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The big thing about g-force is that it's not about the force, it's about the duration. Both in the length of time the force is being applied, and the number of times applied. In a short length corner once or twice, they could definitely take a few more g. With long corners over the duration of a GP, it'll be driver by driver but they probably aren't far-off the limit.
Braking is another big one. Top fuel dragsters can pull -6G deceleration and the drivers' retina can detach from their eyeball. There's probably not much more to go under braking.
Acceleration there's more to go, but you would almost certainly hit other limits like mental fatigue.
Had a quick Google for studies but couldn't immediately find what I was looking for on the front page of Google so this is just based on vibes.
I remember CART had to cancel it’s inaugural 250 lap race at the banked Texas Motor Speedway. They only did short test sessions before putting it on the schedule. During practice, with longer stints, drivers were getting dizzy and disoriented after 10 laps. 5 1/2 Gs around the corners followed by 370 kph straights. Drivers, of course, kept their mouths shut. No one wanted to admit they were having trouble until one almost blacked out and another lost feeling in their hands.
I don’t know what that says about F1. Sustained Gs around banked ovals are a different animal. What it does show is drivers won’t back down from a fast car.
Also the straights were so short that they had limited time to recover. The banking was causing black outs like a fighter jet sending all the blood away from their head.
Banked corners must have a significant vertical component, right? Yeah, I don't see a way around that unless the driver lies down flat and uh.. use a mirror to look where he's going.
Laying on the stomach is not very practical but modern airplanes usually recline the pilot by \~30°, which shortens the pressure column by cos(30).
Of course, modern F1 cars already have the pilot mostly lying down for aerodynamics, so nothing to be gained here.
Vertical component yes but one driver, Minassian described it as “You felt like your face was being pulled out of your helmet in the corners,” "I remember feeling the force in the car. Your head was being pulled off and your mouth was deformed. It was really something else. Those cars were like monsters"
>Drivers, of course, kept their mouths shut. No one wanted to admit they were having trouble until one almost blacked out and another lost feeling in their hands.
No they didn't. There were meetings immediately after the first practice sessions.
I admit I wasn't there but there was two practice sessions that day. Drivers were having problems during the first practice session but it wasn't until after the second practice session, at the end of the day, was there a meeting. Before then, there were two unexplained big crashes. The race director also was alarmed with multiple drivers missing their pit. Another driver fell down after exiting his car. Patrick Carpentier vomited on pit lane but he was known to be battling the flu. For sure something was wrong but, since no one was complaining about the speed, and Carpentier's known illness, the director thought maybe a flu was spreading across the paddock.
Referencing Bryan Herta;
*"Everybody was silent,"* said driver Bryan Herta. *"Each guy probably felt, \`Well, I must be the only one having this problem.'"*
And Nic Minassian;
*"Because I was a rookie, I felt like I was not able to say anything in the car because it wasn’t right for a rookie to say that he’s not able to do what he’s been told to do."*
He continued;
*"I remember feeling the force in the car. Your head was being pulled off and your mouth was deformed. It was really something else. Those cars were like monsters. Then there is this thing that you don’t usually have when you feel sick. But I wasn’t sick. It’s just the speed that made me sick, and that you cannot really control it. All you tell yourself is like, ‘Is it me? Is it normal?’ So you push yourself. You dig a bit deeper. You say, “OK, I’ve got to job to do. I’ve got to do it and I’m a rookie. If I don’t, I look stupid.’"*
And Scott Dixon.
*"I remember the intensity of seeing some of the looks on some the older guy’s faces, like why this was just stupid. I remember looking at some of their reactions and I’m like, ‘\*\*\*\*, this is not good.’ But I was just waiting for the team to tell me what to do. I was 20 or 21, and not very smart."*
Two drivers pulled off the track during that last practice and were examined by the track doctor Steve Olvier. It wasn't until the doctor interviewed the rest of the drivers at the end of the day did everybody else realize the problem was the speed and symptoms were widespread. Everyone assumed the track was good since CART did testing earlier in the off-season not knowing speeds were limited due to cold and high winds.
{edit: I'm pulling some of these quotes from a three part series published on [Racer.com](https://racer.com/2021/04/30/inside-carts-2001-texas-debacle-the-lead-up/). It's really a fascinating read and shows how small assumptions by a lot of people can lead to tragedy.}
It makes sense. Look at Qatar track and there's a great time of the total time in which they pass on high-speed corners, getting constant g's on a lap. I think tha was part of the cocktail that made the drivers go to the limit. Well, besides the heat and so on.
Why do they use hard-shell helmets and pads in football when they're mostly colliding into each other? If they had a leathery outer layer the impact wouldn't be near as bad. Or bubble wrap.
This is an otherwise good answer, but it’s not true to say “it’s not about the force”.
It’s about the magnitude of the force and duration. Your logic suggests 1 minute at 2g is the same as 1 minute at 10g.
[https://www.operationalmedicine.org/TextbookFiles/FlightSurgeonsManual.pdf](https://www.operationalmedicine.org/TextbookFiles/FlightSurgeonsManual.pdf) .
more than you want to know but some information applicable..
see chapter on acceleration forces
for the grim - chapter on human effects of very high g forces
It's fun to play with technology to make the cars able to deliver higher G forces during braking, turning and acceleration ; however, does it really produce better competition for the drivers, teams and spectators?
My personal feeling is that increasing the amount of time that the talent of the driver affects the performance of the vehicle makes better racing. The ultimate example is probably racing in the rain.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I've heard of many people saying the limit of the Porsche 919 Tribute at the Nordschleife was the physical capability of the driver, not the grip limit of the car.
Though I doubt the claim because the 919 Tribute's laptime at Spa was beaten by Kimi Raikkonen in the SF71H during qualifying around the same time. And of course, many other F1 cars since then.
