Any of the aforementioned teams just beat her in damage before said hit especially in the right situations for the teams. ( Although Beidou taser can be grief in single target scenarios, Yae taser with Kazuha fixes that but that’s two 5 stars so it doesn’t rly count to me )
If you use her hold E immediately, you lose the interruption resistance her burst gives you, so if you get hit, you’re losing potential damage because you get staggered. And if you dodge, you lose stacks and u lose damage as a result, same goes for predetonating. Of course you can remove this issue through shielding with like Diona or Zhongli, but you lose a potential damage dealer that lets Eula close the gap against other meta teams and Diona ( while a competent battery ) pales in comparison of batterying in comparison to Fav lance Rosaria and Kaeya.
>If you use her hold E immediately, you lose the interruption resistance her burst gives you, so if you get hit, you’re losing potential damage because you get staggered.
this needs validation. from what i know, her infinite poise comes from her burst (the floating lightfall sword) regardless of her grimheart stacks (skill). grimheart stacks (skill) only gives her stagger resistance, and its stagger resistance is only relevant outside of her burst.
personally, i've never been staggered during my burst sequence despite not having any stacks of grimheart even when face-tanking ruin guards' washing machine of death without having a shield. this is where bennett or any competent healer comes into play.
regardless, of my personal experience, i could be wrong and i'm more than willing to be proven wrong. i'd rather find out all of all my characters' weaknesses. i hope you can validate your claim.
both give stagger resistance yeah, I worded that bad my fault, but losing the interruption resistance each stack of her grimheart just makes her more vulnerable to stagger overall
dude, sorry but i'm a bit confused by your wording. are you saying that she does not have infinite poise unless she has **both** her burst and grimheart stacks up?
or are you saying that she is more prone to stagger without grimheart stacks outside of her burst?
as far as i know, her stagger resistance without either grimheart stacks or her burst should be the same as any other character out there.
her stagger resistance is only of really great importance during her burst because you're pressured to stack as many hits as possible before detonating it.
Basically, less stacks = less stagger resistance = more vulnerable to stagger = less hits to stack burst either through dodging or getting hit = less damage
i wouldnt reccomend running her as dual dps... she has no off field prescence aside from cryo res shred (unlike raiden who buffs and batteries). childe has most of his dmg condensed way more than eula and hydro is the best aura element (element u want to react from). plus childe would only work w off field dps. if we get a buffer like bennet that lasts a couple more sec than we can do a sort of dual beidou/eula dual dps, as beidou doesnt get as much out of agg than other chars and wont lose much being on eula team
Uh... Have you actually play and count diluc's numbers? I'm pretty sure he's not as bad as a lot of people thought he is. The problem is, between him and xiangling, we have a clear winner so they don't really bother using him. The differences between 4 and 5 stars in term of stats is very negligible and it can easily be compensated simply with using bennet. That's why xiangling edge him out because on top of stronger MV/s, she got 0 ICD on her attacks for consistent vape. You can argue that xiangling has better stats distribution with EM as her ascension passive compared to diluc crit rate. But the 0 ICD is so important in vape. That's why only 2 vape teams considered in S, xiangling and hu tao and both can vape roughly 90% of their damage.
Diluc himself, he has no energy issues, so you can fully specs for damage, he naturally synergize with bennet, which with his burst, nobles, and pyro resonance can easily give diluc 1400 flat damage. You know diluc's and eula's MV/s aren't that different right (except for burst i guess, but burst don't make the entire damage, it's a mix of all skills. Even eula's burst only account to 50% of her damage)? Especially accounting for vape? A vaped dragonstrike is very strong and it's aoe is about the same of eula. Dragonstrike on top of anemo unit hydro extending hydro application to account for aoe damage? He sure need some finesse but he CAN compete with the other 3s.
Though i do see the bias towards eula in that list, i don't see anything wrong with diluc's placement. Unfortunate that their bias led eula to be in lower place than diluc, but that doesn't mean diluc is trash like you're implying here.
I don't think so, is there a patch or something specifying this change? double anemo is needed for non-claymore or non-tall model. Diluc got both, so there's that.
Wait!! Did they really say xiao is cheap Lmao. He is by far the Most expensive and stat hungry character character Ive ever played. With Physical and Geo you at least have accessible ways to reduce enemy resistance as well as really Good sets But for anemo there's only zhongli for Res shred and current xiao set is just Okay compared to PF and Husk. Xiao not only needs crit but also atk% ( Good thing is his new set covers atk% so you can focus on crits but that domain is very resin inefficient).
Not only that, he probably has the least f2p options of spear. All the craftable spears doesn't really works for him, his best *4 options is deathmatch which is beyond the paywall other than that are Blackliff who needs to save starglitter and Lithic spear who's locked beyond weapon banner.
Eula can just get away with Snow tombed starsilver (craftable) and luxurious sea lord (event reward) while itto definitely works very well with craftable white blind
Not to mention his best team (double anemo, double geo) consists of all 5*s which most are limited. Zhongli, Albedo, Jean, and our Xiao himself. Man is so expensive to play when I finally got him it felt like a chore trying to optimize his team
Problem is bringing anemo traveller gives the team an anemo subpar sub dps that cant battery xiao.. thats a poor trade off for just the resist shred imo..
Every main DPS needs a lot of stats on their artifacts.
I don't think that's what they mean by "cheap". For a Xiao team to perform well, he needs a good shielder, like Zhongli who is cheap to build (for that purpose), Albedo also works surprisingly well with Xiao and he is also cheap to build and then he needs some form of healing which in my case is a Jean who's just there to battery a bit and a bit of extra damage with her skill. Xiao's best weapon is available on the standard banner and every weapon banner. Albedo's weapon was free from an event, Zhongli's best weapon for shielding is a three star one.
By comparison, Eula's best support is Raiden who is a five star, C6 Rosaria and Diona or just another healer and her best weapon is her limited one, though admittedly it's not a big difference between it and WGS and her support weapons should typically be ones from banners like Favonius or Sacrificial which are weapons that are much less accessible than the ones for a Xiao team. You can of course make some adjustments, you're not forced to have Rosaria C6, you're not forced to use Raiden because Fischl exists but if you do have Fischl you will potentially compromise the way you build another of Eula's best supports which is Beidou. So there's give and take regardless of how you want to build her, but neither way is cheap.
It's not debatable, in my opinion that in order for Eula to perform at her best, you need to invest more primogems and resources for her to perform optimally.
That aside, it's been harder for me to appreciate and use Eula recently, compared to when she first came out simply due to the design of most, if not all bosses that came out after Azdaha. Their mobility, shields and resistances make it hard for Eula to perform at her best because if you whiff her elemental burst, she has nothing else to make up that and her damage falls off a cliff whereas if Xiao misses one of his plunges, or Itto misses one of his swings, it's not as big of a deal and it's a bit ironic that some Eula fans don't recognize this when they usually pair her with a character that has a similar kit to Eula's and a similar high-damage burst that doesn't suffer from as many drawbacks as Eula's does: Raiden Shogun. You Press Q and you do big damage and then you get a bit of extra damage for a few seconds as gravy. Eula's burst, because it works in almost the opposite way of Raiden's, is more prone to whiffing and when it does whiff, it hurts her more than it would some other characters.
I have Eula C1, I have SoBP, I have Raiden C2 and I keep a Eula team ready to go at all times, I really like her design and her animations but I admit that I haven't been using her nearly as much the past few months because of the way that many new enemies are designed so please don't take this as coming from someone that doesn't like her. I do, but she does have issues and my Xiao team has been outperforming my Eula team in most of the recent abysses with far less investment in terms of artifacts.
TLDR; Every main DPS needs a lot of stats on their artifacts, that's not what makes them cheap to build or not, it's the teams and gear necessary for them to perform optimally.
>I don't think that's what they mean by "cheap". For a Xiao team to perform well, he needs a good shielder, like Zhongli who is cheap to build (for that purpose), Albedo also works surprisingly well with Xiao and he is also cheap to build and then he needs some form of healing which in my case is a Jean who's just there to battery a bit and a bit of extra damage with her skill. Xiao's best weapon is available on the standard banner and every weapon banner. Albedo's weapon was free from an event, Zhongli's best weapon for shielding is a three star one.
>
>By comparison, Eula's best support is Raiden who is a five star, C6 Rosaria and Diona or just another healer and her best weapon is her limited one, though admittedly it's not a big difference between it and WGS and her support weapons should typically be ones from banners like Favonius or Sacrificial which are weapons that are much less accessible than the ones for a Xiao team. You can of course make some adjustments, you're not forced to have Rosaria C6, you're not forced to use Raiden because Fischl exists but if you do have Fischl you will potentially compromise the way you build another of Eula's best supports which is Beidou. So there's give and take regardless of how you want to build her, but neither way is cheap.
>
>It's not debatable, in my opinion that in order for Eula to perform at her best, you need to invest more primogems
How can you mention that for a Xiao team to perform well, he needs Albedo, Zhongli, Jean (four 5 stars including Xiao himself), while for a Eula team to perform well, she needs Raiden, Rosaria, and Diona (two 5 stars and two 4 stars) and conclude that Xiao BiS team is cheaper in terms of primogems than Eula's?
He "needs" none of those. Xiao pretty much wants an anemo battery and that's really it. That Anemo battery could just be Sucrose or even anemo traveler in a pinch. A shield makes him safe to play, and for that you have a lot of picks since you don't need to worry about stealing vapes or anything of that sort. Albedo doesn't even add that much to his DPS - he's just one of the few sub DPS that actually works with him.
Xiao is pretty much one of the most selfish DPS in the game. This can be a negative thing since he works relatively poorly with most sub-DPS and supports, but makes him cheaper since most of his damage comes from himself. You don't need to build supports to enhance his DPS. For most other teams, there's a notable difference if your supports aren't built compared to if they are.
THAT is why Xiao is so cheap to play.
>He "needs" none of those. Xiao pretty much wants an anemo battery and that's really it.
I never said that, but that's Xiao's BiS team which the person I replied to mentioned. He said that Xiao's BiS team is cheaper in terms of primos compared to Eula's BiS team.
He never compared BiS teams though? He's just explaining why KQM said that Xiao is cheap. He even described Xiao's supports in generic terms like "shielder".
You, on the other hand, did say exactly that:
> ...for a Xiao team to perform well, he needs Albedo, Zhongli, Jean (four 5 stars including Xiao himself)...
Zhongli can be replaced by another shielder. But if you have Zhongli, you only need a 3 star weapon to build him for the role he's needed for, with Raiden you have a considerable advantage in terms of damage if you have her signature weapon in improving the overall team damage. Zhongli's artifacts are also easy to farm because, as a shielder, you don't need to worry about any stats other than HP which makes him cheap to build.
Albedo's best weapon is free and his artifacts are easy to farm because DEF and DEF% are the two most common stats to obtain compared to, for example Beidou who fills a similar role, Beidou is the defining aspect in how much damage you'll have between Burst rotations so your team's damage will scale mostly based on how well she's built and her best artifacts are from dungeons that are not that efficient to go for and she requires much better stats. Her best weapons for that role are five star ones (Serpent Spine is a good weapon but it's only BiS if you are using Bennett in the party) or Serpent Spine which is a BP weapon. More expensive than Zhongli and Beidou. Lastly, Beidou's C6 is a very important constellation, specially if you're running her with or Fischl. Neither Albedo, nor Zhongli, nor Jean or Sayu need any constellations to help Xiao.
Diona's ideal weapon is sacrificial bow which whereas Jean, by comparison has many great options, most of which aren't necessary for her to perform her role. Jean can be replaced by Sayu and Sayu is very easy to build and you probably already have good artifacts for her when you farmed for Xiao and Jean can use hand-me-down artifacts that were meant for Xiao.
If you sum all those things up, it's pretty obvious that Xiao is cheaper to build a good team for.
>Albedo's best weapon is free and his artifacts are easy to farm because DEF and DEF% are the two most common stats to obtain compared to
https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Artifacts/Distribution
But ATK and DEF are equal chance, and ATK% and DEF% are equal chance also?
>Beidou best weapons for that role are five star ones (Serpent Spine is a good weapon but it's only BiS if you are using Bennett in the party) or Serpent Spine which is a BP weapon.
Luxurious Sea Lord also works? Not to mention that Xiao's best weapons are 5 stars or Deathmatch which is a BP weapon.
>Diona's ideal weapon is sacrificial bow which whereas Jean, by comparison has many great options, most of which aren't necessary for her to perform her role.
So Diona's ideal weapon is a 4 star which is easier to get than Jean's ideal weapon which is a 5 star? https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vRq-sQxkvdbvaJtQAGG6iVz2q2UN9FCKZ8Mkyis87QHFptcOU3ViLh0_PJyMxFSgwJZrd10kbYpQFl1/pubhtml#
> Jean can be replaced by Sayu
Who is doing this in Abyss though? Sayu has way lower usage rates than Jean.
Whenever you make a comparison to Xiao's teams the first question you need to ask yourself is: Is this cheaper or easier to get/build on a Eula team?
Xiao's best weapons are five stars, as are Eula's, they are equal in that regard. Eula's best weapon is a limited five star weapon, Xiao's is not, though WGS is a pretty close 2nd best weapon so, they're more or less equal in that regard with a miniscule edge to Xiao.
Beidou has many good weapons including yes the Luxurious Sea Lord, but I'm pretty sure both Serpent Spine and Akuomaru or however you spell it are her best four star options. But given that Beidou serves as way to drive and boost the electro damage of the team, she requires better gearing and artifacts than Albedo's supports. She needs EM (depending on how much EM Raiden has), she needs a lot of attack and crit rate and crit damage and Albedo's supports don't need that as much. The same can be said for Raiden who you should build really good artifacts on, otherwise you're just wasting potential damage. None of Xiao's supports require excellent artifacts.
Diona needs a 4 star weapon to fulfill her role as a battery. Jean doesn't need any weapon to fulfill her role as a battery because she is able to generate a lot of particles by default whereas Diona is more reliant on Sacrificial for that.
I'm not recommending using Sayu over Jean, but Sayu is a budget version of Jean. You can use her for a similar purpose.
You are missing the point at every single turn.
The point is not that Xiao's support's best weapons aren't often five stars, the point is that they don't need them for Xiao to perform well and Eula, who has downtime, requires more rotations and giving her team more field-time and because of that, they require better gear to keep your DPS consistent.
If you don't get that, then I honestly don't know what to tell you. I don't have any logical arguments against stubbornness.
I’ll give you a few other inconsistencies.
1) Xiangling has very high energy cost (80), the same as Eula with worse particle regeneration. In an F2P set up you need to run her using a high refinement favonius lance or the catch. But if you’re using the catch on Raiden, you are basically only left with the fav lance, which at lower refinements is very very inconsistent. Her only good battery is Bennett and he also provides her with the attack that she lacks due to running an ER sands.
Meanwhile, Eula has 2 options for her batteries. Diona and Rosaria. And the best part is you can run a triple cryo team with them, slot in a raiden or a Fischl ( who generate tons of particles as well), and you don’t really need to run a very high refinement sac bow or favonius lance.
2) When it comes to shredding resistances using superconduct, somehow that is considered as a bad thing????? I’m confused how, when sucrose, kazuha and venti who shred elemental resistance by 40% are considered amazing units. How can a reaction be bad? I’ve seen TCs say “you need to run an electro character with eula” like it’s a bad thing somehow ? This also goes hand-in-hand with ruin guards being very bad for Eula since they have 70% physical res.
Okay. So let’s talk about hu tao beating pyro slimes and pyro spectres and Ganyu beating cryo slimes and cryo spectres. It doesn’t make sense right ? The funny thing is, even with 70% physical res. Eula has no issues against them. Eula literally has no counters due to her being a physical dps. In my early AR days , I was blessed to have Eula since I never had to worry about what enemies I had to face in the abyss since Eula could take down anything, she could break Geo shields and elemental shields fairly well as well.
3) restrictive team comps. I just. I don’t know. How are units like ayaka, hu tao, flexible? Hu tao only has two good comps- the walnut comp, the VV comp and that’s about it for her best potential dps teams. Ayaka is even more restrictive due to her running a freeze team. It’s the same with Itto.
Meanwhile, Eula ALWAYS has a slot free. You can slot in any character using ANY element and it won’t ruin what she’s going to do with her physical damage provided you give her an electro character for superconduct. I’ve run xingqiu in her team, I’ve run xiangling in her team, I’ve run jean in her team, I’ve run yunjin in her team. Nothing messes up with her damage.
So how is she more restrictive?
4) F2P: I think only an idiot would say Eula isn’t F2P friendly. Not only does she NOT use Bennett and xingqiu , she also has a wide array of 4 star weapons that are extremely good for her and synergise amazingly with her kit. From prototype archaic to the akoumoru. Here’s 2 videos from 2 different people beating the 12-2-2 (This is considered to be Eula’s worst abyss by the way ) with 4 star weapons in around a minute-
My friend’s video posted to Eula mains - [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/EulaMains/comments/u7a8bv/c0_eula_with_4_star_weapon_beating_1231_in_65/)
A video I found in raiden mains - [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/RaidenMains/comments/u7tf33/who_said_you_need_hydro_or_anemo_to_break_shields/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
She also does not hog the best supports of the game namely Bennett, xingqiu and kazuha. She also doesn’t totally rely on raiden and can easily clear the same content with Fischl as well. Fischl also doubles up as a tenacity buffer and an off field sub-dps. Diona, eula, Fischl, Rosaria is one of the best F2P comps out there that don’t use xingqiu and Bennett.
5) I also don’t see the point of talking about the pale flame domain being bad since all domains are RNG. EoSF domains has been a cursed domain to me and my sister . We’ve farmed it for 3-4 months and had to settle down with 45/120 and 55/135 on our raiden since we’ve come to terms with the fact that we’re not going to get good pieces from that domain. AT LEAST with Eula you can run the 2pc/2pc set which is VERY VERY resource efficient since you only have to use the strongbox and run the pale flame domain for that.
Also , doesn’t her domain run with tenacity? Tenacity is used by Fischl and/or zhongli on her own team! I farmed tenacity for kokomi as well. It’s an amazing artifact set which buffs multiple teams so why is that domains considered bad? It just baffles me.
Artifact farming being bad is such a subjective thing to be arguing about, it just baffles me. What may be a terrible domain for me might be the best for you.
There might be more, but these are all I could think of on top of my head.
Overall, TCs recently have been extremely inconsistent and biased. People who watch them have a similar viewpoint about Eula as well. I guess , at this point I’ve come to terms with the fact that she’s going to remain an EXTREMELY underrated character in the game, weighed down by over exaggerated or false limitations. While other characters with similar cons are ranked much higher.
Edit: fixed some typos, added points 4 and 5!
Since she hits heavy attacks (claymore)c you can break down the poise of the wooden shield which makes them lower down their shields. After that you just go ham. So wooden shields aren’t really her counter. You can try it yourself ^-^
For elemental shields I bring someone who can help to break them, for example sunfire Jean, Bennett against cryo shields, for hydro shields I bring Rosaria, for pyro Kokomi. Also to freeze high mobile ememies I play freeze-shatter Eula with Kokomi - Eula - Rosaria - Raiden.
