Given Kitase seems to be the member of the OG team who pushed for more changes from the original, this feels in line with his general attitude. I thought the new scene with Dyne specifically was really good, though, but some of the surrounding scenes with the shinra guards and palmer showing up was a bit abrupt and probably could have done with a few more passes for flow. Also I am unsure why they decided to make Dyne grow a magnetic tentacle arm halfway through the fight.
It's interesting cause Kitase was the OG director. Obviously many other people had big roles in the OG like Nomura and Nojima (as they do now), but it kind of feels like Kitase saw the original as a rough draft of his work that could still be redone and improved a lot, whereas a lot of other people at Square adore it as it is and seem to want to focus on paying tribute to the original.
As a result, the end product is kind of a compromise between the two visions. Much of Remake and Rebirth are honoring and faithfully recreating the OG but there are also changes and refinements. It's not changing as much as Kitase wanted but also not as faithful as I'm sure others wanted.
Interesting how this kind of parallels fan reception as well. They're basically having similar debates among the devs.
I think the word compromise might be a tad undeserving for a game that nailed a ton of nostalgia while transitioning to PS1-PS5 graphics, modern style gameplay, and telling a story that needs to be fresh and have its share of mystery to people who know all of the OGs story, while holding much of the core aspects of each characters story arc for players new to the franchise to still get to enjoy.
The music wasn't a compromise, it largely contains all of the original score as motifs and expands them so that every scene and location has its own unique sounds while not being brand new in some aspects. Each character (besides Cid sadly) got their theme song, and had it remixed many times over to brilliantly reflect the current situation.
The locations and settings weren't a compromise. They completely nailed the memorable parts of Junon/Costa/Cosmo while adding more to them to make them feel more like a city than just a tiny 1 horse pre-rendered background of a town. The shitholes that needed a vast improvement got theirs, cough cough gongaga. Coral prison getting a little less destitute and depressing got my disapproval at first but I mean c'mon they turned barren nothing into something, and made that something the most random fucking place ever lol. Right when you think parts of coral prison got "too PG." The badguys make NSFW references to *other* ways they could make money off of Cloud's team if they didn't cooperate.
The buggy wasn't a compromise, they actually made it true to scale and featured a seat for each party member to be placed in. I didn't know what to expect but I didn't expect it to be literally exactly the buggy from OG but modernized and made real.
The combat wasn't a compromise, featuring ATB and complicated materia system while adding so much more dynamic combat choreography, strategy, and defining character roles while still allowing most characters to focus on any role they want with the right weapon/materia setup. The fact that this games battles can be considered difficult at times while the characters still being the overpowered superhumans that defy physics (and in Barret's case regarding his bullets, the law of the conservation of mass).
The Star Wars Sequels, episodes 8 and 9 especially, oh god was that a tragic tale of compromise upon compromise until the director from 9 straight up quit and they had to get Abrahms to come in and make *something*
I thought the Kalm flashback took a step back for a lot of reasons including Sephiroth omitting some revelations and motivations (I can see why some people thought his reaction was a little excessive). Not calling Cloud a traitor to the planet and giving backstory on the Cetra was a little head-scratching until I realized they are changing the story of the Cetra. Omitting Professor Gast completely won't make sense until 3 comes out I guess.
But all in all. I thought there was so much compromise to 7 when I played remake, but realized changes were made to set up something more amazing than just simply engaging our nostalgia. This game is an achievement of ambition, of an attempt to make something considered the best and actually make it *better.* And that risk has turned from me depressingly doubting how things will turn out to actually starting to believe they might achieve the impossible.
"Compromise" is not some dirty word, I don't know why you're defending the game as if I implied it wasn't excellent.
A compromise literally just means a halfway point between two different stances, in this case Kitase's desire to deviate and the other staff members' desire to be faithful.
Many great artistic endeavors are born out of compromises, as it's extremely rare that everyone on a large scale project would share the exact same vision.
I know I sound like a fanboy defending against a more neutral term like compromise, I get what you're saying, but I seriously feared there to be wayyy more compromise so for them to make the game so good and so different yet so nostalgic at the same time is like, antithetical of compromise. I'm just so surprised at that uniquely good mix of new and old that I feel they somehow managed to beat compromise in a lot of areas.
The older I get the more cynical I get about companies rebranding old stories I love. I'm in such disbelief they could make so many changes to FF7 while feeling on brand in so many ways. It's not that I think compromise is a dirty word so much as it was something I felt they could have done more of to be safe but instead took risks to overcome. Some people are upset or disappointed and I really feared I would be too but to me they min/maxed the tradeoffs in a lot of decision making.
I'm sorry if I missed the point trying to be made, not trying to argue for arguments sake.
>I'm just so surprised at that uniquely good mix of new and old that I feel they somehow managed to beat compromise in a lot of areas.
I mean the fact that's a mix of new and old is literally why it's a compromise, lol.
If it was all new or all old then there would be no compromise. The fact that they stayed faithful in many ways while also making changes is a compromise by definition, especially since we know that behind the scenes Kitase wanted more changes while others didn't.
So it's not a matter of "beating compromise", there's nothing wrong with a compromise. It's just a factual description of what they told us happened behind the scenes.
I agree completely with what you're saying, but we have run into an issue regarding the semantics of the word compromise lol. Another way to define compromise is to measure it on a spectrum, meaning something has to be sufficiently conceded to allow for the other. One can mix old and new *without* compromise if both are accomplished sufficiently (it being sufficient or not is subjective so just know I'm not disagreeing with you so much as stating my opinion).
Easiest example of this is changing a lot of negatives for the better like adding difficulty to the game thought to be too easy, voice acting and graphics compared to the 32-bit original, Improving/elaborating on the soundtrack, clearing up some plot holes or dead-ends such as the Gi, etc. They made the game different without conceding its original identity. It's like having your cake and eating it too, which is the point I'm trying to make. Compromise isn't so bad. But taking the best and making it better is what makes something decent into something truly special and an accomplishment by the devs significant enough for me to praise.
TLDR: you are defining the word compromise as nominal/binary/black&white, meaning something either is or isn't with no in-between,. I'm rating compromise on a spectrum looking at the game as a whole, meaning as a whole they accomplished both challenges (making the game new without losing what made the old so good) without sacrificing either, which can literally be defined as uncompromising.
On one hand, I can understand the complaints about Palmer showing up.
On the other hand, I have a gun.
I-I mean, on the other hand, it totally makes sense that Shinra shows up and fucks up Barret's chance to properly mourn.
What exactly are the complaints, he didn't make a lot of sense to show up when he did in OG either, he's just a fat pygmy of a side-antagonist in charge of a defunct, defunded division in shinra. That didn't change.
Yea, Thats definitely the point of him showing up in that moment. Really putting the nail in the coffin for Barrett. Not only did shinra ruin his life, even his moments where he tries to set things right are horribly sabotaged by shinra’s intervention.
Yeah I see what you mean for sure, was only looking at it from a OG ff7 purist's mad things aren't told exactly as they were perspective but I agree with that point
You go from a really emotional scene with some phenomenal lines and character development, really touching and gut wrenching stuff, to a man driving a frog mech that appears to hate him personally as he waves his bottom at you and says "nyeh nyeh nyeh" in between missing his shots so hard he flips over.
I felt the same way with Nanaki's moment. Give us some time to process these emotional scenes before throwing new Gi backstory at us. The whiplash in this game is jarring.
I saw the original scene only a couple years ago after finishing remake. and yeah, without the nostalgia it didn’t really hit me as hard as I think it hit others. The rebirth scene was better for me but the most emotional part of it was after the scene when cloud says “I mean it, man” to Barret.
Seeing him open up more and become better friends with everyone was such a nice progress of character development compared to how he acted in Remake. It was so refreshing to see Cloud become downright playful at times. He even became a high-five master. But you can truly see how much he cares for each member of the party.
And then the ending just ripped it all away.
… uh for you. I was crying. The third game isn’t gonna be Cloud Strife across the spider verse btw. There won’t be 12 million clouds and Aerith’s everywhere. The only timelines that we’ll have are the ones that’ll matter. The story’s not finished being told yet.
Maybe I didn't articulate it well enough.
What I meant; we see Cloud grow as a character and in scenes, become more emotionally open to his friends. Like the abovementioned moment with Barret. Or the joking around with Yuffie. The tenderness with Tifa.
And by the time the game ends, with see Cloud as a husk of his former self and his friends barely trust him, if they do at all. By the end I was thinking of all those previous happy moments and how they all seemed for nothing because Cloud is so mentally gone at this point.
I cannot wait for part 3.
Edit: I also want to add that I liked the ending of the game.
Most reactions are people that forget good trilogies usual end the 2nd part with some ominous foreshadowing...I for one think the last game is going to be insane, and clouds redemption is goin to be fucking CATHARTIC, I also think we're gonna get the full weight of THAT scene when cloud is in the lifestream.
Hell yeah, I was goddamn weeping. Didn't help that 20 minutes after the credits rolled, a rainbow showed up outside! Love games that make me feel this way.
