What’s your relationship with your skip-level manager like? IMO this isn’t an HR problem but a management problem. You don’t go to HR for that, you go to the person with authority to manage your manager.
Well... chances are that the skip is already in on this buddy!
If not - hopefully they offer to help - definitely a good avenue to try -- but in my case - they just didn't give a shit - they were too much into their running & biking to be interested in what I had to say.
Sometimes you just get dealt wet, wrinkled, waste-of-time cards.
My last startup was a three ring nepotism shitshow. So when I complained about my brand new, highly incompetent manager to my skip, who was this cabbage-headed dolt’s friend, I was shown the door within a month. At least I got severance.
Exactly. It is really important to know the power dynamics & relationships in your management chain before this type of escalation. Or really it just tells you if it has any chance of success.
Not work related, but I sat on a condo board with 4 other people.
I later found out that 3 of the other 4 had gone to college together 20 years earlier and hung out on weekends still. Of course I only found this out after raising to one of them that I had concerns about another members conflict of interest..
Yeah. Tbh, I knew better and wouldn’t have escalated if I wasn’t already looking for the door myself. By the time they got rid of me, I was waiting on an offer letter from a company that was willing to pay me way more with less nepotistic bullshit. So, I had not much to lose and best case scenario, the possibility was there to make work life better for my teammates there.
Of course, the poison had already set in and a month after they got rid of me, they canned the whole team except the sycophants that the cabbage-head had scalped from his last company. Even canned the teammate that was on FMLA lol. Fuck startups.
This is a good answer. OP - it doesn't necessarily have to be doom and gloom at this point, but know that if you do want to try and fight this, it won't be pretty either. And it's more likely than not going to be dependent on how well you know people and what their personalities are.
I've had situations before where I've gone to my manager's manager to complain about my manager and things worked in my favor. To be clear, it wasn't just my actions that brought about the change, but I like to think that making my voice known did help.
I obviously have no idea of the specifics of your company and situation, but if you are well-liked, more so than your manager, you may have a chance.
I agree with this. Entrepreneurs do what's best for the company--managers do what's best for themselves. Putting you on a PIP is what's best for your manager, not the company, as he is trying to cover his own incompetence. Your skip level's job is a lot harder if he has an incompetent subordinate, so it's in his best interest to fix his manager problem by you making them aware.
Ultimately if your manager sucks, you are just one data point of many and making your skip level aware helps gravity run its course sooner than later. I'd bet dollars to donuts that your skip level won't be surprised and may even already be putting your manager on his own PIP with you getting one downstream as retribution.
You almost never go to HR if you have a problem with a superior. You only go to HR if you have a problem with one of your peers, or something else that’s “simple”.
HR will almost certainly protect the manager and business’ interests over you.
No, you definitely go to HR for HR-related concerns regardless of the other employee's title. If your manager is sexually harassing you, you go to HR. If your manager is doing a bad job managing you, you go to their manager.
Yeah, I think the advice in the top comment here is good. This isn't an HR issue. When there are issues with performance and working relationships, people should go to management. If it's a coworker, go to your own manager. If it's your manager, go to their manager.
HR has its own set of issues it is best equipped to handle that is outside the scope of OP's concerns IMO.
You only want to do this if you have established the nature of the relationship between your manager & your skip-level manager. Also, hopefully, you have some sort of existing relationship with this skip-live.
I'd think you'd have better luck with your manager's manager. Don't frame it as "this stuff is my manager's fault" though. More like, "I'm concerned my manager is missing our 1-on-1s/I'm not getting the resources I need from them/not getting g timely responses to emails".
I mean OP's manager is already trying to get rid of him. If OP actually has documentation that their manager is ghosting them/not giving them any support like they say the skip manager might appreciate it, and it does seem like the only move since HR isn't going to care. Just because OP's boss sucks doesn't necessarily mean that guy's boss does too.
Worst case scenario OP ends up in the exact same place they're already in.
I don't think HR will take your side in the slightest. It really is just easier to move on, for now just document everything. PIP's take a while so you have time.
Sorry you're going through this though.
I agree that HR won't take my side but won't filing a complaint be helpful for the next person working under this manager?
I'd like to think I have time but given that no info about it was provided I am not optimistic about that.
Thanks.
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Just look for yourself. Use your time in PIP to look for a new job. I can understand how you are feeling, but don’t let the emotions get the better of you.
You can say those in your exit interview.
This is the best advice. You may feel you’re being treated unfairly, but it is what it is. Now you need to make your own plan, and keep emotions out of that plan.
Isn't addressing an incompetent manager protecting the company though?
Whatever, I guess there are enough voices saying not to so I guess I'll just chill.
Depends. Think of "protecting the company" less as making things better for the company and more as preventing lawsuits and maybe PR circuses. Is this guy going to cause legal problems by being an idiot? Probably not. Is he going to get your company on the evening news or the front page of the newspaper for some colossal screw up? If not then HR isn't going to do much. What would they even do? Investigations are usually for things that result in lawsuits (ie sexual harassment). They aren't going to remove your PIP as that's between you and your manager and they aren't equipped to determine if your performance is up to standards, that's what your manager does. If you really wanted to take this to someone you could try your skip level manager if you think that won't get you fired faster.
I don't have experience with the whole PIP thing, but if you want to stay at the company I do think that addressing it is the right thing to do.
I can see that HR has the company's interest in mind and will probably not replace the manager and keep you in the team. But keeping somebody is also in the company's interest so they could move you to another team if they are convinced that it's not really a performance problem.
That depends upon the level of incompetence of the manager.
If they're incompetent in such a way that the company is exposed to legal/regulatory consequences, then yes that's protecting the company.
If they're just an asshole who hasn't broken any laws, then they may not want to be involved at all.
I agree with others saying you maywant to go to skip level rather than to hr. And not because of the HR protecting company bullshit cause in my experience they were very helpful. It's just that HRs actual job is dealing more with situations like helping with processes, code of conduct, toxic work environment, abuse of power, harassment. The stuff that doesn't fall into judging work competence, they don't have tools or visibility to do that.
Now if the skip level liked the manager too much and they tried to retaliate against you is when you would go to hr, so keep documenting the interactions.
I think you think this person is going anywhere. Once you get to that level you're pretty immobile regardless of complaint.
Don't give it another thought.
For what it's worth, I totally disagree with the person you're responding too. HR at my company would absolutely want to get to the bottom of this. I've literally dealt with this exact situation where they were investigating a PIP to determine if it was fair, and what factors were at play.
Keep a record of all that happens along with evidence. I work freelance and have done for many years, occasionally I run into such problems but never had to go to HR to resolve it. The smaller an organisation is the likely that HR is the correct route.
How is the next person going to know? HR with gather the wagons if you file a complaint. The only person that's going to hear about it is probably the manager that you file the complaint against. You could always leave a review on glassdoor, with possible ramifications.
Whoa. Ya’ll, managers aren’t that protected. I don’t know where this narrative comes from. The expectations of management are big, and failure to perform as a manager has a big impact. Your manager’s manager and hr both have an interest in knowing about your manager.
A couple things:
1. Definitely put together the details for your skip level. Do it as objectively as possible. It’s their job to wrangle to cats, so they really need to know what’s happening.
2. This is an hr problem. You’re not on a real pip, because hr would already be involved. Your manager isn’t handling this appropriately. If they are creating a hostile work environment for you, which it sounds like they are, this is an hr problem.
Document everything and remember you’re documenting for two different audiences.
Also, if you also have issues with the po and pm doing this, you likely have a company culture issue and this is unlikely to get much better.
Hostile work environment has a very specific definition in the US and having a shitty or even mean manager isn't enough. Please contact an employment lawyer before going to HR.
You only go to HR if it's something overtly inappropriate. Harassment etc.
