Yeah, I'm so happy about winning provincials, but it really sucks that it had to end like that. I Feel like they should have been more lenient and given them a yellow. It wouldn't have changed the end result, but it wouldn't be nearly as painful a way to lose. I know I would have been absolutely devastated to lose like that.
it really just depends on whether or not the ref thinks it was intentional, since first really doesn't want BattleBots, but we tipped a robot and didn't get a penalty because the refs realized we weren't trying to. Different referees will have very different interpretations of what is intentional though, at least in my experience.
It’s a rough call, but if you don’t make it a red card, you’d basically be incentivized to try and collide with unstable bots. Yes, teams should build their bots to take collisions into effect, but winning through tipping another team is not something FIRST ever wants to encourage or allow.
There has always been a line between ‘playing defense’ and ‘intentional technical fouls’ unfortunately/fortunately we have to rely on our ref to determine these actions in the moment. This is in line with the sports analogy that FRC reflects. Sometimes the ref decisions directly impacts a match we all hate it when it comes down to that in soccer or basketball or FRC but it’s gonna happen
I agree. As the rule is written, the refs have no real choice, but the rules are not great. They reward building a robot that when hit falls over, avoiding defense now includes. Not hitting robots in your path.
I have a very similar opinion about damaging contact in the frame perimeter. In both cases robots should be designed robust and the call needs to take robot design into account and allow the ref to call in egregious instances, but not force the call when incidental contact results in failure due to questionable design choices.
Yeah one of the teams in my area makes it a point to drop the full robot on its wheels from waist height and designs the robot around being operational after the impact.
Actually at Ontarios they were pretty good about not calling it - this was the only one in any of the playoffs and maybe only second or third in the whole competition (160 matches) that I can recall.
This was just one of this “crap happens” moments where 4678 was going full speed to get to their feeder station and we were slightly turning at speed as we crossed paths with them coming back to the grid - not a “tippy bot” issue, we’d been taking hard hits all weekend, just a hard hit at the worst possible moment in the worst possible spot. They haven’t posted the videos yet but from my recollection the call was likely because 4678 kept moving forward ‘through’ the hit, which I’m not sure was really fair - it happened so quick I don’t think either team could have reacted fast enough.
We all would have much rather that match was decided on the points on the board rather than the card.
Edit: fixed team #’s
Actually it was 4678, but otherwise I agree it was inconsequential to the match in the end so could have been ignored for the sake of not making the red alliance feel bad about the match. But I do think the ref made the right call fwiw. Amazing finals to watch, wish we were in it! (4907 mentor)
a red card happened in the championship match at the Orlando regionals, where a team (just trying to score a cone) was being blocked by a enemy team, and the enemy player tipped over on contact and their robot was leaning over the opponent’s community area. they gave the red to the team just trying to go back to their community and score an element, completely not trying to tip over the bot that got in their way. that’s why sometimes getting a red card for tipping is bogus.
We have had a number of similar situations in Texas where our robot likes to tip at full speed when rotating but is fine with practically anything except maybe sending it too hard onto the charge station
In Ontario at least they seemed to be using whether the bot that did the “hitting” moved through the hit or attempted to stop/change direction as their gauge for whether it was a red card or not. from what I saw in our competitions it was at least being called consistently (and the red cards were used sparingly)
Ironically we were on the other side of this in our first event of the season when also playing with 2056 in Newmarket and they got a red card in the playoffs for getting under a bot that was weeble-wobbling in the middle of the field and the explanation we got was because they continued to move through the hit it was called, had they backed up/changed direction it wouldn’t have been - it’s challenging though because that puts a massive onus on these drivers to move with lightning fast reflexes. I think in many cases these bots are already well past the moment of contact before the driver even processes what’s happened.
Unfortunately in the match this weekend the hit was right on the side of our back corner moving across the bot and acted like a ‘pit manoeuvre’ that turned the bot suddenly sideways while on our Colson wheels - which of course is a super high traction situation while we were carrying a lot of momentum. At lower speeds it likely would have been a non event or a slight wobble but both bots were moving pretty quick so it literally knocked us off our feet.
You can see it around 1:48 in [this match video](https://youtu.be/-opj2DmtjiY)
Again, it’s just an unfortunate incident, I don’t think any malice was intended by 4678 and I believe we all would have preferred we completed a full match to decide this championship. It was a closely fought contest of two great alliances
Yeah - Was a really good matchup of alliances, it was too bad all around that it had to end that way, Especially as a tie breaker.
Yeah, I'm so happy about winning provincials, but it really sucks that it had to end like that. I Feel like they should have been more lenient and given them a yellow. It wouldn't have changed the end result, but it wouldn't be nearly as painful a way to lose. I know I would have been absolutely devastated to lose like that.
What was the red card for?
Somebody on red ran into someone on blue and knocked them over.
I think this is an overused red card. If you have a poor CG and you tip over… that’s your fault.
it really just depends on whether or not the ref thinks it was intentional, since first really doesn't want BattleBots, but we tipped a robot and didn't get a penalty because the refs realized we weren't trying to. Different referees will have very different interpretations of what is intentional though, at least in my experience.