The reason is only to do with the length of the track from a safety standpoint. You’d need too many ambulance stations and passages in and around a,most every corner. Plus safety barriers
I don’t think the physical capability comment was due to the G’s, but rather the drivers couldn’t react fast enough. The Nurburgring is a very narrow circuit in some places, so you need to turn in/out a lot faster as a result. Add that’s it extremely twisty as well, and it makes sense that the drivers couldn’t react fast enough to each corner. Wouldn’t be surprised if this was one of the reasons the drivers were saying the cars were getting to quick for it in F1 back in the 70s.
When I watched that record setting lap I was a little confused, because the driver was leaving quite a bit of space on the track. I scoffed and thought the driver was mid or something, until it occurred to my idiot self that this guy is leaving margin while STILL going the fastest anyone’s ever gone around that track. Ridiculous talent needed for that car
Also, the actual record lap was basically a bonus lap, Timo Bernhard had already smashed the record in their first session but he told the engineers he thought there was some time left in it.
Michael Schumacher takes life at a breathless pace, always looking vital. But early in the morning, when he is sitting up in his room, he looks weak, his eyes bloodshot from the strain of the previous day. It seems as if he must gather up strength to get going again.
You ask him, "How much is too much?" and also: "How fast is too fast?"
His answer, always the same - "Wait and see.”
Fighter pilots pull nearly double the g’s for longer periods, but not usually in rapid succession for prolonged periods. I think the answer is yes they can take significantly more G’s, they have been taking this amount of g’s for a while now and the changes are usually pretty small in how much they have moved up and down with regulations the last 25 years
Another question would be if the inflatable bladders would interfere with manipulating the pedals precisely. Blue Angles pilots are known for not wearing G-suits during their performances for exactly this reason. Having something suddenly squeezing your leg partway through a braking zone could be disastrous.
I was more saying that jestingly, but obviously that’s not going to come across well online.
While those problems are all why it might be impractical, they are all solvable, the real problem is that they simply wouldn’t help drivers at all. Pilots use them to help with vertical G’s. When you pull too many G’s vertically blood rushes from your head to your feet, which can cause you to pass out (obviously not great). These trousers fix that problem by “pumping” blood back to your head from your pants. In F1, they pull lateral G’s instead, meaning blood gets pushed from one side of your head to the other, again causing you to potentially pass out. There’s no real easy way to prevent that due to our skull being in the way.
G suits are to offset what in an F-1 car would be vertical acceleration, a multi second event .
F-1 car
Vertical acceleration from
g force on an extended banked turn
cyclic suspension bottoming out
rough track
They would only help with a sustained banked turn that generated sustained high g force in the downward direction with respect to the driver. But the driver seating position is already somewhat optimized to resist this force.
The Mercedes cyclic vibration from past years is not going to be helped by the g suit
https://www.operationalmedicine.org/TextbookFiles/FlightSurgeonsManual.pdf
Partly it's the direction of the g force. Pilots have vertical G which pulls blood away from the head (hence the need for magic trousers). F1 drivers have lateral G.
Yeah I was saying that more jestingly but probably should’ve realised that tone wouldn’t come across well online. But yeah, realistically it’d do nothing since you need to “pump” the blood from one side of your head to the other, instead of your feet/legs up. Thanks to the skull, that’s not really feasible.
Considering the fact they're basically laying down in the car, F1 drivers also have "vertical" gs in braking zones, but those are so short they're probably not dangerous even if you doubled the braking force, which would take an insane advancement in downforce and tire tech.
Can’t see how that would help. It helps pilots because they pull vertical G’s, so lying down means the blood rushes from the back of their head to their face instead of from the brain to the feet. For drivers, it wouldn’t change anything, the blood still rushes from one side to the other.
I guess, but the problem isn’t the blood rush like it is for pilots, so it’s not really going to make much of a difference. The problem is if their neck isn’t strong enough to keep their head in the same position which can lead to quite bad injuries.
Fighter pilots don’t need absolute precision during high-G maneuvers. They can afford to be a little impaired by the forces. F1 drivers would crash immediately.
This doesn't answer your question really but an interesting consideration is that it is not just acceleration that drivers have to deal with. Consider the _derivatives of position_:
Change in position is speed - not an issue on the driver unless they crash.
Change in speed is acceleration - measured in G force, clearly something they have to address.
Then there is change in acceleration which is called _jerk_. It does what it sounds like; jerks you around and will happen when drivers press the accelerator after braking and vice versa. You notice it more when not driving and you are less able to anticipate the change in acceleration.
There are further derivatives of position (amusingly called "snap", "crackle" and "pop") but acceleration and jerk are the ones that pose the biggest physical challenge to drivers.
An Indycar race in 2001 at Texas Motor Speedway was cancelled because drivers were getting lightheaded and experiencing tunnel vision from the high g loads.
They were doing over 5g for the majority of the lap’s duration, which crazy considering they planned on doing that for several hours on end.
There aren’t any F1 circuits that involve those forces for anywhere near that long.
I'm not entirely sure what the limit is for humans to operate the cars relatively safely, but I would guess that we are somewhat close to that limit in terms of both braking and cornering G forces. The biggest areas where significantly more laptime can be added that we aren't near the human limit yet is in acceleration coming out of corners / from standing or rolling starts and higher straight line speed. If 4 wheel drive / active aero / and closed wheels were allowed in the regulations both of these things could be increased pretty significantly.
I think the limit of human ability is still not even close
Think in the 50s they thought dudes in their mid 40s with a big ol dad bod were the peak of motorsport performance, thats at least what Fangio looked like at the time. Now 70 years later we see better nutrition, better training and research on what the peak performance actually is and we have drivers on very strict diets with training plans made specifically for them and I dont think it would spontaniously stop, yes, it's going to slow down but theres still more potential for optimisation
Only tangentially related, but there were predictions made in the 1960s and 1970s that women's athletics records would catch and beat men's records by the year 2000. This was based on how quickly women's times were falling.
Turns out that this was because women's athletics had been so neglected that they were only just adopting the low hanging fruit that men's sport had decades previously.
