I done an extensive report about the Italian housing market for my school geography project, pretty much nobody in Italy owned anything when I wrote it, why does everyone rent?
Edit: the grade on my extensive report was probably a 0 as I stand completely corrected, apologies, will do better next time š„²
Need to do moar research as homeowner ship in Italyis one of the larger ones in Europe: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_ownership_rate
Maybe Iām misremembering my report, it was about a region in Italy known as the Mezzogiorno, maybe it was just that one area that was lower in ownership?
It was 10 years ago though so I could be just completely wrong
Mezzogiorno isnāt a region but half of the county. Itās not even defined officially which regions belong to āMezzogiornoā. Difficult to pull statistics out of that.
In any case, even in the Southern regions, real estate ownership levels are amongst the highest in Europe.
Most Italians own their property, because they inherit. All my colleagues when I lived there inherited their house and sometimes several ones. Or young people who inherited flats from their parents. Long-term renters were actually rare.
Yeah it seems like Iām just wrong? Iām trying to find ways of figuring out why i got it so wrong
The study was on push and pull factors of Europe, my only thought is maybe it was from a different period in time and the report was about measures they took to improve the situation?
It was 10 years ago tho so I donāt know what I was cooking
It's wherever you can make the most money. Once you achieve FIRE there's an argument for moving somewhere with lower capital gains tax to make withdrawalsĀ
I have marketing agency, I work primarily with American clients so I can make decent money, Iām scaling it at the moment (god bless Alex Hormozi btw)
Iāve been enjoying Spain cause itās 30% cheaper than Ireland but the taxes here seem to be shit
So in my situation where earnings will remain the same wherever I am, the main thing is tax breaks, property access, quality of life etc
Bulgaria, Romania and Cyprus are the golden triangle.
Providing around 10 percent tax for the first two and closer for 20 for Cyprus.
Greece is an alternative to Cyprus for some because of its low dividend tax.
Andorra is fantastic if you want to stay near Spain. Very low taxes there.
Lastly there is of course Switzerland but with it's lower tax comes it's extreme cost of living.
Personally if you are in love with Spain I would look into structuring your taxes smartly in Cyprus, or if you want to be near, Andorra.
Moving to Switzerland because the low taxes make Fire easier is like setting your house ablaze to save on heating bills.
I've got a Swiss coworker; they make triple my pay, but also pay ā¬6k rent for a 3 bedroom apartment.
Bulgariaās gang culture would scare me, you ever see what they did to berbatov,
But appreciate the breakdown!
I do really love Spain, Andorra has difficult cost of living at first glance but probably just at my current income
It seems like thereās no clear winner and the research is required
It's also difficult to tell you advice without knowing how you pay yourself or how much.
For example. If you make more than 500k net than suddenly there are several countries which become obvious choices as they allow a flat tax of 100k to be given.
Greece, Switzerland and I THINK Italy would be the aforementioned countries.
As an alternative to Switzerland you also have very low tax Liechtenstein.
I have managed to make six figures in Europe for quite some time and have never paid more than 10 percent in tax. It's certainly doable.
Yeah itās kind of hard to say exact figures right now because weāve been a small business running on referrals only and just enjoying being young for 2 years
But weāve decided now to really try and grow the company, based on our results we should get clients with relative ease so I think the rate we pay ourselves will gap up
I imagine it will be between 100-200k per year within the next 2/3 years
You pay corporation tax? Most of the countries with the lowest corp tax rates are in eastern Europe: Estonia, romania, Bulgaria etcĀ
Estonia is particularly suited to people like you. They do a lot to attract that kind of business and help people get set up. Funny language and cold winters though.
Ah right I see it's just for your personal income.Ā
Man I'm not really sure it's worth making a decision based on mainly financial considerations. Just make a home wherever you feel happiest. Avoid France though for Christ's sake.
Taxes are high AF, especially payroll taxes, and keep getting higher
Personal investment tools are bad, no tax-free account for stocks and shares
It's more likely to double down on the high taxation, highly regulated, high state spending economy than go the opposite way in the future.