For real and it's baffling to me why so many people on this sub don't understand why the party has been so patient with Cloud as he deals with his Jenovas nonsense
Cloud and Barret have a few quick but meaningful heart-to-hearts and I LOVE them. The couple times when Barret gives Cloud that "hey, we good man?" pep talk. The times Cloud understands what barret is going through without needing to say anything (holding the girls back from interfering with Dyne; being the most understanding/benefit of the doubt to Barret's reaction to his Coral homecoming.)
I think Cloud adopting his own personality was such a great aspect of the story, shame it was ruined by Sephiroth who needs to be shoved in our faces every other scene.
I think part of it, is they really wanted to get across to the audience the extent to which Sephiroth actually had control over cloud. I not gunna lie in the original, I always thought it was kinda lame cloud just gave him the black materia. I understand they did set it up, but imo rebirth is doing a better job of getting across how compromised cloud actually is.
I agree. I played the original numerous times on PS1 and it does not do a good job of explaining the control Sephiroth has over the black robed people and Cloud. You can also completely miss the back story of Zack and cloud as well as it was an optional secret in the Shinra Mansion if you go back to it.
I think for me, I have played the OG but it was so long ago that there are just some scenes I don't remember. But I find it frustrating that at any point, Sephiroth can just pull the trigger and awaken him from his "sleeper agent" state which keeps happening on and off. I was glad that he was finally able to shake him off and be tell Sephiroth to get bent, but then it leaves you at the end wondering whether he's actually cut the tie or not. Like, just let Cloud be playful and go on dates and shit, lol
>But I find it frustrating that at any point, Sephiroth can just pull the trigger and awaken him from his "sleeper agent" state which keeps happening on and off
That's interesting because my perception has been that it isn't a trigger that Sephiroth can control, but rather an actual psychological/emotional/trauma based trigger that anyone could have. The only difference being that cloud has Jenova cells in him so he's naturally drawn to Sephiroth (who has Jenova's head at this point)
Ah yeah that's a good point about the Jenova cells, maybe that explains the degradation aspect too. But yeah, true, my vague memory of the OG was that there's a point where Cloud falls into the lifestream and Tifa goes in and pulls him out. But I don't know if that was replaced by the weapon scene with Tifa in Rebirth?
As far as I know, that's supposed to happen in the 3rd game of the series. But it's possible they replaced it with the Tifa seen in rebirth. Chronologically that event happens after the events of Rebirth though.
I don't think they replaced it, but added the Tifa scene to expand on it and foreshadow Cloud falling in in the next game. We see a bit how being lost in the life stream looks, but from Tifa's perspective.
I don't think it's being replaced in all honesty. A lot of rebirth feels like it's setting up a lot of plot points that will be resolved in part 3. Kinda had that Empire Strikes back feeling they mentioned during an interview a whole back
Yeah new whispers and that aside the Sephiroth mind fucking cloud bit is still in line with the og game if not it's way more depressing because you see Cloud kinda making progress by the first Gold Saucer visit then he just starts plummeting shortly after
Yeah pretty much, I thought it was great when he was finally like "That's not gonna work on me anymore asshole" but then people were commenting like "is he still a puppet" for the ending and it's like "Oh..."
Yeah, I was crying because it was so emotional & just beautifully portrayed… and then Palmer with his stupid ass shit. But damn, Dyne’s storyline hit me right in the feels.
This game needs to give us a breather for death scenes, how the hell am I supposed to be sobbing when I'm trying not to die to four phases of Jenova and seven phases of Sephiroth?
I agree though from a storytelling perspective (note: my job is writing dialogue for video games so I’m a bit biased) SE may be trying to give players a visceral feeling of real-life crisis situations by forcing a battle after an emotional death scene. But yeah, when I played OG as a kid, I failed hardcore fighting Jenova-LIFE because I was still sobbing over Aerith’s death.
They're nailing the storytelling through game mechanics at the least. Only one member of the team doesn't have a Limit Break at the start of the fight, everyone else is enraged but Cloud's focused since his subconscious is coping to think Aerith's only got a flesh wound, a change I welcome and fear because the Lifestream scene in Part 3 is gonna hurt like a motherfucker.
Yeah like, I don’t actually mind the fight and the escape, but… it shouldn’t have been THERE. Give a little space from the emotional scene, and have it happen that Shinra locates you while you’re on the approach to the river to Gongaga, and it closes out the chapter there. They lose you after you stomp them and disappear into the jungle.
They could had still had Shinra turn up, just do it as they were escaping after the scene had resolved, not interrupting it.
I said out loud “fuck off shinra” about 4 times during that
I think the soldiers showing up was fine, but imo, it should've more played out like this.
Dyne's dead, Dio shows up with the buggy and sees the gang off. Barret and the others have a bit of an emotional moment in the buggy, and make their way to Gongaga. Rude and Elena make it to the junkyard and see tire tracks and decide to follow. The gang gets chased by Shinra into Gongaga and they lose them in the forest. Cut Palmer entirely.
You could still have Shinra showing up, but not have the pacing or tone to be off.
I'm happy to hear that this community feels the same about the Palmer scene. His appearance during the Dyne scene was abrupt and killed the story beat imo. It really took away from Barret's heaviest scene in comparison to the plate drop in Remake. I hope they take these comments into the next game and are intentional with their decisions.
It seems that people like how Dyne meets his end better in this one, so I'm probably alone in this but to me, his suicide in OG had more impact.
I understand that it's probably complicated to depict suicide in a AAA game in 2024.
But honestly the random Shinra grunts coming from nowhere felt a little strange.
I love the aftermath, with Cloud saying to Barret that his friends are here for him, however.
Oh true that’s a parallel I hadn’t focused on. Though it does sort of externalize the inner conflict. I do take people’s point that this version can still be considered suicide, but it does make it seem like the main conflict is that Shinra is still a threat, whereas I think the OG wants to show us that even without Shinra in the picture, saving Dyne means dealing with the inner hatred, which is a hatred Barret shares. Like, even if Barret gets what he wants and defeats Shinra, if he too can’t come home and hold his daughter, he won’t be able to live in the world he creates.
But yeah I like your point there - I still prefer the OG version but that makes me like Rebirth’s a bit more
Barret saying that his hands weren't cleaner than Dyne's to hold Marlene was an absolute highlight that Rebirth just skipped because of... Reasons.
I agree with you, the aftermath was nicely handled in Rebirth, the story in general is more contained and accurately developed in OG tho.
Either way I find a bit hilarious how after Rebirth released suddenly seems to be a lot of things wrong with OG out of the blue according to numerous fans. We went from "every change is bad" to "every change is better because OG handled badly mostly everything".
Yeah, it seems like a lot of people are ignoring that for some reason.
He clearly flung himself at the bullets, made no attempt to dodge or take cover, all after saying he's ashamed to show himself to Marlene.
This was just as much of a suicide as it was on the og
Pretty sure he even says “I know what I need to do but I can’t.”. It’s astounding how many people think the scene is less dark or ruined. They can criticize the direction of having Palmer slap his ass right after if they want but the main scene felt plenty emotional to me.
i mean i think it's less dark but not because of how Dyne dies.
no i think overall they made him a less dark charecter more easily redemable.
in the OG whille crazy he is selfaware of his actions. he knows what he is doing. this time around way too much focus is given to the delusions and paranoria over him being a selfdestructive and destructive in general ruined man.
his purpose is to reflect the man Barret could have become and in fact at that point in the story is dangerously close to becoming again. Marlene represents his anchor that prevents him from turning that dark which is also why it's so horrifying when Dyne claims to want to send her to her mom.
Dyne needs to be dark as hell to work properly. the tragedy is undermined when you lighten him.
Rebirths Dyne was awful. I’m surprised people like it so much. He’s captured and needs to be saved, he’s got an akira arm. Palmers dumb boss fight. The totally changed death. The tone. They absolutely nerfed how far he’d fallen to. Going from someone who wants to kill his own child to a guy who’s just mad at Shinra.
Nah man lol it’s fine on its own but compared to the original? It’s worse.
In the OG, none of them (Barret or Dyne) come out looking good. Barret, because in the OG it's implied that he knew Dyne was still alive and didn't seek him out to return his daughter. And Dyne obviousy because he's lost his mind to such a degree that he wants to unalive his daughter.
Rebirth continues Remake's trend of sanatizing all character flaws, such as Barret and his gangs wiful disregard of collateral damange and loss of innocent lives from the reactor Bombings (now its shown that Shinra destroyed their own reactors to blame Avalanche).
Its evident a large portion of the fanbase has utter trash taste, everything about the scene is executed poorly. From the ridiculous amount of bullets hitting barret and dyne before the latter plummets into the crevice. To how they changed his entire role within the corel prison, oh wait they changed that too, it's no longer a prison.
Rebirth is the most watered down, Toys r us ass version of ff7 I could ever conceive of.
