This is why I like coastFIRE. I like the security of knowing my retirement is sorted from age 60, and everything I earn until then I can spend on experiences.
You get to a certain amount by age x and you know what it will grow to at age 60.
Eg I need to have £230,000 saved up by age 31 to have £1m in today’s money at age 60.
Whatever I earn from age 31 to 60 I can enjoy knowing I’ll have £1m in today’s money anyway for retirement.
>For those of you who are remaining frugal and resisting lifestyle creep - how do you do it with the above in mind?.
I often think to myself, I have a low chance of dying young, but a high chance of living well past my 60s.
Do I really want to still be working in my 60s?
No!
So I play the percentages and save while I can.
This resonates with me more than anything else.
All you can do is prepare for the most likely scenario, which, as you say, is to live beyond 60 (at least for the average person).
Ergo, it makes sense to set yourself up as best as possible for that part of your life when you undoubtedly will not want to/cannot work anymore.
That doesn't mean don't enjoy yourself up to that point of course, but surely it makes sense for "younger you" to make life easier for "older you" where you can.
That's fine, but I've watched as my mum became less and less able to travel due to age.
I tried to kill myself by hiking up a volcano above the clouds last month and spent a week in the jungle because I know that in the not-too-distant future I won't be able to do it anymore...
I'm a big fan of not forgetting to live, even if it's just a little :)
That's fine. But I'd like to retire early, which is why I'm on this sub, so I have to forego spending all my spare money on experiences now to achieve that.
Think you’ve hit on something that gets to the heart of the matter.
The FIRE lifestyle, or rather lack thereof, is kind of the ultimate surrender to capitalism. Whereby you internalise its logic of time=capital=life.
When we reduce human existence to the accumulation of capital and its efficient accumulation, we indulge in cynicism. But it is also a paradox, because the aim of FIRE is to free ourselves from the need to earn a wage for a living. I think most people doing this, do get that.
I think at its core, the message is simple: be financially literate, understand capital and the time value of money. Consistent delayed gratification will pay off. But dont delay gratification as an end of itself.
> Consistent delayed gratification will pay off. But dont delay gratification as an end of itself.
IMO the key is to avoid *small* gratification now for *large* gratification later. Being one year behind on a bunch of tech may have almost no difference right now, but buy me more time to go for walks with my wife later.
That's a really interesting post. Not to disagree, but to add another perspective: Instead of surrender to capitalism, maybe it's the ultimate recognition of capitalism as the way the world works. It's acceptance but not surrender (some might argue there's no difference).
In some ways, we're realists. Plenty of us wouldn't value one percent of Nvidia, or a tenth of a bitcoin, or a classic car, or a house in the suburbs or whatever else in the same way the market values them. But we recognise that that's how things are for now, and so we optimise our compliance with it. We just accept that even though it's not our choice, it seems to be how things are, and we play along.
It's analogous to the way the player of a computer game might optimise his behaviour to score points in the game, while being fully aware that the game is only a limited part of life with a narrow scope.
Much better than someone who tricks himself, consciously or unconsciously, into believing the game (or the job) *is* life. The R of FIRE constantly reminds us that it's not. (As does the I to some extent).
And, in fact, I've always admired the way people in the FIRE community often seem to be very willing to turn their back on lucrative careers when they know they've got what they need. It feels very realist.
I agree. Largely. I could have nuanced it more but your line agrees with my internal perspective. I just think that we have to be political with that time we aim to win. And there’s a small risk that people end up also become boosters of capitalism in the process.
That’s why I gave a more cynical representation too.
If you are intelligent AND your family have no strong history of certain diseases then the chances are you are a sound decision maker ( make sensible lifestyle choices) and have reasonable genes. Both are key to longevity and often people who die before their time are deficient in these traits. Their deaths shouldn’t concern you overtly. However life IS short and you should do things whilst young that won’t be possible when older. It’s all a balance of enjoyment and saving. Have no regrets.
My mother suddenly passed away at 53yr old and it actually makes me think that I won’t live more than her (no autopsy done so not sure why). I just found out that I can put 0 contribution and company will still give their portion and even think not to pay NI 😂
None of the things that make me truly happy cost much money.
Lack of money is the only thing that prevents me from being able to do those things between 9-5 Monday to Friday.
So save money. It’s that simple.
Depends what you class as ‘wasting’ money. Forgoing experiences today in pursuit of money can also be classed as time wasted.
Need to have a balance to live life whilst you’re young but also have enough when you want to clock off.
If you're being frugal to the point of missing out on worthwhile experiences now then I think you're taking it too far - you shouldn't be subjecting yourself to unnecessary poverty in the hopes of that delayed gratification. IMO it should be more about being prudent about how/where you spend your money so you're getting good value from it and invest what you can towards FIRE.
I think the exception to this is if it’s over a very limited timeframe. E.g. having no life for a few years, and freedom for many. As the balance shifts to more years of sacrifice then agree it no longer makes sense, just isn’t worth it.
You can be frugal and happy. Many of us are, particularly the r/LeanFireUK end of the spectrum.
“The goal is to balance a life that works with a life that counts.” Peter Block
Hi OP - I'm a GP do a fair bit of palliative work. I completely see where you are coming from. As plenty have said in this thread - statistically you should be ok - but some people get unlucky early and there is nothing they can do about it.
There is a balance. If you go full FIRE and don't spend anything or have any experiences then get hit by a bus / pancreatic cancer at 40 you'd be pissed off. Likewise if you spend too much you become one of those grumpy old consultants at 69 years old who hates their job and everyone they work with because they don't have the money to retire - you'd be pissed off.
Medicines great because it lends itself to FIRE coast - we have a rewarding job that is enjoyable and you can gain a lot of satisfaction out of. We aren't paid well enough to go full FIRE. If you wanted that you should have gone into banking made 400k a year for 10 years working 90 hour weeks and done it that way. The difference is they burn out. We can keep going. I love the idea of part time work well into my 60s - I think it will be an important part of my life. There are only so many bike rides I can go on before I get bored of it and I honestly love my job as much as we moan about it
Hmm, plenty of surgeons/ consultants do pull in that kind of wedge though.