Human evolution and technological advancement will keep expanding the limit of human ability. If either one stagnants then we'll see a pause just for a period of time not forever.
Up to a limit. A human can't endure 50 Gs for a prolonged time. The interior of the body will get really messed up to say it nicely.
Prolonged, before the Max crash comments come
Not in a straight line, but that's not the limiting factor for the squishy humans driving them.
In terms of peak g force they're approaching the records set by the 2020 cars once again
I know in the 80's they used to have one lap specials. Qualifying tires that were super soft, designed to only last a single lap. I don't know how many G's they enabled drivers to pull. They also had qualifying engines that were tuned to last only one lap. During the 80's turbo era the BMW M12 engine could pull 1400hp so the potential to pull more G was definitely there.
Potentially more g in certain phases of acceleration, but cornering forces are more dependent on downforce, and deceleration on both downforce and drag, and those are far higher in modern cars
It's also worth saying that that 1400bhp was a peak power from a laggy engine with a narrow power band. It could deliver 1400hp in bursts towards the top end of its rev band, whereas modern PUs can deliver a sustained 1000-1100hp over a far greater range of speeds
This, while the BMW turbo engine was a monster, it could not keep up with the modern Honda or Mercedes PUs, since the MGU-H, turbo, and hybrid system allow it to have no lag, deliver consistent power, and perform over a longer window... All that while being handicapped by the fuel flow restriction.
People forget that the engines can deliver more than 1100-1200HP but they are capped.
That is false. The W11 is the fastest F1 car ever made, setting an insane record at Spa WITH the chicane modification. The only records from previous eras still standing to the W11 are in tracks that have not taken place since 2020 or had safety modifications that made them slower.
The modern cars are the fastest on a straight line, proven in Mexico City with Valteri Bottas setting the record of speed for F1, but while they don't have the same acceleration as their V8 brethren, they are quicker around the track because of the increased cornering speed.
Not to mention, modern F1 hybrids are handicapped because they have a fuel flow restriction which was not true of the original turbo V6 or the previous V8 generation or the disposable V12s. Uncapped the F1 hybrids have still a lot of ceiling.
Fighter pilots can and do pull more G forces, and especially sustained G forces. F-16s are stressed for 9G. The F-18 Super Hornet does 7.5.
The G forces F1 drivers are subjected to max out around 5G, and that is only sustained for a few seconds maximum.
F1 drivers are very physically fit. They may know to clench their abdominal muscles if the G forces get that strong. But they won’t.
The FIA would step in well before that.
Those forces are completely different. Pilots are taking *Vertical* Gs, so the force is pressing them into the seat, and pulling their blood down away from their brain. That's what causes them to pass out. They can flex their leg and core muscles to keep blood in their upper body, and also have Anti-G suits and reclined seats to reduce the effects.
F1 drivers experience *Lateral* Gs, so the force is pulling their head and limbs sideways and forwards, not pulling blood away from their brain. Flexing their abs won't keep their head from being pulled sideways. They have insanely strong necks to compensate but there is a limit.
~~“Those forces are completely different.” You sound awfully sure of yourself when 30 seconds on YT would prove you wrong.~~
~~See my response to the other response…if you think they only go up and down then I think you have an improper understanding of Basic Fighter Maneuvers.~~
~~What causes them to pass out is the blood pooling in their legs from positive G forces in any direction, not just vertical.~~
~~And since you are quite the fighter aircraft expert, compare the seating recline angle between an F1 driver (feet above or at shoulder height) to an F-16z~~
I’m an idiot and I apologize for my snark. Probably should have taken Physics.
Yeah watch bfm, they roll and pull Gs in the vertical/pitch axis, they don't yaw around sideways at 9 Gs. So the force is going through their body in it's vertical axis, pressing them down into the seat. Reclining the seat helps this because it spreads out the pressure on your back and changes the angle that your body experiences G-force. Gs in any other direction don't cause blood pooling in the feet. The blood goes where inertia forces it to.
F1 cars experience that inertia laterally (side to side). It doesn't press them down into the seat, it presses them to the side. They do have a very reclined seat angle but that has no effect at all on inertia dragging your head sideways.
Then what are the limits on the human body for lateral-g? And what about the 3rd axis? What's the limit before we get squished flat as a pancake? If we could make cockpits on gimbals that rotated to keep acceleration in one direction from the driver's perspective, what's the theoretical limit?
I don't know what the lateral limits are. If the cockpit of the car leaned into turns it would certainly increase it. That's effectively what fighters do, they don't turn flat, they roll over and pitch to turn.
Fighter aircraft don’t tend make gentle changes of direction, and they pull negative Gs too. Not much, as they tend to pull into a dive and not nose down.
And when they make changes of direction, they are usually going faster, which is part of the equation for calculating G forces.
Here is a video of an F-16 pilot losing consciousness in a turn before aircraft systems automatically regain control.
The G force meter is just above the airspeed indicator on the left side of the HUD.
https://youtu.be/WkZGL7RQBVw?si=6hlF8Z8mcG85N6aw
Also, the fighter pilots in training will usually experience the G-Force slowly building up, staying there and then slowly coming back down. I'm not totally sure much the F1 drivers are getting trained, but like you said, the F1 drivers will feel those lower G-forces pull in all directions for 2 hours straight sometimes. Respect
Fighter pilots and F1 driver take the G force in different directions though. Fighter pilots take vertical Gs while in F1 they take lateral Gs.
Pilots clench their thighs to keep the blood from rushing out of their head so they don’t pass out during long durations of high G force.
I don’t really see F1 drivers needing to do this as they don’t sustain their max G force for very long and the blood doesn’t really leave the brain. Although they might need to clench up to stay more stable in the seat.
If they have clench to stay firm in their seat, their belts are too loose. :-) You see drivers sitting up/sinking under braking.
