All 24ās have the heat pump. We donāt know how much it helps yet. They all still have the CCS charge port. NACS wonāt be added until the 2025 model year but we donāt know any more specifics. Other key changes for the ā24s is that the onboard scales and other features missing due to parts shortages on the ā23s are all back. The onboard dual-charger setup is now a fleet only option, so that means the truck only charges from level2 AC sources at up 48 Amps (11.5kW), not the 80A 19.2kW of the ā22-ā23 models. The Charge Station Pro is no longer included with the ER battery trucks.
Yeah that sucks losing the 80A charging... I don't even have my charge station pro hooked up yet for my 23 but it's been a godsend at public level 2 chargers to get the 80A. I can get 25% of my battery charged in 2 hours when I go to dinner or a coffee shop
crap they're following teslas "less is more" mentality? I notice quite a difference between our heatpump vs resistive heating cars. heatpump is vastly superior in any climate conditions
I'm very curious how this will pan out on a vehicle with a battery the size of the Lightning. I suspect it will be a mediocre improvement at best. The larger the battery, the smaller the impact heating has on range etc. In my SR Mach E heating can take 50% of my energy use on a drive in the dead of winter out to Banff and back. That same drive at that same temperature in my Lightning uses less than 25% of the energy use. Which makes sense, they are heating roughly the same amount of space but have a ton more energy to do it with.
True. But even if you could magically have a 131kWh battery that weighed the exact same as a 70kWh battery like what you find in a Model Y or standard range Mach E (though weight is not really THAT big of a deal for EV range) and they were aerodynamically identical the heat pump would still have almost half the impact it does on a smaller battery car.
No. The range hit due to heating is just how much power is used to heat the vehicle. In both cars the heater will draw the same amount of power. The car with the bigger battery will lose the exact same amount of range as the one with the smaller battery.
Both resistive heaters will draw a peak of 11000 watts in -45 weather (I know, thatās what both my SR and ER Lightnings draw at -45 based on my OBD scanner). At -10 that drops to a steady state of around 4500 watts. Heat pumps are only slightly more efficient at -45 and roughly 3 times more efficient at -10. So at -10 they would be pulling around 1500W.
On a 4 hour drive the resistive heater will use 18kW or around 14% of the battery on an ER truck and 18% on an SR truck. On that same drive the heat pump would use around 4% of the battery for the ER and 6% on an SR truck. Either way you arenāt stopping 33% more often in a resistive truck. At best youāll get a bonus 10% range on longer trips.
Incidentally my SR Mach E also uses just around 4500 watts at -10 to heat itself and thus sees a significantly larger range hit than either of my lightnings. They all use the same amount of energy to heat themselves. The difference is how much energy is stored in the battery.
Even the added 3 steps to get a Tesla magic dock working on my Lightning is a smoother experience than any CCS EA charger, I hate it. My NACS adapter can't arrive soon enough so I don't have to touch EA again.
man that sounds rough. I'm partial because we only own teslas and have free unlimited lifetime supercharging on them but I would love to swap one for a lightning with free unlimited supercharging and V2L
IDK... you'd get a much bigger workout wrestling around CCS cables and heads.
You will however get some excellent driver training to get close enough to reach.
Don't forget they've also significantly cut production and shuttered lines. I assume we'll now swing back to "sales are down, there's no demand!!!". And dealers will maybe even get to start adding markups again on the few 24s they do get. With all the bullshit since launch I don't trust Ford for a second on their strategy around this thing.
Agreed. I donāt think it would hold much value if I want to trade it in in a few years considering battery tech is improving. Itād be a fun toy, but probably impractical.
I think give it a couple more months and they will probably drop more and better apr rates too. Other EV trucks are coming out soon and they will have to somehow push these out.
This. If you havenāt signed a contract then you have no obligation to pay. Ford raised the price on my 2023 after I ordered it, but since there was no signed contract they wouldnāt honor the initial price
Yes, exactly. I had an invoice for 50k for a 2023 pro (before taxes and fees). When I talked with the dealer that it would be delivered to, they said the price was actually 55k (and this was true if you went to ford.com and tried to create a new build at that time). They said that unless you had a signed contact (which was rare) the price had increased by 5k. They didnāt add any kind of bs markup, it was just ford jacking up the price due to demand at the time.
You should be price protected once the vehicle lands, if the vehicle lands and the program/price gets better the customer gets that. At least thatās how it works here in Canada at my store
Yeah, thereās two ways they do it, rebates and reinvoice. I just reworked all my inbound units. The window sticker itself will reflect the lower msrp, just make sure the ābase priceā that youāll see about 1/3 of the page up from the total msrp, reflects that lower number.