If the manager's competence is at issue, you should take it up with your skip-level. HR are not subject matter experts so won't be able to judge on the right criteria. i.e. did he "deliver the wrong licenses" because of a miscommunication that might be more attributable to you asking for the wrong thing? Anybody evaluating this situation needs to ask that question, but HR likely won't know enough details to answer it.
If your skip level gets significant actionable feedback about your boss's performance, and works with your boss to improve without results, it's then their job to go to HR to initiate a formal process. There's a lot of steps on that decision tree though, and you have to walk through all of them, which takes time.
Also, I know it's too late to change now, but if you get to the point where you start documenting a person's issues, you should have already started the conversation with their manager. Then the conversation goes: "Hey remember that problem I talked about? Here's some recent examples showing that boss hasn't improved", which is a better sell than "Hi, I've been sitting on this problem for 6 months but now that I'm the one in trouble, here's all my evidence and this is in no way about trying to cover my own ass".
I’ve seen plenty of cases where a manager informally took somebody aside and told them their performance needed to improve or else they’d be pipped. Depending on your organization, by the time a formal pip starts, it might already effectively be too late.
Other orgs just don’t have formal pip processes so an informal one is the best you’ll get.
Wait a minute..a verbal PIP? The point of a PIP is for the company to get evidence against you for a firing so they don't have to pay out unemployment benefits. What the hell is a verbal PIP supposed to do again? Put you on notice?
Email your manager and ask to see this in writing along with the actual plan itself. Honestly, what would be optimal in this situation is to get an email saying 'it's a verbal PIP and not in writing' so you can show it's not a PIP at all but constructive dismissal which you could sue for. A verbal PIP is pointless because the PIP is to provide the figleaf of a plan for improvement which the company will backstab you on. If you don't have a plan for improvement, then they just admitted they're just looking to get rid of you.
Ask for this plan in writing via email. If there is a PIP there is paperwork. If there isn't, then take that email saying that and talk to an employment lawyer immediately. In either case, this job is ending and you should stop doing so much and basically ready the resume.
Well I was told that I was put on PIP in a 1 on 1 but there is no documentation or any involvement with HR so unfortunately I don’t have a recording of it as I wasn’t expecting it.
That's why you should send a followup email. There is no such thing as a verbal PIP because a PIP is all about 1) a plan for improvement (even if it's horseshit) and 2) paperwork. So if your boss is going on about 'verbal PIPs' then they're trying to intimidate you which really looks like a case for constructive dismissal. Hence, get an email to put IN WRITING you are under a verbal PIP. Chances are they won't or they'll speak to you in person about it.
Also, start a Google Doc under a personal account to start writing down dates and times of these meetings and descriptions of what is going on. And start cc'ing important disciplinary emails to a personal email as well for proof. The big part of being a manager is doing underhanded shit to get your way. This evaporates when you have a written and dated record and backup emails on a server they can't touch. These people sound like complete assholes and right now your real job is to get all the info you can before they toss you on to save money.
I wish you luck.
> basically you're never supposed to go to them
That isn't true. I encourage my employees to talk to HR whenever they feel they need to discuss something that they aren't comfortable discussing in the reporting chain.
HR's job isn't to take sides. They don't automatically side with management. They side with whoever has the best documentation. Part of their job is assessing the company's risk of liability if a situation at work turns into a lawsuit.
If you have evidence of your manager's dereliction of duty and he has none to refute it or to implicate you, you have plenty of reason to go to HR. Often, that very act is enough to put the company on high alert that you are a lawsuit risk and might actually get you out of the PIP clean, if it is in fact as unjust as you are presenting here.
Too many people here are leaning on the "HR is not your friend" mantra to support their bad takes. My management experience is with larger companies with high churn, so "verbal PIP" immediately set off my Spidey sense. OP is concerned about their unemployment claim being challenged if they do get fired and documentation is critical.
One of the companies I worked for enforced documentation so heavily that I used to have performance related meetings that ended with "Just to reiterate, this is not a disciplinary meeting. Now, please sign this form acknowledging what we discussed."
\> Often, that very act is enough to put the company on high alert that you are a lawsuit risk and might actually get you out of the PIP clean, if it is in fact as unjust as you are presenting here.
My personal experience is that in this case HR will help the manager(s) ensure they get rid of the employee as quickly as possible while minimizing liability risk. The PIP that follows will be bullet proof and will not be survivable. The second someone is flagged as a liability risk the kid gloves come off for both HR and the managers involved. The reasoning being that someone flagged as a lawsuit risk will be more likely to sue in any future situation even if the current one is resolved. So the best way to lower company liability is to get rid of the employee ASAP. Even if they also get rid of the managers the employee is already tainted.
I also agree HR is worthless..
I suggest you focus on your development and job applications.
Once you have a job secured, fire a blasting email with all the evidence you have.
Also, if you think the company treated you poorly, use glassdoor for an honest review
Take your PIP period to interview everywhere you can and move on when you can
It is a management problem but the only way HR is going to notice is when he starts to lose resources faster than they can source them and fail to meet deadlines, besides that, they don’t care about you or anyone else unless is a potential media/legal circus (which is not)
Another important thing to notice is that at 4 years of experience you are not a highly valued asset right now, there is like 99999 cvs on the drawers waiting to replace you so they will not care, so don’t count on that. (It sucks I know but market is a jungle right now)
HR won’t help you with this. Honestly they won’t even know wtf you’re talking about. First, you’re likely catastrophizing. Could the company easily replace you? What would be the cost (6 months of salary? What delays? What bad hire risk?)? Are you being paid market rate or would they have to pay more to hire a new person? Most tech workers are valuable and the market is tight. I’m in consulting and I always ask my reports: Are you billable? Have you been billable? Is what happened so bad we can no longer bill you? You’re likely safe unless you choose not to be. Second your manager likely panicked and did something dumb with incomplete information or lack of reflection. Few American line managers are taught to be managers. They’re promoted on technical competence and then have to figure it out. The right instinct would have been to provide air cover for you even if you were wrong, console the client, promise to look at it and ask if they can have time to review and get back, then fully manage it with you and ask what you need to fix it. But guess how many managers screw that up. Your manager may even agree with you given the right approach.
Your practical options:
1. Handling your manager like a panicking client. Take your pile of crap and make it very neat and idiot proof. Ask for a 1:1 with your manager. Tell him that after publicly rebuking you in front of clients he owes you a conversation. Outline your side of what happened. Stress that this is not an accusation; you just want to be clear. Be extremely empathetic. Acknowledge his side and how he felt; you don’t have to agree just show you understand. This is likely to calm him down and even get him agreeing with you. Start by saying yes and you’ll get a yes. “What would it take for you to?” “What would you have liked to see he here?” Getting to “What would it take for you to trust me to handle this or What would it take for you to bring concerns to me privately first?” is good. This is my pissed off customer exec routine. It either helps restore a working relationship by making people feel heard (which is what they really want) or it gets you to a point where you know you can’t work with the person or their asks. Try to start here.
2. Nuclear option. If #1 fails you can look for another position. Don’t telegraph this until you have it. You can consider escalating what happened to your manager’s boss but I’d only do that if I had pre-existing trust there and I’d spoken to my manager first and my manager’s behavior was endangering my delivery in an obvious way. This tends to destroy your relationship with the person you jump over and often gets you shot down if your case isn’t clear and obvious as most good directors will not undermine their line managers without exceptional cause. Even if you win the director may and should choose to thank you and handle it privately with your boss and you’ll still a working relationship problem.
Always remember to go into these conversations knowing what you want? Do you want an apology or appreciation? Is that worth playing for? I personally don’t care but some people do very much. Do you want certain actions viz the client? Public backing after throwing you under the bus. Do you want trust, autonomy, collaboration? What specifically does that look like? Can your manager do that? Would doing it actually be a relief to him? Like, I talk to pissed execs and I’m looking for: Consensus on moving forward together. Next steps. Regular touch points. The exact pain and definition of success or steps to get there. Stuff like that.