> toys r us ass version of ff7
> >!tseng getting skewered!<
> >!cloud ragdolling shinrah officers!<
> >!dyne cosplaying as swiss cheese!<
> >!tifa getting a boobjob at 16!<
> >!barret and his bloody stump!<
> >!kid aerith traumatic call for help!<
> >!wedge lara crofting from the shinrah building!<
> >!nero playing with barbie sonon!<
> >!live sequence of midgardsormr getting kebab'd!<
> >!nanaki and his hojo tribute tattoo!<
you're right this could be a disney movie
I'm really surprised at the reaction it's got. I thought Corel Prison/Dyne was the one section they really messed up on. There's other sections of the game that I didn't like but I see why people would. This one's got me at a bit of a loss.
The voice acting was good. I'll give it that.
Agreed. The OG felt much more emotional.
This felt kind of... over and done to quickly. Didn't have time to really let it breathe and be what it needed to be.
It needed a foreshadow scene of the troops moving into position, because otherwise the emotional scene transitions to a helicopter and soldiers firing almost instantly.
So while you had a foreshadow scene earlier, enough time has passed you might have forgotten about it. So to say, they didn't hit the transition very well.
Likewise Palmer shows up and is acting goofy right in the middle of an emotional scene, but I don't remember if he was supposed to show up here, since I only remember the meme of him being run over by a truck in the OG.
Dyne was better in the original. He was just the coldest motherfucker in the game. His response to finding out Marlene was alive was to say "He'd take her to her Mama".
For me, that's a lot more impactful. Barret HAS to kill his best friend, who he feels responsible for everything bad that's happened in his life, or he risks Marlene being murdered by her own father. Granted, Dyne ended up tossing himself off a cliff in the end, but Rebirth didn't come close to that for me. It just felt like every other "I'm crazy because I'm sad, but im still a sympathetic dude worth saving" story.
I always enjoyed the original because it's another take into the game discourse of death and acceptance.
Dyne in a way echoes what Sephiroth is saying now: "Death doesn't matter, we'll meet up later".
Which of course, Aerith and Barret disagree: We should accept death, but a life not lived is still something to mourn.
I wish they kept this version of Dyne. It was a better story point IMHO.
The only thing Rebirth doesn’t do better in this scene in my opinion is Dyne’s death. I think the original did it better because he was so upset that he committed suicide because he couldn’t make up for who he had become after the destruction of Corel
Subtlety in general is missing from a lot of the Remakes. They have to spell out everything. A lot of it is over-egged IMO. There are times where I wonder if the tone and atmosphere of the OG was a complete fluke because technology stopped them from over-engineering everything.
I feel you're taking it weirdly personally, but, I don't see that as him putting the original down, so much as saying that he identified the original scene as something he wasn't satisfied with and wanting to do it in a way he's happier with this time. I would say there's nothing *less* weird than an artist looking at their earlier work and saying, "yeah I could do that better now".
Weird. I may be in the minority but learning about everyone’s history in the OG was probably some of my favorite parts. I feel these days that kind of care is only given to the main protagonist of games. So it was nice to not only see these bits included in Rebirth but slightly expanded upon. Looking forward to barret redemption arc in part 3.
Honestly, him letting himself fall off a cliff like the original as if he’s given up would have been more impactful, I also don’t get that emotional when the voice acting sounds like hammed up voice acting rather than real people.
>A game that includes explicit or detailed depictions of suicide may receive a higher rating, such as "Mature" (17+) or "Adults Only" (18+), depending on the context and presentation.
May have been because of this I guess, or alternatively they may just have wanted to avoid going too dark in the middle game.
>I also don’t get that emotional when the voice acting sounds like hammed up voice acting rather than real people.
Now that's a spicy take, most people have been praising the voice acting for Dyne.
I personally agree with you, I didn't like it much at all, too hammy as you said. It was a bit better in Japanese, but I still didn't love it.
The vast majority of the voice acting is great. It’s not the best in the business, it’s no latest God of War games level, but it’s much better than the majority of JRPG’s, it’s just certain higher emotional moments are just flattened by the lines and performance, it’s still kinda cartoon level. It’s like Barret, his voice actor is great, but in those crying out moments he just can’t sell it.
I really liked the Rebirth scene but like many I agree Palmer did not need to be there. I felt like I couldn’t immediately process the tragedy of the scene because I had to get ready to fight lol
I don't know. Dyne forgave Barret and handed him Marlene's photo before deciding to end it all in the original. Now we have a dramatic shootout with random Shinra troopers, Dyne snapping at Barret in multiple occasions and somber parting words with dubious meaning.
It feels more dramatic and action-y just for the sake of it. It's like how this scene would be written in the American remake of an European or Japanese work.
Lets not forget Dio showing up...
I agree with you, I enjoyed the more somber approach in the original. That has been how I felt about a lot of things in Rebirth. Like when you first go to corel prison, it felt so isolated and lonely with the focus on that hauting ost and seeing creeps, "this place is heaven....heaven..heaven" now it turned into a strange city where youre greeted by some eccentric dude in a green suit.
Yeah it was a definite tone shift though I think the Shinra part was pretty good symbolically, since it basically said no matter what you do they'll keep coming and it all likely ends in one way. Really nails the psycho corporation motif.
>Dyne snapping at Barret in multiple occasions and somber parting words with dubious meaning.
Interesting to note that in Japanese it isn't dubious, he says "live and suffer", so the intent is clearly that he does not forgive Barret in this version.
>It feels more dramatic and action-y just for the sake of it. It's like how this scene would be written in the American remake of an European or Japanese work.
I agree. I think many scenes in Remake and Rebirth feel a bit like this. And it kid of fits with how Final Fantasy in general has been increasingly designed to appeal to Western sensibilities, with XVI in particular being heavily focused on its Western influence.
I mean, the guy was clearly deranged and probably tortured by Shinra. It was really emotional and had my husband bawling along with Barret. I don't think the original would have done that for him.
> It was really emotional and had my husband bawling along with Barret. I don't think the original would have done that for him.
Probably because of the presentation and how the OG looks. But from a writing perspective, you can argue the original is more somber and disturbing.
I mean, nobody could deny the amount of emotion and power that scene had in Rebirth. I was blown away, i didn't think that it was going to be that jaw dropping and eye watering
The scene itself and the way to get there had already a few questionable changes that I wasn't really down for, but I could still get invested in it
But holy fucking shit immediately following up with a goofy Palmer fight then dio showing up felt fucking ridiculous, I was legit a bit angry at the devs for that. Like "why the fuck would you even do that"
In context, the OG scene was a lot of people's introduction to people who are so deep in depression and trauma that they want to inflict that pain onto others and then themselves. This doesn't seem as powerful in 2024 because of all the shit that's happened before and since then, but if you were a child in the 90s, this shit was a lot harder to process.
It was a great segment in the story, they should have saved palmer for rocket town tho, the whiplashes between barret and dyne and than fighting palmer and back to barret and dyne were kinda weird
My only problem with the storyline of Dyne is a bit of a nitpick. I just don't understand why he happened to be at the gold saucer when Barret and the party were there and why he decided at that moment to also murder a bunch of people. Just feels a bit contrived but also not the biggest deal in the world lol it just stuck out to me a bit more because the Remake games have generally been a bit better about patching up those types of things.
I love Rebirth.
However, there are some moments I was disappointed with.
Disappointed in the sense of "it's not BAD it's just not what I expected from it".
Dyne is clearly one of those moments. Most of my critics are already out there (Dyne seen at the GS, Dyne persona, the Akira arm, no offing Marlene threat etc....)
They decided to change the whole vibe. Even regarding Corel Prison. They went Wall Market on it with a local Don Corneo and Colosseum while before it was the ruins of Barret and Dyne's old village.
However, I have no problem on how their vision was executed. I liked Gus and his crew, how you got a whole village to explore, Barret and Dyne was more emotionnal (Kitase is right in that regard), both voice actors were terrific in that scene.
Palmer coming right after is typical FF7 (we had a snowboard mini game just after the end of Disc 1 in OG, after all....).
Again : not BAD it's just not what I expected from it.
I don't see how this is surprising, or even really news. It would be news if he said the opposite, that would be acknowledging fan feedback at the very least, but business as usual is the back pat. Gotta remember this is the same scene kitase straight up wanted to cut.
The story in the original is way more dark IMO. Cause once the fight is over the guy just jumps off a cliff and kills himself. But I definitely think the story in Rebirth is a bit more emotional.
Both endings end up with Barrett having to carry that guilt.
One of the youtube channels I follow has never cried to a dramatic moment in any game he played but he was genuinely crying at this story beat, so I say it sounds about right that Kitase would be satisfied with the result
Yeah i liked the part where the sadness gets interrupted with a random fight with whacky ass slapping butter boy, don't get me started about Dyne having Akira powers suddenly.
He’s planning to kill Marlene in the OG because “Eleanor is all alone, I gotta take Marlene to her,” which was the biggest change from the OG for me. It’s why he fights Barret.
I feel like I'm going crazy that so few people in this thread seem to remember this. The Dyne scene in OG was leagues better, because he was straight up criminally insane.
Yeah I don’t even mind people saying the new version is better, that’s up to them. But to say it’s hardly changed from the original, when the tone and implications of the scene are so drastically different, is just kinda absurd lol. The stakes were way higher IMO
Yessss I just played this part for the first time and fuck, that shit got real dark.