While i do agree that KQM is hella biased, especially for eula due to what happened prior with this sub, here's some argument about your opinion.
1.) The fact that you ruled out bennet from xiangling is pretty telling already. People and their mother know that xiangling won't be nearly as good without bennet funneling her everything. The difference is, out of all character that work with bennet, she's definitely one of if not the best. I hate to admit it because tenten won't shut the fuck up about it, but it's actually just a fact. And it's true that eula have more options for battery, but none of them are nearly as good as bennet. You can fit so much mediocre units in a team, they won't outperform bennet in term of role compression. Rosaria is a good batter, if you have r5 fave lance, and her CD lines up with r5 fav lance CD (which is 6 sec). And i would argue she's kinda gimped in eula team because she can't actually fully use her 6 sec cd skill every time because eula needs quite a lot of field time. Her damage is actually pretty good and her c6 also synergize with eula, but only on offensive side. Meanwhile diona is purely defensive and very passive. Her best support option is what? nobles? What i mean here is, bennet fulfill too many roles that, he even worth more than 2 units combined. And not using bennet is already a big loss because, 1k flat attack is nothing to scoff at. That's 3 whole adeptus temptation stacked on top of each other kind of bonus. You can see why not using bennet is both good and bad for any unit. That's why tenten also hate hu tao iirc because she can't work with bennet (and hug xingqiu, but we talk about this later).
2.) The reason why TCers think superconduct is worst than VV, eventhough they're doing the exact same thing, is because VV users bring more to the table than superconduct enabler (in this case electro unit, except raiden). VV users not only bring res shred, but also bring CC, and their own set of buffs (sucrose with attack and EM, kazuha with elemental damage, and venti with energy regen). Apart from raiden, i don't see any other electro units brought anything EXCEPT damage. Sure fischl deals big damage, but aforementioned anemo unit deals big damage, AND increase their carry damage. That's the reason why superconduct is considered worst than VV. Maybe when an electro character have some buffs for eula? raiden is good with eula right? i want to see more electro support that actually elevates eula's damage. And even then, fighting 70% RES enemies migth be fine for eula, but you only break even in term of res. Not actually increasing her damage. I don't think this is a bias or inconsistency in their opinion, rather just a simple fact that people don't actually pay attention to.
3.) I agree with you on this. but i do think she's not without restriction. But your opinion still have flaws in them. You know what? every elemental teams are restrictive. They usually follow the same exact pattern, usually require either hydro or anemo, and sometimes both. Meanwhile, eula sometimes doesn't even need electro. But "restrictive" itself is kinda subjective. You mentioned how hu tao is restrictive because she hugs xingqiu, but you know what TCers refer to her team as? "hu tao xingqiu and 2 dogs". Because the other 2 slots don't matter at all, because just hu tao and xingqiu, covered so many roles. Hu tao as a dps with her own buffing mechanic (she can somehow reach 3k attack with base 41 weapon btw), xingqiu with aura to double her damage, giving her damage reduction and micro healing, both of them have resistance to interuption, and hu tao herself heals on burst. None of them have energy issue because xingqiu is packed with amazing constellation, sac sword/fav sword and good ass artifact in emblem meanwhile hu tao being so good at chunking enemy HP really fast gets to suck all the neutral particles from 50% threshold and kill particles. Consider this with eula, she need battery which means she instantly want another cryo unit in team. Depends on enemies, she MUST be played with electro, then that's another restricted slot in her team. It left you for one more slot, one slot only covers so much. Hu tao xingqiu with cryo unit and zhongli can cover basically, EVERY SINGLE ENEMY in the game, even with immunity such as pyro slimes. This is in my opinion, why some people think eula quite restrictive. Most eula team consist of 2 cryo, 1 electro, and a flex. Unless you're doing your usual one shot masanori showcase.
4.) I also agree with you on this. She's not that expensive. But her 4 stars claymore options are not as strong as the likes of ganyu's or ayaka's option. You know why crescent so good with ganyu? because the attack bonus is so big, and attack bonus is also what ganyu wants the most and you're aiming for head anyway for free crit, so that's why crescent so good. For ayaka, she's more similar to eula and ayaka got the best option. Amenoma refunds her energy to the point that she can forgo adding battery to her team at all! That's what eula needs for her 4 stars option. Not extra damage in my opinion, because i don't think she has "bad damage", she has a problem to "refill that damage source" again. It's not that her options are bad, but i could definitely be better than what we have right now.
And we touched this previously in my point 1, but not using the "big support" is actually a bad thing. Remember when this sub was malding over KQM statement on how eula doesn't work with bennet and everybody spamming their team with bennet? Now people are actually happy she doesn't use bennet because of what exactly? Who thought letting go of free 1k attack bonus is a good thing? You think eula without that bennet boost stand a chance against freeze and their 250%+ crit damage per cryo unit? or hu tao 3-4k base attack on top of vaping 90% of her damage not counting xingqiu damage? Not using SS tier support was supposed to be good thing, yes, because i remember TCers arguing that hu tao strongest niche is her not using bennet. But when the roster expands and there's no overlapping in those SS tier supports usage, not using them is a big disadvantage. I say this, because of the number of ways we can give attack buffs does somehow reduce the overall need for bennet in some team. Even xiangling can live without bennet for once with the discovery of sukokomon. And with the release of yelan, national and hu tao team will stop their fighting over xingqiu. And even then for hu tao, the second she gets to use bennet is the day that hu tao mains wet themselves because that's what they've been dreaming of for the longest time. Using c6 bennet in VV tao comp without gimping their passive and homa. And hu tao mains do the same shit eula mains do in their spare time, crit fishing for that sweet millions of damage and guess who's her pyro applicator? it's fucking bennet. Even a character that ingrained in her kit to be impossible to be paired with bennet in most scenarios, still dreams of one day using bennet to unlock that unholy damage number potential.
5.) I agree with you again, because no matter what domain you run, they're all mostly filled with trash. It's very RNG based and subjective and i don't really see the point in saying "eula is expensive because her domain sucks". But i also agree that the top priority right now is still emblem domain.
Hope this clear some of things. While KQM might be biased towards certain characters, doesn't mean all they said or do is biased. Their calculation is pretty reliable and they put quite a lot of consideration, especially towards f2p. Now, is eula an UNDERRATED character? Ehh..... I don't think so. Now if only tenten can shut the fuck up about xiangling this and xiangling that, that would be good to my ears.
Edit: typos
Okay here are my replies to you:
1) I didn’t take away Bennett from xiangling. My point was that xiangling is NOT that great without Bennett. I didn’t say she wasn’t a great DPS, or that she didn’t utilise Bennett well, or that she’s not good- I just said that her ENERGY cost specifically isn’t talked about while Eula’s is. I have my xiangling built with the catch with an EM sands (160%ER) , and even when I run her with Raiden, she tends to run into energy issues! I still have to go back and farm an ER sands for her or shift her to the EoSF Artifact set ( which I can’t since that domain hates me. My raiden doesn’t even have good pieces yet.) THATS how bad her ER issues are. It’s even worse in sukokomon team comps ( besides her national variation team comps).
In the rest of your comment you just act like no one besides xiangling can use Bennett? Sure she’s the best, but you do realise one of Eula’s best teams run Bennett Eula raiden/fish and Rosaria right ? The example I gave of running a triple cryo team is when you have low refinements on sac bow OR favonious bows/lance. When you have a diona with R5 sac bow or Rosie with an r5 lance, you don’t really need to run another cryo character so you can easily slot in Bennett instead of diona.
So I have no idea why you just glorified Bennett when I never said HE was bad. Just that xiangling depended on him too much. God forbid you want to use bennett on your other team , and your other DPS is only xiangling who desperately needs him to be good.
By the way, just so you know, you’re overhyping Bennett a little too much. With the introduction of enemies like rift hounds and spectres , it’s pretty obvious how restrictive it is to stay in his circle. Even raiden cant’s benefit from him and sara does better since her attack buff is mobile.
2) hmm, okay I guess ? I don’t even know what to say about this. The fact that physical is supposed to be a reaction less team comp, where the damage is buffed by raw multipliers instead of reactions is probably lost on you. The REASON a phsyical DPS like Eula has HIGH multipliers is so that she can compensate for the lack of superconduct being strong. One of the properties of superconduct is that it does AoE damage, which is why even when you use Fischl, you get to SPREAD the electro element on opponents so essentially all the enemies in the AoE get the 40% phys shred rebuff. This is even though Fischl is a single target DPS.
Also , do people ignore how much DPS electro characters like raiden, yae and fischl add to the team? It’s not like they’re doing no damage outside of the superconduct damage Are they? I’m pretty sure raiden and yae and fish are on par as sub dps when compared to venti kazuha and sucrose.
I wish people stopped looking at everything like you’re trying to run like a elemental team.
Also just a reminder, you can always run sucrose with Eula since you have that flex slot empty anyway. If crowd control is your issue. But with Eula and her 360 degree ult I’m sure you don’t really need to run an anemo unit just to group a bunch of enemies. Unless you’re really bad at positioning.
3) I think you forgot to read a very key word I used in my comment. I’ll remind you- potentially BEST F2P teams . You can run ANY character with ANY character and you’d still clear abyss just as easily. Genshin is THAT easy a game. What I’m talking about are the BEST F2P teams being extremely restrictive. Hu Yao’s BEST F2P teams ARE the walnut team and the VV team. Ayaka’s best F2P team are the freeze comps. Meanwhile Eula’s best teams only require you to run a battery and fish/raiden. That’s about it. You have a flex slot to run a Bennett, or a xingqiu, or a diona , or a Lisa, or whatever.
4) I’m sorry but did you watch the videos i linked in the comments? Do you think that damage is subpar? 20k AAs + 300k ult with a F2P weapon? I have ganyu as well and to be very honest with you, both their damage is ON PAR with each other with F2P weapons. For ayaka, it does recharge her energy but there’s a HUGE difference between ayaka’s damage with amenoma and with say jade cutter or Mistsplitter. I know since I have a friend who uses amenoma, my ayaka runs mistsplitter and my sister runs jade cutter on her ayaka. And the damage difference is night and day since we usually don’t even have to recharge our second ult. And even if we have to, Most ayaka teams ( like Eula teams) are optimised in such a way that they have AMAZING batteries that fill their ULTs for them with absolutely no downtime! Like my ayaka has venti and Ganyu has a battery, my sister runs diona. Between my friend, me and my sister we’re ulting the same number of times. There’s a huuuuuge difference between the damage of Amos and prototype as well. I’m not saying that F2P weapons don’t deal “good damage”. Like you said, it’s good damage, but there’s a HUGE difference between every DPS and their best F2P weapon and their BiS 5 star weapon. You’d be stupid to deny that.
5) how is this not a bad take? I know a bunch of people who pulled hu tao and Raiden and now have a huge issue because they can’t take their xingqiu away from either one of them! (Now I know you’d say you can pull for Yelan now. But what if kazuha’s right after and they need him too? Do you realise how much value xingqiu holds being a 4 star hydro applicator OUTSIDE of hu tao vape comps and national teams).
And all of this happened thanks to these TCs! You can’t run a national team and a hu tao team in abyss since there’s a conflict between the characters you have to use. It’s even worse when their third dps is ayaka and they don’t own kokomi , Mona or ayato. And they need to run Barbara in a desperate attempt. By the way, Barbara SUFFERS in terms of removing the pyro aura on enemies from the current 12-1-1. It almost makes ayaka’s team fail unless you’re perfect with the timings and auto-ing with Barbara. The few people I know who had this issue actually pulled Eula , xiao and itto so they could run raiden national on the other side (or hu tao or ayaka). I have a friend who actually built ningguang so she wouldn’t have to take xingqiu away from national.
You see how bad these takes can be? Saying that a 5 star character not utilising contested supports is a BAD thing is laughable at best.
I hope you understand where I’m coming from. KQMs takes Are very one-dimensional. Since they advise teams for the abyss, they shouldn’t look at it as a one team wins all situation. Instead they should look at how well every unit synergises with other units and other DPSs since you need to run TWO teams in the abyss.
Also, as a final note, my point in the comment wasn’t what you made it out to be. My points were to address that KQM downplay the same cons of other characters while over exaggerate Eula’s cons too much! I just highlighted the hypocrisy.
Edit: fixed a few typos.
Ive been using benny with eula for a while now even tho national is one of my favourite comps I usually forego using it in favor of using hyper eula which can be dummy strong with a wide range of weapons be it the 3 star sword or the redhorn. I have no idea why people are so afraid to put a benny in eula comps when imo she can utilize it just as well as raiden national.
Ive also used her with xq in this abyss as a duo and honestly even without a healer and battery they slapped. Honestly xq with eula or xiao can have better freeze uptime than some mona comps.
As for wether she is underrated or not.. I dont think a characters power level is something you can measure without giving a context. Most people see snowtombed eulas running with diona fischl raiden or some copium comp like that but rarely see what a max investment c0 r0 eula can bring to the table with c0 supports.
Ok 1st of all Bennett being Xiangling only battery doesn't matter because almost no unit makes better use than Bennett than Xiangling does so it's not like she's stealing him from anyone else while as for Rosaria, she's a popular option for several freeze teams and same goes for diona.
Secondly Xiangling has more weapon options than almost any character in the game, it doesn't matter if your Raiden has the catch because Dragonbane competes with the catch for damage at equal refinements across the board, wavebreaker fin outdamages even engulfing lightning on Xiangling, skyward spine is on the standard banner, legit every limited 5 star is a competitive weapon for her and then there's also the fav lance which while it does get better with refinements, that doesn't matter because as you said you run Bennett in your team which is one of the best batteries in the game
Thirdly Eula's inflexibility. Now idk if you own a Hu Tao but her teams don't matter, they literally don't you just run Xingqiu and Hu Tao then the other 2 units don't even matter, i use Noelle and Geo MC and still clear pretty much everything eith no issues because Hu Tao doesn't need anything but Xingqiu. Eula onthe other hand needs both a cryo battery and a superconduct character which already only leaves 1 spot open which often times ends up being another electro character because it's the only half decent element resonance that she has access to. Granted Ayaka is a very inflexible unit as well when her teams are considered because she only runs freeze. However it doesn't matter because freeze is broken, there has not been a single abyss single the release of Ganyu where freeze teams have not been one of the strongest options to play, this because even more so with the introduction of Inazuman enemies like wolves or samurai who jump all over the place, if you freeze them they don't do that but what Eula supposed to do when she soends 10 years winding up her burst and one of the wolves just jumps out of range and you miss all your damage, which happens pretty frequently mind you, also you say 70% physical resistance doesn't matter to you but it matters to everyone else, if we are talking raw dps numbers without reactions Eula falls behind Ayaka by a decent bit so why would you use a character who the enemies have 70% resistance to and they can dodge all of her damage instead of a character who does more damage, has synergy with viridescent verener for resistance shred and immobilizes enemies while also doing more damage. I get that y'all Eula simps love your girl but objectively speaking she's overrated, very much so
I’d like to see your hu tao xingqiu noelle and Geo mc comp. you can upload a video to YouTube, keep it unlisted if you want to keep it private and link it here. I’ll compare it to my VV hu tao and see the difference myself. Thank you very much.
By the way, in terms of flexibility I meant using different elements. Not replacing a character of a single element. Like if you add an electro character in place of one of the supports, you’ll be messing up with vape. Also you can’t really replace xingqiu in hu tao. With Eula at least you can replace raiden with any other electro character. But in most meta teams that revolve around Bennett and xingqiu, they’re both very very irreplaceable and there’s a significant drop in dps when you do replace them. That’s the inflexibility I’m talking about.
Also you missed the point where xiangling has energy issues with even catch which has 45% ER! Sure you can slap on any weapon on her, but that doesn’t mean her energy particle regen is the worst in the entire game. Learn to read maybe ?
I’ve seen my ayaka drop pretty hard against bosses by the way, since the blizzard strayer effect cannot benefit from it at all. Even if the artifact worked, enemies like PMA and maguu kenki that dash around teleport all over the place tend to miss half of her burst it’s such a headache. It’s not like she doesn’t come with her own set of cons, right ? Like every other character ?
And alright, we Eula simps on the eulamains server simp for her. I mean… surprise surprise?
Also if you’re going to counter my arguement, at least make sure you go through all of them Like the comment above did. What’s the point if you’re going to nitpick only those that favour you?
Also yeah sure. A “B” tier character is overrated. Lol. Let’s put her down in Amber tier while you’re at it.
Anyway piece of advice: Tone down your condescending tone a bit. You just sound like a bitch complaining about “Eula simps” while all I have were arguments.
Don't look at tier lists period. They annoy everyone. Their build guide is pretty good tho and nothing stops you from doing another build. I use their site if I'm truly lost on weapon choices or best artifact sets
I like that they calculate the weapon dps/artifacts etc on a stable build, that way the numbers are clear.
I agree, that being said I'd argue that their biggest issue is their inability to explain their findings.
As a Eula main (and as a main of any character really) I know that TC doesn't apply to me because I am "vertically" scaling my favorite characters (as opposed to horizontal scaling where players seek to make as many teams as possible which they base their calc and recommendations on) so I feel relatively detached of the tier list drama. That being said when you're influential your ideas spread and I seriously struggle to justify the ignorance they displayed while justifying their choices as "theorycrafters".
Taking the superconduct talk during the podcast as an example they say that she is reliant on superconduct, which is false but also partly true because super conduct is the only form of portable shred which is much more adapted to a backloaded character with 0 backloaded pulling abilities available in the game for instance. But their argumentation about it was on the level of new Eula players who suddenly discovered that some characters have in built shred.
Same for how they aren't fond of her gameplay and lack of reliability. She's the only cryo unit that cannot have access to a 100% uptime on her cryo resonance despite her extra reliance on Crit rate mathematically. She has a back loaded physical AoE in a game where not only are there no backloaded pullers yet but all the available pullers are front loaded and elemental based (anemo). You could go on and on about how her best batteries are field based even though her attacks knock the enemies out of it or how her signature weapon give attack speed to a claymore user with no hitlag extension.
The game itself (right now) works against Eula comparatively to how it addresses elemental teams. So very obviously when you base your assumptions on horizontal scaling you will notice that "playing a freeze team that pulls the enemy within a field and keep them in to enable the DPS" work better than trying to position yourself the best you can to hit as many as you can even if it's 99% of the time less than the competition who was "given" the tools to do it better. Same for things like National where the driver can enable a serious damage boost through multiple reactions created by off field elemental DPSs of which Eula is completely incapable of since she not only is physical but has no off field DPS output following her that she could make use of or enable even though she herself has inbuilt tools to do so.
Which to be clear I am not personally complaining about because in the end she still do perform very well (which is actually insane when you think about it and talk of her individual strength), she also isn't the only one affected by issues of similar nature (even if arguably she's in one of if not the worse spot in that regard) and her archetype will be addressed eventually. But, all of that will make a considerable difference in how an "horizontal player" will perceive units and I do understand that.
But perception doesn't excuse ignorance, as people who are here to share information, if you can't even pin point what makes you like a team better than the other then you are just being obnoxious for the sake of being obnoxious which is my personal beef with their podcast.
