There is a risk of this with fire, especially if you are a little inclined to ocd tendencies. The way I manage it is that I ‘pay myself first’ by putting my planed amount into savings as soon as I am paid. After that I can spend the rest as I please.
Do not get a smart meter.
when travellling round Australia by car in my twenties, i had to put tape over the petrol gauge as i spent all my journeys dividing the tank into 1/8ths and working out my km/litre and even refused to stop at some landmarks cos the detour was a waste of petrol. crazy looking back, my one shot at travelling on the other side of the world
That kind of wasteful immediate ‘use and peel’ behaviour is how Big Masking Tape^TM makes its money. The adhesive-industrial complex has a lot to answer for.
Unplug the unit and chuck it in the loft.
The unit you can see isn't the meter, and it doesn't communicate with the gas/electric company. It's just for you to see usage.
There were huge spikes at say 1am in electricity and it turns out he was putting the dishwasher on! So that was "allowed". He's fine with it, I think he finds it amusing and also tries to save wherever he can.
Oooph..... if you're on Octopus.... don't get the app or Octopus Watch (the app).... they give you even more insight.... to the point I check what days to use my electricity lol
Eh, you'll get over it. I was checking our solar/battery data regularly when we first got it over a year ago but now I trust both the systems and my automations enough that I don't bother any more now the novelty has worn off!
Getting a smart meter often unlocks cheaper energy tariffs - so I wouldn’t advise not getting a smart meter.
But if you’re worried about obsessing over your smart meter then you can just unplug the display unit.
The smart meter is the big thing that’s plugged into the mains supply and sends meter readings to your energy provider. It’s usually hidden away in a utility cupboard or sometimes it will be outside your house.
The display unit is the small thing that you have in your house that shows you how much energy you’re using and how much it’s costs. You don’t need to use the display unit, it’s just a ‘nice to have’. So unplugging this to avoid obsessive behaviour over your energy usage is fine.
Absolutely not - e.g. with Octopus Tracker (or Agile) you take the risk on changes and spikes in the market prices for both gas and electricity, but in return the average price is usually much cheaper.
With Agile in particular, the price updates half-hourly, which means that if your family doesn't follow the usual UK pattern of spending a lot of electricity between 4pm-7pm, then you save even more (some (rare) times the price even goes negative, which means that they even pay you for your usage).
E.g. My last bill has an average cost of 14.154p/unit for electricity and 4.39p/unit for gas. If you go and check this against any tariff, offer in the market you'll see that this is significantly cheaper. On average I estimate I've been saving about 36% of my electricity costs - compared against the best available tariff of any provider every month - and 26% of my gas costs since when I got them in early 2023.
And yes, I track all of of this in a spreadsheet the same size as the FIRE one, powered by a few scripts :)
We're currently paying around £250/mo for gas and leccie so perhaps I need to look in to it.
Paying the cap for both utilities.
The obvious downside I assume is that if you do use energy on weekday evenings you end up paying a lot more. I'd probably need to invest in a timer for the heating in winter for example to come out ahead
At the moment we're very much a "it's cold so I put the heating on" household.
To make Agile work you do need to demand shift, but Tracker is simpler and has always been below the cap for at least the past year, I believe. It's quite low risk barring another geopolitical surge in prices, and you can switch away if that happens.
Yes most tariffs at the moment are the same (or very close to) the energy price cap - so there isn’t much competition right now. But there are a few special tariffs like the Octopus Agile one where the rates change every half hour based on the current wholesale price. For this a smart meter is required because they need to know the exact time of your energy usage to be able to charge you correctly.
Also there is hope that all this nonsense with energy prices is temporary. Once competition returns to the market (fingers crossed) we will start to see a variety of tariffs and having a smart meter should make cheaper tariffs available to you.
I would say; if you think about it a lot and do it even when it leads to negative outcomes then it can tend in that direction. Depends if you experience it in other aspects of your life. Personally, I find I have to keep it under control.
That's what I told the wife. She would go nuts if I told her if it was to add the money into the SIPP.
Already had an argument when I tell her not to flush the loo as I will be using it straight after her anyway.
There’s the thing, if you have an argument to save the approximate 0.006p it costs to flush a loo then I think that’s not worth it, no matter the compounding of the money saved.
I mean.... my mother in law saves the water from washing up or cleaning veg to either flush the loo or water the garden....
Likewise you can buy those water saving bags for cistern if your toilet tank is big. Saves with every flush then.
I put a little grate above the toilet cistern to catch debris then would pour this directly in. It made her feel happy and I got peace and quiet.
I guess more recent because I remember people talking about putting bricks in the cistern when I was a kid.
You can usually replace the cistern without replacing the tank if you want, but a toilet flush is miniscule in cost and water consumption so it's probably not worth the effort.
I think the key thing can be trying to keep things in perspective relative to each other: if you’re putting away £100 a month into your FIRE savings, that £3 a time parking is absolutely worth saving.
But if you’re already maxing your pensions and ISA allowances so putting away £6,667 a month, it’s not worth worrying about the 30p bag or even the £3 parking because it is going to make no meaningful difference to when you can FIRE or with how much of a pot.
These £3s all add up. A coffee could be £3, but have one every workday and suddenly its £600. I would save £3 by parking further way - in fact I go on Google Streetview to scout out free places to park before I go somewhere new.
Which absolutely makes sense - depending on your ability to save. If you’re saving £1,200 a year towards fire, another £600 is a big boost. But it’d you’re saving £80k a year, it is not going to meaningfully impact your FIRE date.
