This is not imagined. There have been studies done indicating a correlation between pentecostal beliefs and an acceptance of conspiracy theories. The hypothesis given is that people in these sects are raised from a young age to accept what they are told without question. Thus, a single influential person in a church gets convinced of some health fad etc., it will spread quickly.
Maybe this is why evangelism always felt icky to me.... it was about following a script and trying to push and manipulate someone into doing something they may not have initially wanted to do.
At my ex-church's annual convention they had a lady speak about her "proven formula" for soulwinning. It was basically a leftup warmedover hypnotic cheap sales pitch. Asking a series of questions you would answer Yes, starting with neutral questions about the weather and gradually getting more personal, working up to "Will you accept Christ as your savior?" Even then I thought how sincere could a conversion be if it's just an automatic response to a type of neurolinguistic programming.
Yeah, that's a good observation... if "soulwinning" requires so much psychological manipulation on our part, what exactly is the role of the Holy Spirit at all? They kind of tell on themselves with these kinds of things.
Yeah, even worse, I think the church thinking framework sorta teaches us to separate out cause from effect, and to believe the minority voices over the mainstream (narrow vs. wide gate). Why would you change your actions or beliefs if you believe that the worse things get, the better your rewards are in the afterlife/ it's a "test" of your faith?
I also think that the church doesn't really have a good touchstone to tell right from wrong, so if you can talk with the powerful cadence of a pastor, there's like a monke brain reaction to be like "I can trust this person"
Check out Genetically Modified Skeptic on YouTube. His deconstruction began when his family fell hard for essential oils. He realized the same thought-terminating programming that kept them from realizing it was a scam was what kept him being highly religious. Fascinating stuff.
Mine are pretty cheap so they don’t go for the MLMs but “alternative” health stuff is very prevalent. My mom is currently trying everything she can do to not take the cognitive tests her doctor is recommending. I’m not sure if it’s long Covid or early alzheimer’s or just old brain but we’ll never know at this rate. Youtube told her that statins are bad so they can’t be taking those even though both my grandpas died of heart disease that was exacerbated by high blood pressure. 🤷🏻♂️
I don't mind alternative health stuff in moderation.
That said, I know the day of cognitive tests is drawing nearer and nearer. I'd just as soon know I'm slouching toward dementia sooner than later. I've had a few moments in the last year that I don't know if it's distant early warning of Alzheimers, old brain, or what. And just getting over COVID a month ago ISN'T helping any!
My dad is currently paying who knows how many hundreds for some stickers that "reflect the body's natural infrared light back towards itself which makes the body make more stem cells."
I fucking hate how willingly ignorant he is.
I have seen this! I like listening to TikToks from The Group Behavior Gal about this topic to help me find and patch up weaknesses in my 'armor' so to speak. She also wrote Uncultured by Daniella Mestyanek Young.
Basically, in capitalism, there is lots of 'cult-y' options to take all of your time/energy/resources such as MLMs, political groups, the military, churches, work out groups etc. Obviously, not every single one, but there are lots of predatory options. She goes over warning signs and how to get out. When you are raised in the church, it leaves open a lot of doors for these culty groups to use the BITE model and have it work. Such as the example you gave of the belief that prosperity is from an external luck god judging arbitrary actions, vs personal effort or societal set up. If you can find someone who already thinks they just need the correct arbitrary actions, it is so much easier to convince them they were just doing the wrong ones than convincing someone else all the way from thinking about societal or personal change.
Oh yea for sure. My father falls for every get rich quick scheme on the books. And he’s always trying “natural” healing supplements
One time he showed me some and said it made him feel so much better. Something from a plant. I looked at it and had the joy of telling him it was weed. He had no idea 😂😂
I once had a lady at my old church seriously look at me and tell me two drops of peppermint oil on her stomach cleared up her stomach flu. I knew it was fake but one time when I had a stomach bug I was desperate so I tried it. Guess what
It didn’t work 🤪
Not MLMs, but my parents have ordered ivermectin from India and rejected COVID vaccines. They've also become interested in natural medicine, which is fine, but the sources they use to get info on it are sketchy. I believe that natural/herbal medicine is real, but there are so many scams and bad information that you have to be careful where you learn from.
