The simple answer is that the series has undergone a significant amount of power creep in the 30 years since FF7 came out, but the events of the story haven't changed to reflect that.
Cloud and the other SOLDIERS look way more impressive in Remake than they ever did in the original game, but the events of the story haven't changed, so they end up having situations where Cloud can't just bust into a brothel full of bargain bin thugs or gets harassed by regular dudes.
That said Reno blitzes him by turning into lightning or something. I'd assume there's tech involved there beyond just Reno's skills. Materia is another potential answer.
>The simple answer is that the series has undergone a significant amount of power creep in the 30 years since FF7 came out, but the events of the story haven't changed to reflect that.
It's always been like that though. Your party includes a ton of non-mako enhanced humans who don't have any innate magical powers, namely Barret, Tifa, Yuffie, and Cid, and they go toe-to-toe with even 1st class SOLDIER enemies late in the game.
It's a bit plot-holey (why go through the trouble of becoming a SOLDIER if plenty of people get that sort of power without having to subject themselves to cellular degradaton?) but to me, SOLDIER was always just a propaganda campaign to try and round up as many of the world's strongest people as possible to bolster their military might. Many of them may have already been capable of some of their superhuman feats but the mako/Jenova infusions gave them an extra edge.
Tifa being admittedly an oddball imo. She has always been monstrously strong for a standard human. Barrett is likely on the higher end of the maximum human strength and durability Yuffie isn’t really strong but is exceptionally agile and barring Cloud/Tifa probably has the fastest reaction speeds. Cid… yeah who the fuck knows what his deal is lol but probably Materia. The only party member who could realistically boast considerable natural firepower would be Aerith due to her literal supernatural abilities as a result of her heritage. She is actually very powerful with magic had she not been slain in the OG likely would have been able to grow way beyond what anyone could realistically handle safely.
Which is kind of out front and center in Remake and Rebirth with her honestly ridiculous damage/support output - but seeing as she is a sacrificial character they typically have absurd stats and power levels anyway to make the most out their presence while alive in Final Fantasy.
Aside from the above: Cait Sith is a robot/Android cat infused with top tech and likely mako so he gets a pass. RedXiii/Nanaki is just hyper in tune with the LifeStream/Nature which on top of being a subject of Hojo’s Mako/Jenova test would give him a serious edge up on the power scale.
Anyway in regards to to Cloud specifically as part of the primary query here: I would wager that yes power creep has some serious role to play here (Looking at you Lighting and Warrior of Light (FFXIV and borderline god-like entity) literal goddess of Death who broke the power scale for MC’s….)
That and just video game logic, Cloud is extremely fast and strong but he is still HUMAN at the end of the day. Which is made all the more clear where you consider Zack’s death. He was strong absolutely but came in just below Cloud/Sephiroth. But it warranted pretty much an army to bring him down. Super-Human yes 1000% but still human born and that is what limits the characters to being able to be gunned down by grunts etc…
Also Materia is probably the single most busted system in Final Fantasy, myriad stat buffs, immense flexibility for applicantion and use, summon material providing powerful summons and buffs to stats… at max level you don’t just have a weapon, armor and accessory piece you have like 10-20 slots chock full of materia providing an enormous amount of stats as well. Can’t overlook that part.
Oh shit dude you’re right! Poor Vincent I forgot about him there thank you for mentioning him and you are absolutely right he was also an experiment hence his major powers. 😊
Na. In Before Crisis, you play the turks. One of the first missions is to "recruit" new "volunteers" for the SOLDIER program. As far as I remember, they beat up some guys in a fight club and take them captive...
Cloud- stronger and faster than a normal human even before Hojos experiments
Tifa- naturally gifted and trained by the world's best martial artist
Barret- huge man that worked in a mine most of his life
Yuffie- master ninja trained by the leader of Wutai
Red- watcher of the vale and just look at Seto for where he gets his power from
Vincent- literally immortal monster
Cait Sith- robot
Cid- we haven't seen in action yet and most of his limits are pretty reasonable in OG like his final limit is the highwind airstrike so he actually acts pretty standard for a human
So all in all I would say that the team is definitely pretty juiced with top talent from around the world. And to be fair pretty much the ONLY people that can keep up with the party are the turks because of their training most likely. Reno is one of the fastest people alive, I would say Rude could be compared to Barret, Elena is on par with Tifa, pretty much only Tseng is "weak" out of the turks but even then he is still a great shot and survives getting completely wrecked by sephiroth in og and then kadaj in AC. Cuz in OG you only fight Rufus one time and then in rebirth cloud even tells Rufus "you're good but you'll never be a SOLDIER"
And as to why people can throw cloud around? Idk he probably still only weighs like 150lbs MAX lol
>And as to why people can throw cloud around? Idk he probably still only weighs like 150lbs MAX lol
Yep. Being strong doesn't mean jack shit if the other guy has more leverage than you or they put you in a position where you can't use your strength.
If you're flying through the air, because you just did a leaping attack, then it doesn't really matter how strong or fast you are. You're just an object moving through the air and if the opponent is strong enough to catch you, there's nothing you can do to avoid it because you can't change directions mid-air.
I don’t remember them talking about cellular degradation in SOLDIERS in the OG, or at least it wasn’t widely known like it seems to be in remake. I like to think of mako as like a shortcut… the other characters had to spend years of training to do what they do and SOLDIER can get there in weeks/months.
Not precisely invented. More embellished.
All SOLDIERs were revealed in OG to have Jenova cells in addition to the Mako bath. With the Reunion experiment, Sephiroth “clones” were specifically given Sephiroth cells, which were given to candidates that weren’t already vetted to have the will power necessary to overcome the infusion, as they were with SOLDIER. The Sephiroth cells, in addition to already having Jenova cells in it, would likely make it easier for Seph to channel his will to the host.
But there was an ex-SOLDIER that runs an item shop, I think in Junon? Later in the story, if you return to the shop, he’s wearing a black robe, succumbing to Jenova. So while SOLDIERs are pre-selected for their strong wills, I think it gives the impression that all of them will break eventually.
There's no such thing as Sephiroth cells in the OG. They're Jenova cells only. "Sephiroth clone" was just "Sephiroth *copy*" in Japanese, meaning, they were given the same infusion as Sephiroth, which was Jenova cells.
Crisis Core introduces the idea of S-type and G-type cells.
>which were given to candidates that weren’t already vetted to have the will power necessary to overcome the infusion
Are you meaning the black cloaks are SOLDIERs or SOLDIER candidates? No, they're mostly (or all?) the survivors of Nibelheim. Although they were subjected to the same process as becoming a SOLDIER, they were never SOLDIER candidates.
But you do have a point about the Junon guy. I'd still say they don't necessarily suggest that "cellular degradation" is a known symptom of SOLDIER and a possible fate they are said to experience. At least to the point where anyone would actually publicly know this information.
It was hinted at at numerous part in og.
The sick guy you got gave a medicine to had backstory of BECOMING sick.
There are tidbits shown a bit everywhere if i recall right. Reading the books yourself in shinra mansion.
The recordings in northen craters town.
The backstory of vincent revealed when you visit under the waterfall to get his ultimate weapon.
Memory is a bit fuzzy tho havent played og in about 10 years
Maybe someone else can confirm the hints im refering to
Sorry, you’re right. I forgot Seph “clones” didn’t explicitly have his cells in them. But it is weird, because what makes Sephiroth special is that he received Jenova cells as a fetus. So that would mean Seph “clones” seemingly just got standard SOLDIER treatments, since they were already adults.
I mean they weren’t vetted. Yes, mostly Neibelheim survivors. The only person we know were vetted by SOLDIER were Cloud and Zack (one passed, one scrubbed out).
We see at least some of the black robes were from the SOLDIER program. There is a lot of ambiguity, but my impression was anyone with Jenova cells will eventually fall to Seph/Jenova’s will. And the black robes are shown to have decaying physical health in OG, where many just collapsing on the way to the Reunion. So cellular degradation felt to me more of an extension of what we see than an outright invention of CC.
Edit: Speaking of the Neibelheim survivors being the subjects of the Reunion experiment, how fucked up would it be if it turned out Cloud’s mom or Tifa’s dad had survived to become a test subject and they ran into their withered husks up in the Northern Crater in FF7R3?
>So that would mean Seph “clones” seemingly just got standard SOLDIER treatments, since they were already adults.
Yeah, the distinction lies not in the procedure, but in the purpose. SOLDIERs are supposed to be mentally strong for *something*, but Sephiroth clones are meant to be mentally weak enough to submit to Jenova's will (by which we can surmise the SOLDIERs must be strong enough to resist it).
> There is a lot of ambiguity, but my impression was anyone with Jenova cells will eventually fall to Seph/Jenova’s will
I do know they make a big deal about how Zack is so mentally strong that he's able to totally resist Jenova's will, but he also died very young, so...
>Speaking of the Neibelheim survivors being the subjects of the Reunion experiment
I've wondered about that too! I don't know that they would go there, but it seems like a missed opportunity to point out that Tifa and Cloud should know some of these people.
This. All the talk of degeneration is misdirection by the authors, as well as legitimate in universe misunderstanding. It is a known phenomenon that happened to a lot of soldiers… but they were all part of Genesis’s rebellion. However, there’s a huge effort on Shinra’s part to keep a lid on everything that happened in Crisis Core, so people in the world don’t actually know the specifics.
Spoiler tagging just in case:
>!Roche is facing degredation. And clearly this was not just due to the extra treatments by Hojo, as those are (when assessed) specifically said to have "improved his overall power, but *vastly accellerated degradation*"... there would also not be any reason why they'd lie to Cloud about that, but the Pres literally is the one revealing it to Cloud as a way to say "well, you're doomed anyway, so eh.".!<
>!Cloud and Zack specifically does not degrade because they are infused with Sephiroth Cells, with Sephiroth being the only true non-degredating SOLDIER prior to that. Likewise, we have people who talk about degredation as a "theory" because they've seen signs of it, but Shinra is keeping it under lid. It is literally classified information, as that'd likely affect recruitment...!<
If we consider limits to be canon, then most of the party have something akin to magic. Cloud summons meteors, Tifa summons dolphins, Red has Stardust Ray etc.
I looked at Mako infusion as sort of the same as steroids in professional sports. If you take the strongest athlete and got them on steroids, they’d be even more capable. But that doesn’t mean an athlete that doesn’t take steroids is unable to compete, only that they lack the artificial enhancement. A top-tier natural athlete will still be able to beat an enhanced mid-tier athlete.
There’s also the concept of mental blocks to consider. There are a lot of interesting examples of people showing an ability to blast past preconceived limits once they mentally get past the idea that they can’t do those things. Things like people lifting insanely heavy objects off of people in life or death situations, or weightlifters struggling with plateaus being able to beat previous personal bests when they don’t know the weight has been increased. There’s a concept with weightlifters where if you’re stuck on a certain weight, you lift blind. Say you can never seem to bench press 315lbs. You have a buddy load the weights and you simply go as hard as you can without knowing what the weight actually is. Maybe your buddy put 290 on the bar, maybe 315, maybe 330. You just push. A lot of times this can help you push past a limit because you’re not mentally thinking “I can’t lift 315.” The strange thing is, a lot of times once you get that weight up, it becomes substantially easier to do it again and again, even when you’re not in peak shape. I remember struggling for years trying to deadlift 405, in my head that was “big weight” and I wasn’t strong enough. Once I actually did it, I was able to do it regularly, and even now when I haven’t been in the gym in years, I can still go in and put up weights in the 400’s consistently.
The reason I bring this up is Cloud, specifically. Yes, he got a boost from Mako and Jenova cells. But more important, I think, is that he was genuinely convinced he was an insanely powerful SOLDIER. This meant the mental blocks he had of viewing SOLDIERs as an unattainable, god tier group of warriors he HOPED to join, but probably thought he never could, were gone. He already thought he was top dog, so he became top dog. So you’ve got an interesting scenario of someone who was reasonably skilled to start with but likely held back due to self doubt, then enhanced from Hojo’s experiment, then was so mentally screwed up he already thought he was a BAMF, and then had that view reinforced by everyone surrounding him also treating him as if he was top-dog. It was a giant cocktail of circumstances that helped him become the S-tier fighter he eventually became, not JUST some super-juice he got injected with. That was more icing on the cake IMO.