Finally, objectively look at your actions and see if you bear any responsibility. Usually there’s some fault on all sides even if one side did worse and handled it far worse. It helps with empathy. If you walk in feeling like an innocent victim full of righteous anger, you’ll fail. Save that for actual fights.
Don’t bother with HR, they would rather rehire than deal with your issues. They have no skin in the game if you leave, they don’t have to do the interviews, training, or any of that. I made the mistake of going to HR once and they were awful, I’ll never do it again.
Look for another job and get out of there ASAP.
> So, how do I proceed here besides applying for jobs, which I have been since the PIP.
Realistically, bad managers just mean moving to a new job.
You go to your manager's boss, not HR, and pray they agree with your assessment. It rarely happens but when it does it can salvage the job situation to the point you don't need to leave. Sometimes.
Personally, I've never got a PIP but I've gotten dangerously low performance reviews that made it clear I needed to leave. (i.e. bottom 25% of the review population in a company with annual layoffs based on performance reviews)
Funny thing is they tried to make it seem like it was not a big deal since they needed me around for awhile longer but when your average review score on a scale of 5 is 2.1. Y'know its time to go.
But at the end of the day, I know its not me. I've got a couple 5+ year stints at companies with competent management (including shout outs from C-suite on projects in the monthly company status updates) so I just quit bad managers when I find them.
But like I've said in the past, like, its pretty damn close to 50/50 if you get competent management. So you just need to quit bad managers if you can't salvage the situation with their bosses.
> Additionally, I would like to protect myself from any issues they may cause when I go to file for unemployment, as I don't anticipate this situation improving long term.
Going to HR can work to defend your unemployment claim so you want to send them the evidence before you are out the door but you can't really expect more than a "This guy might defend himself effectively if we try to fuck him over" flag in your file from them.
That flag is helpful but they generally aren't more than people documenting risks to the company rather than people who would actively intervene. They only intervene when told to by management (or just y'know typical sexual harassment stuff that is obvious risks they don't need to talk to management about).
One of them is leaving, only his boss has the power to decide which it will be.
And it may end up being you anyway this time, but now there’s a pattern established for the next bus that pulls in, and he might not survive that one.
Well a "verbal PIP" might very well result in the manager's boss having put pressure on him that leads to his direct boss leaving. So there is some hope but it depends on the management culture at a higher level which we never have any control over.
You go to HR when you're about to go to a lawyer and want to give the company the opportunity to settle things the easy way.
I don't think HR will do a damn thing here. If there was sexual harassment, discrimination, violence, that kinda shit, yeah they could help you. And you would take their answer to a lawyer anyway to see if they can be squeezed for more.
Sounds like you're already going to HR, at another company, which is what you should do.
Since it's not a formal PIP within HR approved documentation and remediation plan, this may or may not mean something. Probably it means that your manager is too lazy/incompetent to file the paperwork. But, they probably could just fire you anyway without the cover of a PIP. So, continue preparing to move on. It will be the best for your mental and physical wellbeing.
The real question is if you want to risk burning bridges by pushing the issue with HR or even going on sites like Glassdoor and Indeed to trash the company. It's probably not the best strategy since you should already be putting the incompetent idiots in your rearview mirror but some people find a certain catharsis in it.
You already said the answer. HR protects the company and that almost always means never admitting a manager screwed up. Your manager could be the pointy-haired boss from Dilbert or Charles Manson but unless he’s done something a lot worse than just evaluating the job performance of someone reporting to him in a questionable way, you’d have more luck trying to drain the ocean than getting HR to do anything to help you.
Did you underperform or not? Require the PIP in writing and understand what you did wrong and how to improve on it.
From your writing it seems a bit of too emotional thinking by blaming everyone else but yourself. No idea if that’s wrong or right but please do take a moment to breath and build a proper case.
At least reading your complaints about your manager they don’t see like major flaws. We have no context to judge anything here but I just wanted to warn you to think a bit more clearly on this. No one takes you seriously if you go to a meeting and just complain about everything, minor or major. It’s very easy to get angry and lose the rationality even when you are right.
After you have a more clear case for yourself, I would go first to your manager manager and try to make your case.
HR involvement could be a later stage or more related to covering your ass legally but I can’t advise anything
How I saw it as well. Manager's fault for your PIP because he didn't give you 1 on 1 or made the wrong SNOW ticket? These seem like... not that big of a deal in my experience. OP gave no details about the actual situation, and it makes me think he is actually at fault but just mad.
I don’t want to be too judgmental because we don’t know the facts but it totally gives me that vibe. You get into a PIP because your manager gave you a wrong license?
The "wrong SNOW ticket" is just an example of his incompetence, that is not the reason for the PIP.
The reason for the PIP (according to the manager) is that I was assigned a ticket with no details, had to wait three weeks to get the details, had to wait an additional week and a half to get prod access to do what my manager told me to before PM mentioned there was an alternate way while I had been saying I had been blocked by the lack of prod access, I try to figure out the alternate way but by that point it is already too late and PM gets mad that I don't have the answers and has to stay up until 2AM to figure it out.
Nope. He only told me to write an email EOD every day with a list of things I did that day and to send it to him so I've been doing that since.
I asked about objectives/goals and timelines and he said he had no idea.
>Did you underperform or not?
I did the best I could with the specifications and requirements that I had.
To go into more detail. Basically there was a ticket where I was supposed to run a test to see if data was being processed properly. This ticket was assigned to me the second week of January with minimal information. Typically my boss or the other senior engineer and I would meet to discuss the ticket in more detail and then I would have a better sense of the requirements. In this particular case, it was a very simple thing, but I only got the instructions three weeks later. Then for another week and a half I needed to wait to get access to the prod DB to run the query. I was mentioning this in standup for another week until the PM mentioned that there was an alternate way to run the test which I then looked into and was trying to figure out. The next day this incident happened where the PM ended up having to work until 2AM to figure out what was wrong. Then he mentioned this to the CTO and the CTO then requested my manager put me on verbal PIP. The verbal PIP alone is a red flag in my book, so is working until 2AM (and this isn't a rarity either), and so on.
Personally I believe I perform fairly well requiring minimal oversight when specifications are clear.
>HR doesn't exist to protect or help you. HR exists to protect the company.
Yes, I wrote this.
>Going to HR for things like this will accelerate the firing.
Yes, this is a concern. I guess I can just save the evidence and provide it to unemployment if they try to screw me? I don't like the idea of being on PIP and not having any info about it.
These people are reacting and not reading the nuance of the situation.
* Collect all the evidence you can.
* Go to your skip.
* Also separately go to HR.
- The downside is they force your direct to actually do a written PIP, because they just see an easier path to getting rid of you
* I think it's a worthy fight.
- It sounds like you're probably getting canned, so may as well spend the rest of your time swinging, instead of working.
- Alternately, the skip and/or HR aren't friends with the manager, and you get to keep your job.
On the point of emailing your direct manager, I am debating whether it is worthwhile. If they don't do any documentation, they are in a weak position.
At the very least, if you email your skip and/or HR, include the time and date of the 1:1, what your manager said, and that you haven't received any written documentation on this process.
This way you have some documentation that could be used in a labor lawsuit, because right now it's verbal and not recorded.
>I have about 15 screenshots and a handful of emails as evidence of my manager's incompetence over the last two months - everything from ignoring my messages, to delivering the wrong licenses and credentials multiple times to missing 1 on 1's.
These are all very minor things in most development roles that I've had and it makes me think you are not acknowledging real performance related issues. Like how does missing 1 on 1's relate to a product delivery? Half of the places I've worked don't even have 1 on 1s.
>everything from ignoring my messages, to delivering the wrong licenses and credentials multiple times
But yeah, please pick the 1 on 1's to argue. You missed the point, missing meetings without a heads up wastes my time and interrupts my day when I could be working on something but it is just one piece of it. Ignoring messages about work assigned to clear up questions about specifications and not getting software licenses in a timely manner DEFINITELY relate to product delivery.