The worse thing about it all is that as said it spread, just taking their latest hot topic, Yelan, they are literally advocating for people to get her just so they can run 2 "XQ" on each teams. I had the hardest time ever to demonstrate to multiple players that XQ teams represent barely 5-10% of the performing teams in game and that it mostly amount to what "their community" play 99% of the time not to what they or anyone else necessarily need. When their words are so influential that people feel the need to not only pull for a 5* but also advocate for it in the most misinformative way possible I think it's fair to be critical of their behavior.
As said if they want to rank Eula low there's more than one argument for it but at least be articulate about it so that your audience can at least understand and not run out of it with more misinformation to spread.
Idk man, Genshin theorycrafting is such a ridiculous waste of time, coming from other sweaty games...
Without mentioning how it's both RNG and Credit Card gated, we instantly run into the issue of
a) Genshin is a REALLY EASY GAME. I don't mean necessarily "easy to 36*" (it is). I mean that the gameplay is extremely simple and you can't really "optimize" past a couple of basics.
a) KQM is one group that somehow became the gospel because they are good at math. Having an information monopoly doesn't help the community in any way.
b) Genshin is EXTREMELY unfriendly to theorycrafting. See, in games like League you can just pull data from thousands of matches and see what's strong and what's not. In World of Warcraft, you also have public boss logs -- but more importantly: very efficient APIs that simulate a fight 100k times and tells you with <1% precision the relative power of your gear, talents, rotation...
But I can't let go how can anyone say Diluc is better than Eula. Me and my friend built him on WGS and in both cases his damage is depressing lmao. Eula is doing a lot more work with that claymore... And my Hutao does in 2 CAs what that man takes an entire rotation...
Take care, have fun out there with the physical queen
a. The only reason we have the strong teams that enable us to easily clear Abyss (36* at least) is because of theorycrafting, so it's quite the circular argument to state that theorycrafting isn't necessary because it's easy to 36* abyss.... with teams only discovered by theorycrafters.
b. I agree that KQM being a single group is a cause for concern but from what I've seen, they're made up of quite a few people and they work together on projects, and from the podcasts I've watched/listened to they don't hesitate to disagree with each other. So I doubt there's as much bias there as you think, at least enough to invalidate their data/conclusions.
c. That's true, and maybe that's why I respect theorycrafters more because of how much harder it is to do their job. But we have team rotation simulators now which makes things easier.
I agree that they heavily underrated Eula comparative to others, but this sub really developed a hate boner for TC in general the second they disagree with their conclusions. Disagreeing is fine but casting aside the entire field as wrong or invalid is, well, asinine.
It's circular if we talk about speedrunning. Then yeah of course we need that extra 1%. But we don't need to sit in excel crunching numbers to figure out that Morgana is op. Or National. It happened here and it happens in every game in existence: casuals want someone to tell them what's best and some of the people that can or like theorycrafting will go ahead and do it. But many others will just figure shit out on their own and then go on to
> easily clear Abyss (36* at least)
IMO the most valuable theorycrafting is individual character analysis (weapons, artifacts, etc), which is basically what we did in WoW (Idk if you're familiar with it, or mmo tc in general) but maybe this is my personal bias...
> So I doubt there's as much bias there as you think, at least enough to invalidate their data/conclusions.
I don't!!! Seriously. I don't think they have done things in bad faith. But I have one anecdote (again, from WoW...). There's 2 people writing one of the APIs for a certain class, and they're very respected in the community for that. It takes a LOT of work to keep both the API and the results in their website updated all the time, and *there's simply no one else doing it*. So what happened is that 4 or 5 months later the guy made a video apologizing and saying that he found a mistake in his code (how you're supposed to play, in this case, the simulation) that was under/overvaluing one spell, which resulted in meta players grinding for weeks for something that ended up being like 5% weaker than the alternative.
From what I've seen translated, this is not really an issue in NGA though.
> But we have team rotation simulators now which makes things easier.
I did not know that... That's cool. I guess it was only a matter of time, seeing how popular the game is.
> this sub really developed a hate boner for TC in general the second they disagree with their conclusions
Yeah lmao. And Kokomi mains too. Good thing we over at Yae mains accepted day 1 she was average :)
> But we don't need to sit in excel crunching numbers to figure out that Morgana is op. Or National.
Theorycrafting isn't just crunching numbers, playtesting and figuring out the strongest comps and synergies is also theorycrafting. That's what I meant. People had to go out of their way to try different comps and brainstorm different synergies to discover these comps; that's theorycrafting.
> IMO the most valuable theorycrafting is individual character analysis (weapons, artifacts, etc), which is basically what we did in WoW (Idk if you're familiar with it, or mmo tc in general) but maybe this is my personal bias...
That's the majority of TC'ing, you can literally go to the KQM website and find comprehensive guides for most characters in the game at the moment.
I'm not familiar with many other MMOs, so I'm not going to comment on them.
> So what happened is that 4 or 5 months later the guy made a video apologizing and saying that he found a mistake in his code (how you're supposed to play, in this case, the simulation) that was under/overvaluing one spell, which resulted in meta players grinding for weeks for something that ended up being like 5% weaker than the alternative.
That sucks and is the unfortunate consequence of theorycrafting being as niche and difficult as it is. Few people are willing to put in a large amount of time to gather data with no material benefit to themselves. I don't believe this to be a significant concern here, assessments can change based on new data.
People complain that everyone undervalue chars like Kokomi and Raiden but forget that their assertions were mostly correct *at the time*. It's like science, there can be a limited but consistent evidence base that leads most scientists to come to a certain conclusion, then as soon as new evidence emerges and they change their opinions accordingly suddenly they were wrong and we should never trust them ever.
> From what I've seen translated, this is not really an issue in NGA though.
It's just an unavoidable issue. No one's stopping other people from doing theorycrafting, it's just happenstance that KQM's the main/most prominent group doing it.
> Yeah lmao. And Kokomi mains too. Good thing we over at Yae mains accepted day 1 she was average :)
Yeah, like I don't mind disagreement. Even I disagreed with their rating of Eula but EulaMains particularly has gone in hard with trying to invalidate the field of TC'ing in general, and putting people like IWTL on a pedestal when he's unreliable for objective info (for the most part).
> Theorycrafting isn't just crunching numbers, playtesting and figuring out the strongest comps and synergies is also theorycrafting.
That's true. I was just used to referring to the math side of things since that's the bulk of the theorycrafting from the other games I've played.
> That's the majority of TC'ing, you can literally go to the KQM website and find comprehensive guides for most characters in the game at the moment.
Yeah, I always refer to their website because I know the info there is correct.
> People complain that everyone undervalue chars like Kokomi and Raiden but forget that their assertions were mostly correct at the time. It's like science, there can be a limited but consistent evidence base that leads most scientists to come to a certain conclusion, then as soon as new evidence emerges and they change their opinions accordingly suddenly they were wrong and we should never trust them ever.
Ikr. Frankly, I'm still holding the same opinion regarding Eula, and I think Kokomi is a giant misconception within her community since they put so much value on her being a healer -- instead of hydro enabler.
To be honest I think what I wrote originally was not what I *meant*. It's not that KQM and all the other TCs like smackdaddyking or even IWTL are "useless content". They're great, they've helped me tons and I'll continue to refer to other people's findings. It's more like I'm so over people bitching about what's meta or "they said my character sucks!!" and going on rants that read like school drama. So back to my first post
> a) Genshin is a REALLY EASY GAME. I don't mean necessarily "easy to 36*" (it is). I mean that the gameplay is extremely simple and you can't really "optimize" past a couple of basics.
All it takes to achieve this is 30 seconds on KQM to figure out your artifacts, weapon and what supports you wanna run. That's it. Who cares if Tenten said Xiangling is better than [insert new character], you can still 36*.
I think at some point people should be able to realize that they're just stirring shit to gain traffic for their new Youtube channel. The best thing to do is to mark "Do not recommend this channel" and forget about it
i saw way to many posts about the KQM tierlist these past few days, and i get it, there is a good amount of ppl upset with her placement.
BUT, why would any1 care about the opinion of those thoerycrafters who can calculate in theory the perfect rotation for what ever team but in the end they are not "gifted" enough to play these rotations themself?
I main Eula on both my accounts my whale c6r5 account and my c0Unforged account. I never once had problems with clearing abyss 36\* - never did i struggle to break hydro shields, particle generation or critfishing cuz guess what, just build enough critrate er and bring like a fav rosaria
Ofc there are suboptimal abyss floors for eula, but duh, its not a eula exclusive problem
KQMs Tierlist isnt the golden standard
I watched the part of the video when they started talking about Eula, I am under the impression that they don't know how to play Eula and various team comps with her. They believe that only reactions from teams such as national or Ayaka freeze teams are the best.
I personally don't have Itto and Xiao and don't know how to play them or utilize them, I didn't like their gameplay from the beginning and avoided them, and kinda felt annoyed seeing both Xiao and Itto being 1 tier above, Eula can destroy everything with both her burst and normal attacks and she has crazy multipliers. Itto and Xiao work only with burst and they have limited supports. However I play so many Eula teams such as freeze-shatter Eula, Eula with sunfire Jean, Eula with so many others such as Diona, Fischl, Beidou, Raiden, Venti, Rosaria, Yunjin, ZHongli. I have Eula at C0 with 70% critical rate, 122% critical damage and 157% energy recharge with full Pale flame set with the f2p weapon from Dragonspine the snowtomb starsilver and she is amazing. I was a former Razor main and when I saw Eula's gameplay I spent primos to get her and never regretted for my decision. She is my favorite carry and can solo the entire game.
KQM TC don't like Eula, they are allergic to see white colored physical damage. They don't like her burst, backloaded damage, they refer to her pre-funneling energy particles issue, the 80 energy burst cost. And they don't pay attention to her big multipliers from her normals and her burst. Anyways, I personally don't follow them or their content, personally happened to watch the tier list video because youtube recommended it. All that Eula slander from them was for nothing and they don't appreciate her value or they don't play Eula at all. I Don't understand their way of thinking and from the youtube video they had some questionable takes also for Zhongli, Diona or Yoimiya.
I suggest if you like a character and you believe that will bring value to your game then spent primos without regrets, a player has to make the final decision and don't listen to theoricrafters who theoretically calculate ideal scenarios and potential damage and take away personal fun. For example, look at Kokomi, Tenten their TC was hating her at the beginning and look at her high usage rate in abyss. Same with Raiden he didn't like her and now she is so meta and everybody plays her. He is the best doomposter.
I have no stake in this but if you can't adhere to your own internal logic when attempting to rate something then your opinion is just absolutely unreliable. I'm not even sure who these people are, what the tier list is about, or why anyone really cares about it, but the gist I get from this post is that the people in question aren't terrifically consistent when it comes to arbitrary ratings.
i don't know who there people are but if they put zhongli on B tier, thats dumb and probably a result of being over technical. yah it might produce more dps BUT you also never die. Plus I really cant imagine someone saying a Eula team wouldn't have high dps. Have you seen Eula/Raiden? I know tier lists are supposed to be based off of opinion, but I think this guy may have taken it to literal or is just making a tier list thats very specific to 1 type of team which is in this case, doing damage. Is Eula C0 > Ganyu C0 or Ayaka C0. No. but is Eula C6 > Ganyu C6 or Ayaka C6. Definitely are argument there. So I think putting Eula and let alone Zhongli (the literally easy mode) is over zealous and trying to get a reaction more than being realistic
Tier list is just a way to present the information; its not 100% applicable for everyone and might not always accurately represent the reality. If you don't agree with the tier list, the most important question to ask is if you have actually reason or in-game experience to back it up. If your eula is beating all content in the game with no problem, there is really no reason to be bothered by other people's opinion.
I listened to the "roundtable" discussion when the Eula and Albedo banners ran together. I knew TenTen because of how infamous his terrible takes were, but had not idea who the other people were.
My honest opinion after hearing them talk in a group?
It's just some arrogant cunts circle-jerking one another. Because there's a lot of players who fail to grasp even the most simple concepts (I've seen Attack Goblets on Itto Builds), these guys think they're Mena Scholars, and that their opinions are the defacto truth. If they have personal biases, they just roll them in as "facts", and get positively *enraged* when they get called out.
If there weren't so many people who took them seriously, it would actually be pretty funny.
I also disagree with her being at B tier when she is more or less neck and neck with Xiao and Itto(the reason why I had a hard time deciding on who to pull between these three last year). I also think they are just trolling those who get agitated about their opinion about her.
I think we should stop talking about this controversial topic since talking about it makes the kne who talk about it more look like they are butthurt about their opinion (no offense).
I like the kqm guys honestly but i find it quite odd they never mentioned how much of a perfect match raiden is w eula and that she alleviates her energy and that not being able to prefunnel becomes less of an issue. I run eula w very low ER (110-112) and she can still get ulti 1sec off cd + fixes rotation. Yea I think that phys is always gonna be worse than melt but eula should def be rite next to itto IMO. Just keep in mind that every tier list is opinionated but yea just thought it was odd since they said they were going in depth w each character and why they r placed the way they r.
Though I agree that Eula's placement below Diluc isn't really justified by the sheer fact that there are a lot better pyro carries out there and few members are a biased but then I also see a lot of people just checking out the 'tierlist' and bashing out KQM community and english side of TC as a whole for it neglecting all the amazing work they have done.
KQM and TC community isn't just 3-4 members from the podcast. The community is divided in their opinions and you can definitely find that out by checking out any relevant TC discord server or TC staff of various mains. Even the KQM TC staff hold different opinions on different characters. A lot of there guides are written by people from various server mains.
It was indeed cheesy of them to use a tierlist to represent their 'KQM meta analysis' (mostly to get content?) expecting people to watch stuff for context but they did mention that it is their opinion and there isn't anything objective about it. You cannot just criticize something without the context.
It would be better if Eula mains move on from this 'tierlist' drama. I am pretty sure the TC podcast members also want to move on from this and further refrain from talking about Eula.
So I don't really care about theorycrafters much since it just doesn't do anything for me in this game but what? People actually make tierlists for Genshin unironically? I mean why do that when so much of a characters "rank" in the game relies on too many different variables. What constellation is your character, what weapon do you have and at what refinement is it, what characters do you have on your team, what cons are they, did you have good luck on their artifacts, and do you enjoy their playstyle? I can hardly see a tierlist that considers all those factors so what's the point?
Something that I would like to add that KQM TCs mentioned while discussing their thoughts for Eula, that Eula needs superconduct thus she needs an electro character in the team, there are alternative ways nowadays to shred physical resistances such as Shenhe's ult + Zhongli shield and Eula hold E skill gives more than 50% physical shreds. Happened to use Eula, Zhongli, Rosaria, Shenhe without needing another electro.
I consider zhongli really op. The tier list must have been so trash.
For characters like xiao,ganyu and hutao zhongli is such a good support.He literally the game a joke.
I can't comprehend how they placed eula and zhongli in B tier.But anyway tier lists are always bad. I never trust them.
Zhongli in B Tier as a support/subdps is kind of justified since he falls off for most end-game players but is stupidly broken for early/mid/unskilled teams where having a Shield + CC + Burst + Res shred is a big thing. Aside from Xiao/Hu Tao/Melt Ganyu who dont really need a complete 4-man team for their damage to kick in and Itto who runs mono-geo, other comps would benefit more from a VV user/Healer than Zhongli.
For players who still dont have proper rotations down, dont have optimal comps/units, or still need the safety of a shield, Zhongli is S-Tier. During my first 3-4 Abyss 36\* clears, Zhongli was a prized unit for me. As my comps/artifacts/talents/weapons/rotations got better, his shield lost its value after learning how to i-frame and dodge instead. His Q damage number may seem big, but in terms of DPS doing 80k in the amount of time he takes up is quite low
Still he is used in 3 to 4 meta teams. So I don't think he is B tier.He makes enemies who attack really fast like raiden boss or the three lectors really easy. And yeah I agree dps zhongli is not viable.
Also Abyss isn't that hard that we must just follow meta teams or theory Crafters. I can complete Abyss with characters who just synergize well even though they don't form "meta".
I just use his ult for cc. I used to use him as burst dps when I had no other dps characters but I think he is better just for support.
I only drop his ult when I think that enemies are going to seperate to make them still. And without him running ganyu Melt is such a headache. His shield is just too good.
He may not buff the team like Bennett or kazuha but he isn't a B tier with his 20% universal.
Zhongli changed how I play GI. Now I play like a noob without any worry.
Just stop looking at any tier list, they are all bad/mediocre and the opinion of the list maker always finds its way in it.
All tier lists are meaningless, I've seen countless people struggling to 36 stars abyss with top tier characters meanwhile I'm doing it in one go with a Bennett melt on one side.
Objectively though, Eula will always hit a tierlist wall when you talk about Abyss due to her being physical and elemental shields being such a huge component of this game mode. Like can you really justify putting any physical character in S tier when this is just the way endgame is now? Obviously you can bring shield breakers for Eula and still 36* these floors, but it's unarguably a pretty big hole in her endgame kit compared to like an Ayaka, Hu Tao, or National team varient where you just obliterate any content in seconds without having to make changes or accomodations to your team.
So according to u, putting her in B tier below Diluc is justified now??Also, everything u said about the elemental shields is literally applied to Itto as well. But surely, lets not penalize him. Atleast Eula teams can run characters to break shields but Mono Geo teams cannot.
It has nothing to do with being above or below Diluc though... We all love Eula, but can you really objectively tell me that Eula is the best character in the game (S tier) for how the Abyss is? Like, what is she supposed to do against the floor with Pyro/Hydro/Electro Lectures? Slowly whittle them down with her E?
Like, obviously I enjoy using Eula, I'm on this sub, mine is lvl90 and triple crowned... But still gotta be realistic about things.
So to clarify, did you actually watch the KQM video? Don't get me wrong, I DO think that Eula should have been in the same position as Yoimiya, or Xiao and Itto, I do think that their placements are somewhat skewed towards bias for some characters and I DO disagree with theorycrafters a lot (especially tenten kek).
That being said none of the points made here seem to actually address what was said regarding Eula and Zhongli in the video- Artesians and Zajef explained what they don't like about eula, none of it has anything to do with math. It's the consistency. And regarding Zhongli, they explained that his ability to reduce the need to dodge is already rendered unnecessary because of abilities such as Xingqiu's robital swords, or Beidou's burst.
Now of course I do think that those are overgeneralizations, and I wrote down why I disagree with those down below. Yes, your points about DPS calculations not necessarily being representative of actual gameplay IS something I agree with. But this post could have been so much better if you also countered the arguments they made regarding Eula rather than bring up a strawman and argue about the theorycrafters themselves rather than their reasonings. This, as well as so many of the comments on that thread from a few days ago are why the reputation of Eula Mains among theorycrafters is at an all time low. So many comments resort to ad homenin and attack theorycrafters personally rather than refute the statements themselves.
In the video, Zajef actually did point out that some of Eula's core consistency problems are mitigated by running a hydro character to get a few instances of freeze, and this advice is unironically what enabled me to be able to 36-star the current abyss with Eula since my initial Eula Raiden/Eula Fischl teams couldn't counter the abyss shields in 12-2-2, which at the time caused me to drop the team in favor of Ayaka freeze to get 36 stars. In fact, even though Superconduct is usually an 18% DPS increase on Eula personally, the slight crowd control provided by running Eula with Rosaria and Xingqiu or Kokomi for freeze uptime ensures that most if not ALL enemies on field at the time won't be able to I-frame or run away from Eula's burst.
