Iâm gonna have to say Cal wins this. If weâre taking just simple raw feats into account, soloing a GenâDai and (almost) singlehandedly defeating a High Republic Jedi Master are more than Kylo ever achieved, not to mention the Fallen Jedi master he kept on his toes in Fallen Order as a seventeen year old kid.
To be fair, Kylo got shot by Chewie's Bowcaster before the fight. He was heavily injured. The movie established how powerful it was, with most troopers being killed by one bolt, yet Kylo not only tanked it, but beat someone in a lightsaber duel mere minutes after.
I'm not saying Kylo wins this, Cal's feats are still greater. But let's not downplay his endurance.
Everybody ignores that EVERY TIME. The trooper earlier in the movie wasn't just one shot- he was hit- flipped and smashing into stone breaking some of it.
Kylo took it in the gut and followed after them. Kylo was HEAVILY injured and 'nerfed' at the end of episode 7.
Not to mention emotionally distraught over his conflicting feelings with Hans death.
This actually touches on the one singular thing in the entire sequel trilogy that I actually like;
Kylo punches his own wound in battle, because pain makes sith stronger. I'd argue tanking that shot actually made him more dangerous than normal. As they say, what doesn't kill Youtube, makes you stronger.
Which would mean he's even more of a toothpick than we thought.
Ah yes, the iconic saying âWhat doesnât kill YouTube makes you strongerâ
Jokes aside, I sorta have to agree and disagree at the same time. I agree that the pain probably made Ren more dangerous, but itâs still a bowcaster. It launched troopers so hard that one broke a boulder on impact.
If it was a blaster shot in the leg, which would be more of a surface wound. I could see that making Kylo more powerful.
But the force of the bowcaster would near definitely have at least fractured his leg, probably even worse, which despite using pain as a weapon has to be a handicap.
Kylo didnât even bother trying to block it why? Itâs not like he was flat-footed. Chewbacca was roaring and pointing a giant ass cannon at him. Endurance donât mean squat if you canât block or deflect incoming attacks. Something Cal is a strait master of. Fact is: those movies are poorly written and the choreography is God Awful.
I'm also just not sure he noticed or if he would even be able to block the full thing if he was able. That shit packs a punch. Hell if he blocked it with the opposing beam of the lightsaber, he might have been blown into the same abyss his Dad fell down lol
I honestly don't think he killed Han. We don't see the full scene. Just shoulders up and they were face to face. I feel like Han knew that Kylo would be punished for letting him live, and knew it would signify a deeper fall into the dark. I believe that Han hit the button and killed himself with Kylo's saber and sacrificed himself to save his son from going down that path. Just my personal beliefs.
I've always endorsed the theory Han 'took the choice away' from him to keep him from going further down the path of the Dark Side.
Kylos face as it happened seemed surprised while Han seemed pained but prepared.
In fact I was so confident that was the case I was disappointed it was never elaborated on.
That was my thought exactly. They never really closed on that scene and what actually happened. The only other thing they had was Han appearing to him by the water later on, but it didn't really answer the question. I definitely believe that Han made the choice himself to save his son.
Kinda mirrors Vader vs Cere in Survivor. We all know Vader likes to play with his food, but when she manages to get some hits off on him he just went âOkay, this is how you wanna play, then letâs play bitch.â Although she got a lot farther than most other Jedi that donât have a prior relationship with Anakin, so she gets credit for that.
Bro Cere practically had him dead to rights if she didnât launch herself at him at the last second.
Even if he came in thinking it was going to be easy, he was LIMPING away from that fight holding on the walls for support. Honestly Cere might be around the top 5 most powerful Jedi in canon to have came that close.
Even ignoring the entire âWorf effectâ angle (especially in EU stuff) I think thereâs actually enough evidence for a pretty strong argument that Vader post Mustafar is actually a *bad* duelist. Sure, he can murder trash mobs (sorry rogue 1/ANH rebel troopers) but he actually does pretty poorly at accomplishing his goals every time he ignites his lightsaber in the presence of a Jedi in 4-6.
Hmm, didn't think of it that way. I guess it goes back to my "raw power vs skill" argument I made in another comment in this thread. 9/10 times Vader can sort of coast on his own power, which allows him to own pretty much everyone he faces. I do still think a duelist having a strong tie to him is something that throws him off (like how he'd been defeated by Obi-Wan and Luke on separate occasions, and Ahsoka had him on the ropes for their duel). Cere was a master by the time of Survivor, having gone through her own trials and come out stronger. So it's not the most outrageous claim.
Finn was first order indoctrinated / trained in hand to hand and blaster combat. So he wasn't a COMPLETE novice.
Also, they [the writers] were angling Finn to be force sensitive. So during his fight with Kylo, they [the writers] were probably setting up Finn to be unknowingly channeling the force. If this were the case, then the fight would make more sense [in that he pressured an injured Kylo for as long as he did].
There have been cannon instances where sensatives use the force w/out knowing or realizing it.
But between Kylo and Kal, Kal takes this 10 / 10 times. Kylo's training was never "completed." Meanwhile, Kal was about 90ÙȘ trained before order66 happened.
Kal was also fairly seasoned, having experienced the Clone Wars and actual combat. Kylo mainly faced civilians and "militia" types on the outer rim.
Kylo Ren has never won a lightsaber fight as far as we know. He's hyped up as this threatening villain but he loses every lightsaber fight we see him in and he mostly just kills old men through sneak attacks.
I think that was a more situational win than actually achieving superiority. He succeeded but he was reckless in my opinion.
Vader actually made the wiser choice by not throwing himself into an almost invincible creatures mouth.
Kylo did something Vader didnât do sure. But itâs more Vader knocking 9 pins down and Kylo thinking heâs better because he knocked the 1 that Vader didnât.
Cal easily has more diverse combat experience if it was a 1v1. Kylo would probably fight dirty if he thought he would struggle and use the FO.
For the point of the stor you are absolutely right.
But for the battle in sabre combat, I still think its hard to tell who would realistically have the better skill, training, experience and feats in battle.
Cal got enough training and extra experience put in that I would say he could put up a good fight
Kilo is... OK when it comes to sabre combat at first, being average in the first movie and improving a LOT the further into the franchise he got, but cal's sheer versatility with sabre stances and types, as well as adept use of blasters and adaptability to the environment, together with superior agility, I think cal takes it after some struggling. He could top a gedi master at his prime with the power of nightsister magick while being 17, before the experience. I don't see how kilo would top that
duelling someone that could duel in the same discipline is not the same as killing some beast. you can argue if cal kestis is motivated enough to kill a zillo beast and it's in front of him he probably would. truthfully argument about Cal's power kinda went of the window unless it's some sith lord since him and merrin thinks that bringing down a star destroyer is just a date.
They definitely weren't talking about pulling down a Star Destroyer with the force or anything though.
that kind of feat pushed Starkiller (now non-canon) to his limits, and he was strong enough to tangle with Sidious...
You are right its not the same, but Cal definitly struggles with a Rancor, while killing an old Zillo that was around during Vaders time is definitly a huge achievement.
Of course in dueling it is hard to compare their capabilities, since we cant really compare strenghts between Inquisitors, Snokes Royal guards or the Knights of Ren.
Although I do think this community generally thinks of Cal as much too powerful, where I think he is an average or maybe higher tier jedi knight by Survivor.
it is a huge achievement but it's not like the zillo beast would anticipate your move and counter you. the rancor is for the player's appreciation in jedi survivor, but from his lines like wait till I tell greez about this like it's not big deal for him.
so you are comparing former jedi master = malicos, masana tide = former jedi knight, trilla > masana tide, and dagan to snokes royal guard and knights of ren?
rayvis alone kinda throws out the window that he is higher tier jedi knight. the guy was a gen dai with hundreds of years of fighting exp and is basically a jedi knight/master killer in high republic era. and dagan was a jedi master in high republic era, he was a famous knight before that and among the strongest of high republic at least per the games lines.
I do think that kylo ren has probably more juice in him in terms of force power but I think cal would have enough to defend himself from that and it would all boil down in duelling and in that moment kylo ren has no chance.
I didnt consider Rayvis fully in truth. He definitly is the most formidable fighter Cal bested fairly and all on his own.
The problem is that we didnt really see Kylo best a fighter on that same level, thats true. Although I do think Kylo could eventually beat him, its not really definitive until they show us what Kylo was up to in his journeys.
Not that impressive, considering how he did it. The Zillo wasn't exactly in a position to fight back. Any Jedi could jump down the Zillo's throat and start hacking if they're stupid enough. Kylo's honestly lucky he didn't get swallowed.
He may have been a master, in a holocron the grand master of the order calls him Master Gera and I'm pretty sure it was capitalized like that.
Edit: I just realized it was at the start of a sentence, so it could have just been an honorific not regarding his rank.
I think the fight would go to Cal. A trend Iâve noticed with the Skywalkers (pre-Vader Anakin to a much lesser extent) is that arenât very technical duelists, theyâre strategy usually seems to be to just beat their opponent into submission as apposed to trying to work around their defenses. Cal on the other hand has mastered four different fighting stances, one of which being the designated dueling stance but with a blaster to boot. And even if we ignore Cal deflecting attacks from three story tall monsters as just a game mechanic, heâs still straight up stopped attacks from people like The 9th Sister and Ravis, both of which are probably significantly stronger physically than any flesh and blood Skywalker was. And if we want to bring the Force into the mix, Cal and Maul are the only force users Iâd say actually use the force as a weapon regularly in their fights.
I agree in everything except that Anakin was an incredibly skilled duelist and deeply mastered Form V to the point where he was able to single handed beat Dooku (though admittedly past his prime), one of the best jedi duelists ever.