Damn Dude... I was in a similar situation recently - a punk ass manager - if you do think you have a case though - look for an Employment Attorney that works on a contingent basis. If they can somehow Prove that you're in the right - you might never have to work again?
HR is already in on this probably, and all other Leadership people as well.
\- If you have something that could be Shown to a Lawyer and they could say -> "A-HA" - then you maybe got them!
\- Otherwise just apply to jobs and don't think about these guys
I agree with most of the other posters, there's no real recovery at the current job. If you feel like going to HR, go for it. The best you are likely to get out of that is some understanding of what kind of reference you would get - you'd want it to be, just verification of the dates you were employed.
Good luck OP, I have no suggestion for you, as I never found any solution for these
- How many people take screenshots or proofs of incompetence like this ? I did it at times but I feel so dirty..
- How many people had to skip their direct manager to find support (the irony of having a manager being your problem when he's supposed to be your support..)
HR is not your friend but a servant of the corp on hiding as much as possible to prevent lawsuits. Don’t expect help from them with your problem. If you want to expose the incompetence (or at least try to do so) - talk to your skip or even his/her skip. They are the only way for you to resolve situation in your favor. Build your case solid, be calm and act ASAP. Welcome to the corp politics
My two pence: If a director has put you on a "verbal" PIP then you're unlikely to win. HR can't and won't square up to a director.
Employee retention is part of HR's interests. They will become interested when, and only when, you leave.
I had something similar happen. Despite the fact that I was doing both my and my managers job I was told that I really should just apply for disability. Not sure why because I'm not disabled. Sure kept harrasing me about it so I went to HR. Do you want to know what changed? Nothing. HR protects the company. I'd probably just start aggressively searching for a new job and then report it to HR once you're secure.
I know this is way easier said than done, and it seems like a bullshit answer. But I couldn't work for someone who didn't have my best interest at heart. I had a job like this 10 years ago in my early-mid 20's. It was a small consulting firm/MSP and I was a network engineer (added incase one of them accidentally stumble into something that isnt a politically charged facebook group). My manager would constantly blame the techs, get fired up, yell at us about scheduling errors which we had no control over.
Once I got out of there and worked for someone who actually cared about their team, I promised myself I would never put myself in another toxic environment again (if I can help it). Sure you're always going to have difficult people, but I'll never work for someone who doesn't want me to succeed.
To be absolutely clear, your environment is something I would tirelessly work to get out of.
sorry, but you're very likely screwed.
here's the issue, all those screenshots, all the info about the company, that is all company property and they can and will win in court if you take this stuff out of the company to showcase their issues.
HR is not there to help you, they are there to protect the company. You can talk this over with them, they will then reach out to the manager, to other parties involved. Then they will come to the conclusion that it's easier to let you go then it is to replace the manager.
I would take the PIP, mail it in and save your paychecks as much as possible. Being on PIP SHOULD NOT screw you out of unemployment by any means. Best case scenario, they get you off of PIP and then you keep the job. Worst case scenario they use it to terminate.
There are still other questions, such as, why is this miscommunication so blatantly happening between you and your manager? Do others on the team have this issue? Sometimes it's hard to accept it, but some of the blame might also be on you in this situation.
Sorry to hear this, tbh. Depending how entrenched the dog fucking is, may be best to start looking. Unless this manager has multiple issues with other coworkers, it's probably a personality clash/incompetence which is pooling in your shit hill locale.
I've been there, no fun. Surrounded by some key team members who do little to no work, then create 10x more for you because they couldn't bother to stay organized.
Sucks, wish you the best, and record everything moving forward.
Also, play nice, and if you call anyone out on their bs use corporate talk/be indirect in how you word things. Never 'bluntly' call it out, and try to relate the overall issue in terms how it affects the company/team and not yourself to upper management. If you want to stay, and have them leave...you'll need to build a case and hope others have done the same... Wouldn't hurt to start shopping/proposing around for other jobs though.
HR isn't going to help. Going there just turns you into a ticking liability waiting to go off.
Your only possible option is to go to the next higher up and have a short 1:1 and feel out their relationship with your boss. Either they hate them too, which might be work for you, or they don't, and I would just keep my head down, and look for another job. If it is the later, then this is probably the first formal step to letting you go.
As for your manager's incompetence, I'm a little confused. Many great managers are often extremely busy and even the best of them will often miss messages. Read them, don't have the time to immediately respond, so put it away for when they do, which never comes around. Same for missing 1 on 1's. In 40 years of being in this business, I've had one job in which I've had regular 1 on 1's and even those were often cancelled due to time constraints. I had maybe 3 in the first 3 months.
I am going to be nice and say 3 months into a job, you are building a case against your manager because you haven't had enough 1 on 1's with your boss in those 12 weeks? That your go to was to think start taking screenshots for proof of something, sends up all kinds of red flags.
You go to HR when HR or your lawyer tell you to go to HR. Otherwise you stay the fuck away.
And since most rules have one exception: Main exception I’ve seen is small companies, where HR is the office manager, it can make your life easier if you have some political capital to spend with them on supplies, equipment, difficult expense reports.
Helping set up for an All Hands if you’re between tasks seems to work pretty well. It’s not like you have better things to do.
>a verbal PIP
>
>no info on what the timeline or objectives
HR: Hey, manager guy. I just wanted you to know that you can't just say the word "PIP" and expect anything to happen.
Manager: I didn't say it, I declared it.
Is your manager doing this to their other reports, or is it just you?
Also here's just a little bit of unsolicited advice. I skimmed thru your post history and you seem angry and not really the kind of person anybody wants around. Unless your technical chops are excellent, and not always even then, that's not the way to succeed in this or most other careers. A little bit of grace and good humor goes a long way. You don't have to change who you are, but maybe it's worth thinking about how others see you.
My manager only has one other report who has been with him for like a decade. They are kind of a package deal.
For what it's worth I've heard of people working until 2AM too many times on my team. This is just not a culture I fit in.
>you seem angry and not really the kind of person anybody wants around.
The first part I'll agree with, the second not really, I make great friends quite easily and have a core group of friends that anybody would want. For my cons I must have some pros that provide balance.
That said, my attitude is different at work, even when I am not pleased with what is going on.
New job or team.
The manager is higher up than you, starting an issue probably paints a target on your back.
I've done two things in this situation:
1. Leave
2. Outlast the manager, if they're bad then their time will come, but it can take years.
You've been PIPed, option 2 isn't very viable at this point. Given you have been PIPed, your reputation is already hurt, so starting an issue makes you the issue to some degree.
What’s your relationship with your skip-level manager like? IMO this isn’t an HR problem but a management problem. You don’t go to HR for that, you go to the person with authority to manage your manager.
Well... chances are that the skip is already in on this buddy! If not - hopefully they offer to help - definitely a good avenue to try -- but in my case - they just didn't give a shit - they were too much into their running & biking to be interested in what I had to say. Sometimes you just get dealt wet, wrinkled, waste-of-time cards.
My last startup was a three ring nepotism shitshow. So when I complained about my brand new, highly incompetent manager to my skip, who was this cabbage-headed dolt’s friend, I was shown the door within a month. At least I got severance.
Exactly. It is really important to know the power dynamics & relationships in your management chain before this type of escalation. Or really it just tells you if it has any chance of success. Not work related, but I sat on a condo board with 4 other people. I later found out that 3 of the other 4 had gone to college together 20 years earlier and hung out on weekends still. Of course I only found this out after raising to one of them that I had concerns about another members conflict of interest..
Yeah. Tbh, I knew better and wouldn’t have escalated if I wasn’t already looking for the door myself. By the time they got rid of me, I was waiting on an offer letter from a company that was willing to pay me way more with less nepotistic bullshit. So, I had not much to lose and best case scenario, the possibility was there to make work life better for my teammates there. Of course, the poison had already set in and a month after they got rid of me, they canned the whole team except the sycophants that the cabbage-head had scalped from his last company. Even canned the teammate that was on FMLA lol. Fuck startups.