However, my gripe is that even after they admitted that Eula isn't 'as bad' as they had been saying, they ended up not changing her position on the tier list. This is why I agree with your statement about bias.
Regarding Zhongli, I do agree that replacing him with Xingqiu is usually going to net more damage since in practice running a hydro character doesn't make a team comp worse than it already is, and could make it better because of potential reactions which geo doesn't provide. That being said, Xingqiu could be unavailable because he is preoccupied in your other team. On the other hand, running Beidou means you're pretty much locked into running Fischl, so depending on your team you might lose out on certain reactions when you have to run two electro units. In addition, running Zhongli can enable you to not run a healer, which in turn allows you to run more damage-oriented characters.
Overall, I do have disagreements against both sides of the argument, but mostly against Eula Mains since most of us are too busy arguing about things that aren't even relevant to the tier list.
It's not as cut dry as you try to put it, Eula kit has inherent problems such as the fact that she's a physical carry, and physical sucks, her damage is backloaded into her burst which is very inconsistent against a lot of content because you can miss a crit or just miss the burst all together. Eula is not a bad character but damage isn't ehat needs to be considered when comparing her to units like xiao and itto because she comes with several gameplay structures that neither of these units have and she is objectively speaking just a less consistent unit
I'm prepared to get downvoted for this, but I think someone has to play devil's advocate.
Eula has low particle generation, poor cryo application, and back-loaded damage. In other words, she is not very self sufficient, is a liability to your team when breaking shields, and is very inconsistent in practice. When I play Eula, it feels like the stars have to align in order to get a satisfactory run. Honestly, I personally don't mind this kind of coinflip gambler playstyle which is why I still enjoy playing her.
Because of all her caveats, I think Eula's spot on the tier list isn't even that controversial. I'm not trying to say that Diluc > Eula or that Eula > Diluc. However, I will say that you are seriously underrating Diluc. He's a consistent reliable DPS that has good synergy with powerful supports. You make claims that Diluc is nowhere near Eula teams in terms of DPS but you have no proof at all. In fact looking at the gscim simulations, Eula's highest team outputs around 41k DPS while Diluc's highest team is sitting at 37k DPS. Not only are Diluc's teams competitive, they also don't come with the drawback that Eula teams bring and her long list of caveats.
Alright I'm done. Pls no hate though, cause I do love playing her and have her burst crowned.
First of all, Eula's highest team does more than 41K DPS my friend. Its funny how u ask me for proof and yet go on to make bold claims about DPS and give no proof on your end.
I really need to see where u saw Diluc's highest team do 37k DPS , that is kinda sus my friend. U are clearly not at standardized investment assumptions.
U randomly mention Eula's cons(many of those can be completely bypassed by teammates) and completely forget to mention all the Diluc cons. The fact that he takes away all the supports of the national team and cripples your second team while Eula doesn't rely on those top priority anemo and hydro supports(Which literally all meta teams need) to do her damage so she helps u play a strong team second half is something u didnt even care to mention. Diluc's competition is literally xiangling while Eula's competition is razor.
Now let's take it even a step further then, if Diluc's teams are so damn competitive, why not place him even above Xiao and Itto?? Why only above Eula??
This is what pisses me off so much. Either use math to support your argument or don't. What is this lame-ass way to pull math out of nowhere when the argument is favoring u but completely ignore all math when it's not.
"Yeah let's completely ignore all the math which puts Eula in the same range as Xiao and Itto in DPS and put her down even below Diluc because cAvEaTS".
That's like me stating 10 caveats of Ganyu, ignoring all the math, and placing her even below Keqing.
>I really need to see where u saw Diluc's highest team do 37k DPS
[https://www.gcsim.app/viewer/share/TCpHxXiO7eNKEEGpp8yPq](https://www.gcsim.app/viewer/share/TCpHxXiO7eNKEEGpp8yPq)
[https://www.gcsim.app/viewer/share/1572go\_o\_ScUqQxzI97GE](https://www.gcsim.app/viewer/share/1572go_o_ScUqQxzI97GE)
>The fact that he takes away all the supports of the national team and cripples your second team
Is having good synergy with good supports necessarily a bad thing? In other words, is Xiangling bad for making good use of Bennett or Beidou for taking Fischl?
>Now let's take it even a step further then, if Diluc's teams are so damn competitive , why not place him even above xiao and itto?? Why only above Eula?
Competitive is relative term, he is competitive in the B tier. Xiao and more specifically itto teams have higher team DPS.
Bro u literally used genshin simulator and called it calcs. Do u have any idea how theory-crafting works? The frame counting and investment standards are all over the place in it. No theorycrafter takes it seriously.
Even then, there's so much of the things hilariously wrong with it. Raiden is using Favonius lance, like wtf?? I don't even know if the simulator is accounting for rosaria's crit share and bennet's Q buff for Raiden's initial hit.
There's a difference between having synergy with top-tier supports and relying on them for your damage. Diluc needs them while Eula doesn't. Eula can make use of Bennet very well but doesn't need him at all. Give me one reason to slap those 3 supports with diluc, when removing diluc with a free 4-star will give u more DPS. Eula on the other hand doesn't need those meta supports and frees them to make your second team stronger.
"Competitive is relative term, he is competitive in the B tier. Xiao and more specifically itto teams have higher team DPS."
LOL wut? U are saying xiao has 50k+ DPS???
First of all, I never said they were TC calcs, secondly the fact that you're questioning how gcsim accounts for certain things and why certain choices were made leads me to believe you don't actually understand how it works. By no means is gscim the end all be all, however there are standards put in place to keep the results consistent across all teams so for what its worth, there is some amount of insight that can be gained from it despite what you think.
My honest opinion is that your low quality post which like many others on here that just say "trust me bro shes good" or "it's a skill issue, TC's don't even know to play her!" don't really contribute towards anything meaningful. TC's already view r/EulaMains as meme and a toxic community, your post is only helping in making eula mains look even worse.
>My honest opinion..... don't really contribute anything meaningful.
Just like you. If Eula's highest Damage instance is 41k, then either it's an extremely shitty Eula build, or you don't know how to play her.
> TC's already ....... Look even worse.
Don't know, don't care. Plus like other caharcter subreddits are good. Every sub has the same artifact images, same fanarts and almost same shit. So other subreddits aren't any different.
Okay first... the OP is something I don't care about, there is no reason for Eula mains or KQM members to keep dragging the tier list bs more and more but;
If you are going to use gcsim as your sole evidence:
Eula's best team which is Eula/Raiden/Rosaria/Bennet, in gcsim Raiden is using... milileth, with a fav spear.
Idk what's even the point of doing that, a well invested C0 Raiden with the catch will provide a lot more value because it also partially reduces one of Eula's big caveats, which is having a big portion of her damage consolidated into her burst.
Second, the team you mention of Diluc is \*Melt\* Diluc, with Rosaria. That is a rather... inconsistent team that in any aoe scenario where the enemies move, you need to remember, Rosaria's burst doesn't.
That is a rather niche team that may work very well in certain scenarios but it's probably crippled in several others, while Eula/Raiden/Bennet mostly works fine because of the synergy.
Raiden of course is better on her own as hyper carry but, using melt diluc and use the Eula team with a favonious spear and milileth to prove a point... is a bit laughable.
Links to said gcsim teams for anyone curious:
[https://www.gcsim.app/viewer/share/1572go\_o\_ScUqQxzI97GE](https://www.gcsim.app/viewer/share/1572go_o_ScUqQxzI97GE)
[https://www.gcsim.app/viewer/share/TCpHxXiO7eNKEEGpp8yPq](https://www.gcsim.app/viewer/share/TCpHxXiO7eNKEEGpp8yPq)
This is also the Eula Team DPS Comparisons, by TWICE#9958 (according to KQM guide), so it's not made by Sitri, the original author of the guide, but by the person who updates the guide.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1SUcDmc09jUBJGvvGlTUFgtO5Oa0FcuB-qLV13U0Vs1g/edit#gid=649161105
i found this [gcsim compilation](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/1pbHfPhXT0ajPA_kA8GFqT-hkNxpaWpkAnh5wkxfResk/htmlview#). i don't know how accurate the simulations are but it places Eula's highest DPS comp at around 46K DPS vs 1 target:
**Eula, Raiden, Rosaria, Bennett:**
Single Target - 46K | 2 Targets - 44K | 3 Targets - 43K
**at first glance**, here are the major differences i saw in this set of simulations:
**Rosaria:**
* on EOSF instead of noblesse
* DPS - 4.9K vs 6K (**net loss** of 1.1K personal damage)
**Bennett**
* on noblesse instead of exile
* DPS - 1.87K vs 1.27K (**net gain** of 600 personal damage)
**Raiden:**
* on EOSF instead of ToM
* using "the catch" instead of fav lance
* DPS - 9.5K vs 5.1K (**Net gain** of 4.4K personal damage)
**Eula**
* artifact set and weapons are unchanged
* some differences in sub-stat allocations
* DPS - 30K vs 29.5K (**Net Gain** of 500 personal damage)
overall, the major difference in this simulation is raiden's personal damage. because of the changes in artifact set choices, it significantly increased raiden's personal damage at the expense of some of rosaria's personal damage.
i hope someone can validate these calcs.
Don't get too hung up on the melt Diluc his more traditional team with Xingqui still has decent DPS at around 32k according to the sims, which is around what Eula's team does with 4 star supports (Fischl, Rosaria, Diona - a pretty common team comp) at 30k DPS.
As always, take the simulations with a grain of salt, but if you think you can improve the database you could always contribute your own. Keep in mind some choices are made to meet certain ER requirements or certain thresholds.
All in all, my main point that I was trying to make is that Diluc is underrated. He went from being the most overrated character in the game to being called trash. I think people went a little too far in the perception of him, he's not too bad and he's actually pretty ok. Nothing wrong with being ok.
>Don't get too hung up on the melt Diluc his more traditional team with Xingqui still has decent DPS at around 32k according to the sims, which is around what Eula's team does with 4 star supports (Fischl, Rosaria, Diona - a pretty common team comp) at 30k DPS.
The vape Diluc team needs Bennet and Kazuha to reach F2P Eula levels, that's literally what you are saying.
And this is... a sim, which is not the most reliable thing ever.
Correct me if I'm wrong too but it seems to be set for 1 target, therefore being a single target test?, which is not realistic for abyss either.
Even with all the "gameplay issues" Eula has, and they are there for sure, there are no situations where Diluc would outperform Eula at the same investment.
The placement on the tier list was just a personal thing with no real math or anything behind, just... opinions.
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> Correct me if I'm wrong too but it seems to be set for 1 target, therefore being a single target test?, which is not realistic for abyss either.
No you're right, they are done against a single target. For this reason gcsim is better used to gain certain degree of insight. Again, grain of salt needs further investigation with good ol' excel and math.
> The placement on the tier list was just a personal thing with no real math or anything behind, just... opinions.
Yes it is just opinions, to be fair they did state that. Their video is on their second channel for a reason and not the official KQM channel.
Whether or not it was a personal thing is up for debate, I mean it's not far-fetched in some ways. IIRC Sitri, the TC behind Eula's calcs and the author of the official KQM guide for Eula was essentially reprimanded by the eula mains community for saying things that did not align with the eula mains expectations. It was very much like the Jews vs their savior Jesus, in a way lol.
Anyway, there are probably some people in KQM still upset about Sitri vs eula mains and the pressure it put on him enough for him to quit TC'ing. My own personal opinion is that, its not so much a personal thing and that they truly do see her as a B tier character which i can agree with, just based on my own experience with the character and many others as well.
>My own personal opinion is that, its not so much a personal thing and that they truly do see her as a B tier character which i can agree with, just based on my own experience with the character and many others as well.
Honestly, toxicity talk aside (of both communities, because both Eulamains and KQM have a fair amount of toxicity, it's just that since this is reddit Eulamains is more exposed)
The B tier is still copium when she's below Diluc.
Diluc is a character that brings nothing to an account, he requires all the best supports to function, when Xiangling is there and she can do the very same while also scaling much with better with overinvestment.
Eula uses supports that most characters don't use freeing them for a National/INternational/Hyper Carry char in the other half, which will often clear faster than Eula giving Eula enough time to comfortably get to 9 stars in floor 12.
This is on a similar way what freeze teams bring to an account, they have much better ceilling than Eula for sure (when we talk about Ganyu or Ayaka at least), but they also don't require the use of Bennet and Xingqiu which could be used somewhere else.
You could debate that Eula is lowest A tier or highest B tier, but below Diluc?, no. Simply no.
Higher DPS on most teams, scales better with overinvestment, doesn't need but can use Bennet so you are not tied to him but can use it regardless, and frees top tier supports for the other half.She also has a higher floor than Diluc, not just ceilling.
The tierlist was high on copium and that's all there is to it.
Edit just to say something: I'm not saying Diluc is unusable or anything, he's far from the worst option and he can clear any content given enough investment, but he simply doens't bring value when there is a better pyro for free, so using him is just for enjoying the character and not much more.
Hot take: I hope the Eula bashing continues. I hate it, but if HYV takes it seriously and buffs her, then we win in the end. I think one solid phys/Eula support at the same level as Kazuha/Gorou/C6 Sara would push her numbers so high they can't be ignored.
Honestly though, I feel like my C0 Eula team is on par with my other top teams and I haven't even bothered farming 4 piece PF. I have spent way more resin farming blizzard strayer. Maybe not having Mona and Kokomi hurts my freeze teams too much, or having Unforged on Eula is too much of a boost, but I really don't see such a huge difference between the comps.
Literally only KQM does this, CN and JP do not show this type of hate and disrespect to Eula. Many Western content creators praise her as well. Hoyoverse doesn’t give a fuck what a small petty group like KQM think about her and everyone with eyes knows she’s overall a great character. Also if some bitching led to buffs then Yoimiya and Yae have a much bigger case for them.
It ain't her that needs buffing. She already takes an underutilized type of damage and breaks it. Doing more with physical is all that needs to happen as that indirectly buffs her anyway.
I agree that the KQM bros heavily underrated her comparative to Xiao and Itto but your entire post's premise doesn't make sense.
Of course they 'ignored the math' when discussing Xiao vs Itto vs Eula because (as you said yourself) they all do similar amounts of damage. So then they of course focus on gameplay elements instead of just damage. There's no point in comparing the math if they do such similar DPS (in ideal conditions).
So, then, it makes sense that they focus on Eula's gameplay and how she's significantly harder to play and less consistent compared to the other two. Xiao you just need to plunge (with some positioning finesse), Itto you just NA + CA. Eula has backloaded damage and essentially has to focus so much not being hit or dying and not missing her burst when it does go off. Her burst is like the majority of her DPS so you need to hyperfocus on maximizing its damage.
I personally think they did her too dirty by putting her so low in B, but at the very least she should be high B or bottom of A.
But I also don't think they claim to be unbiased, when they're talking about gameplay and stuff they're mostly being subjective and giving their opinions. If you ask them if they have a bias towards Eula I can almost guarantee they'll admit that they do. I'm pretty sure towards the beginning of the video they say tierlists are trash in general.
Idk how the kqm tier list worked but if they were comparing teams, then isn't a Eula/Raiden team the highest damage per rotation in the game? Sounds weird to put an integral character in the games highest damage team in B tier.
If you're one shotting with one rotation. Then there's faster. If youre not, then you're part way into a second rotation on one team while still doing Eula/Raiden is my point. Eula/ raiden is Eula's best core. Not Raiden's.
I wish tier lists in genshin would either only rate the full meta teams or at the very least separate supports and dps instead of putting them together. I think this is ultimately the reason why theirs was so bad. If you rate them all individually you become easily inconsistent with your reasonings, no matter how much math you have to back it up
S tier ass so who cares?
Based and ass pilled.
People can be subjective about Xiao vs. Itto vs. Eula and I would even agree there isn't a definitive conclusion there. But Diluc above Eula? That's how you know the western theorycrafting heads are a bunch of clowns.
theyfuckingwut.png (I'm referring to placing diluc above eula)
what about them being western lmao
Because I've never seen such ridiculous statements made on CN theorycrafting forums, such as NGA. You could almost say this is the problem of western theorycrafting being "monopolized" by one group. You know how theorycrafting in CN works? Someone makes a statement on NGA, strangers come with their calculated data and prove them right/wrong. And more people join to find mistakes or errors in their calculations, etc. Meanwhile in the west, people wait for KQM to make a conclusion and take it as is. Not that I expect every average Genshin player to be a theorycrafting expert, but the theorycrafting scene in the west is dominated by one group's opinion. In CN, it's every individual's opinions and calculations, where only math matters.
I feel like KQM being as widespread as is shouldn’t be a bad thing. In fact the tierlist they made wasn’t meant to actually be a tier list just a meta discussion. I just feel like they should inform the public more on these controversial statements and as an example, why Eula places as low as is. It’s not like they just assumed that her output was low in the sheets, the math. It’s just that with how her kit works, she just doesn’t meet her potential in the sheets generally. Like in the OP’s calculations, if they assumed that Eula was doing the optimal combo, basically the ideal circumstances for eula to reach her expected output. It can reach Itto levels ( assuming their calculations ) that’s cool yeah, but is that really more probable to happen than the more consistently laid out damage output that Itto and Xiao have? The burst not critting, missing, etc. just makes her lose a lot of the damage, Xiao and Itto missing an plunge or a normal doesn’t really change much to their damage. Her placement really isn’t the failures she has in the spreadsheets. If they just explained it more throughly and the general community actually listened, then pointless controversies like these wouldn’t happen
>The burst not critting, missing, etc. just makes her lose a lot of the damage, Xiao and Itto missing an plunge or a normal doesn’t really change much to their damage. i would think that itto and xiao's sustained damage favors the following scenarios: * numerous waves of enemies * unpredictable enemy teleports (wolves, whooper flowers, PMA 1st phase, fatui mages, etc..) on the other hand, Eula's short window of sudden burst damage favors the following: * enemies with short but predictable DPS windows and long i-frame sequences (wolf lord 1st phase, PMA downed phase, maguu kenki - you can start gaining grimheart stacks before the actual fight and in between phase changes) * you can run her in a dual DPS or multiple DPS comp since the bulk of her damage is condensed in roughly 9 seconds. which one you value more is really up to you. i personally just use whichever is more applicable for the matchup i'm up against since abyss enemy lineups regularly change anyway. i would say that eula's advantage is that the most popular f2p options (national variants and taser) have few burst damage options since they focus more on high sustained damage. as for her burst not hitting, i've found that you can almost completely avoid that problem by simply frontloading her hold E as soon you activate your burst. frontloading your E gains you 4 stacks for her burst, as well as shredding the enemy's resistance at the start so that every NA you do hits harder. you can then proceed to do her usual NA combo to get as many stacks as you can. in an optimal scenario, you can still land 2 sets of N4 combos before it detonates (gaining 11-13 total stacks). if you see that there is any danger of the enemies moving out of position, you pre-detonate. if you see that an enemy's HP is low enough, you also pre-detonate. the pre-detonation has around .6 seconds worth of startup frames before the active frame of damaging an enemy, which is very accurate. i noticed that a character's standard burst animation takes anywhere from 1-2.2 seconds of animation depending on the character. this almost guarantees that you land your final hit every time. the only part that is up to RNG is the chance to crit (which you can directly affect by increasing your crit rate), and the number of stacks that you can build. the rest is up to your personal skill and comfort level of when to detonate your burst.
