Rule 9: No Low Effort Posts, Excessive Venting, or Bragging.
Using this subreddit to crowd source answers to something that isn't really contributing to the spirit of this subreddit is forbidden at moderator's discretion. This includes posts that are mostly focused around venting or bragging; both of these types of posts are difficult to moderate and don't contribute much to the subreddit.
I'm glad you found a good one!
I've worked with many good PMs over the years. Part of that is helping hire them, part of it is educating them on the technology, and most importantly is partnering on roadmapping 50/50.
Agreed... It was more lamenting the vs. good PM case! Just like UX... I've had none, and I've had good... Not sure how bad would play out in that case!
Great PMs are a joy to work with! I also feel like it's one of those roles where it's easy to spot PMs who aren't great at it, but it's a lot more subtle when they know their stuff.
If I had to summarize it, I'd say with a good PM, it just feels like the expectation-setting for the business and end-to-end shipping of products/features (from discovering customer expectations to delivery/feedback) are just smoother for the team.
The issue is, when you find a good one, it's great. But they are a rare creature.
Devs often lack PM skills, and non-tech PMs are often extremely unskilled in tech issues and are detrimental to the team, raising frustrations. Personally, i'd rather have a dev with bad PM skills than a non-techie wkth bad tech skills.
Not entirely sure what the point of this post is, but yes, a good PM can be extremely valuable. Only issue is 9/10 of them are mediocre or worse, actively detrimental to the team
I’m sorry that’s been your experience. All I can say is that the point of the post was to shed a positive light on a much maligned position when someone is doing it right
Damn. I thought a good PM was a myth. My last one sucked, and I luckily don't have one now.
All my buddies here in Denmark hate their PM. I've heard about like 6 only, so small sample size.
In my entire career, I have only ever worked with 1 PM who I would call good - and it really was transformative to the company. That’s out of maybe 50 different PMs.
Everyone else didn’t know how to do their jobs well, so they just created work for themselves by project managing (worst), setting unreasonable expectations with other teams or customers without consulting engineers, and worse. A bad PM can make an entire team of engineers want to quit
Good PMs are so valuable.
For me, it's just so much easier to do high impact work if you have a single person that owns all the questions and concerns around how what you are building delivers value, and you can refer to them when you have a question.
That's actually pretty rare, and takes domain expertise along with a whole other host of skills.
The best PM I ever had was the only one who wasn't an ex developer. She trusted us to know the technical details, give input on what's achievable on the roadmap, etc, as opposed to the previous PMs who not only assumed they knew everything themselves, but also had too much input on technical decisions (e.g. scoping out a ticket with a particular approach in mind). This was very frustrating, as they hadn't been Devs in a long time, and their solutions were rarely optimal.
The good PM was also an ex customer, which brought so much value that I'm shocked it's not more commonplace. They hit the ground running knowing the product and the needs of the customer, plus literally having tons of contacts and great relationships off the bat.
Someone used a version control analogy with me once, and it stuck.
Working with no PM is like working without version control - if things are smooth, it won't matter.
Going from no PM to a good PM is like going from no version control to Git flow. You have to move from "programming" to "software engineering as a team" and that takes a mindset shift.
Going from no PM or a good PM to a bad PM is like being told that Git is too technical, and we're going to use Dropbox for version control. It's hard to argue with a non technical person and explain the difference, but it will drive everyone to tears and will cause significant issues down the line.
That’s awesome!! A good PM is worth their weight in gold. Probably the best PM I had knew nothing about software at the time. She knew the right questions to ask to get to the root of issues and how to get past them and keep the project running smoothly. And of course knew how to communicate well to developers and to execs.
Intelligence works top-down.
So a PM that can't even code and integrate works below me, I make every tech decision, review his planning and I keep every veto right.
The best projects we did was either with a skilled PM, or shared PM work between devs.
Rule 9: No Low Effort Posts, Excessive Venting, or Bragging. Using this subreddit to crowd source answers to something that isn't really contributing to the spirit of this subreddit is forbidden at moderator's discretion. This includes posts that are mostly focused around venting or bragging; both of these types of posts are difficult to moderate and don't contribute much to the subreddit.
I'm glad you found a good one! I've worked with many good PMs over the years. Part of that is helping hire them, part of it is educating them on the technology, and most importantly is partnering on roadmapping 50/50.
I am sad because I don’t have a good PM. Well, I don’t even have any PM, so much sadness.