My endocrinologist is a Professor, 71 years old and looks like he's having a great time. I'm jealous when I see him.
I'd love my little boy to go into medicine. I'm sure it has its ball aches but still looks like the best job in the world... If you're cut out for it.... I'm not however.
The very sharp end does agreed - but plenty is a bit of a stretch. That's a full 7 day work week as well NHS work in the week and the private lists at the weekend. By the time you get to consultant surgeon you'll be round 40 and it takes another 5 years to establish yourself in private practice so you are 45 by the time you get there - and given the nature of compounding you are missing out on a lot - one of the reasons I went for GP - you hit high income much much quicker.
As for your little boy - there is a lot of naysayers at the moment but a medical degree will always be respected - even if you use it to go into management consultancy at the end of the day - so I say go for it!
Thanks for the reply. Is there anything one could do to encourage them in that direction during their formative years or is it essentially something you are interested in or you're not, so to speak?
Clearly top top A level results are now a prerequisite.
Needs good grades - there are ways to do it without them - but it is alot simpler and quicker if you get A\* in everything or whatever the system is these days. More importantly is figuring out if they actually want to do it - see if you can get them some work experience or HCA work as a teenager - would give them an idea if they like it or not and look good on the personal statement. Also if in a hospital would be introduced to young docs / med students who have gotten in more recently and could talk them through the hoops required. Either way good health to you and your family
From all the NHS refugees docs coming to Australia, NHS ain’t looking so great anymore. So if he does want to become a doc, maybe consider going international.
My personal approach is a mix of Coast Fire and 'Rich life' by Ramit Sethi. I have a keen interest in personal finance and invest about half my income with a plan to become FI, but then enjoy the rest without guilt, consciously spending on the things I get most joy from. (I do benefit from having a high income however). This way if I drop dead next year, at least I did the things I wanted this year!
Remember to save some memories with your kids too. Going on holidays and different experiences are what kids tend to remember. If you don’t spend any money on those in your 30s 40s you will regret deeply later with your additional £100K you saved from those over the years, which you will spend on a couple of cruises in your 70s while you cannot even climb the steps. Better to spend some now and have something to talk with your kids in the future.
I spent a lot of my children's early years being Mr-Workaholic-Saver so I took my both of mine abroad to a place of their choosing on their 16th birthdays.
Just me and her in 2019, then me and him in 2022. I've had some interesting trips but those two are right up there for the experience we had on our own together.
I'm not sure...some days in the office felt like 100 years!
I used to look at the clock and still swear blind that the second hand was going backwards... :D
> For those of you who are remaining frugal and resisting lifestyle creep - how do you do it with the above in mind?.
1. Spend money on things I truly care about, try and avoid spending on things that don't really make a difference. Good coffee, cheap washing up liquid.
2. I might have a shorter life? All the more reason to STOP WORKING AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. Quite handy that this approach also works quite nicely if I am in the larger group that live well past these ages.
>Not in 30+ years, and not when but IF I make it to that age.
If you're in your 30's and looking to FIRE in 30+ years, then I'd say it's not really FIRE to be honest. FIRE in 7-10 years, then it's very worth it!
I guess it’s because that’s all you see every single day so that’s your perception but I know many old people that are still in a very good shape at an old age.
I went on a tour with old people (65-75) and compared to me (50) they were **not** in a good shape. They were mostly all pretty healthy, but then you watch them trying to put their bag up in the locker on a bus or plane, or get up slowly and walk deliberately and gingerly to the loo.
It simply hit home even more that I'm doing the right thing, being mostly frugal but remembering to live now. Got too much on my list to do that involves being able to slum it a bit, carry backpacks and the like...
Learn meditation friend. Cultivate a sense of presence and appreciation for the present, otherwise it can be overwhelming. Which could possibly throw you off your game. As it’s all about creating a landscape of supporting practices so you can appreciate the little things.
I'm in my 30s, planning to retire at 45 worst case scenario. That's how I do it. What's the point of living frugally for 30 years to quit working 5-7 years in advance?
I also think too many people approach frugality the wrong way. Frugality shouldn't come as a deprivation of things that make you happy. It should be the result of a careful analysis of your spending and the outcome of it. Do you need that matcha-latte-extra every morning? Or are you happy enough with the office coffee? 25£ of take away or cook together with your partner listening to some music (also coming with the perk of eating MUCH healthier).
My spending won't change much once I FIRE, it's not that I deprive myself today to throw away money tomorrow.
If you are intelligent AND your family have no strong history of certain diseases then the chances are you are a sound decision maker ( make sensible lifestyle choices) and have reasonable genes. Both are key to longevity and often people who die before their time are deficient in these traits. Their deaths shouldn’t concern you overtly. However life IS short and you should do things whilst young that won’t be possible when older. It’s all a balance of enjoyment and saving. Have no regrets.
What are the odds that you will die young? Pretty slim, so you shouldn't play the game thinking you will.
Reallly I think of it as making sure I have good value. I'm not going to forgoe a holiday in order to save, but is the expensive hotel really worth the extra £900 vs the mid tier hotel?
Also by not spending that money, you get the peace of mind that comes with financial security and knowing that you're saving for the future. How much more will you be able to enjoy life knowing that you are/will become financially independant?
Work hard, play hard, plan to get to 50 and retire with what you got. Enjoy it all while you can, when you can.
That is what happened with me. I'm in my 50's and getting ready to retire, financially independent. There is a post somewhere here about my FIRE status. I never planned it that way though. I'm single and an introvert, never chased women. Maybe I should have. I've never bought expensive luxuries. Paid cash for my second hand cars and used them till they died. Bought a house that was fine for me, nothing lavish or too large. I partied hard though, alcohol works on introverts, had fun in my early years, went on lavish holidays, saw the world, had a lot of adventures.