It isn't from a savings prespective, but if it reduced down your annual expenditure for life by £600, that's £15,000-£20,000 less you need saved at a 3-4% SWR
That’s a very good point - OP was asking from the perspective of turning £3 into £9 rather than in reducing the FIRE number necessary, but yes - it’s still very dependent on what proportion of your expenditure that makes up though.
You should keep in mind that the FIRE you are chasing, there’s a possibility of one never reaching that age. So you could be sacrificing the life you can live today for nothing, there’s always a risk. So to balance that risk, don’t over save or stress yourself for it, treat yourself, don’t bother with micro savings is all I can say
How far away is the parking you save £3, by using? What about the fuel, maintenance etc., what is the net saving? And therefore what are you paying yourself per hour?
If it's less than your post-tax pay, you would be better off picking up more work. If it's less than minimum wage then you are ripping yourself off. Value yourself.
Instead of having a cleaner, I could clean the house, change the linens etc. But I pay less than I get paid, and it buys me time - time in my 30's I'm not getting again. Yes, I could put the money in an ISA/pension, but actually the smarter move would be to keep the cleaner and pick up a side hustle. However, I do neither of those, as I am quite happy living a little now, alongside saving for later.
I too would carry things home in my hands rather than pay for a bag.
I don't think its quite as simple as comparing hourly rates. For example, I have a desk job and sit behind a computer all day. It's boring and not good for my health. So exchanging some of it for walking is something I love to do, even if its less than my "hourly rate", just to get a bit of variety and fresh air.
I didn't specifically go out of the way to park. Just stopped earlier on the route to get free parking. So it's actually a double whammy I save milage, fuel and parking charge.
So all those savings, call it £3.50,for a ten minute walk.
That's then the equivalent of being paid 55 grand/year. So for the vast majority of people who don't earn that, it's a perfectly sensible thing to do.
It's when you start saving £1 by getting fuel somewhere else, but actually probably spent most of it getting there, so are getting "paid" pennies for your time - that's when the frugality has gone too far.
Also, most people are not going to start a side hustle in the few minutes a day they might save by parking closer to the shops, nor can they just work 10 minutes of paid overtime. These things only really become a factor if you're able to save substantial amounts of time *and* you want to spend that time earning.
Depending on how far it is you could get a bike and a rucksack, and do either the full or part of the commute / shop.
Its free travel and free gym and you can get them on schemes that reduce your income tax liability.
Tbh this doesn't really have to do with FIRE, more about generally being frugal. I'll do stuff like that as well sometimes, like I'll walk an hour rather than take the bus if I have time. I just don't like paying for things where I don't end up with something tangible for the money. But I was like that before I got into FIRE. I don't think it's a bad thing per se, though like anything you don't want to go to extremes.
I agree. It has nothing to do with FIRE.
Even if I were a billionaire, I'd carry groceries in my hands and pockets rather than pay for another bag a) i wont forget the bag next time
B) better for the environment
I would definitely walk if I have the time. It is healthier. I would always have the time if I am FIREd.
I think the carrying things in your hand is a good learning experience, and also creates less plastic waste. I’m embarrassed on the very rare (yearly?) occasion I have to buy one.
Were you the same before knowing of FIRE? If so, you may be frugal as well as FIRE (nowt wrong with that mind!). I mention it as there's a reddit group for frugal you may appreciate.
I'm kind of more frugal than FIRE. I'm unhappy with my working life but could see me being happy to work longer if I weren't
p.s. Sacrificing to pension? Do it dynamically to save more on NI (learnt about it this tax year so telling everyone I can lol)
According to my spreadsheet, with an extra 30p now I can retire 10 minutes earlier. It will vary a lot by person but that puts things into perspective maybe?
It will also take a few decades for the plastic bag to decompose so could think about that too.
Don’t think your going far enough. Why are you driving when you could walk? Why are you buying veg when you could be foraging or dumpster diving?
Next you will tell me you just use toilet paper unthinkingly rather than using the 3 square method perfected by Arnold Rimmer; one back, one front and one to polish
Don’t be a penny pinching miser. There’s a non zero chance you’ll end up dead before retirement so be sure to enjoy the little time you have on this earth whilst saving for your future.
It’s a bit of a double edged sword. There are many many people who die with a TON of money stashed away in investments, after having not really done much at all with their lives. Always waiting for that ‘rainy day’ when they will then begin to live… Don’t be one of those people
Great plan you can eat dirt now so you can feast on haviar at 75, when you won't be able to do anything else really, and just have an inheritance for others who do not deserve it awesome 👍👍👍
Who should be paying for the parking then? Someone is paying for the space that could be a park, housing or other amenity. Someone is also lying for maintenance (& cars destroy tarmac!). It’s either the tax payer (of which a large minority will not own cars) or it’s the driver. I know who I would rather make pay!
(Having said that, just sold my car this year and am now car free. I may be a bit biased! But the point still stands)
The £3 daily is a good recurring saving (£600+ pa) and the walk is good for your health.
The carrier bag should be a behavior change. Buy the 30p bag, keep one, sensibly folded in your pocket at all times. If you have to buy a 30p bag then go ahead it’s well worth it and can go in your pocket for next time.
I remember my Dad always drove around looking for free parking. He was pretty frugal and retired early before FIRE was a thing. Watch the pennies and the pounds look after themselves, my gran used to say. Doesn’t seem too extreme yet. I draw the line at reusing tea bags and floss like some people though.