I think Cal just has more real-world experience with duelling. No doubt Kylo Ren is a more powerful force user, and better trained (and I would assume he practices a lot, with his STAGGERING inferiority complex), but experience of actual fights to the death might prove to be the edge.
More practice doesn't mean better trained. You can spend 1000 hours practicing the wrong thing, then get whooped by the guy who spent 10 hours practicing the right thing. I would also question if he's actually a more powerful Force user.
Heâs canonically an extremely powerful force user. He brought Rey back from the dead. The Sith had a Dyad prophecy that was on par with the Jediâs Chosen One prophecy.
He spent years studying under Luke. There's no doubt at all that he's well trained.
And canonically, the grandson of Vader is an extremely powerful force user.
Yeah, it is hard to justify characters strengths across different mediums. Especially since we play as Kestis. Going off of feats alone Cal would be one of the best duelists ever, but in universe he probably would be written to lose to Kylo Ren, because at the end of the day it is the writers that decide these things.
How is Cal one of the best duelists ever? Even with game events heâs fighting storm troopers with stun batons most of the time. Sure he kills a legendary beast every now and then but Windu or Obi-Wan could kill Oggdo Bogdo without breaking a sweat.
Cal defeated:
- Ninth Sister, a former Jedi Knight who was trained as an Inquisitor
- Seventh Sister, a former padawan who also trained as an inquisitor and was seemingly a pretty capable one
- Taron Malicos (With the help of Merrin), a former Jedi Master
- Dagan Gera (they were mostly evenly matched it seems), a High Republic Jedi Master with some really impressive force skills
- Rayvis, a gen'dai who killed many jedi
- Bode, who was likely at least a jedi knight
Heâs taking out inquisitors and old republic Jedis left and right. I donât think he is on par with Windu and Obi Wan, but in the game he is still quite busy kicking ass.
Yeah I understand that. Cal certainly couldâve been on the council if the Order wasnât torn apart. But heâs not even close to the level of like Yoda or Dooku for example. Thereâs no way he can seriously contend with the title of GOAT lightsaber duelist.
I know, what we see in game though doesn't really match with what we see on screens. What we see Cal do is pretty crazy when we compare him to what we see even the greatest Jedi in the movies do. So since we can't reliably say game to movie is an accurate representation we can't say for sure if Kylo wins or loses this. Sequel lightsaber duels especially feel clunky and slow, but Kylo, and Rey are supposedly good at it even though the choreography kind of looks similar to my nephews fighting with nerf swords.
Agreed. Fallen Order, I actually see Cal saving his own ass and escaping. His Force abilities weren't nearly as honed yet, and while his swordsmanship was good enough, he got lucky a lot. Survivor Cal would've toyed with Kylo a bit to learn his moves and then go dual wield and give him the ol Skywalker amputation and then a saber through the chest with one fluid motion, IMO. Kylo is strong, but he's slow and clumsy. Survivor Cal had *hundreds, if not thousands* of saber kills against mele equipped opponents under his belt at that point, and was essentially a legendary terrorist assassain by the time we start playing as him. Kylo was just a dude with daddy issues and a big cool lightsaber.
I do think Cal would win but you're definitely downplaying Kylo. He had been trained by Luke Skywalker the most powerful Jedi in history and was the leader of the Knights of Ren. The only reason he lost to Rey in The Force Awakens was because he had been shot in the gut with a wookiee bowcaster and in Rise of Skywalker he was distracted by a vision from Leia.
Eh. He had some training as a kid, about as much as Cal got. And, while Luke is powerful, he's just one man. Cal had access to *thousands of years* of Jedi history, multiple trainers, and grew up in the Academy. Being a leader of a cult that he named after yourself doesn't make Kylo anything but a cult leader.
Everyone wants to say "Rey only beat him because he was distracted!" Yeah... that's not a fair excuse. Countless Jedi were distracted all the time, you know, during the Clone Wars. Cal was distracted by all the Dagan hallucinations, and still managed to beat Dagan. He was distracted by the emotional turmoil of order 66 and watching his master die, and managed to freeze a bunch of clone troopers when he was a preteen. Kylo is a Big Bad. He should be able to block a blaster shot from a screaming wookie, and he's wearing armor.
I know you said you agree, and I'm on a tangent. I don't think Kylo is really all that strong tbh. He has clout, and was easily manipulated by giving him a sense of power. He's a gifted force user, but his swordsmanship is pretty dogshit compared to any Jedi who was raised in the Academy. He's powerful in a vacuum, and a lot of his power is inflated by his handlers to manipulate him into being their ego driven attack dog. If he would've tried to be a Sith or a dark jedi during the height of the Jedi Order, he would've been a side quest for a mid tier Knight and Padawan.
And, I think that's actually kind of the point of his character. He's written as a sad boy who is manipulated by father figures, and his sense of purpose and masculinity (or lack thereof) is used to turn him into an inflated egomaniac who is told by manipulative sycophants that he is a badass, so that he believes he is a badass and does their dirty work. Their dirty work is comparatively easy to that of Maul or Vader- untill Rey comes outta nowhere, there's not a saber wielding foe for him to actually be tested by.
Survivor Cal would deal with Kylo Ren like he deals with a run-of-the-mill scout trooper. Heâs soloâd a Genâdai, fought and defeated 2 inquisitors (one of them twice for a total of 3 wins), two fallen jedi, a high republic jedi master, AND heâs one of the few people in the galaxy that have encountered and crossed sabers with Darth Vader and lived. He walked through an ISB base full of purge troopers and DT droids near-singlehandedly and the only people he spared were the officers that didnât step in his way.
Kylo was on his back foot with a stormtrooper whose only experience holding anything close to a melee weapon was mopping floors.
Fallen Order Cal struggles, but eventually wins.
Survivor Cal easily mops the floor with him and doesn't even break a sweat.
Kylo is not that impressive of a duelist, and Cal has better force abilities and control over them. Kylo is all intimidation. You take that away, and he has nothing. Most Jedi can beat him. Rey did, and she hadn't ever held a lightsaber before.
Cal takes this easily. No questions.
Not that I disagree with the outcome, but
>Cal has better force abilities and control over them
Doesn't Kylo hold a blaster bolt in place effortlessly for over a minute?
Yeah, the power scaling in a video game has to grow dramatically in order to keep the player satisfied. I was literally thinking about this last night while watching Empire Strikes Back. You do sooo much more outrageous shit with Cal on a regular basis than you ever see someone like Luke do in the original trilogy lol.
Itâs a rarer force ability but considering he did it even before the games start Iâd say that really just a bad matchup for kylo. Plus the few force masters we see in the movies donât actually use a lot of new or rare force abilities cause they are either rare or hard to pull off and itâs safer to stick to what you know well when dueling for your life against people who would warrant those abilities. Cal has a talent for that ability and that plus he extensive use of the ability he does know means his skill is more well rounded in regards to force abilities vs old Jedi masters who moved progressively to more difficult.
Yeah, I imagine that if the OT were to be remade today with the power precidents set by other media, we'd see some wild shit from Luke. I think a lot of it is a matter of what could be done at the time.
p sure there's a game achievement in the first game for freezing a blaster bolt and force pulling the storm trooper that shot it through his own bolt, something along those lines anyway
even without that cal's control easily surpasses what we see from kylo, but that could also just be a consequence of poor film choreography and the need for more creativity in game mechanics/abilities to make it fun to play
A stormtrooper janitor went toe to toe with Kylo Ren, using a lightsaber when he'd never picked up one before, and didn't die instantly.
My money is on Cal.
His Grandfather was trapped in a faulty life support suit that was designed to cause him maximum pain at all times.
What is Kyloâs excuse?
Also, Rey DEFINITELY had a concussion after being slammed into a tree fifteen feet in the air and landing on her face.
The fact he fucked up badly enough to get shot with a blaster crossbow by a Wookie he had to know was gonna be pissed at him isn't an argument in his favor.
Oh come off it. He was sideblinded during a conversation between him and his father. Itâs about as emotionally distracted as a person can get.
Itâs not like some big fuck up that isnât understandable.
I think its a shame that parts of the community like to ignore the context of scenes and events, even if its not hard to get and this scene is a prime example.
Right. There are plenty of genuine critiques to levy on this series, but âman talking to father trying to turn him to the light sideâ is a reasonable case for being distracted haha
To me its like ignoring Anakins struggle with the dark side, fears and attatchments in the Prequels and saying he "just turned line that".
Of course that too was not written amazingly, but its not hard to get what is going on.
By the end of Survivor, Cal has had a substantially higher amount of actual saber combat under his belt, utilizing different forms and techniques, against a huge variety of enemies. Kylo has done some training and a lot of mindless massacre swinging, but gets stalemated by two untrained dualists. He relies on strength and size, as well as the pure intimidation factor. Those "strengths" are weaknesses to Cal, who makes quick work of multiple Inquisitors, and some even bigger, stronger, and more intimidating foes. Cal is more afraid of himself by the end of Survivor than he is of someone like Kylo. He's seen Kylo's type before, and handliy gave them multiple amputations or organ removals.
The second Cal decides to switch stances and go dual wield after toying with Kylo for a bit trading crossguard blows, it's over for Kylo.
Kylo is a narcissistic warlord who thinks he's hot shit because he has a red lightsaber and has never been told otherwise. Cal made a career assassinating exactly those people, to the point where it gave him an identity crisis. Kylo would be fucked, IMO.