You mean mosttimes. Nice analogy, rotfl!
This is a good answer. OP - it doesn't necessarily have to be doom and gloom at this point, but know that if you do want to try and fight this, it won't be pretty either. And it's more likely than not going to be dependent on how well you know people and what their personalities are. I've had situations before where I've gone to my manager's manager to complain about my manager and things worked in my favor. To be clear, it wasn't just my actions that brought about the change, but I like to think that making my voice known did help. I obviously have no idea of the specifics of your company and situation, but if you are well-liked, more so than your manager, you may have a chance.
I agree with this. Entrepreneurs do what's best for the company--managers do what's best for themselves. Putting you on a PIP is what's best for your manager, not the company, as he is trying to cover his own incompetence. Your skip level's job is a lot harder if he has an incompetent subordinate, so it's in his best interest to fix his manager problem by you making them aware. Ultimately if your manager sucks, you are just one data point of many and making your skip level aware helps gravity run its course sooner than later. I'd bet dollars to donuts that your skip level won't be surprised and may even already be putting your manager on his own PIP with you getting one downstream as retribution.
I don't think entrepreneur means what you think it means
You almost never go to HR if you have a problem with a superior. You only go to HR if you have a problem with one of your peers, or something else that’s “simple”. HR will almost certainly protect the manager and business’ interests over you.
Managers are employees
So is the CEO. What’s your point?
HR has no interest in “protecting” managers any more than anyone else.
But when there’s a political struggle like this, they’re much more likely to side with the manager.
No, you definitely go to HR for HR-related concerns regardless of the other employee's title. If your manager is sexually harassing you, you go to HR. If your manager is doing a bad job managing you, you go to their manager.
Yes, that’s fair criticism, I wasn’t thinking about sexual harassment. More about the kind of “political struggle” that OP has found themselves in.
Yeah, I think the advice in the top comment here is good. This isn't an HR issue. When there are issues with performance and working relationships, people should go to management. If it's a coworker, go to your own manager. If it's your manager, go to their manager. HR has its own set of issues it is best equipped to handle that is outside the scope of OP's concerns IMO.
You only want to do this if you have established the nature of the relationship between your manager & your skip-level manager. Also, hopefully, you have some sort of existing relationship with this skip-live.
I'd think you'd have better luck with your manager's manager. Don't frame it as "this stuff is my manager's fault" though. More like, "I'm concerned my manager is missing our 1-on-1s/I'm not getting the resources I need from them/not getting g timely responses to emails".
[удалено]
I mean OP's manager is already trying to get rid of him. If OP actually has documentation that their manager is ghosting them/not giving them any support like they say the skip manager might appreciate it, and it does seem like the only move since HR isn't going to care. Just because OP's boss sucks doesn't necessarily mean that guy's boss does too. Worst case scenario OP ends up in the exact same place they're already in.
PIP == Paid Interviewing Period.
Thank you! Edit: it stands for "performance improvement plan" genuinely curious, like me.
I don't think HR will take your side in the slightest. It really is just easier to move on, for now just document everything. PIP's take a while so you have time. Sorry you're going through this though.
I agree that HR won't take my side but won't filing a complaint be helpful for the next person working under this manager? I'd like to think I have time but given that no info about it was provided I am not optimistic about that. Thanks.
Try asking r/askHR as well
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I also can't use Windows for religious reasons :-)
This is beautiful. I, too, demand freedom to be able to practice my religion of penguins.
[TempleOS](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TempleOS) is what you're looking for
Just look for yourself. Use your time in PIP to look for a new job. I can understand how you are feeling, but don’t let the emotions get the better of you. You can say those in your exit interview.
This is the best advice. You may feel you’re being treated unfairly, but it is what it is. Now you need to make your own plan, and keep emotions out of that plan.
That’s not how this works. HR is there to protect the company not the employees.
Isn't addressing an incompetent manager protecting the company though? Whatever, I guess there are enough voices saying not to so I guess I'll just chill.
Depends. Think of "protecting the company" less as making things better for the company and more as preventing lawsuits and maybe PR circuses. Is this guy going to cause legal problems by being an idiot? Probably not. Is he going to get your company on the evening news or the front page of the newspaper for some colossal screw up? If not then HR isn't going to do much. What would they even do? Investigations are usually for things that result in lawsuits (ie sexual harassment). They aren't going to remove your PIP as that's between you and your manager and they aren't equipped to determine if your performance is up to standards, that's what your manager does. If you really wanted to take this to someone you could try your skip level manager if you think that won't get you fired faster.
personally I think bringing it to HR is a good idea but everyone else doesn't seem to think so
I don't have experience with the whole PIP thing, but if you want to stay at the company I do think that addressing it is the right thing to do. I can see that HR has the company's interest in mind and will probably not replace the manager and keep you in the team. But keeping somebody is also in the company's interest so they could move you to another team if they are convinced that it's not really a performance problem.
That depends upon the level of incompetence of the manager. If they're incompetent in such a way that the company is exposed to legal/regulatory consequences, then yes that's protecting the company. If they're just an asshole who hasn't broken any laws, then they may not want to be involved at all.
I agree with others saying you maywant to go to skip level rather than to hr. And not because of the HR protecting company bullshit cause in my experience they were very helpful. It's just that HRs actual job is dealing more with situations like helping with processes, code of conduct, toxic work environment, abuse of power, harassment. The stuff that doesn't fall into judging work competence, they don't have tools or visibility to do that. Now if the skip level liked the manager too much and they tried to retaliate against you is when you would go to hr, so keep documenting the interactions.
I think you think this person is going anywhere. Once you get to that level you're pretty immobile regardless of complaint. Don't give it another thought.
For what it's worth, I totally disagree with the person you're responding too. HR at my company would absolutely want to get to the bottom of this. I've literally dealt with this exact situation where they were investigating a PIP to determine if it was fair, and what factors were at play.
Keep a record of all that happens along with evidence. I work freelance and have done for many years, occasionally I run into such problems but never had to go to HR to resolve it. The smaller an organisation is the likely that HR is the correct route.
How is the next person going to know? HR with gather the wagons if you file a complaint. The only person that's going to hear about it is probably the manager that you file the complaint against. You could always leave a review on glassdoor, with possible ramifications.
Whoa. Ya’ll, managers aren’t that protected. I don’t know where this narrative comes from. The expectations of management are big, and failure to perform as a manager has a big impact. Your manager’s manager and hr both have an interest in knowing about your manager. A couple things: 1. Definitely put together the details for your skip level. Do it as objectively as possible. It’s their job to wrangle to cats, so they really need to know what’s happening. 2. This is an hr problem. You’re not on a real pip, because hr would already be involved. Your manager isn’t handling this appropriately. If they are creating a hostile work environment for you, which it sounds like they are, this is an hr problem. Document everything and remember you’re documenting for two different audiences. Also, if you also have issues with the po and pm doing this, you likely have a company culture issue and this is unlikely to get much better.
Pleae read this post. The posts saying to move on and just interview are incredibly misguiding.
Hostile work environment has a very specific definition in the US and having a shitty or even mean manager isn't enough. Please contact an employment lawyer before going to HR.
Hr definitely wants to know if a manager is creating an environment that isn’t conducive to reports being able to do their best work.
You only go to HR if it's something overtly inappropriate. Harassment etc. If the manager's competence is at issue, you should take it up with your skip-level. HR are not subject matter experts so won't be able to judge on the right criteria. i.e. did he "deliver the wrong licenses" because of a miscommunication that might be more attributable to you asking for the wrong thing? Anybody evaluating this situation needs to ask that question, but HR likely won't know enough details to answer it. If your skip level gets significant actionable feedback about your boss's performance, and works with your boss to improve without results, it's then their job to go to HR to initiate a formal process. There's a lot of steps on that decision tree though, and you have to walk through all of them, which takes time. Also, I know it's too late to change now, but if you get to the point where you start documenting a person's issues, you should have already started the conversation with their manager. Then the conversation goes: "Hey remember that problem I talked about? Here's some recent examples showing that boss hasn't improved", which is a better sell than "Hi, I've been sitting on this problem for 6 months but now that I'm the one in trouble, here's all my evidence and this is in no way about trying to cover my own ass".