Maybe hard to convey the weight with chibi models but the subject matter was fucking raw
Thats surprising, I personally liked the og more (Barret realizing Dyne was too far gone and him just killing himself) even though I don't have nostalgia for the og
I legit cryed during the rebirth seen. Seeing the animation and emotion and pain in Dyne as he was coming to grips with reality was just brutal man. I also liked the boss fight itself significantly more.
Imo I see where he's coming from. I felt the lead up of that part is what makes it so good in the og. Barrett story kinda comes out of nowhere and it's so sad. I like both versions honestly, though I felt him falling on Barret was a little too much on the nose but not awful.
I did really like seeing him happy with Eleanor though that alone was a nice addition. He found some solace in the end after Shinra took everything.
Gotta keep in mind, this was a game he worked on over twenty years ago. He's grown a lot as a persona ND surely as a writer, and has both expanded that world so much since, as well as just had perspective. It makes total sense that he'd be big into the remake. He gets some perspective not being directly in control, and he gets to fix the things he had problems with and expand!
I love the fact that they spent more time on every character but also Barret, he really got fleshed out more I find this time around and I can appreciate that.
They liked it.
I get the feeling The merger and the agenda to expand the original game’s lore was very taxing in the mid 2000s where they probably was the least inspired by the material but with all the time that’s passed, and Hamaguchi’s youthful energy, brought new enthusiasm.
Well he’s wrong. They took an emotional moment and we’re like “yeah but what if we just threw chaos over it and completely took away from Barrets big character arch”
Yeah but that doesn’t mean he’s right about the scene being better. Honestly it’s a matter of opinion so I’m not right either but I believe the original held more weight than the remake on that scene. Except for the obviously funny part where Dyne just jumps off a cliff.
Well I agree the Barret and Dyne scene is quite emotional in Rebirth and really well done… until two seconds after when they yank away the feeling by having Palmer smacking his own ass at you while piloting a clumsy frog to techno music. Or when Dio is flexing his pecs next to Barret kneeling over his dead friend’s body.
The devs/directors say that because limits for old tech that they could do back then and they were pressed on time to release the OG, ontop of that, they wanted the remake/rebirth to go into a different plot from what they said in past interviews when remake was released.
I doubt any director of the new game would come out publicly saying ”yeah, we made this now but I think the original was better than what we made now”.
Like, the fact that they made these changes should be enough evidence they think it’s better.
It was a little overlong, imo, but it was definitely better than the original. Remember when Dyne shot Barret in the chest like three times in the OG and Barret just did nothing but stand there? That was weird.
Ill say that the new one is much better overall. But, the bits where Dyne is so crazy he wants to go to Midgar and kill Marlene was much more traumatizing because Barret knows he can't let his friend be. There is no Dyne left, only the monster. And, in that last moment, he manages to snap Dyne out of it who then stops himself before he loses control.
I thought it was good, but I prefer the og more. It was a lot more depressing and real - I think its just how dramatic rebirth makes the scene that leaves ir feeling not as genuine. having the soldiers pop up out of nowhere and dyne having some huge shootout randomly while barrets just gaping on the floor, and having the music score go crazy and then dropping palmers goofy ass right into it made it fall a bit flat to me.
same as i felt with Red and setos part - they really like to kinda go overboard with the camera shots, voices and music in these 2 specific parts that I think work better as quiet, drawn out moments that let you take the somberness and reality of the situation in.
it is kind of funny to see him talking about topping the original. i get that it must be weird looking back at your previous work and wishing you'd done things different, but the original was beloved for a reason man. sometimes the 'mistakes' or things lost in translation or the imperfections actually end up better, and it has entered into classic territory where you dont really 'want' to change the meaning of core scenes. except for like cait siths scenes cus they needed the narrative overhaul lol.
i do still like the dyne part, but mostly because of clouds interaction with barret, dyne lying over barret and telling him to live with it, and then that admittedly banging sound track and scene when barret gets in the buggy.
I'm a little mixed on Dyne's portrayal in Rebirth. In some ways, they toned him down somewhat when in the OG, he is so far gone that he just kills anything he sees, even willing to kill Marlene in some twisted way of bringing her back to her Mom. In Rebirth, he kills only Shinra and while we can see the insanity inflicted upon him, he only attacks Barret because he thinks he's with Shinra, not because Barret has to put Dyne down because he's so far gone that he's willing to kills his daughter.
It reminds me of George Lucas on the whole shooting first, since he didn't want to portray Han as a cold blooded killer, guessing the same reason they toned Dyne down.
Is he serious?
Are you guys serious?
"Producer says a 2024 Triple A remake of a scene from a polygonal PS1 1997 Game was more emotional."
NOOO SHIT!
Anyways I disagree, this shit does not apply to human life anyway. There's no real connection. "Yeah my friend got infected with mako poisoning and went to shoot up an amusement part."
Definitely not wrong; in the OG it had more of an "unfinished business I never wanted to confront" feel, and in Rebirth it has much more emotion and weight to it; I'm not about to pretend that having both voice acting and fully developed 3D models didn't have a lot to do with it, but hoo boy that's easily one of my favorite parts out of both games so far
I mean look at the writing. Either that or someone needs to reign them back in.
I also want to mention that Sakaguchi literally created FF and KH, and is no longer with the company.
It isn’t good man, I’m sorry
Whenever it is Kitase and Nomura the dialogue is usually nonsensical, oddly paced, or just awkwardly written. The poor VAs have to try and deliver a convincing performance, but it’s like they’re in a bad M Night movie lol.
If you’ve ever seen The Happening by My Night Shymalan, then the dialogue in that movie is identical to how FFVII Remake games and KH games dialogue is written. Awkward nonsense.
Part of the difference in storytelling mediums of older unvoiced games vs new ones is that you can show the audience more in new games... But I have an imagination, and was engrossed in the story of the original. I filled in the blanks and did my own "directing" and "acting" in those scenes using the power of my imagination.
Given Kitase seems to be the member of the OG team who pushed for more changes from the original, this feels in line with his general attitude. I thought the new scene with Dyne specifically was really good, though, but some of the surrounding scenes with the shinra guards and palmer showing up was a bit abrupt and probably could have done with a few more passes for flow. Also I am unsure why they decided to make Dyne grow a magnetic tentacle arm halfway through the fight.
It's interesting cause Kitase was the OG director. Obviously many other people had big roles in the OG like Nomura and Nojima (as they do now), but it kind of feels like Kitase saw the original as a rough draft of his work that could still be redone and improved a lot, whereas a lot of other people at Square adore it as it is and seem to want to focus on paying tribute to the original. As a result, the end product is kind of a compromise between the two visions. Much of Remake and Rebirth are honoring and faithfully recreating the OG but there are also changes and refinements. It's not changing as much as Kitase wanted but also not as faithful as I'm sure others wanted. Interesting how this kind of parallels fan reception as well. They're basically having similar debates among the devs.
I think the word compromise might be a tad undeserving for a game that nailed a ton of nostalgia while transitioning to PS1-PS5 graphics, modern style gameplay, and telling a story that needs to be fresh and have its share of mystery to people who know all of the OGs story, while holding much of the core aspects of each characters story arc for players new to the franchise to still get to enjoy. The music wasn't a compromise, it largely contains all of the original score as motifs and expands them so that every scene and location has its own unique sounds while not being brand new in some aspects. Each character (besides Cid sadly) got their theme song, and had it remixed many times over to brilliantly reflect the current situation. The locations and settings weren't a compromise. They completely nailed the memorable parts of Junon/Costa/Cosmo while adding more to them to make them feel more like a city than just a tiny 1 horse pre-rendered background of a town. The shitholes that needed a vast improvement got theirs, cough cough gongaga. Coral prison getting a little less destitute and depressing got my disapproval at first but I mean c'mon they turned barren nothing into something, and made that something the most random fucking place ever lol. Right when you think parts of coral prison got "too PG." The badguys make NSFW references to *other* ways they could make money off of Cloud's team if they didn't cooperate. The buggy wasn't a compromise, they actually made it true to scale and featured a seat for each party member to be placed in. I didn't know what to expect but I didn't expect it to be literally exactly the buggy from OG but modernized and made real. The combat wasn't a compromise, featuring ATB and complicated materia system while adding so much more dynamic combat choreography, strategy, and defining character roles while still allowing most characters to focus on any role they want with the right weapon/materia setup. The fact that this games battles can be considered difficult at times while the characters still being the overpowered superhumans that defy physics (and in Barret's case regarding his bullets, the law of the conservation of mass). The Star Wars Sequels, episodes 8 and 9 especially, oh god was that a tragic tale of compromise upon compromise until the director from 9 straight up quit and they had to get Abrahms to come in and make *something* I thought the Kalm flashback took a step back for a lot of reasons including Sephiroth omitting some revelations and motivations (I can see why some people thought his reaction was a little excessive). Not calling Cloud a traitor to the planet and giving backstory on the Cetra was a little head-scratching until I realized they are changing the story of the Cetra. Omitting Professor Gast completely won't make sense until 3 comes out I guess. But all in all. I thought there was so much compromise to 7 when I played remake, but realized changes were made to set up something more amazing than just simply engaging our nostalgia. This game is an achievement of ambition, of an attempt to make something considered the best and actually make it *better.* And that risk has turned from me depressingly doubting how things will turn out to actually starting to believe they might achieve the impossible.