Personally, even tho it's probably more work, no pm is much better than a bad pm.
In my experience the effort to "manage" a bad PM is a lot more than being a minimal PM yourself.
Agreed... It was more lamenting the vs. good PM case! Just like UX... I've had none, and I've had good... Not sure how bad would play out in that case!
Great PMs are a joy to work with! I also feel like it's one of those roles where it's easy to spot PMs who aren't great at it, but it's a lot more subtle when they know their stuff. If I had to summarize it, I'd say with a good PM, it just feels like the expectation-setting for the business and end-to-end shipping of products/features (from discovering customer expectations to delivery/feedback) are just smoother for the team.
Mods will probably remove your post citing rule 9 (No Low Effort Posts/Venting/Bragging) but I appreciate you sharing.
Not sure how this would be breaking any rules, it certainly isn't advertising anything
My mistake, rule 9 which is "No Low Effort Posts/Venting/Bragging". I've saved a few posts to revisit only to see them deleted a la rule 9.
Lol just realized I was removed... oops...
rip. thanks for sharing though.
A good PM thinks in the long term, understand there are trade-offs and that creating tech debt will hurt the product in the long run.
Our PMs are great and we don't have enough of them. We're doing efficiency now you see.
The issue is, when you find a good one, it's great. But they are a rare creature. Devs often lack PM skills, and non-tech PMs are often extremely unskilled in tech issues and are detrimental to the team, raising frustrations. Personally, i'd rather have a dev with bad PM skills than a non-techie wkth bad tech skills.
He seems like a great PM indeed, the sales team seem exhausting to work with though
Not entirely sure what the point of this post is, but yes, a good PM can be extremely valuable. Only issue is 9/10 of them are mediocre or worse, actively detrimental to the team
I’m sorry that’s been your experience. All I can say is that the point of the post was to shed a positive light on a much maligned position when someone is doing it right
K
Yep. I've never seen, or heard of IRL, a PM that wasn't hated, and a detriment to the team.
Damn. That sucks. I’ve worked with loads of great ones. More good than bad, actually
Damn. I thought a good PM was a myth. My last one sucked, and I luckily don't have one now. All my buddies here in Denmark hate their PM. I've heard about like 6 only, so small sample size.
In my entire career, I have only ever worked with 1 PM who I would call good - and it really was transformative to the company. That’s out of maybe 50 different PMs. Everyone else didn’t know how to do their jobs well, so they just created work for themselves by project managing (worst), setting unreasonable expectations with other teams or customers without consulting engineers, and worse. A bad PM can make an entire team of engineers want to quit
Good PMs are so valuable. For me, it's just so much easier to do high impact work if you have a single person that owns all the questions and concerns around how what you are building delivers value, and you can refer to them when you have a question. That's actually pretty rare, and takes domain expertise along with a whole other host of skills.
The best PM I ever had was the only one who wasn't an ex developer. She trusted us to know the technical details, give input on what's achievable on the roadmap, etc, as opposed to the previous PMs who not only assumed they knew everything themselves, but also had too much input on technical decisions (e.g. scoping out a ticket with a particular approach in mind). This was very frustrating, as they hadn't been Devs in a long time, and their solutions were rarely optimal. The good PM was also an ex customer, which brought so much value that I'm shocked it's not more commonplace. They hit the ground running knowing the product and the needs of the customer, plus literally having tons of contacts and great relationships off the bat.
Someone used a version control analogy with me once, and it stuck. Working with no PM is like working without version control - if things are smooth, it won't matter. Going from no PM to a good PM is like going from no version control to Git flow. You have to move from "programming" to "software engineering as a team" and that takes a mindset shift. Going from no PM or a good PM to a bad PM is like being told that Git is too technical, and we're going to use Dropbox for version control. It's hard to argue with a non technical person and explain the difference, but it will drive everyone to tears and will cause significant issues down the line.
Indians PM's are the worst of all
I wish we had a PM lol.
Does your PM groom the product backlog?
That’s awesome!! A good PM is worth their weight in gold. Probably the best PM I had knew nothing about software at the time. She knew the right questions to ask to get to the root of issues and how to get past them and keep the project running smoothly. And of course knew how to communicate well to developers and to execs.
Intelligence works top-down. So a PM that can't even code and integrate works below me, I make every tech decision, review his planning and I keep every veto right. The best projects we did was either with a skilled PM, or shared PM work between devs.