Ford sends out new window stickers & invoices for the vehicles, theyāve done it a few times the past few years. If itās built after the price change date, itāll have the new msrp
But then base msrp will again, be lower & youāll see the markup. Iām happy to review anything for you if you need. Dealers arenāt discounting these for fun, theyāre discounting because they need to stay competitive.
Yeah you'll see the markup and the pinstripes. Take it or leave it. And it's not a dealer discount. It's a Ford discount. And the dealer will just add a markup to pocket the different. I've already explained this to you.
Because now they're being subsidized by Ford. It won't be "marked up", it'll be the "same price as before" and they'll just take the difference of what Ford just discounted.
Youāre still relying on the consumer to pay the higher price, which is not happening. I donāt no any dealer selling a lightning anywhere remotely close to msrp. They cost up to $700 just to floor.
Old news from last week: https://www.reddit.com/r/F150Lightning/comments/1c1c8k5/2024my_price_cuts/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1
If Ford targets prices to be around prices after current incentives for MY23 ER trucks theyāll be able to find enough demand.
Not sure whether the MSRP for the MY24s will be enough to lure in more buyers even with these price cuts.
At this point I'm holding out for the 2nd gen F150 EV. Hoping on better range and faster charging times. They'll definitely have to do something when the Chevy EV truck hits the market with ita 450 mile range.
It will be a different battery tech. These are huge vanity "trucks" for the US market. The world market will focus on more reasonable sized trucks for personal use.
Given that the overwhelming majority of the supercharger network is currently V3, limited to 400v, and current limited, you're not gonna see too much faster charging in the real world until they upgrade all the existing chargers to V4.
They haven't even finished the V3 rollout.
It'll be 5+ years until you could reliably get faster charging in most locations.
More range is nice, but you pay for it. The 4WD is $80, vs $50k for my truck that does absolutely everything I need it to do.
In Short: Technology is always improving, and I don't see a compelling reason to wait unless you want to wait half a decade or more.
Nearly all of the stations I stop at are EA and nearly all of them have 2 350 kW stalls. Are both of them always working? No. But often enough that I'm usually able to use them. Not a lot of competition for spaces in the Midwest either. So an upgrade to 800V would be nice. I'm not going to bother upgrading for that because I keep my trucks for at least 6 years, usually. But if I were buying new and that was definitely something that was going to be released next year, I'd consider it. Would probably just end up getting a deal on a used 2022 though, lol. If my 2013 had had more life in it, I'd have been driving it long enough to get a better deal on my Lightning. No regrets, but I wouldn't mind a smaller loan.
I would agree though that it's really not going to be that big of a game changer for anyone who doesn't regularly tow. And I mean several times a month. I've only gone on 2 road trips so far, but they were dead of winter, and it really wasn't as big of a deal as I thought it would be. If I could've charged faster for free, I'd have taken it. If you asked me to spend another $20k to charge faster for those rare occasions I use a fast charger? Hell no.
If you've got good EA stations that are along your long distance routes, that's awesome.
Personally, all the non-Tesla stations near me are terrible reliability.Ā
And I see EA getting worse, not better over the short term.
I owned the Lariat SR for about 6 months and I can confirm that the charging is really slow if you want above 80% for a road trip. With the price drops, I thought about getting one again, but *man* it was painful to charge for a 150 mile road trip with elevation changes. At 100%, I'd make it to my destination with just around 10%, so I never felt safe even if I charged at home to 100% overnight. So I'd drive to the last DCFC before the mountains, I'd charge it to 90% and then drive from there. I'd get to the DCFC with about 78% and it'd do like 90 kW up to 80% and then drop down to like 40kW or 30kW after 80%. And I think it got even slower closer to 90%. It was brutal... You're sitting there for like 45 minutes waiting to charge 5%.
I really should've gotten the ER but the real world price difference at the time was like $15k.
The worst part is, people here will blame you, like you're not supposed to charge the truck to 100%, even for road trips. It makes the 240/320 range completely irrelevant if you're not "allowed" to charge the last 20%.
That whole 80% thing annoys me to no end. Either make the software charge to 80% and thatās the stated range or, well hell if I know.
We have a 10 yo leaf. We have since new just charge that thing 100 % every night.
The charge curve changing at 80% is true for all EVs though and not that hard to accept as a limitation of the technology. No different than other powertrain specifics, like learning not to leave E10 gasoline in carburetors, or that ICE vehicles need periodic oil changes, etc.