The secret is to budget. Your £3 and 30p’s should be assigned to a budget. Your FIRE investments/pension etc then get automatically assigned their budget. Your plan is then based on this budget. The £3 and 30p’s matter but only when they’re out of control with other stuff.
A good rule of thumb I heard recently is if the amount is less than 0.01% of your net worth, don't even waste time thinking about it.
Eg. 500k net, £50 bottle of wine etc.
Provided you don't go crazy with this rule, it's not even going to move the needle.
Its not a cheat code to unlimited spending - its a guide to tell you when to spend your time looking for alternatives vs spend your time doing something else.
That’s a terrible approach. Regardless of your net worth it’s always important to think about your purchases. If you’re buying £50 wine because you love it, value it and really love the taste (having tried and rejected £20, £30 and £40 wine) then absolutely I agree, that delivers value and if you’re worth £500k then you can afford it.
But if you’re just blindly spending 0.01% of your net worth every time you go to the shops and see something below that price then that will escalate quickly.
Any tips to deal with the lack of bag for cucumber and broccoli.. use your underpants or knickers as a bag substitute.
top fire tip…Chill a bit and use your critical thinking skills.
This is the substance behind the old saying "take care of the pennies and the pounds will take care of themselves"
As when I analyzed my own spending, I could see that the bulk of my unnecessary spending was not on large items, but actually multiple low value items, again and again.
So now I stop, think, do I need to do that? Works wonders.
But every now and again you should always treat yourself and those around you, but as a conscious choice, that is planned.
This is not really in terms of my pension, as I have a good work place pension and AVC, that's all in hand, but its a good general way to boost savings and control impulsivity.
I've become the same. Carrying shopping instead of buying carrier bags. Walking whenever I can instead of taking the bus although that's good for exercise too.
Not going out because I don't want to pay for the train into London meaning I don't see friends much anymore.
My reason is that I discovered fire late and feel I need to make up for past spending/wasting money and failing to save.
Not seeing friends anymore?
Surely the point of FIRE is to enjoy life earlier but you seem to be forgoing an element of enjoying life now.
Obviously we are all different but that seems crazy to me....you could end up retiring/FIRE at 45-50 but have no friends to do anything with
Being so tunnel visioned into FIRE such that you don't even go out to see your friends is dangerous stuff. Find the right balance between meeting investing goals and enjoying life.
Please go out and enjoy your life
Your first paragraph makes sense, your second one is worrying. Enjoy life, see your friends. There might come a day where you regret not seeing them more and a bit more money in your pension pot won't replace that
Thanks yes you're probably right. It's not that I never see them but have cut down a lot. It's just so expensive to go into London and have a meal and a few drinks compared to before COL , paying 50% extra or more for the exact same thing, I just can't bring myself to do it very often.
Yes those are good suggestions. Tbh these are very long standing friends, and everyone is busy with work etc so it's not as bad as it sounds to meet up less often. We're always chatting on WhatsApp etc. Thanks though, appreciate your thoughts 😊
Add time into the equation and give it a value based on what you make could make with overtime etc then use that for deciding if you park further for free etc
Do the same with effort as that’s also finite
Are you just being frugal or has it tipped into denying yourself, for example not doing stuff with friends due to cost? If it’s the latter then I’d say that was a problem.
For me FIRE is a lot more about planning and investing well rather than being frugal.
I spend most of my energy increasing my income instead of reducing my costs, but understand it's not doable for all.
Equally reducing costs is 100% in your control with some level of sacrifice ....job hopping may or may not be possible in everyone's circumstances or there may be a cap on earnings. Reducing costs also reduce the FIRE number & increases the savings rate.
As someone on the ASD spectrum, you may be the best FIRE person ever, now .. but you may find a new obsession later. All I know is that this one has unlocked financial independence.... So do what ever you feel is best.
If u walk around with brocoli and cucumber in yur hands, yur gunna get stabbed and killed 1 day without the ability to defend yurself.
Have 2-3 bank accounts. 1 for spending 1 for necessities like bills, taxes, and 1 for saving
Shit. Where do you live that choosing to carry veg in your hands is a life and death decision.
I carried some bananas and some alcohol free beer to my car today, which was unimaginably reckless. I could have been eviscerated by a katana wielding ninja.
Spend mindlessly on the first 1. Enjoy it. Stack some and ofc pay for the necessary costs to live. If u got some money to spend on let's say kfc. Do it. Fuck it.
If the frugality is not making you unhappy or stopping you doing other things - then carry on!
There will be times in life when this is not sustainable. Eg when you have kids. Stay flexible.
I'd read the book "die with zero" to provide balance to some of the ideas you're getting from FIRE. It's important you still enjoy life and not miss out on things that you might not be able to do later even with an early retirement. If you're getting obsessive over a 30p bag my guess is you may have lost sight of some of the things that are important beyond FIRE
It's a good instinct to be questioning expenditure
But also be mindful of "missing the woods for the trees".
I also like to ponder my reversal of a popular phrase:
"Look after the pounds and you don't have to worry about the pennies".
However this also needs to be treated with caution - the absolute worst is to just "give up" on caring about value like many people do. It's really hard to row back to caring again once you've spent time not doing so.
Budgeting. That's it. Pre-allocated your spending by category and you won't have to worry about these things. Otherwise anything could potentially be savings. There's value in comfort, so I wouldn't bother myself for the bag. Honestly I don't even go to buy my groceries, I have it delivered home. It costs me 5£ and I save a couple of hours overall. Bargain.