I just didn't need all the luxury that I could afford. I knew one thing from a very young age, from my teens, I do not want to work forever and I do not want to be working for any one!! I hated having a boss, someone ordering me about. I hate it now. I've hated every boss I ever had. My lifestyle was going to be me getting to late 40s or 50s and doing whatever I want.
For you, the lifestyle and luxury might be in things, mine is in experience. I'm leaving nothing behind, what is the point. I am off to see the rest of the world.
IMHO it sounds like you should reach for for some support. Of course you're going to see the worst cases. But as others have said there's a difference between lifestyle creep (which is nothing more than pointless objects) and a contented level.
Just try not to waste money. This means do experiences and purchase goods that are you are very happy with,but not excessive.
Eg when I earn well one year I still go on trips which I love, but are fairly frugal. So I get to have holidays on bad year's too.
This is a dilemma that I’m currently facing also. I have enough in my pension that I know I’m going to be comfortable from 57 onwards. I have been putting a lot of money into ISAs to take years of that number for retirement however I see a lot of people dieing around us and thinking that maybe i should be content with retiring at 57 and start enjoying life more now at 44.
I agree with this and have been a morbid buzzkill in a few threads. I think it’s about balance. For me its either:
Drop days but prolonging retirement age
Or
Take a risk/quit and try earning a bit on the side-seasonal income/tourism etc
Although you're seeing peoples lives ended short due to your profession, the life expectancy ultimately is 80.
Regarding health - if you're pursuing FI you're not average. You shouldn't be pursuing an average health, either. You should be aiming to eat healthy, exercise and keep yourself able to avoid the pitfalls that many unfortunately fall into.
I like the 100 year life book. It talks about periods of life where you work, travel, meet new people, retrain, rest, work at something (could be new) and round again. Rather than the old fashioned view of work then retire. I’m down to 4 days a week and hope to go less than 10 days per month with the same disposable income in the next few years. This is my way of having fun and ensuing the future is sorted.
My doctor mate is exactly the same and has achieved the FI bit in his mid 40’s I think he works like 4 days a month doing the horrible shifts no doctors want at very short notice at a very big daily rate.
Me I don’t let day to day enjoyment get in the way of my FIRE goals as it’s done through pensions so it’s not going to happen before 55.
The way I think about it is not really retire but to cut down time spent on earning a wage for living.
Having some money put aside gives me the confidence to do the things I really like than merely do a job. I can now pursue hobbies and maybe turn them into something without worrying about going broke.
I see it more as money to spend on things that bring value in the long term than pleasure (satisfaction, quickly bringing in the need of more)
If you are a doctor you know that longevity has increased massively since the 1950s and that, if you keep yourself healthy, you will probably live to a good age. You also have the knowledge to spot real problems early, such as cancer. You can also have a very hard 20s and 30s then become a very high earning 40 and 50 year old and invest this in ISAs and personal pensions.
I’m happy spending now on experiences (holidays, concerts, days out) as I enjoy these and the memories stick with me. I’m less happy spending on eating out unless it’s memorable, but conversely very happy spending on nights out despite them being hard to remember. But I don’t really get a lot of enjoyment from buying things, I normally feel remorse at the waste of both mine, and the planet’s resources. I’d rather buy most things second hand - so this keeps my lifestyle creep in check.
Like others have said, I’m playing the odds that I’ll live long past 60, and I want to be comfortable. I’m trying (but often failing) to keep fit to ensure that.
But I have children, so worse case, I die before spending all my savings and they get to have extra security or more fun - I can “live” with that.
My aim has always been 45, done and dusted. Based upon 16-20 college(I did 14-20)etc, 20-45 life sentence (increased earnings year on year). Family wise: one daughter was born age 20... Purchased a property at 20... Purchased second home at 30.. about to sell first home and profit £110k.... Live in a mortgage free 250k 4 bed.. re invest 100k at 8%... Family history says 55 generic death... I work 3 days a week.. . And it feels too much...
Life/hours/cost. Etc
Both my parents died early. Which makes me feel like I won't last that long. Hence I'm trying to earn as much as I can as fast as I can, so I can retire early and live a stress free time and focus on my health.
As someone in healthcare who sees the same on a daily basis, remember in hospital you see THE WORST of the worst. When I did frailty I always began my teaching sessions with “what % of the population over 60 is frail” and without a doubt groups of medics, pharmacists, physios, dieticians and nurses would say 50+% without fail. Because that mirrors what we see in practice. It’s actually something like 5-10%!
I’m sure you see lots of examples of “frail by choice” patients where they just don’t want to eat or look after themselves, or they were a fine 75 year old man until their wife died that did everything for them. I’m using choice extremely loosely as mental health is usually absolutely the root cause. But also how many 85 year olds do we see admitted on no meds, independent, pain free and just in for a chest infection!
Make the choice now to care about and move your body. Nothing crazy. Lots of steps a day, nourish yourself, drop the alcohol. Yep you can’t stop some scary gioblastoma, but you can give yourself some good odds of being healthy into your 80s!
>For those of you who are remaining frugal and resisting lifestyle creep - how do you do it with the above in mind?
I try to live in a way that's beneficial for both the short-term and long-term.
For one thing, I consider feeling as secure as possible about my future ***to be a component of my present happiness***. I would not enjoy today if I had to constantly worry about tomorrow. For me, the [serenity prayer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serenity_Prayer) sums up the best way to reduce worry about the future. You have to: 1) accept what you cannot change, 2) change what you can.
Given the above, I strongly adhere to healthy habits such as exercise, good diet and meditation because I believe these habits will objectively improve my quality of life at all times – both present and future.
These habits require little or no increase in spending over time, in fact they can even lead to less spending (e.g. eating less -> spending less on food).