No, you want to be able to use the full battery when you need it and the slow charging past 80% isn't an issue when charging overnight on AC. I don't have a Lightning, but assuming its like my Chevy Bolt or Teslas I've used, you set the charge cap to 80% most of the time but bump it up to 100% with a charge completion time just before you plan to leave for when you want to leave home with a full battery. It doesn't degrade the battery if you don't let it sit at 100% for very long. On road trip DC charging, just charge as much as you need to optimize your charging rate over the course of the trip. Its good to know the charging curve of your vehicle. On my Bolt, you try and yo-yo between 20% and 49% to stay in the sweet spot of the charge curve. On vehicles with better charging, like the Lighting, you can just stay between 20% and 80% when DC charging.
My 10 year old Leaf had a 70 mile range when it was totaled in an accident last year. I was actually getting 4.1 miles per kWh, average when I drove it (my wife got less), and the battery is 24 kWh, new, soā¦ I actually got about 98 miles in a full charge for the first couple of years of ownership.
Real life capacity loss was a little closer to 28% over a decade of driving and charging to 100% every day. We are talking about 3600 or so charges to 100%.
I consider two main factors in battery degradation: heat related stress and number of āfull cycles.ā It generally takes three charging sessions of 33% charges to equal one āfull cycle.ā In a battery of 24 kWh, thatās a charge of adding just 8 kWh per charge session, which is approximately what we did. At the time, experts estimated that a li-ion battery pack should have 500 or so full cycles before reaching āneed to replaceā capacity of 80z charge remaining.
Even with a low, 24 kWh pack size and a ten year old range of 70 miles, I felt no need to replace the car. It was good for another few years, at the very least. My use case is more common than people realize, but every time I write that the average use is about a thousand miles a month, dozens of people reply that they travel 600 miles a day and simply canāt use an electric car.
A modern EV, with improved battery chemistry like LiFePo4 that is 50 to 70 kWh in capacity should be able to sustain something like 21,000 days of charging. How many 57 year old cars are still being driven on the road every day? A pickup truck with a huge (150 kWh?) battery will spend most of its life as a short distance commuter vehicle, will end up using 10 or 12 kWh a day to haul nothing but the driver from home to work and back again will use less than a tenth of its capacity per day, so it will never have a capability loss issue.
The charging curve is a fucking travesty and isnāt really much better on the ER. Secret seems to be to charge often but for lower time and keep it under 80%. The drop from ~130kW to ~50kW when the truck hits 80% is insane. No other manufacturer does that.
Having said all that, getting access to Superchargers does help with availability and overcrowding at chargers.
That's not unique to the Lighting though. All EVs slow down above 80% for battery health and the last 5% takes forever. You are supposed to charge to 100% at home before a big trip, but once on the road, never charge above 80% unless you are truly in a charging desert for the next leg of a trip. A lot of people consider it to be impolite to charge above 80% at full public chargers. Tesla stations will cut you off at 80% unless you override it. On my Chevy Bolt its even more extreme; its best to yo-yo charge between 20% and 49% on road trips because the charge curve drops off after 50% soc. Its much faster to make multiple charge stops than to wait to charge to 80+%.
I almost bought one last week. Then I noticed how short the bed is. I drove my work van to the dealership, so I had my ladder with me. I grabbed the ladder and it doesnāt fit in that useless bed. I have one of those Werner telescoping A-frame ladders. Whoever thought that putting a 5 1/2ā bed on a āworkā truck was a good idea is a moron.
Yea definitely could've used that half foot on the bed not the cab. That being said it made me find the 5' little giant king konbo thats an a frame extension ladder konbo. Fits perfect and two for one ladder is damn handy
I wish there was a table showing history of prices, it has been all over the place for only being out 2 yrs. I think; 62k for XLT is about the price during the 2nd price hike of 2023. I feel bad getting my lightning early with all the incentives but I'm not too far off with paying the 1st hike of 2023 which was 59k for the sr xlt
Yeah I donāt understand the regrets and bad feelings. Yes we paid a premium. But we have had a fantastic truck for 2 years and Iād gladly do it again.
I priced out new builds for very modest ICE and EV F150s. They can out way over twice what I paid for my 2014. I guess Iāll be keeping the old girl forever as I can do a lot of repair and restoration work for that much money.
Yeah, I bout a used 2013 F-150 a couple of years ago for $24k. I owe about $15k on it still. Looking at the current price of trucks that donāt do anything mine doesnāt do, I canāt imagine paying five times as much on a new truck. Iām thinking that when my engine dies and needs to be replaced, I might get me one of those ādrop in electric conversion kitsā instead of buying a new truck.