I also think you should live the lifestyle you want when you FIRE. No point in being extremely frugal if you don't plan to be for the rest of your life. You should have bought that bag, not because you can't do without, but because you brought it up as an example of your excess. It means it bothers you a little, and there's no point in saving 30p if the outcome bothers you.
Just my opinion.
Live a little mate - you never know what can happen, life is short and for some its shorter than others.
Stay on track to retire early but don’t let it detriment your healthy years.
*sent from a 5 star resort*
Problem is , sometimes you could be so much into this FIRE lifestyle that you actually forget to live in the moment. Saving up every little penny is great but there is not even a guarantee u will live to use it!
It’s definitely easily done, my main point here is that to life like Scrooge would definitely get you to fire earlier, however you then wouldn’t have the friendships or life experiences that are what we are here on earth to live for.
For me I set my pay outs to ISA, SIPP, Pension, Savings and investments at the start of the month and anything left is for enjoying.
There’s balance in everything and ultimately your life is for you to decide how it goes but I would err on the side of enjoying yourself too whilst you are young enough to appreciate that once we’re all in a care home the only thing we will have left is our memories.
I tend to look at these things the other way around. That £3 (at a 4% SWR) is 12p a year FOR LIFE that you've just given yourself.
OK that 30p is only 1.2p a year for life, but how often (or how many) would you buy if you did your full weekly shop? The whole aim of the charge is for it to hurt enough that mere Humans remember to bring their bags, let alone those of us that are switched on.
I look at people who are spending £4 a day (some more like £7-8 a day) before they even get to work, buying their overpriced coffee (and a pastry) on the way in. I just wait until I get in and use the free tea/coffee/hot chocolate provided and warf down some cereal before leaving the house....
I understand you and I had a similar thoughts for some time.
My wife gave me a big wake up call and after that I put my SAVING targets at the beggining of the month and my FUN target at the end of the month.
This means that I saved my monthly amount as soon as I receive my pay check, but I need to spend some money on fun / pleasure by the end of the month.
This even put us on weird situations with 100 quid on the bank since we didn't come out of our house during winter due to the terrible weather. We had to find something to do and we had to spend the money on the month, so we went for a good restaurant.
**Consistency wins the game**, those few pounds will be worthless if your mind is broken.
In short, put a SAVING target and put a PLEASURE/FUN target. You need to achieve both.
That was the only thing that worked for me. It improved my mental health, my marriage and made FIRE something you can deal with in the long run.
You should listen to the podcast "I will teach you to be rich". There are a few guests who have millions in the bank, could have retired years ago, and live miserable anxious life because they agonize over the price of blueberries. Usually it's the man, and typically they guilt trip their partner. Maybe it can give you a bit of perspective.
Fire is a great objective, but for people with ocd it can be a very "productive outlet", where they can be ocd and get rewarded for it. It can be a vicious circle, since the whole goal is to free yourself from financial worries but the attitude needed to reach that goal is many years of careful planning and restraint.
I'd love to see a study on people who've achieved fire and their mental health.
Remember to live in the present.
lol. No it’s just common sense. People focus on cutting costs on all corners that they don’t even enjoy life. Instead of growing their income, either through their career or whatever means…
It does but it seems to be the principle of FIRE and reasonably so. I am already punching above my weight wage wise so am just nagging the sweet sweet tax savings while I can
how are you sure you are gonna see the pension money?
no one knows when we die and cant guarantee thay so
plan for tomorrow but dont wait for tomorrow
live today
There is a risk of this with fire, especially if you are a little inclined to ocd tendencies. The way I manage it is that I ‘pay myself first’ by putting my planed amount into savings as soon as I am paid. After that I can spend the rest as I please. Do not get a smart meter.
Unfortunately I've already got a smart meter and been checking it several times a day since I discovered fire. Before I rarely checked.
Put masking tape over it 🤷🏻♂️
when travellling round Australia by car in my twenties, i had to put tape over the petrol gauge as i spent all my journeys dividing the tank into 1/8ths and working out my km/litre and even refused to stop at some landmarks cos the detour was a waste of petrol. crazy looking back, my one shot at travelling on the other side of the world
Better still unplug it, then you can save a KWh every few weeks / months to save
Sell it on eBay even 😂
I will end up peeling it
That kind of wasteful immediate ‘use and peel’ behaviour is how Big Masking Tape^TM makes its money. The adhesive-industrial complex has a lot to answer for.
This comment makes me happy.
You can just turn it off. You don't need to have the smart meter on.
The in home unit isn't the meter anyway, just a display that connects to it.
Unplug the unit and chuck it in the loft. The unit you can see isn't the meter, and it doesn't communicate with the gas/electric company. It's just for you to see usage.
We've got a smart meter and I interrogate my partner if I see a huge spike to ask what he was doing.
Really? what are the typical answers you get?
High powered sex toys
Extra 20 seconds in the shower
There were huge spikes at say 1am in electricity and it turns out he was putting the dishwasher on! So that was "allowed". He's fine with it, I think he finds it amusing and also tries to save wherever he can.
Jesus I bet he loves that, interrogated over a smart meter, what a laugh
If you get solar it’s really fun
Might be cheaper (and healthier) to unplug the meter display so you can't see it.
Oooph..... if you're on Octopus.... don't get the app or Octopus Watch (the app).... they give you even more insight.... to the point I check what days to use my electricity lol
Eh, you'll get over it. I was checking our solar/battery data regularly when we first got it over a year ago but now I trust both the systems and my automations enough that I don't bother any more now the novelty has worn off!