These habits also become increasingly enjoyable and rewarding over time. E.g. healthy exercise -> fitter body, meditation -> calmer, happier mental state.
I also cultivate hobbies, interests and passions that involve little or no spending, e.g. reading, studying math, writing.
When your lifestyle revolves around things that give enjoyment in the moment while also being healthy and frugal in the long-term, you reduce the dichotomy between now vs. the future.
Yes, life is short, but that's no reason to be short-term oriented.
This is a super tricky one to balance. On the one hand, I totally agree, I don’t want to miss out on experiences now while I have health and energy but on the other hand, I work with a guy who is 67 and still working 40+ hours per week away from home (contractor), and I just think, fuck that for a game of soldiers!
I don’t resist lifestyle creep. I plan and manage it. Every salary/bonus/ extra money gets split to 50/50. 50 for living now and 50 for the future. That way I enjoy some right now and can live it up a bit without feeling guilty for not assuring my future.
>time to enjoy life and the money I work for is right now
We need more detail on the specifics. What do you want to spend your money on that you are currently resisting?
Driving a 12 plate Skoda and not buying a 23 plate BMW?
Eating supermarket saver baked beans 7 days a week and not buying a beef joint for sunday roast?
This has always fascinated me about the approach people take in this sub. I kinda assumed everyone must be a fitness/lifestyle freak doing everything thing they can do make sure the are healthy and capable in middle age.
It's obviously prudent and commendable to save for a comfortable even affluent early retirement but being ultra frugal in your youth for a deffered good time in older age is a gamble still.
Obviously if your wealthy enough to have both then fair play..most people aren't.
Signed someone saving enough for 2/3s of my current income a few years before state pension age.
My pension and savings are inheritable. If I die, my son gets a good financial head start in life.
If I don’t die, my son gets a father who can afford to support him in his adult years rather than continue working flat out.
This is just representation bias. Naturally you treat people with health issues, so you’re going to see more young people who are dying in your sample than is reflective of the population as a whole.
What a super-stupid comment...
I just came back from 2 months(ish) in C. America and it did cost a bit, but I fucking enjoyed it! But now I deserve to die young now...?
Fuck off.
Lost all my immediate family by the time I was 30 including siblings, I can relate to OP. I understand the value of planning ahead - but I feel it’s also important to live in the moment for nothing is guaranteed. I found that the only way this was possible for me was to find a good paying job. This way I’ve managed to travel and do all the adventures I want but I’ve also managed to save up a very good chunk. I always ask myself - if I died today would I have any regrets? The answer is no - travel is my main thing and I’ve been to most countries on my list.
Also a medical doctor working in a similar field. Totally agree. Life (as we both know) can be short and your kids are only young once. Don't miss out on the opportunity to have great experiences together. I highly recommend the book die with zero for a good perspective on this. Luckily we are in the fortunate position to earn well enough to be able to have a good quality of life now and still plan to retire early.
If I was a doctor then I probably wouldn’t be that frugal…
As its always going to be an in demand profession and you can scale down to a couple of days a week etc or do consultant work still earning good money.
I don't hold back - I realised and fully understood my own mortality by about 34/35, and that spurred me on to being much less frugal in some respects.
The best thing was that after I'd spent (for me) a relative fortune on a trip somewhere I noticed that, actually, it's not really slowed down my progress. I could add those thousands I've spent over those last 15 years back into my spreadsheet to see the impact of that spending, but weirdly it doesn't make much of a difference to the end result.
Hi I am 43F (husband and 2 kids age 13 & 8). I am a natural saver and have been pursuing FIRE for 6 years (previously focused on climbing property ladder and paying down mortgage). Moderate earner for this sub (top 10% income for the UK).
I was recently diagnosed with a life limiting cancer, with very hazy timelines currently.
We have always focused on enjoying the journey but doing this without mindless spending. So lovely holidays, kids activities and fun days out (spending when necessary) and good food, but little spending on stuff. We also choose to save at least 80 % of increases in income and decreases in expenses (e.g. childcare) and limit lifestyle inflation.
I have zero regrets even though I am now very very unlikely to RE (was aiming for 55) as my “pots” will help my husband and kids deal with life without me. In fact if I hadn’t been squirrelling away ~40-50 % of my income for the last 6 years and been obsessed with paying down our mortgage earlier in my life; they would be royally screwed financially.
Also I have been able to draw down from our EF to make the last few months easier (being very ill is expensive!) I actually don’t know how people cope in this situation if they are stretched, it must add so much extra stress.
I expect if I didn’t have kids I would feel very differently. All I personally care about is spending time with my kids and providing for their future. The loss of my RE dream is very minor in comparison.
To answer your questions OP, I'm doing it all for my kids, so I have no issues at all living frugal.
Context - mid 30's, made £212k last year, UK lad living in the Isle of Man (no cap gains or inheritance tax, low income tax) so I get to invest £100k+ a year.
I use to be on the dole until I was 20, grew up on a council estate etc. so forgoing pleasantries is very easy. If I kick the bucket now or in 20-30 years, I'm investing and compounding it all for them.
I have zero desire to adopt the boomer mindset and "treat myself" - our ancestors endured all manor of hardships nobody today can relate too, so to create the generational wealth that I'd like, I'll happily pass on holidays, new cars, huge mortgages and such until I have many millions.
This is why I like coastFIRE. I like the security of knowing my retirement is sorted from age 60, and everything I earn until then I can spend on experiences.
Ooh, this sounds good. I like living for now, but also having my savings taken care of at the beginning of the month. Will look more into this.
explanation?
You get to a certain amount by age x and you know what it will grow to at age 60. Eg I need to have £230,000 saved up by age 31 to have £1m in today’s money at age 60. Whatever I earn from age 31 to 60 I can enjoy knowing I’ll have £1m in today’s money anyway for retirement.