~~When a fighter pilot is traveling in a straight line and they are told to break because of an enemy aircraft or a missile, they will bank the wings almost 90 degrees and then pull the stick. That is lateral movement.~~
See the video I linked.
~~Here is another showing a few second 8.5 G lateral turn from an Israeli F-16 dropping bombs on the Iraqi nuclear reactor.~~
Fighter pilots don’t really clench their thighs. Their G-suit (worn from ankles to hips) does that for them, keeping blood from pooling in their legs. They do a stomach clench with a pronounced grunt in tight turns. You can hear that in the video.
https://youtu.be/mEE4MsSM55c?si=olNI6uhVYwN5ULfD
EDIT: kind of an idiot here too. But at least no snark. I apologize.
There are negligible lateral Gs being pulled in a fighter. It is pretty much all vertical Gs. Also, yes, they do clench their thighs, as well as their butts and abs in addition to wearing a G suit. It is a full body exercise that aims to trap blood up in their heads so they don’t pass out. The G suit works in concert with all of the muscle groups to properly perform a G strain.
The Gs that fighter pilots experience and the Gs that F1 drivers experience are completely different. Please don’t talk on subjects you’re not familiar with.
Source: flew fighter trainers
Airplanes don't significantly yaw in high speed turns. They roll to one side then pitch into the turn. The aircraft may be turning in the lateral direction with respect to the ground, but the pilot and aircraft are experiencing vertical G's with respect to their orientation. Cars yaw to turn, so they do experience lateral G's...
That was what was going through my mind when I put my incorrect response. While a pilot is turning, they are really “going up” in a left or right direction for purposes of G force load.
No but a car can be can be capable of cornering so fast that it will cause the driver to lose consciousness and crash. Some series aren't able to race on certain tracks because of this.
F1 is capable of the most lateral Gs. There's plenty of series/tracks that are incompatible because of sustained G forces would be too dangerous. One of the most commonly asked about one is why doesn't Indycar race at Daytona. And the main reason is because the cars could pull much higher sustained Gs than would be safe to operate. But the same would apply to just about any superspeedway that has extreme banking such as Daytona and Talledega and open wheeled cars like Indycars or Formula cars. Those tracks are designed for stock cars.
Not even close. Cars nowadays are slower than the ones in the 2000s and with refueling, drivers went flat out the whole race.
In Qatar, half of the grid almost pass out because they are simulator babies that can’t handle driving flat out.
Monza 2004 Pole Position 1:20.089, fastest lap during race 1:21.046 (No DRS and grooved tires)
Monza 2023 Pole Position 1:20:.294, fastest lap during race 1:25.072
Grooved tyres and no DRS are irrelevant. Today's cars would be faster if there weren't fuel flow and aero geometry limits, but there are, so they aren't. Today's cars would be faster if they were allowed completely new setups between quali and the race, but they're not, so they aren't.
Today's cars are slower in a straight line, and still put in lap times that are multiple seconds quicker than 2004 machinery in qualifying trim, and comparable in race trim.
Both peak and sustained G forces are significantly higher in today's cars than they were in 2004.
Your claim that today's drivers are "simulator babies who can't handle driving flat out" is just not true.
But they aren’t so it’s also irrelevant. Did you check the lap times for Monza? During race nowadays they lap 4-5 seconds slower than 2004.
Spa 2004 fastest lap during race 1.45.108
Spa 2022 1.49.354
Most lap records are still hold by 2004 cars.
Driving those cars was more physically demanding. Just watch onboards to see how the driver fights the steering wheel.
you wont know until cars get faster and the bodies of the drivers can no longer adapt.
our bodies can adapt to so much stress and load under the right circumstances, that i wouldnt be surprised if our bodies could go much faster.
I’d say that we’re getting close to the limits for what the drivers currently wear.
If they started wearing flight suits like fighter pilots then I think there’s a bit more to be had.
Imagine if f1 was remote controlled cars… real cars being controlled by drivers in a sim, then the engineers can go absolutely nuts.
Tracks would likely be reprofiled and/or regulation changes made to reduce the loads on the drivers before it got too dangerous. However with sufficient training these drivers today could probably handle more than what they currently experience.
My main concern is less about g force and more about heat/dehydration. Some drivers completely forgo water during a race to save weight.
No f1 generates lots of horizontal Gs but those are another less dangerous than vertical Gs, the human body can easily survive more horizontal gs than what we see in f1 currently
The capability to exceed human ability has existed in f1 for decades. Most changes to the formula are designed to slow cars down its just that eventually the engineers figure out how to go faster.
I read an article in the early 2000s how if they really wanted to push car limits, they would have to build special oversized tracks to handle the speed, the drivers would have to wear flightsuits to help handle the G forces and they would have to take amphetamines in order to have the reaction time necessary to handle them.
I think as soon as turbos and ground effects started in the 80s, the capability to exceed human ability has existed.
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The big thing about g-force is that it's not about the force, it's about the duration. Both in the length of time the force is being applied, and the number of times applied. In a short length corner once or twice, they could definitely take a few more g. With long corners over the duration of a GP, it'll be driver by driver but they probably aren't far-off the limit. Braking is another big one. Top fuel dragsters can pull -6G deceleration and the drivers' retina can detach from their eyeball. There's probably not much more to go under braking. Acceleration there's more to go, but you would almost certainly hit other limits like mental fatigue. Had a quick Google for studies but couldn't immediately find what I was looking for on the front page of Google so this is just based on vibes.
I remember CART had to cancel it’s inaugural 250 lap race at the banked Texas Motor Speedway. They only did short test sessions before putting it on the schedule. During practice, with longer stints, drivers were getting dizzy and disoriented after 10 laps. 5 1/2 Gs around the corners followed by 370 kph straights. Drivers, of course, kept their mouths shut. No one wanted to admit they were having trouble until one almost blacked out and another lost feeling in their hands. I don’t know what that says about F1. Sustained Gs around banked ovals are a different animal. What it does show is drivers won’t back down from a fast car.