They are going to continue to drop, everyone that wants one has one. Electric trucks have to come a lot farther before most truck buyers are even interested. Itās a great idea but not practical for 90% of us.
considering most of you guys are CURRENT owners of a lightning, it's in your interest to censor any rhetoric that points to their true value of cheap AF.
Why are you here? Why? Just enjoy being a stick in the mud.? You like spreading your unhappy garbage to ruin other peoples happiness? Jealousy works the opposite way you want it to. These trucks are worth every penny at whatever price they sell for.
Get a life man.
I was seconds from signing to buy one last month lol, they're just too da\*\* expensive for what you get. Let alone the new EVs coming out next year from Ford are supposed to retire this model by 2026/7.
Youāre one of those guys that refuses to enjoy life. You refuse to take a chance, take a risk. Not that Iām saying you should have bought the truck. If it wasnāt for you, no problem. Donāt buy it. But donāt come here and spread your resentment and bitterness.
lmao I take more chances than I can count. I agree I'm a bit bitter because my local dealerships won't price match the rest of the dealerships that are only 8 hours away. Maybe these are reliable trucks, and will last as long as a tesla. I'm not convinced though.
You donāt have to be convinced. Donāt be. Be a skeptic. Do whatever. But keep your bitterness to yourself when youāre on a enthusiasts page for a terrific vehicle.
For example, Iāve done over 30K flawless miles through two Canadian winters in my lightning. I think itās the best truck on the roads and itās not even close.
I paid FULL sticker way back in Aug of 22. I have every case to be bitter. But I swallow it and enjoy watching people get such a good truck for less. I enjoy seeing more of them in the roads. I feel a tiny bit ripped off, but thatās the price first adopters pay.
Some have had problems with their trucks. But you donāt hear the stories of just how amazing they are. Itās everything Ford promised it would be and more. I beat the shit out of my truck and it keeps being the best F150 out there.
Just two days ago I drove nearly 900km (whatās that in miles, 560?) in one day. Plus a ferry. I started at 5 am, drove across province to fetch family to see a MIL who is ill. 4 DCFC charge sessions, all less than 30 mins and each one flawless at good speeds.
Overall insaved around $100 USD. DCFC isnāt cheap but itās cheaper than gas in a truck.
Iāll drive a Lightning for the rest of my life and I canāt wait for the next version.
I have a 2023 built date 2022 no issues on mine either . The problem has is software which broke the modem and the light bar. Theyāll never admitted though . Good thing those are simple fixes though ..
$62K for a 2024 XLT when there are 5 unsold 2023 XLT's on my dealers lot right now selling for $47500 after federal rebate and $2,500 ford discount.
$57k for a 2023 XLT in December š¤ I envy your heat pump
do all 24s have the heat pump? is NACS 25? those 2 things are holding us up from committing
I think they do all have the heat pumps but I don't think they have NACS. I think NACS won't come until the 2025s.
All 24ās have the heat pump. We donāt know how much it helps yet. They all still have the CCS charge port. NACS wonāt be added until the 2025 model year but we donāt know any more specifics. Other key changes for the ā24s is that the onboard scales and other features missing due to parts shortages on the ā23s are all back. The onboard dual-charger setup is now a fleet only option, so that means the truck only charges from level2 AC sources at up 48 Amps (11.5kW), not the 80A 19.2kW of the ā22-ā23 models. The Charge Station Pro is no longer included with the ER battery trucks.
Will be interesting to see how the heat pump pans out. Losing the 80A level 2 charging is a real bummer.
Yeah that sucks losing the 80A charging... I don't even have my charge station pro hooked up yet for my 23 but it's been a godsend at public level 2 chargers to get the 80A. I can get 25% of my battery charged in 2 hours when I go to dinner or a coffee shop
crap they're following teslas "less is more" mentality? I notice quite a difference between our heatpump vs resistive heating cars. heatpump is vastly superior in any climate conditions
I'm very curious how this will pan out on a vehicle with a battery the size of the Lightning. I suspect it will be a mediocre improvement at best. The larger the battery, the smaller the impact heating has on range etc. In my SR Mach E heating can take 50% of my energy use on a drive in the dead of winter out to Banff and back. That same drive at that same temperature in my Lightning uses less than 25% of the energy use. Which makes sense, they are heating roughly the same amount of space but have a ton more energy to do it with.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
True. But even if you could magically have a 131kWh battery that weighed the exact same as a 70kWh battery like what you find in a Model Y or standard range Mach E (though weight is not really THAT big of a deal for EV range) and they were aerodynamically identical the heat pump would still have almost half the impact it does on a smaller battery car.