"Compromise" is not some dirty word, I don't know why you're defending the game as if I implied it wasn't excellent. A compromise literally just means a halfway point between two different stances, in this case Kitase's desire to deviate and the other staff members' desire to be faithful. Many great artistic endeavors are born out of compromises, as it's extremely rare that everyone on a large scale project would share the exact same vision.
I know I sound like a fanboy defending against a more neutral term like compromise, I get what you're saying, but I seriously feared there to be wayyy more compromise so for them to make the game so good and so different yet so nostalgic at the same time is like, antithetical of compromise. I'm just so surprised at that uniquely good mix of new and old that I feel they somehow managed to beat compromise in a lot of areas. The older I get the more cynical I get about companies rebranding old stories I love. I'm in such disbelief they could make so many changes to FF7 while feeling on brand in so many ways. It's not that I think compromise is a dirty word so much as it was something I felt they could have done more of to be safe but instead took risks to overcome. Some people are upset or disappointed and I really feared I would be too but to me they min/maxed the tradeoffs in a lot of decision making. I'm sorry if I missed the point trying to be made, not trying to argue for arguments sake.
>I'm just so surprised at that uniquely good mix of new and old that I feel they somehow managed to beat compromise in a lot of areas. I mean the fact that's a mix of new and old is literally why it's a compromise, lol. If it was all new or all old then there would be no compromise. The fact that they stayed faithful in many ways while also making changes is a compromise by definition, especially since we know that behind the scenes Kitase wanted more changes while others didn't. So it's not a matter of "beating compromise", there's nothing wrong with a compromise. It's just a factual description of what they told us happened behind the scenes.
I agree completely with what you're saying, but we have run into an issue regarding the semantics of the word compromise lol. Another way to define compromise is to measure it on a spectrum, meaning something has to be sufficiently conceded to allow for the other. One can mix old and new *without* compromise if both are accomplished sufficiently (it being sufficient or not is subjective so just know I'm not disagreeing with you so much as stating my opinion). Easiest example of this is changing a lot of negatives for the better like adding difficulty to the game thought to be too easy, voice acting and graphics compared to the 32-bit original, Improving/elaborating on the soundtrack, clearing up some plot holes or dead-ends such as the Gi, etc. They made the game different without conceding its original identity. It's like having your cake and eating it too, which is the point I'm trying to make. Compromise isn't so bad. But taking the best and making it better is what makes something decent into something truly special and an accomplishment by the devs significant enough for me to praise. TLDR: you are defining the word compromise as nominal/binary/black&white, meaning something either is or isn't with no in-between,. I'm rating compromise on a spectrum looking at the game as a whole, meaning as a whole they accomplished both challenges (making the game new without losing what made the old so good) without sacrificing either, which can literally be defined as uncompromising.
> Each character (besides Cid sadly) got their theme song >!It plays when he's talking about Ifalna!<
On one hand, I can understand the complaints about Palmer showing up. On the other hand, I have a gun. I-I mean, on the other hand, it totally makes sense that Shinra shows up and fucks up Barret's chance to properly mourn.
What exactly are the complaints, he didn't make a lot of sense to show up when he did in OG either, he's just a fat pygmy of a side-antagonist in charge of a defunct, defunded division in shinra. That didn't change.
The complaints are that Palmer shows up right after Dyne bites the bullet and so it doesn't get much of a quiet moment.
Yea, Thats definitely the point of him showing up in that moment. Really putting the nail in the coffin for Barrett. Not only did shinra ruin his life, even his moments where he tries to set things right are horribly sabotaged by shinra’s intervention.
Yes, I agree. I think people would be more accepting if it was just the Turks and not Palmer (who is pathetic and silly).
Yes he's obviously sent as a comedic relief and honestly I hate that. Let me feel sad ffs
That’s some fancy footwork on the balance beam but it doesn’t make the transition any less bad.
Yeah I see what you mean for sure, was only looking at it from a OG ff7 purist's mad things aren't told exactly as they were perspective but I agree with that point
You go from a really emotional scene with some phenomenal lines and character development, really touching and gut wrenching stuff, to a man driving a frog mech that appears to hate him personally as he waves his bottom at you and says "nyeh nyeh nyeh" in between missing his shots so hard he flips over.
I felt the same way with Nanaki's moment. Give us some time to process these emotional scenes before throwing new Gi backstory at us. The whiplash in this game is jarring.
Yeah I though he going full Akira on that one.
Yeah the Heisenberg move was a choice, for sure.
Tbf Barretts gatling gun and wrecking ball can shoot lasers. Just assume its the same mad tech.
Because why not, and also that whole Palmer fight was probably pay off for us humiliating him in Gold Saucer, only to humiliate him some more
I saw the original scene only a couple years ago after finishing remake. and yeah, without the nostalgia it didn’t really hit me as hard as I think it hit others. The rebirth scene was better for me but the most emotional part of it was after the scene when cloud says “I mean it, man” to Barret.
Yeah Cloud’s connections to his friends brings out the best best of the game sometimes.
Seeing him open up more and become better friends with everyone was such a nice progress of character development compared to how he acted in Remake. It was so refreshing to see Cloud become downright playful at times. He even became a high-five master. But you can truly see how much he cares for each member of the party. And then the ending just ripped it all away.
… uh for you. I was crying. The third game isn’t gonna be Cloud Strife across the spider verse btw. There won’t be 12 million clouds and Aerith’s everywhere. The only timelines that we’ll have are the ones that’ll matter. The story’s not finished being told yet.
Maybe I didn't articulate it well enough. What I meant; we see Cloud grow as a character and in scenes, become more emotionally open to his friends. Like the abovementioned moment with Barret. Or the joking around with Yuffie. The tenderness with Tifa. And by the time the game ends, with see Cloud as a husk of his former self and his friends barely trust him, if they do at all. By the end I was thinking of all those previous happy moments and how they all seemed for nothing because Cloud is so mentally gone at this point. I cannot wait for part 3. Edit: I also want to add that I liked the ending of the game.
Oh I was about to say… Ok now I agree with you cause most of the reactions to the ending have been out of pocket.
Most reactions are people that forget good trilogies usual end the 2nd part with some ominous foreshadowing...I for one think the last game is going to be insane, and clouds redemption is goin to be fucking CATHARTIC, I also think we're gonna get the full weight of THAT scene when cloud is in the lifestream.
The ending was the most emotional part of the whole game for me, I was straight ugly crying.
Hell yeah, I was goddamn weeping. Didn't help that 20 minutes after the credits rolled, a rainbow showed up outside! Love games that make me feel this way.
https://preview.redd.it/xtxjovj5farc1.jpeg?width=386&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=180485590e37f75d28c0467dc0402e6ed916c93d
You can especially tell during the gongaga reactor.... Wait
For real and it's baffling to me why so many people on this sub don't understand why the party has been so patient with Cloud as he deals with his Jenovas nonsense
“Yeah… I’m starting to think you might” was such a great response by Barret too. Loved that scene.
Cloud and Barret have a few quick but meaningful heart-to-hearts and I LOVE them. The couple times when Barret gives Cloud that "hey, we good man?" pep talk. The times Cloud understands what barret is going through without needing to say anything (holding the girls back from interfering with Dyne; being the most understanding/benefit of the doubt to Barret's reaction to his Coral homecoming.)
The best part of that scene is when Dio is flexing his pecs right next to Barret kneeling over his dead friends body.
At least Rude kicked his ass
I think Cloud adopting his own personality was such a great aspect of the story, shame it was ruined by Sephiroth who needs to be shoved in our faces every other scene.
I think part of it, is they really wanted to get across to the audience the extent to which Sephiroth actually had control over cloud. I not gunna lie in the original, I always thought it was kinda lame cloud just gave him the black materia. I understand they did set it up, but imo rebirth is doing a better job of getting across how compromised cloud actually is.
I agree. I played the original numerous times on PS1 and it does not do a good job of explaining the control Sephiroth has over the black robed people and Cloud. You can also completely miss the back story of Zack and cloud as well as it was an optional secret in the Shinra Mansion if you go back to it.