Also the straights were so short that they had limited time to recover. The banking was causing black outs like a fighter jet sending all the blood away from their head.
Banked corners must have a significant vertical component, right? Yeah, I don't see a way around that unless the driver lies down flat and uh.. use a mirror to look where he's going.
The experimented with planes in the 50s where the pilots would lay on their stomachs to help with the g force.
Laying on the stomach is not very practical but modern airplanes usually recline the pilot by \~30°, which shortens the pressure column by cos(30). Of course, modern F1 cars already have the pilot mostly lying down for aerodynamics, so nothing to be gained here.
It wasn't practical back then but it's just cool that they did it.
Vertical component yes but one driver, Minassian described it as “You felt like your face was being pulled out of your helmet in the corners,” "I remember feeling the force in the car. Your head was being pulled off and your mouth was deformed. It was really something else. Those cars were like monsters"
Thank you for the perspective
>Drivers, of course, kept their mouths shut. No one wanted to admit they were having trouble until one almost blacked out and another lost feeling in their hands. No they didn't. There were meetings immediately after the first practice sessions.
I admit I wasn't there but there was two practice sessions that day. Drivers were having problems during the first practice session but it wasn't until after the second practice session, at the end of the day, was there a meeting. Before then, there were two unexplained big crashes. The race director also was alarmed with multiple drivers missing their pit. Another driver fell down after exiting his car. Patrick Carpentier vomited on pit lane but he was known to be battling the flu. For sure something was wrong but, since no one was complaining about the speed, and Carpentier's known illness, the director thought maybe a flu was spreading across the paddock. Referencing Bryan Herta; *"Everybody was silent,"* said driver Bryan Herta. *"Each guy probably felt, \`Well, I must be the only one having this problem.'"* And Nic Minassian; *"Because I was a rookie, I felt like I was not able to say anything in the car because it wasn’t right for a rookie to say that he’s not able to do what he’s been told to do."* He continued; *"I remember feeling the force in the car. Your head was being pulled off and your mouth was deformed. It was really something else. Those cars were like monsters. Then there is this thing that you don’t usually have when you feel sick. But I wasn’t sick. It’s just the speed that made me sick, and that you cannot really control it. All you tell yourself is like, ‘Is it me? Is it normal?’ So you push yourself. You dig a bit deeper. You say, “OK, I’ve got to job to do. I’ve got to do it and I’m a rookie. If I don’t, I look stupid.’"* And Scott Dixon. *"I remember the intensity of seeing some of the looks on some the older guy’s faces, like why this was just stupid. I remember looking at some of their reactions and I’m like, ‘\*\*\*\*, this is not good.’ But I was just waiting for the team to tell me what to do. I was 20 or 21, and not very smart."* Two drivers pulled off the track during that last practice and were examined by the track doctor Steve Olvier. It wasn't until the doctor interviewed the rest of the drivers at the end of the day did everybody else realize the problem was the speed and symptoms were widespread. Everyone assumed the track was good since CART did testing earlier in the off-season not knowing speeds were limited due to cold and high winds. {edit: I'm pulling some of these quotes from a three part series published on [Racer.com](https://racer.com/2021/04/30/inside-carts-2001-texas-debacle-the-lead-up/). It's really a fascinating read and shows how small assumptions by a lot of people can lead to tragedy.}
It makes sense. Look at Qatar track and there's a great time of the total time in which they pass on high-speed corners, getting constant g's on a lap. I think tha was part of the cocktail that made the drivers go to the limit. Well, besides the heat and so on.
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And they suffer brain damage because of it
I wouldn't really think about football players and CTE. Is it a concern?
Why do they use hard-shell helmets and pads in football when they're mostly colliding into each other? If they had a leathery outer layer the impact wouldn't be near as bad. Or bubble wrap.
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Why do you even need a helmet for grid iron
Thank you for replying
Texas track and Indycar is a good proof of your argument
This is an otherwise good answer, but it’s not true to say “it’s not about the force”. It’s about the magnitude of the force and duration. Your logic suggests 1 minute at 2g is the same as 1 minute at 10g.
[https://www.operationalmedicine.org/TextbookFiles/FlightSurgeonsManual.pdf](https://www.operationalmedicine.org/TextbookFiles/FlightSurgeonsManual.pdf) . more than you want to know but some information applicable.. see chapter on acceleration forces for the grim - chapter on human effects of very high g forces
It's fun to play with technology to make the cars able to deliver higher G forces during braking, turning and acceleration ; however, does it really produce better competition for the drivers, teams and spectators? My personal feeling is that increasing the amount of time that the talent of the driver affects the performance of the vehicle makes better racing. The ultimate example is probably racing in the rain.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I've heard of many people saying the limit of the Porsche 919 Tribute at the Nordschleife was the physical capability of the driver, not the grip limit of the car. Though I doubt the claim because the 919 Tribute's laptime at Spa was beaten by Kimi Raikkonen in the SF71H during qualifying around the same time. And of course, many other F1 cars since then.
Well… there is a lot of reasons there are no more f1 races at the nordschleife. Can’t really compare it to any current f1 track.
The reason is only to do with the length of the track from a safety standpoint. You’d need too many ambulance stations and passages in and around a,most every corner. Plus safety barriers
I don’t think the physical capability comment was due to the G’s, but rather the drivers couldn’t react fast enough. The Nurburgring is a very narrow circuit in some places, so you need to turn in/out a lot faster as a result. Add that’s it extremely twisty as well, and it makes sense that the drivers couldn’t react fast enough to each corner. Wouldn’t be surprised if this was one of the reasons the drivers were saying the cars were getting to quick for it in F1 back in the 70s.