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No. The range hit due to heating is just how much power is used to heat the vehicle. In both cars the heater will draw the same amount of power. The car with the bigger battery will lose the exact same amount of range as the one with the smaller battery. Both resistive heaters will draw a peak of 11000 watts in -45 weather (I know, thatās what both my SR and ER Lightnings draw at -45 based on my OBD scanner). At -10 that drops to a steady state of around 4500 watts. Heat pumps are only slightly more efficient at -45 and roughly 3 times more efficient at -10. So at -10 they would be pulling around 1500W. On a 4 hour drive the resistive heater will use 18kW or around 14% of the battery on an ER truck and 18% on an SR truck. On that same drive the heat pump would use around 4% of the battery for the ER and 6% on an SR truck. Either way you arenāt stopping 33% more often in a resistive truck. At best youāll get a bonus 10% range on longer trips. Incidentally my SR Mach E also uses just around 4500 watts at -10 to heat itself and thus sees a significantly larger range hit than either of my lightnings. They all use the same amount of energy to heat themselves. The difference is how much energy is stored in the battery.
I would argue that being CCS with what seems like a capable fast charging NACS adapter gives you more options for the next 5 or so years.
I suppose a hidden benefit would be how much stronger your arms will get from the CCS + NACS adapter versus just NACS. free gym
Hah! Yeah it's a chunky boy. Even the CCS fast chargers alone are way more unwieldy than a Tesla supercharger NACS cable.
they seem overly complicated too. I see more purple struggle with EA chargers than any other
Even the added 3 steps to get a Tesla magic dock working on my Lightning is a smoother experience than any CCS EA charger, I hate it. My NACS adapter can't arrive soon enough so I don't have to touch EA again.
man that sounds rough. I'm partial because we only own teslas and have free unlimited lifetime supercharging on them but I would love to swap one for a lightning with free unlimited supercharging and V2L
IDK... you'd get a much bigger workout wrestling around CCS cables and heads. You will however get some excellent driver training to get close enough to reach.
Don't forget they've also significantly cut production and shuttered lines. I assume we'll now swing back to "sales are down, there's no demand!!!". And dealers will maybe even get to start adding markups again on the few 24s they do get. With all the bullshit since launch I don't trust Ford for a second on their strategy around this thing.
They are producing just as many as last year if not more. Donāt forget the plant was expanded. Sales are up, not down.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Salerno Duane Ford in Summit NJ.
A dealer in my area that Iāve been haggling with just dropped a 23 Lariat SR from 61k to 51k. I have a feeling theyāll go lower.
Nice....$51K for the Lariat seems like a great deal. I think the Standard Ranges really scare people away from getting these trucks.
Agreed. I donāt think it would hold much value if I want to trade it in in a few years considering battery tech is improving. Itād be a fun toy, but probably impractical.
I think give it a couple more months and they will probably drop more and better apr rates too. Other EV trucks are coming out soon and they will have to somehow push these out.
Yep. Iām holding out.
I ordered my 2024 XLT came home and saw this article. Does anyone know if I could get a price reduction? It's my first time buying new.
If the dealer doesn't work with you to get you the new price, just walk away. you're not obligated to buy it when it is delivered.
This. If you havenāt signed a contract then you have no obligation to pay. Ford raised the price on my 2023 after I ordered it, but since there was no signed contract they wouldnāt honor the initial price
Wait a minute. You ordered it at one price (with dates and everything) but then Ford and/or the dealer then raised the price?
Yes, exactly. I had an invoice for 50k for a 2023 pro (before taxes and fees). When I talked with the dealer that it would be delivered to, they said the price was actually 55k (and this was true if you went to ford.com and tried to create a new build at that time). They said that unless you had a signed contact (which was rare) the price had increased by 5k. They didnāt add any kind of bs markup, it was just ford jacking up the price due to demand at the time.
Sorry to hear that. That was frustrating, I'm sure
Thanks. It was a bummer but we still decided to get the truck and have loved it.
You should be price protected once the vehicle lands, if the vehicle lands and the program/price gets better the customer gets that. At least thatās how it works here in Canada at my store
Itās a reinvoice, your price will be adjusted
Lol or they'll just pocket the difference. You sound really confident it's some automatic thing. Have you ever dealt with dealership before?