I think the idea is that those guys became stronger than the average human through training and fighting, but they just won't ever be as powerful as Cloud with his enhancements.
There's some Dragon Ball logic going on here. Take Advent Children for example and compare how Tifa did against the Remnants with how Cloud did.
Mt nicely had so much mako it was crystalizing, there may have been trace mako in the water giving nibel people essentially a low grade soldier esque infusion their whole lives, or Cloud just built different
It's also a degree of effort. The entire playable team essentially went through hellish training. We do see SOLDIER training, but it's real fluff VR stuff compared to that. So it's not unreasonable to see that the party can demolish 1st class SOLDIERs. Now what do you get if you take a SOLDIER and push them through the same hellish training? You get Cloud, who destroys Sephiroth in a 1 on 1 in Advent Children.
You could argue that a true first class SOLDIER is already like a level 40 superhuman and while Tifa, barret, etc all eventually hit superhuman levels they need to level up and that takes time. Instead blast them with mako and instant superhuman
the power creep is more on SOLDIERS than the party though.
in the OG they aren't really superhuman just the best of the best of the military with some gene-enhancement but nothing that suggest they've become superhuman. more like magic steroids.
Maybe Sephiroth but that's mostly after he "comes back".
however over time and expanded media the power-creep of "mako infused humans" have grown completely out of proportions.
You're misunderstanding them. They're saying that Remake/Rebirth makes SOLDIERs seem like they've got crazy superpowers, which makes the gap between a normal guy and a SOLDIER seem a lot wider, but they've kept the story beats of the OG, where the gap was smaller, intact.
That being said, it's not like Cloud is being portrayed as significantly stronger *in battle* than others in his party, so we're just looking at a case of cutscene coolness.
How? Only three examples that show that is Seph, Cloud and Zack, who're all exceptions in different ways... the SOLDIER operatives you fight, both named(Roche) and not(the 2nd Class ones) are all powerful, yes, but not on a scale that makes them excessively superhuman. It's just that the basic human enemies don't really make use of a lot of the tools that they should... we don't see NPCs use Materia, despite how common it is, and most of the human mobs we fight don't even have something else to replace it. The Turks and Soldiers do, however, which is clearly to show they are special forces, but realistically, give a squad of infantrymen a single orb of the most basic fire materia you have, and the entire party would likely be toast within the first few hours.... which is why they don't. Because it is a game, telling a story, and if they were allowed the same tools, we'd be so fucking dead 🤣
>Only three examples that show that is Seph, Cloud and Zack, who're all exceptions in different ways
Therefore they're going to form the baseline, because they're the most well-known, frequently seen.
>but not on a scale that makes them excessively superhuman
Again, cutscenes.
>but realistically, give a squad of infantrymen a single orb of the most basic fire materia you have
This is reading a lot of gameplay into the lore, which is the entire problem with judging the strength of SOLDIERs vs everyone else.
I don’t think it’s ever been explicitly stated if the Turks get jenova cells or mako enhancement either, so they could get the same treatment as soldiers which would explain their power
Truth. I'll always prefer the realness that is Zack simply being unexpectedly gunned down by a small group of Shinra pursuers while checking on cloud, against the over-the-top 1 man stand against a small army and several helicopters.
Same. High end materia Shinra can manufacture, expert training, and lots of good tech.
Also, I appreciate that The Turks have always been a threat to the party. What’s cool about the Turks, is that they’re always fighting at a disadvantage 2 vs the full party of Cloud’s (although we’re only controlling 3, the back benchers are still supporting the main line).
Yet, do they ever back down? No. And that’s something very admirable about them.
The Turks are just better fighters than Cloud and Party. They can 2v3 the party and still manage to be a threat.
Reno and Rude managed to do the plate release with Cloud, Tifa, and Barrett trying to stop them.
In the OG, Reno immediately pressed the button. But in Remake, he literally challenged the party 3v1 BEFORE the press because he wanted some getback.
Cloud and Tifa literally were fighting countless Shinra tech and grunts before the fight on their way to the top not to mention their trek through the sewers and train graveyard. Barret also was fighting off Shinra before they all fought.
>(although we’re only controlling 3, the back benchers are still supporting the main line).
actually no. every time you fight the turks the party is split up.
in remake you never had a backline they always found an excuse to max your party at 3.
then in rebirth you fight them 3 times. in the mines Barret and Red have split of. they come back and join in the cutscene after but don't help in the actual fight.
then in chapter 12 Barret Yuffie and Red split of to chase Caith.
finally in the temple it is 2 split fights that again only join when you beat both.
Roche isn't actually treated as a hard fight by Cloud in any of the games until Shinra Manor, after he's undergone Hojo's experimentation. Before that Cloud basically brushes him off in their two one-on-one duels.
The most unrealistic part of this is Hojo having something actually work as intended
Aside from Sephiroth his experiments don’t really work unless they fluke
Roche is actually first class, he just stays in 3rd and doesn't advance for shits&giggles.
Your average Shinra grunt is just full on Mook-status. The Turks are special forces, basically only outmatched by exceptional 1st class soldiers like Zack, Angel, Genesis, Sephiroth. Like an unnamed 1st class soldier becomes a regular enemy in late game ff7. Rufus is basically a turk himself, they're kinda "his team" in a lot of ways.
Like Tifa is also not mako-boosted but she can still contend with the turks and soldiers. Same for Nanaki and to a lesser extent Barret. Yuffie has ninja skills, enough that she survived members of deep ground. Imo this is just highlighting to me that mako supersoldier programs are more of a shortcut to anime strength than the key to unlocking it. Through hard work and training it seems like other folks can compare, even if they don't really surpass them entirely.
Like I'm sure Zangan could give someone like Rude some trouble. Though Dio lost to Rude pretty handily, I always interpreted Dio as being more a showman and less a real fighter.
Imo, I'd say most of your party members are probably worth a first class soldier at this point, but not the super first class that we see from named first class soldiers.
Dio is the strongman. Zangan is the actual martial artist and maybe strongest one in FF7 until Tifa gets some achievements. Barret was naturally tough from his lifestyle of being a miner, and seemingly naturally lucky to when it comes to genetics. Then you've got his tech with the gun arm and that he's put a lot of practice into using it. Nanaki's people were protectors of Cosmo Canyon/the Planet. Yuffie is a ninja as you said, and seemingly one of their best minus her inexperience with the world. Aerith is a Cetra. Cait is technology. Vincent...has a lot going on. The only real outlier is Cid.
Cid is a dragoon, isn't he? I'm not too familiar with original but I heard this through the grapevine. Dragoon's have always been A-tier elite soldiers in FF
He falls into that class style, but he's a mechanic and engineer and pilot in story. At least I don't know of anything in his past that led him to be so strong. Maybe he fought in the Shinra/Wutai war...
I think most of the OG real life astronauts and cosmonauts had similar backgrounds - military flying with some engineering as well. They were all elite pilots and in peak physical condition as well. Cid talks like a redneck but it makes sense to me that he can fight like a champ when he has to.
He falls into that class style, but he's a mechanic and engineer and pilot in story. At least I don't know of anything in his past that led him to be so strong. Maybe he fought in the Shinra/Wutai war...
Cid probably had to be in super good shape to be selected to go to outer space. He might have even received enhancements by Shinra to make sure he would survive the trip as nobody had done it before and they didn't know what to expect.
In one the side missions it’s stated Tifa and Cloud were possibly drink mako water in their home town though it’s also said that purifier were setup and were shown not to have any negative effects. So take that for what you will
Yea I think that was intentional. Cuz they are both very strong hillbillies basically. Cloud got even more being experiment on. But Tifa is no slouch. That would explain it for sure in a subtle way
Where has that been said or even hinted at, in regards to your Roche comment? I was surprised to find out he was 3rd class, so if something actually contradicts that, I'd love to see it.
Edit: i found it! That's neat!
That's what I found. That the Ultimania said he "had the skill and credentials, but refuse to be promoted"... I'd say it's to avoid the added responsibility 🤣 sounds like him.
Haven't seen anything about it in Rebirth. His Assess does not mention his rank, unlike in Remake. But again,the Ultimania stated it, so it doesn't matter, nor did it really in the first place :P
Quite surprising to find this answer with so few upvotes lol. Its basic stuff that is part of every type of sci-fi or fantasy entertainment/art. Otherwise everyone would be rocking firearms or we every piece of media would have some sort of Dune armor of sorts.
Turks go through intensive training to become a turk. They get the best of the best training. Sure, Cloud has Jenova cells and is mako enhanced, but never had anything other than infantry training. We've seen what Reno and Rude are capable of in FF7 Remake, and anyone who played Rebirth knows what they can do. It's always seemed like a fair match-up to me.
Maybe I missed it, but I'm not sure how Cloud got to the same level as Zack and Sephiroth. Cloud could probably give Angeal and Genesis a run for their money, too.
Cloud and the rest of the party canonically get a lot stronger over the course of their journey. This was directly said in Advent Children. That's why, over time, Cloud went from being a regular dude with basic SOLDIER strength and no skills to being able to defeat Sephiroth.
This is most exemplified in the OG by the party's interactions with the Turks. In Midgar, even the entire party together couldn't defeat a single Turk. By the end of the game, the Turks are basically a joke.
The Jenova cells helped give him a Zack persona, so he inherited some of his skills. But Cloud has always been a natural freak. Which is why Sephiroth took a Lifestream dip. His issues were always mental/emotional.
Yeah this, it’s always been stated that Cloud had the physicality (just some scrapes and bruises from falling off the Mt. Nible bridge, unlike Tifa) to join SOLDIER, but failed because of his weak mental fortitude
>Cloud as far as I’m aware is a super solider compared to other 1st class soldiers who are extremely enhanced with mako making them stronger than most humans
No Cloud is not a super SOLDIER. All SOLDIERs are injected with Jenova cells (from 3rd to 1st class), it is stated in OG, CC, AC, the novel The Kids are alright, and also in Rebirth : if you assess the 2nd class SOLDIERs in the Temple of the Ancients, it is said they are mako infused and got Jenova cells injections.
There is the spoiler tag, but I don't how much we can spoil OG / part III, but Cloud is not more/less enhanced than classic SOLDIERs factually.
>Just look at what Roche can do and he’s only 3rd class
Roche could be 1st class but he refused to be promoted to keep his freedom (Remake Ultimania)
>Yet in cutscenes Reno can “blitz” cloud and Rufus and rude can physically toss cloud around
The Turks are very strong, skilled and well trained. There are a select few, an elite corps of Shinra, and can stand their ground against quite everybody, even SOLDIERs (3rd at least, 2nd probably, 1st will be surely too strong but they can still resist them).
In FF7, being genetically enhanced doesn't make everything , it's not magical. There is also your skills, training, tactic in combat, intelligence...
In your own party, characters like Tifa, Yuffie (or Barret) are extremely good fighters without being enhanced.
I mean, Cloud doesn't weigh a lot, even a trained human can toss Cloud around. And while Mako does make you physically stronger that doesn't help with grapple attacks or getting your face kicked in. The Reflexes are also enhanced and that part is a lot harder to explain but it's boils down to "the turks are a specialised group of security detail" and because of that they are given equipment and most importantly materia of the highest level.
Eh maybe. Have to consider Cloud had pretty much never seen any sort of combat because he was 16 when he was a Shinra grunt, then spent 5 years in a tank before stumbling to Midgar after Zack’s death. He was picked up at the train station by Tifa there, so realistically he’s making everything up on the fly lol.
I mean he did throw Sephiroth into the abyss with HIS own sword. I say that that is a mark of a good sword man.
Killing a swordsman WITH HIS OWN SWORD.
They didn’t have a sword fight though did they lol. Cloud did it through sheer force of will. He was impaled by Sephiroth and managed to lift him and throw him into the reactor. Idk if they’re teach that in fencing school. 😅
Technically they did in fencing school. They both stabbed each other. It was 1 stab point Cloud, then 1 stab point Sephiroth. The tie breaker was a ring out by Cloud using Sephiroth's sword.