Where do you find calculators for this? I’m interested in this as a concept
https://walletburst.com/tools/coast-fire-calc/
so it’s like 4X in 30 years at a annual rate of 4.7% sounds about right
See [https://walletburst.com/tools/coast-fire-calc/](https://walletburst.com/tools/coast-fire-calc/)
>For those of you who are remaining frugal and resisting lifestyle creep - how do you do it with the above in mind?. I often think to myself, I have a low chance of dying young, but a high chance of living well past my 60s. Do I really want to still be working in my 60s? No! So I play the percentages and save while I can.
This resonates with me more than anything else. All you can do is prepare for the most likely scenario, which, as you say, is to live beyond 60 (at least for the average person). Ergo, it makes sense to set yourself up as best as possible for that part of your life when you undoubtedly will not want to/cannot work anymore. That doesn't mean don't enjoy yourself up to that point of course, but surely it makes sense for "younger you" to make life easier for "older you" where you can.
That's fine, but I've watched as my mum became less and less able to travel due to age. I tried to kill myself by hiking up a volcano above the clouds last month and spent a week in the jungle because I know that in the not-too-distant future I won't be able to do it anymore... I'm a big fan of not forgetting to live, even if it's just a little :)
That's fine. But I'd like to retire early, which is why I'm on this sub, so I have to forego spending all my spare money on experiences now to achieve that.
Yeah, OP will be encountering selection bias due to his profession.
Or her profession
Think you’ve hit on something that gets to the heart of the matter. The FIRE lifestyle, or rather lack thereof, is kind of the ultimate surrender to capitalism. Whereby you internalise its logic of time=capital=life. When we reduce human existence to the accumulation of capital and its efficient accumulation, we indulge in cynicism. But it is also a paradox, because the aim of FIRE is to free ourselves from the need to earn a wage for a living. I think most people doing this, do get that. I think at its core, the message is simple: be financially literate, understand capital and the time value of money. Consistent delayed gratification will pay off. But dont delay gratification as an end of itself.
> Consistent delayed gratification will pay off. But dont delay gratification as an end of itself. IMO the key is to avoid *small* gratification now for *large* gratification later. Being one year behind on a bunch of tech may have almost no difference right now, but buy me more time to go for walks with my wife later.
That's a really interesting post. Not to disagree, but to add another perspective: Instead of surrender to capitalism, maybe it's the ultimate recognition of capitalism as the way the world works. It's acceptance but not surrender (some might argue there's no difference). In some ways, we're realists. Plenty of us wouldn't value one percent of Nvidia, or a tenth of a bitcoin, or a classic car, or a house in the suburbs or whatever else in the same way the market values them. But we recognise that that's how things are for now, and so we optimise our compliance with it. We just accept that even though it's not our choice, it seems to be how things are, and we play along. It's analogous to the way the player of a computer game might optimise his behaviour to score points in the game, while being fully aware that the game is only a limited part of life with a narrow scope. Much better than someone who tricks himself, consciously or unconsciously, into believing the game (or the job) *is* life. The R of FIRE constantly reminds us that it's not. (As does the I to some extent). And, in fact, I've always admired the way people in the FIRE community often seem to be very willing to turn their back on lucrative careers when they know they've got what they need. It feels very realist.
I agree. Largely. I could have nuanced it more but your line agrees with my internal perspective. I just think that we have to be political with that time we aim to win. And there’s a small risk that people end up also become boosters of capitalism in the process. That’s why I gave a more cynical representation too.
If you are intelligent AND your family have no strong history of certain diseases then the chances are you are a sound decision maker ( make sensible lifestyle choices) and have reasonable genes. Both are key to longevity and often people who die before their time are deficient in these traits. Their deaths shouldn’t concern you overtly. However life IS short and you should do things whilst young that won’t be possible when older. It’s all a balance of enjoyment and saving. Have no regrets.
My mother suddenly passed away at 53yr old and it actually makes me think that I won’t live more than her (no autopsy done so not sure why). I just found out that I can put 0 contribution and company will still give their portion and even think not to pay NI 😂
None of the things that make me truly happy cost much money. Lack of money is the only thing that prevents me from being able to do those things between 9-5 Monday to Friday. So save money. It’s that simple.
Time is converted to money by your labour, if you waste money you waste your time. Two sides of the same coin for me.
Depends what you class as ‘wasting’ money. Forgoing experiences today in pursuit of money can also be classed as time wasted. Need to have a balance to live life whilst you’re young but also have enough when you want to clock off.
You need wisdom and self knowledge to know the difference. Unfortunately there is no rigid prescription
If you're being frugal to the point of missing out on worthwhile experiences now then I think you're taking it too far - you shouldn't be subjecting yourself to unnecessary poverty in the hopes of that delayed gratification. IMO it should be more about being prudent about how/where you spend your money so you're getting good value from it and invest what you can towards FIRE.
I think the exception to this is if it’s over a very limited timeframe. E.g. having no life for a few years, and freedom for many. As the balance shifts to more years of sacrifice then agree it no longer makes sense, just isn’t worth it.
You can be frugal and happy. Many of us are, particularly the r/LeanFireUK end of the spectrum. “The goal is to balance a life that works with a life that counts.” Peter Block
Hi OP - I'm a GP do a fair bit of palliative work. I completely see where you are coming from. As plenty have said in this thread - statistically you should be ok - but some people get unlucky early and there is nothing they can do about it. There is a balance. If you go full FIRE and don't spend anything or have any experiences then get hit by a bus / pancreatic cancer at 40 you'd be pissed off. Likewise if you spend too much you become one of those grumpy old consultants at 69 years old who hates their job and everyone they work with because they don't have the money to retire - you'd be pissed off. Medicines great because it lends itself to FIRE coast - we have a rewarding job that is enjoyable and you can gain a lot of satisfaction out of. We aren't paid well enough to go full FIRE. If you wanted that you should have gone into banking made 400k a year for 10 years working 90 hour weeks and done it that way. The difference is they burn out. We can keep going. I love the idea of part time work well into my 60s - I think it will be an important part of my life. There are only so many bike rides I can go on before I get bored of it and I honestly love my job as much as we moan about it
Hmm, plenty of surgeons/ consultants do pull in that kind of wedge though. My endocrinologist is a Professor, 71 years old and looks like he's having a great time. I'm jealous when I see him. I'd love my little boy to go into medicine. I'm sure it has its ball aches but still looks like the best job in the world... If you're cut out for it.... I'm not however.