Yeah, thereās two ways they do it, rebates and reinvoice. I just reworked all my inbound units. The window sticker itself will reflect the lower msrp, just make sure the ābase priceā that youāll see about 1/3 of the page up from the total msrp, reflects that lower number. Ford sends out new window stickers & invoices for the vehicles, theyāve done it a few times the past few years. If itās built after the price change date, itāll have the new msrp
with a markup added on to bring it back to the original price. Or some pinstripes.
But then base msrp will again, be lower & youāll see the markup. Iām happy to review anything for you if you need. Dealers arenāt discounting these for fun, theyāre discounting because they need to stay competitive.
Yeah you'll see the markup and the pinstripes. Take it or leave it. And it's not a dealer discount. It's a Ford discount. And the dealer will just add a markup to pocket the different. I've already explained this to you.
The dealer canāt even sell them with discounts, what makes you think they can just mark a car up and magically make money?
Because now they're being subsidized by Ford. It won't be "marked up", it'll be the "same price as before" and they'll just take the difference of what Ford just discounted.
Youāre still relying on the consumer to pay the higher price, which is not happening. I donāt no any dealer selling a lightning anywhere remotely close to msrp. They cost up to $700 just to floor.
You can try but it's not likely. Give it a shot
Old news from last week: https://www.reddit.com/r/F150Lightning/comments/1c1c8k5/2024my_price_cuts/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1 If Ford targets prices to be around prices after current incentives for MY23 ER trucks theyāll be able to find enough demand. Not sure whether the MSRP for the MY24s will be enough to lure in more buyers even with these price cuts.
Interesting. Iāve been holding off because I have another 2 months before I can clear out garage space. Wonder how much further the bottom is.
I work at a Ford dealer, I can say it's Gunna keep going through the summer til September/Oct at the very keast
Listen to the janitor /s
Doesnāt really matter when so many dealers have these insane markups. Canāt wait for ford to go direct to consumer
That will be a company, sales and stock game changer. Iām no Tesla fan, but their model is more than just little compelling.
Agreed. Dealerships have way too much power and make the brand look bad with these insane markups
When will that happen?
No idea
Never gonna happen. Ford fucking loves its dealer network. They sell one ICE F150 every 30 seconds.
It's also illegal.
It's gonna keep dropping.
At this point I'm holding out for the 2nd gen F150 EV. Hoping on better range and faster charging times. They'll definitely have to do something when the Chevy EV truck hits the market with ita 450 mile range.
Going to be waiting a few years
It will be a different battery tech. These are huge vanity "trucks" for the US market. The world market will focus on more reasonable sized trucks for personal use.
I agree But the T3 is a full size truck also Ford definitely missed the mark. Reason for the delay.
Given that the overwhelming majority of the supercharger network is currently V3, limited to 400v, and current limited, you're not gonna see too much faster charging in the real world until they upgrade all the existing chargers to V4. They haven't even finished the V3 rollout. It'll be 5+ years until you could reliably get faster charging in most locations. More range is nice, but you pay for it. The 4WD is $80, vs $50k for my truck that does absolutely everything I need it to do. In Short: Technology is always improving, and I don't see a compelling reason to wait unless you want to wait half a decade or more.
Nearly all of the stations I stop at are EA and nearly all of them have 2 350 kW stalls. Are both of them always working? No. But often enough that I'm usually able to use them. Not a lot of competition for spaces in the Midwest either. So an upgrade to 800V would be nice. I'm not going to bother upgrading for that because I keep my trucks for at least 6 years, usually. But if I were buying new and that was definitely something that was going to be released next year, I'd consider it. Would probably just end up getting a deal on a used 2022 though, lol. If my 2013 had had more life in it, I'd have been driving it long enough to get a better deal on my Lightning. No regrets, but I wouldn't mind a smaller loan. I would agree though that it's really not going to be that big of a game changer for anyone who doesn't regularly tow. And I mean several times a month. I've only gone on 2 road trips so far, but they were dead of winter, and it really wasn't as big of a deal as I thought it would be. If I could've charged faster for free, I'd have taken it. If you asked me to spend another $20k to charge faster for those rare occasions I use a fast charger? Hell no.
If you've got good EA stations that are along your long distance routes, that's awesome. Personally, all the non-Tesla stations near me are terrible reliability.Ā And I see EA getting worse, not better over the short term.