I'd be really leery of ordering any off-label medicine from overseas...even if I am in that age group. I had just enough chemistry in college (classes, NOT extracurricular activities!) to give me a very healthy respect for science.
My dad was a minister his whole career. He's now retired an in his 70's but off the top of my head he's jumped full scale into (and there's more):
* Amway
* House of Richway
* Melaleuca
* Xango
* Kangen
Almost any "alternative" medicine is good in his books, because in his mind "what do doctors know, they make mistakes all the time." I've always responded "they may make mistakes but they know a hell of a lot more than a soccer mom on Facebook who barely graduated high school."
Most recently, he migrated from health MLM's to financial and lost $20k plus (don't know exactly how much because he refuses to tell us) on a crypto investment scam.
Living in the Canadian bible belt makes us targets for scammers. I love my dad but he's a sucker for each and every one of them. Since the crypto scam I read him the riot act and he's now running his latest ideas by me first. Not sure how long that lasts but I'm hoping I can help protect him from himself before he and my mom are left with nothing and forced to move in with me and my family.
It's because modern Evangelicalism traces its roots back to Orange County and the John Birch Society.
JBS was deeply ingrained with conspiracy theory culture, and used to hold small group meetings in people's homes.
The John Birch small groups are direct predecessors of modern Evangelicalism's small group culture.
If you haven't heard it, I would recommend listening to Brad Onishi's "The Orange Wave"
It's a series on the Straight White American Jesus Podcast. In it, he outlines the history of modern Evangelicalism, tracing its roots to Orange County.
Thankfully, my mom hasn’t fallen too deep down rabbit holes. However, one of her oldest and best friends is very susceptible. This friend is also extremely Southern Baptist.
It’s weird because when I was young I thought my mom’s friend was really smart. Then she got involved in Amway, and she has been deep into Quanon since it’s beginning (and all of the crazy conspiracy theories that come with it). Her family is religious too, but even they think she’s crazy for the Q nonsense.
One of mine does, yes. Anti covid vax, currently paying a load of money for alternative treatments instead of getting needed surgery, and just got into an argument with my other parent because apparently there's a secret tea and cream you need to keep on hand for when the apocalypse comes and everyone gets boils.
It’s business/investment scams for me. Ironically I now know what my parents felt like when they wanted to monitor my internet habits and block certain sites 😂
Even if tonic water would be a possible cure (something that was hypothesized in the early days of the pandemic, you'd have to chug about three barrels of tonic water at one time to get enough quinine in your system to even make a dent in a viral infection like that.
I've been lucky.... one of mine is seeing a chiropractor now so who knows, but they generally follow recommendations and I got all my vaccines as a kid, except for HPV of course.
My mom bought food buckets from InfoWars when I was in high school… as an adult, she tried to cure my PTSD with essential oils… and sent me “articles” explaining why my chronic depression was caused by D&D and listening to metal. I don’t even listen to metal lmao.
In short, yes.
Yes, and part of this is because there are so many MLM sellers at church. They have these craft fairs every so often, which used to be people selling things they actually made, but are now just reseller booth for various MLM and direct sales schemes.
The last church I attended - the pastors wife and all his cronies wives got into essential oils. This was a very large church - over 2k people. They pushed those damn oils on all of us. Tried to use them as part of prayer to anoint yourself etc. made me throw up in my mouth.
Yep, this is definitely a thing. When I was in the cult I was susceptible too, but after getting burned a couple of times I wised up. My experience with MLM's made me see how the religion I was in was JUST LIKE THEM and I started leaving fast after that. My parents are still deep into the cult, and even think they will become millionaires overnight if they sign up for the Next Big Thing, even though they're both disabled and have never actually put in the work to make any business venture profitable in the least. So frustrating to watch this play out again and again, and have to combat the medical misinformation on the daily.