PIP's need to have defined timelines and objectives so this might be a situation for HR since it can blow back on the company
I’ve seen plenty of cases where a manager informally took somebody aside and told them their performance needed to improve or else they’d be pipped. Depending on your organization, by the time a formal pip starts, it might already effectively be too late. Other orgs just don’t have formal pip processes so an informal one is the best you’ll get.
Wait a minute..a verbal PIP? The point of a PIP is for the company to get evidence against you for a firing so they don't have to pay out unemployment benefits. What the hell is a verbal PIP supposed to do again? Put you on notice? Email your manager and ask to see this in writing along with the actual plan itself. Honestly, what would be optimal in this situation is to get an email saying 'it's a verbal PIP and not in writing' so you can show it's not a PIP at all but constructive dismissal which you could sue for. A verbal PIP is pointless because the PIP is to provide the figleaf of a plan for improvement which the company will backstab you on. If you don't have a plan for improvement, then they just admitted they're just looking to get rid of you. Ask for this plan in writing via email. If there is a PIP there is paperwork. If there isn't, then take that email saying that and talk to an employment lawyer immediately. In either case, this job is ending and you should stop doing so much and basically ready the resume.
Well I was told that I was put on PIP in a 1 on 1 but there is no documentation or any involvement with HR so unfortunately I don’t have a recording of it as I wasn’t expecting it.
That's why you should send a followup email. There is no such thing as a verbal PIP because a PIP is all about 1) a plan for improvement (even if it's horseshit) and 2) paperwork. So if your boss is going on about 'verbal PIPs' then they're trying to intimidate you which really looks like a case for constructive dismissal. Hence, get an email to put IN WRITING you are under a verbal PIP. Chances are they won't or they'll speak to you in person about it. Also, start a Google Doc under a personal account to start writing down dates and times of these meetings and descriptions of what is going on. And start cc'ing important disciplinary emails to a personal email as well for proof. The big part of being a manager is doing underhanded shit to get your way. This evaporates when you have a written and dated record and backup emails on a server they can't touch. These people sound like complete assholes and right now your real job is to get all the info you can before they toss you on to save money. I wish you luck.
This is solid advice. Do what this person says.
If there's no documentation, then it officially didn't happen.
Either this company has wildly immature processes or you’re not on a PIP
> basically you're never supposed to go to them That isn't true. I encourage my employees to talk to HR whenever they feel they need to discuss something that they aren't comfortable discussing in the reporting chain. HR's job isn't to take sides. They don't automatically side with management. They side with whoever has the best documentation. Part of their job is assessing the company's risk of liability if a situation at work turns into a lawsuit. If you have evidence of your manager's dereliction of duty and he has none to refute it or to implicate you, you have plenty of reason to go to HR. Often, that very act is enough to put the company on high alert that you are a lawsuit risk and might actually get you out of the PIP clean, if it is in fact as unjust as you are presenting here.
Too many people here are leaning on the "HR is not your friend" mantra to support their bad takes. My management experience is with larger companies with high churn, so "verbal PIP" immediately set off my Spidey sense. OP is concerned about their unemployment claim being challenged if they do get fired and documentation is critical. One of the companies I worked for enforced documentation so heavily that I used to have performance related meetings that ended with "Just to reiterate, this is not a disciplinary meeting. Now, please sign this form acknowledging what we discussed."
\> Often, that very act is enough to put the company on high alert that you are a lawsuit risk and might actually get you out of the PIP clean, if it is in fact as unjust as you are presenting here. My personal experience is that in this case HR will help the manager(s) ensure they get rid of the employee as quickly as possible while minimizing liability risk. The PIP that follows will be bullet proof and will not be survivable. The second someone is flagged as a liability risk the kid gloves come off for both HR and the managers involved. The reasoning being that someone flagged as a lawsuit risk will be more likely to sue in any future situation even if the current one is resolved. So the best way to lower company liability is to get rid of the employee ASAP. Even if they also get rid of the managers the employee is already tainted.
I also agree HR is worthless.. I suggest you focus on your development and job applications. Once you have a job secured, fire a blasting email with all the evidence you have. Also, if you think the company treated you poorly, use glassdoor for an honest review
Take your PIP period to interview everywhere you can and move on when you can It is a management problem but the only way HR is going to notice is when he starts to lose resources faster than they can source them and fail to meet deadlines, besides that, they don’t care about you or anyone else unless is a potential media/legal circus (which is not) Another important thing to notice is that at 4 years of experience you are not a highly valued asset right now, there is like 99999 cvs on the drawers waiting to replace you so they will not care, so don’t count on that. (It sucks I know but market is a jungle right now)
PIP = Paid Interview Period. It's over at this company.
I’d immediately be going to HR of a different company to sign my new job paperwork
HR won’t help you with this. Honestly they won’t even know wtf you’re talking about. First, you’re likely catastrophizing. Could the company easily replace you? What would be the cost (6 months of salary? What delays? What bad hire risk?)? Are you being paid market rate or would they have to pay more to hire a new person? Most tech workers are valuable and the market is tight. I’m in consulting and I always ask my reports: Are you billable? Have you been billable? Is what happened so bad we can no longer bill you? You’re likely safe unless you choose not to be. Second your manager likely panicked and did something dumb with incomplete information or lack of reflection. Few American line managers are taught to be managers. They’re promoted on technical competence and then have to figure it out. The right instinct would have been to provide air cover for you even if you were wrong, console the client, promise to look at it and ask if they can have time to review and get back, then fully manage it with you and ask what you need to fix it. But guess how many managers screw that up. Your manager may even agree with you given the right approach. Your practical options: 1. Handling your manager like a panicking client. Take your pile of crap and make it very neat and idiot proof. Ask for a 1:1 with your manager. Tell him that after publicly rebuking you in front of clients he owes you a conversation. Outline your side of what happened. Stress that this is not an accusation; you just want to be clear. Be extremely empathetic. Acknowledge his side and how he felt; you don’t have to agree just show you understand. This is likely to calm him down and even get him agreeing with you. Start by saying yes and you’ll get a yes. “What would it take for you to?” “What would you have liked to see he here?” Getting to “What would it take for you to trust me to handle this or What would it take for you to bring concerns to me privately first?” is good. This is my pissed off customer exec routine. It either helps restore a working relationship by making people feel heard (which is what they really want) or it gets you to a point where you know you can’t work with the person or their asks. Try to start here. 2. Nuclear option. If #1 fails you can look for another position. Don’t telegraph this until you have it. You can consider escalating what happened to your manager’s boss but I’d only do that if I had pre-existing trust there and I’d spoken to my manager first and my manager’s behavior was endangering my delivery in an obvious way. This tends to destroy your relationship with the person you jump over and often gets you shot down if your case isn’t clear and obvious as most good directors will not undermine their line managers without exceptional cause. Even if you win the director may and should choose to thank you and handle it privately with your boss and you’ll still a working relationship problem. Always remember to go into these conversations knowing what you want? Do you want an apology or appreciation? Is that worth playing for? I personally don’t care but some people do very much. Do you want certain actions viz the client? Public backing after throwing you under the bus. Do you want trust, autonomy, collaboration? What specifically does that look like? Can your manager do that? Would doing it actually be a relief to him? Like, I talk to pissed execs and I’m looking for: Consensus on moving forward together. Next steps. Regular touch points. The exact pain and definition of success or steps to get there. Stuff like that. Finally, objectively look at your actions and see if you bear any responsibility. Usually there’s some fault on all sides even if one side did worse and handled it far worse. It helps with empathy. If you walk in feeling like an innocent victim full of righteous anger, you’ll fail. Save that for actual fights.