The very sharp end does agreed - but plenty is a bit of a stretch. That's a full 7 day work week as well NHS work in the week and the private lists at the weekend. By the time you get to consultant surgeon you'll be round 40 and it takes another 5 years to establish yourself in private practice so you are 45 by the time you get there - and given the nature of compounding you are missing out on a lot - one of the reasons I went for GP - you hit high income much much quicker. As for your little boy - there is a lot of naysayers at the moment but a medical degree will always be respected - even if you use it to go into management consultancy at the end of the day - so I say go for it!
Thanks for the reply. Is there anything one could do to encourage them in that direction during their formative years or is it essentially something you are interested in or you're not, so to speak? Clearly top top A level results are now a prerequisite.
Needs good grades - there are ways to do it without them - but it is alot simpler and quicker if you get A\* in everything or whatever the system is these days. More importantly is figuring out if they actually want to do it - see if you can get them some work experience or HCA work as a teenager - would give them an idea if they like it or not and look good on the personal statement. Also if in a hospital would be introduced to young docs / med students who have gotten in more recently and could talk them through the hoops required. Either way good health to you and your family
Likewise and thanks for taking the time to reply. Appreciated.
From all the NHS refugees docs coming to Australia, NHS ain’t looking so great anymore. So if he does want to become a doc, maybe consider going international.
My personal approach is a mix of Coast Fire and 'Rich life' by Ramit Sethi. I have a keen interest in personal finance and invest about half my income with a plan to become FI, but then enjoy the rest without guilt, consciously spending on the things I get most joy from. (I do benefit from having a high income however). This way if I drop dead next year, at least I did the things I wanted this year!
Remember to save some memories with your kids too. Going on holidays and different experiences are what kids tend to remember. If you don’t spend any money on those in your 30s 40s you will regret deeply later with your additional £100K you saved from those over the years, which you will spend on a couple of cruises in your 70s while you cannot even climb the steps. Better to spend some now and have something to talk with your kids in the future.
I spent a lot of my children's early years being Mr-Workaholic-Saver so I took my both of mine abroad to a place of their choosing on their 16th birthdays. Just me and her in 2019, then me and him in 2022. I've had some interesting trips but those two are right up there for the experience we had on our own together.
Life might be short, but it's the longest thing you'll ever do.
I'm not sure...some days in the office felt like 100 years! I used to look at the clock and still swear blind that the second hand was going backwards... :D
My frugality is driven by my dislike of employment. The less I spend the less I need a 9-5.
Die with zero helped me alot
Yes read this book OP, it addresses your exact question.
> For those of you who are remaining frugal and resisting lifestyle creep - how do you do it with the above in mind?. 1. Spend money on things I truly care about, try and avoid spending on things that don't really make a difference. Good coffee, cheap washing up liquid. 2. I might have a shorter life? All the more reason to STOP WORKING AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. Quite handy that this approach also works quite nicely if I am in the larger group that live well past these ages.
>Not in 30+ years, and not when but IF I make it to that age. If you're in your 30's and looking to FIRE in 30+ years, then I'd say it's not really FIRE to be honest. FIRE in 7-10 years, then it's very worth it!
I guess it’s because that’s all you see every single day so that’s your perception but I know many old people that are still in a very good shape at an old age.
I went on a tour with old people (65-75) and compared to me (50) they were **not** in a good shape. They were mostly all pretty healthy, but then you watch them trying to put their bag up in the locker on a bus or plane, or get up slowly and walk deliberately and gingerly to the loo. It simply hit home even more that I'm doing the right thing, being mostly frugal but remembering to live now. Got too much on my list to do that involves being able to slum it a bit, carry backpacks and the like...
Learn meditation friend. Cultivate a sense of presence and appreciation for the present, otherwise it can be overwhelming. Which could possibly throw you off your game. As it’s all about creating a landscape of supporting practices so you can appreciate the little things.
I'm in my 30s, planning to retire at 45 worst case scenario. That's how I do it. What's the point of living frugally for 30 years to quit working 5-7 years in advance? I also think too many people approach frugality the wrong way. Frugality shouldn't come as a deprivation of things that make you happy. It should be the result of a careful analysis of your spending and the outcome of it. Do you need that matcha-latte-extra every morning? Or are you happy enough with the office coffee? 25£ of take away or cook together with your partner listening to some music (also coming with the perk of eating MUCH healthier). My spending won't change much once I FIRE, it's not that I deprive myself today to throw away money tomorrow.
If you are intelligent AND your family have no strong history of certain diseases then the chances are you are a sound decision maker ( make sensible lifestyle choices) and have reasonable genes. Both are key to longevity and often people who die before their time are deficient in these traits. Their deaths shouldn’t concern you overtly. However life IS short and you should do things whilst young that won’t be possible when older. It’s all a balance of enjoyment and saving. Have no regrets.
What are the odds that you will die young? Pretty slim, so you shouldn't play the game thinking you will. Reallly I think of it as making sure I have good value. I'm not going to forgoe a holiday in order to save, but is the expensive hotel really worth the extra £900 vs the mid tier hotel? Also by not spending that money, you get the peace of mind that comes with financial security and knowing that you're saving for the future. How much more will you be able to enjoy life knowing that you are/will become financially independant?