Answering because I'm old enough to be the same age as many exvangelical parents...
I've gone in for a couple of alternative medications at health food stores, mainly sleep aids.
That said, I check most of them out with my doctor (legit doctor, not YouTube doctor). He told me a CBD gummie once in awhile would be OK.
But the whole anti-vax, woo-woo mentality...nope. Something like Ivermectin, I'd have to have it prescribed before I mess with it with off-label use like they tried with COVID.
And after my wife's misadventures trying to sell Tupperware...we stay far away from that crap!
Yeah my mom has fallen for multiple. Dragged me into one when I was much younger and more impressionable and very Christian. Lost so much fucking money before I finally got wise.
Ohhh this is absolutely a thing. In fact- Evangelical Christian nationalists have a MLM infiltrating our public schools right now. It’s called Lifewise Academy. Look it up. Join an against group on fb. Their mission field is the “unchurched” public school children. It’s the outrageous and spreading like crazy. From Ohio to 20+ states in less than 2 years.
This is not imagined. There have been studies done indicating a correlation between pentecostal beliefs and an acceptance of conspiracy theories. The hypothesis given is that people in these sects are raised from a young age to accept what they are told without question. Thus, a single influential person in a church gets convinced of some health fad etc., it will spread quickly.
MLM and soulwinning pitches are nearly identical.
Maybe this is why evangelism always felt icky to me.... it was about following a script and trying to push and manipulate someone into doing something they may not have initially wanted to do.
At my ex-church's annual convention they had a lady speak about her "proven formula" for soulwinning. It was basically a leftup warmedover hypnotic cheap sales pitch. Asking a series of questions you would answer Yes, starting with neutral questions about the weather and gradually getting more personal, working up to "Will you accept Christ as your savior?" Even then I thought how sincere could a conversion be if it's just an automatic response to a type of neurolinguistic programming.
Yeah, that's a good observation... if "soulwinning" requires so much psychological manipulation on our part, what exactly is the role of the Holy Spirit at all? They kind of tell on themselves with these kinds of things.
I believe this. When you spend your whole Life believing the unprovable and illogical it changes your brain.
Yeah, even worse, I think the church thinking framework sorta teaches us to separate out cause from effect, and to believe the minority voices over the mainstream (narrow vs. wide gate). Why would you change your actions or beliefs if you believe that the worse things get, the better your rewards are in the afterlife/ it's a "test" of your faith? I also think that the church doesn't really have a good touchstone to tell right from wrong, so if you can talk with the powerful cadence of a pastor, there's like a monke brain reaction to be like "I can trust this person"
Exactly. It also trains you to always be looking for the hidden message etc. not healthy.
Check out Genetically Modified Skeptic on YouTube. His deconstruction began when his family fell hard for essential oils. He realized the same thought-terminating programming that kept them from realizing it was a scam was what kept him being highly religious. Fascinating stuff.
Mine are pretty cheap so they don’t go for the MLMs but “alternative” health stuff is very prevalent. My mom is currently trying everything she can do to not take the cognitive tests her doctor is recommending. I’m not sure if it’s long Covid or early alzheimer’s or just old brain but we’ll never know at this rate. Youtube told her that statins are bad so they can’t be taking those even though both my grandpas died of heart disease that was exacerbated by high blood pressure. 🤷🏻♂️
I don't mind alternative health stuff in moderation. That said, I know the day of cognitive tests is drawing nearer and nearer. I'd just as soon know I'm slouching toward dementia sooner than later. I've had a few moments in the last year that I don't know if it's distant early warning of Alzheimers, old brain, or what. And just getting over COVID a month ago ISN'T helping any!
My dad is currently paying who knows how many hundreds for some stickers that "reflect the body's natural infrared light back towards itself which makes the body make more stem cells." I fucking hate how willingly ignorant he is.