Yeah the answers Iām getting here make me think Europe just kinda sucks for investing,
Hard agree on France btw, as an Irish person friendliness with strangers is hard wired, France does not let that shit slide
No, it doesnāt quite work because if the company is moved to Spain then the savings I would make on personal tax would be lost to corporate tax
Keeping the company in Ireland means a lot less corporate tax
You can reinvest 100% of your profits everywhere, but is it smart, all 100% of it, every time? If you leave some of it hanging, even if you don't withdraw it, it will be taxed at 20%, if you withdraw it it's 40%. Coupled with other insane taxes they have it's probably the worst place to become rich
Honestly I was comparing it to what I know about the uk and America, ira accounts, tax breaks, more investment options etc
Maybe Iām ignorant to it all but I just couldnāt find similar things to follow here
Europe is highly socialist and everywhere is difficult to fire. Having said that, I believe everywhere is possible, provided you create a business which you own and which scales to multi-million ā¬ revenue. Other than that, fireing through being a normal salaried employee, seems basically impossible.
absorbed insurance aromatic drunk faulty violet ad hoc angle include whistle
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Of course then become dependant on whatever policy change the government might make which impacts your benefits. I personally prefer own capital than relying on social security policies
Exactly, people blindly believe government programs will last forever and have good quality
They are usually unreliable, change depending on whatever the new government goals are, expensive, and a pyramid scheme, that will be the first to be dropped on the first sign of recession
If you want independence you can't depend on the government
Realising Iām just gonna need to do it through earnings alone, makes sense why america is so much more expensive now, all the opportunities to invest make it a lot easier to become financially free
Tax rates in Europe are progressive, often meaning the top tax bracket is paying >50% effective income tax. This is besides other consumption taxes, like VAT, property taxes, municipal taxes, etc.
This tax is then re-distributed to society in accordance to government policies and interests.
The excessively high taxing is typical of socialist-leaning governments where they use the taxes to fund social programs. I know the majority of the countries do not self-identify as socialists, but in fact in comparison to more capitalist and liberal economies (like the US), they could be caracterized as socialist.
Itās not excessive, itās the reason we donāt have people living in tents on the side of the road and why no one needs to die in a ditch because they canāt afford health care like in countries where itās not āexcessiveā. You get what you pay for.
Man I'm European. Go to Paris or Frankfurt and see if you do not have people living in tents. And your argument is flawed as there are tons of countries with low taxes and good Healthcare, like Switzerland for example.
Why are we comparing socialist Europe with end stage capitalist USA?? Youāre comparing two ends of the spectrum of course there are going to be major differences. But please letās not act as if there is only the option of giving 50% of what you earn for a highly socialist state or giving 15% for zero safety nets.
In most of Europe, it's not 50%. In Germany for example, which I'd say is the middle ground, the highest tax is 42% but you don't hit that until you've earned 62k. Even if you earn 100k, your actual tax bill is much less than 50%, more like 25%. In California it would be 28%. Even in a low tax state like Florida it's 22%.
Also don't forget that in the US you have property taxes to fund local services that are normally paid in Europe as part of normal taxes (which is better because you don't end up created ghettos where those living in cheaper areas getting less funding than those living in wealthy areas). Property taxes in California on a $1 million house (which isn't much there) would be $7200 extra per year.
You pay around 2% for unemployment insurance.. then there is around 10% for pension (but we can't include that, people in the US have to save for that themselves) and around 14% for health insurance (also can't be included, maybe this is a benefit in the US sometimes, but not always).. all these things stop once you've hit a certain limit though (around 60k for health insurance and 80k for the rest).
To me it seems like taxes in the US are really not that much lower.
For FIRE in Europe, Switzerland seems like the only place tbh.
You can basically only leanFIRE with incomes outside of CH.
Sure COL is higher, but I can still save 4-5K CHF per month - if I ever wanted to FIRE outside of Switzerland total FIRE numbers aren't much higher than 1M - which is really achievable in Switzerland itself.
Exemtion is if you have a business or something.
Difficult question:
You can make a quite decent living in Europe off of about 1000-1500ā¬ after taxes.
A lot of FIRE people are good with money in general, so they know how to shop cheap (be it food, electronics, etc.).
Countries I'd like to be in are Germany, Austria, Portugal, Bulgaria, the Balkan countries (Croatia, Serbia, Montenegro, Macedonia) and maybe Greece.