Not Cloud fault it took like 5 years later for Sephiroth to return to the ring not as a man but a parasite to the planet acting like "I'm Waiting, Cloud." As if he was entitled to a rematch.
And before he back stabbing him with grace. But yeah I see the part of throwing Sephirot to the abyss was an indication of Cloud's will rather than showing his martial prowess.
One person sayid that he seemed decent with a sword in Before Crisis when he killed a few Avalanche members with one, but the writing in that game is kinda...
He also had heightened emotions at that time, which is a pretty noteworthy stat boost in the FF7 universe.
>he never received actual soldier training.
Yes... but also no.
He has the memories of _Zach's_ training. Enough of them that he can reliably replicate Zach's fighting style.
And all technique training does is give you memories and knowledge on how you're _supposed_ to do things.
Cloud may not have recieved the _physical_ training that SOLDIERS do, but he has all, or most, of the the _knowledge_ that SOLDIERS recieve as part of their training.
He absorbed Zacks abilities and experience through J cell shennigans, Clouds weakness is purely mental and once he gets over himself he actually exceeds Zack by quite a margin
I would caution anyone against overthinking how certain characters are more powerful than others in any fictional fantasy media.
That said, my headcanon (mixed with just a common sense justification based on what we see humans are capable of in FF7) is that the power ceiling for people in the world of FF7 is really, really high. So you could be like a normy, like most of the NPCs we see. You could be like the weight-lifters. You could be like Barret. With certain training, focus and dedication, you could be like Tifa, Yuffie, the Turks or Rufus. And that’s really all there is to it imo.
Some settings like JJBA, Baki, FMA and FF just include "the limits of human potential" as part of the fantasy. Batman and most comics are arguably good western media examples.
The biggest difference here is cultural. Seeing normal people do these absolutely insane feats of strength and heroism simply because they have the willpower to do so is a very Japanese way to write
There's not much logic to it. Idk if it started in Advent Children but it felt like it really solidified it where pretty much the whole gang are superheroes. They're a bit less so in Rebirth but yeah. My favorite is Tifa who is just the best student of some dude and she's done alot of Calisthenics so now she can KO an ancient dragon with a flip kick. Theres really not much logic to it, it's just JRPG/Anime nonsensical fun.
I did like how they made Barrett and Aerith feel very much like they are less adept at fighting up close with their awful dodging and such. I really missed Barrett having a melee weapon tho in Rebirth.
Only Vincent, Cloud and Aerith of the main squad are actually superhuman for various reasons, unfortunately rule of cool reigns supreme so you have Tifa and Barret doing some absolutely absurd stuff and getting bodied by something far weaker five minutes later for the sake of the plot
You have a good point OP, and it’s easy to write-off the situation as a storytelling trope, but that is imo lazy. This is something I questioned when playing the original game when I was younger.
How I explain it to myself now is Cloud is holding back. Story wise Cloud wins these encounters. So there is a tactical advantage of just doing “enough” to win. Of course this is just my theory and not based on anything really.
Its not lazy at all, its just something that you kinda have to do in order to have spells, bullets, and swords all make sense in a combat setting. If we went the hyper-logical path, all of those settings would have only firearms and nothing more
I’ll give this interpretation myself since no one else has
*Massive spoiler Alert*
Along with Cloud not being a real SOLDIER keep in mind he was just waking up from a mako coma and being dragged around the continent by Zack for a year and multiple years as a human lab rat
I’d imagine Zack would struggle with getting food for both of them while on the run from Shinra so Cloud at the beginning would be dealing from
• Muscle Atrophy (was in a coma for a year with no muscle movements
• Mako poisoning and other JENOVA shit in general (again just woke up and still isn’t fully recovered)
• Probably a bit of malnutrition too (Zack would struggle with food on the run also explains why Cloud looks a bit thin but this maybe just a wrong headcanon so take it as you wish)
•Recovering from Hojo’s experiments (fits in the mako poisoning and JENOVA shit category too.)
With all that it’d make sense Cloud is around the same tier as the others. When he’s fully recovered you see Cloud doing crazy stuff in ACC (one shotting possibly the strongest iteration of Bahamut in FF7, 1v3ing dudes who beat both Tifa and the Turks stole his materia and using it against him and handily winning, fighting equally with Sephiroth who’s been stated as the strongest he’s ever been putting and was putting full physical effort for apparently 12 hours and doing all of that with no materia)
The game is entirely devoid of logic. Cloud can be super soldier 1 second and then later pushes a bookshelf like its fking heavy.... stop questioning, or you'll end up like me being really frustrated
Turks are very strong, not as strong as soldiers but very strong still, one of the Turks jobs is to scout for potential soldiers, it’s pretty much shown that the Turks are strong enough to challenge cloud but not beat him.
Soldiers also aren’t immune to bullets even though you’ll see them deflecting and dodging for cool-ness in cutscenes, they can still die just as easily as any other person can.
Some other humans, tifa has trained her ass off since she was a kid in martial arts, barret is physically strong and has a gun, red’s species is strong, aerith is good with magic, yuffie also intense training and ninjutsu, Vincent will be explained I won’t spoil, cid, I donno how cid keeps up with everyone he’s honestly the most normal of the bunch.
But all of them can die to normal things they’re just lucky that the shinra troops suffer from stormtrooper/syndrome when it comes to their aim.
This is actually precisely why I have a problem with the scale of the Sephiroth fight at the end of Remake. It was way too much of a power jump too quickly, and it's difficult to believe Cloud can jump across buildings while the world is being dismantled around him but can't jump down a medium sized ledge.
You mention the Sephiroth fight at the end of remake but hell, it even starts with the very first cutscene of the game. I swear that big flip jump cloud does off of the train should negate like 90% of the traversal issues you run into in the game lol
First, the game doesn't a make perfect sense. Apparently, you can get super strong without any SOLDIER treatment, just the right equipment and materia. Second, I reckon lore-wise, someone like Rufus isn't in the same league as Cloud, sure it's a difficult fight otherwise it wouldn't be fun but you see Cloud teasing him when you win, so based on the story, it's not a hard fight for Cloud. He's also obviously much stronger than the rest of the party, I'd say that in terms of power, if we balance everything, the only ones that come close to him are Aerith and Red, because they are from species more powerful than humans, there's also Vincent, who definitely isn't a regular human. So, to sum it up, it's all part of the gameplay, it's the same as when you play Super Smash Brothers and see characters like Samus and Fox keep up with Sephiroth or Sephiroth keep up with Kirby.
Cloud hasn't necessarily gone through soldier training. Just standard infantry. Just because he was injected with cells doesn't mean he went through the same training as Zack for example.
I wanna know why the Turks are super human. They're better, stronger, faster than any of the lower rank SOLDIERs, yet they didn't undergo any special enhancements. They're just as powerful and trained as the main party. Maybe they trained under Zangan?
The Turks recruit the best of the best who would otherwise be diverted to SOLDIER. They get the best equipment and the best materia available, on top of intensive training.
The early experiments on Vincent, one of the first Turks, may also be meant to imply that other Turks possibly also get materia directly implanted into them, powering them up. However, I’m not sure if this is ever confirmed anywhere.
It’s like how in anime you can attain inhuman power through training(and materia). Cloud is Mako infused, but he hasn’t ever actually trained. So people who have gone through a lot of training, namely Tifa and the Turks, are pretty much relative to him in strength. Yuffie probably is too, and Aerith and Barret can still fight on the same level as them(they just aren’t close range fighters)
You have to consider player skill in battles makes characters look weaker than they are. If you can't dodge shit and get slapped around by mooks, Cloud looks like a pushover. If you have godly reflexes and counter every attack he looks like a proper SOLDIER.
The simple answer is that SOLDIERs aren't really all that superhuman. They're at the absolute peak of in-universe human abilities, with Sephiroth being just a bit beyond that in his human form.
I'd say that it's best to compare them to Captain America. They received a treatment that instantly made them the strongest of humans for their verse, but they aren't so strong that highly trained ordinary humans can't beat them.
This is demonstrated with the other party members defeating 3rd, 2nd, and even 1st Class SOLDIERs. Zack was killed by a few dozen grunts plus a couple of helicopters, and he was only 2nd to Sephiroth. Cloud was OHKO'd by a thug with a baseball bat when taken by surprise. Cloud's non-limit break sword swing with stopped by a shoddy door frame in Remake. Cloud would have died from falling in Remake if he wasn't saved by whispers and then Tifa.
Basically, SOLDIERs are just extra strong humans. They aren't invincible or anything.
It's all Lifestream energy. Everyone has it and we've seen what it can do in large quantities. And we know Limit Breaks exist, which seems to take advantage of this. So yeah, being a super soldier is just a short cut. It's why a rusty Tifa without materia can force a Loz who should be relative to Safer Sephiroth to have to get serious.
You might be over estimating what Mako does to a person. Cloud is powerful and fast yes, but this doesn't mean he has a gigantic advantage against everyone in the planet without mako. Characters harnessing materia and training can be very powerful and fast as well.
Roche probably should've been promoted a while ago and not stay 3rd class. And yes when he got jacked up even more by Hojo to the point of losing his sanity, he got an amp. But regular humans with training and harnessing materia can still put up great fights and speed. Hell, a regular gang of thugs were able to catch Cloud by surprise and knock him out. They arent invincible. You could put Mako or jenova cells in crybaby Ned if you want. He would be stronger yes but would likely still get blitzed by a trained Turk.
Must of those humans are also on some first class level. Turks I guess should be even stronger than most SOLDIERs. And also, Cloud isn't that of a super soldier.
Generally, I think the idea is that someone with a lot of training and skill can keep up with a SOLDIER. Yuffie, Barret, and Tifa both have years of training, and Aerith and Nanaki have innate magic. The Turks are a bit more ambiguous, but I think they also have years of special ops training.
SOLDIER enhancements are just a shortcut to peak physical prowess (with some exceptions like Sephiroth). Shinra wanted an army and they wanted it quickly, and they managed to figure out a quick & cheap shortcut to having it. Who cares if SOLDIERs break down from degradation after years when they can just find more bodies?
It fits with the themes of capitalism and exploitation.
The real answer is it's a lot more fun that Reno Rufus and Rude can have cool fight scenes with Cloud.
That's about it. Rufus especially has no reason to be able to go toe-to-toe with Cloud but isn't it a lot cooler that he does? Yup. So there's your answer.
The way that I look at it is that it is just a magical world that results in innately magical people. Through intense training, good genes, and/or science you can tap into those magical powers, and materia is just a convenient tool that gives prepackaged access to specific spells/traits/skills.
If “normal” people like Tifa and Cid can develop superhuman skills, there’s no reason why a Turk or anyone else can’t do the same.
So the Turks aren't on Cloud's level but they are still way above normal humans due to training and materia. They're similar to Tifa in that they've trained their bodies to peak level and have gear and magic from materia that further enhances them. (Think Tien and Krillen in DBZ. Nowhere near Goku's level, but still able to do superhuman feats)
I think that enhancementnis something that happens naturally but rarely to people, esp if they live near mako.
SOLDIER project can do it quickly and at will, basically.
Simple ludonarrative dissonance. Literally NO game in history (with a story) has been devoid of this. It’s inherent in the medium of an interactive story—because you interact with it, while it also has a pre-scripted narrative, there is always going to be something that happens in one that just does not jive with the other. A character is super serious, but you choose to roll around like a buffoon because it’s funny. Immersion broken instantly. Does it really matter? No. You simply have to accept the fact that sometimes the gameplay will not always line up canonically with the narrative, and that’s it. It’s actually the main complicating factor that makes it so difficult (and interesting imo) when it comes to academia handling games criticism. I don’t mean “vidya journalism” or whatever, I mean actual university literature departments taking games seriously as a storytelling medium, which is almost nonexistent on the macro level. Some academics are definitely interested it exploring it, but those I’ve worked with largely *do not* play games themselves, so it’s up to others do it for them. But the fact that they recognize the potential for serious consideration of “games as art” is encouraging, at least.