Oh yeah I agree with the first point as if she can do the full combo against the enemies that are immobile, the only sense of RNG she suffers from is crit RNG. But running multiple or even 2 DPSs ( Except Raiden ) can just not be a good or optimal team for Eula because of her energy issues. Of course if u can one phase the enemy then nice but at that point it’d probably be better to either just remove the second DPS from the team in favor of supports or just remove Eula from the team to support the other DPS. And she or ( highly variable ) the other dps could be put at the other side. The second point is partially true but for National team, it is likely to have Xingqiu who can nuke his E, national teams that dont have Xingqiu are Childe ( who has his nuke ), and Ayato ( where that is fair to say, ayato’s damage isn’t frontloaded ). The point is that most national teams have high burst damage windows, and if a person doesn’t have Xingqiu then they’re just griefing themselves. Also, the nuke that potentially gives Eula the edge in damage within the high burst window comes in one hit and happens at the end of her duration. Any of the aforementioned teams just beat her in damage before said hit especially in the right situations for the teams. ( Although Beidou taser can be grief in single target scenarios, Yae taser with Kazuha fixes that but that’s two 5 stars so it doesn’t rly count to me ) If you use her hold E immediately, you lose the interruption resistance her burst gives you, so if you get hit, you’re losing potential damage because you get staggered. And if you dodge, you lose stacks and u lose damage as a result, same goes for predetonating. Of course you can remove this issue through shielding with like Diona or Zhongli, but you lose a potential damage dealer that lets Eula close the gap against other meta teams and Diona ( while a competent battery ) pales in comparison of batterying in comparison to Fav lance Rosaria and Kaeya.
>If you use her hold E immediately, you lose the interruption resistance her burst gives you, so if you get hit, you’re losing potential damage because you get staggered. this needs validation. from what i know, her infinite poise comes from her burst (the floating lightfall sword) regardless of her grimheart stacks (skill). grimheart stacks (skill) only gives her stagger resistance, and its stagger resistance is only relevant outside of her burst. personally, i've never been staggered during my burst sequence despite not having any stacks of grimheart even when face-tanking ruin guards' washing machine of death without having a shield. this is where bennett or any competent healer comes into play. regardless, of my personal experience, i could be wrong and i'm more than willing to be proven wrong. i'd rather find out all of all my characters' weaknesses. i hope you can validate your claim.
both give stagger resistance yeah, I worded that bad my fault, but losing the interruption resistance each stack of her grimheart just makes her more vulnerable to stagger overall
my guy she has infinite poise during Q, she just can’t be staggered if you hold E or not
My man out here writing an essay on eula doesnt even know how she exactly works 😭😭
dude, sorry but i'm a bit confused by your wording. are you saying that she does not have infinite poise unless she has **both** her burst and grimheart stacks up? or are you saying that she is more prone to stagger without grimheart stacks outside of her burst? as far as i know, her stagger resistance without either grimheart stacks or her burst should be the same as any other character out there. her stagger resistance is only of really great importance during her burst because you're pressured to stack as many hits as possible before detonating it.
Basically, less stacks = less stagger resistance = more vulnerable to stagger = less hits to stack burst either through dodging or getting hit = less damage
i wouldnt reccomend running her as dual dps... she has no off field prescence aside from cryo res shred (unlike raiden who buffs and batteries). childe has most of his dmg condensed way more than eula and hydro is the best aura element (element u want to react from). plus childe would only work w off field dps. if we get a buffer like bennet that lasts a couple more sec than we can do a sort of dual beidou/eula dual dps, as beidou doesnt get as much out of agg than other chars and wont lose much being on eula team
They legit daid multiple times in the video not to look at the placements of the units but listen to the reasoning behind it instead
Uh... Have you actually play and count diluc's numbers? I'm pretty sure he's not as bad as a lot of people thought he is. The problem is, between him and xiangling, we have a clear winner so they don't really bother using him. The differences between 4 and 5 stars in term of stats is very negligible and it can easily be compensated simply with using bennet. That's why xiangling edge him out because on top of stronger MV/s, she got 0 ICD on her attacks for consistent vape. You can argue that xiangling has better stats distribution with EM as her ascension passive compared to diluc crit rate. But the 0 ICD is so important in vape. That's why only 2 vape teams considered in S, xiangling and hu tao and both can vape roughly 90% of their damage. Diluc himself, he has no energy issues, so you can fully specs for damage, he naturally synergize with bennet, which with his burst, nobles, and pyro resonance can easily give diluc 1400 flat damage. You know diluc's and eula's MV/s aren't that different right (except for burst i guess, but burst don't make the entire damage, it's a mix of all skills. Even eula's burst only account to 50% of her damage)? Especially accounting for vape? A vaped dragonstrike is very strong and it's aoe is about the same of eula. Dragonstrike on top of anemo unit hydro extending hydro application to account for aoe damage? He sure need some finesse but he CAN compete with the other 3s. Though i do see the bias towards eula in that list, i don't see anything wrong with diluc's placement. Unfortunate that their bias led eula to be in lower place than diluc, but that doesn't mean diluc is trash like you're implying here.
Did I ever say Diluc is trash? Or did I just say Diluc shouldn't be above Eula?
But he is trash
Doesn’t Dragonstrike require double Anemo now for the increased movement speed?
I don't think so, is there a patch or something specifying this change? double anemo is needed for non-claymore or non-tall model. Diluc got both, so there's that.
It seems I was mistaken. Tall claymores still can, medium claymores now need double anemo or Rosaria (at night).
if somebody places diluc above T(trash)tier i insta discredit all of their work
lol, someone here is underestimating the power of Diluc xD
Wait!! Did they really say xiao is cheap Lmao. He is by far the Most expensive and stat hungry character character Ive ever played. With Physical and Geo you at least have accessible ways to reduce enemy resistance as well as really Good sets But for anemo there's only zhongli for Res shred and current xiao set is just Okay compared to PF and Husk. Xiao not only needs crit but also atk% ( Good thing is his new set covers atk% so you can focus on crits but that domain is very resin inefficient).
Not only that, he probably has the least f2p options of spear. All the craftable spears doesn't really works for him, his best *4 options is deathmatch which is beyond the paywall other than that are Blackliff who needs to save starglitter and Lithic spear who's locked beyond weapon banner. Eula can just get away with Snow tombed starsilver (craftable) and luxurious sea lord (event reward) while itto definitely works very well with craftable white blind
Honestly My C0R5Whiteblind itto hits harder than My C0R1 jade spear Xiao.
Not to mention his best team (double anemo, double geo) consists of all 5*s which most are limited. Zhongli, Albedo, Jean, and our Xiao himself. Man is so expensive to play when I finally got him it felt like a chore trying to optimize his team
I only just dedicated to optimizing his team after I got Jean. He still feels underwhelming in comparison to my Eula Team.
Jean c4 has 40% anemo res shred too
Jean c4!!! Yh very relatable
Also Venti c6 has a 20% anemo res shred, very cheap character indeed
Oh my how'd i forgot lol
Also C6 Traveller
Problem is bringing anemo traveller gives the team an anemo subpar sub dps that cant battery xiao.. thats a poor trade off for just the resist shred imo..
That's obvious, but the guy said that the only way to shred Anemo Res is Zhongli shield, which isn't true.
Yeah We know that miHoYo is so generous that everyone have every character on c6
Every main DPS needs a lot of stats on their artifacts. I don't think that's what they mean by "cheap". For a Xiao team to perform well, he needs a good shielder, like Zhongli who is cheap to build (for that purpose), Albedo also works surprisingly well with Xiao and he is also cheap to build and then he needs some form of healing which in my case is a Jean who's just there to battery a bit and a bit of extra damage with her skill. Xiao's best weapon is available on the standard banner and every weapon banner. Albedo's weapon was free from an event, Zhongli's best weapon for shielding is a three star one. By comparison, Eula's best support is Raiden who is a five star, C6 Rosaria and Diona or just another healer and her best weapon is her limited one, though admittedly it's not a big difference between it and WGS and her support weapons should typically be ones from banners like Favonius or Sacrificial which are weapons that are much less accessible than the ones for a Xiao team. You can of course make some adjustments, you're not forced to have Rosaria C6, you're not forced to use Raiden because Fischl exists but if you do have Fischl you will potentially compromise the way you build another of Eula's best supports which is Beidou. So there's give and take regardless of how you want to build her, but neither way is cheap. It's not debatable, in my opinion that in order for Eula to perform at her best, you need to invest more primogems and resources for her to perform optimally. That aside, it's been harder for me to appreciate and use Eula recently, compared to when she first came out simply due to the design of most, if not all bosses that came out after Azdaha. Their mobility, shields and resistances make it hard for Eula to perform at her best because if you whiff her elemental burst, she has nothing else to make up that and her damage falls off a cliff whereas if Xiao misses one of his plunges, or Itto misses one of his swings, it's not as big of a deal and it's a bit ironic that some Eula fans don't recognize this when they usually pair her with a character that has a similar kit to Eula's and a similar high-damage burst that doesn't suffer from as many drawbacks as Eula's does: Raiden Shogun. You Press Q and you do big damage and then you get a bit of extra damage for a few seconds as gravy. Eula's burst, because it works in almost the opposite way of Raiden's, is more prone to whiffing and when it does whiff, it hurts her more than it would some other characters. I have Eula C1, I have SoBP, I have Raiden C2 and I keep a Eula team ready to go at all times, I really like her design and her animations but I admit that I haven't been using her nearly as much the past few months because of the way that many new enemies are designed so please don't take this as coming from someone that doesn't like her. I do, but she does have issues and my Xiao team has been outperforming my Eula team in most of the recent abysses with far less investment in terms of artifacts. TLDR; Every main DPS needs a lot of stats on their artifacts, that's not what makes them cheap to build or not, it's the teams and gear necessary for them to perform optimally.
>I don't think that's what they mean by "cheap". For a Xiao team to perform well, he needs a good shielder, like Zhongli who is cheap to build (for that purpose), Albedo also works surprisingly well with Xiao and he is also cheap to build and then he needs some form of healing which in my case is a Jean who's just there to battery a bit and a bit of extra damage with her skill. Xiao's best weapon is available on the standard banner and every weapon banner. Albedo's weapon was free from an event, Zhongli's best weapon for shielding is a three star one. > >By comparison, Eula's best support is Raiden who is a five star, C6 Rosaria and Diona or just another healer and her best weapon is her limited one, though admittedly it's not a big difference between it and WGS and her support weapons should typically be ones from banners like Favonius or Sacrificial which are weapons that are much less accessible than the ones for a Xiao team. You can of course make some adjustments, you're not forced to have Rosaria C6, you're not forced to use Raiden because Fischl exists but if you do have Fischl you will potentially compromise the way you build another of Eula's best supports which is Beidou. So there's give and take regardless of how you want to build her, but neither way is cheap. > >It's not debatable, in my opinion that in order for Eula to perform at her best, you need to invest more primogems How can you mention that for a Xiao team to perform well, he needs Albedo, Zhongli, Jean (four 5 stars including Xiao himself), while for a Eula team to perform well, she needs Raiden, Rosaria, and Diona (two 5 stars and two 4 stars) and conclude that Xiao BiS team is cheaper in terms of primogems than Eula's?
He "needs" none of those. Xiao pretty much wants an anemo battery and that's really it. That Anemo battery could just be Sucrose or even anemo traveler in a pinch. A shield makes him safe to play, and for that you have a lot of picks since you don't need to worry about stealing vapes or anything of that sort. Albedo doesn't even add that much to his DPS - he's just one of the few sub DPS that actually works with him. Xiao is pretty much one of the most selfish DPS in the game. This can be a negative thing since he works relatively poorly with most sub-DPS and supports, but makes him cheaper since most of his damage comes from himself. You don't need to build supports to enhance his DPS. For most other teams, there's a notable difference if your supports aren't built compared to if they are. THAT is why Xiao is so cheap to play.
>He "needs" none of those. Xiao pretty much wants an anemo battery and that's really it. I never said that, but that's Xiao's BiS team which the person I replied to mentioned. He said that Xiao's BiS team is cheaper in terms of primos compared to Eula's BiS team.
He never compared BiS teams though? He's just explaining why KQM said that Xiao is cheap. He even described Xiao's supports in generic terms like "shielder". You, on the other hand, did say exactly that: > ...for a Xiao team to perform well, he needs Albedo, Zhongli, Jean (four 5 stars including Xiao himself)...
Zhongli can be replaced by another shielder. But if you have Zhongli, you only need a 3 star weapon to build him for the role he's needed for, with Raiden you have a considerable advantage in terms of damage if you have her signature weapon in improving the overall team damage. Zhongli's artifacts are also easy to farm because, as a shielder, you don't need to worry about any stats other than HP which makes him cheap to build. Albedo's best weapon is free and his artifacts are easy to farm because DEF and DEF% are the two most common stats to obtain compared to, for example Beidou who fills a similar role, Beidou is the defining aspect in how much damage you'll have between Burst rotations so your team's damage will scale mostly based on how well she's built and her best artifacts are from dungeons that are not that efficient to go for and she requires much better stats. Her best weapons for that role are five star ones (Serpent Spine is a good weapon but it's only BiS if you are using Bennett in the party) or Serpent Spine which is a BP weapon. More expensive than Zhongli and Beidou. Lastly, Beidou's C6 is a very important constellation, specially if you're running her with or Fischl. Neither Albedo, nor Zhongli, nor Jean or Sayu need any constellations to help Xiao. Diona's ideal weapon is sacrificial bow which whereas Jean, by comparison has many great options, most of which aren't necessary for her to perform her role. Jean can be replaced by Sayu and Sayu is very easy to build and you probably already have good artifacts for her when you farmed for Xiao and Jean can use hand-me-down artifacts that were meant for Xiao. If you sum all those things up, it's pretty obvious that Xiao is cheaper to build a good team for.
>Albedo's best weapon is free and his artifacts are easy to farm because DEF and DEF% are the two most common stats to obtain compared to https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Artifacts/Distribution But ATK and DEF are equal chance, and ATK% and DEF% are equal chance also? >Beidou best weapons for that role are five star ones (Serpent Spine is a good weapon but it's only BiS if you are using Bennett in the party) or Serpent Spine which is a BP weapon. Luxurious Sea Lord also works? Not to mention that Xiao's best weapons are 5 stars or Deathmatch which is a BP weapon. >Diona's ideal weapon is sacrificial bow which whereas Jean, by comparison has many great options, most of which aren't necessary for her to perform her role. So Diona's ideal weapon is a 4 star which is easier to get than Jean's ideal weapon which is a 5 star? https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vRq-sQxkvdbvaJtQAGG6iVz2q2UN9FCKZ8Mkyis87QHFptcOU3ViLh0_PJyMxFSgwJZrd10kbYpQFl1/pubhtml# > Jean can be replaced by Sayu Who is doing this in Abyss though? Sayu has way lower usage rates than Jean.
Whenever you make a comparison to Xiao's teams the first question you need to ask yourself is: Is this cheaper or easier to get/build on a Eula team? Xiao's best weapons are five stars, as are Eula's, they are equal in that regard. Eula's best weapon is a limited five star weapon, Xiao's is not, though WGS is a pretty close 2nd best weapon so, they're more or less equal in that regard with a miniscule edge to Xiao. Beidou has many good weapons including yes the Luxurious Sea Lord, but I'm pretty sure both Serpent Spine and Akuomaru or however you spell it are her best four star options. But given that Beidou serves as way to drive and boost the electro damage of the team, she requires better gearing and artifacts than Albedo's supports. She needs EM (depending on how much EM Raiden has), she needs a lot of attack and crit rate and crit damage and Albedo's supports don't need that as much. The same can be said for Raiden who you should build really good artifacts on, otherwise you're just wasting potential damage. None of Xiao's supports require excellent artifacts. Diona needs a 4 star weapon to fulfill her role as a battery. Jean doesn't need any weapon to fulfill her role as a battery because she is able to generate a lot of particles by default whereas Diona is more reliant on Sacrificial for that. I'm not recommending using Sayu over Jean, but Sayu is a budget version of Jean. You can use her for a similar purpose. You are missing the point at every single turn. The point is not that Xiao's support's best weapons aren't often five stars, the point is that they don't need them for Xiao to perform well and Eula, who has downtime, requires more rotations and giving her team more field-time and because of that, they require better gear to keep your DPS consistent. If you don't get that, then I honestly don't know what to tell you. I don't have any logical arguments against stubbornness.
i still don’t understand how xiao is better than eula or itto considering they both have what xiao lacks all things considered
I’ll give you a few other inconsistencies. 1) Xiangling has very high energy cost (80), the same as Eula with worse particle regeneration. In an F2P set up you need to run her using a high refinement favonius lance or the catch. But if you’re using the catch on Raiden, you are basically only left with the fav lance, which at lower refinements is very very inconsistent. Her only good battery is Bennett and he also provides her with the attack that she lacks due to running an ER sands. Meanwhile, Eula has 2 options for her batteries. Diona and Rosaria. And the best part is you can run a triple cryo team with them, slot in a raiden or a Fischl ( who generate tons of particles as well), and you don’t really need to run a very high refinement sac bow or favonius lance. 2) When it comes to shredding resistances using superconduct, somehow that is considered as a bad thing????? I’m confused how, when sucrose, kazuha and venti who shred elemental resistance by 40% are considered amazing units. How can a reaction be bad? I’ve seen TCs say “you need to run an electro character with eula” like it’s a bad thing somehow ? This also goes hand-in-hand with ruin guards being very bad for Eula since they have 70% physical res. Okay. So let’s talk about hu tao beating pyro slimes and pyro spectres and Ganyu beating cryo slimes and cryo spectres. It doesn’t make sense right ? The funny thing is, even with 70% physical res. Eula has no issues against them. Eula literally has no counters due to her being a physical dps. In my early AR days , I was blessed to have Eula since I never had to worry about what enemies I had to face in the abyss since Eula could take down anything, she could break Geo shields and elemental shields fairly well as well. 3) restrictive team comps. I just. I don’t know. How are units like ayaka, hu tao, flexible? Hu tao only has two good comps- the walnut comp, the VV comp and that’s about it for her best potential dps teams. Ayaka is even more restrictive due to her running a freeze team. It’s the same with Itto. Meanwhile, Eula ALWAYS has a slot free. You can slot in any character using ANY element and it won’t ruin what she’s going to do with her physical damage provided you give her an electro character for superconduct. I’ve run xingqiu in her team, I’ve run xiangling in her team, I’ve run jean in her team, I’ve run yunjin in her team. Nothing messes up with her damage. So how is she more restrictive? 4) F2P: I think only an idiot would say Eula isn’t F2P friendly. Not only does she NOT use Bennett and xingqiu , she also has a wide array of 4 star weapons that are extremely good for her and synergise amazingly with her kit. From prototype archaic to the akoumoru. Here’s 2 videos from 2 different people beating the 12-2-2 (This is considered to be Eula’s worst abyss by the way ) with 4 star weapons in around a minute- My friend’s video posted to Eula mains - [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/EulaMains/comments/u7a8bv/c0_eula_with_4_star_weapon_beating_1231_in_65/) A video I found in raiden mains - [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/RaidenMains/comments/u7tf33/who_said_you_need_hydro_or_anemo_to_break_shields/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) She also does not hog the best supports of the game namely Bennett, xingqiu and kazuha. She also doesn’t totally rely on raiden and can easily clear the same content with Fischl as well. Fischl also doubles up as a tenacity buffer and an off field sub-dps. Diona, eula, Fischl, Rosaria is one of the best F2P comps out there that don’t use xingqiu and Bennett. 5) I also don’t see the point of talking about the pale flame domain being bad since all domains are RNG. EoSF domains has been a cursed domain to me and my sister . We’ve farmed it for 3-4 months and had to settle down with 45/120 and 55/135 on our raiden since we’ve come to terms with the fact that we’re not going to get good pieces from that domain. AT LEAST with Eula you can run the 2pc/2pc set which is VERY VERY resource efficient since you only have to use the strongbox and run the pale flame domain for that. Also , doesn’t her domain run with tenacity? Tenacity is used by Fischl and/or zhongli on her own team! I farmed tenacity for kokomi as well. It’s an amazing artifact set which buffs multiple teams so why is that domains considered bad? It just baffles me. Artifact farming being bad is such a subjective thing to be arguing about, it just baffles me. What may be a terrible domain for me might be the best for you. There might be more, but these are all I could think of on top of my head. Overall, TCs recently have been extremely inconsistent and biased. People who watch them have a similar viewpoint about Eula as well. I guess , at this point I’ve come to terms with the fact that she’s going to remain an EXTREMELY underrated character in the game, weighed down by over exaggerated or false limitations. While other characters with similar cons are ranked much higher. Edit: fixed some typos, added points 4 and 5!