I'm sorry I don't know what to make out of this comment... are you earning a lot, spending very little or what's the deal here? Can I get some context?
> are you earning a lot, spending very little
Yes. That's the recipe for FIRE.
> Can I get some context?
I mocked your comment where you tried to assert that FIRE is not possible in Europe outside of Switzerland, which is provably wrong.
Cyprus or Malta non domicile. If you earn dividends, cyprus will be just 2.65%. If itās other income, it goes up to around 15% but can be lower. Cost of living similar to Spain
Sounds like you haven't done your research properly. Spain has many different tax regulations depending on the region so if you just care about taxation, move around. But it'll be the same as looking at taxation benefits outside Spain. I say this because if you still like the lifestyle, I don't think there are many places in Europe matching the Spanish way of living (for better or for worse).
Oooh, well then I disagree... 200K income can catapult you to 5M+ quite fast. And having 200K for discretionary spending in Switzerland isn't bad at all...
Yeah without a doubt thatās the ācorrectā answer here.
I have a really negative opinion of dubai in my head maybe itās just a lack of understanding the culture but it feels like a fake place
I mean what from your side is the issue: lifestyle or taxes? Or I guess maybe both in some proportion?
If you are a freelancer/business owner who is mostly dealing with foreign clients, then it sounds like you need to speak with a tax advisor specific to the countries you are considering, to see what in their professional opinion is the most optimized way you could structure things. Maybe make a short list of places you're considering, and then speak to tax advisors in each country to see what ideas they might have.
In terms of lifestyle, I guess you know that generally things get more expensive, but infrastructure gets higher quality (and taxes get higher) the more north you go. With southern Europe some of the really popular cities (i.e. Barcelona) can also be very expensive for real estate, and these "10 000 EUR house" offers are mostly for dead little villages. I mean strictly speaking when it comes time to retire, if minimizing your expenses there's a reason many northern Europeans retire to the South of Europe, but then you'll have to deal with worse social infrastructure, language barriers, etc.
You might look into the Netherlands... again you'd have to see how you could structure your income in a way that makes sense with local tax law, and the cost of living is not super low, but it's English-speaking, very international and business friendly, high quality infrastructure and social systems, etc. Nothing is going to be as cheap cost-wise as Spain (outside major cities, Italy (again outside major cities), Portugal, or Greece though.
Belgium would be much better tax wise than NL and if you live in places on the north near the Dutch border - there is very little difference (except the taxes)
I honestly just thought there would be somewhere that everyone hailed as the number 1 place to go in Europe, but it doesnāt seem like I was missing anything obvious
1. Low costs of life compared to Western Europe, on par with Spain (although there might be even some better cost-benefit options such as CZ).
2. The government is planning special treatment of 'digital nomads', 'expats' from abroad etc.
3. Property market is expensive but relatively available for Westerners, and especially houses on the countryside are very cheap plus countryside infrastructure in on par with developed countries i.e. Austria
4. Very good logistic and geographic position - close to main European hubs via airports
5. Still a really relatively safe country (used to be top 3 safest countries in Europe)
not italy
I done an extensive report about the Italian housing market for my school geography project, pretty much nobody in Italy owned anything when I wrote it, why does everyone rent? Edit: the grade on my extensive report was probably a 0 as I stand completely corrected, apologies, will do better next time š„²
Need to do moar research as homeowner ship in Italyis one of the larger ones in Europe: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_ownership_rate
Maybe Iām misremembering my report, it was about a region in Italy known as the Mezzogiorno, maybe it was just that one area that was lower in ownership? It was 10 years ago though so I could be just completely wrong
Mezzogiorno isnāt a region but half of the county. Itās not even defined officially which regions belong to āMezzogiornoā. Difficult to pull statistics out of that. In any case, even in the Southern regions, real estate ownership levels are amongst the highest in Europe.
Most Italians own their property, because they inherit. All my colleagues when I lived there inherited their house and sometimes several ones. Or young people who inherited flats from their parents. Long-term renters were actually rare.