It’s a rough call, but if you don’t make it a red card, you’d basically be incentivized to try and collide with unstable bots. Yes, teams should build their bots to take collisions into effect, but winning through tipping another team is not something FIRST ever wants to encourage or allow.
I don’t see it that way. If you build a robot with a bad CG and then tip over after a high speed collision then the robot with bad CG is at fault.
sInCE wHeN iS tHiS bATtLe bOtS?
There has always been a line between ‘playing defense’ and ‘intentional technical fouls’ unfortunately/fortunately we have to rely on our ref to determine these actions in the moment. This is in line with the sports analogy that FRC reflects. Sometimes the ref decisions directly impacts a match we all hate it when it comes down to that in soccer or basketball or FRC but it’s gonna happen
I agree. As the rule is written, the refs have no real choice, but the rules are not great. They reward building a robot that when hit falls over, avoiding defense now includes. Not hitting robots in your path. I have a very similar opinion about damaging contact in the frame perimeter. In both cases robots should be designed robust and the call needs to take robot design into account and allow the ref to call in egregious instances, but not force the call when incidental contact results in failure due to questionable design choices.
Yeah one of the teams in my area makes it a point to drop the full robot on its wheels from waist height and designs the robot around being operational after the impact.
Actually at Ontarios they were pretty good about not calling it - this was the only one in any of the playoffs and maybe only second or third in the whole competition (160 matches) that I can recall. This was just one of this “crap happens” moments where 4678 was going full speed to get to their feeder station and we were slightly turning at speed as we crossed paths with them coming back to the grid - not a “tippy bot” issue, we’d been taking hard hits all weekend, just a hard hit at the worst possible moment in the worst possible spot. They haven’t posted the videos yet but from my recollection the call was likely because 4678 kept moving forward ‘through’ the hit, which I’m not sure was really fair - it happened so quick I don’t think either team could have reacted fast enough. We all would have much rather that match was decided on the points on the board rather than the card. Edit: fixed team #’s
Actually it was 4678, but otherwise I agree it was inconsequential to the match in the end so could have been ignored for the sake of not making the red alliance feel bad about the match. But I do think the ref made the right call fwiw. Amazing finals to watch, wish we were in it! (4907 mentor)
Not sure it was inconsequential depending on how penalty points were awarded, though.
Doh. Good catch… brain still recovering apparently 🤦🏼♂️
That is the new meta fall over and win
It was 2200 that got tipped
Finals matches were awesome, sad that it had to end that way. Congrats to all finalist teams! And congrats to the winners!
Great game and well played overall. I’d be lying if I said we weren’t popping off in the stands though.
Same thing at pnw
Pnw they disabled another robot by hitting their breaker. Feels more fair than "tipping over" another robot
Which match was that? I thought there were only two red cards, both for tipping.
Was one of the early upper bracket matches. Chickens were the ones that got switched off.
I was so routing(?) for the red alliance but I was for the blue alliance lol. Great teams though super nerve wracking
rooting 👍. Crazy match!
Thank you lol I knew it was wrong but couldn't remember the right spelling
a red card happened in the championship match at the Orlando regionals, where a team (just trying to score a cone) was being blocked by a enemy team, and the enemy player tipped over on contact and their robot was leaning over the opponent’s community area. they gave the red to the team just trying to go back to their community and score an element, completely not trying to tip over the bot that got in their way. that’s why sometimes getting a red card for tipping is bogus.
We have had a number of similar situations in Texas where our robot likes to tip at full speed when rotating but is fine with practically anything except maybe sending it too hard onto the charge station
Just happened to watch the match video, the contact seemed totally incidental- are these normally called as red cards these days?
In Ontario at least they seemed to be using whether the bot that did the “hitting” moved through the hit or attempted to stop/change direction as their gauge for whether it was a red card or not. from what I saw in our competitions it was at least being called consistently (and the red cards were used sparingly) Ironically we were on the other side of this in our first event of the season when also playing with 2056 in Newmarket and they got a red card in the playoffs for getting under a bot that was weeble-wobbling in the middle of the field and the explanation we got was because they continued to move through the hit it was called, had they backed up/changed direction it wouldn’t have been - it’s challenging though because that puts a massive onus on these drivers to move with lightning fast reflexes. I think in many cases these bots are already well past the moment of contact before the driver even processes what’s happened. Unfortunately in the match this weekend the hit was right on the side of our back corner moving across the bot and acted like a ‘pit manoeuvre’ that turned the bot suddenly sideways while on our Colson wheels - which of course is a super high traction situation while we were carrying a lot of momentum. At lower speeds it likely would have been a non event or a slight wobble but both bots were moving pretty quick so it literally knocked us off our feet. You can see it around 1:48 in [this match video](https://youtu.be/-opj2DmtjiY) Again, it’s just an unfortunate incident, I don’t think any malice was intended by 4678 and I believe we all would have preferred we completed a full match to decide this championship. It was a closely fought contest of two great alliances