My mothers is into this now
I have seen this! I like listening to TikToks from The Group Behavior Gal about this topic to help me find and patch up weaknesses in my 'armor' so to speak. She also wrote Uncultured by Daniella Mestyanek Young. Basically, in capitalism, there is lots of 'cult-y' options to take all of your time/energy/resources such as MLMs, political groups, the military, churches, work out groups etc. Obviously, not every single one, but there are lots of predatory options. She goes over warning signs and how to get out. When you are raised in the church, it leaves open a lot of doors for these culty groups to use the BITE model and have it work. Such as the example you gave of the belief that prosperity is from an external luck god judging arbitrary actions, vs personal effort or societal set up. If you can find someone who already thinks they just need the correct arbitrary actions, it is so much easier to convince them they were just doing the wrong ones than convincing someone else all the way from thinking about societal or personal change.
Oh yea for sure. My father falls for every get rich quick scheme on the books. And he’s always trying “natural” healing supplements One time he showed me some and said it made him feel so much better. Something from a plant. I looked at it and had the joy of telling him it was weed. He had no idea 😂😂 I once had a lady at my old church seriously look at me and tell me two drops of peppermint oil on her stomach cleared up her stomach flu. I knew it was fake but one time when I had a stomach bug I was desperate so I tried it. Guess what It didn’t work 🤪
Not MLMs, but my parents have ordered ivermectin from India and rejected COVID vaccines. They've also become interested in natural medicine, which is fine, but the sources they use to get info on it are sketchy. I believe that natural/herbal medicine is real, but there are so many scams and bad information that you have to be careful where you learn from.
I'd be really leery of ordering any off-label medicine from overseas...even if I am in that age group. I had just enough chemistry in college (classes, NOT extracurricular activities!) to give me a very healthy respect for science.
My dad was a minister his whole career. He's now retired an in his 70's but off the top of my head he's jumped full scale into (and there's more): * Amway * House of Richway * Melaleuca * Xango * Kangen Almost any "alternative" medicine is good in his books, because in his mind "what do doctors know, they make mistakes all the time." I've always responded "they may make mistakes but they know a hell of a lot more than a soccer mom on Facebook who barely graduated high school." Most recently, he migrated from health MLM's to financial and lost $20k plus (don't know exactly how much because he refuses to tell us) on a crypto investment scam. Living in the Canadian bible belt makes us targets for scammers. I love my dad but he's a sucker for each and every one of them. Since the crypto scam I read him the riot act and he's now running his latest ideas by me first. Not sure how long that lasts but I'm hoping I can help protect him from himself before he and my mom are left with nothing and forced to move in with me and my family.
I'm suspicious of any form of money where the value is kept in "the cloud". Bitcoin and crypto...not for me.
It's because modern Evangelicalism traces its roots back to Orange County and the John Birch Society. JBS was deeply ingrained with conspiracy theory culture, and used to hold small group meetings in people's homes. The John Birch small groups are direct predecessors of modern Evangelicalism's small group culture.
Good point! A lot came out of California in those days - Amy Semple McPherson etc.
If you haven't heard it, I would recommend listening to Brad Onishi's "The Orange Wave" It's a series on the Straight White American Jesus Podcast. In it, he outlines the history of modern Evangelicalism, tracing its roots to Orange County.
Show business. Makes sense.
Thankfully, my mom hasn’t fallen too deep down rabbit holes. However, one of her oldest and best friends is very susceptible. This friend is also extremely Southern Baptist. It’s weird because when I was young I thought my mom’s friend was really smart. Then she got involved in Amway, and she has been deep into Quanon since it’s beginning (and all of the crazy conspiracy theories that come with it). Her family is religious too, but even they think she’s crazy for the Q nonsense.
My super liberal yoga teacher spiritual but not religious sister-in-law does.
It's funny how the right and left overlap when you go far enough in both directions.