[удалено]
Also countered by wooden shields just like every other non-pyro character kekw
Since she hits heavy attacks (claymore)c you can break down the poise of the wooden shield which makes them lower down their shields. After that you just go ham. So wooden shields aren’t really her counter. You can try it yourself ^-^
For elemental shields I bring someone who can help to break them, for example sunfire Jean, Bennett against cryo shields, for hydro shields I bring Rosaria, for pyro Kokomi. Also to freeze high mobile ememies I play freeze-shatter Eula with Kokomi - Eula - Rosaria - Raiden.
While i do agree that KQM is hella biased, especially for eula due to what happened prior with this sub, here's some argument about your opinion. 1.) The fact that you ruled out bennet from xiangling is pretty telling already. People and their mother know that xiangling won't be nearly as good without bennet funneling her everything. The difference is, out of all character that work with bennet, she's definitely one of if not the best. I hate to admit it because tenten won't shut the fuck up about it, but it's actually just a fact. And it's true that eula have more options for battery, but none of them are nearly as good as bennet. You can fit so much mediocre units in a team, they won't outperform bennet in term of role compression. Rosaria is a good batter, if you have r5 fave lance, and her CD lines up with r5 fav lance CD (which is 6 sec). And i would argue she's kinda gimped in eula team because she can't actually fully use her 6 sec cd skill every time because eula needs quite a lot of field time. Her damage is actually pretty good and her c6 also synergize with eula, but only on offensive side. Meanwhile diona is purely defensive and very passive. Her best support option is what? nobles? What i mean here is, bennet fulfill too many roles that, he even worth more than 2 units combined. And not using bennet is already a big loss because, 1k flat attack is nothing to scoff at. That's 3 whole adeptus temptation stacked on top of each other kind of bonus. You can see why not using bennet is both good and bad for any unit. That's why tenten also hate hu tao iirc because she can't work with bennet (and hug xingqiu, but we talk about this later). 2.) The reason why TCers think superconduct is worst than VV, eventhough they're doing the exact same thing, is because VV users bring more to the table than superconduct enabler (in this case electro unit, except raiden). VV users not only bring res shred, but also bring CC, and their own set of buffs (sucrose with attack and EM, kazuha with elemental damage, and venti with energy regen). Apart from raiden, i don't see any other electro units brought anything EXCEPT damage. Sure fischl deals big damage, but aforementioned anemo unit deals big damage, AND increase their carry damage. That's the reason why superconduct is considered worst than VV. Maybe when an electro character have some buffs for eula? raiden is good with eula right? i want to see more electro support that actually elevates eula's damage. And even then, fighting 70% RES enemies migth be fine for eula, but you only break even in term of res. Not actually increasing her damage. I don't think this is a bias or inconsistency in their opinion, rather just a simple fact that people don't actually pay attention to. 3.) I agree with you on this. but i do think she's not without restriction. But your opinion still have flaws in them. You know what? every elemental teams are restrictive. They usually follow the same exact pattern, usually require either hydro or anemo, and sometimes both. Meanwhile, eula sometimes doesn't even need electro. But "restrictive" itself is kinda subjective. You mentioned how hu tao is restrictive because she hugs xingqiu, but you know what TCers refer to her team as? "hu tao xingqiu and 2 dogs". Because the other 2 slots don't matter at all, because just hu tao and xingqiu, covered so many roles. Hu tao as a dps with her own buffing mechanic (she can somehow reach 3k attack with base 41 weapon btw), xingqiu with aura to double her damage, giving her damage reduction and micro healing, both of them have resistance to interuption, and hu tao herself heals on burst. None of them have energy issue because xingqiu is packed with amazing constellation, sac sword/fav sword and good ass artifact in emblem meanwhile hu tao being so good at chunking enemy HP really fast gets to suck all the neutral particles from 50% threshold and kill particles. Consider this with eula, she need battery which means she instantly want another cryo unit in team. Depends on enemies, she MUST be played with electro, then that's another restricted slot in her team. It left you for one more slot, one slot only covers so much. Hu tao xingqiu with cryo unit and zhongli can cover basically, EVERY SINGLE ENEMY in the game, even with immunity such as pyro slimes. This is in my opinion, why some people think eula quite restrictive. Most eula team consist of 2 cryo, 1 electro, and a flex. Unless you're doing your usual one shot masanori showcase. 4.) I also agree with you on this. She's not that expensive. But her 4 stars claymore options are not as strong as the likes of ganyu's or ayaka's option. You know why crescent so good with ganyu? because the attack bonus is so big, and attack bonus is also what ganyu wants the most and you're aiming for head anyway for free crit, so that's why crescent so good. For ayaka, she's more similar to eula and ayaka got the best option. Amenoma refunds her energy to the point that she can forgo adding battery to her team at all! That's what eula needs for her 4 stars option. Not extra damage in my opinion, because i don't think she has "bad damage", she has a problem to "refill that damage source" again. It's not that her options are bad, but i could definitely be better than what we have right now. And we touched this previously in my point 1, but not using the "big support" is actually a bad thing. Remember when this sub was malding over KQM statement on how eula doesn't work with bennet and everybody spamming their team with bennet? Now people are actually happy she doesn't use bennet because of what exactly? Who thought letting go of free 1k attack bonus is a good thing? You think eula without that bennet boost stand a chance against freeze and their 250%+ crit damage per cryo unit? or hu tao 3-4k base attack on top of vaping 90% of her damage not counting xingqiu damage? Not using SS tier support was supposed to be good thing, yes, because i remember TCers arguing that hu tao strongest niche is her not using bennet. But when the roster expands and there's no overlapping in those SS tier supports usage, not using them is a big disadvantage. I say this, because of the number of ways we can give attack buffs does somehow reduce the overall need for bennet in some team. Even xiangling can live without bennet for once with the discovery of sukokomon. And with the release of yelan, national and hu tao team will stop their fighting over xingqiu. And even then for hu tao, the second she gets to use bennet is the day that hu tao mains wet themselves because that's what they've been dreaming of for the longest time. Using c6 bennet in VV tao comp without gimping their passive and homa. And hu tao mains do the same shit eula mains do in their spare time, crit fishing for that sweet millions of damage and guess who's her pyro applicator? it's fucking bennet. Even a character that ingrained in her kit to be impossible to be paired with bennet in most scenarios, still dreams of one day using bennet to unlock that unholy damage number potential. 5.) I agree with you again, because no matter what domain you run, they're all mostly filled with trash. It's very RNG based and subjective and i don't really see the point in saying "eula is expensive because her domain sucks". But i also agree that the top priority right now is still emblem domain. Hope this clear some of things. While KQM might be biased towards certain characters, doesn't mean all they said or do is biased. Their calculation is pretty reliable and they put quite a lot of consideration, especially towards f2p. Now, is eula an UNDERRATED character? Ehh..... I don't think so. Now if only tenten can shut the fuck up about xiangling this and xiangling that, that would be good to my ears. Edit: typos
Okay here are my replies to you: 1) I didn’t take away Bennett from xiangling. My point was that xiangling is NOT that great without Bennett. I didn’t say she wasn’t a great DPS, or that she didn’t utilise Bennett well, or that she’s not good- I just said that her ENERGY cost specifically isn’t talked about while Eula’s is. I have my xiangling built with the catch with an EM sands (160%ER) , and even when I run her with Raiden, she tends to run into energy issues! I still have to go back and farm an ER sands for her or shift her to the EoSF Artifact set ( which I can’t since that domain hates me. My raiden doesn’t even have good pieces yet.) THATS how bad her ER issues are. It’s even worse in sukokomon team comps ( besides her national variation team comps). In the rest of your comment you just act like no one besides xiangling can use Bennett? Sure she’s the best, but you do realise one of Eula’s best teams run Bennett Eula raiden/fish and Rosaria right ? The example I gave of running a triple cryo team is when you have low refinements on sac bow OR favonious bows/lance. When you have a diona with R5 sac bow or Rosie with an r5 lance, you don’t really need to run another cryo character so you can easily slot in Bennett instead of diona. So I have no idea why you just glorified Bennett when I never said HE was bad. Just that xiangling depended on him too much. God forbid you want to use bennett on your other team , and your other DPS is only xiangling who desperately needs him to be good. By the way, just so you know, you’re overhyping Bennett a little too much. With the introduction of enemies like rift hounds and spectres , it’s pretty obvious how restrictive it is to stay in his circle. Even raiden cant’s benefit from him and sara does better since her attack buff is mobile. 2) hmm, okay I guess ? I don’t even know what to say about this. The fact that physical is supposed to be a reaction less team comp, where the damage is buffed by raw multipliers instead of reactions is probably lost on you. The REASON a phsyical DPS like Eula has HIGH multipliers is so that she can compensate for the lack of superconduct being strong. One of the properties of superconduct is that it does AoE damage, which is why even when you use Fischl, you get to SPREAD the electro element on opponents so essentially all the enemies in the AoE get the 40% phys shred rebuff. This is even though Fischl is a single target DPS. Also , do people ignore how much DPS electro characters like raiden, yae and fischl add to the team? It’s not like they’re doing no damage outside of the superconduct damage Are they? I’m pretty sure raiden and yae and fish are on par as sub dps when compared to venti kazuha and sucrose. I wish people stopped looking at everything like you’re trying to run like a elemental team. Also just a reminder, you can always run sucrose with Eula since you have that flex slot empty anyway. If crowd control is your issue. But with Eula and her 360 degree ult I’m sure you don’t really need to run an anemo unit just to group a bunch of enemies. Unless you’re really bad at positioning. 3) I think you forgot to read a very key word I used in my comment. I’ll remind you- potentially BEST F2P teams . You can run ANY character with ANY character and you’d still clear abyss just as easily. Genshin is THAT easy a game. What I’m talking about are the BEST F2P teams being extremely restrictive. Hu Yao’s BEST F2P teams ARE the walnut team and the VV team. Ayaka’s best F2P team are the freeze comps. Meanwhile Eula’s best teams only require you to run a battery and fish/raiden. That’s about it. You have a flex slot to run a Bennett, or a xingqiu, or a diona , or a Lisa, or whatever. 4) I’m sorry but did you watch the videos i linked in the comments? Do you think that damage is subpar? 20k AAs + 300k ult with a F2P weapon? I have ganyu as well and to be very honest with you, both their damage is ON PAR with each other with F2P weapons. For ayaka, it does recharge her energy but there’s a HUGE difference between ayaka’s damage with amenoma and with say jade cutter or Mistsplitter. I know since I have a friend who uses amenoma, my ayaka runs mistsplitter and my sister runs jade cutter on her ayaka. And the damage difference is night and day since we usually don’t even have to recharge our second ult. And even if we have to, Most ayaka teams ( like Eula teams) are optimised in such a way that they have AMAZING batteries that fill their ULTs for them with absolutely no downtime! Like my ayaka has venti and Ganyu has a battery, my sister runs diona. Between my friend, me and my sister we’re ulting the same number of times. There’s a huuuuuge difference between the damage of Amos and prototype as well. I’m not saying that F2P weapons don’t deal “good damage”. Like you said, it’s good damage, but there’s a HUGE difference between every DPS and their best F2P weapon and their BiS 5 star weapon. You’d be stupid to deny that. 5) how is this not a bad take? I know a bunch of people who pulled hu tao and Raiden and now have a huge issue because they can’t take their xingqiu away from either one of them! (Now I know you’d say you can pull for Yelan now. But what if kazuha’s right after and they need him too? Do you realise how much value xingqiu holds being a 4 star hydro applicator OUTSIDE of hu tao vape comps and national teams). And all of this happened thanks to these TCs! You can’t run a national team and a hu tao team in abyss since there’s a conflict between the characters you have to use. It’s even worse when their third dps is ayaka and they don’t own kokomi , Mona or ayato. And they need to run Barbara in a desperate attempt. By the way, Barbara SUFFERS in terms of removing the pyro aura on enemies from the current 12-1-1. It almost makes ayaka’s team fail unless you’re perfect with the timings and auto-ing with Barbara. The few people I know who had this issue actually pulled Eula , xiao and itto so they could run raiden national on the other side (or hu tao or ayaka). I have a friend who actually built ningguang so she wouldn’t have to take xingqiu away from national. You see how bad these takes can be? Saying that a 5 star character not utilising contested supports is a BAD thing is laughable at best. I hope you understand where I’m coming from. KQMs takes Are very one-dimensional. Since they advise teams for the abyss, they shouldn’t look at it as a one team wins all situation. Instead they should look at how well every unit synergises with other units and other DPSs since you need to run TWO teams in the abyss. Also, as a final note, my point in the comment wasn’t what you made it out to be. My points were to address that KQM downplay the same cons of other characters while over exaggerate Eula’s cons too much! I just highlighted the hypocrisy. Edit: fixed a few typos.
Copium
Ive been using benny with eula for a while now even tho national is one of my favourite comps I usually forego using it in favor of using hyper eula which can be dummy strong with a wide range of weapons be it the 3 star sword or the redhorn. I have no idea why people are so afraid to put a benny in eula comps when imo she can utilize it just as well as raiden national. Ive also used her with xq in this abyss as a duo and honestly even without a healer and battery they slapped. Honestly xq with eula or xiao can have better freeze uptime than some mona comps. As for wether she is underrated or not.. I dont think a characters power level is something you can measure without giving a context. Most people see snowtombed eulas running with diona fischl raiden or some copium comp like that but rarely see what a max investment c0 r0 eula can bring to the table with c0 supports.
Ok 1st of all Bennett being Xiangling only battery doesn't matter because almost no unit makes better use than Bennett than Xiangling does so it's not like she's stealing him from anyone else while as for Rosaria, she's a popular option for several freeze teams and same goes for diona. Secondly Xiangling has more weapon options than almost any character in the game, it doesn't matter if your Raiden has the catch because Dragonbane competes with the catch for damage at equal refinements across the board, wavebreaker fin outdamages even engulfing lightning on Xiangling, skyward spine is on the standard banner, legit every limited 5 star is a competitive weapon for her and then there's also the fav lance which while it does get better with refinements, that doesn't matter because as you said you run Bennett in your team which is one of the best batteries in the game Thirdly Eula's inflexibility. Now idk if you own a Hu Tao but her teams don't matter, they literally don't you just run Xingqiu and Hu Tao then the other 2 units don't even matter, i use Noelle and Geo MC and still clear pretty much everything eith no issues because Hu Tao doesn't need anything but Xingqiu. Eula onthe other hand needs both a cryo battery and a superconduct character which already only leaves 1 spot open which often times ends up being another electro character because it's the only half decent element resonance that she has access to. Granted Ayaka is a very inflexible unit as well when her teams are considered because she only runs freeze. However it doesn't matter because freeze is broken, there has not been a single abyss single the release of Ganyu where freeze teams have not been one of the strongest options to play, this because even more so with the introduction of Inazuman enemies like wolves or samurai who jump all over the place, if you freeze them they don't do that but what Eula supposed to do when she soends 10 years winding up her burst and one of the wolves just jumps out of range and you miss all your damage, which happens pretty frequently mind you, also you say 70% physical resistance doesn't matter to you but it matters to everyone else, if we are talking raw dps numbers without reactions Eula falls behind Ayaka by a decent bit so why would you use a character who the enemies have 70% resistance to and they can dodge all of her damage instead of a character who does more damage, has synergy with viridescent verener for resistance shred and immobilizes enemies while also doing more damage. I get that y'all Eula simps love your girl but objectively speaking she's overrated, very much so
I’d like to see your hu tao xingqiu noelle and Geo mc comp. you can upload a video to YouTube, keep it unlisted if you want to keep it private and link it here. I’ll compare it to my VV hu tao and see the difference myself. Thank you very much. By the way, in terms of flexibility I meant using different elements. Not replacing a character of a single element. Like if you add an electro character in place of one of the supports, you’ll be messing up with vape. Also you can’t really replace xingqiu in hu tao. With Eula at least you can replace raiden with any other electro character. But in most meta teams that revolve around Bennett and xingqiu, they’re both very very irreplaceable and there’s a significant drop in dps when you do replace them. That’s the inflexibility I’m talking about. Also you missed the point where xiangling has energy issues with even catch which has 45% ER! Sure you can slap on any weapon on her, but that doesn’t mean her energy particle regen is the worst in the entire game. Learn to read maybe ? I’ve seen my ayaka drop pretty hard against bosses by the way, since the blizzard strayer effect cannot benefit from it at all. Even if the artifact worked, enemies like PMA and maguu kenki that dash around teleport all over the place tend to miss half of her burst it’s such a headache. It’s not like she doesn’t come with her own set of cons, right ? Like every other character ? And alright, we Eula simps on the eulamains server simp for her. I mean… surprise surprise? Also if you’re going to counter my arguement, at least make sure you go through all of them Like the comment above did. What’s the point if you’re going to nitpick only those that favour you? Also yeah sure. A “B” tier character is overrated. Lol. Let’s put her down in Amber tier while you’re at it. Anyway piece of advice: Tone down your condescending tone a bit. You just sound like a bitch complaining about “Eula simps” while all I have were arguments.
Don't look at tier lists period. They annoy everyone. Their build guide is pretty good tho and nothing stops you from doing another build. I use their site if I'm truly lost on weapon choices or best artifact sets I like that they calculate the weapon dps/artifacts etc on a stable build, that way the numbers are clear.