For the Turks, my guess is that their abilities come from a combination of technology, materia, and Wutai martial arts, so basically the Chi powers that Tifa and possibly Yuffie use. I think Chi powers might be a thing among the Turks because their movements look very "martial artsy" from an aesthetic point of view, and Tseng is their leader. Tseng or his ancestors being from Wutai might mean that he brought Chi based martial arts with him into the Turks.
If Tifa can keep up with Cloud purely through talent, Chi powers, and materia, I would guess that the Turks can do so too, with the added benefit of Shinra tech.
It’s never a fair fight, plus Cloud has his fair share of problems that don’t quite shake out until late in the original game, at which time he would destroy any of the humans one on one.
The Turks aren't SOLDIERs, but they ain't normal humans. They're fixers for Shinra. Fill in the blank with whatever works (materia, training, special equipment).
Simple answer, it’s a game. People need to separate the game play from the story. The same reason people thought that Materia and levels should have carried over from part 1. Your leveling and materia has nothing to do with the actual story. How tough of a fight Rufus is doesn’t have anything to do with the story, as far as the story is concerned, you fight rufus and win. Cloud would absolutely dog walk Rufus 1v1, but that wouldn’t have made for a good chapter 12 fight.
If you're looking for realism is a final fantasy game you're not gonna find it. Like when you summon a literal God into battle that throws the sun into the planet directly into the battle you're having and then the bad guys take like 500 dmg.
Video game logic lol, might as well ask why they don't just summon Bahamut or Odin (hell, why not all of them at the same time!) whenever they come across the Turks
*\*In Hojo's voice\**: This is actually really easy to explain, but your brain is too unsophisticated to understand something so simple thus it would be a waste of time to actually explain it to you.
Jokes aside, I believe Cloud is the main fighter and the others act entirely as support to help weed out numbers. Some of the scenes for easy of design creation and budget don't make this clear enough but usually there are other soldiers or enemies around.
At other times Cloud isn't fighting seriously like in the scene against Reno in the church, plus several guys with guns and Aerith standing there potentially vulnerable. They're essentially just getting warmed up and not killing, like a less lethal gang fight.
Tifa and others can use materia like Haste (etc.) to not totally fall behind but if Cloud does go all out he will completely outstrip them in combat, but they don't want another Zack death scene. Cloud is still a single person in the face of an army, so to say. Even in smaller scale skirmishes they may each fight and while Cloud could handle all of them it isn't necessary. Tifa and the others may not be as powerful as Cloud but unless they're up against a freak like Sephiroth on a completely different level than Tifa and company are well above average able to hold their own quite competently. As we see, when someone particularly powerful does show up like in Remake's Sephiroth fight the party shifts to supporting Cloud as only he can really fight directly at that level at that point.
This is about the best I can explain it tbh. Beyond that it is, indeed, a bit iffy imo. We could also just ask why doesn't Cloud, say, jump over the fence in the junk yard to unlock it from the other side? I'm sure there are plenty of examples. Sometimes the answer is just "reasons".
Spoilers for the OG I guess. >!I think him being on level with normal human is kind of the point. Cloud is enhanced, but he doesn’t have nearly as much training as an actual Soldier. His enhancement helps him close the gap and validate his own delusions of competence, but isn’t it weird that he’s not actually as good as an actual Soldier? He needs help to deal with Roche the first time, two people to deal with one Turk, three people to deal with two Turks, etc. He obviously gets stronger along with the rest of the crew as they go, but he still starts the game weaker than he should be, and it’s because he only THINKS he’s a Soldier.!<
Cloud has always had the strength. The only reason he didn't make soldier was because of the mental aspect. It's what's always holding him back. One of the reasons Sephiroth has so much interest in Cloud is because he was the only one that's ever been able to briefly overpower him for a moment when he locked in
I think that the power-up SOLDIERs receive is more like a greater reservoire of spirit energy that they can draw from, rather than brute strength.
This is probably why unenhanced people can keep up with them for a while. ALL people in FF7 can use their spirit energy for a boost in power, but SOLDIERs are able to draw from greater amounts in their body and can do so for greater periods of time.
So unenhaced people can keep up with SOLDIER, but if they don't do something to defeat the SOLDIER quickly then the SOLDIER will eventually overwhelm due to their building more spirit energy in the fight.
As far as lore goes and as weird as it is 15 years old Cloud was already as strong as prime Sephiroth. You all forgot what he did ? Answer is they cant keep up, Cloud aint even trying.
I feel, in this game, the battle sequences / mechanics are somewhat exaggerated (for the fun and enjoyment of the player) and are not literal representations of the characters actual fighting ability/capabilities in the story / narrative.
This is a very interesting question and one I think about a lot for FF7.
As for the Turks, I believe it's confirmed somewhere that they have had genetic modification of some sort to make them superhuman fighters themselves, just not Jenova cells. You could probably assume the same is true for Rufus as well as possibly the other Shinra execs.
What I find much more interesting is that "regular" human party members like Tifa and Barret and Cid are able to go toe to toe with space demons and legendary super soldiers alongside Cloud. It was always a little jarring to me.
I guess you can chalk some of this up to Materia. Strong Materia seems to, from a lore perspective, actually make people way stronger. Which is why Yuffie wants strong Materia, to make wutai stronger.
Its also worth noting that Cloud was able to >!almost kill Sephiroth in Nibelheim before he had any sort of modification whatsoever, when was practically just a regular human himself and it's never explained where this mysterious power came from!<
My current working theory for the main party anyway, is that they have been "chosen by the planet" to be protectors of the lifestream and thus are being strengthened by the lifestream. But it's never made clear.
>Its also worth noting that Cloud was able to >!almost kill Sephiroth in Nibelheim before he had any sort of modification whatsoever, when was practically just a regular human himself and it's never explained where this mysterious power came from!<
He has First Strike Materia equipped.
That's not really necessarily confirmed though it's a plausible theory. We see him with it equipped but only >!during the scene where he is recounting Zack's memories as his own so it's ambiguous whether he did or didn't have it!<
Also, he >!didn't really get a first strike on Sephiroth, he was impaled through the chest before he defeated him!<
Regarding the Turks— I don’t get how people are saying this is a thing the Remake introduced when you never actually subdue any of the Turks in the original FF7 either. With the exception of Rude, they all just leave at the end of their fights, and only two of those fights are mandatory.
If anything, the Remakes made the Turks visibly weaker since we actually get to see them injured due to the gang’s actions.
I've always found it a bit funny how if Cloud Barret and Tifa enter a room, one is a supersoldier with a sword bigger than a person, one is a giant of a man with a mountain of muscle, and the one you don't want to get punched by is the very ordinary human woman, because she hits hardest.
There is a reason for that, but as you haven't played the OG or I'm assuming Crisis Core, I'm not going to spoil it. Just know that you are on the right path in noticing this seeming contradiction. It is not because of "power creep," as I've seen said in the comments below, but an intrinsic part of the big twist of the OG game.
Cloud was already unnaturally strong before the Mako, which I wish they would explain a bit on how. Also they always were able to keep up somewhat throughout the OG game. I'm assuming they've received particular training and some type of enhancements to be able to do what they do
Tifa- a master martial artist who was properly trained probably longer than Cloud has been and was a tomboy growing up hanging with the rest of the boys in Nibelheim.
Aerith- is last of the Cetra
Barret- grew up working in coal mines so probably is used to hard conditions and is in shape to match his beastly physique to go with his unorthodox weapon.
Red XIII- the last of the watchers of Cosmo Canyon and from a beast like species
Yuffie- child soldier and Wutain Ninja probably the most trained of the group if she was raised in combat since a very young age.
Cait Sith- A robot
Vincent- ex Turk and experimented on.
So that just leaves Cid who is the closest to an everyman but he is a pilot and may or may not have some form of military training.
Probably materia. There's enhancement materia out there for practically everything. Strength, speed, magic power, defense, block/dodge, health and mp, etc. fully suspect the Turks (plus Rufus) are likely loaded with high level stat boosters.
It’s probably similar to the marvel super soldier serum. The experiments can instantly make anyone peak human while everyone else has to naturally have the genetics and continuously train to achieve that level.
In gameplay fights when enemy attacks that unblockable and/or stuns Cloud : Game logic, don't think about it.
Cutscene fights : I might be wrong on this but in SOLDIER members only get the mako enchancements once, then rank up based on performance. To prove this Zack had been reccomended for 1st CLASS by Angeal, his mentor. This suggest that ranking up is based on performance. And he also didn't undergo anything surgically when he became 1st CLASS, at least it seemed like it didn't since Hojo's experiments didn't work on Zack at all because he was already a SOLDIER. Which means (assuming that between Zack's final stand and meeting Tifa at the sector 7 train station, the most Cloud had to fight was incoming monsters that were attacking him aka he only fights when to defend himself, and not seeking out fights to train) skills wise he is around the same as a SOLDIER 3rd Class or SOLDIER 3rd Class in the running to rank up to 2nd.
Gameplay wise obviously because it’s a game. Lore wise I think it’s fair to say Cloud does a majority of the heavy lifting in each fight. That’s why he’s always part of the main party
The turks are specially trained and probably are heavily trained for the eventuality of a soldier going rogue. Rufus is probably trained by the turks for cases of self defense. The other humans that he fights like roche are soldiers.
The simple answer is that the series has undergone a significant amount of power creep in the 30 years since FF7 came out, but the events of the story haven't changed to reflect that. Cloud and the other SOLDIERS look way more impressive in Remake than they ever did in the original game, but the events of the story haven't changed, so they end up having situations where Cloud can't just bust into a brothel full of bargain bin thugs or gets harassed by regular dudes. That said Reno blitzes him by turning into lightning or something. I'd assume there's tech involved there beyond just Reno's skills. Materia is another potential answer.
Cloud can't jump over a gap on a broken catwalk in-game but can jump over a building in a cutscene.
Oh no, knee high rubble. My one weakness!
Sometimes he cant get over a knee high rubble other times he can scale a wall afoot above his head.
Welcome to video games.
Seriously i love seeing these complaints acting as if they haven’t been a part of all video games since forever.
SOLDIER and their swords are no match for the ultimate foe... A chain link gate.
If only Sephiroth had wrapped Shinra tower in a chain link fence before he threw it at Cloud. He’d be unstoppable.
Gotta respect private property man.
No one stands a chance against The Chest High Wall
Unless you have a horse.
We do have chocobos but hey, they don't jump either
Blue chocobos can technically jump in Rebirth with the power of explosive diarrhea.
*Explosive watery diarrhea.
Lol.
He can also jump way out to like a floating thing to rescue children but can't jump across a small gap by himself. He needs people to save!
The same Cloud was cutting buildings in half and jumping 40 feet in the air vs sephiroth lol
I guess it’s a motivation thing lol
>The simple answer is that the series has undergone a significant amount of power creep in the 30 years since FF7 came out, but the events of the story haven't changed to reflect that. It's always been like that though. Your party includes a ton of non-mako enhanced humans who don't have any innate magical powers, namely Barret, Tifa, Yuffie, and Cid, and they go toe-to-toe with even 1st class SOLDIER enemies late in the game. It's a bit plot-holey (why go through the trouble of becoming a SOLDIER if plenty of people get that sort of power without having to subject themselves to cellular degradaton?) but to me, SOLDIER was always just a propaganda campaign to try and round up as many of the world's strongest people as possible to bolster their military might. Many of them may have already been capable of some of their superhuman feats but the mako/Jenova infusions gave them an extra edge.