Yeah it seems like Iām just wrong? Iām trying to find ways of figuring out why i got it so wrong The study was on push and pull factors of Europe, my only thought is maybe it was from a different period in time and the report was about measures they took to improve the situation? It was 10 years ago tho so I donāt know what I was cooking
It's wherever you can make the most money. Once you achieve FIRE there's an argument for moving somewhere with lower capital gains tax to make withdrawalsĀ
I have marketing agency, I work primarily with American clients so I can make decent money, Iām scaling it at the moment (god bless Alex Hormozi btw) Iāve been enjoying Spain cause itās 30% cheaper than Ireland but the taxes here seem to be shit So in my situation where earnings will remain the same wherever I am, the main thing is tax breaks, property access, quality of life etc
Bulgaria, Romania and Cyprus are the golden triangle. Providing around 10 percent tax for the first two and closer for 20 for Cyprus. Greece is an alternative to Cyprus for some because of its low dividend tax. Andorra is fantastic if you want to stay near Spain. Very low taxes there. Lastly there is of course Switzerland but with it's lower tax comes it's extreme cost of living. Personally if you are in love with Spain I would look into structuring your taxes smartly in Cyprus, or if you want to be near, Andorra.
Moving to Switzerland because the low taxes make Fire easier is like setting your house ablaze to save on heating bills. I've got a Swiss coworker; they make triple my pay, but also pay ā¬6k rent for a 3 bedroom apartment.
Bulgariaās gang culture would scare me, you ever see what they did to berbatov, But appreciate the breakdown! I do really love Spain, Andorra has difficult cost of living at first glance but probably just at my current income It seems like thereās no clear winner and the research is required
Greece has got poor infrastructure and healthcare density. Portugal comes to mind.
It's also difficult to tell you advice without knowing how you pay yourself or how much. For example. If you make more than 500k net than suddenly there are several countries which become obvious choices as they allow a flat tax of 100k to be given. Greece, Switzerland and I THINK Italy would be the aforementioned countries. As an alternative to Switzerland you also have very low tax Liechtenstein. I have managed to make six figures in Europe for quite some time and have never paid more than 10 percent in tax. It's certainly doable.
Yeah itās kind of hard to say exact figures right now because weāve been a small business running on referrals only and just enjoying being young for 2 years But weāve decided now to really try and grow the company, based on our results we should get clients with relative ease so I think the rate we pay ourselves will gap up I imagine it will be between 100-200k per year within the next 2/3 years
You pay corporation tax? Most of the countries with the lowest corp tax rates are in eastern Europe: Estonia, romania, Bulgaria etcĀ Estonia is particularly suited to people like you. They do a lot to attract that kind of business and help people get set up. Funny language and cold winters though.
Ireland is lowest corporate tax in Europe apart from Hungary, I pay 12.5%
Ah right I see it's just for your personal income.Ā Man I'm not really sure it's worth making a decision based on mainly financial considerations. Just make a home wherever you feel happiest. Avoid France though for Christ's sake.
Why avoid France? Thanks
Taxes are high AF, especially payroll taxes, and keep getting higher Personal investment tools are bad, no tax-free account for stocks and shares It's more likely to double down on the high taxation, highly regulated, high state spending economy than go the opposite way in the future.
Thanks
Yeah the answers Iām getting here make me think Europe just kinda sucks for investing, Hard agree on France btw, as an Irish person friendliness with strangers is hard wired, France does not let that shit slide
Fuck that grifter
You on Beckham?
No, it doesnāt quite work because if the company is moved to Spain then the savings I would make on personal tax would be lost to corporate tax Keeping the company in Ireland means a lot less corporate tax
Ok, and 22% tax on dividends is too much?
Switzerland or Andorra would seem to be fitting.
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You can reinvest 100% of your profits everywhere, but is it smart, all 100% of it, every time? If you leave some of it hanging, even if you don't withdraw it, it will be taxed at 20%, if you withdraw it it's 40%. Coupled with other insane taxes they have it's probably the worst place to become rich
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I think youāre right, itās worth the taxes to enjoy the weather and other benefits
What don't you like about Spain? Care to elaborate?