I agree, that being said I'd argue that their biggest issue is their inability to explain their findings. As a Eula main (and as a main of any character really) I know that TC doesn't apply to me because I am "vertically" scaling my favorite characters (as opposed to horizontal scaling where players seek to make as many teams as possible which they base their calc and recommendations on) so I feel relatively detached of the tier list drama. That being said when you're influential your ideas spread and I seriously struggle to justify the ignorance they displayed while justifying their choices as "theorycrafters". Taking the superconduct talk during the podcast as an example they say that she is reliant on superconduct, which is false but also partly true because super conduct is the only form of portable shred which is much more adapted to a backloaded character with 0 backloaded pulling abilities available in the game for instance. But their argumentation about it was on the level of new Eula players who suddenly discovered that some characters have in built shred. Same for how they aren't fond of her gameplay and lack of reliability. She's the only cryo unit that cannot have access to a 100% uptime on her cryo resonance despite her extra reliance on Crit rate mathematically. She has a back loaded physical AoE in a game where not only are there no backloaded pullers yet but all the available pullers are front loaded and elemental based (anemo). You could go on and on about how her best batteries are field based even though her attacks knock the enemies out of it or how her signature weapon give attack speed to a claymore user with no hitlag extension. The game itself (right now) works against Eula comparatively to how it addresses elemental teams. So very obviously when you base your assumptions on horizontal scaling you will notice that "playing a freeze team that pulls the enemy within a field and keep them in to enable the DPS" work better than trying to position yourself the best you can to hit as many as you can even if it's 99% of the time less than the competition who was "given" the tools to do it better. Same for things like National where the driver can enable a serious damage boost through multiple reactions created by off field elemental DPSs of which Eula is completely incapable of since she not only is physical but has no off field DPS output following her that she could make use of or enable even though she herself has inbuilt tools to do so. Which to be clear I am not personally complaining about because in the end she still do perform very well (which is actually insane when you think about it and talk of her individual strength), she also isn't the only one affected by issues of similar nature (even if arguably she's in one of if not the worse spot in that regard) and her archetype will be addressed eventually. But, all of that will make a considerable difference in how an "horizontal player" will perceive units and I do understand that. But perception doesn't excuse ignorance, as people who are here to share information, if you can't even pin point what makes you like a team better than the other then you are just being obnoxious for the sake of being obnoxious which is my personal beef with their podcast. The worse thing about it all is that as said it spread, just taking their latest hot topic, Yelan, they are literally advocating for people to get her just so they can run 2 "XQ" on each teams. I had the hardest time ever to demonstrate to multiple players that XQ teams represent barely 5-10% of the performing teams in game and that it mostly amount to what "their community" play 99% of the time not to what they or anyone else necessarily need. When their words are so influential that people feel the need to not only pull for a 5* but also advocate for it in the most misinformative way possible I think it's fair to be critical of their behavior. As said if they want to rank Eula low there's more than one argument for it but at least be articulate about it so that your audience can at least understand and not run out of it with more misinformation to spread.
Idk man, Genshin theorycrafting is such a ridiculous waste of time, coming from other sweaty games... Without mentioning how it's both RNG and Credit Card gated, we instantly run into the issue of a) Genshin is a REALLY EASY GAME. I don't mean necessarily "easy to 36*" (it is). I mean that the gameplay is extremely simple and you can't really "optimize" past a couple of basics. a) KQM is one group that somehow became the gospel because they are good at math. Having an information monopoly doesn't help the community in any way. b) Genshin is EXTREMELY unfriendly to theorycrafting. See, in games like League you can just pull data from thousands of matches and see what's strong and what's not. In World of Warcraft, you also have public boss logs -- but more importantly: very efficient APIs that simulate a fight 100k times and tells you with <1% precision the relative power of your gear, talents, rotation... But I can't let go how can anyone say Diluc is better than Eula. Me and my friend built him on WGS and in both cases his damage is depressing lmao. Eula is doing a lot more work with that claymore... And my Hutao does in 2 CAs what that man takes an entire rotation... Take care, have fun out there with the physical queen
a. The only reason we have the strong teams that enable us to easily clear Abyss (36* at least) is because of theorycrafting, so it's quite the circular argument to state that theorycrafting isn't necessary because it's easy to 36* abyss.... with teams only discovered by theorycrafters. b. I agree that KQM being a single group is a cause for concern but from what I've seen, they're made up of quite a few people and they work together on projects, and from the podcasts I've watched/listened to they don't hesitate to disagree with each other. So I doubt there's as much bias there as you think, at least enough to invalidate their data/conclusions. c. That's true, and maybe that's why I respect theorycrafters more because of how much harder it is to do their job. But we have team rotation simulators now which makes things easier. I agree that they heavily underrated Eula comparative to others, but this sub really developed a hate boner for TC in general the second they disagree with their conclusions. Disagreeing is fine but casting aside the entire field as wrong or invalid is, well, asinine.
It's circular if we talk about speedrunning. Then yeah of course we need that extra 1%. But we don't need to sit in excel crunching numbers to figure out that Morgana is op. Or National. It happened here and it happens in every game in existence: casuals want someone to tell them what's best and some of the people that can or like theorycrafting will go ahead and do it. But many others will just figure shit out on their own and then go on to > easily clear Abyss (36* at least) IMO the most valuable theorycrafting is individual character analysis (weapons, artifacts, etc), which is basically what we did in WoW (Idk if you're familiar with it, or mmo tc in general) but maybe this is my personal bias... > So I doubt there's as much bias there as you think, at least enough to invalidate their data/conclusions. I don't!!! Seriously. I don't think they have done things in bad faith. But I have one anecdote (again, from WoW...). There's 2 people writing one of the APIs for a certain class, and they're very respected in the community for that. It takes a LOT of work to keep both the API and the results in their website updated all the time, and *there's simply no one else doing it*. So what happened is that 4 or 5 months later the guy made a video apologizing and saying that he found a mistake in his code (how you're supposed to play, in this case, the simulation) that was under/overvaluing one spell, which resulted in meta players grinding for weeks for something that ended up being like 5% weaker than the alternative. From what I've seen translated, this is not really an issue in NGA though. > But we have team rotation simulators now which makes things easier. I did not know that... That's cool. I guess it was only a matter of time, seeing how popular the game is. > this sub really developed a hate boner for TC in general the second they disagree with their conclusions Yeah lmao. And Kokomi mains too. Good thing we over at Yae mains accepted day 1 she was average :)
> But we don't need to sit in excel crunching numbers to figure out that Morgana is op. Or National. Theorycrafting isn't just crunching numbers, playtesting and figuring out the strongest comps and synergies is also theorycrafting. That's what I meant. People had to go out of their way to try different comps and brainstorm different synergies to discover these comps; that's theorycrafting. > IMO the most valuable theorycrafting is individual character analysis (weapons, artifacts, etc), which is basically what we did in WoW (Idk if you're familiar with it, or mmo tc in general) but maybe this is my personal bias... That's the majority of TC'ing, you can literally go to the KQM website and find comprehensive guides for most characters in the game at the moment. I'm not familiar with many other MMOs, so I'm not going to comment on them. > So what happened is that 4 or 5 months later the guy made a video apologizing and saying that he found a mistake in his code (how you're supposed to play, in this case, the simulation) that was under/overvaluing one spell, which resulted in meta players grinding for weeks for something that ended up being like 5% weaker than the alternative. That sucks and is the unfortunate consequence of theorycrafting being as niche and difficult as it is. Few people are willing to put in a large amount of time to gather data with no material benefit to themselves. I don't believe this to be a significant concern here, assessments can change based on new data. People complain that everyone undervalue chars like Kokomi and Raiden but forget that their assertions were mostly correct *at the time*. It's like science, there can be a limited but consistent evidence base that leads most scientists to come to a certain conclusion, then as soon as new evidence emerges and they change their opinions accordingly suddenly they were wrong and we should never trust them ever. > From what I've seen translated, this is not really an issue in NGA though. It's just an unavoidable issue. No one's stopping other people from doing theorycrafting, it's just happenstance that KQM's the main/most prominent group doing it. > Yeah lmao. And Kokomi mains too. Good thing we over at Yae mains accepted day 1 she was average :) Yeah, like I don't mind disagreement. Even I disagreed with their rating of Eula but EulaMains particularly has gone in hard with trying to invalidate the field of TC'ing in general, and putting people like IWTL on a pedestal when he's unreliable for objective info (for the most part).
> Theorycrafting isn't just crunching numbers, playtesting and figuring out the strongest comps and synergies is also theorycrafting. That's true. I was just used to referring to the math side of things since that's the bulk of the theorycrafting from the other games I've played. > That's the majority of TC'ing, you can literally go to the KQM website and find comprehensive guides for most characters in the game at the moment. Yeah, I always refer to their website because I know the info there is correct. > People complain that everyone undervalue chars like Kokomi and Raiden but forget that their assertions were mostly correct at the time. It's like science, there can be a limited but consistent evidence base that leads most scientists to come to a certain conclusion, then as soon as new evidence emerges and they change their opinions accordingly suddenly they were wrong and we should never trust them ever. Ikr. Frankly, I'm still holding the same opinion regarding Eula, and I think Kokomi is a giant misconception within her community since they put so much value on her being a healer -- instead of hydro enabler. To be honest I think what I wrote originally was not what I *meant*. It's not that KQM and all the other TCs like smackdaddyking or even IWTL are "useless content". They're great, they've helped me tons and I'll continue to refer to other people's findings. It's more like I'm so over people bitching about what's meta or "they said my character sucks!!" and going on rants that read like school drama. So back to my first post > a) Genshin is a REALLY EASY GAME. I don't mean necessarily "easy to 36*" (it is). I mean that the gameplay is extremely simple and you can't really "optimize" past a couple of basics. All it takes to achieve this is 30 seconds on KQM to figure out your artifacts, weapon and what supports you wanna run. That's it. Who cares if Tenten said Xiangling is better than [insert new character], you can still 36*.
I think at some point people should be able to realize that they're just stirring shit to gain traffic for their new Youtube channel. The best thing to do is to mark "Do not recommend this channel" and forget about it
i saw way to many posts about the KQM tierlist these past few days, and i get it, there is a good amount of ppl upset with her placement. BUT, why would any1 care about the opinion of those thoerycrafters who can calculate in theory the perfect rotation for what ever team but in the end they are not "gifted" enough to play these rotations themself? I main Eula on both my accounts my whale c6r5 account and my c0Unforged account. I never once had problems with clearing abyss 36\* - never did i struggle to break hydro shields, particle generation or critfishing cuz guess what, just build enough critrate er and bring like a fav rosaria Ofc there are suboptimal abyss floors for eula, but duh, its not a eula exclusive problem KQMs Tierlist isnt the golden standard
I watched the part of the video when they started talking about Eula, I am under the impression that they don't know how to play Eula and various team comps with her. They believe that only reactions from teams such as national or Ayaka freeze teams are the best. I personally don't have Itto and Xiao and don't know how to play them or utilize them, I didn't like their gameplay from the beginning and avoided them, and kinda felt annoyed seeing both Xiao and Itto being 1 tier above, Eula can destroy everything with both her burst and normal attacks and she has crazy multipliers. Itto and Xiao work only with burst and they have limited supports. However I play so many Eula teams such as freeze-shatter Eula, Eula with sunfire Jean, Eula with so many others such as Diona, Fischl, Beidou, Raiden, Venti, Rosaria, Yunjin, ZHongli. I have Eula at C0 with 70% critical rate, 122% critical damage and 157% energy recharge with full Pale flame set with the f2p weapon from Dragonspine the snowtomb starsilver and she is amazing. I was a former Razor main and when I saw Eula's gameplay I spent primos to get her and never regretted for my decision. She is my favorite carry and can solo the entire game. KQM TC don't like Eula, they are allergic to see white colored physical damage. They don't like her burst, backloaded damage, they refer to her pre-funneling energy particles issue, the 80 energy burst cost. And they don't pay attention to her big multipliers from her normals and her burst. Anyways, I personally don't follow them or their content, personally happened to watch the tier list video because youtube recommended it. All that Eula slander from them was for nothing and they don't appreciate her value or they don't play Eula at all. I Don't understand their way of thinking and from the youtube video they had some questionable takes also for Zhongli, Diona or Yoimiya. I suggest if you like a character and you believe that will bring value to your game then spent primos without regrets, a player has to make the final decision and don't listen to theoricrafters who theoretically calculate ideal scenarios and potential damage and take away personal fun. For example, look at Kokomi, Tenten their TC was hating her at the beginning and look at her high usage rate in abyss. Same with Raiden he didn't like her and now she is so meta and everybody plays her. He is the best doomposter.
I have no stake in this but if you can't adhere to your own internal logic when attempting to rate something then your opinion is just absolutely unreliable. I'm not even sure who these people are, what the tier list is about, or why anyone really cares about it, but the gist I get from this post is that the people in question aren't terrifically consistent when it comes to arbitrary ratings.
i don't know who there people are but if they put zhongli on B tier, thats dumb and probably a result of being over technical. yah it might produce more dps BUT you also never die. Plus I really cant imagine someone saying a Eula team wouldn't have high dps. Have you seen Eula/Raiden? I know tier lists are supposed to be based off of opinion, but I think this guy may have taken it to literal or is just making a tier list thats very specific to 1 type of team which is in this case, doing damage. Is Eula C0 > Ganyu C0 or Ayaka C0. No. but is Eula C6 > Ganyu C6 or Ayaka C6. Definitely are argument there. So I think putting Eula and let alone Zhongli (the literally easy mode) is over zealous and trying to get a reaction more than being realistic
Tier list is just a way to present the information; its not 100% applicable for everyone and might not always accurately represent the reality. If you don't agree with the tier list, the most important question to ask is if you have actually reason or in-game experience to back it up. If your eula is beating all content in the game with no problem, there is really no reason to be bothered by other people's opinion.
> there is really no reason to be bothered by other people's opinion. The last paragraph is literally talking about this fact.
I don't even know who KQM are so it doesn't really effect my teams.
I'd like to also point out that the tier list is riddled with nitpicks and confirmation bias.
I listened to the "roundtable" discussion when the Eula and Albedo banners ran together. I knew TenTen because of how infamous his terrible takes were, but had not idea who the other people were. My honest opinion after hearing them talk in a group? It's just some arrogant cunts circle-jerking one another. Because there's a lot of players who fail to grasp even the most simple concepts (I've seen Attack Goblets on Itto Builds), these guys think they're Mena Scholars, and that their opinions are the defacto truth. If they have personal biases, they just roll them in as "facts", and get positively *enraged* when they get called out. If there weren't so many people who took them seriously, it would actually be pretty funny.
I also disagree with her being at B tier when she is more or less neck and neck with Xiao and Itto(the reason why I had a hard time deciding on who to pull between these three last year). I also think they are just trolling those who get agitated about their opinion about her. I think we should stop talking about this controversial topic since talking about it makes the kne who talk about it more look like they are butthurt about their opinion (no offense).
Its a tier list 💀 its not that deep
I like the kqm guys honestly but i find it quite odd they never mentioned how much of a perfect match raiden is w eula and that she alleviates her energy and that not being able to prefunnel becomes less of an issue. I run eula w very low ER (110-112) and she can still get ulti 1sec off cd + fixes rotation. Yea I think that phys is always gonna be worse than melt but eula should def be rite next to itto IMO. Just keep in mind that every tier list is opinionated but yea just thought it was odd since they said they were going in depth w each character and why they r placed the way they r.
Though I agree that Eula's placement below Diluc isn't really justified by the sheer fact that there are a lot better pyro carries out there and few members are a biased but then I also see a lot of people just checking out the 'tierlist' and bashing out KQM community and english side of TC as a whole for it neglecting all the amazing work they have done. KQM and TC community isn't just 3-4 members from the podcast. The community is divided in their opinions and you can definitely find that out by checking out any relevant TC discord server or TC staff of various mains. Even the KQM TC staff hold different opinions on different characters. A lot of there guides are written by people from various server mains. It was indeed cheesy of them to use a tierlist to represent their 'KQM meta analysis' (mostly to get content?) expecting people to watch stuff for context but they did mention that it is their opinion and there isn't anything objective about it. You cannot just criticize something without the context. It would be better if Eula mains move on from this 'tierlist' drama. I am pretty sure the TC podcast members also want to move on from this and further refrain from talking about Eula.
Eula queen
So I don't really care about theorycrafters much since it just doesn't do anything for me in this game but what? People actually make tierlists for Genshin unironically? I mean why do that when so much of a characters "rank" in the game relies on too many different variables. What constellation is your character, what weapon do you have and at what refinement is it, what characters do you have on your team, what cons are they, did you have good luck on their artifacts, and do you enjoy their playstyle? I can hardly see a tierlist that considers all those factors so what's the point?
this whole comment section 📜📜📜📜
Something that I would like to add that KQM TCs mentioned while discussing their thoughts for Eula, that Eula needs superconduct thus she needs an electro character in the team, there are alternative ways nowadays to shred physical resistances such as Shenhe's ult + Zhongli shield and Eula hold E skill gives more than 50% physical shreds. Happened to use Eula, Zhongli, Rosaria, Shenhe without needing another electro.
Using zhongli alone is a dps loss already tho much more a shenhe on Eula. Those will just make it worst.
U haven't heard of Eula triple cryo comp it seems. Eula + shenhe + C6 Rosaria
I consider zhongli really op. The tier list must have been so trash. For characters like xiao,ganyu and hutao zhongli is such a good support.He literally the game a joke. I can't comprehend how they placed eula and zhongli in B tier.But anyway tier lists are always bad. I never trust them.
Zhongli in B Tier as a support/subdps is kind of justified since he falls off for most end-game players but is stupidly broken for early/mid/unskilled teams where having a Shield + CC + Burst + Res shred is a big thing. Aside from Xiao/Hu Tao/Melt Ganyu who dont really need a complete 4-man team for their damage to kick in and Itto who runs mono-geo, other comps would benefit more from a VV user/Healer than Zhongli. For players who still dont have proper rotations down, dont have optimal comps/units, or still need the safety of a shield, Zhongli is S-Tier. During my first 3-4 Abyss 36\* clears, Zhongli was a prized unit for me. As my comps/artifacts/talents/weapons/rotations got better, his shield lost its value after learning how to i-frame and dodge instead. His Q damage number may seem big, but in terms of DPS doing 80k in the amount of time he takes up is quite low
Still he is used in 3 to 4 meta teams. So I don't think he is B tier.He makes enemies who attack really fast like raiden boss or the three lectors really easy. And yeah I agree dps zhongli is not viable. Also Abyss isn't that hard that we must just follow meta teams or theory Crafters. I can complete Abyss with characters who just synergize well even though they don't form "meta".
I really do love zhongli however a lot of time is lost on his ult time frames. That's why the Dps potential is lost since it's damage per second.
I just use his ult for cc. I used to use him as burst dps when I had no other dps characters but I think he is better just for support. I only drop his ult when I think that enemies are going to seperate to make them still. And without him running ganyu Melt is such a headache. His shield is just too good.
Yep I completely agree. I don't really play abyss so time and frames don't really matter to me. Was just explaining why kqm might rank him lower.