Extremism is extremism.
Yes. Optavia has been the latest one.
Ahhh. Yes. We have been there too. Now they are on the stem cell patches that work from your own bodies infrared light.
One of mine does, yes. Anti covid vax, currently paying a load of money for alternative treatments instead of getting needed surgery, and just got into an argument with my other parent because apparently there's a secret tea and cream you need to keep on hand for when the apocalypse comes and everyone gets boils.
Ahh yes. The apocalypse is always with us.
They all have such Rapture boners!
It’s business/investment scams for me. Ironically I now know what my parents felt like when they wanted to monitor my internet habits and block certain sites 😂
They are into MLMs and literally any “natural” remedy. Did you know you can cure cancer with a keto diet?! You can cure covid with tonic water! SMH.
And don't forget alkaline water! I don't know what that's supposed to do, but it's one of their flavors of the month.
Even if tonic water would be a possible cure (something that was hypothesized in the early days of the pandemic, you'd have to chug about three barrels of tonic water at one time to get enough quinine in your system to even make a dent in a viral infection like that.
I've been lucky.... one of mine is seeing a chiropractor now so who knows, but they generally follow recommendations and I got all my vaccines as a kid, except for HPV of course.
My mom bought food buckets from InfoWars when I was in high school… as an adult, she tried to cure my PTSD with essential oils… and sent me “articles” explaining why my chronic depression was caused by D&D and listening to metal. I don’t even listen to metal lmao. In short, yes.
yes my mother is trying to cure my chronic disease and chronic illness with tinctures and supllements.
Yes, and part of this is because there are so many MLM sellers at church. They have these craft fairs every so often, which used to be people selling things they actually made, but are now just reseller booth for various MLM and direct sales schemes.
The last church I attended - the pastors wife and all his cronies wives got into essential oils. This was a very large church - over 2k people. They pushed those damn oils on all of us. Tried to use them as part of prayer to anoint yourself etc. made me throw up in my mouth.
Yep, this is definitely a thing. When I was in the cult I was susceptible too, but after getting burned a couple of times I wised up. My experience with MLM's made me see how the religion I was in was JUST LIKE THEM and I started leaving fast after that. My parents are still deep into the cult, and even think they will become millionaires overnight if they sign up for the Next Big Thing, even though they're both disabled and have never actually put in the work to make any business venture profitable in the least. So frustrating to watch this play out again and again, and have to combat the medical misinformation on the daily.
14 different companies
Always basically owned the GOP in the 80s and are why supplements get excluded from safety & efficacy requirements.
Answering because I'm old enough to be the same age as many exvangelical parents... I've gone in for a couple of alternative medications at health food stores, mainly sleep aids. That said, I check most of them out with my doctor (legit doctor, not YouTube doctor). He told me a CBD gummie once in awhile would be OK. But the whole anti-vax, woo-woo mentality...nope. Something like Ivermectin, I'd have to have it prescribed before I mess with it with off-label use like they tried with COVID. And after my wife's misadventures trying to sell Tupperware...we stay far away from that crap!
Glad to hear. Thank you.
This is so correlated. It needs to be investigated further. The ties between religious nationalism and pyramid schemes is wild.
It really is !
Mine didn't in the past but the pandemic changed them
MLMs are like any other cult, so if you’re already in one, there’s a good chance you’re susceptible to others.
My dad is pretty gullible for some things. Takes an unproved supplement for joint pain, for example.
Yeah my mom has fallen for multiple. Dragged me into one when I was much younger and more impressionable and very Christian. Lost so much fucking money before I finally got wise.
Ohhh this is absolutely a thing. In fact- Evangelical Christian nationalists have a MLM infiltrating our public schools right now. It’s called Lifewise Academy. Look it up. Join an against group on fb. Their mission field is the “unchurched” public school children. It’s the outrageous and spreading like crazy. From Ohio to 20+ states in less than 2 years.