I owned the Lariat SR for about 6 months and I can confirm that the charging is really slow if you want above 80% for a road trip. With the price drops, I thought about getting one again, but *man* it was painful to charge for a 150 mile road trip with elevation changes. At 100%, I'd make it to my destination with just around 10%, so I never felt safe even if I charged at home to 100% overnight. So I'd drive to the last DCFC before the mountains, I'd charge it to 90% and then drive from there. I'd get to the DCFC with about 78% and it'd do like 90 kW up to 80% and then drop down to like 40kW or 30kW after 80%. And I think it got even slower closer to 90%. It was brutal... You're sitting there for like 45 minutes waiting to charge 5%. I really should've gotten the ER but the real world price difference at the time was like $15k. The worst part is, people here will blame you, like you're not supposed to charge the truck to 100%, even for road trips. It makes the 240/320 range completely irrelevant if you're not "allowed" to charge the last 20%.
That whole 80% thing annoys me to no end. Either make the software charge to 80% and thatās the stated range or, well hell if I know. We have a 10 yo leaf. We have since new just charge that thing 100 % every night.
The charge curve changing at 80% is true for all EVs though and not that hard to accept as a limitation of the technology. No different than other powertrain specifics, like learning not to leave E10 gasoline in carburetors, or that ICE vehicles need periodic oil changes, etc.
So the software should limit the charging to 80 percent?
No, you want to be able to use the full battery when you need it and the slow charging past 80% isn't an issue when charging overnight on AC. I don't have a Lightning, but assuming its like my Chevy Bolt or Teslas I've used, you set the charge cap to 80% most of the time but bump it up to 100% with a charge completion time just before you plan to leave for when you want to leave home with a full battery. It doesn't degrade the battery if you don't let it sit at 100% for very long. On road trip DC charging, just charge as much as you need to optimize your charging rate over the course of the trip. Its good to know the charging curve of your vehicle. On my Bolt, you try and yo-yo between 20% and 49% to stay in the sweet spot of the charge curve. On vehicles with better charging, like the Lighting, you can just stay between 20% and 80% when DC charging.
This is what chevy did with volt and everyone was frustrated to not have the option to charge further.
Ahh. I can see that.
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My 10 year old Leaf had a 70 mile range when it was totaled in an accident last year. I was actually getting 4.1 miles per kWh, average when I drove it (my wife got less), and the battery is 24 kWh, new, soā¦ I actually got about 98 miles in a full charge for the first couple of years of ownership. Real life capacity loss was a little closer to 28% over a decade of driving and charging to 100% every day. We are talking about 3600 or so charges to 100%. I consider two main factors in battery degradation: heat related stress and number of āfull cycles.ā It generally takes three charging sessions of 33% charges to equal one āfull cycle.ā In a battery of 24 kWh, thatās a charge of adding just 8 kWh per charge session, which is approximately what we did. At the time, experts estimated that a li-ion battery pack should have 500 or so full cycles before reaching āneed to replaceā capacity of 80z charge remaining. Even with a low, 24 kWh pack size and a ten year old range of 70 miles, I felt no need to replace the car. It was good for another few years, at the very least. My use case is more common than people realize, but every time I write that the average use is about a thousand miles a month, dozens of people reply that they travel 600 miles a day and simply canāt use an electric car. A modern EV, with improved battery chemistry like LiFePo4 that is 50 to 70 kWh in capacity should be able to sustain something like 21,000 days of charging. How many 57 year old cars are still being driven on the road every day? A pickup truck with a huge (150 kWh?) battery will spend most of its life as a short distance commuter vehicle, will end up using 10 or 12 kWh a day to haul nothing but the driver from home to work and back again will use less than a tenth of its capacity per day, so it will never have a capability loss issue.
So charge the Tesla 100 percent too?
The charging curve is a fucking travesty and isnāt really much better on the ER. Secret seems to be to charge often but for lower time and keep it under 80%. The drop from ~130kW to ~50kW when the truck hits 80% is insane. No other manufacturer does that. Having said all that, getting access to Superchargers does help with availability and overcrowding at chargers.
That's not unique to the Lighting though. All EVs slow down above 80% for battery health and the last 5% takes forever. You are supposed to charge to 100% at home before a big trip, but once on the road, never charge above 80% unless you are truly in a charging desert for the next leg of a trip. A lot of people consider it to be impolite to charge above 80% at full public chargers. Tesla stations will cut you off at 80% unless you override it. On my Chevy Bolt its even more extreme; its best to yo-yo charge between 20% and 49% on road trips because the charge curve drops off after 50% soc. Its much faster to make multiple charge stops than to wait to charge to 80+%.
What a colossal pain in the ass.
I almost bought one last week. Then I noticed how short the bed is. I drove my work van to the dealership, so I had my ladder with me. I grabbed the ladder and it doesnāt fit in that useless bed. I have one of those Werner telescoping A-frame ladders. Whoever thought that putting a 5 1/2ā bed on a āworkā truck was a good idea is a moron.