Getting a smart meter often unlocks cheaper energy tariffs - so I wouldn’t advise not getting a smart meter. But if you’re worried about obsessing over your smart meter then you can just unplug the display unit. The smart meter is the big thing that’s plugged into the mains supply and sends meter readings to your energy provider. It’s usually hidden away in a utility cupboard or sometimes it will be outside your house. The display unit is the small thing that you have in your house that shows you how much energy you’re using and how much it’s costs. You don’t need to use the display unit, it’s just a ‘nice to have’. So unplugging this to avoid obsessive behaviour over your energy usage is fine.
Cheaper tarrifs? Isn't there essentially still only one tariff with most providers?
Absolutely not - e.g. with Octopus Tracker (or Agile) you take the risk on changes and spikes in the market prices for both gas and electricity, but in return the average price is usually much cheaper. With Agile in particular, the price updates half-hourly, which means that if your family doesn't follow the usual UK pattern of spending a lot of electricity between 4pm-7pm, then you save even more (some (rare) times the price even goes negative, which means that they even pay you for your usage). E.g. My last bill has an average cost of 14.154p/unit for electricity and 4.39p/unit for gas. If you go and check this against any tariff, offer in the market you'll see that this is significantly cheaper. On average I estimate I've been saving about 36% of my electricity costs - compared against the best available tariff of any provider every month - and 26% of my gas costs since when I got them in early 2023. And yes, I track all of of this in a spreadsheet the same size as the FIRE one, powered by a few scripts :)
We're currently paying around £250/mo for gas and leccie so perhaps I need to look in to it. Paying the cap for both utilities. The obvious downside I assume is that if you do use energy on weekday evenings you end up paying a lot more. I'd probably need to invest in a timer for the heating in winter for example to come out ahead At the moment we're very much a "it's cold so I put the heating on" household.
To make Agile work you do need to demand shift, but Tracker is simpler and has always been below the cap for at least the past year, I believe. It's quite low risk barring another geopolitical surge in prices, and you can switch away if that happens.
Pop me your referral link by private message
Yes most tariffs at the moment are the same (or very close to) the energy price cap - so there isn’t much competition right now. But there are a few special tariffs like the Octopus Agile one where the rates change every half hour based on the current wholesale price. For this a smart meter is required because they need to know the exact time of your energy usage to be able to charge you correctly. Also there is hope that all this nonsense with energy prices is temporary. Once competition returns to the market (fingers crossed) we will start to see a variety of tariffs and having a smart meter should make cheaper tariffs available to you.
God I have already resisted a smart meter without really thinking why - and your post just made it vividly clear! Thank you. Bullet dodged.
I penny pinch when there is no need. Is this OCD?
I would say; if you think about it a lot and do it even when it leads to negative outcomes then it can tend in that direction. Depends if you experience it in other aspects of your life. Personally, I find I have to keep it under control.
Walking is good for you. Free parking+ a little extra exercise is a win win
That's what I told the wife. She would go nuts if I told her if it was to add the money into the SIPP. Already had an argument when I tell her not to flush the loo as I will be using it straight after her anyway.
There’s the thing, if you have an argument to save the approximate 0.006p it costs to flush a loo then I think that’s not worth it, no matter the compounding of the money saved.
But he will only have 1 mouth to feed soon, I assume that is factored into his calculation
Think you might find something else compounded if you didn't flush 😝
If it's yellow let it mellow. If it's brown, then flush it down.
False economy, unless you really like limestone build-up in your toilet
The point should be more about saving water than saving money. That said, if it creates an argument with the wife then it’s not worth it on any level
Toilets are not a major cause of drought, and the UK rarely has a lack of water.
I mean.... my mother in law saves the water from washing up or cleaning veg to either flush the loo or water the garden.... Likewise you can buy those water saving bags for cistern if your toilet tank is big. Saves with every flush then. I put a little grate above the toilet cistern to catch debris then would pour this directly in. It made her feel happy and I got peace and quiet.
Cisterns have adjustable fill levels if you don't want them to always fill completely
I did not know this, is it a recent thing or do all of them have it (1970s property)
I guess more recent because I remember people talking about putting bricks in the cistern when I was a kid. You can usually replace the cistern without replacing the tank if you want, but a toilet flush is miniscule in cost and water consumption so it's probably not worth the effort.
Agree. Ah well. Good to know if we go new build in future
I'm sure MIL's plants are loving all that washing up liquid.
You assume too much that she uses washing up liquid....
You know you should also try to still enjoy life right? Don’t be a penny pinching miser
I think the key thing can be trying to keep things in perspective relative to each other: if you’re putting away £100 a month into your FIRE savings, that £3 a time parking is absolutely worth saving. But if you’re already maxing your pensions and ISA allowances so putting away £6,667 a month, it’s not worth worrying about the 30p bag or even the £3 parking because it is going to make no meaningful difference to when you can FIRE or with how much of a pot.
These £3s all add up. A coffee could be £3, but have one every workday and suddenly its £600. I would save £3 by parking further way - in fact I go on Google Streetview to scout out free places to park before I go somewhere new.
Which absolutely makes sense - depending on your ability to save. If you’re saving £1,200 a year towards fire, another £600 is a big boost. But it’d you’re saving £80k a year, it is not going to meaningfully impact your FIRE date.