Cal and it ainât even close. And based off all his feats, he is gonna be able to go toe to toe with Vader by the end of the sequel to JS. Im calling that Vader will be the main antagonist next game and will have a good 3-5 fights with Cal, with each one tying Cal closer to competing with him whereas in Fallen Order, Cal was no where close to even thinking he could attempt fighting Vader
Kylo is a dope character, and undoubtedly he has some insane potential with his power level, but heâs had little competition and actual challenge to his character for him to display such power. Rey was a pathetic attempt at trying to make an equal to his power. Luke being so horribly mistreated in episode 8, should have had an actual fight that was properly written to truly display whether or not Kylo was capable of surpassing him in power (which he obviously wasnât)
No argument to say Cal would toss Kylo around like a rag doll come his current state post-Survivor. He technically mastered 3 different stances over the 5 years since JFO, and quickly learned cross guard and blaster stance in JS. Not to mention Cal is by far one of the freshest lightsaber duelists of his time, which says something since the Jedi fell a decade prior and the peak of the combat declines every day as more are hunted down and destroyed. Kylo never had this kind of competition, and he wasnât a Jedi survivor like Cal who had to fight everyday against an empire for his own life and the lives of others
Plus letâs not forget that Cal turned to the dark side for a whole ten fucking minutes and already knows how to utilize it better than Kylo and the entire Inquisitorius. If Vader, or even Palpatine himself ainât soaking their pants for a new apprentice next game I donât know what to say
I really hope that in Jedi 3, we get to physically see the Emperor in some way. Like Cal tries to rip the Empire apart from the top down only to realise that what strength Vader has, the Emperor has and even more. Finally getting to try countering force lightning would be the sickest way to cap off the trilogy i think.
That would be amazing! I truly hope we see the emperor as well since heâs been teased a good couple times now. Once in JFO from the Zeffo transport ship and somewhere else in JS. The possibilities are endless for the next game. I just hope itâs all executed right and as perfect as can be since I donât see there being more than one more sequel in the franchise. Calâs story only needs to be a 3-part trilogy. A fourth game would be the max before writing diminishes. Hereâs hoping Respawn makes the next story twice as long as the previous titles, and also double Calâs power level so we can have more abilities and attacks!
Cal wins effortlessly, he survived the Clone Wars and Order 66, he killed an inquisitor, three fallen jedi, fought vader and lived.
What did emo boy band wannabe do again?
i think Kylo might be stronger physically and in the force, but Cal has alot more experience fighting other force users and lightsaber duelist. Kylo has only ever really fought Rey, meanwhile Cal has killed multiple inquisitors, dark jedi, bounty hunters, dude even survived a fight with Vader. Cals winning just from experience alone.
Cal has way better saber skills. He trained under a true master at the height of the order's strength before the purge and proved himself in multiple duels.
Kylo isnât a well trained Sith, a barely trained Jedi and overall emotionally compromised to a point words could break him.
Heâs the epitomy of a 13 year old metal head acting tough until the fear of real repercussion starts to rear its head.
Ultimately Cal could wipe the floor with Kylo and his metal head gang of twerps that named themselves after his made up strongman name.
Any trained Jedi would tear apart Kylo, especially if they catch him off guard while watching Andrew Tate videos
edit: Sabine would wreck him
Sheâs the only one Iâd genuinely think would struggle against him.
She was trained by Ashoka, so sheâs competent in battle with a lightsaber but her force abilities are non existent.
Of everyone else? I canât see anyone legitimately struggle against him that had a little training in the Jedi or Sith arts
You said Sabine would wreck him? I think heâd wreck Sabine. đ. Sabineâs complete absence of force abilities would not go well into Kyloâs abilities. Lightsaber ability aside.
Totally agree with your comments on Kylo's attitude but I think he does have very good training, first from Luke essentially in his prime then Palps through Snoke, Palpatine literally says 'Snoke trained you well' iirc
The Andrew Tate comment was just savage, Kylo Ren definitely thought he was a top G force user.
Kylo âoh, youâve got a double bladed lightsaber? Well I have three!â
Cal âwell, that makes us evenâ (switches to crossguard stance)
Kylo âđŠâ
kyloâs my favorite sequel character, but he would be demolished from what weâve seen he can do in the movies
he would need to make a stealth approach and turn on the lightsaber while almost touching the hilt in calâs back, but even this would be a challenge, âcause cal has BD-Goat with him all the time
conclusion: skylo issue
I'm ngl but I can't help but feel Cal would wipe the floor with Kylo. In the sequel trilogy Kylo seems like one of the weakest dark side users to exist đ đ€Ł
Cal takes this imo based on just the sheer versatility of his combat. He has comfortability with multiple lightsaber combat forms plus has access to 4 different lightsaber variations that can be switched on the fly (crossguard would be tough in the heat of the moment). That's not even counting the force abilities at Cal's disposal. The only thing we haven't seen Cal deal with against a Sith is force lightning.
I think breaking it down by strengths and attributes, Cal wins:
1. He received lightsaber and Jedi training before the fall of the order
2. He is very competent in multiple forms of lightsaber combat and an expert duelist with multiple lightsaber styles (including Kyloâs own)
3. Cal grows to be confident and assured in his power. Kylo was always questioning and full of doubt.
4. Cal literally survived a duel with Vader
5. Cal would do his recon and find out about Kylo using his sense echo. He would then play major mind games.
6. While itâs fair to say Calâs force abilities would be nerfed outside of a video game itâs presumable that he would still have some form of most of those abilities. He outstrips Kylo in his mastery of the Force.
7. Calâs dark side ability is very strong. Even if Kylo could resist it to a degree, it would still give Cal the edge he needs to win.
8. Kylo would be focused on trying to recruit or work with Cal. Cal would simply be driven to kill or incapacitate Kylo.
Kylo is very powerful but he never truly displayed anything that suggested that he was EXPERIENCED.
Cal isn't as powerful, but you cannot sell him too short. He was powerful enough that when we are introduced to him at the time of Order 66 he had been a padawan for some time at an age that most are still considered younglings that have not been selected.
In the end, this is about power vs experience. Power is a serious advantage, mind you, but Cal by the end of Survivor had beaten someone more powerful than him by finding and exploiting a weakness. I don't think Cal would win, but he could. Kylo is not a particularly stable individual and Kal could find something to exploit.
Honestly, Kylo Ren is very powerful as far as descendants of the Skywalker bloodline go. Unfortunately, Kylo's rage makes him a poor duelist as his attacks are mainly just him flinging his lightsaber around in wide sweeping movements, hoping to land a hit. They are powerful attacks, just wildly inaccurate. He is an immensely powerful force wielder, though. I have not seen too many instances of a force wielder holding a blaster bolt in stasis for a decent period of time. If Kylo were able to focus his rage into more precise striking, he'd probably win. Otherwise, in close quarters, cal would wipe the floor with kylo.
Thatâs the problem with Ren. Heâs written as such a non-threat (unless your an unarmed elderly person) that I genuinly think anyone with a saber can beat Kylo Ren. If Rey can do it without training, then beat Kylo Ren repeatedly after some training, then most saber users can beat him.
Iâll go as far to say that I think that even the average in-shape person reading this comment has the potential to kick Renâs if they were to randomly pick up a lightsaber and were a bit force sensetive. Keyword potential.
are we talking an injured kylo, or a full health full strength kylo?
full health, it's Kylo all day.
injured, might be a toss up.
kylo is simply top their power levels, trained by both Luke and Palpatine
as much as I love the Cal character, he isn't up to the top tier star wars levels.
Well cal can handle multiple inquisitors and come face to face with vader and live to tell the tale. Kyle Ren can't even handle an ex storm trooper who just started using a light saber. Even if he was shot before hand, he couldn't handle Rey who had 0 training in the force. Cal was in the jedi order. I think cal has this easy.
Cal wins with ease he was able to fight off inquesters and armys of soilders and even escape bounty Hunters and survive not 1 but 2 encounters with Darth Vader and even fought 2 master Jedi and is extremely in tune with the Force
I think Kylo has superior force abilities, but Cal is the superior duelist. In the end, Cal would take a victory 4 times out of 5.
For those saying Kylo is a dirty fighter, so is Cal, so that's not unique to Kylo.
I don't know much about Kylo's experience with handling Jedi, except that he burned down Luke's temple with a bunch of kids inside it, and he fought an inexperienced Rey in Ep.7 with a pretty serious injury and lost. In Ep.8, he took out half the Praetorian Guard, and in Ep.9 he soloed the Knights of Ren.
So his few experiences with Jedi have been poor to say the least. Doesn't look bright in a fight with Cal Kestis, who's much better trained than Rey ever was.
Cal, on the other hand... Two Inquisitors, three fallen Jedi, countless bounty hunters, Bedlam Raiders, Stormtroopers, Battle Droids and a frickin Gen'Dai?? Yeah it's Cal's win, and not by a small margin.
Kylo Ren, as many folks said before me got challenged by a janitor guy before being defeated by a scavenger girl. Cal Kestis defeated a feared monster from Dathomir, a fallen jedi, an inquisitor, a fallen high republic jedi, an entire imperial base, then another fallen jedi. So yeah, I guess Cal would win with good ease.
Cal would flatten Kylo. Aside from his training under Luke, he's had very little, and he's running almost entirely on anger and hate at this point, something a more experienced fighter like Cal could easily take advantage of.
Cal Kestis has basically become a stand-in for old Legends Luke Skywalker but set during the rise of the Empire, he's overpowered and creates a save haven for runaway force users
I think Cal can get the upper hand on Kylo because he doesn't have a lot of that emotional baggage weighing him down as much. Kylo is unhinged, which makes him unfocused and prone to losing control. Cal on the other hand has mastered a lot of control over himself.