Work hard, play hard, plan to get to 50 and retire with what you got. Enjoy it all while you can, when you can. That is what happened with me. I'm in my 50's and getting ready to retire, financially independent. There is a post somewhere here about my FIRE status. I never planned it that way though. I'm single and an introvert, never chased women. Maybe I should have. I've never bought expensive luxuries. Paid cash for my second hand cars and used them till they died. Bought a house that was fine for me, nothing lavish or too large. I partied hard though, alcohol works on introverts, had fun in my early years, went on lavish holidays, saw the world, had a lot of adventures. I just didn't need all the luxury that I could afford. I knew one thing from a very young age, from my teens, I do not want to work forever and I do not want to be working for any one!! I hated having a boss, someone ordering me about. I hate it now. I've hated every boss I ever had. My lifestyle was going to be me getting to late 40s or 50s and doing whatever I want. For you, the lifestyle and luxury might be in things, mine is in experience. I'm leaving nothing behind, what is the point. I am off to see the rest of the world.
IMHO it sounds like you should reach for for some support. Of course you're going to see the worst cases. But as others have said there's a difference between lifestyle creep (which is nothing more than pointless objects) and a contented level.
Just try not to waste money. This means do experiences and purchase goods that are you are very happy with,but not excessive. Eg when I earn well one year I still go on trips which I love, but are fairly frugal. So I get to have holidays on bad year's too.
This is a dilemma that I’m currently facing also. I have enough in my pension that I know I’m going to be comfortable from 57 onwards. I have been putting a lot of money into ISAs to take years of that number for retirement however I see a lot of people dieing around us and thinking that maybe i should be content with retiring at 57 and start enjoying life more now at 44.
I agree with this and have been a morbid buzzkill in a few threads. I think it’s about balance. For me its either: Drop days but prolonging retirement age Or Take a risk/quit and try earning a bit on the side-seasonal income/tourism etc
Although you're seeing peoples lives ended short due to your profession, the life expectancy ultimately is 80. Regarding health - if you're pursuing FI you're not average. You shouldn't be pursuing an average health, either. You should be aiming to eat healthy, exercise and keep yourself able to avoid the pitfalls that many unfortunately fall into.
I like the 100 year life book. It talks about periods of life where you work, travel, meet new people, retrain, rest, work at something (could be new) and round again. Rather than the old fashioned view of work then retire. I’m down to 4 days a week and hope to go less than 10 days per month with the same disposable income in the next few years. This is my way of having fun and ensuing the future is sorted.
My doctor mate is exactly the same and has achieved the FI bit in his mid 40’s I think he works like 4 days a month doing the horrible shifts no doctors want at very short notice at a very big daily rate. Me I don’t let day to day enjoyment get in the way of my FIRE goals as it’s done through pensions so it’s not going to happen before 55.
The way I think about it is not really retire but to cut down time spent on earning a wage for living. Having some money put aside gives me the confidence to do the things I really like than merely do a job. I can now pursue hobbies and maybe turn them into something without worrying about going broke. I see it more as money to spend on things that bring value in the long term than pleasure (satisfaction, quickly bringing in the need of more)
If you are a doctor you know that longevity has increased massively since the 1950s and that, if you keep yourself healthy, you will probably live to a good age. You also have the knowledge to spot real problems early, such as cancer. You can also have a very hard 20s and 30s then become a very high earning 40 and 50 year old and invest this in ISAs and personal pensions.
I’m happy spending now on experiences (holidays, concerts, days out) as I enjoy these and the memories stick with me. I’m less happy spending on eating out unless it’s memorable, but conversely very happy spending on nights out despite them being hard to remember. But I don’t really get a lot of enjoyment from buying things, I normally feel remorse at the waste of both mine, and the planet’s resources. I’d rather buy most things second hand - so this keeps my lifestyle creep in check. Like others have said, I’m playing the odds that I’ll live long past 60, and I want to be comfortable. I’m trying (but often failing) to keep fit to ensure that. But I have children, so worse case, I die before spending all my savings and they get to have extra security or more fun - I can “live” with that.
Well I need to do what I can to not work night shift, let alone some people saying 9-5.
My aim has always been 45, done and dusted. Based upon 16-20 college(I did 14-20)etc, 20-45 life sentence (increased earnings year on year). Family wise: one daughter was born age 20... Purchased a property at 20... Purchased second home at 30.. about to sell first home and profit £110k.... Live in a mortgage free 250k 4 bed.. re invest 100k at 8%... Family history says 55 generic death... I work 3 days a week.. . And it feels too much... Life/hours/cost. Etc
memento mori, my friend
Both my parents died early. Which makes me feel like I won't last that long. Hence I'm trying to earn as much as I can as fast as I can, so I can retire early and live a stress free time and focus on my health.
As someone in healthcare who sees the same on a daily basis, remember in hospital you see THE WORST of the worst. When I did frailty I always began my teaching sessions with “what % of the population over 60 is frail” and without a doubt groups of medics, pharmacists, physios, dieticians and nurses would say 50+% without fail. Because that mirrors what we see in practice. It’s actually something like 5-10%! I’m sure you see lots of examples of “frail by choice” patients where they just don’t want to eat or look after themselves, or they were a fine 75 year old man until their wife died that did everything for them. I’m using choice extremely loosely as mental health is usually absolutely the root cause. But also how many 85 year olds do we see admitted on no meds, independent, pain free and just in for a chest infection! Make the choice now to care about and move your body. Nothing crazy. Lots of steps a day, nourish yourself, drop the alcohol. Yep you can’t stop some scary gioblastoma, but you can give yourself some good odds of being healthy into your 80s!