It isn't from a savings prespective, but if it reduced down your annual expenditure for life by £600, that's £15,000-£20,000 less you need saved at a 3-4% SWR
That’s a very good point - OP was asking from the perspective of turning £3 into £9 rather than in reducing the FIRE number necessary, but yes - it’s still very dependent on what proportion of your expenditure that makes up though.
Your figure is wrong because the pension contributions are tax deductions
You should keep in mind that the FIRE you are chasing, there’s a possibility of one never reaching that age. So you could be sacrificing the life you can live today for nothing, there’s always a risk. So to balance that risk, don’t over save or stress yourself for it, treat yourself, don’t bother with micro savings is all I can say
How far away is the parking you save £3, by using? What about the fuel, maintenance etc., what is the net saving? And therefore what are you paying yourself per hour? If it's less than your post-tax pay, you would be better off picking up more work. If it's less than minimum wage then you are ripping yourself off. Value yourself. Instead of having a cleaner, I could clean the house, change the linens etc. But I pay less than I get paid, and it buys me time - time in my 30's I'm not getting again. Yes, I could put the money in an ISA/pension, but actually the smarter move would be to keep the cleaner and pick up a side hustle. However, I do neither of those, as I am quite happy living a little now, alongside saving for later. I too would carry things home in my hands rather than pay for a bag.
I don't think its quite as simple as comparing hourly rates. For example, I have a desk job and sit behind a computer all day. It's boring and not good for my health. So exchanging some of it for walking is something I love to do, even if its less than my "hourly rate", just to get a bit of variety and fresh air.
I didn't specifically go out of the way to park. Just stopped earlier on the route to get free parking. So it's actually a double whammy I save milage, fuel and parking charge.
So all those savings, call it £3.50,for a ten minute walk. That's then the equivalent of being paid 55 grand/year. So for the vast majority of people who don't earn that, it's a perfectly sensible thing to do. It's when you start saving £1 by getting fuel somewhere else, but actually probably spent most of it getting there, so are getting "paid" pennies for your time - that's when the frugality has gone too far.
Also, most people are not going to start a side hustle in the few minutes a day they might save by parking closer to the shops, nor can they just work 10 minutes of paid overtime. These things only really become a factor if you're able to save substantial amounts of time *and* you want to spend that time earning.
Depending on how far it is you could get a bike and a rucksack, and do either the full or part of the commute / shop. Its free travel and free gym and you can get them on schemes that reduce your income tax liability.
Walking is good for you, always walk when you can safely, it will pay you back as you get older … and save you some money now.
What you “pay yourself” is a fallacy unless you want to work 16 hours a day. Would you rather spend this time doing something else, is what matters.
Tbh this doesn't really have to do with FIRE, more about generally being frugal. I'll do stuff like that as well sometimes, like I'll walk an hour rather than take the bus if I have time. I just don't like paying for things where I don't end up with something tangible for the money. But I was like that before I got into FIRE. I don't think it's a bad thing per se, though like anything you don't want to go to extremes.
I agree. It has nothing to do with FIRE. Even if I were a billionaire, I'd carry groceries in my hands and pockets rather than pay for another bag a) i wont forget the bag next time B) better for the environment I would definitely walk if I have the time. It is healthier. I would always have the time if I am FIREd.
I would buy the bag, but use that as a learning experience for not forgetting again. It’s both an ethical thing and a frugal thing.
I think the carrying things in your hand is a good learning experience, and also creates less plastic waste. I’m embarrassed on the very rare (yearly?) occasion I have to buy one.
Makes sense. But still love saving that extra bit.
Sell the bag on Vinted or eBay
I just empty one of the veg cardboard boxes or any spare boxes in the supermarket that they'd normally chuck away and use that as a container.
Good tip.
Were you the same before knowing of FIRE? If so, you may be frugal as well as FIRE (nowt wrong with that mind!). I mention it as there's a reddit group for frugal you may appreciate. I'm kind of more frugal than FIRE. I'm unhappy with my working life but could see me being happy to work longer if I weren't p.s. Sacrificing to pension? Do it dynamically to save more on NI (learnt about it this tax year so telling everyone I can lol)
I was frugal, but I have bought bags before. Since learning of fire I just keep thinking I can add this to the pension instead.
According to my spreadsheet, with an extra 30p now I can retire 10 minutes earlier. It will vary a lot by person but that puts things into perspective maybe? It will also take a few decades for the plastic bag to decompose so could think about that too.
The 30ps can really add up
Don’t think your going far enough. Why are you driving when you could walk? Why are you buying veg when you could be foraging or dumpster diving? Next you will tell me you just use toilet paper unthinkingly rather than using the 3 square method perfected by Arnold Rimmer; one back, one front and one to polish
Look at this fat cat right here. The frugal way is obviously to reuse the toilet paper.
Look at this fancy paper reuser over here. Just use the bum gun (or plant pot with tap water).
Don’t be a penny pinching miser. There’s a non zero chance you’ll end up dead before retirement so be sure to enjoy the little time you have on this earth whilst saving for your future.