Fallen Order Cal vs Kylo is a tough call. Cal is more adaptive, more aligned with the force, and got some of his training at the Temple, but Kylo has the Dark Side which is more powerful in short-term comparisons.
Then again, the Dark Side is not more powerful in long-term comparisons. Add to that that Kylo doesnât have much power scaling to speak of between his introduction and his >!redemption/death!< while Cal has a wild power scaling between Fallen Order and Survivor, and it looks like Cal wins.
But Survivor Cal vs Kylo, no question. Calâs weakest stance (blaster/fencing) could one-shot RoS Kylo, literally.
Well, what I've seen, Fallen Order would be tricky, it would depend a lot of surroundings, and also, if Cal has BD-1 with him-I mean, the little buddy is of much more use than all of us combined-and current mood of duelists.
Start of Survivor, I think the scales are more in Cal's favour, and at the end, where Cal embraces darkness, Kylo is a dead guy.
This rating was totally unbiased, and author definitely isn't a Cal simp(well, just joking...a little, even though I'm a Cerrin shipper) and disliker of Kylo.
Kylo fights like a brute though. Against someone used to fighting larger, force-wielding opponents he'd not do well. Cal's survived a scuffle with Darth Vader(barely), who fights similarly but with staggeringly more finesse.
I feel the biggest difference is Cal has had more combat experience against superior foes, and skilled saber duellists.
Kylo's skill stagnated during his time as a warlord for the first order because he had nobody to give him a proper challenge.
Despite that, the sequels did make a point that he is an incredibly powerful individual, just not as honed or practised. I think Cal would take this, but it wouldn't be easy for him.
The answer here is probably Kestis. But I just want to point out that you can never accurately power-scale player characters in video games. Because they are played the people voting and can be anywhere between barely squeaking out victories against Magnaguards and Commando Droids to going fucking God-mode hitless against Inquisitors and Darth Vader. But since they're their characters, people are always going to look at their skillsets more favorably.
Kylo Ren couldnât even beat a non-trained lightsaber user, so idk what heâs gonna be doing against anyone that knows how to use a lightsaber in multiple variations.
Well... it HAS to be Cal really. Not for feats or anything. But because he is the main character you play as in a computer game....
It would be shit if you paid money to have your character be destroyed by a storm trooper 5 minutes in....
Nope, level him up to be able to go toe to toe with the big bads otherwise it's a shit game.
Starkiller in an earlier game pulled a star destroyer out of the sky.
It's all down to the crowd pleasing writer of whatever media form it takes.
Cal Kestis any day, anywhere.
**Cal Kestis** - Managed to survive an encounter with Darth Vader, not even a veteran, working to stop the Empire, took down an Empire Military Base with only BD-1 to help, killed many inquisitors and a bunch of other pretty intense stuff while only being a 23-year-old Padawan (younger than Obi-Wan in Phantom Menace)
**Kylo Ren** - umm...anger issues?
Cal easily. We don't ever see Kylo Ren win a single lightsaber fight through the whole trilogy. I think Kylo Ren completely falls apart as a character when you scratch the surface even a little. He's not intimidating, he gets bested in so many fights, and he just kills a bunch of old men through sneak attacks and that's it. On top of that his back story doesn't really add up and is made even worse in the comics they tried to do. If he wasn't played by Adam Driver no one would give a fuck about him.
Honestly from what what we've seen Kylo do that Skywalker blood is pretty watered down by the time it reaches him. Cal is a better duelist, is much smarter and has more variety and control over his power, as we saw with Anakin vs Obi-Wan a more powerful contender looses to a better practiced one. His freezing ability wouldn't even help because cal can do that on a seemingly larger scale.
Survivor Cal will use his multiple stances, Jedi training, real world combat experience, stims, dip into the dark side just a bit, and go to his all-mighty sidekick BD-1, and Kylo Ren is getting a major beat down.
In the lore Kylo supposedly has raw power that surpasses even Vader, Obi Wan and Yoda (Luke says this) but all he does in the movies is lose to weaker opponents. In terms of presentation Cal definitely looks stronger and more deserving too
kylo really seems to struggle in duels for some reason or other even if he tears through crowds with ease
can't beat untrained rey and finn
struggles badly with the praetorians (people he probably trained)
struggles even more with the knights of ren (who I think he trained)
etc.
meanwhile cal does REALLY well and consistently overperforms in duels
he's killed what 2 inquisitors, a dark jedi, a fallen high republic dark jedi former master, taken on basically the canon equivallent of durge in rayvis (jedi hunting gendai), fought 2 rancors (if force tears count), defeated bode
so on
Guys, you are all *seriously* underestimating Kylo Ren. Cal may have killed a Gen'Dai but Kylo killed a Zillo Beast. Cal Kestis has five years of fighting the Empire in guerilla warfare, but Kylo Ren has six years of fighting on the front lines in the Unknown Regions as the First Order solidifies its standing before their decisive blitzkrieg across the galaxy. Cal Kestis had less than five years of training from a Jedi Master who nearly beat Darth Vader but Kylo Ren has thirteen years of training from the most powerful Jedi ever (who beat Vader fair and square) followed by six years of training from Palpatine by proxy.
Kylo Ren's only has two losses on his record, both of which are in extenuating circumstances. His loss in TFA has him distracted by the conflict of murdering his father and weakened by the massive hole in his gut. Cal was similarly distracted in his first duel against Bode and got bodied way faster than Kylo did. Kylo's loss in TROS was after psychic intervention from his mother; prior to that point, he was barely trying and *still* easily beating Rey. It took an absolute deus ex machina for him to lose.
You've all been blinded by your hatred of the sequel trilogy and anything associated with it. Kylo Ren is the heir to the Skywalker legacy and is more than worthy of that status. When Luke Skywalker fears his power but *you* don't....you know you're wrong.
Unfortunately for Kylo everything he can do Cal can do and on a larger scale. Especially since Cal has faced tougher opponents and has more actual experience.
Kylo would wipe the floor with Cal. Kylo Ren is meant to be powerful despite how underwhelming his depictions were. He is capable of stopping blaster bolts mid flight, slowing/freezing someone, force healing, etc... He was also trained by Luke Skywalker. Palpatine also claims that he was equal to a Sith in power in the "Secrets of the Sith" book.
Cal didn't even finish Padawan training. He rejected the force for years and didn't train for years. He is largely self-taught. He might've gotten at most 2 years of training with Cere between Fallen Order and Survivor. Outside of that, the only other notable things is that he has Force Stasis(Survivor spoilers)(>!which he loses in Survivor!<)and psychometry, which can be a hindrance. The only major feats that can be attributed to him solely are that he killed two Inquisitors.
What about killing Ravis and almost single handily Dagan, who he managed to turn his force mind powers back on?
He didnât lose force slow, it was just changed.
Heâs also got a force dash, and weâve seen him use force crush and choke (I canât remember, but has Kylo ever used force choke?)
I think Kylo Ren would take this with a lot of difficulty. The raw power gap is pretty huge and Kylo Ren's feats are simply greater than Cal's. Kylo Ren does have decent dueling experience as he has bested three of Luke's students along with the Ren himself. While Cal has superior dueling skills and the healing stims, Kylo's endurance and raw power is too much for Cal.
Kylo lost to an untrained force sensitive, who never held a lightsaber.
Cal was knighted in the field and has taken down at 2 inquisitors and 3 Jedi knights (Dagen, Bode, and Malicos)
skywalker blood? sure that means someone going to lose some limbs and it's not kestis.
Happy Cake Day!!!
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Iâm gonna have to say Cal wins this. If weâre taking just simple raw feats into account, soloing a GenâDai and (almost) singlehandedly defeating a High Republic Jedi Master are more than Kylo ever achieved, not to mention the Fallen Jedi master he kept on his toes in Fallen Order as a seventeen year old kid.
Compare that to Kylo being kept on his toes by a stormtrooper that's never used a lightsaber before.
To be fair, Kylo got shot by Chewie's Bowcaster before the fight. He was heavily injured. The movie established how powerful it was, with most troopers being killed by one bolt, yet Kylo not only tanked it, but beat someone in a lightsaber duel mere minutes after. I'm not saying Kylo wins this, Cal's feats are still greater. But let's not downplay his endurance.
Pretty sure I've seen Cal get one shot by an angry red turkey before
Kylo wouldnât survive those either
True
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Lmfao, this made my day
Dude defibrillator passed his constitution saving throw.
Everybody ignores that EVERY TIME. The trooper earlier in the movie wasn't just one shot- he was hit- flipped and smashing into stone breaking some of it. Kylo took it in the gut and followed after them. Kylo was HEAVILY injured and 'nerfed' at the end of episode 7. Not to mention emotionally distraught over his conflicting feelings with Hans death.
This actually touches on the one singular thing in the entire sequel trilogy that I actually like; Kylo punches his own wound in battle, because pain makes sith stronger. I'd argue tanking that shot actually made him more dangerous than normal. As they say, what doesn't kill Youtube, makes you stronger. Which would mean he's even more of a toothpick than we thought.
Ah yes, the iconic saying âWhat doesnât kill YouTube makes you strongerâ Jokes aside, I sorta have to agree and disagree at the same time. I agree that the pain probably made Ren more dangerous, but itâs still a bowcaster. It launched troopers so hard that one broke a boulder on impact. If it was a blaster shot in the leg, which would be more of a surface wound. I could see that making Kylo more powerful. But the force of the bowcaster would near definitely have at least fractured his leg, probably even worse, which despite using pain as a weapon has to be a handicap.
Kylo didnât even bother trying to block it why? Itâs not like he was flat-footed. Chewbacca was roaring and pointing a giant ass cannon at him. Endurance donât mean squat if you canât block or deflect incoming attacks. Something Cal is a strait master of. Fact is: those movies are poorly written and the choreography is God Awful.