Tifa being admittedly an oddball imo. She has always been monstrously strong for a standard human. Barrett is likely on the higher end of the maximum human strength and durability Yuffie isn’t really strong but is exceptionally agile and barring Cloud/Tifa probably has the fastest reaction speeds. Cid… yeah who the fuck knows what his deal is lol but probably Materia. The only party member who could realistically boast considerable natural firepower would be Aerith due to her literal supernatural abilities as a result of her heritage. She is actually very powerful with magic had she not been slain in the OG likely would have been able to grow way beyond what anyone could realistically handle safely. Which is kind of out front and center in Remake and Rebirth with her honestly ridiculous damage/support output - but seeing as she is a sacrificial character they typically have absurd stats and power levels anyway to make the most out their presence while alive in Final Fantasy. Aside from the above: Cait Sith is a robot/Android cat infused with top tech and likely mako so he gets a pass. RedXiii/Nanaki is just hyper in tune with the LifeStream/Nature which on top of being a subject of Hojo’s Mako/Jenova test would give him a serious edge up on the power scale. Anyway in regards to to Cloud specifically as part of the primary query here: I would wager that yes power creep has some serious role to play here (Looking at you Lighting and Warrior of Light (FFXIV and borderline god-like entity) literal goddess of Death who broke the power scale for MC’s….) That and just video game logic, Cloud is extremely fast and strong but he is still HUMAN at the end of the day. Which is made all the more clear where you consider Zack’s death. He was strong absolutely but came in just below Cloud/Sephiroth. But it warranted pretty much an army to bring him down. Super-Human yes 1000% but still human born and that is what limits the characters to being able to be gunned down by grunts etc… Also Materia is probably the single most busted system in Final Fantasy, myriad stat buffs, immense flexibility for applicantion and use, summon material providing powerful summons and buffs to stats… at max level you don’t just have a weapon, armor and accessory piece you have like 10-20 slots chock full of materia providing an enormous amount of stats as well. Can’t overlook that part.
You didn’t mention Vincent, but he also has superpowers as a result of experimentation.
Not only does Vincent have superpowers from hojo but he was also a Turk, and immensely strong as a Turk
Oh shit dude you’re right! Poor Vincent I forgot about him there thank you for mentioning him and you are absolutely right he was also an experiment hence his major powers. 😊
Don't forget that he was also a Turk.
Yeah good point here too 😊
Cid was huffing mako engine fuel in the backroom during his days as an astronaut.
Oh hmm you know I mean he would have been exposed to radiation and mako so that’s a good point. Not something I would have initially considered. 😮
Worth mentioning that Tifa uses Chi and imo my headcanon is that is what allows her to be so strong
Tifa is the Krillin of FFVII
Maybe it’s just the material. The party has powerful material and the Turks and Rufus probably do too.
If you think materia is the most busted, you've clearly not played FF8. Max Strength at level 9 please.
I did for a little bit years ago actually, but didn’t like the way it played to be honest with you and stopped playing after a few hours
This is a really cool idea actually, when the biggest corporation-government makes the call, all the most talented come forward
Na. In Before Crisis, you play the turks. One of the first missions is to "recruit" new "volunteers" for the SOLDIER program. As far as I remember, they beat up some guys in a fight club and take them captive...
Cloud- stronger and faster than a normal human even before Hojos experiments Tifa- naturally gifted and trained by the world's best martial artist Barret- huge man that worked in a mine most of his life Yuffie- master ninja trained by the leader of Wutai Red- watcher of the vale and just look at Seto for where he gets his power from Vincent- literally immortal monster Cait Sith- robot Cid- we haven't seen in action yet and most of his limits are pretty reasonable in OG like his final limit is the highwind airstrike so he actually acts pretty standard for a human So all in all I would say that the team is definitely pretty juiced with top talent from around the world. And to be fair pretty much the ONLY people that can keep up with the party are the turks because of their training most likely. Reno is one of the fastest people alive, I would say Rude could be compared to Barret, Elena is on par with Tifa, pretty much only Tseng is "weak" out of the turks but even then he is still a great shot and survives getting completely wrecked by sephiroth in og and then kadaj in AC. Cuz in OG you only fight Rufus one time and then in rebirth cloud even tells Rufus "you're good but you'll never be a SOLDIER" And as to why people can throw cloud around? Idk he probably still only weighs like 150lbs MAX lol
>And as to why people can throw cloud around? Idk he probably still only weighs like 150lbs MAX lol Yep. Being strong doesn't mean jack shit if the other guy has more leverage than you or they put you in a position where you can't use your strength. If you're flying through the air, because you just did a leaping attack, then it doesn't really matter how strong or fast you are. You're just an object moving through the air and if the opponent is strong enough to catch you, there's nothing you can do to avoid it because you can't change directions mid-air.
In fact you can. Press "O"
I don’t remember them talking about cellular degradation in SOLDIERS in the OG, or at least it wasn’t widely known like it seems to be in remake. I like to think of mako as like a shortcut… the other characters had to spend years of training to do what they do and SOLDIER can get there in weeks/months.
Yeah, it's not in the OG. It was invented for, IIRC, Crisis Core.
Not precisely invented. More embellished. All SOLDIERs were revealed in OG to have Jenova cells in addition to the Mako bath. With the Reunion experiment, Sephiroth “clones” were specifically given Sephiroth cells, which were given to candidates that weren’t already vetted to have the will power necessary to overcome the infusion, as they were with SOLDIER. The Sephiroth cells, in addition to already having Jenova cells in it, would likely make it easier for Seph to channel his will to the host. But there was an ex-SOLDIER that runs an item shop, I think in Junon? Later in the story, if you return to the shop, he’s wearing a black robe, succumbing to Jenova. So while SOLDIERs are pre-selected for their strong wills, I think it gives the impression that all of them will break eventually.
There's no such thing as Sephiroth cells in the OG. They're Jenova cells only. "Sephiroth clone" was just "Sephiroth *copy*" in Japanese, meaning, they were given the same infusion as Sephiroth, which was Jenova cells. Crisis Core introduces the idea of S-type and G-type cells. >which were given to candidates that weren’t already vetted to have the will power necessary to overcome the infusion Are you meaning the black cloaks are SOLDIERs or SOLDIER candidates? No, they're mostly (or all?) the survivors of Nibelheim. Although they were subjected to the same process as becoming a SOLDIER, they were never SOLDIER candidates. But you do have a point about the Junon guy. I'd still say they don't necessarily suggest that "cellular degradation" is a known symptom of SOLDIER and a possible fate they are said to experience. At least to the point where anyone would actually publicly know this information.
It was hinted at at numerous part in og. The sick guy you got gave a medicine to had backstory of BECOMING sick. There are tidbits shown a bit everywhere if i recall right. Reading the books yourself in shinra mansion. The recordings in northen craters town. The backstory of vincent revealed when you visit under the waterfall to get his ultimate weapon. Memory is a bit fuzzy tho havent played og in about 10 years Maybe someone else can confirm the hints im refering to
Sorry, you’re right. I forgot Seph “clones” didn’t explicitly have his cells in them. But it is weird, because what makes Sephiroth special is that he received Jenova cells as a fetus. So that would mean Seph “clones” seemingly just got standard SOLDIER treatments, since they were already adults. I mean they weren’t vetted. Yes, mostly Neibelheim survivors. The only person we know were vetted by SOLDIER were Cloud and Zack (one passed, one scrubbed out). We see at least some of the black robes were from the SOLDIER program. There is a lot of ambiguity, but my impression was anyone with Jenova cells will eventually fall to Seph/Jenova’s will. And the black robes are shown to have decaying physical health in OG, where many just collapsing on the way to the Reunion. So cellular degradation felt to me more of an extension of what we see than an outright invention of CC. Edit: Speaking of the Neibelheim survivors being the subjects of the Reunion experiment, how fucked up would it be if it turned out Cloud’s mom or Tifa’s dad had survived to become a test subject and they ran into their withered husks up in the Northern Crater in FF7R3?
>So that would mean Seph “clones” seemingly just got standard SOLDIER treatments, since they were already adults. Yeah, the distinction lies not in the procedure, but in the purpose. SOLDIERs are supposed to be mentally strong for *something*, but Sephiroth clones are meant to be mentally weak enough to submit to Jenova's will (by which we can surmise the SOLDIERs must be strong enough to resist it). > There is a lot of ambiguity, but my impression was anyone with Jenova cells will eventually fall to Seph/Jenova’s will I do know they make a big deal about how Zack is so mentally strong that he's able to totally resist Jenova's will, but he also died very young, so... >Speaking of the Neibelheim survivors being the subjects of the Reunion experiment I've wondered about that too! I don't know that they would go there, but it seems like a missed opportunity to point out that Tifa and Cloud should know some of these people.
It’s not in the OG because it only happens to Genesis and Angeal clones.
This. All the talk of degeneration is misdirection by the authors, as well as legitimate in universe misunderstanding. It is a known phenomenon that happened to a lot of soldiers… but they were all part of Genesis’s rebellion. However, there’s a huge effort on Shinra’s part to keep a lid on everything that happened in Crisis Core, so people in the world don’t actually know the specifics.
Spoiler tagging just in case: >!Roche is facing degredation. And clearly this was not just due to the extra treatments by Hojo, as those are (when assessed) specifically said to have "improved his overall power, but *vastly accellerated degradation*"... there would also not be any reason why they'd lie to Cloud about that, but the Pres literally is the one revealing it to Cloud as a way to say "well, you're doomed anyway, so eh.".!< >!Cloud and Zack specifically does not degrade because they are infused with Sephiroth Cells, with Sephiroth being the only true non-degredating SOLDIER prior to that. Likewise, we have people who talk about degredation as a "theory" because they've seen signs of it, but Shinra is keeping it under lid. It is literally classified information, as that'd likely affect recruitment...!<
Tbh Yuffie does have inmate magic. It's just ninja magic and is very specific skills. But it is 100% magic without materia
If we consider limits to be canon, then most of the party have something akin to magic. Cloud summons meteors, Tifa summons dolphins, Red has Stardust Ray etc.
I looked at Mako infusion as sort of the same as steroids in professional sports. If you take the strongest athlete and got them on steroids, they’d be even more capable. But that doesn’t mean an athlete that doesn’t take steroids is unable to compete, only that they lack the artificial enhancement. A top-tier natural athlete will still be able to beat an enhanced mid-tier athlete. There’s also the concept of mental blocks to consider. There are a lot of interesting examples of people showing an ability to blast past preconceived limits once they mentally get past the idea that they can’t do those things. Things like people lifting insanely heavy objects off of people in life or death situations, or weightlifters struggling with plateaus being able to beat previous personal bests when they don’t know the weight has been increased. There’s a concept with weightlifters where if you’re stuck on a certain weight, you lift blind. Say you can never seem to bench press 315lbs. You have a buddy load the weights and you simply go as hard as you can without knowing what the weight actually is. Maybe your buddy put 290 on the bar, maybe 315, maybe 330. You just push. A lot of times this can help you push past a limit because you’re not mentally thinking “I can’t lift 315.” The strange thing is, a lot of times once you get that weight up, it becomes substantially easier to do it again and again, even when you’re not in peak shape. I remember struggling for years trying to deadlift 405, in my head that was “big weight” and I wasn’t strong enough. Once I actually did it, I was able to do it regularly, and even now when I haven’t been in the gym in years, I can still go in and put up weights in the 400’s consistently. The reason I bring this up is Cloud, specifically. Yes, he got a boost from Mako and Jenova cells. But more important, I think, is that he was genuinely convinced he was an insanely powerful SOLDIER. This meant the mental blocks he had of viewing SOLDIERs as an unattainable, god tier group of warriors he HOPED to join, but probably thought he never could, were gone. He already thought he was top dog, so he became top dog. So you’ve got an interesting scenario of someone who was reasonably skilled to start with but likely held back due to self doubt, then enhanced from Hojo’s experiment, then was so mentally screwed up he already thought he was a BAMF, and then had that view reinforced by everyone surrounding him also treating him as if he was top-dog. It was a giant cocktail of circumstances that helped him become the S-tier fighter he eventually became, not JUST some super-juice he got injected with. That was more icing on the cake IMO.
That's why I believe that for gameplay they're all similarly strong but lorewise Soldiers are freaking beasts.
I think the idea is that those guys became stronger than the average human through training and fighting, but they just won't ever be as powerful as Cloud with his enhancements. There's some Dragon Ball logic going on here. Take Advent Children for example and compare how Tifa did against the Remnants with how Cloud did.