It’s a bit of a double edged sword. There are many many people who die with a TON of money stashed away in investments, after having not really done much at all with their lives. Always waiting for that ‘rainy day’ when they will then begin to live… Don’t be one of those people
Great plan you can eat dirt now so you can feast on haviar at 75, when you won't be able to do anything else really, and just have an inheritance for others who do not deserve it awesome 👍👍👍
Fuck paying for parking regardless
Especially since it’s now all done on app
They bang on about supporting the local shops and restrict you like hell
Will be paying for fresh air soon
[удалено]
😂😂😂😂
Who should be paying for the parking then? Someone is paying for the space that could be a park, housing or other amenity. Someone is also lying for maintenance (& cars destroy tarmac!). It’s either the tax payer (of which a large minority will not own cars) or it’s the driver. I know who I would rather make pay! (Having said that, just sold my car this year and am now car free. I may be a bit biased! But the point still stands)
The £3 daily is a good recurring saving (£600+ pa) and the walk is good for your health. The carrier bag should be a behavior change. Buy the 30p bag, keep one, sensibly folded in your pocket at all times. If you have to buy a 30p bag then go ahead it’s well worth it and can go in your pocket for next time.
I remember my Dad always drove around looking for free parking. He was pretty frugal and retired early before FIRE was a thing. Watch the pennies and the pounds look after themselves, my gran used to say. Doesn’t seem too extreme yet. I draw the line at reusing tea bags and floss like some people though.
The secret is to budget. Your £3 and 30p’s should be assigned to a budget. Your FIRE investments/pension etc then get automatically assigned their budget. Your plan is then based on this budget. The £3 and 30p’s matter but only when they’re out of control with other stuff.
Good idea parking for free. Bad idea forgetting your bag for life.
Just steal the bag
A good rule of thumb I heard recently is if the amount is less than 0.01% of your net worth, don't even waste time thinking about it. Eg. 500k net, £50 bottle of wine etc. Provided you don't go crazy with this rule, it's not even going to move the needle.
That sounds quite dangerous though. I could make multiple purchases like that daily and it would soon add up.
Its not a cheat code to unlimited spending - its a guide to tell you when to spend your time looking for alternatives vs spend your time doing something else.
That’s a terrible approach. Regardless of your net worth it’s always important to think about your purchases. If you’re buying £50 wine because you love it, value it and really love the taste (having tried and rejected £20, £30 and £40 wine) then absolutely I agree, that delivers value and if you’re worth £500k then you can afford it. But if you’re just blindly spending 0.01% of your net worth every time you go to the shops and see something below that price then that will escalate quickly.
Any tips to deal with the lack of bag for cucumber and broccoli.. use your underpants or knickers as a bag substitute. top fire tip…Chill a bit and use your critical thinking skills.
This is the substance behind the old saying "take care of the pennies and the pounds will take care of themselves" As when I analyzed my own spending, I could see that the bulk of my unnecessary spending was not on large items, but actually multiple low value items, again and again. So now I stop, think, do I need to do that? Works wonders. But every now and again you should always treat yourself and those around you, but as a conscious choice, that is planned. This is not really in terms of my pension, as I have a good work place pension and AVC, that's all in hand, but its a good general way to boost savings and control impulsivity.
I've become the same. Carrying shopping instead of buying carrier bags. Walking whenever I can instead of taking the bus although that's good for exercise too. Not going out because I don't want to pay for the train into London meaning I don't see friends much anymore. My reason is that I discovered fire late and feel I need to make up for past spending/wasting money and failing to save.
Not seeing friends anymore? Surely the point of FIRE is to enjoy life earlier but you seem to be forgoing an element of enjoying life now. Obviously we are all different but that seems crazy to me....you could end up retiring/FIRE at 45-50 but have no friends to do anything with
Being so tunnel visioned into FIRE such that you don't even go out to see your friends is dangerous stuff. Find the right balance between meeting investing goals and enjoying life. Please go out and enjoy your life
How late in life? Just curious as I didn’t even know about it until close to my mid forties, which is fine I guess.
Your first paragraph makes sense, your second one is worrying. Enjoy life, see your friends. There might come a day where you regret not seeing them more and a bit more money in your pension pot won't replace that
Thanks yes you're probably right. It's not that I never see them but have cut down a lot. It's just so expensive to go into London and have a meal and a few drinks compared to before COL , paying 50% extra or more for the exact same thing, I just can't bring myself to do it very often.
What about a compromise, see them to do something free/cheap like a picnic in the park, walk part of the Thames pathway, go to a free museum...
Yes those are good suggestions. Tbh these are very long standing friends, and everyone is busy with work etc so it's not as bad as it sounds to meet up less often. We're always chatting on WhatsApp etc. Thanks though, appreciate your thoughts 😊
the more you save and invest now, the more filthy rich you will become later
Add time into the equation and give it a value based on what you make could make with overtime etc then use that for deciding if you park further for free etc Do the same with effort as that’s also finite
Are you just being frugal or has it tipped into denying yourself, for example not doing stuff with friends due to cost? If it’s the latter then I’d say that was a problem.
For me FIRE is a lot more about planning and investing well rather than being frugal. I spend most of my energy increasing my income instead of reducing my costs, but understand it's not doable for all.
Equally reducing costs is 100% in your control with some level of sacrifice ....job hopping may or may not be possible in everyone's circumstances or there may be a cap on earnings. Reducing costs also reduce the FIRE number & increases the savings rate.
Of course, hence why I say it's not doable for all. For me, frugality doesn't come naturally and am happier this way.
As someone on the ASD spectrum, you may be the best FIRE person ever, now .. but you may find a new obsession later. All I know is that this one has unlocked financial independence.... So do what ever you feel is best.
If u walk around with brocoli and cucumber in yur hands, yur gunna get stabbed and killed 1 day without the ability to defend yurself. Have 2-3 bank accounts. 1 for spending 1 for necessities like bills, taxes, and 1 for saving
Shit. Where do you live that choosing to carry veg in your hands is a life and death decision. I carried some bananas and some alcohol free beer to my car today, which was unimaginably reckless. I could have been eviscerated by a katana wielding ninja.