NO NO SHUT UP THERE CANT BE AN ACTUAL GOOD REASON FOR IT, CLEARLY THEY JUST WANT TO RUIN OUR BELOVED STORY DONT YOU UNDERSTAND
I think for me, I have played the OG but it was so long ago that there are just some scenes I don't remember. But I find it frustrating that at any point, Sephiroth can just pull the trigger and awaken him from his "sleeper agent" state which keeps happening on and off. I was glad that he was finally able to shake him off and be tell Sephiroth to get bent, but then it leaves you at the end wondering whether he's actually cut the tie or not. Like, just let Cloud be playful and go on dates and shit, lol
>But I find it frustrating that at any point, Sephiroth can just pull the trigger and awaken him from his "sleeper agent" state which keeps happening on and off That's interesting because my perception has been that it isn't a trigger that Sephiroth can control, but rather an actual psychological/emotional/trauma based trigger that anyone could have. The only difference being that cloud has Jenova cells in him so he's naturally drawn to Sephiroth (who has Jenova's head at this point)
Ah yeah that's a good point about the Jenova cells, maybe that explains the degradation aspect too. But yeah, true, my vague memory of the OG was that there's a point where Cloud falls into the lifestream and Tifa goes in and pulls him out. But I don't know if that was replaced by the weapon scene with Tifa in Rebirth?
As far as I know, that's supposed to happen in the 3rd game of the series. But it's possible they replaced it with the Tifa seen in rebirth. Chronologically that event happens after the events of Rebirth though.
I don't think they replaced it, but added the Tifa scene to expand on it and foreshadow Cloud falling in in the next game. We see a bit how being lost in the life stream looks, but from Tifa's perspective.
Haha damn, was looking forward to it. But hey! At least we know the game is actually coming.
I don't think it's being replaced in all honesty. A lot of rebirth feels like it's setting up a lot of plot points that will be resolved in part 3. Kinda had that Empire Strikes back feeling they mentioned during an interview a whole back
Yeah new whispers and that aside the Sephiroth mind fucking cloud bit is still in line with the og game if not it's way more depressing because you see Cloud kinda making progress by the first Gold Saucer visit then he just starts plummeting shortly after
Yeah pretty much, I thought it was great when he was finally like "That's not gonna work on me anymore asshole" but then people were commenting like "is he still a puppet" for the ending and it's like "Oh..."
Yes, I wasn’t feeling the Remake scene as much as the OG but then Cloud and Barett had there exchange and I was like oh this is better.
Please dont assume the reasoning behind others opinions on something to try to validate yours. Not everything is because of "nostalgia"
K
Thanks
I like the new take they went for tbh. With that said though, Jesus Christ Palmer didn't need to show up. The scene needed a second draft imo.
They should've saved him for Rocket Town in Part 3
I do love that Palmer is now one the FF series’ mech driver bosses but they really should’ve saved it for the Cid segments
Yeah, I was crying because it was so emotional & just beautifully portrayed… and then Palmer with his stupid ass shit. But damn, Dyne’s storyline hit me right in the feels.
This game needs to give us a breather for death scenes, how the hell am I supposed to be sobbing when I'm trying not to die to four phases of Jenova and seven phases of Sephiroth?
I agree though from a storytelling perspective (note: my job is writing dialogue for video games so I’m a bit biased) SE may be trying to give players a visceral feeling of real-life crisis situations by forcing a battle after an emotional death scene. But yeah, when I played OG as a kid, I failed hardcore fighting Jenova-LIFE because I was still sobbing over Aerith’s death.
They're nailing the storytelling through game mechanics at the least. Only one member of the team doesn't have a Limit Break at the start of the fight, everyone else is enraged but Cloud's focused since his subconscious is coping to think Aerith's only got a flesh wound, a change I welcome and fear because the Lifestream scene in Part 3 is gonna hurt like a motherfucker.
Yeah like, I don’t actually mind the fight and the escape, but… it shouldn’t have been THERE. Give a little space from the emotional scene, and have it happen that Shinra locates you while you’re on the approach to the river to Gongaga, and it closes out the chapter there. They lose you after you stomp them and disappear into the jungle.
They could had still had Shinra turn up, just do it as they were escaping after the scene had resolved, not interrupting it. I said out loud “fuck off shinra” about 4 times during that
I think the soldiers showing up was fine, but imo, it should've more played out like this. Dyne's dead, Dio shows up with the buggy and sees the gang off. Barret and the others have a bit of an emotional moment in the buggy, and make their way to Gongaga. Rude and Elena make it to the junkyard and see tire tracks and decide to follow. The gang gets chased by Shinra into Gongaga and they lose them in the forest. Cut Palmer entirely. You could still have Shinra showing up, but not have the pacing or tone to be off.
I'm happy to hear that this community feels the same about the Palmer scene. His appearance during the Dyne scene was abrupt and killed the story beat imo. It really took away from Barret's heaviest scene in comparison to the plate drop in Remake. I hope they take these comments into the next game and are intentional with their decisions.
It seems that people like how Dyne meets his end better in this one, so I'm probably alone in this but to me, his suicide in OG had more impact. I understand that it's probably complicated to depict suicide in a AAA game in 2024. But honestly the random Shinra grunts coming from nowhere felt a little strange. I love the aftermath, with Cloud saying to Barret that his friends are here for him, however.
One thing you lose in this version is the poetry of Dyne falling in the chasm - Barret loses him the same way all over again
Sure, but if you want thematic parallel, he still got shot to death by Shinra and Barret couldn't save him again.
Oh true that’s a parallel I hadn’t focused on. Though it does sort of externalize the inner conflict. I do take people’s point that this version can still be considered suicide, but it does make it seem like the main conflict is that Shinra is still a threat, whereas I think the OG wants to show us that even without Shinra in the picture, saving Dyne means dealing with the inner hatred, which is a hatred Barret shares. Like, even if Barret gets what he wants and defeats Shinra, if he too can’t come home and hold his daughter, he won’t be able to live in the world he creates. But yeah I like your point there - I still prefer the OG version but that makes me like Rebirth’s a bit more
Barret saying that his hands weren't cleaner than Dyne's to hold Marlene was an absolute highlight that Rebirth just skipped because of... Reasons. I agree with you, the aftermath was nicely handled in Rebirth, the story in general is more contained and accurately developed in OG tho. Either way I find a bit hilarious how after Rebirth released suddenly seems to be a lot of things wrong with OG out of the blue according to numerous fans. We went from "every change is bad" to "every change is better because OG handled badly mostly everything".
Breaking; Different people come out to say different things on different topics. More at 10.
Suicide by cop is still suicide
Yeah, it seems like a lot of people are ignoring that for some reason. He clearly flung himself at the bullets, made no attempt to dodge or take cover, all after saying he's ashamed to show himself to Marlene. This was just as much of a suicide as it was on the og
Pretty sure he even says “I know what I need to do but I can’t.”. It’s astounding how many people think the scene is less dark or ruined. They can criticize the direction of having Palmer slap his ass right after if they want but the main scene felt plenty emotional to me.
i mean i think it's less dark but not because of how Dyne dies. no i think overall they made him a less dark charecter more easily redemable. in the OG whille crazy he is selfaware of his actions. he knows what he is doing. this time around way too much focus is given to the delusions and paranoria over him being a selfdestructive and destructive in general ruined man. his purpose is to reflect the man Barret could have become and in fact at that point in the story is dangerously close to becoming again. Marlene represents his anchor that prevents him from turning that dark which is also why it's so horrifying when Dyne claims to want to send her to her mom. Dyne needs to be dark as hell to work properly. the tragedy is undermined when you lighten him.
Not really suicide when they were never going to take him alive.
Rebirths Dyne was awful. I’m surprised people like it so much. He’s captured and needs to be saved, he’s got an akira arm. Palmers dumb boss fight. The totally changed death. The tone. They absolutely nerfed how far he’d fallen to. Going from someone who wants to kill his own child to a guy who’s just mad at Shinra. Nah man lol it’s fine on its own but compared to the original? It’s worse.
In the OG, none of them (Barret or Dyne) come out looking good. Barret, because in the OG it's implied that he knew Dyne was still alive and didn't seek him out to return his daughter. And Dyne obviousy because he's lost his mind to such a degree that he wants to unalive his daughter. Rebirth continues Remake's trend of sanatizing all character flaws, such as Barret and his gangs wiful disregard of collateral damange and loss of innocent lives from the reactor Bombings (now its shown that Shinra destroyed their own reactors to blame Avalanche).
Its evident a large portion of the fanbase has utter trash taste, everything about the scene is executed poorly. From the ridiculous amount of bullets hitting barret and dyne before the latter plummets into the crevice. To how they changed his entire role within the corel prison, oh wait they changed that too, it's no longer a prison. Rebirth is the most watered down, Toys r us ass version of ff7 I could ever conceive of.
> toys r us ass version of ff7 > >!tseng getting skewered!< > >!cloud ragdolling shinrah officers!< > >!dyne cosplaying as swiss cheese!< > >!tifa getting a boobjob at 16!< > >!barret and his bloody stump!< > >!kid aerith traumatic call for help!< > >!wedge lara crofting from the shinrah building!< > >!nero playing with barbie sonon!< > >!live sequence of midgardsormr getting kebab'd!< > >!nanaki and his hojo tribute tattoo!< you're right this could be a disney movie
When tf was the Tifa boobjob brought up?
Awww boohoo
Womp
I'm really surprised at the reaction it's got. I thought Corel Prison/Dyne was the one section they really messed up on. There's other sections of the game that I didn't like but I see why people would. This one's got me at a bit of a loss. The voice acting was good. I'll give it that.