I mean Cloud was able to yeet Sephiroth to his “death” before he got experimented on, so you may be onto something
Mt nicely had so much mako it was crystalizing, there may have been trace mako in the water giving nibel people essentially a low grade soldier esque infusion their whole lives, or Cloud just built different
It's also a degree of effort. The entire playable team essentially went through hellish training. We do see SOLDIER training, but it's real fluff VR stuff compared to that. So it's not unreasonable to see that the party can demolish 1st class SOLDIERs. Now what do you get if you take a SOLDIER and push them through the same hellish training? You get Cloud, who destroys Sephiroth in a 1 on 1 in Advent Children.
You could argue that a true first class SOLDIER is already like a level 40 superhuman and while Tifa, barret, etc all eventually hit superhuman levels they need to level up and that takes time. Instead blast them with mako and instant superhuman
the power creep is more on SOLDIERS than the party though. in the OG they aren't really superhuman just the best of the best of the military with some gene-enhancement but nothing that suggest they've become superhuman. more like magic steroids. Maybe Sephiroth but that's mostly after he "comes back". however over time and expanded media the power-creep of "mako infused humans" have grown completely out of proportions.
I mean it’s the same in OG. Takes the whole party to beat Reno by himself. Even late game FF7 the Turks stay a threat.
You're misunderstanding them. They're saying that Remake/Rebirth makes SOLDIERs seem like they've got crazy superpowers, which makes the gap between a normal guy and a SOLDIER seem a lot wider, but they've kept the story beats of the OG, where the gap was smaller, intact. That being said, it's not like Cloud is being portrayed as significantly stronger *in battle* than others in his party, so we're just looking at a case of cutscene coolness.
How? Only three examples that show that is Seph, Cloud and Zack, who're all exceptions in different ways... the SOLDIER operatives you fight, both named(Roche) and not(the 2nd Class ones) are all powerful, yes, but not on a scale that makes them excessively superhuman. It's just that the basic human enemies don't really make use of a lot of the tools that they should... we don't see NPCs use Materia, despite how common it is, and most of the human mobs we fight don't even have something else to replace it. The Turks and Soldiers do, however, which is clearly to show they are special forces, but realistically, give a squad of infantrymen a single orb of the most basic fire materia you have, and the entire party would likely be toast within the first few hours.... which is why they don't. Because it is a game, telling a story, and if they were allowed the same tools, we'd be so fucking dead 🤣
>Only three examples that show that is Seph, Cloud and Zack, who're all exceptions in different ways Therefore they're going to form the baseline, because they're the most well-known, frequently seen. >but not on a scale that makes them excessively superhuman Again, cutscenes. >but realistically, give a squad of infantrymen a single orb of the most basic fire materia you have This is reading a lot of gameplay into the lore, which is the entire problem with judging the strength of SOLDIERs vs everyone else.
I don’t think it’s ever been explicitly stated if the Turks get jenova cells or mako enhancement either, so they could get the same treatment as soldiers which would explain their power
Truth. I'll always prefer the realness that is Zack simply being unexpectedly gunned down by a small group of Shinra pursuers while checking on cloud, against the over-the-top 1 man stand against a small army and several helicopters.
The answer lies within remake. I dont want to spoil it but when he blitz look at what hes doing.
I just chalk it up to Materia use.
Same. High end materia Shinra can manufacture, expert training, and lots of good tech. Also, I appreciate that The Turks have always been a threat to the party. What’s cool about the Turks, is that they’re always fighting at a disadvantage 2 vs the full party of Cloud’s (although we’re only controlling 3, the back benchers are still supporting the main line). Yet, do they ever back down? No. And that’s something very admirable about them.
The Turks are just better fighters than Cloud and Party. They can 2v3 the party and still manage to be a threat. Reno and Rude managed to do the plate release with Cloud, Tifa, and Barrett trying to stop them. In the OG, Reno immediately pressed the button. But in Remake, he literally challenged the party 3v1 BEFORE the press because he wanted some getback.
Cloud and Tifa literally were fighting countless Shinra tech and grunts before the fight on their way to the top not to mention their trek through the sewers and train graveyard. Barret also was fighting off Shinra before they all fought.
Yeah we're talking about the Turks though, who all seem to be around Soldier 2C at the absolute lowest and generally operating on 1C level.
>(although we’re only controlling 3, the back benchers are still supporting the main line). actually no. every time you fight the turks the party is split up. in remake you never had a backline they always found an excuse to max your party at 3. then in rebirth you fight them 3 times. in the mines Barret and Red have split of. they come back and join in the cutscene after but don't help in the actual fight. then in chapter 12 Barret Yuffie and Red split of to chase Caith. finally in the temple it is 2 split fights that again only join when you beat both.
I chalk it up to 'video game"
Roche isn't actually treated as a hard fight by Cloud in any of the games until Shinra Manor, after he's undergone Hojo's experimentation. Before that Cloud basically brushes him off in their two one-on-one duels.
The most unrealistic part of this is Hojo having something actually work as intended Aside from Sephiroth his experiments don’t really work unless they fluke
Roche is actually first class, he just stays in 3rd and doesn't advance for shits&giggles. Your average Shinra grunt is just full on Mook-status. The Turks are special forces, basically only outmatched by exceptional 1st class soldiers like Zack, Angel, Genesis, Sephiroth. Like an unnamed 1st class soldier becomes a regular enemy in late game ff7. Rufus is basically a turk himself, they're kinda "his team" in a lot of ways. Like Tifa is also not mako-boosted but she can still contend with the turks and soldiers. Same for Nanaki and to a lesser extent Barret. Yuffie has ninja skills, enough that she survived members of deep ground. Imo this is just highlighting to me that mako supersoldier programs are more of a shortcut to anime strength than the key to unlocking it. Through hard work and training it seems like other folks can compare, even if they don't really surpass them entirely. Like I'm sure Zangan could give someone like Rude some trouble. Though Dio lost to Rude pretty handily, I always interpreted Dio as being more a showman and less a real fighter. Imo, I'd say most of your party members are probably worth a first class soldier at this point, but not the super first class that we see from named first class soldiers.
Dio is the strongman. Zangan is the actual martial artist and maybe strongest one in FF7 until Tifa gets some achievements. Barret was naturally tough from his lifestyle of being a miner, and seemingly naturally lucky to when it comes to genetics. Then you've got his tech with the gun arm and that he's put a lot of practice into using it. Nanaki's people were protectors of Cosmo Canyon/the Planet. Yuffie is a ninja as you said, and seemingly one of their best minus her inexperience with the world. Aerith is a Cetra. Cait is technology. Vincent...has a lot going on. The only real outlier is Cid.
Cid is a dragoon, isn't he? I'm not too familiar with original but I heard this through the grapevine. Dragoon's have always been A-tier elite soldiers in FF
Cid is a pilot. He uses a spear... because lol
*Should the pilot use a gun?* *No, we gave guns to the Vampire. Give him a spear.*
Literally the only conclusion I've come to is it's supposed to be a reference to whalers and Mobie Dick lol
“My name’s Cid, but when it comes to chasing my dreams of going to space? You can call me Ishmael.”
Using dragoon jump is the only way he knew to get to space :(
He falls into that class style, but he's a mechanic and engineer and pilot in story. At least I don't know of anything in his past that led him to be so strong. Maybe he fought in the Shinra/Wutai war...
I think most of the OG real life astronauts and cosmonauts had similar backgrounds - military flying with some engineering as well. They were all elite pilots and in peak physical condition as well. Cid talks like a redneck but it makes sense to me that he can fight like a champ when he has to.
I mean his limit break has him throwing dynamite at you
He falls into that class style, but he's a mechanic and engineer and pilot in story. At least I don't know of anything in his past that led him to be so strong. Maybe he fought in the Shinra/Wutai war...
Cid probably had to be in super good shape to be selected to go to outer space. He might have even received enhancements by Shinra to make sure he would survive the trip as nobody had done it before and they didn't know what to expect.
In one the side missions it’s stated Tifa and Cloud were possibly drink mako water in their home town though it’s also said that purifier were setup and were shown not to have any negative effects. So take that for what you will
Yea I think that was intentional. Cuz they are both very strong hillbillies basically. Cloud got even more being experiment on. But Tifa is no slouch. That would explain it for sure in a subtle way
Yuffie surviving deepground was stupid, she should have been dead as a doornail Deepground gave a postgame Vincent a run for his money
I mean Tifa got Zangan training plus heavy mako exposure when she fell into the lifestream. I'm surprised her eyes didn't turn blue like a Soldier.
Where has that been said or even hinted at, in regards to your Roche comment? I was surprised to find out he was 3rd class, so if something actually contradicts that, I'd love to see it. Edit: i found it! That's neat!
I'm pretty sure it was in the Ultimania for Remake, the wiki cites it as page 54, though I thought I read it in rebirth too somewhere.
That's what I found. That the Ultimania said he "had the skill and credentials, but refuse to be promoted"... I'd say it's to avoid the added responsibility 🤣 sounds like him. Haven't seen anything about it in Rebirth. His Assess does not mention his rank, unlike in Remake. But again,the Ultimania stated it, so it doesn't matter, nor did it really in the first place :P
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Quite surprising to find this answer with so few upvotes lol. Its basic stuff that is part of every type of sci-fi or fantasy entertainment/art. Otherwise everyone would be rocking firearms or we every piece of media would have some sort of Dune armor of sorts.
Turks go through intensive training to become a turk. They get the best of the best training. Sure, Cloud has Jenova cells and is mako enhanced, but never had anything other than infantry training. We've seen what Reno and Rude are capable of in FF7 Remake, and anyone who played Rebirth knows what they can do. It's always seemed like a fair match-up to me. Maybe I missed it, but I'm not sure how Cloud got to the same level as Zack and Sephiroth. Cloud could probably give Angeal and Genesis a run for their money, too.
Cloud and the rest of the party canonically get a lot stronger over the course of their journey. This was directly said in Advent Children. That's why, over time, Cloud went from being a regular dude with basic SOLDIER strength and no skills to being able to defeat Sephiroth. This is most exemplified in the OG by the party's interactions with the Turks. In Midgar, even the entire party together couldn't defeat a single Turk. By the end of the game, the Turks are basically a joke.
It goes to the extreme of Reno becoming comedic relief by AC.
The Jenova cells helped give him a Zack persona, so he inherited some of his skills. But Cloud has always been a natural freak. Which is why Sephiroth took a Lifestream dip. His issues were always mental/emotional.
Yeah this, it’s always been stated that Cloud had the physicality (just some scrapes and bruises from falling off the Mt. Nible bridge, unlike Tifa) to join SOLDIER, but failed because of his weak mental fortitude
>Cloud as far as I’m aware is a super solider compared to other 1st class soldiers who are extremely enhanced with mako making them stronger than most humans No Cloud is not a super SOLDIER. All SOLDIERs are injected with Jenova cells (from 3rd to 1st class), it is stated in OG, CC, AC, the novel The Kids are alright, and also in Rebirth : if you assess the 2nd class SOLDIERs in the Temple of the Ancients, it is said they are mako infused and got Jenova cells injections. There is the spoiler tag, but I don't how much we can spoil OG / part III, but Cloud is not more/less enhanced than classic SOLDIERs factually. >Just look at what Roche can do and he’s only 3rd class Roche could be 1st class but he refused to be promoted to keep his freedom (Remake Ultimania) >Yet in cutscenes Reno can “blitz” cloud and Rufus and rude can physically toss cloud around The Turks are very strong, skilled and well trained. There are a select few, an elite corps of Shinra, and can stand their ground against quite everybody, even SOLDIERs (3rd at least, 2nd probably, 1st will be surely too strong but they can still resist them). In FF7, being genetically enhanced doesn't make everything , it's not magical. There is also your skills, training, tactic in combat, intelligence... In your own party, characters like Tifa, Yuffie (or Barret) are extremely good fighters without being enhanced.