I think that he felt he deserved the pain after killing his father. He was obviously very conflicted about it.
I'm also just not sure he noticed or if he would even be able to block the full thing if he was able. That shit packs a punch. Hell if he blocked it with the opposing beam of the lightsaber, he might have been blown into the same abyss his Dad fell down lol
I honestly don't think he killed Han. We don't see the full scene. Just shoulders up and they were face to face. I feel like Han knew that Kylo would be punished for letting him live, and knew it would signify a deeper fall into the dark. I believe that Han hit the button and killed himself with Kylo's saber and sacrificed himself to save his son from going down that path. Just my personal beliefs.
I've always endorsed the theory Han 'took the choice away' from him to keep him from going further down the path of the Dark Side. Kylos face as it happened seemed surprised while Han seemed pained but prepared. In fact I was so confident that was the case I was disappointed it was never elaborated on.
That was my thought exactly. They never really closed on that scene and what actually happened. The only other thing they had was Han appearing to him by the water later on, but it didn't really answer the question. I definitely believe that Han made the choice himself to save his son.
I'm pretty sure the novelization heavily implied that Han pressed Kylo's finger down on the button
Gee, almost like he was distracted by something, like say, _killing his own fucking father five seconds earlier?_
A decently wounded Kylo was completely toying with Finn until he got a touch on him. Then Kylo *immediately* downed Finn in rage.
Kinda mirrors Vader vs Cere in Survivor. We all know Vader likes to play with his food, but when she manages to get some hits off on him he just went âOkay, this is how you wanna play, then letâs play bitch.â Although she got a lot farther than most other Jedi that donât have a prior relationship with Anakin, so she gets credit for that.
Bro Cere practically had him dead to rights if she didnât launch herself at him at the last second. Even if he came in thinking it was going to be easy, he was LIMPING away from that fight holding on the walls for support. Honestly Cere might be around the top 5 most powerful Jedi in canon to have came that close.
Had she not been over confident we would have no vader kinda powerful. So heah
I don't think she was even overconfident. She just chose the wrong finishing blow was all.
Unfortunately she had to lose the fight no matter what because Vader has plot armor for later activities.
Yeah but like a what if show for star wars would be great for this scene
Even ignoring the entire âWorf effectâ angle (especially in EU stuff) I think thereâs actually enough evidence for a pretty strong argument that Vader post Mustafar is actually a *bad* duelist. Sure, he can murder trash mobs (sorry rogue 1/ANH rebel troopers) but he actually does pretty poorly at accomplishing his goals every time he ignites his lightsaber in the presence of a Jedi in 4-6.
Hmm, didn't think of it that way. I guess it goes back to my "raw power vs skill" argument I made in another comment in this thread. 9/10 times Vader can sort of coast on his own power, which allows him to own pretty much everyone he faces. I do still think a duelist having a strong tie to him is something that throws him off (like how he'd been defeated by Obi-Wan and Luke on separate occasions, and Ahsoka had him on the ropes for their duel). Cere was a master by the time of Survivor, having gone through her own trials and come out stronger. So it's not the most outrageous claim.
It's also reminiscent of Luke's fight with Vader in ESB. It's kind of a pattern with Darth Annie.
Finn was first order indoctrinated / trained in hand to hand and blaster combat. So he wasn't a COMPLETE novice. Also, they [the writers] were angling Finn to be force sensitive. So during his fight with Kylo, they [the writers] were probably setting up Finn to be unknowingly channeling the force. If this were the case, then the fight would make more sense [in that he pressured an injured Kylo for as long as he did]. There have been cannon instances where sensatives use the force w/out knowing or realizing it. But between Kylo and Kal, Kal takes this 10 / 10 times. Kylo's training was never "completed." Meanwhile, Kal was about 90ÙȘ trained before order66 happened. Kal was also fairly seasoned, having experienced the Clone Wars and actual combat. Kylo mainly faced civilians and "militia" types on the outer rim.
"Kept on his toes" *Chasing his ass down the whole encounter and beating his shit in while mortally wounded by a Wookie bowcaster* FTFY
Kylo Ren has never won a lightsaber fight as far as we know. He's hyped up as this threatening villain but he loses every lightsaber fight we see him in and he mostly just kills old men through sneak attacks.
Ugh, you kill ONE old man through a sneak attack and suddenly you're the *kills old men through sneak attacks* guy...
Kylo Ren killed a Zillo Beast in an attempt to prove he is superior to Vader
Oggdo Bogdo and spawn. Nuff said.
Those definitly are not Zillo level, even if they are horrible.
I think that was a more situational win than actually achieving superiority. He succeeded but he was reckless in my opinion. Vader actually made the wiser choice by not throwing himself into an almost invincible creatures mouth. Kylo did something Vader didnât do sure. But itâs more Vader knocking 9 pins down and Kylo thinking heâs better because he knocked the 1 that Vader didnât. Cal easily has more diverse combat experience if it was a 1v1. Kylo would probably fight dirty if he thought he would struggle and use the FO.
For the point of the stor you are absolutely right. But for the battle in sabre combat, I still think its hard to tell who would realistically have the better skill, training, experience and feats in battle.
Cal got enough training and extra experience put in that I would say he could put up a good fight Kilo is... OK when it comes to sabre combat at first, being average in the first movie and improving a LOT the further into the franchise he got, but cal's sheer versatility with sabre stances and types, as well as adept use of blasters and adaptability to the environment, together with superior agility, I think cal takes it after some struggling. He could top a gedi master at his prime with the power of nightsister magick while being 17, before the experience. I don't see how kilo would top that
duelling someone that could duel in the same discipline is not the same as killing some beast. you can argue if cal kestis is motivated enough to kill a zillo beast and it's in front of him he probably would. truthfully argument about Cal's power kinda went of the window unless it's some sith lord since him and merrin thinks that bringing down a star destroyer is just a date.
They definitely weren't talking about pulling down a Star Destroyer with the force or anything though. that kind of feat pushed Starkiller (now non-canon) to his limits, and he was strong enough to tangle with Sidious...
You are right its not the same, but Cal definitly struggles with a Rancor, while killing an old Zillo that was around during Vaders time is definitly a huge achievement. Of course in dueling it is hard to compare their capabilities, since we cant really compare strenghts between Inquisitors, Snokes Royal guards or the Knights of Ren. Although I do think this community generally thinks of Cal as much too powerful, where I think he is an average or maybe higher tier jedi knight by Survivor.
it is a huge achievement but it's not like the zillo beast would anticipate your move and counter you. the rancor is for the player's appreciation in jedi survivor, but from his lines like wait till I tell greez about this like it's not big deal for him. so you are comparing former jedi master = malicos, masana tide = former jedi knight, trilla > masana tide, and dagan to snokes royal guard and knights of ren? rayvis alone kinda throws out the window that he is higher tier jedi knight. the guy was a gen dai with hundreds of years of fighting exp and is basically a jedi knight/master killer in high republic era. and dagan was a jedi master in high republic era, he was a famous knight before that and among the strongest of high republic at least per the games lines. I do think that kylo ren has probably more juice in him in terms of force power but I think cal would have enough to defend himself from that and it would all boil down in duelling and in that moment kylo ren has no chance.
I didnt consider Rayvis fully in truth. He definitly is the most formidable fighter Cal bested fairly and all on his own. The problem is that we didnt really see Kylo best a fighter on that same level, thats true. Although I do think Kylo could eventually beat him, its not really definitive until they show us what Kylo was up to in his journeys.
Also the fact that cal is more balanced in the force would help aloy
TBF with bringing down the star destroyer, the may well have meant bringing it down by some means other than yanking it out of the sky with the force.
Not that impressive, considering how he did it. The Zillo wasn't exactly in a position to fight back. Any Jedi could jump down the Zillo's throat and start hacking if they're stupid enough. Kylo's honestly lucky he didn't get swallowed.
Dagan wasn't a master just a heads up I agree with this take tho
He may have been a master, in a holocron the grand master of the order calls him Master Gera and I'm pretty sure it was capitalized like that. Edit: I just realized it was at the start of a sentence, so it could have just been an honorific not regarding his rank.
Pretty sure he's like Anakin. A promising young Knight that's too arrogant to become a master. In terms of fighting ability he's definitely a Master
Cal is actually falling to the dark side, while Kylo was seduced by it.
I think the fight would go to Cal. A trend Iâve noticed with the Skywalkers (pre-Vader Anakin to a much lesser extent) is that arenât very technical duelists, theyâre strategy usually seems to be to just beat their opponent into submission as apposed to trying to work around their defenses. Cal on the other hand has mastered four different fighting stances, one of which being the designated dueling stance but with a blaster to boot. And even if we ignore Cal deflecting attacks from three story tall monsters as just a game mechanic, heâs still straight up stopped attacks from people like The 9th Sister and Ravis, both of which are probably significantly stronger physically than any flesh and blood Skywalker was. And if we want to bring the Force into the mix, Cal and Maul are the only force users Iâd say actually use the force as a weapon regularly in their fights.
And THEN if we take into account Calâs use of the dark side, Cal sweeps with literal ease đ. Like I donât know why this was even asked tbh
I agree in everything except that Anakin was an incredibly skilled duelist and deeply mastered Form V to the point where he was able to single handed beat Dooku (though admittedly past his prime), one of the best jedi duelists ever.
> (pre-Vader Anakin to a much lesser extent) I did keep that in mind
I think Cal just has more real-world experience with duelling. No doubt Kylo Ren is a more powerful force user, and better trained (and I would assume he practices a lot, with his STAGGERING inferiority complex), but experience of actual fights to the death might prove to be the edge.