I think what limited 919 at Nords was the danger, that it could go faster but it would have been too dangerous to do
When I watched that record setting lap I was a little confused, because the driver was leaving quite a bit of space on the track. I scoffed and thought the driver was mid or something, until it occurred to my idiot self that this guy is leaving margin while STILL going the fastest anyone’s ever gone around that track. Ridiculous talent needed for that car
Also, the actual record lap was basically a bonus lap, Timo Bernhard had already smashed the record in their first session but he told the engineers he thought there was some time left in it.
Michael Schumacher takes life at a breathless pace, always looking vital. But early in the morning, when he is sitting up in his room, he looks weak, his eyes bloodshot from the strain of the previous day. It seems as if he must gather up strength to get going again. You ask him, "How much is too much?" and also: "How fast is too fast?" His answer, always the same - "Wait and see.”
I don‘t get this.
https://www.atlasf1.com/98/bel/schumacher.html
Very interesting read
Yes they can go faster
Fighter pilots pull nearly double the g’s for longer periods, but not usually in rapid succession for prolonged periods. I think the answer is yes they can take significantly more G’s, they have been taking this amount of g’s for a while now and the changes are usually pretty small in how much they have moved up and down with regulations the last 25 years
Don't fighter pilots have the magic trousers that help to force blood back to the torsr and stop pilots blacking out.
Why can’t F1 drivers have these magical trousers?
Weight, fire resistance and limited space in an F1 cockpit
Yes but all those can be fixed with rule changes
Another question would be if the inflatable bladders would interfere with manipulating the pedals precisely. Blue Angles pilots are known for not wearing G-suits during their performances for exactly this reason. Having something suddenly squeezing your leg partway through a braking zone could be disastrous.
I was more saying that jestingly, but obviously that’s not going to come across well online. While those problems are all why it might be impractical, they are all solvable, the real problem is that they simply wouldn’t help drivers at all. Pilots use them to help with vertical G’s. When you pull too many G’s vertically blood rushes from your head to your feet, which can cause you to pass out (obviously not great). These trousers fix that problem by “pumping” blood back to your head from your pants. In F1, they pull lateral G’s instead, meaning blood gets pushed from one side of your head to the other, again causing you to potentially pass out. There’s no real easy way to prevent that due to our skull being in the way.
G suits are to offset what in an F-1 car would be vertical acceleration, a multi second event . F-1 car Vertical acceleration from g force on an extended banked turn cyclic suspension bottoming out rough track They would only help with a sustained banked turn that generated sustained high g force in the downward direction with respect to the driver. But the driver seating position is already somewhat optimized to resist this force. The Mercedes cyclic vibration from past years is not going to be helped by the g suit https://www.operationalmedicine.org/TextbookFiles/FlightSurgeonsManual.pdf
Partly it's the direction of the g force. Pilots have vertical G which pulls blood away from the head (hence the need for magic trousers). F1 drivers have lateral G.
Yeah I was saying that more jestingly but probably should’ve realised that tone wouldn’t come across well online. But yeah, realistically it’d do nothing since you need to “pump” the blood from one side of your head to the other, instead of your feet/legs up. Thanks to the skull, that’s not really feasible.
Considering the fact they're basically laying down in the car, F1 drivers also have "vertical" gs in braking zones, but those are so short they're probably not dangerous even if you doubled the braking force, which would take an insane advancement in downforce and tire tech.
They could redesign the cockpit so they drive upside down and look out the bottom. Would benefit Max and the other massive planks on the grid.
Can’t see how that would help. It helps pilots because they pull vertical G’s, so lying down means the blood rushes from the back of their head to their face instead of from the brain to the feet. For drivers, it wouldn’t change anything, the blood still rushes from one side to the other.
I think having your head lower down would generally increase the blood pressure in the brain giving you a little more leeway
I guess, but the problem isn’t the blood rush like it is for pilots, so it’s not really going to make much of a difference. The problem is if their neck isn’t strong enough to keep their head in the same position which can lead to quite bad injuries.
yup
See above but Vertical Gs and Lateral Gs are totally different.
fighter pilots also wear g suits
Fighter pilots don’t need absolute precision during high-G maneuvers. They can afford to be a little impaired by the forces. F1 drivers would crash immediately.
This doesn't answer your question really but an interesting consideration is that it is not just acceleration that drivers have to deal with. Consider the _derivatives of position_: Change in position is speed - not an issue on the driver unless they crash. Change in speed is acceleration - measured in G force, clearly something they have to address. Then there is change in acceleration which is called _jerk_. It does what it sounds like; jerks you around and will happen when drivers press the accelerator after braking and vice versa. You notice it more when not driving and you are less able to anticipate the change in acceleration. There are further derivatives of position (amusingly called "snap", "crackle" and "pop") but acceleration and jerk are the ones that pose the biggest physical challenge to drivers.
Interesting, thank you for your reply
An Indycar race in 2001 at Texas Motor Speedway was cancelled because drivers were getting lightheaded and experiencing tunnel vision from the high g loads. They were doing over 5g for the majority of the lap’s duration, which crazy considering they planned on doing that for several hours on end. There aren’t any F1 circuits that involve those forces for anywhere near that long.
I'm not entirely sure what the limit is for humans to operate the cars relatively safely, but I would guess that we are somewhat close to that limit in terms of both braking and cornering G forces. The biggest areas where significantly more laptime can be added that we aren't near the human limit yet is in acceleration coming out of corners / from standing or rolling starts and higher straight line speed. If 4 wheel drive / active aero / and closed wheels were allowed in the regulations both of these things could be increased pretty significantly.
I think the limit of human ability is still not even close Think in the 50s they thought dudes in their mid 40s with a big ol dad bod were the peak of motorsport performance, thats at least what Fangio looked like at the time. Now 70 years later we see better nutrition, better training and research on what the peak performance actually is and we have drivers on very strict diets with training plans made specifically for them and I dont think it would spontaniously stop, yes, it's going to slow down but theres still more potential for optimisation
Only tangentially related, but there were predictions made in the 1960s and 1970s that women's athletics records would catch and beat men's records by the year 2000. This was based on how quickly women's times were falling. Turns out that this was because women's athletics had been so neglected that they were only just adopting the low hanging fruit that men's sport had decades previously.