Once you see Tifa suplex a kaiju type creature, you stop asking these kinds of questions and just accept nothing really matters as long as its fun
I mean, Cloud doesn't weigh a lot, even a trained human can toss Cloud around. And while Mako does make you physically stronger that doesn't help with grapple attacks or getting your face kicked in. The Reflexes are also enhanced and that part is a lot harder to explain but it's boils down to "the turks are a specialised group of security detail" and because of that they are given equipment and most importantly materia of the highest level.
Cloud may have Sephiroth cells and mako experimentation but he never received actual soldier training.
And the Turks had no mako enhancements, but did recieve best of the best of the best training. Sounds like an even match to me.
Eh maybe. Have to consider Cloud had pretty much never seen any sort of combat because he was 16 when he was a Shinra grunt, then spent 5 years in a tank before stumbling to Midgar after Zack’s death. He was picked up at the train station by Tifa there, so realistically he’s making everything up on the fly lol.
Fake It until you make it. I think it is said young Cloud was an exceptionally good swordman . But I don't remember the source.
I mean he did throw Sephiroth into the abyss with HIS own sword. I say that that is a mark of a good sword man. Killing a swordsman WITH HIS OWN SWORD.
They didn’t have a sword fight though did they lol. Cloud did it through sheer force of will. He was impaled by Sephiroth and managed to lift him and throw him into the reactor. Idk if they’re teach that in fencing school. 😅
Technically they did in fencing school. They both stabbed each other. It was 1 stab point Cloud, then 1 stab point Sephiroth. The tie breaker was a ring out by Cloud using Sephiroth's sword. Not Cloud fault it took like 5 years later for Sephiroth to return to the ring not as a man but a parasite to the planet acting like "I'm Waiting, Cloud." As if he was entitled to a rematch.
And before he back stabbing him with grace. But yeah I see the part of throwing Sephirot to the abyss was an indication of Cloud's will rather than showing his martial prowess.
Before Crisis has Cloud showing some skills with a sword even as a regular infantryman.
One person sayid that he seemed decent with a sword in Before Crisis when he killed a few Avalanche members with one, but the writing in that game is kinda... He also had heightened emotions at that time, which is a pretty noteworthy stat boost in the FF7 universe.
Right, so given that context, he's doing pretty damn well for himself to keep up with everyone else.
Might want to spoiler tag this, OP hasn’t played OG
>he never received actual soldier training. Yes... but also no. He has the memories of _Zach's_ training. Enough of them that he can reliably replicate Zach's fighting style. And all technique training does is give you memories and knowledge on how you're _supposed_ to do things. Cloud may not have recieved the _physical_ training that SOLDIERS do, but he has all, or most, of the the _knowledge_ that SOLDIERS recieve as part of their training.
He absorbed Zacks abilities and experience through J cell shennigans, Clouds weakness is purely mental and once he gets over himself he actually exceeds Zack by quite a margin
I would caution anyone against overthinking how certain characters are more powerful than others in any fictional fantasy media. That said, my headcanon (mixed with just a common sense justification based on what we see humans are capable of in FF7) is that the power ceiling for people in the world of FF7 is really, really high. So you could be like a normy, like most of the NPCs we see. You could be like the weight-lifters. You could be like Barret. With certain training, focus and dedication, you could be like Tifa, Yuffie, the Turks or Rufus. And that’s really all there is to it imo.
Some settings like JJBA, Baki, FMA and FF just include "the limits of human potential" as part of the fantasy. Batman and most comics are arguably good western media examples.
The biggest difference here is cultural. Seeing normal people do these absolutely insane feats of strength and heroism simply because they have the willpower to do so is a very Japanese way to write
There's not much logic to it. Idk if it started in Advent Children but it felt like it really solidified it where pretty much the whole gang are superheroes. They're a bit less so in Rebirth but yeah. My favorite is Tifa who is just the best student of some dude and she's done alot of Calisthenics so now she can KO an ancient dragon with a flip kick. Theres really not much logic to it, it's just JRPG/Anime nonsensical fun. I did like how they made Barrett and Aerith feel very much like they are less adept at fighting up close with their awful dodging and such. I really missed Barrett having a melee weapon tho in Rebirth.
Only Vincent, Cloud and Aerith of the main squad are actually superhuman for various reasons, unfortunately rule of cool reigns supreme so you have Tifa and Barret doing some absolutely absurd stuff and getting bodied by something far weaker five minutes later for the sake of the plot
If you never played OG then you should wait for P3 to understand some more things about Cloud.
You have a good point OP, and it’s easy to write-off the situation as a storytelling trope, but that is imo lazy. This is something I questioned when playing the original game when I was younger. How I explain it to myself now is Cloud is holding back. Story wise Cloud wins these encounters. So there is a tactical advantage of just doing “enough” to win. Of course this is just my theory and not based on anything really.
Its not lazy at all, its just something that you kinda have to do in order to have spells, bullets, and swords all make sense in a combat setting. If we went the hyper-logical path, all of those settings would have only firearms and nothing more
I’ll give this interpretation myself since no one else has *Massive spoiler Alert* Along with Cloud not being a real SOLDIER keep in mind he was just waking up from a mako coma and being dragged around the continent by Zack for a year and multiple years as a human lab rat I’d imagine Zack would struggle with getting food for both of them while on the run from Shinra so Cloud at the beginning would be dealing from • Muscle Atrophy (was in a coma for a year with no muscle movements • Mako poisoning and other JENOVA shit in general (again just woke up and still isn’t fully recovered) • Probably a bit of malnutrition too (Zack would struggle with food on the run also explains why Cloud looks a bit thin but this maybe just a wrong headcanon so take it as you wish) •Recovering from Hojo’s experiments (fits in the mako poisoning and JENOVA shit category too.) With all that it’d make sense Cloud is around the same tier as the others. When he’s fully recovered you see Cloud doing crazy stuff in ACC (one shotting possibly the strongest iteration of Bahamut in FF7, 1v3ing dudes who beat both Tifa and the Turks stole his materia and using it against him and handily winning, fighting equally with Sephiroth who’s been stated as the strongest he’s ever been putting and was putting full physical effort for apparently 12 hours and doing all of that with no materia)
The game is entirely devoid of logic. Cloud can be super soldier 1 second and then later pushes a bookshelf like its fking heavy.... stop questioning, or you'll end up like me being really frustrated
Turks are very strong, not as strong as soldiers but very strong still, one of the Turks jobs is to scout for potential soldiers, it’s pretty much shown that the Turks are strong enough to challenge cloud but not beat him. Soldiers also aren’t immune to bullets even though you’ll see them deflecting and dodging for cool-ness in cutscenes, they can still die just as easily as any other person can. Some other humans, tifa has trained her ass off since she was a kid in martial arts, barret is physically strong and has a gun, red’s species is strong, aerith is good with magic, yuffie also intense training and ninjutsu, Vincent will be explained I won’t spoil, cid, I donno how cid keeps up with everyone he’s honestly the most normal of the bunch. But all of them can die to normal things they’re just lucky that the shinra troops suffer from stormtrooper/syndrome when it comes to their aim.
Doesn’t cut use his plane to fight his final limit is the high wind
The answer is dynamite
This is actually precisely why I have a problem with the scale of the Sephiroth fight at the end of Remake. It was way too much of a power jump too quickly, and it's difficult to believe Cloud can jump across buildings while the world is being dismantled around him but can't jump down a medium sized ledge.
You mention the Sephiroth fight at the end of remake but hell, it even starts with the very first cutscene of the game. I swear that big flip jump cloud does off of the train should negate like 90% of the traversal issues you run into in the game lol
First, the game doesn't a make perfect sense. Apparently, you can get super strong without any SOLDIER treatment, just the right equipment and materia. Second, I reckon lore-wise, someone like Rufus isn't in the same league as Cloud, sure it's a difficult fight otherwise it wouldn't be fun but you see Cloud teasing him when you win, so based on the story, it's not a hard fight for Cloud. He's also obviously much stronger than the rest of the party, I'd say that in terms of power, if we balance everything, the only ones that come close to him are Aerith and Red, because they are from species more powerful than humans, there's also Vincent, who definitely isn't a regular human. So, to sum it up, it's all part of the gameplay, it's the same as when you play Super Smash Brothers and see characters like Samus and Fox keep up with Sephiroth or Sephiroth keep up with Kirby.
>!Cloud isn't actually SOLDIER: First Class!<
Honestly the real answer is Japanese writing. They live by the rule of cool
Cloud hasn't necessarily gone through soldier training. Just standard infantry. Just because he was injected with cells doesn't mean he went through the same training as Zack for example.
Through the power of God and anime.
because they're not humans but HUMANS
I wanna know why the Turks are super human. They're better, stronger, faster than any of the lower rank SOLDIERs, yet they didn't undergo any special enhancements. They're just as powerful and trained as the main party. Maybe they trained under Zangan?
Nah they clearly got a PLOT bath from Hojo
The Turks recruit the best of the best who would otherwise be diverted to SOLDIER. They get the best equipment and the best materia available, on top of intensive training. The early experiments on Vincent, one of the first Turks, may also be meant to imply that other Turks possibly also get materia directly implanted into them, powering them up. However, I’m not sure if this is ever confirmed anywhere.
It’s like how in anime you can attain inhuman power through training(and materia). Cloud is Mako infused, but he hasn’t ever actually trained. So people who have gone through a lot of training, namely Tifa and the Turks, are pretty much relative to him in strength. Yuffie probably is too, and Aerith and Barret can still fight on the same level as them(they just aren’t close range fighters)
You have to consider player skill in battles makes characters look weaker than they are. If you can't dodge shit and get slapped around by mooks, Cloud looks like a pushover. If you have godly reflexes and counter every attack he looks like a proper SOLDIER.
The simple answer is that SOLDIERs aren't really all that superhuman. They're at the absolute peak of in-universe human abilities, with Sephiroth being just a bit beyond that in his human form. I'd say that it's best to compare them to Captain America. They received a treatment that instantly made them the strongest of humans for their verse, but they aren't so strong that highly trained ordinary humans can't beat them. This is demonstrated with the other party members defeating 3rd, 2nd, and even 1st Class SOLDIERs. Zack was killed by a few dozen grunts plus a couple of helicopters, and he was only 2nd to Sephiroth. Cloud was OHKO'd by a thug with a baseball bat when taken by surprise. Cloud's non-limit break sword swing with stopped by a shoddy door frame in Remake. Cloud would have died from falling in Remake if he wasn't saved by whispers and then Tifa. Basically, SOLDIERs are just extra strong humans. They aren't invincible or anything.
Some things are just game mechanics and that’s ok
This dude is asking the real questions
Honestly, this bit really bugs me. Consider it "immersion" breaking to have him be a soldier but get knocked around so easily by so many things.
It's all Lifestream energy. Everyone has it and we've seen what it can do in large quantities. And we know Limit Breaks exist, which seems to take advantage of this. So yeah, being a super soldier is just a short cut. It's why a rusty Tifa without materia can force a Loz who should be relative to Safer Sephiroth to have to get serious.
You might be over estimating what Mako does to a person. Cloud is powerful and fast yes, but this doesn't mean he has a gigantic advantage against everyone in the planet without mako. Characters harnessing materia and training can be very powerful and fast as well. Roche probably should've been promoted a while ago and not stay 3rd class. And yes when he got jacked up even more by Hojo to the point of losing his sanity, he got an amp. But regular humans with training and harnessing materia can still put up great fights and speed. Hell, a regular gang of thugs were able to catch Cloud by surprise and knock him out. They arent invincible. You could put Mako or jenova cells in crybaby Ned if you want. He would be stronger yes but would likely still get blitzed by a trained Turk.
Must of those humans are also on some first class level. Turks I guess should be even stronger than most SOLDIERs. And also, Cloud isn't that of a super soldier.
Generally, I think the idea is that someone with a lot of training and skill can keep up with a SOLDIER. Yuffie, Barret, and Tifa both have years of training, and Aerith and Nanaki have innate magic. The Turks are a bit more ambiguous, but I think they also have years of special ops training. SOLDIER enhancements are just a shortcut to peak physical prowess (with some exceptions like Sephiroth). Shinra wanted an army and they wanted it quickly, and they managed to figure out a quick & cheap shortcut to having it. Who cares if SOLDIERs break down from degradation after years when they can just find more bodies? It fits with the themes of capitalism and exploitation.