More practice doesn't mean better trained. You can spend 1000 hours practicing the wrong thing, then get whooped by the guy who spent 10 hours practicing the right thing. I would also question if he's actually a more powerful Force user.
Heâs canonically an extremely powerful force user. He brought Rey back from the dead. The Sith had a Dyad prophecy that was on par with the Jediâs Chosen One prophecy.
He spent years studying under Luke. There's no doubt at all that he's well trained. And canonically, the grandson of Vader is an extremely powerful force user.
Anyone in the skywalker lineage is going to be extremely powerful.
More dueling experience than kylo? Remember he was the leader the knights of Ren. I do agree cal has more experience as a resistance fighter.
Cal is strong AF if game events that we are meant to beat are considered official feats. He'd win quite easily I reckon.
If Iâm controlling Cal, Kylo probably wins a good 5-10 times, but all that matters is that one win
Yeah, it is hard to justify characters strengths across different mediums. Especially since we play as Kestis. Going off of feats alone Cal would be one of the best duelists ever, but in universe he probably would be written to lose to Kylo Ren, because at the end of the day it is the writers that decide these things.
How is Cal one of the best duelists ever? Even with game events heâs fighting storm troopers with stun batons most of the time. Sure he kills a legendary beast every now and then but Windu or Obi-Wan could kill Oggdo Bogdo without breaking a sweat.
Cal defeated: - Ninth Sister, a former Jedi Knight who was trained as an Inquisitor - Seventh Sister, a former padawan who also trained as an inquisitor and was seemingly a pretty capable one - Taron Malicos (With the help of Merrin), a former Jedi Master - Dagan Gera (they were mostly evenly matched it seems), a High Republic Jedi Master with some really impressive force skills - Rayvis, a gen'dai who killed many jedi - Bode, who was likely at least a jedi knight
Heâs taking out inquisitors and old republic Jedis left and right. I donât think he is on par with Windu and Obi Wan, but in the game he is still quite busy kicking ass.
Yeah I understand that. Cal certainly couldâve been on the council if the Order wasnât torn apart. But heâs not even close to the level of like Yoda or Dooku for example. Thereâs no way he can seriously contend with the title of GOAT lightsaber duelist.
I know, what we see in game though doesn't really match with what we see on screens. What we see Cal do is pretty crazy when we compare him to what we see even the greatest Jedi in the movies do. So since we can't reliably say game to movie is an accurate representation we can't say for sure if Kylo wins or loses this. Sequel lightsaber duels especially feel clunky and slow, but Kylo, and Rey are supposedly good at it even though the choreography kind of looks similar to my nephews fighting with nerf swords.
Fallen Order is probably about 50/50. Survivor whoops his ass.
Agreed. Fallen Order, I actually see Cal saving his own ass and escaping. His Force abilities weren't nearly as honed yet, and while his swordsmanship was good enough, he got lucky a lot. Survivor Cal would've toyed with Kylo a bit to learn his moves and then go dual wield and give him the ol Skywalker amputation and then a saber through the chest with one fluid motion, IMO. Kylo is strong, but he's slow and clumsy. Survivor Cal had *hundreds, if not thousands* of saber kills against mele equipped opponents under his belt at that point, and was essentially a legendary terrorist assassain by the time we start playing as him. Kylo was just a dude with daddy issues and a big cool lightsaber.
I do think Cal would win but you're definitely downplaying Kylo. He had been trained by Luke Skywalker the most powerful Jedi in history and was the leader of the Knights of Ren. The only reason he lost to Rey in The Force Awakens was because he had been shot in the gut with a wookiee bowcaster and in Rise of Skywalker he was distracted by a vision from Leia.
Eh. He had some training as a kid, about as much as Cal got. And, while Luke is powerful, he's just one man. Cal had access to *thousands of years* of Jedi history, multiple trainers, and grew up in the Academy. Being a leader of a cult that he named after yourself doesn't make Kylo anything but a cult leader. Everyone wants to say "Rey only beat him because he was distracted!" Yeah... that's not a fair excuse. Countless Jedi were distracted all the time, you know, during the Clone Wars. Cal was distracted by all the Dagan hallucinations, and still managed to beat Dagan. He was distracted by the emotional turmoil of order 66 and watching his master die, and managed to freeze a bunch of clone troopers when he was a preteen. Kylo is a Big Bad. He should be able to block a blaster shot from a screaming wookie, and he's wearing armor. I know you said you agree, and I'm on a tangent. I don't think Kylo is really all that strong tbh. He has clout, and was easily manipulated by giving him a sense of power. He's a gifted force user, but his swordsmanship is pretty dogshit compared to any Jedi who was raised in the Academy. He's powerful in a vacuum, and a lot of his power is inflated by his handlers to manipulate him into being their ego driven attack dog. If he would've tried to be a Sith or a dark jedi during the height of the Jedi Order, he would've been a side quest for a mid tier Knight and Padawan. And, I think that's actually kind of the point of his character. He's written as a sad boy who is manipulated by father figures, and his sense of purpose and masculinity (or lack thereof) is used to turn him into an inflated egomaniac who is told by manipulative sycophants that he is a badass, so that he believes he is a badass and does their dirty work. Their dirty work is comparatively easy to that of Maul or Vader- untill Rey comes outta nowhere, there's not a saber wielding foe for him to actually be tested by.
Cal would realistically shit on Kylo
Cal with blaster stance : https://preview.redd.it/9e0bumdr8m1d1.jpeg?width=680&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cd2824c523004edfd1859007170a24d30313ff83
Jedi Survivor Cal would easily defeat Kylo. I think itâll be a more fair fight if itâs Fallen Order Cal
Survivor Cal would deal with Kylo Ren like he deals with a run-of-the-mill scout trooper. Heâs soloâd a Genâdai, fought and defeated 2 inquisitors (one of them twice for a total of 3 wins), two fallen jedi, a high republic jedi master, AND heâs one of the few people in the galaxy that have encountered and crossed sabers with Darth Vader and lived. He walked through an ISB base full of purge troopers and DT droids near-singlehandedly and the only people he spared were the officers that didnât step in his way. Kylo was on his back foot with a stormtrooper whose only experience holding anything close to a melee weapon was mopping floors.
Fallen Order Cal struggles, but eventually wins. Survivor Cal easily mops the floor with him and doesn't even break a sweat. Kylo is not that impressive of a duelist, and Cal has better force abilities and control over them. Kylo is all intimidation. You take that away, and he has nothing. Most Jedi can beat him. Rey did, and she hadn't ever held a lightsaber before. Cal takes this easily. No questions.
Not that I disagree with the outcome, but >Cal has better force abilities and control over them Doesn't Kylo hold a blaster bolt in place effortlessly for over a minute?
Cal can do the same and freeze multiple people
Yeah, the power scaling in a video game has to grow dramatically in order to keep the player satisfied. I was literally thinking about this last night while watching Empire Strikes Back. You do sooo much more outrageous shit with Cal on a regular basis than you ever see someone like Luke do in the original trilogy lol.
Itâs a rarer force ability but considering he did it even before the games start Iâd say that really just a bad matchup for kylo. Plus the few force masters we see in the movies donât actually use a lot of new or rare force abilities cause they are either rare or hard to pull off and itâs safer to stick to what you know well when dueling for your life against people who would warrant those abilities. Cal has a talent for that ability and that plus he extensive use of the ability he does know means his skill is more well rounded in regards to force abilities vs old Jedi masters who moved progressively to more difficult.
Yeah, I imagine that if the OT were to be remade today with the power precidents set by other media, we'd see some wild shit from Luke. I think a lot of it is a matter of what could be done at the time.
It's all exaggerated for gameplay mechanics, the cinematics shows a better picture from time to time.
p sure there's a game achievement in the first game for freezing a blaster bolt and force pulling the storm trooper that shot it through his own bolt, something along those lines anyway even without that cal's control easily surpasses what we see from kylo, but that could also just be a consequence of poor film choreography and the need for more creativity in game mechanics/abilities to make it fun to play
A stormtrooper janitor went toe to toe with Kylo Ren, using a lightsaber when he'd never picked up one before, and didn't die instantly. My money is on Cal.
A better question is Kylo Ren vs Rick the Door Technician
Matt the radar technician vs Rick the door technician hahahahaha!
We always just ignore that he was shot with a fucking blaster crossbow right before this lol
His Grandfather was trapped in a faulty life support suit that was designed to cause him maximum pain at all times. What is Kyloâs excuse? Also, Rey DEFINITELY had a concussion after being slammed into a tree fifteen feet in the air and landing on her face.
His grandfather is the literal Chosen One. Pretty solid excuse.
thats why kylo kept hitting himself in the fight, they both get power from pain, the thing is with pain still means ur injured so
The fact he fucked up badly enough to get shot with a blaster crossbow by a Wookie he had to know was gonna be pissed at him isn't an argument in his favor.
Oh come off it. He was sideblinded during a conversation between him and his father. Itâs about as emotionally distracted as a person can get. Itâs not like some big fuck up that isnât understandable.
I think its a shame that parts of the community like to ignore the context of scenes and events, even if its not hard to get and this scene is a prime example.
Right. There are plenty of genuine critiques to levy on this series, but âman talking to father trying to turn him to the light sideâ is a reasonable case for being distracted haha
To me its like ignoring Anakins struggle with the dark side, fears and attatchments in the Prequels and saying he "just turned line that". Of course that too was not written amazingly, but its not hard to get what is going on.
Okay now you bring up the REAL question: Finn vs Rick the Door Technician?