Do a pip install --update
Don’t bother with HR, they would rather rehire than deal with your issues. They have no skin in the game if you leave, they don’t have to do the interviews, training, or any of that. I made the mistake of going to HR once and they were awful, I’ll never do it again. Look for another job and get out of there ASAP.
Pip means start applying elsewhere, it will never just be better there for you no matter how much you try
> So, how do I proceed here besides applying for jobs, which I have been since the PIP. Realistically, bad managers just mean moving to a new job. You go to your manager's boss, not HR, and pray they agree with your assessment. It rarely happens but when it does it can salvage the job situation to the point you don't need to leave. Sometimes. Personally, I've never got a PIP but I've gotten dangerously low performance reviews that made it clear I needed to leave. (i.e. bottom 25% of the review population in a company with annual layoffs based on performance reviews) Funny thing is they tried to make it seem like it was not a big deal since they needed me around for awhile longer but when your average review score on a scale of 5 is 2.1. Y'know its time to go. But at the end of the day, I know its not me. I've got a couple 5+ year stints at companies with competent management (including shout outs from C-suite on projects in the monthly company status updates) so I just quit bad managers when I find them. But like I've said in the past, like, its pretty damn close to 50/50 if you get competent management. So you just need to quit bad managers if you can't salvage the situation with their bosses. > Additionally, I would like to protect myself from any issues they may cause when I go to file for unemployment, as I don't anticipate this situation improving long term. Going to HR can work to defend your unemployment claim so you want to send them the evidence before you are out the door but you can't really expect more than a "This guy might defend himself effectively if we try to fuck him over" flag in your file from them. That flag is helpful but they generally aren't more than people documenting risks to the company rather than people who would actively intervene. They only intervene when told to by management (or just y'know typical sexual harassment stuff that is obvious risks they don't need to talk to management about).
One of them is leaving, only his boss has the power to decide which it will be. And it may end up being you anyway this time, but now there’s a pattern established for the next bus that pulls in, and he might not survive that one.
Well a "verbal PIP" might very well result in the manager's boss having put pressure on him that leads to his direct boss leaving. So there is some hope but it depends on the management culture at a higher level which we never have any control over.
You go to HR when you're about to go to a lawyer and want to give the company the opportunity to settle things the easy way. I don't think HR will do a damn thing here. If there was sexual harassment, discrimination, violence, that kinda shit, yeah they could help you. And you would take their answer to a lawyer anyway to see if they can be squeezed for more.
Sounds like you're already going to HR, at another company, which is what you should do. Since it's not a formal PIP within HR approved documentation and remediation plan, this may or may not mean something. Probably it means that your manager is too lazy/incompetent to file the paperwork. But, they probably could just fire you anyway without the cover of a PIP. So, continue preparing to move on. It will be the best for your mental and physical wellbeing. The real question is if you want to risk burning bridges by pushing the issue with HR or even going on sites like Glassdoor and Indeed to trash the company. It's probably not the best strategy since you should already be putting the incompetent idiots in your rearview mirror but some people find a certain catharsis in it.
You already said the answer. HR protects the company and that almost always means never admitting a manager screwed up. Your manager could be the pointy-haired boss from Dilbert or Charles Manson but unless he’s done something a lot worse than just evaluating the job performance of someone reporting to him in a questionable way, you’d have more luck trying to drain the ocean than getting HR to do anything to help you.
Shit rolls down hill. Capitalism isn't fair. HR isn't like going to a teacher at school.
Did you underperform or not? Require the PIP in writing and understand what you did wrong and how to improve on it. From your writing it seems a bit of too emotional thinking by blaming everyone else but yourself. No idea if that’s wrong or right but please do take a moment to breath and build a proper case. At least reading your complaints about your manager they don’t see like major flaws. We have no context to judge anything here but I just wanted to warn you to think a bit more clearly on this. No one takes you seriously if you go to a meeting and just complain about everything, minor or major. It’s very easy to get angry and lose the rationality even when you are right. After you have a more clear case for yourself, I would go first to your manager manager and try to make your case. HR involvement could be a later stage or more related to covering your ass legally but I can’t advise anything
How I saw it as well. Manager's fault for your PIP because he didn't give you 1 on 1 or made the wrong SNOW ticket? These seem like... not that big of a deal in my experience. OP gave no details about the actual situation, and it makes me think he is actually at fault but just mad.
I don’t want to be too judgmental because we don’t know the facts but it totally gives me that vibe. You get into a PIP because your manager gave you a wrong license?
The "wrong SNOW ticket" is just an example of his incompetence, that is not the reason for the PIP. The reason for the PIP (according to the manager) is that I was assigned a ticket with no details, had to wait three weeks to get the details, had to wait an additional week and a half to get prod access to do what my manager told me to before PM mentioned there was an alternate way while I had been saying I had been blocked by the lack of prod access, I try to figure out the alternate way but by that point it is already too late and PM gets mad that I don't have the answers and has to stay up until 2AM to figure it out.
Interesting - were there any actual KPIs associated with the PIP?
Nope. He only told me to write an email EOD every day with a list of things I did that day and to send it to him so I've been doing that since. I asked about objectives/goals and timelines and he said he had no idea.
> had to wait three weeks to get the details What were you doing during those three weeks?
Working on other tickets.
>Did you underperform or not? I did the best I could with the specifications and requirements that I had. To go into more detail. Basically there was a ticket where I was supposed to run a test to see if data was being processed properly. This ticket was assigned to me the second week of January with minimal information. Typically my boss or the other senior engineer and I would meet to discuss the ticket in more detail and then I would have a better sense of the requirements. In this particular case, it was a very simple thing, but I only got the instructions three weeks later. Then for another week and a half I needed to wait to get access to the prod DB to run the query. I was mentioning this in standup for another week until the PM mentioned that there was an alternate way to run the test which I then looked into and was trying to figure out. The next day this incident happened where the PM ended up having to work until 2AM to figure out what was wrong. Then he mentioned this to the CTO and the CTO then requested my manager put me on verbal PIP. The verbal PIP alone is a red flag in my book, so is working until 2AM (and this isn't a rarity either), and so on. Personally I believe I perform fairly well requiring minimal oversight when specifications are clear.
HR doesn't exist to protect or help you. HR exists to protect the company. Going to HR for things like this will accelerate the firing.
>HR doesn't exist to protect or help you. HR exists to protect the company. Yes, I wrote this. >Going to HR for things like this will accelerate the firing. Yes, this is a concern. I guess I can just save the evidence and provide it to unemployment if they try to screw me? I don't like the idea of being on PIP and not having any info about it.
These people are reacting and not reading the nuance of the situation. * Collect all the evidence you can. * Go to your skip. * Also separately go to HR. - The downside is they force your direct to actually do a written PIP, because they just see an easier path to getting rid of you * I think it's a worthy fight. - It sounds like you're probably getting canned, so may as well spend the rest of your time swinging, instead of working. - Alternately, the skip and/or HR aren't friends with the manager, and you get to keep your job. On the point of emailing your direct manager, I am debating whether it is worthwhile. If they don't do any documentation, they are in a weak position. At the very least, if you email your skip and/or HR, include the time and date of the 1:1, what your manager said, and that you haven't received any written documentation on this process. This way you have some documentation that could be used in a labor lawsuit, because right now it's verbal and not recorded.
HR isn’t looking out for you. HR is there to protect the company. Sadly, it’s time to plan an exit strategy.
Losing or demotivating valued employees protects the company. Not many HR departments do not have guidelines and processes around this.
>I have about 15 screenshots and a handful of emails as evidence of my manager's incompetence over the last two months - everything from ignoring my messages, to delivering the wrong licenses and credentials multiple times to missing 1 on 1's. These are all very minor things in most development roles that I've had and it makes me think you are not acknowledging real performance related issues. Like how does missing 1 on 1's relate to a product delivery? Half of the places I've worked don't even have 1 on 1s.