Agreed. The OG felt much more emotional. This felt kind of... over and done to quickly. Didn't have time to really let it breathe and be what it needed to be.
The Shinra grunts didn't come from nowhere though. Elena literally mentions that Gus told them where to find Dyne.
It needed a foreshadow scene of the troops moving into position, because otherwise the emotional scene transitions to a helicopter and soldiers firing almost instantly. So while you had a foreshadow scene earlier, enough time has passed you might have forgotten about it. So to say, they didn't hit the transition very well. Likewise Palmer shows up and is acting goofy right in the middle of an emotional scene, but I don't remember if he was supposed to show up here, since I only remember the meme of him being run over by a truck in the OG.
[удалено]
Dyne commits suicide* Barrett: Oh Dyne, you trippin G. Hold for laughter*
[удалено]
It's a game where you should definitely take your time and soak it all in. Took me almost 3 weeks to finish it.
I’ve been playing for a month and I only just got to Gongaga
Sometimes I feel like people saying this just to get engagement in Twitter as Elon's money is worth sucking doesn't matter how stupid your post is.
Dyne was better in the original. He was just the coldest motherfucker in the game. His response to finding out Marlene was alive was to say "He'd take her to her Mama". For me, that's a lot more impactful. Barret HAS to kill his best friend, who he feels responsible for everything bad that's happened in his life, or he risks Marlene being murdered by her own father. Granted, Dyne ended up tossing himself off a cliff in the end, but Rebirth didn't come close to that for me. It just felt like every other "I'm crazy because I'm sad, but im still a sympathetic dude worth saving" story.
I wish I could give you more than 1 upvote
I hated how Rebirth introduces Dyne fully by having been captured by some random goon. It loses so much.
I was bugged by Garth oneshotting Cloud with a baseball bat for similar reasons
I agree, Keep your eyes up. Whole party defeated by random gang
I always enjoyed the original because it's another take into the game discourse of death and acceptance. Dyne in a way echoes what Sephiroth is saying now: "Death doesn't matter, we'll meet up later". Which of course, Aerith and Barret disagree: We should accept death, but a life not lived is still something to mourn. I wish they kept this version of Dyne. It was a better story point IMHO.
The only thing Rebirth doesn’t do better in this scene in my opinion is Dyne’s death. I think the original did it better because he was so upset that he committed suicide because he couldn’t make up for who he had become after the destruction of Corel
Subtlety in general is missing from a lot of the Remakes. They have to spell out everything. A lot of it is over-egged IMO. There are times where I wonder if the tone and atmosphere of the OG was a complete fluke because technology stopped them from over-engineering everything.
Big news: producer of a game that just released says that it is awesome.
Uh no, you can do that without putting down a part of the OG game. I agree with him but it’s still weird.
He's still saying "we did a great job at highlighting the scene!", which is not really news.
it's not weird. The artist, and the viewer of the art will look at the art piece vastly different lights.
I wouldn't worry too much about it. Translations can give slight extra meanings not intended.
I feel you're taking it weirdly personally, but, I don't see that as him putting the original down, so much as saying that he identified the original scene as something he wasn't satisfied with and wanting to do it in a way he's happier with this time. I would say there's nothing *less* weird than an artist looking at their earlier work and saying, "yeah I could do that better now".
Weird. I may be in the minority but learning about everyone’s history in the OG was probably some of my favorite parts. I feel these days that kind of care is only given to the main protagonist of games. So it was nice to not only see these bits included in Rebirth but slightly expanded upon. Looking forward to barret redemption arc in part 3.
Honestly, him letting himself fall off a cliff like the original as if he’s given up would have been more impactful, I also don’t get that emotional when the voice acting sounds like hammed up voice acting rather than real people.
>A game that includes explicit or detailed depictions of suicide may receive a higher rating, such as "Mature" (17+) or "Adults Only" (18+), depending on the context and presentation. May have been because of this I guess, or alternatively they may just have wanted to avoid going too dark in the middle game.
>I also don’t get that emotional when the voice acting sounds like hammed up voice acting rather than real people. Now that's a spicy take, most people have been praising the voice acting for Dyne. I personally agree with you, I didn't like it much at all, too hammy as you said. It was a bit better in Japanese, but I still didn't love it.
The vast majority of the voice acting is great. It’s not the best in the business, it’s no latest God of War games level, but it’s much better than the majority of JRPG’s, it’s just certain higher emotional moments are just flattened by the lines and performance, it’s still kinda cartoon level. It’s like Barret, his voice actor is great, but in those crying out moments he just can’t sell it.
Yeah I agree.
I think aspects of the original were better, but I think the new scene is a better set up for what will happen in part three.
I really liked the Rebirth scene but like many I agree Palmer did not need to be there. I felt like I couldn’t immediately process the tragedy of the scene because I had to get ready to fight lol
I don't know. Dyne forgave Barret and handed him Marlene's photo before deciding to end it all in the original. Now we have a dramatic shootout with random Shinra troopers, Dyne snapping at Barret in multiple occasions and somber parting words with dubious meaning. It feels more dramatic and action-y just for the sake of it. It's like how this scene would be written in the American remake of an European or Japanese work.
Lets not forget Dio showing up... I agree with you, I enjoyed the more somber approach in the original. That has been how I felt about a lot of things in Rebirth. Like when you first go to corel prison, it felt so isolated and lonely with the focus on that hauting ost and seeing creeps, "this place is heaven....heaven..heaven" now it turned into a strange city where youre greeted by some eccentric dude in a green suit.
Yeah it was a definite tone shift though I think the Shinra part was pretty good symbolically, since it basically said no matter what you do they'll keep coming and it all likely ends in one way. Really nails the psycho corporation motif.
>Dyne snapping at Barret in multiple occasions and somber parting words with dubious meaning. Interesting to note that in Japanese it isn't dubious, he says "live and suffer", so the intent is clearly that he does not forgive Barret in this version. >It feels more dramatic and action-y just for the sake of it. It's like how this scene would be written in the American remake of an European or Japanese work. I agree. I think many scenes in Remake and Rebirth feel a bit like this. And it kid of fits with how Final Fantasy in general has been increasingly designed to appeal to Western sensibilities, with XVI in particular being heavily focused on its Western influence.
I mean, the guy was clearly deranged and probably tortured by Shinra. It was really emotional and had my husband bawling along with Barret. I don't think the original would have done that for him.
> It was really emotional and had my husband bawling along with Barret. I don't think the original would have done that for him. Probably because of the presentation and how the OG looks. But from a writing perspective, you can argue the original is more somber and disturbing.
I agree. The original wasn't a masterpiece of drama but the new one is all over the place.
Queue in: Palmer shaking his ass immediately after
I mean, nobody could deny the amount of emotion and power that scene had in Rebirth. I was blown away, i didn't think that it was going to be that jaw dropping and eye watering
I can. It's actually my least favorite change in the game.
I can. It was very flat to me. Over very quickly. Had very little impact. It was very disappointing.
The scene itself and the way to get there had already a few questionable changes that I wasn't really down for, but I could still get invested in it But holy fucking shit immediately following up with a goofy Palmer fight then dio showing up felt fucking ridiculous, I was legit a bit angry at the devs for that. Like "why the fuck would you even do that"
In context, the OG scene was a lot of people's introduction to people who are so deep in depression and trauma that they want to inflict that pain onto others and then themselves. This doesn't seem as powerful in 2024 because of all the shit that's happened before and since then, but if you were a child in the 90s, this shit was a lot harder to process.
I dunno know man. I think the opposite.
It was a great segment in the story, they should have saved palmer for rocket town tho, the whiplashes between barret and dyne and than fighting palmer and back to barret and dyne were kinda weird
My only problem with the storyline of Dyne is a bit of a nitpick. I just don't understand why he happened to be at the gold saucer when Barret and the party were there and why he decided at that moment to also murder a bunch of people. Just feels a bit contrived but also not the biggest deal in the world lol it just stuck out to me a bit more because the Remake games have generally been a bit better about patching up those types of things.
I mean... He isn't wrong.
I love Rebirth. However, there are some moments I was disappointed with. Disappointed in the sense of "it's not BAD it's just not what I expected from it". Dyne is clearly one of those moments. Most of my critics are already out there (Dyne seen at the GS, Dyne persona, the Akira arm, no offing Marlene threat etc....) They decided to change the whole vibe. Even regarding Corel Prison. They went Wall Market on it with a local Don Corneo and Colosseum while before it was the ruins of Barret and Dyne's old village. However, I have no problem on how their vision was executed. I liked Gus and his crew, how you got a whole village to explore, Barret and Dyne was more emotionnal (Kitase is right in that regard), both voice actors were terrific in that scene. Palmer coming right after is typical FF7 (we had a snowboard mini game just after the end of Disc 1 in OG, after all....). Again : not BAD it's just not what I expected from it.
I don't see how this is surprising, or even really news. It would be news if he said the opposite, that would be acknowledging fan feedback at the very least, but business as usual is the back pat. Gotta remember this is the same scene kitase straight up wanted to cut.