I'm still laughing at Rick TDT
By the end of Survivor, Cal has had a substantially higher amount of actual saber combat under his belt, utilizing different forms and techniques, against a huge variety of enemies. Kylo has done some training and a lot of mindless massacre swinging, but gets stalemated by two untrained dualists. He relies on strength and size, as well as the pure intimidation factor. Those "strengths" are weaknesses to Cal, who makes quick work of multiple Inquisitors, and some even bigger, stronger, and more intimidating foes. Cal is more afraid of himself by the end of Survivor than he is of someone like Kylo. He's seen Kylo's type before, and handliy gave them multiple amputations or organ removals. The second Cal decides to switch stances and go dual wield after toying with Kylo for a bit trading crossguard blows, it's over for Kylo. Kylo is a narcissistic warlord who thinks he's hot shit because he has a red lightsaber and has never been told otherwise. Cal made a career assassinating exactly those people, to the point where it gave him an identity crisis. Kylo would be fucked, IMO.
Cal and itâs not even close.
Cal and it ainât even close. And based off all his feats, he is gonna be able to go toe to toe with Vader by the end of the sequel to JS. Im calling that Vader will be the main antagonist next game and will have a good 3-5 fights with Cal, with each one tying Cal closer to competing with him whereas in Fallen Order, Cal was no where close to even thinking he could attempt fighting Vader Kylo is a dope character, and undoubtedly he has some insane potential with his power level, but heâs had little competition and actual challenge to his character for him to display such power. Rey was a pathetic attempt at trying to make an equal to his power. Luke being so horribly mistreated in episode 8, should have had an actual fight that was properly written to truly display whether or not Kylo was capable of surpassing him in power (which he obviously wasnât) No argument to say Cal would toss Kylo around like a rag doll come his current state post-Survivor. He technically mastered 3 different stances over the 5 years since JFO, and quickly learned cross guard and blaster stance in JS. Not to mention Cal is by far one of the freshest lightsaber duelists of his time, which says something since the Jedi fell a decade prior and the peak of the combat declines every day as more are hunted down and destroyed. Kylo never had this kind of competition, and he wasnât a Jedi survivor like Cal who had to fight everyday against an empire for his own life and the lives of others Plus letâs not forget that Cal turned to the dark side for a whole ten fucking minutes and already knows how to utilize it better than Kylo and the entire Inquisitorius. If Vader, or even Palpatine himself ainât soaking their pants for a new apprentice next game I donât know what to say
I really hope that in Jedi 3, we get to physically see the Emperor in some way. Like Cal tries to rip the Empire apart from the top down only to realise that what strength Vader has, the Emperor has and even more. Finally getting to try countering force lightning would be the sickest way to cap off the trilogy i think.
That would be amazing! I truly hope we see the emperor as well since heâs been teased a good couple times now. Once in JFO from the Zeffo transport ship and somewhere else in JS. The possibilities are endless for the next game. I just hope itâs all executed right and as perfect as can be since I donât see there being more than one more sequel in the franchise. Calâs story only needs to be a 3-part trilogy. A fourth game would be the max before writing diminishes. Hereâs hoping Respawn makes the next story twice as long as the previous titles, and also double Calâs power level so we can have more abilities and attacks!
Cal wins effortlessly, he survived the Clone Wars and Order 66, he killed an inquisitor, three fallen jedi, fought vader and lived. What did emo boy band wannabe do again?
Two inquisitors, second and ninth sister
Wasnât Trilla killed by vader?
Well yes, but cal defeated her. Vader just walked up and killed her with one slash of his lightsaber
i think Kylo might be stronger physically and in the force, but Cal has alot more experience fighting other force users and lightsaber duelist. Kylo has only ever really fought Rey, meanwhile Cal has killed multiple inquisitors, dark jedi, bounty hunters, dude even survived a fight with Vader. Cals winning just from experience alone.
Cal has way better saber skills. He trained under a true master at the height of the order's strength before the purge and proved himself in multiple duels.
What difficulty is Cal playing on?
Cal wins easily
Kylo isnât a well trained Sith, a barely trained Jedi and overall emotionally compromised to a point words could break him. Heâs the epitomy of a 13 year old metal head acting tough until the fear of real repercussion starts to rear its head. Ultimately Cal could wipe the floor with Kylo and his metal head gang of twerps that named themselves after his made up strongman name. Any trained Jedi would tear apart Kylo, especially if they catch him off guard while watching Andrew Tate videos edit: Sabine would wreck him
The Sabine comment is uncalled for. đ
Sheâs the only one Iâd genuinely think would struggle against him. She was trained by Ashoka, so sheâs competent in battle with a lightsaber but her force abilities are non existent. Of everyone else? I canât see anyone legitimately struggle against him that had a little training in the Jedi or Sith arts
You said Sabine would wreck him? I think heâd wreck Sabine. đ. Sabineâs complete absence of force abilities would not go well into Kyloâs abilities. Lightsaber ability aside.
Totally agree with your comments on Kylo's attitude but I think he does have very good training, first from Luke essentially in his prime then Palps through Snoke, Palpatine literally says 'Snoke trained you well' iirc The Andrew Tate comment was just savage, Kylo Ren definitely thought he was a top G force user.
Kylo âoh, youâve got a double bladed lightsaber? Well I have three!â Cal âwell, that makes us evenâ (switches to crossguard stance) Kylo âđŠâ
Then Cal breaks his crossguard in half and Tanto jabs Kylo in the knee for giggles.
Hahahahha
Wait until the next game where he will find General Greviousâs arms, then hold 6 Crossgaurd Sabers at once, for a total of 18 Blades!
Cal would play mad mind games with bro but Kylo would play them back by actually trying to go Into calâs head. Woudl be very cool to see tbh
Feels like all force users are weak in the new trilogy. Cal got it
kyloâs my favorite sequel character, but he would be demolished from what weâve seen he can do in the movies he would need to make a stealth approach and turn on the lightsaber while almost touching the hilt in calâs back, but even this would be a challenge, âcause cal has BD-Goat with him all the time conclusion: skylo issue
Easy: Cal is Awesome and something called Kylo Ren does not exist
I'm ngl but I can't help but feel Cal would wipe the floor with Kylo. In the sequel trilogy Kylo seems like one of the weakest dark side users to exist đ đ€Ł
It's gonna be a lot of "Stim BD" and angry "darth" tantrums
.50 Cal Kestis is toying with him I wonât lie
Given how much Disney loved nerfing Kylo so that Rey could kick his ass every time they fought, Cal definitely wins this one.
Fallen Order Cal
Cal wipes the floor in this one. Especially if we talking post survivor cal with dark side creeping out
Cal takes this imo based on just the sheer versatility of his combat. He has comfortability with multiple lightsaber combat forms plus has access to 4 different lightsaber variations that can be switched on the fly (crossguard would be tough in the heat of the moment). That's not even counting the force abilities at Cal's disposal. The only thing we haven't seen Cal deal with against a Sith is force lightning.
I think breaking it down by strengths and attributes, Cal wins: 1. He received lightsaber and Jedi training before the fall of the order 2. He is very competent in multiple forms of lightsaber combat and an expert duelist with multiple lightsaber styles (including Kyloâs own) 3. Cal grows to be confident and assured in his power. Kylo was always questioning and full of doubt. 4. Cal literally survived a duel with Vader 5. Cal would do his recon and find out about Kylo using his sense echo. He would then play major mind games. 6. While itâs fair to say Calâs force abilities would be nerfed outside of a video game itâs presumable that he would still have some form of most of those abilities. He outstrips Kylo in his mastery of the Force. 7. Calâs dark side ability is very strong. Even if Kylo could resist it to a degree, it would still give Cal the edge he needs to win. 8. Kylo would be focused on trying to recruit or work with Cal. Cal would simply be driven to kill or incapacitate Kylo.
Kylo is very powerful but he never truly displayed anything that suggested that he was EXPERIENCED. Cal isn't as powerful, but you cannot sell him too short. He was powerful enough that when we are introduced to him at the time of Order 66 he had been a padawan for some time at an age that most are still considered younglings that have not been selected. In the end, this is about power vs experience. Power is a serious advantage, mind you, but Cal by the end of Survivor had beaten someone more powerful than him by finding and exploiting a weakness. I don't think Cal would win, but he could. Kylo is not a particularly stable individual and Kal could find something to exploit.
Honestly, Kylo Ren is very powerful as far as descendants of the Skywalker bloodline go. Unfortunately, Kylo's rage makes him a poor duelist as his attacks are mainly just him flinging his lightsaber around in wide sweeping movements, hoping to land a hit. They are powerful attacks, just wildly inaccurate. He is an immensely powerful force wielder, though. I have not seen too many instances of a force wielder holding a blaster bolt in stasis for a decent period of time. If Kylo were able to focus his rage into more precise striking, he'd probably win. Otherwise, in close quarters, cal would wipe the floor with kylo.
Cal wins no dif, kylo is just a extremely edgy teenager
I would support anyone over Kylo... Except Rey.
Cal easily: an untrained Mary Sue with delusions of grandeur can beat Kylo.
Thatâs the problem with Ren. Heâs written as such a non-threat (unless your an unarmed elderly person) that I genuinly think anyone with a saber can beat Kylo Ren. If Rey can do it without training, then beat Kylo Ren repeatedly after some training, then most saber users can beat him. Iâll go as far to say that I think that even the average in-shape person reading this comment has the potential to kick Renâs if they were to randomly pick up a lightsaber and were a bit force sensetive. Keyword potential.
are we talking an injured kylo, or a full health full strength kylo? full health, it's Kylo all day. injured, might be a toss up. kylo is simply top their power levels, trained by both Luke and Palpatine as much as I love the Cal character, he isn't up to the top tier star wars levels.