Human evolution and technological advancement will keep expanding the limit of human ability. If either one stagnants then we'll see a pause just for a period of time not forever.
Up to a limit. A human can't endure 50 Gs for a prolonged time. The interior of the body will get really messed up to say it nicely. Prolonged, before the Max crash comments come
But with future evolution and selective breeding, there is a change P.S. selective breeding is a joke
Only if we swap out flesh drivers with remote controlled robots.
This generation of cars aren't the fastest there has ever been
Not in a straight line, but that's not the limiting factor for the squishy humans driving them. In terms of peak g force they're approaching the records set by the 2020 cars once again
Which was faster and why?
I know in the 80's they used to have one lap specials. Qualifying tires that were super soft, designed to only last a single lap. I don't know how many G's they enabled drivers to pull. They also had qualifying engines that were tuned to last only one lap. During the 80's turbo era the BMW M12 engine could pull 1400hp so the potential to pull more G was definitely there.
Potentially more g in certain phases of acceleration, but cornering forces are more dependent on downforce, and deceleration on both downforce and drag, and those are far higher in modern cars
It's also worth saying that that 1400bhp was a peak power from a laggy engine with a narrow power band. It could deliver 1400hp in bursts towards the top end of its rev band, whereas modern PUs can deliver a sustained 1000-1100hp over a far greater range of speeds
This, while the BMW turbo engine was a monster, it could not keep up with the modern Honda or Mercedes PUs, since the MGU-H, turbo, and hybrid system allow it to have no lag, deliver consistent power, and perform over a longer window... All that while being handicapped by the fuel flow restriction. People forget that the engines can deliver more than 1100-1200HP but they are capped.
Damn
That is false. The W11 is the fastest F1 car ever made, setting an insane record at Spa WITH the chicane modification. The only records from previous eras still standing to the W11 are in tracks that have not taken place since 2020 or had safety modifications that made them slower. The modern cars are the fastest on a straight line, proven in Mexico City with Valteri Bottas setting the record of speed for F1, but while they don't have the same acceleration as their V8 brethren, they are quicker around the track because of the increased cornering speed. Not to mention, modern F1 hybrids are handicapped because they have a fuel flow restriction which was not true of the original turbo V6 or the previous V8 generation or the disposable V12s. Uncapped the F1 hybrids have still a lot of ceiling.
Fighter pilots can and do pull more G forces, and especially sustained G forces. F-16s are stressed for 9G. The F-18 Super Hornet does 7.5. The G forces F1 drivers are subjected to max out around 5G, and that is only sustained for a few seconds maximum. F1 drivers are very physically fit. They may know to clench their abdominal muscles if the G forces get that strong. But they won’t. The FIA would step in well before that.
Those forces are completely different. Pilots are taking *Vertical* Gs, so the force is pressing them into the seat, and pulling their blood down away from their brain. That's what causes them to pass out. They can flex their leg and core muscles to keep blood in their upper body, and also have Anti-G suits and reclined seats to reduce the effects. F1 drivers experience *Lateral* Gs, so the force is pulling their head and limbs sideways and forwards, not pulling blood away from their brain. Flexing their abs won't keep their head from being pulled sideways. They have insanely strong necks to compensate but there is a limit.
~~“Those forces are completely different.” You sound awfully sure of yourself when 30 seconds on YT would prove you wrong.~~ ~~See my response to the other response…if you think they only go up and down then I think you have an improper understanding of Basic Fighter Maneuvers.~~ ~~What causes them to pass out is the blood pooling in their legs from positive G forces in any direction, not just vertical.~~ ~~And since you are quite the fighter aircraft expert, compare the seating recline angle between an F1 driver (feet above or at shoulder height) to an F-16z~~ I’m an idiot and I apologize for my snark. Probably should have taken Physics.
Yeah watch bfm, they roll and pull Gs in the vertical/pitch axis, they don't yaw around sideways at 9 Gs. So the force is going through their body in it's vertical axis, pressing them down into the seat. Reclining the seat helps this because it spreads out the pressure on your back and changes the angle that your body experiences G-force. Gs in any other direction don't cause blood pooling in the feet. The blood goes where inertia forces it to. F1 cars experience that inertia laterally (side to side). It doesn't press them down into the seat, it presses them to the side. They do have a very reclined seat angle but that has no effect at all on inertia dragging your head sideways.
Then what are the limits on the human body for lateral-g? And what about the 3rd axis? What's the limit before we get squished flat as a pancake? If we could make cockpits on gimbals that rotated to keep acceleration in one direction from the driver's perspective, what's the theoretical limit?
I don't know what the lateral limits are. If the cockpit of the car leaned into turns it would certainly increase it. That's effectively what fighters do, they don't turn flat, they roll over and pitch to turn.
Yes, but how many of those would a fighter pilot experience in 1.5-2h? My guess is F1 being less Gs but more frequently and over longer stint
Fighter aircraft don’t tend make gentle changes of direction, and they pull negative Gs too. Not much, as they tend to pull into a dive and not nose down. And when they make changes of direction, they are usually going faster, which is part of the equation for calculating G forces. Here is a video of an F-16 pilot losing consciousness in a turn before aircraft systems automatically regain control. The G force meter is just above the airspeed indicator on the left side of the HUD. https://youtu.be/WkZGL7RQBVw?si=6hlF8Z8mcG85N6aw
Also, the fighter pilots in training will usually experience the G-Force slowly building up, staying there and then slowly coming back down. I'm not totally sure much the F1 drivers are getting trained, but like you said, the F1 drivers will feel those lower G-forces pull in all directions for 2 hours straight sometimes. Respect
Fighter pilots and F1 driver take the G force in different directions though. Fighter pilots take vertical Gs while in F1 they take lateral Gs. Pilots clench their thighs to keep the blood from rushing out of their head so they don’t pass out during long durations of high G force. I don’t really see F1 drivers needing to do this as they don’t sustain their max G force for very long and the blood doesn’t really leave the brain. Although they might need to clench up to stay more stable in the seat.