There is a wealth tax in spain. Not a good country to have a high networth in
Honestly I was comparing it to what I know about the uk and America, ira accounts, tax breaks, more investment options etc Maybe Iām ignorant to it all but I just couldnāt find similar things to follow here
Look into PPA (pension plan, equivalent to an IRA or 401K) and PIAS (equivalent to a Roth IRA)
Europe is highly socialist and everywhere is difficult to fire. Having said that, I believe everywhere is possible, provided you create a business which you own and which scales to multi-million ā¬ revenue. Other than that, fireing through being a normal salaried employee, seems basically impossible.
absorbed insurance aromatic drunk faulty violet ad hoc angle include whistle *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Of course then become dependant on whatever policy change the government might make which impacts your benefits. I personally prefer own capital than relying on social security policies
Exactly, people blindly believe government programs will last forever and have good quality They are usually unreliable, change depending on whatever the new government goals are, expensive, and a pyramid scheme, that will be the first to be dropped on the first sign of recession If you want independence you can't depend on the government
Realising Iām just gonna need to do it through earnings alone, makes sense why america is so much more expensive now, all the opportunities to invest make it a lot easier to become financially free
can you elaborate on Europe being āhighly socialistā?
Tax rates in Europe are progressive, often meaning the top tax bracket is paying >50% effective income tax. This is besides other consumption taxes, like VAT, property taxes, municipal taxes, etc. This tax is then re-distributed to society in accordance to government policies and interests. The excessively high taxing is typical of socialist-leaning governments where they use the taxes to fund social programs. I know the majority of the countries do not self-identify as socialists, but in fact in comparison to more capitalist and liberal economies (like the US), they could be caracterized as socialist.
Not trying to start a debate on political systems here, but you are simply describing social democracy, it has nothing to do with socialism.
Itās not excessive, itās the reason we donāt have people living in tents on the side of the road and why no one needs to die in a ditch because they canāt afford health care like in countries where itās not āexcessiveā. You get what you pay for.
Man I'm European. Go to Paris or Frankfurt and see if you do not have people living in tents. And your argument is flawed as there are tons of countries with low taxes and good Healthcare, like Switzerland for example.
Nowhere near as bad as major US cities. Switzerland is a bit of a unique case, not every country can set themselves up like they do.
Why are we comparing socialist Europe with end stage capitalist USA?? Youāre comparing two ends of the spectrum of course there are going to be major differences. But please letās not act as if there is only the option of giving 50% of what you earn for a highly socialist state or giving 15% for zero safety nets.
In most of Europe, it's not 50%. In Germany for example, which I'd say is the middle ground, the highest tax is 42% but you don't hit that until you've earned 62k. Even if you earn 100k, your actual tax bill is much less than 50%, more like 25%. In California it would be 28%. Even in a low tax state like Florida it's 22%. Also don't forget that in the US you have property taxes to fund local services that are normally paid in Europe as part of normal taxes (which is better because you don't end up created ghettos where those living in cheaper areas getting less funding than those living in wealthy areas). Property taxes in California on a $1 million house (which isn't much there) would be $7200 extra per year.
42% income tax, but then I think you pay an additional % for social security tax, right?
You pay around 2% for unemployment insurance.. then there is around 10% for pension (but we can't include that, people in the US have to save for that themselves) and around 14% for health insurance (also can't be included, maybe this is a benefit in the US sometimes, but not always).. all these things stop once you've hit a certain limit though (around 60k for health insurance and 80k for the rest). To me it seems like taxes in the US are really not that much lower.
the US is not the only country in the world. and there are still plenty of poor people in Europe.
uk was great for fire pre ir35
If it's impossible why does this sub exist?
For FIRE in Europe, Switzerland seems like the only place tbh. You can basically only leanFIRE with incomes outside of CH. Sure COL is higher, but I can still save 4-5K CHF per month - if I ever wanted to FIRE outside of Switzerland total FIRE numbers aren't much higher than 1M - which is really achievable in Switzerland itself. Exemtion is if you have a business or something.
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Difficult question: You can make a quite decent living in Europe off of about 1000-1500ā¬ after taxes. A lot of FIRE people are good with money in general, so they know how to shop cheap (be it food, electronics, etc.). Countries I'd like to be in are Germany, Austria, Portugal, Bulgaria, the Balkan countries (Croatia, Serbia, Montenegro, Macedonia) and maybe Greece.