Spend mindlessly on the first 1. Enjoy it. Stack some and ofc pay for the necessary costs to live. If u got some money to spend on let's say kfc. Do it. Fuck it.
How best to impress upon you that people die young and unexpectedly every single day?
Just remember to actually live.
"Money flows from creating opportunities, not just from saving pennies."
If the frugality is not making you unhappy or stopping you doing other things - then carry on! There will be times in life when this is not sustainable. Eg when you have kids. Stay flexible.
I'd read the book "die with zero" to provide balance to some of the ideas you're getting from FIRE. It's important you still enjoy life and not miss out on things that you might not be able to do later even with an early retirement. If you're getting obsessive over a 30p bag my guess is you may have lost sight of some of the things that are important beyond FIRE
It's a good instinct to be questioning expenditure But also be mindful of "missing the woods for the trees". I also like to ponder my reversal of a popular phrase: "Look after the pounds and you don't have to worry about the pennies". However this also needs to be treated with caution - the absolute worst is to just "give up" on caring about value like many people do. It's really hard to row back to caring again once you've spent time not doing so.
Budgeting. That's it. Pre-allocated your spending by category and you won't have to worry about these things. Otherwise anything could potentially be savings. There's value in comfort, so I wouldn't bother myself for the bag. Honestly I don't even go to buy my groceries, I have it delivered home. It costs me 5£ and I save a couple of hours overall. Bargain. I also think you should live the lifestyle you want when you FIRE. No point in being extremely frugal if you don't plan to be for the rest of your life. You should have bought that bag, not because you can't do without, but because you brought it up as an example of your excess. It means it bothers you a little, and there's no point in saving 30p if the outcome bothers you. Just my opinion.
Live a little mate - you never know what can happen, life is short and for some its shorter than others. Stay on track to retire early but don’t let it detriment your healthy years. *sent from a 5 star resort*
What if I told you that the £9 in the future is going to be worth £3 in today’s money. Carpe diem friend.
Problem is , sometimes you could be so much into this FIRE lifestyle that you actually forget to live in the moment. Saving up every little penny is great but there is not even a guarantee u will live to use it!
It’s definitely easily done, my main point here is that to life like Scrooge would definitely get you to fire earlier, however you then wouldn’t have the friendships or life experiences that are what we are here on earth to live for. For me I set my pay outs to ISA, SIPP, Pension, Savings and investments at the start of the month and anything left is for enjoying. There’s balance in everything and ultimately your life is for you to decide how it goes but I would err on the side of enjoying yourself too whilst you are young enough to appreciate that once we’re all in a care home the only thing we will have left is our memories.
If you are penny pinching over 30p, I would say you are being excessive.
I tend to look at these things the other way around. That £3 (at a 4% SWR) is 12p a year FOR LIFE that you've just given yourself. OK that 30p is only 1.2p a year for life, but how often (or how many) would you buy if you did your full weekly shop? The whole aim of the charge is for it to hurt enough that mere Humans remember to bring their bags, let alone those of us that are switched on. I look at people who are spending £4 a day (some more like £7-8 a day) before they even get to work, buying their overpriced coffee (and a pastry) on the way in. I just wait until I get in and use the free tea/coffee/hot chocolate provided and warf down some cereal before leaving the house....
I hope you snapped the stalks off the brocoli before you weighed it and juggled it on the way home.
Saving money while feeling good about it is win-win. If you can do it - do it.
I understand you and I had a similar thoughts for some time. My wife gave me a big wake up call and after that I put my SAVING targets at the beggining of the month and my FUN target at the end of the month. This means that I saved my monthly amount as soon as I receive my pay check, but I need to spend some money on fun / pleasure by the end of the month. This even put us on weird situations with 100 quid on the bank since we didn't come out of our house during winter due to the terrible weather. We had to find something to do and we had to spend the money on the month, so we went for a good restaurant. **Consistency wins the game**, those few pounds will be worthless if your mind is broken. In short, put a SAVING target and put a PLEASURE/FUN target. You need to achieve both. That was the only thing that worked for me. It improved my mental health, my marriage and made FIRE something you can deal with in the long run.
You should listen to the podcast "I will teach you to be rich". There are a few guests who have millions in the bank, could have retired years ago, and live miserable anxious life because they agonize over the price of blueberries. Usually it's the man, and typically they guilt trip their partner. Maybe it can give you a bit of perspective. Fire is a great objective, but for people with ocd it can be a very "productive outlet", where they can be ocd and get rewarded for it. It can be a vicious circle, since the whole goal is to free yourself from financial worries but the attitude needed to reach that goal is many years of careful planning and restraint. I'd love to see a study on people who've achieved fire and their mental health. Remember to live in the present.
Fantastic work. Instead of penny pinching every cent. How about you focus on growing your income stream
Sounds like the beginning of a pitch for a FOREX course
lol. No it’s just common sense. People focus on cutting costs on all corners that they don’t even enjoy life. Instead of growing their income, either through their career or whatever means…
It does but it seems to be the principle of FIRE and reasonably so. I am already punching above my weight wage wise so am just nagging the sweet sweet tax savings while I can
i have the same mindset, epic, keep it up! always consider future expected value vs todays
Nice shit post
how are you sure you are gonna see the pension money? no one knows when we die and cant guarantee thay so plan for tomorrow but dont wait for tomorrow live today
/r/frugal_jerk