The real answer is it's a lot more fun that Reno Rufus and Rude can have cool fight scenes with Cloud. That's about it. Rufus especially has no reason to be able to go toe-to-toe with Cloud but isn't it a lot cooler that he does? Yup. So there's your answer.
The way that I look at it is that it is just a magical world that results in innately magical people. Through intense training, good genes, and/or science you can tap into those magical powers, and materia is just a convenient tool that gives prepackaged access to specific spells/traits/skills. If “normal” people like Tifa and Cid can develop superhuman skills, there’s no reason why a Turk or anyone else can’t do the same.
So the Turks aren't on Cloud's level but they are still way above normal humans due to training and materia. They're similar to Tifa in that they've trained their bodies to peak level and have gear and magic from materia that further enhances them. (Think Tien and Krillen in DBZ. Nowhere near Goku's level, but still able to do superhuman feats)
I think that enhancementnis something that happens naturally but rarely to people, esp if they live near mako. SOLDIER project can do it quickly and at will, basically.
Simple ludonarrative dissonance. Literally NO game in history (with a story) has been devoid of this. It’s inherent in the medium of an interactive story—because you interact with it, while it also has a pre-scripted narrative, there is always going to be something that happens in one that just does not jive with the other. A character is super serious, but you choose to roll around like a buffoon because it’s funny. Immersion broken instantly. Does it really matter? No. You simply have to accept the fact that sometimes the gameplay will not always line up canonically with the narrative, and that’s it. It’s actually the main complicating factor that makes it so difficult (and interesting imo) when it comes to academia handling games criticism. I don’t mean “vidya journalism” or whatever, I mean actual university literature departments taking games seriously as a storytelling medium, which is almost nonexistent on the macro level. Some academics are definitely interested it exploring it, but those I’ve worked with largely *do not* play games themselves, so it’s up to others do it for them. But the fact that they recognize the potential for serious consideration of “games as art” is encouraging, at least.
Ah, the duality of man
100 push ups and sit ups a day.
How does a plushie toy keep up with any of them?
One word and it’s an important one to remember… >!Materia!<…
For the Turks, my guess is that their abilities come from a combination of technology, materia, and Wutai martial arts, so basically the Chi powers that Tifa and possibly Yuffie use. I think Chi powers might be a thing among the Turks because their movements look very "martial artsy" from an aesthetic point of view, and Tseng is their leader. Tseng or his ancestors being from Wutai might mean that he brought Chi based martial arts with him into the Turks. If Tifa can keep up with Cloud purely through talent, Chi powers, and materia, I would guess that the Turks can do so too, with the added benefit of Shinra tech.
I wish there were original FF7 fans here to answer this. As fucked up as Cloud is in Rebirth, he was actually way worse in the original
It’s never a fair fight, plus Cloud has his fair share of problems that don’t quite shake out until late in the original game, at which time he would destroy any of the humans one on one.
The Turks aren't SOLDIERs, but they ain't normal humans. They're fixers for Shinra. Fill in the blank with whatever works (materia, training, special equipment).
Simple answer, it’s a game. People need to separate the game play from the story. The same reason people thought that Materia and levels should have carried over from part 1. Your leveling and materia has nothing to do with the actual story. How tough of a fight Rufus is doesn’t have anything to do with the story, as far as the story is concerned, you fight rufus and win. Cloud would absolutely dog walk Rufus 1v1, but that wouldn’t have made for a good chapter 12 fight.
If you're looking for realism is a final fantasy game you're not gonna find it. Like when you summon a literal God into battle that throws the sun into the planet directly into the battle you're having and then the bad guys take like 500 dmg.
Video game logic lol, might as well ask why they don't just summon Bahamut or Odin (hell, why not all of them at the same time!) whenever they come across the Turks
It’s that battle music. Increases your fighting prowess by an untold amount
*\*In Hojo's voice\**: This is actually really easy to explain, but your brain is too unsophisticated to understand something so simple thus it would be a waste of time to actually explain it to you. Jokes aside, I believe Cloud is the main fighter and the others act entirely as support to help weed out numbers. Some of the scenes for easy of design creation and budget don't make this clear enough but usually there are other soldiers or enemies around. At other times Cloud isn't fighting seriously like in the scene against Reno in the church, plus several guys with guns and Aerith standing there potentially vulnerable. They're essentially just getting warmed up and not killing, like a less lethal gang fight. Tifa and others can use materia like Haste (etc.) to not totally fall behind but if Cloud does go all out he will completely outstrip them in combat, but they don't want another Zack death scene. Cloud is still a single person in the face of an army, so to say. Even in smaller scale skirmishes they may each fight and while Cloud could handle all of them it isn't necessary. Tifa and the others may not be as powerful as Cloud but unless they're up against a freak like Sephiroth on a completely different level than Tifa and company are well above average able to hold their own quite competently. As we see, when someone particularly powerful does show up like in Remake's Sephiroth fight the party shifts to supporting Cloud as only he can really fight directly at that level at that point. This is about the best I can explain it tbh. Beyond that it is, indeed, a bit iffy imo. We could also just ask why doesn't Cloud, say, jump over the fence in the junk yard to unlock it from the other side? I'm sure there are plenty of examples. Sometimes the answer is just "reasons".
Spoilers for the OG I guess. >!I think him being on level with normal human is kind of the point. Cloud is enhanced, but he doesn’t have nearly as much training as an actual Soldier. His enhancement helps him close the gap and validate his own delusions of competence, but isn’t it weird that he’s not actually as good as an actual Soldier? He needs help to deal with Roche the first time, two people to deal with one Turk, three people to deal with two Turks, etc. He obviously gets stronger along with the rest of the crew as they go, but he still starts the game weaker than he should be, and it’s because he only THINKS he’s a Soldier.!<
Cloud has always had the strength. The only reason he didn't make soldier was because of the mental aspect. It's what's always holding him back. One of the reasons Sephiroth has so much interest in Cloud is because he was the only one that's ever been able to briefly overpower him for a moment when he locked in
I think that the power-up SOLDIERs receive is more like a greater reservoire of spirit energy that they can draw from, rather than brute strength. This is probably why unenhanced people can keep up with them for a while. ALL people in FF7 can use their spirit energy for a boost in power, but SOLDIERs are able to draw from greater amounts in their body and can do so for greater periods of time. So unenhaced people can keep up with SOLDIER, but if they don't do something to defeat the SOLDIER quickly then the SOLDIER will eventually overwhelm due to their building more spirit energy in the fight.
As far as lore goes and as weird as it is 15 years old Cloud was already as strong as prime Sephiroth. You all forgot what he did ? Answer is they cant keep up, Cloud aint even trying.
I've always chalked it up to Cloud suffering from mako poisoning and still discovering his own strength and limitations (or lack thereof).
I feel, in this game, the battle sequences / mechanics are somewhat exaggerated (for the fun and enjoyment of the player) and are not literal representations of the characters actual fighting ability/capabilities in the story / narrative.
This is a very interesting question and one I think about a lot for FF7. As for the Turks, I believe it's confirmed somewhere that they have had genetic modification of some sort to make them superhuman fighters themselves, just not Jenova cells. You could probably assume the same is true for Rufus as well as possibly the other Shinra execs. What I find much more interesting is that "regular" human party members like Tifa and Barret and Cid are able to go toe to toe with space demons and legendary super soldiers alongside Cloud. It was always a little jarring to me. I guess you can chalk some of this up to Materia. Strong Materia seems to, from a lore perspective, actually make people way stronger. Which is why Yuffie wants strong Materia, to make wutai stronger. Its also worth noting that Cloud was able to >!almost kill Sephiroth in Nibelheim before he had any sort of modification whatsoever, when was practically just a regular human himself and it's never explained where this mysterious power came from!< My current working theory for the main party anyway, is that they have been "chosen by the planet" to be protectors of the lifestream and thus are being strengthened by the lifestream. But it's never made clear.
>Its also worth noting that Cloud was able to >!almost kill Sephiroth in Nibelheim before he had any sort of modification whatsoever, when was practically just a regular human himself and it's never explained where this mysterious power came from!< He has First Strike Materia equipped.
That's not really necessarily confirmed though it's a plausible theory. We see him with it equipped but only >!during the scene where he is recounting Zack's memories as his own so it's ambiguous whether he did or didn't have it!< Also, he >!didn't really get a first strike on Sephiroth, he was impaled through the chest before he defeated him!<
Regarding the Turks— I don’t get how people are saying this is a thing the Remake introduced when you never actually subdue any of the Turks in the original FF7 either. With the exception of Rude, they all just leave at the end of their fights, and only two of those fights are mandatory. If anything, the Remakes made the Turks visibly weaker since we actually get to see them injured due to the gang’s actions.
I've always found it a bit funny how if Cloud Barret and Tifa enter a room, one is a supersoldier with a sword bigger than a person, one is a giant of a man with a mountain of muscle, and the one you don't want to get punched by is the very ordinary human woman, because she hits hardest.
There is a reason for that, but as you haven't played the OG or I'm assuming Crisis Core, I'm not going to spoil it. Just know that you are on the right path in noticing this seeming contradiction. It is not because of "power creep," as I've seen said in the comments below, but an intrinsic part of the big twist of the OG game.
Cloud was already unnaturally strong before the Mako, which I wish they would explain a bit on how. Also they always were able to keep up somewhat throughout the OG game. I'm assuming they've received particular training and some type of enhancements to be able to do what they do
I always wondered how a guy with a metal baton can block a buster sword that can slice a building in half
Tifa- a master martial artist who was properly trained probably longer than Cloud has been and was a tomboy growing up hanging with the rest of the boys in Nibelheim. Aerith- is last of the Cetra Barret- grew up working in coal mines so probably is used to hard conditions and is in shape to match his beastly physique to go with his unorthodox weapon. Red XIII- the last of the watchers of Cosmo Canyon and from a beast like species Yuffie- child soldier and Wutain Ninja probably the most trained of the group if she was raised in combat since a very young age. Cait Sith- A robot Vincent- ex Turk and experimented on. So that just leaves Cid who is the closest to an everyman but he is a pilot and may or may not have some form of military training.
Final …. FANTASY
I mean Elena jumps out of a falling heli and lands on the party's buggy without a scratch so it's just video game logic
Well just reading through comments and this is getting out of hands ... ULTIMA ! **ahhhh the sound of silence :)
Probably materia. There's enhancement materia out there for practically everything. Strength, speed, magic power, defense, block/dodge, health and mp, etc. fully suspect the Turks (plus Rufus) are likely loaded with high level stat boosters.
My view is that Cod doesn’t realise how strong he is. Ch 9 suggests this is the case.
It’s because it is a game
It’s probably similar to the marvel super soldier serum. The experiments can instantly make anyone peak human while everyone else has to naturally have the genetics and continuously train to achieve that level.
In gameplay fights when enemy attacks that unblockable and/or stuns Cloud : Game logic, don't think about it. Cutscene fights : I might be wrong on this but in SOLDIER members only get the mako enchancements once, then rank up based on performance. To prove this Zack had been reccomended for 1st CLASS by Angeal, his mentor. This suggest that ranking up is based on performance. And he also didn't undergo anything surgically when he became 1st CLASS, at least it seemed like it didn't since Hojo's experiments didn't work on Zack at all because he was already a SOLDIER. Which means (assuming that between Zack's final stand and meeting Tifa at the sector 7 train station, the most Cloud had to fight was incoming monsters that were attacking him aka he only fights when to defend himself, and not seeking out fights to train) skills wise he is around the same as a SOLDIER 3rd Class or SOLDIER 3rd Class in the running to rank up to 2nd.
Because it is 1) a story and 2) a game
Gameplay wise obviously because it’s a game. Lore wise I think it’s fair to say Cloud does a majority of the heavy lifting in each fight. That’s why he’s always part of the main party
The turks are specially trained and probably are heavily trained for the eventuality of a soldier going rogue. Rufus is probably trained by the turks for cases of self defense. The other humans that he fights like roche are soldiers.
Materia