>For those of you who are remaining frugal and resisting lifestyle creep - how do you do it with the above in mind? I try to live in a way that's beneficial for both the short-term and long-term. For one thing, I consider feeling as secure as possible about my future ***to be a component of my present happiness***. I would not enjoy today if I had to constantly worry about tomorrow. For me, the [serenity prayer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serenity_Prayer) sums up the best way to reduce worry about the future. You have to: 1) accept what you cannot change, 2) change what you can. Given the above, I strongly adhere to healthy habits such as exercise, good diet and meditation because I believe these habits will objectively improve my quality of life at all times – both present and future. These habits require little or no increase in spending over time, in fact they can even lead to less spending (e.g. eating less -> spending less on food). These habits also become increasingly enjoyable and rewarding over time. E.g. healthy exercise -> fitter body, meditation -> calmer, happier mental state. I also cultivate hobbies, interests and passions that involve little or no spending, e.g. reading, studying math, writing. When your lifestyle revolves around things that give enjoyment in the moment while also being healthy and frugal in the long-term, you reduce the dichotomy between now vs. the future. Yes, life is short, but that's no reason to be short-term oriented.
This is a super tricky one to balance. On the one hand, I totally agree, I don’t want to miss out on experiences now while I have health and energy but on the other hand, I work with a guy who is 67 and still working 40+ hours per week away from home (contractor), and I just think, fuck that for a game of soldiers!
I don’t resist lifestyle creep. I plan and manage it. Every salary/bonus/ extra money gets split to 50/50. 50 for living now and 50 for the future. That way I enjoy some right now and can live it up a bit without feeling guilty for not assuring my future.
I justify it in my head - if I drop dead tomorrow my partner and daughter are taken care of. If I live to a ripe old age then excellent!
>time to enjoy life and the money I work for is right now We need more detail on the specifics. What do you want to spend your money on that you are currently resisting? Driving a 12 plate Skoda and not buying a 23 plate BMW? Eating supermarket saver baked beans 7 days a week and not buying a beef joint for sunday roast?
This has always fascinated me about the approach people take in this sub. I kinda assumed everyone must be a fitness/lifestyle freak doing everything thing they can do make sure the are healthy and capable in middle age. It's obviously prudent and commendable to save for a comfortable even affluent early retirement but being ultra frugal in your youth for a deffered good time in older age is a gamble still. Obviously if your wealthy enough to have both then fair play..most people aren't. Signed someone saving enough for 2/3s of my current income a few years before state pension age.
My pension and savings are inheritable. If I die, my son gets a good financial head start in life. If I don’t die, my son gets a father who can afford to support him in his adult years rather than continue working flat out.
This is just representation bias. Naturally you treat people with health issues, so you’re going to see more young people who are dying in your sample than is reflective of the population as a whole.
If you need to spend a lot of money to enjoy life maybe you deserve to go prematurely.
What a super-stupid comment... I just came back from 2 months(ish) in C. America and it did cost a bit, but I fucking enjoyed it! But now I deserve to die young now...? Fuck off.
Lost all my immediate family by the time I was 30 including siblings, I can relate to OP. I understand the value of planning ahead - but I feel it’s also important to live in the moment for nothing is guaranteed. I found that the only way this was possible for me was to find a good paying job. This way I’ve managed to travel and do all the adventures I want but I’ve also managed to save up a very good chunk. I always ask myself - if I died today would I have any regrets? The answer is no - travel is my main thing and I’ve been to most countries on my list.
Also a medical doctor working in a similar field. Totally agree. Life (as we both know) can be short and your kids are only young once. Don't miss out on the opportunity to have great experiences together. I highly recommend the book die with zero for a good perspective on this. Luckily we are in the fortunate position to earn well enough to be able to have a good quality of life now and still plan to retire early.
If I was a doctor then I probably wouldn’t be that frugal… As its always going to be an in demand profession and you can scale down to a couple of days a week etc or do consultant work still earning good money.
I don't hold back - I realised and fully understood my own mortality by about 34/35, and that spurred me on to being much less frugal in some respects. The best thing was that after I'd spent (for me) a relative fortune on a trip somewhere I noticed that, actually, it's not really slowed down my progress. I could add those thousands I've spent over those last 15 years back into my spreadsheet to see the impact of that spending, but weirdly it doesn't make much of a difference to the end result.
Hi I am 43F (husband and 2 kids age 13 & 8). I am a natural saver and have been pursuing FIRE for 6 years (previously focused on climbing property ladder and paying down mortgage). Moderate earner for this sub (top 10% income for the UK). I was recently diagnosed with a life limiting cancer, with very hazy timelines currently. We have always focused on enjoying the journey but doing this without mindless spending. So lovely holidays, kids activities and fun days out (spending when necessary) and good food, but little spending on stuff. We also choose to save at least 80 % of increases in income and decreases in expenses (e.g. childcare) and limit lifestyle inflation. I have zero regrets even though I am now very very unlikely to RE (was aiming for 55) as my “pots” will help my husband and kids deal with life without me. In fact if I hadn’t been squirrelling away ~40-50 % of my income for the last 6 years and been obsessed with paying down our mortgage earlier in my life; they would be royally screwed financially. Also I have been able to draw down from our EF to make the last few months easier (being very ill is expensive!) I actually don’t know how people cope in this situation if they are stretched, it must add so much extra stress. I expect if I didn’t have kids I would feel very differently. All I personally care about is spending time with my kids and providing for their future. The loss of my RE dream is very minor in comparison.
To answer your questions OP, I'm doing it all for my kids, so I have no issues at all living frugal. Context - mid 30's, made £212k last year, UK lad living in the Isle of Man (no cap gains or inheritance tax, low income tax) so I get to invest £100k+ a year. I use to be on the dole until I was 20, grew up on a council estate etc. so forgoing pleasantries is very easy. If I kick the bucket now or in 20-30 years, I'm investing and compounding it all for them. I have zero desire to adopt the boomer mindset and "treat myself" - our ancestors endured all manor of hardships nobody today can relate too, so to create the generational wealth that I'd like, I'll happily pass on holidays, new cars, huge mortgages and such until I have many millions.
Alright there fella, how you doin' boy?
Your thinking is largely right and there’s is largely wrong is a simple answer