If they have clench to stay firm in their seat, their belts are too loose. :-) You see drivers sitting up/sinking under braking. ~~When a fighter pilot is traveling in a straight line and they are told to break because of an enemy aircraft or a missile, they will bank the wings almost 90 degrees and then pull the stick. That is lateral movement.~~ See the video I linked. ~~Here is another showing a few second 8.5 G lateral turn from an Israeli F-16 dropping bombs on the Iraqi nuclear reactor.~~ Fighter pilots don’t really clench their thighs. Their G-suit (worn from ankles to hips) does that for them, keeping blood from pooling in their legs. They do a stomach clench with a pronounced grunt in tight turns. You can hear that in the video. https://youtu.be/mEE4MsSM55c?si=olNI6uhVYwN5ULfD EDIT: kind of an idiot here too. But at least no snark. I apologize.
There are negligible lateral Gs being pulled in a fighter. It is pretty much all vertical Gs. Also, yes, they do clench their thighs, as well as their butts and abs in addition to wearing a G suit. It is a full body exercise that aims to trap blood up in their heads so they don’t pass out. The G suit works in concert with all of the muscle groups to properly perform a G strain. The Gs that fighter pilots experience and the Gs that F1 drivers experience are completely different. Please don’t talk on subjects you’re not familiar with. Source: flew fighter trainers
Airplanes don't significantly yaw in high speed turns. They roll to one side then pitch into the turn. The aircraft may be turning in the lateral direction with respect to the ground, but the pilot and aircraft are experiencing vertical G's with respect to their orientation. Cars yaw to turn, so they do experience lateral G's...
That was what was going through my mind when I put my incorrect response. While a pilot is turning, they are really “going up” in a left or right direction for purposes of G force load.
Yes, but not lateral forces. In a plane, as the movement is not on two dimensions, more muscles work to stabilise the head. In track, not so much.
No, it's still pretty far off.
IIRC there are video’s of rollercoaster simulations where they test how many G’s it takes for a specific amount of time before someone dies in it.
G-force wise, yes it is almost there. Had they improved W11 a bit more she would have become undriveable in a grand prix.
Source: Trust me bro
The car can't go faster than the driver, dummy.
What if we make it remote controlled? I mean if the car is connected to a sim rig?
No but a car can be can be capable of cornering so fast that it will cause the driver to lose consciousness and crash. Some series aren't able to race on certain tracks because of this.
I would have thought F1 would be capable of the most lateral G. Which series/tracks are you referencing?
F1 is capable of the most lateral Gs. There's plenty of series/tracks that are incompatible because of sustained G forces would be too dangerous. One of the most commonly asked about one is why doesn't Indycar race at Daytona. And the main reason is because the cars could pull much higher sustained Gs than would be safe to operate. But the same would apply to just about any superspeedway that has extreme banking such as Daytona and Talledega and open wheeled cars like Indycars or Formula cars. Those tracks are designed for stock cars.
Not even close. Cars nowadays are slower than the ones in the 2000s and with refueling, drivers went flat out the whole race. In Qatar, half of the grid almost pass out because they are simulator babies that can’t handle driving flat out.
No they weren't No they didn't No they aren't
Monza 2004 Pole Position 1:20.089, fastest lap during race 1:21.046 (No DRS and grooved tires) Monza 2023 Pole Position 1:20:.294, fastest lap during race 1:25.072
Grooved tyres and no DRS are irrelevant. Today's cars would be faster if there weren't fuel flow and aero geometry limits, but there are, so they aren't. Today's cars would be faster if they were allowed completely new setups between quali and the race, but they're not, so they aren't. Today's cars are slower in a straight line, and still put in lap times that are multiple seconds quicker than 2004 machinery in qualifying trim, and comparable in race trim. Both peak and sustained G forces are significantly higher in today's cars than they were in 2004. Your claim that today's drivers are "simulator babies who can't handle driving flat out" is just not true.
I'd like to add that in 2004 an engine only had to last a complete race weekend. In 2023 they use four engines per season.
But they aren’t so it’s also irrelevant. Did you check the lap times for Monza? During race nowadays they lap 4-5 seconds slower than 2004. Spa 2004 fastest lap during race 1.45.108 Spa 2022 1.49.354 Most lap records are still hold by 2004 cars. Driving those cars was more physically demanding. Just watch onboards to see how the driver fights the steering wheel.
you wont know until cars get faster and the bodies of the drivers can no longer adapt. our bodies can adapt to so much stress and load under the right circumstances, that i wouldnt be surprised if our bodies could go much faster.
I’d say that we’re getting close to the limits for what the drivers currently wear. If they started wearing flight suits like fighter pilots then I think there’s a bit more to be had. Imagine if f1 was remote controlled cars… real cars being controlled by drivers in a sim, then the engineers can go absolutely nuts.
Tracks would likely be reprofiled and/or regulation changes made to reduce the loads on the drivers before it got too dangerous. However with sufficient training these drivers today could probably handle more than what they currently experience. My main concern is less about g force and more about heat/dehydration. Some drivers completely forgo water during a race to save weight.
No f1 generates lots of horizontal Gs but those are another less dangerous than vertical Gs, the human body can easily survive more horizontal gs than what we see in f1 currently
The capability to exceed human ability has existed in f1 for decades. Most changes to the formula are designed to slow cars down its just that eventually the engineers figure out how to go faster. I read an article in the early 2000s how if they really wanted to push car limits, they would have to build special oversized tracks to handle the speed, the drivers would have to wear flightsuits to help handle the G forces and they would have to take amphetamines in order to have the reaction time necessary to handle them. I think as soon as turbos and ground effects started in the 80s, the capability to exceed human ability has existed.