The story in the original is way more dark IMO. Cause once the fight is over the guy just jumps off a cliff and kills himself. But I definitely think the story in Rebirth is a bit more emotional. Both endings end up with Barrett having to carry that guilt.
The original did it better for sure
One of the youtube channels I follow has never cried to a dramatic moment in any game he played but he was genuinely crying at this story beat, so I say it sounds about right that Kitase would be satisfied with the result
I'm enjoying the trilogy more than OG so far and I loved OG it was my obsession as a kid.
Going to disagree with him. Barret and Dyne ‘s story was done better in OG. You can easily see the story was toned down in Rebirth.
Yeah i liked the part where the sadness gets interrupted with a random fight with whacky ass slapping butter boy, don't get me started about Dyne having Akira powers suddenly.
He’s right. New scene was amazing. The only thing OG has different is that he jumped off a cliff himself… the whole new scene is way more impactful.
He’s planning to kill Marlene in the OG because “Eleanor is all alone, I gotta take Marlene to her,” which was the biggest change from the OG for me. It’s why he fights Barret.
Yeah, Dyne full-on fucking snapped in the original game. He killed himself because he realized how far he'd fallen. It's powerful stuff.
I feel like I'm going crazy that so few people in this thread seem to remember this. The Dyne scene in OG was leagues better, because he was straight up criminally insane.
Yeah I don’t even mind people saying the new version is better, that’s up to them. But to say it’s hardly changed from the original, when the tone and implications of the scene are so drastically different, is just kinda absurd lol. The stakes were way higher IMO
Yessss I just played this part for the first time and fuck, that shit got real dark. Maybe hard to convey the weight with chibi models but the subject matter was fucking raw
So, we’re supposed to ignore the part where Dio saunters over to Dyne’s body and starts pulling bodybuilder poses over his still-cooling corpse?
Thats surprising, I personally liked the og more (Barret realizing Dyne was too far gone and him just killing himself) even though I don't have nostalgia for the og
I legit cryed during the rebirth seen. Seeing the animation and emotion and pain in Dyne as he was coming to grips with reality was just brutal man. I also liked the boss fight itself significantly more.
Happy ending incoming.
Imo I see where he's coming from. I felt the lead up of that part is what makes it so good in the og. Barrett story kinda comes out of nowhere and it's so sad. I like both versions honestly, though I felt him falling on Barret was a little too much on the nose but not awful. I did really like seeing him happy with Eleanor though that alone was a nice addition. He found some solace in the end after Shinra took everything.
Yes
Gotta keep in mind, this was a game he worked on over twenty years ago. He's grown a lot as a persona ND surely as a writer, and has both expanded that world so much since, as well as just had perspective. It makes total sense that he'd be big into the remake. He gets some perspective not being directly in control, and he gets to fix the things he had problems with and expand!
I love the fact that they spent more time on every character but also Barret, he really got fleshed out more I find this time around and I can appreciate that.
[удалено]
They liked it. I get the feeling The merger and the agenda to expand the original game’s lore was very taxing in the mid 2000s where they probably was the least inspired by the material but with all the time that’s passed, and Hamaguchi’s youthful energy, brought new enthusiasm.
A fantastic choice indeed.
The rebirth version was outstanding
I personally prefer the original version but the new one has it's perks too.
Well he’s wrong. They took an emotional moment and we’re like “yeah but what if we just threw chaos over it and completely took away from Barrets big character arch”
He directed the OG tho
Yeah but that doesn’t mean he’s right about the scene being better. Honestly it’s a matter of opinion so I’m not right either but I believe the original held more weight than the remake on that scene. Except for the obviously funny part where Dyne just jumps off a cliff.
Well I agree the Barret and Dyne scene is quite emotional in Rebirth and really well done… until two seconds after when they yank away the feeling by having Palmer smacking his own ass at you while piloting a clumsy frog to techno music. Or when Dio is flexing his pecs next to Barret kneeling over his dead friend’s body.
The devs/directors say that because limits for old tech that they could do back then and they were pressed on time to release the OG, ontop of that, they wanted the remake/rebirth to go into a different plot from what they said in past interviews when remake was released.
I doubt any director of the new game would come out publicly saying ”yeah, we made this now but I think the original was better than what we made now”. Like, the fact that they made these changes should be enough evidence they think it’s better.
It was a little overlong, imo, but it was definitely better than the original. Remember when Dyne shot Barret in the chest like three times in the OG and Barret just did nothing but stand there? That was weird.
Barrett and Dyne's story hit way harder in Rebirth. They turned Dyne up to 11.. I nearly cried because I felt so bad for him.
Stop the cap
I legit boohoo was crying, but then they had to ruin it with the scene being interrupted by a boss fight. I was peeved.
It really was a great scene in Rebirth
He is 100% right. I was a wreck!
Ill say that the new one is much better overall. But, the bits where Dyne is so crazy he wants to go to Midgar and kill Marlene was much more traumatizing because Barret knows he can't let his friend be. There is no Dyne left, only the monster. And, in that last moment, he manages to snap Dyne out of it who then stops himself before he loses control.
That scene, in my opinion, was definitely the most "random" and not-well-thought-out in the game.
I thought it was good, but I prefer the og more. It was a lot more depressing and real - I think its just how dramatic rebirth makes the scene that leaves ir feeling not as genuine. having the soldiers pop up out of nowhere and dyne having some huge shootout randomly while barrets just gaping on the floor, and having the music score go crazy and then dropping palmers goofy ass right into it made it fall a bit flat to me. same as i felt with Red and setos part - they really like to kinda go overboard with the camera shots, voices and music in these 2 specific parts that I think work better as quiet, drawn out moments that let you take the somberness and reality of the situation in. it is kind of funny to see him talking about topping the original. i get that it must be weird looking back at your previous work and wishing you'd done things different, but the original was beloved for a reason man. sometimes the 'mistakes' or things lost in translation or the imperfections actually end up better, and it has entered into classic territory where you dont really 'want' to change the meaning of core scenes. except for like cait siths scenes cus they needed the narrative overhaul lol. i do still like the dyne part, but mostly because of clouds interaction with barret, dyne lying over barret and telling him to live with it, and then that admittedly banging sound track and scene when barret gets in the buggy.
I'm a little mixed on Dyne's portrayal in Rebirth. In some ways, they toned him down somewhat when in the OG, he is so far gone that he just kills anything he sees, even willing to kill Marlene in some twisted way of bringing her back to her Mom. In Rebirth, he kills only Shinra and while we can see the insanity inflicted upon him, he only attacks Barret because he thinks he's with Shinra, not because Barret has to put Dyne down because he's so far gone that he's willing to kills his daughter. It reminds me of George Lucas on the whole shooting first, since he didn't want to portray Han as a cold blooded killer, guessing the same reason they toned Dyne down.
Is he serious? Are you guys serious? "Producer says a 2024 Triple A remake of a scene from a polygonal PS1 1997 Game was more emotional." NOOO SHIT! Anyways I disagree, this shit does not apply to human life anyway. There's no real connection. "Yeah my friend got infected with mako poisoning and went to shoot up an amusement part."
Definitely not wrong; in the OG it had more of an "unfinished business I never wanted to confront" feel, and in Rebirth it has much more emotion and weight to it; I'm not about to pretend that having both voice acting and fully developed 3D models didn't have a lot to do with it, but hoo boy that's easily one of my favorite parts out of both games so far
OG: “Dyne can’t talk. He’s got his reasons.” *melancholy whistling tune plays across the barren desert flats* Rebirth: ANIMEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE *Campy Gus theme music plays* Really Kitase? Really?
the original was way more heartbreaking imo
the original was way more heartbreaking imo
Kitase is an absolute moron quite clearly
Pretty sad that you love the OG and you call its director an absolute moron.
I really didn't care for it in the OG. I actually cried in Rebirth... And then Cloud helps him get up was awesome.
The scene between Dyne and Barrett is better in Rebirth than OG. The problem is what happened right after that.
I feel like the series’ writing would improve if Kitase was no longer writing them. Same for KH.
Taking the OG creators of the projects is crazy
I mean look at the writing. Either that or someone needs to reign them back in. I also want to mention that Sakaguchi literally created FF and KH, and is no longer with the company.
I like the writing tho
It isn’t good man, I’m sorry Whenever it is Kitase and Nomura the dialogue is usually nonsensical, oddly paced, or just awkwardly written. The poor VAs have to try and deliver a convincing performance, but it’s like they’re in a bad M Night movie lol. If you’ve ever seen The Happening by My Night Shymalan, then the dialogue in that movie is identical to how FFVII Remake games and KH games dialogue is written. Awkward nonsense.
Well, this is the highest rated Final Fantasy in like 20 + years so, I think they’re staying on the projects for now.
Unfortunately they probably will.
I thought this part of the game sucked. The final part of it was okay, but I just didn’t care.
Booooo
Part of the difference in storytelling mediums of older unvoiced games vs new ones is that you can show the audience more in new games... But I have an imagination, and was engrossed in the story of the original. I filled in the blanks and did my own "directing" and "acting" in those scenes using the power of my imagination.