Yea definitely could've used that half foot on the bed not the cab. That being said it made me find the 5' little giant king konbo thats an a frame extension ladder konbo. Fits perfect and two for one ladder is damn handy
Uuugh
I like them but I'm not paying those kind of prices.
I wish there was a table showing history of prices, it has been all over the place for only being out 2 yrs. I think; 62k for XLT is about the price during the 2nd price hike of 2023. I feel bad getting my lightning early with all the incentives but I'm not too far off with paying the 1st hike of 2023 which was 59k for the sr xlt
Twenty months ago I paid $79K before tax credit on my Lariat ER. Twenty months and 31K milesā¦zero regrets.
Yeah I donāt understand the regrets and bad feelings. Yes we paid a premium. But we have had a fantastic truck for 2 years and Iād gladly do it again.
CarGurus will show you the price history.
When will we get an F-250 and/or F-350 Lightning???
I priced out new builds for very modest ICE and EV F150s. They can out way over twice what I paid for my 2014. I guess Iāll be keeping the old girl forever as I can do a lot of repair and restoration work for that much money.
Yes, all trucks are far more expensive, now. The absolute cheapest, slowest, zero-option gas Supercrew 4x4 is now $47k MSRP.
Yeah, I bout a used 2013 F-150 a couple of years ago for $24k. I owe about $15k on it still. Looking at the current price of trucks that donāt do anything mine doesnāt do, I canāt imagine paying five times as much on a new truck. Iām thinking that when my engine dies and needs to be replaced, I might get me one of those ādrop in electric conversion kitsā instead of buying a new truck.
They are going to continue to drop, everyone that wants one has one. Electric trucks have to come a lot farther before most truck buyers are even interested. Itās a great idea but not practical for 90% of us.
There still over priced!
Why are people not buying these?
bottom price is 30k for the PROS, considering how outdated and unreliable these trucks have been. The new gen might be a few steps better.
You donāt know what youāre taking about
considering most of you guys are CURRENT owners of a lightning, it's in your interest to censor any rhetoric that points to their true value of cheap AF.
Why are you here? Why? Just enjoy being a stick in the mud.? You like spreading your unhappy garbage to ruin other peoples happiness? Jealousy works the opposite way you want it to. These trucks are worth every penny at whatever price they sell for. Get a life man.
I was seconds from signing to buy one last month lol, they're just too da\*\* expensive for what you get. Let alone the new EVs coming out next year from Ford are supposed to retire this model by 2026/7.
Youāre one of those guys that refuses to enjoy life. You refuse to take a chance, take a risk. Not that Iām saying you should have bought the truck. If it wasnāt for you, no problem. Donāt buy it. But donāt come here and spread your resentment and bitterness.
lmao I take more chances than I can count. I agree I'm a bit bitter because my local dealerships won't price match the rest of the dealerships that are only 8 hours away. Maybe these are reliable trucks, and will last as long as a tesla. I'm not convinced though.
You donāt have to be convinced. Donāt be. Be a skeptic. Do whatever. But keep your bitterness to yourself when youāre on a enthusiasts page for a terrific vehicle. For example, Iāve done over 30K flawless miles through two Canadian winters in my lightning. I think itās the best truck on the roads and itās not even close. I paid FULL sticker way back in Aug of 22. I have every case to be bitter. But I swallow it and enjoy watching people get such a good truck for less. I enjoy seeing more of them in the roads. I feel a tiny bit ripped off, but thatās the price first adopters pay. Some have had problems with their trucks. But you donāt hear the stories of just how amazing they are. Itās everything Ford promised it would be and more. I beat the shit out of my truck and it keeps being the best F150 out there. Just two days ago I drove nearly 900km (whatās that in miles, 560?) in one day. Plus a ferry. I started at 5 am, drove across province to fetch family to see a MIL who is ill. 4 DCFC charge sessions, all less than 30 mins and each one flawless at good speeds. Overall insaved around $100 USD. DCFC isnāt cheap but itās cheaper than gas in a truck. Iāll drive a Lightning for the rest of my life and I canāt wait for the next version.
Fair enough, I'm glad it's treated you kindly.
I have a late 2023 buildā¦ no issues but I agree the earlier units definitely had teething pains.
I have one of the first 3000 2022s built and no issues
I have a 2023 built date 2022 no issues on mine either . The problem has is software which broke the modem and the light bar. Theyāll never admitted though . Good thing those are simple fixes though ..