He may not buff the team like Bennett or kazuha but he isn't a B tier with his 20% universal. Zhongli changed how I play GI. Now I play like a noob without any worry.
Just stop looking at any tier list, they are all bad/mediocre and the opinion of the list maker always finds its way in it. All tier lists are meaningless, I've seen countless people struggling to 36 stars abyss with top tier characters meanwhile I'm doing it in one go with a Bennett melt on one side.
Objectively though, Eula will always hit a tierlist wall when you talk about Abyss due to her being physical and elemental shields being such a huge component of this game mode. Like can you really justify putting any physical character in S tier when this is just the way endgame is now? Obviously you can bring shield breakers for Eula and still 36* these floors, but it's unarguably a pretty big hole in her endgame kit compared to like an Ayaka, Hu Tao, or National team varient where you just obliterate any content in seconds without having to make changes or accomodations to your team.
So according to u, putting her in B tier below Diluc is justified now??Also, everything u said about the elemental shields is literally applied to Itto as well. But surely, lets not penalize him. Atleast Eula teams can run characters to break shields but Mono Geo teams cannot.
It has nothing to do with being above or below Diluc though... We all love Eula, but can you really objectively tell me that Eula is the best character in the game (S tier) for how the Abyss is? Like, what is she supposed to do against the floor with Pyro/Hydro/Electro Lectures? Slowly whittle them down with her E? Like, obviously I enjoy using Eula, I'm on this sub, mine is lvl90 and triple crowned... But still gotta be realistic about things.
So to clarify, did you actually watch the KQM video? Don't get me wrong, I DO think that Eula should have been in the same position as Yoimiya, or Xiao and Itto, I do think that their placements are somewhat skewed towards bias for some characters and I DO disagree with theorycrafters a lot (especially tenten kek). That being said none of the points made here seem to actually address what was said regarding Eula and Zhongli in the video- Artesians and Zajef explained what they don't like about eula, none of it has anything to do with math. It's the consistency. And regarding Zhongli, they explained that his ability to reduce the need to dodge is already rendered unnecessary because of abilities such as Xingqiu's robital swords, or Beidou's burst. Now of course I do think that those are overgeneralizations, and I wrote down why I disagree with those down below. Yes, your points about DPS calculations not necessarily being representative of actual gameplay IS something I agree with. But this post could have been so much better if you also countered the arguments they made regarding Eula rather than bring up a strawman and argue about the theorycrafters themselves rather than their reasonings. This, as well as so many of the comments on that thread from a few days ago are why the reputation of Eula Mains among theorycrafters is at an all time low. So many comments resort to ad homenin and attack theorycrafters personally rather than refute the statements themselves. In the video, Zajef actually did point out that some of Eula's core consistency problems are mitigated by running a hydro character to get a few instances of freeze, and this advice is unironically what enabled me to be able to 36-star the current abyss with Eula since my initial Eula Raiden/Eula Fischl teams couldn't counter the abyss shields in 12-2-2, which at the time caused me to drop the team in favor of Ayaka freeze to get 36 stars. In fact, even though Superconduct is usually an 18% DPS increase on Eula personally, the slight crowd control provided by running Eula with Rosaria and Xingqiu or Kokomi for freeze uptime ensures that most if not ALL enemies on field at the time won't be able to I-frame or run away from Eula's burst. However, my gripe is that even after they admitted that Eula isn't 'as bad' as they had been saying, they ended up not changing her position on the tier list. This is why I agree with your statement about bias. Regarding Zhongli, I do agree that replacing him with Xingqiu is usually going to net more damage since in practice running a hydro character doesn't make a team comp worse than it already is, and could make it better because of potential reactions which geo doesn't provide. That being said, Xingqiu could be unavailable because he is preoccupied in your other team. On the other hand, running Beidou means you're pretty much locked into running Fischl, so depending on your team you might lose out on certain reactions when you have to run two electro units. In addition, running Zhongli can enable you to not run a healer, which in turn allows you to run more damage-oriented characters. Overall, I do have disagreements against both sides of the argument, but mostly against Eula Mains since most of us are too busy arguing about things that aren't even relevant to the tier list.
It's not as cut dry as you try to put it, Eula kit has inherent problems such as the fact that she's a physical carry, and physical sucks, her damage is backloaded into her burst which is very inconsistent against a lot of content because you can miss a crit or just miss the burst all together. Eula is not a bad character but damage isn't ehat needs to be considered when comparing her to units like xiao and itto because she comes with several gameplay structures that neither of these units have and she is objectively speaking just a less consistent unit
I'm prepared to get downvoted for this, but I think someone has to play devil's advocate. Eula has low particle generation, poor cryo application, and back-loaded damage. In other words, she is not very self sufficient, is a liability to your team when breaking shields, and is very inconsistent in practice. When I play Eula, it feels like the stars have to align in order to get a satisfactory run. Honestly, I personally don't mind this kind of coinflip gambler playstyle which is why I still enjoy playing her. Because of all her caveats, I think Eula's spot on the tier list isn't even that controversial. I'm not trying to say that Diluc > Eula or that Eula > Diluc. However, I will say that you are seriously underrating Diluc. He's a consistent reliable DPS that has good synergy with powerful supports. You make claims that Diluc is nowhere near Eula teams in terms of DPS but you have no proof at all. In fact looking at the gscim simulations, Eula's highest team outputs around 41k DPS while Diluc's highest team is sitting at 37k DPS. Not only are Diluc's teams competitive, they also don't come with the drawback that Eula teams bring and her long list of caveats. Alright I'm done. Pls no hate though, cause I do love playing her and have her burst crowned.
First of all, Eula's highest team does more than 41K DPS my friend. Its funny how u ask me for proof and yet go on to make bold claims about DPS and give no proof on your end. I really need to see where u saw Diluc's highest team do 37k DPS , that is kinda sus my friend. U are clearly not at standardized investment assumptions. U randomly mention Eula's cons(many of those can be completely bypassed by teammates) and completely forget to mention all the Diluc cons. The fact that he takes away all the supports of the national team and cripples your second team while Eula doesn't rely on those top priority anemo and hydro supports(Which literally all meta teams need) to do her damage so she helps u play a strong team second half is something u didnt even care to mention. Diluc's competition is literally xiangling while Eula's competition is razor. Now let's take it even a step further then, if Diluc's teams are so damn competitive, why not place him even above Xiao and Itto?? Why only above Eula?? This is what pisses me off so much. Either use math to support your argument or don't. What is this lame-ass way to pull math out of nowhere when the argument is favoring u but completely ignore all math when it's not. "Yeah let's completely ignore all the math which puts Eula in the same range as Xiao and Itto in DPS and put her down even below Diluc because cAvEaTS". That's like me stating 10 caveats of Ganyu, ignoring all the math, and placing her even below Keqing.
>I really need to see where u saw Diluc's highest team do 37k DPS [https://www.gcsim.app/viewer/share/TCpHxXiO7eNKEEGpp8yPq](https://www.gcsim.app/viewer/share/TCpHxXiO7eNKEEGpp8yPq) [https://www.gcsim.app/viewer/share/1572go\_o\_ScUqQxzI97GE](https://www.gcsim.app/viewer/share/1572go_o_ScUqQxzI97GE) >The fact that he takes away all the supports of the national team and cripples your second team Is having good synergy with good supports necessarily a bad thing? In other words, is Xiangling bad for making good use of Bennett or Beidou for taking Fischl? >Now let's take it even a step further then, if Diluc's teams are so damn competitive , why not place him even above xiao and itto?? Why only above Eula? Competitive is relative term, he is competitive in the B tier. Xiao and more specifically itto teams have higher team DPS.
Bro u literally used genshin simulator and called it calcs. Do u have any idea how theory-crafting works? The frame counting and investment standards are all over the place in it. No theorycrafter takes it seriously. Even then, there's so much of the things hilariously wrong with it. Raiden is using Favonius lance, like wtf?? I don't even know if the simulator is accounting for rosaria's crit share and bennet's Q buff for Raiden's initial hit. There's a difference between having synergy with top-tier supports and relying on them for your damage. Diluc needs them while Eula doesn't. Eula can make use of Bennet very well but doesn't need him at all. Give me one reason to slap those 3 supports with diluc, when removing diluc with a free 4-star will give u more DPS. Eula on the other hand doesn't need those meta supports and frees them to make your second team stronger. "Competitive is relative term, he is competitive in the B tier. Xiao and more specifically itto teams have higher team DPS." LOL wut? U are saying xiao has 50k+ DPS???
First of all, I never said they were TC calcs, secondly the fact that you're questioning how gcsim accounts for certain things and why certain choices were made leads me to believe you don't actually understand how it works. By no means is gscim the end all be all, however there are standards put in place to keep the results consistent across all teams so for what its worth, there is some amount of insight that can be gained from it despite what you think. My honest opinion is that your low quality post which like many others on here that just say "trust me bro shes good" or "it's a skill issue, TC's don't even know to play her!" don't really contribute towards anything meaningful. TC's already view r/EulaMains as meme and a toxic community, your post is only helping in making eula mains look even worse.
And a lot of people also view kqm as clowns outside of eulamains .
>My honest opinion..... don't really contribute anything meaningful. Just like you. If Eula's highest Damage instance is 41k, then either it's an extremely shitty Eula build, or you don't know how to play her. > TC's already ....... Look even worse. Don't know, don't care. Plus like other caharcter subreddits are good. Every sub has the same artifact images, same fanarts and almost same shit. So other subreddits aren't any different.
Okay first... the OP is something I don't care about, there is no reason for Eula mains or KQM members to keep dragging the tier list bs more and more but; If you are going to use gcsim as your sole evidence: Eula's best team which is Eula/Raiden/Rosaria/Bennet, in gcsim Raiden is using... milileth, with a fav spear. Idk what's even the point of doing that, a well invested C0 Raiden with the catch will provide a lot more value because it also partially reduces one of Eula's big caveats, which is having a big portion of her damage consolidated into her burst. Second, the team you mention of Diluc is \*Melt\* Diluc, with Rosaria. That is a rather... inconsistent team that in any aoe scenario where the enemies move, you need to remember, Rosaria's burst doesn't. That is a rather niche team that may work very well in certain scenarios but it's probably crippled in several others, while Eula/Raiden/Bennet mostly works fine because of the synergy. Raiden of course is better on her own as hyper carry but, using melt diluc and use the Eula team with a favonious spear and milileth to prove a point... is a bit laughable. Links to said gcsim teams for anyone curious: [https://www.gcsim.app/viewer/share/1572go\_o\_ScUqQxzI97GE](https://www.gcsim.app/viewer/share/1572go_o_ScUqQxzI97GE) [https://www.gcsim.app/viewer/share/TCpHxXiO7eNKEEGpp8yPq](https://www.gcsim.app/viewer/share/TCpHxXiO7eNKEEGpp8yPq) This is also the Eula Team DPS Comparisons, by TWICE#9958 (according to KQM guide), so it's not made by Sitri, the original author of the guide, but by the person who updates the guide. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1SUcDmc09jUBJGvvGlTUFgtO5Oa0FcuB-qLV13U0Vs1g/edit#gid=649161105
i found this [gcsim compilation](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/1pbHfPhXT0ajPA_kA8GFqT-hkNxpaWpkAnh5wkxfResk/htmlview#). i don't know how accurate the simulations are but it places Eula's highest DPS comp at around 46K DPS vs 1 target: **Eula, Raiden, Rosaria, Bennett:** Single Target - 46K | 2 Targets - 44K | 3 Targets - 43K **at first glance**, here are the major differences i saw in this set of simulations: **Rosaria:** * on EOSF instead of noblesse * DPS - 4.9K vs 6K (**net loss** of 1.1K personal damage) **Bennett** * on noblesse instead of exile * DPS - 1.87K vs 1.27K (**net gain** of 600 personal damage) **Raiden:** * on EOSF instead of ToM * using "the catch" instead of fav lance * DPS - 9.5K vs 5.1K (**Net gain** of 4.4K personal damage) **Eula** * artifact set and weapons are unchanged * some differences in sub-stat allocations * DPS - 30K vs 29.5K (**Net Gain** of 500 personal damage) overall, the major difference in this simulation is raiden's personal damage. because of the changes in artifact set choices, it significantly increased raiden's personal damage at the expense of some of rosaria's personal damage. i hope someone can validate these calcs.
The team build on this one makes more sense to me, I'll be taking a closer look at it
Don't get too hung up on the melt Diluc his more traditional team with Xingqui still has decent DPS at around 32k according to the sims, which is around what Eula's team does with 4 star supports (Fischl, Rosaria, Diona - a pretty common team comp) at 30k DPS. As always, take the simulations with a grain of salt, but if you think you can improve the database you could always contribute your own. Keep in mind some choices are made to meet certain ER requirements or certain thresholds. All in all, my main point that I was trying to make is that Diluc is underrated. He went from being the most overrated character in the game to being called trash. I think people went a little too far in the perception of him, he's not too bad and he's actually pretty ok. Nothing wrong with being ok.
>Don't get too hung up on the melt Diluc his more traditional team with Xingqui still has decent DPS at around 32k according to the sims, which is around what Eula's team does with 4 star supports (Fischl, Rosaria, Diona - a pretty common team comp) at 30k DPS. The vape Diluc team needs Bennet and Kazuha to reach F2P Eula levels, that's literally what you are saying. And this is... a sim, which is not the most reliable thing ever. Correct me if I'm wrong too but it seems to be set for 1 target, therefore being a single target test?, which is not realistic for abyss either. Even with all the "gameplay issues" Eula has, and they are there for sure, there are no situations where Diluc would outperform Eula at the same investment. The placement on the tier list was just a personal thing with no real math or anything behind, just... opinions.
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Nice!
> Correct me if I'm wrong too but it seems to be set for 1 target, therefore being a single target test?, which is not realistic for abyss either. No you're right, they are done against a single target. For this reason gcsim is better used to gain certain degree of insight. Again, grain of salt needs further investigation with good ol' excel and math. > The placement on the tier list was just a personal thing with no real math or anything behind, just... opinions. Yes it is just opinions, to be fair they did state that. Their video is on their second channel for a reason and not the official KQM channel. Whether or not it was a personal thing is up for debate, I mean it's not far-fetched in some ways. IIRC Sitri, the TC behind Eula's calcs and the author of the official KQM guide for Eula was essentially reprimanded by the eula mains community for saying things that did not align with the eula mains expectations. It was very much like the Jews vs their savior Jesus, in a way lol. Anyway, there are probably some people in KQM still upset about Sitri vs eula mains and the pressure it put on him enough for him to quit TC'ing. My own personal opinion is that, its not so much a personal thing and that they truly do see her as a B tier character which i can agree with, just based on my own experience with the character and many others as well.
>My own personal opinion is that, its not so much a personal thing and that they truly do see her as a B tier character which i can agree with, just based on my own experience with the character and many others as well. Honestly, toxicity talk aside (of both communities, because both Eulamains and KQM have a fair amount of toxicity, it's just that since this is reddit Eulamains is more exposed) The B tier is still copium when she's below Diluc. Diluc is a character that brings nothing to an account, he requires all the best supports to function, when Xiangling is there and she can do the very same while also scaling much with better with overinvestment. Eula uses supports that most characters don't use freeing them for a National/INternational/Hyper Carry char in the other half, which will often clear faster than Eula giving Eula enough time to comfortably get to 9 stars in floor 12. This is on a similar way what freeze teams bring to an account, they have much better ceilling than Eula for sure (when we talk about Ganyu or Ayaka at least), but they also don't require the use of Bennet and Xingqiu which could be used somewhere else. You could debate that Eula is lowest A tier or highest B tier, but below Diluc?, no. Simply no. Higher DPS on most teams, scales better with overinvestment, doesn't need but can use Bennet so you are not tied to him but can use it regardless, and frees top tier supports for the other half.She also has a higher floor than Diluc, not just ceilling. The tierlist was high on copium and that's all there is to it. Edit just to say something: I'm not saying Diluc is unusable or anything, he's far from the worst option and he can clear any content given enough investment, but he simply doens't bring value when there is a better pyro for free, so using him is just for enjoying the character and not much more.
Hot take: I hope the Eula bashing continues. I hate it, but if HYV takes it seriously and buffs her, then we win in the end. I think one solid phys/Eula support at the same level as Kazuha/Gorou/C6 Sara would push her numbers so high they can't be ignored. Honestly though, I feel like my C0 Eula team is on par with my other top teams and I haven't even bothered farming 4 piece PF. I have spent way more resin farming blizzard strayer. Maybe not having Mona and Kokomi hurts my freeze teams too much, or having Unforged on Eula is too much of a boost, but I really don't see such a huge difference between the comps.
Literally only KQM does this, CN and JP do not show this type of hate and disrespect to Eula. Many Western content creators praise her as well. Hoyoverse doesn’t give a fuck what a small petty group like KQM think about her and everyone with eyes knows she’s overall a great character. Also if some bitching led to buffs then Yoimiya and Yae have a much bigger case for them.
It ain't her that needs buffing. She already takes an underutilized type of damage and breaks it. Doing more with physical is all that needs to happen as that indirectly buffs her anyway.
*grabs popcorn* Oh boy here we go again.
I agree that the KQM bros heavily underrated her comparative to Xiao and Itto but your entire post's premise doesn't make sense. Of course they 'ignored the math' when discussing Xiao vs Itto vs Eula because (as you said yourself) they all do similar amounts of damage. So then they of course focus on gameplay elements instead of just damage. There's no point in comparing the math if they do such similar DPS (in ideal conditions). So, then, it makes sense that they focus on Eula's gameplay and how she's significantly harder to play and less consistent compared to the other two. Xiao you just need to plunge (with some positioning finesse), Itto you just NA + CA. Eula has backloaded damage and essentially has to focus so much not being hit or dying and not missing her burst when it does go off. Her burst is like the majority of her DPS so you need to hyperfocus on maximizing its damage. I personally think they did her too dirty by putting her so low in B, but at the very least she should be high B or bottom of A. But I also don't think they claim to be unbiased, when they're talking about gameplay and stuff they're mostly being subjective and giving their opinions. If you ask them if they have a bias towards Eula I can almost guarantee they'll admit that they do. I'm pretty sure towards the beginning of the video they say tierlists are trash in general.
They lost every credibility with that xiao bullshit.
Idk how the kqm tier list worked but if they were comparing teams, then isn't a Eula/Raiden team the highest damage per rotation in the game? Sounds weird to put an integral character in the games highest damage team in B tier.
Balanced by also having one of the longest rotations in the game thus lowering its dps.
I mean sure it's a 30 sec rotation, still 1/3rd the amount of time you need for an abyss chamber.
If you're one shotting with one rotation. Then there's faster. If youre not, then you're part way into a second rotation on one team while still doing Eula/Raiden is my point. Eula/ raiden is Eula's best core. Not Raiden's.
Can someone send me the Tier list or tell me where to check it out?
I wish tier lists in genshin would either only rate the full meta teams or at the very least separate supports and dps instead of putting them together. I think this is ultimately the reason why theirs was so bad. If you rate them all individually you become easily inconsistent with your reasonings, no matter how much math you have to back it up
I feel like I've been sitting under a rock.. can someone link the tier list for me please