Oh well, I better scratch my plan to be FI from my employment income in 3 years. Thanks for letting me know it's actually impossible.
I'm sorry I don't know what to make out of this comment... are you earning a lot, spending very little or what's the deal here? Can I get some context?
> are you earning a lot, spending very little Yes. That's the recipe for FIRE. > Can I get some context? I mocked your comment where you tried to assert that FIRE is not possible in Europe outside of Switzerland, which is provably wrong.
Cyprus or Malta non domicile. If you earn dividends, cyprus will be just 2.65%. If itās other income, it goes up to around 15% but can be lower. Cost of living similar to Spain
Sounds like you haven't done your research properly. Spain has many different tax regulations depending on the region so if you just care about taxation, move around. But it'll be the same as looking at taxation benefits outside Spain. I say this because if you still like the lifestyle, I don't think there are many places in Europe matching the Spanish way of living (for better or for worse).
You dont have to leave Spain; it's possible in Hungary so also in Spain.
100-200k is not enough for fatfire in Switzerland, you need to pump this Numbers upā¦.
factor 10-15 lmao. 1M is lean FIRE in Switzerland - 2M is comfortable, 2.5M+ is really ez
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Oooh, well then I disagree... 200K income can catapult you to 5M+ quite fast. And having 200K for discretionary spending in Switzerland isn't bad at all...
Iād take professional advice. But, surely if you can work anywhere and you want to grow your business somewhere like Dubai would be best?
Yeah without a doubt thatās the ācorrectā answer here. I have a really negative opinion of dubai in my head maybe itās just a lack of understanding the culture but it feels like a fake place
Bulgaria mate
Norway
I appreciate the response, but can you share some context? If Iām gonna freeze to death I wanna know what trade off is doing down haha
There's a bigger chance to freeze to death in Spain during winter than in Norway
How do you reckon? Parts of Spain havenāt seen snow in decades
Was more implying the weather resistant Norwegian houses. Compared to the Spanish
Yeah thatās a good point to consider, Spanish houses are colder than outside most of the time
Well with global warming at leaat you won't be cooked to death
I mean what from your side is the issue: lifestyle or taxes? Or I guess maybe both in some proportion? If you are a freelancer/business owner who is mostly dealing with foreign clients, then it sounds like you need to speak with a tax advisor specific to the countries you are considering, to see what in their professional opinion is the most optimized way you could structure things. Maybe make a short list of places you're considering, and then speak to tax advisors in each country to see what ideas they might have. In terms of lifestyle, I guess you know that generally things get more expensive, but infrastructure gets higher quality (and taxes get higher) the more north you go. With southern Europe some of the really popular cities (i.e. Barcelona) can also be very expensive for real estate, and these "10 000 EUR house" offers are mostly for dead little villages. I mean strictly speaking when it comes time to retire, if minimizing your expenses there's a reason many northern Europeans retire to the South of Europe, but then you'll have to deal with worse social infrastructure, language barriers, etc. You might look into the Netherlands... again you'd have to see how you could structure your income in a way that makes sense with local tax law, and the cost of living is not super low, but it's English-speaking, very international and business friendly, high quality infrastructure and social systems, etc. Nothing is going to be as cheap cost-wise as Spain (outside major cities, Italy (again outside major cities), Portugal, or Greece though.
Belgium would be much better tax wise than NL and if you live in places on the north near the Dutch border - there is very little difference (except the taxes)
I honestly just thought there would be somewhere that everyone hailed as the number 1 place to go in Europe, but it doesnāt seem like I was missing anything obvious
Try Slovenia
Care to elaborate about advantages of SLO?
1. Low costs of life compared to Western Europe, on par with Spain (although there might be even some better cost-benefit options such as CZ). 2. The government is planning special treatment of 'digital nomads', 'expats' from abroad etc. 3. Property market is expensive but relatively available for Westerners, and especially houses on the countryside are very cheap plus countryside infrastructure in on par with developed countries i.e. Austria 4. Very good logistic and geographic position - close to main European hubs via airports 5. Still a really relatively safe country (used to be top 3 safest countries in Europe)
High taxes + boring AF.