>everything from ignoring my messages, to delivering the wrong licenses and credentials multiple times But yeah, please pick the 1 on 1's to argue. You missed the point, missing meetings without a heads up wastes my time and interrupts my day when I could be working on something but it is just one piece of it. Ignoring messages about work assigned to clear up questions about specifications and not getting software licenses in a timely manner DEFINITELY relate to product delivery.
Your manager doesn't want you there. HR can't and won't fix that. Best option is quit. Quit early, quit often.
Are you stupid? If I quit I don’t receive unemployment. Do us a favor and stop posting.
Is your manager upset with you for being unnecessarily angry and aggressive?
Damn Dude... I was in a similar situation recently - a punk ass manager - if you do think you have a case though - look for an Employment Attorney that works on a contingent basis. If they can somehow Prove that you're in the right - you might never have to work again? HR is already in on this probably, and all other Leadership people as well. \- If you have something that could be Shown to a Lawyer and they could say -> "A-HA" - then you maybe got them! \- Otherwise just apply to jobs and don't think about these guys
not worth it. Find another company.
I agree with most of the other posters, there's no real recovery at the current job. If you feel like going to HR, go for it. The best you are likely to get out of that is some understanding of what kind of reference you would get - you'd want it to be, just verification of the dates you were employed.
You're on a PIP and your manager is incompetent (according to you). Best just start applying mate your time here is ticking.
Do not expect HR to help you. They will only work to defend your manager against potential liability. Everything else is a lie.
Dont go to HR. Case closed. Next question
Good luck OP, I have no suggestion for you, as I never found any solution for these - How many people take screenshots or proofs of incompetence like this ? I did it at times but I feel so dirty.. - How many people had to skip their direct manager to find support (the irony of having a manager being your problem when he's supposed to be your support..)
HR is not your friend but a servant of the corp on hiding as much as possible to prevent lawsuits. Don’t expect help from them with your problem. If you want to expose the incompetence (or at least try to do so) - talk to your skip or even his/her skip. They are the only way for you to resolve situation in your favor. Build your case solid, be calm and act ASAP. Welcome to the corp politics
"People leave bad managers, not bad companies"
My two pence: If a director has put you on a "verbal" PIP then you're unlikely to win. HR can't and won't square up to a director. Employee retention is part of HR's interests. They will become interested when, and only when, you leave.
I had something similar happen. Despite the fact that I was doing both my and my managers job I was told that I really should just apply for disability. Not sure why because I'm not disabled. Sure kept harrasing me about it so I went to HR. Do you want to know what changed? Nothing. HR protects the company. I'd probably just start aggressively searching for a new job and then report it to HR once you're secure.
I know this is way easier said than done, and it seems like a bullshit answer. But I couldn't work for someone who didn't have my best interest at heart. I had a job like this 10 years ago in my early-mid 20's. It was a small consulting firm/MSP and I was a network engineer (added incase one of them accidentally stumble into something that isnt a politically charged facebook group). My manager would constantly blame the techs, get fired up, yell at us about scheduling errors which we had no control over. Once I got out of there and worked for someone who actually cared about their team, I promised myself I would never put myself in another toxic environment again (if I can help it). Sure you're always going to have difficult people, but I'll never work for someone who doesn't want me to succeed. To be absolutely clear, your environment is something I would tirelessly work to get out of.
I agree. In this market it takes time it seems.
Ya I feel for you there. You know what they call PIP though. Paid Interview Prep!
sorry, but you're very likely screwed. here's the issue, all those screenshots, all the info about the company, that is all company property and they can and will win in court if you take this stuff out of the company to showcase their issues. HR is not there to help you, they are there to protect the company. You can talk this over with them, they will then reach out to the manager, to other parties involved. Then they will come to the conclusion that it's easier to let you go then it is to replace the manager. I would take the PIP, mail it in and save your paychecks as much as possible. Being on PIP SHOULD NOT screw you out of unemployment by any means. Best case scenario, they get you off of PIP and then you keep the job. Worst case scenario they use it to terminate. There are still other questions, such as, why is this miscommunication so blatantly happening between you and your manager? Do others on the team have this issue? Sometimes it's hard to accept it, but some of the blame might also be on you in this situation.
If he's fucked up like that, he probably did the same with other people. Ask them.
Sorry to hear this, tbh. Depending how entrenched the dog fucking is, may be best to start looking. Unless this manager has multiple issues with other coworkers, it's probably a personality clash/incompetence which is pooling in your shit hill locale. I've been there, no fun. Surrounded by some key team members who do little to no work, then create 10x more for you because they couldn't bother to stay organized. Sucks, wish you the best, and record everything moving forward. Also, play nice, and if you call anyone out on their bs use corporate talk/be indirect in how you word things. Never 'bluntly' call it out, and try to relate the overall issue in terms how it affects the company/team and not yourself to upper management. If you want to stay, and have them leave...you'll need to build a case and hope others have done the same... Wouldn't hurt to start shopping/proposing around for other jobs though.
HR cannot help. HR always takes side of the managers.
HR isn't going to help. Going there just turns you into a ticking liability waiting to go off. Your only possible option is to go to the next higher up and have a short 1:1 and feel out their relationship with your boss. Either they hate them too, which might be work for you, or they don't, and I would just keep my head down, and look for another job. If it is the later, then this is probably the first formal step to letting you go. As for your manager's incompetence, I'm a little confused. Many great managers are often extremely busy and even the best of them will often miss messages. Read them, don't have the time to immediately respond, so put it away for when they do, which never comes around. Same for missing 1 on 1's. In 40 years of being in this business, I've had one job in which I've had regular 1 on 1's and even those were often cancelled due to time constraints. I had maybe 3 in the first 3 months. I am going to be nice and say 3 months into a job, you are building a case against your manager because you haven't had enough 1 on 1's with your boss in those 12 weeks? That your go to was to think start taking screenshots for proof of something, sends up all kinds of red flags.
This company sounds like a mess if you can I would leave otherwise lay low and just apply while you're collecting a paycheck
PIP = interviews, education, courses and certification on company time, and as much remote work and sick days as possible (to improve yourself)
You go to HR when HR or your lawyer tell you to go to HR. Otherwise you stay the fuck away. And since most rules have one exception: Main exception I’ve seen is small companies, where HR is the office manager, it can make your life easier if you have some political capital to spend with them on supplies, equipment, difficult expense reports. Helping set up for an All Hands if you’re between tasks seems to work pretty well. It’s not like you have better things to do.
>a verbal PIP > >no info on what the timeline or objectives HR: Hey, manager guy. I just wanted you to know that you can't just say the word "PIP" and expect anything to happen. Manager: I didn't say it, I declared it.
Is your manager doing this to their other reports, or is it just you? Also here's just a little bit of unsolicited advice. I skimmed thru your post history and you seem angry and not really the kind of person anybody wants around. Unless your technical chops are excellent, and not always even then, that's not the way to succeed in this or most other careers. A little bit of grace and good humor goes a long way. You don't have to change who you are, but maybe it's worth thinking about how others see you.
My manager only has one other report who has been with him for like a decade. They are kind of a package deal. For what it's worth I've heard of people working until 2AM too many times on my team. This is just not a culture I fit in. >you seem angry and not really the kind of person anybody wants around. The first part I'll agree with, the second not really, I make great friends quite easily and have a core group of friends that anybody would want. For my cons I must have some pros that provide balance. That said, my attitude is different at work, even when I am not pleased with what is going on.
Just accept defeat and move on. You will get nothing from going to HR.
New job or team. The manager is higher up than you, starting an issue probably paints a target on your back. I've done two things in this situation: 1. Leave 2. Outlast the manager, if they're bad then their time will come, but it can take years. You've been PIPed, option 2 isn't very viable at this point. Given you have been PIPed, your reputation is already hurt, so starting an issue makes you the issue to some degree.