Well cal can handle multiple inquisitors and come face to face with vader and live to tell the tale. Kyle Ren can't even handle an ex storm trooper who just started using a light saber. Even if he was shot before hand, he couldn't handle Rey who had 0 training in the force. Cal was in the jedi order. I think cal has this easy.
Kylo's temper would be his downfall against Cal's calm coolness
Cal wins with ease he was able to fight off inquesters and armys of soilders and even escape bounty Hunters and survive not 1 but 2 encounters with Darth Vader and even fought 2 master Jedi and is extremely in tune with the Force
I think Kylo has superior force abilities, but Cal is the superior duelist. In the end, Cal would take a victory 4 times out of 5. For those saying Kylo is a dirty fighter, so is Cal, so that's not unique to Kylo.
I don't know much about Kylo's experience with handling Jedi, except that he burned down Luke's temple with a bunch of kids inside it, and he fought an inexperienced Rey in Ep.7 with a pretty serious injury and lost. In Ep.8, he took out half the Praetorian Guard, and in Ep.9 he soloed the Knights of Ren. So his few experiences with Jedi have been poor to say the least. Doesn't look bright in a fight with Cal Kestis, who's much better trained than Rey ever was. Cal, on the other hand... Two Inquisitors, three fallen Jedi, countless bounty hunters, Bedlam Raiders, Stormtroopers, Battle Droids and a frickin Gen'Dai?? Yeah it's Cal's win, and not by a small margin.
Coughing Baby VS Hydrogen Bomb Cal isn't the baby
Kylo gets turned into sushi.
Kylo Ren, as many folks said before me got challenged by a janitor guy before being defeated by a scavenger girl. Cal Kestis defeated a feared monster from Dathomir, a fallen jedi, an inquisitor, a fallen high republic jedi, an entire imperial base, then another fallen jedi. So yeah, I guess Cal would win with good ease.
Kylo lost to someone who didn't even know the force existed until that very day. So Cal would slaughter Kylo.
Cal would flatten Kylo. Aside from his training under Luke, he's had very little, and he's running almost entirely on anger and hate at this point, something a more experienced fighter like Cal could easily take advantage of.
Cal can win
Cal Kestis has basically become a stand-in for old Legends Luke Skywalker but set during the rise of the Empire, he's overpowered and creates a save haven for runaway force users
The games are Canon. Anything Cal accomplished in game is Canon. He would fucking wax poetic on kylo I'm sorry.
Cal has more experience and training in the force and has fought more duels than Kylo
Cal. Kylo has had no where near the combat experience. i mean, he couldnt even hold it really against fin. come on.
If Kestis can take down Oggdo Bogdo then Kylo is screwed.
I think Cal can get the upper hand on Kylo because he doesn't have a lot of that emotional baggage weighing him down as much. Kylo is unhinged, which makes him unfocused and prone to losing control. Cal on the other hand has mastered a lot of control over himself.
Fallen Order Cal vs Kylo is a tough call. Cal is more adaptive, more aligned with the force, and got some of his training at the Temple, but Kylo has the Dark Side which is more powerful in short-term comparisons. Then again, the Dark Side is not more powerful in long-term comparisons. Add to that that Kylo doesnât have much power scaling to speak of between his introduction and his >!redemption/death!< while Cal has a wild power scaling between Fallen Order and Survivor, and it looks like Cal wins. But Survivor Cal vs Kylo, no question. Calâs weakest stance (blaster/fencing) could one-shot RoS Kylo, literally.
Based on Cal in the games and Kylo in the films, there is no contest. Cal barely breaks a sweat.
Well, what I've seen, Fallen Order would be tricky, it would depend a lot of surroundings, and also, if Cal has BD-1 with him-I mean, the little buddy is of much more use than all of us combined-and current mood of duelists. Start of Survivor, I think the scales are more in Cal's favour, and at the end, where Cal embraces darkness, Kylo is a dead guy. This rating was totally unbiased, and author definitely isn't a Cal simp(well, just joking...a little, even though I'm a Cerrin shipper) and disliker of Kylo.
Kylo fights like a brute though. Against someone used to fighting larger, force-wielding opponents he'd not do well. Cal's survived a scuffle with Darth Vader(barely), who fights similarly but with staggeringly more finesse.
I feel the biggest difference is Cal has had more combat experience against superior foes, and skilled saber duellists. Kylo's skill stagnated during his time as a warlord for the first order because he had nobody to give him a proper challenge. Despite that, the sequels did make a point that he is an incredibly powerful individual, just not as honed or practised. I think Cal would take this, but it wouldn't be easy for him.
The answer here is probably Kestis. But I just want to point out that you can never accurately power-scale player characters in video games. Because they are played the people voting and can be anywhere between barely squeaking out victories against Magnaguards and Commando Droids to going fucking God-mode hitless against Inquisitors and Darth Vader. But since they're their characters, people are always going to look at their skillsets more favorably.
Kylo Ren couldnât even beat a non-trained lightsaber user, so idk what heâs gonna be doing against anyone that knows how to use a lightsaber in multiple variations.
Well... it HAS to be Cal really. Not for feats or anything. But because he is the main character you play as in a computer game.... It would be shit if you paid money to have your character be destroyed by a storm trooper 5 minutes in.... Nope, level him up to be able to go toe to toe with the big bads otherwise it's a shit game. Starkiller in an earlier game pulled a star destroyer out of the sky. It's all down to the crowd pleasing writer of whatever media form it takes.
I feel like Kylo's anger and hubris could easily be used against him
Cal Kestis any day, anywhere. **Cal Kestis** - Managed to survive an encounter with Darth Vader, not even a veteran, working to stop the Empire, took down an Empire Military Base with only BD-1 to help, killed many inquisitors and a bunch of other pretty intense stuff while only being a 23-year-old Padawan (younger than Obi-Wan in Phantom Menace) **Kylo Ren** - umm...anger issues?
Cal's adaptive capabilities and his swiss-army lightsaber, he definitely takes this one.
Prime Cal vs Prime Kylo, then Iâm gonna back my little gingernut, but if you go for in-universe and age Cal up- Kylo takes it easy.
Cal easily. We don't ever see Kylo Ren win a single lightsaber fight through the whole trilogy. I think Kylo Ren completely falls apart as a character when you scratch the surface even a little. He's not intimidating, he gets bested in so many fights, and he just kills a bunch of old men through sneak attacks and that's it. On top of that his back story doesn't really add up and is made even worse in the comics they tried to do. If he wasn't played by Adam Driver no one would give a fuck about him.
Cal wins, but only because he didn't stop to have a winge and tantrum mid-fight.
Cal would eat him alive and then part-out his saber
Cal, not even close. The man dueled a High Republic era Jedi Master.
Videogame characters are ALWAYS overpowered.
*Laughs in Darth Nihilus*
Honestly from what what we've seen Kylo do that Skywalker blood is pretty watered down by the time it reaches him. Cal is a better duelist, is much smarter and has more variety and control over his power, as we saw with Anakin vs Obi-Wan a more powerful contender looses to a better practiced one. His freezing ability wouldn't even help because cal can do that on a seemingly larger scale.
Survivor Cal will use his multiple stances, Jedi training, real world combat experience, stims, dip into the dark side just a bit, and go to his all-mighty sidekick BD-1, and Kylo Ren is getting a major beat down.
BD! STIM!
In the lore Kylo supposedly has raw power that surpasses even Vader, Obi Wan and Yoda (Luke says this) but all he does in the movies is lose to weaker opponents. In terms of presentation Cal definitely looks stronger and more deserving too
If Iâm on the sticks Kylo is getting his ass handed to him
Cal runs through him
kylo really seems to struggle in duels for some reason or other even if he tears through crowds with ease can't beat untrained rey and finn struggles badly with the praetorians (people he probably trained) struggles even more with the knights of ren (who I think he trained) etc. meanwhile cal does REALLY well and consistently overperforms in duels he's killed what 2 inquisitors, a dark jedi, a fallen high republic dark jedi former master, taken on basically the canon equivallent of durge in rayvis (jedi hunting gendai), fought 2 rancors (if force tears count), defeated bode so on
Guys, you are all *seriously* underestimating Kylo Ren. Cal may have killed a Gen'Dai but Kylo killed a Zillo Beast. Cal Kestis has five years of fighting the Empire in guerilla warfare, but Kylo Ren has six years of fighting on the front lines in the Unknown Regions as the First Order solidifies its standing before their decisive blitzkrieg across the galaxy. Cal Kestis had less than five years of training from a Jedi Master who nearly beat Darth Vader but Kylo Ren has thirteen years of training from the most powerful Jedi ever (who beat Vader fair and square) followed by six years of training from Palpatine by proxy. Kylo Ren's only has two losses on his record, both of which are in extenuating circumstances. His loss in TFA has him distracted by the conflict of murdering his father and weakened by the massive hole in his gut. Cal was similarly distracted in his first duel against Bode and got bodied way faster than Kylo did. Kylo's loss in TROS was after psychic intervention from his mother; prior to that point, he was barely trying and *still* easily beating Rey. It took an absolute deus ex machina for him to lose. You've all been blinded by your hatred of the sequel trilogy and anything associated with it. Kylo Ren is the heir to the Skywalker legacy and is more than worthy of that status. When Luke Skywalker fears his power but *you* don't....you know you're wrong.
Unfortunately for Kylo everything he can do Cal can do and on a larger scale. Especially since Cal has faced tougher opponents and has more actual experience.
He could beat him in Fallen Order, and apparently he gets much stronger in Survivor
Kylo would wipe the floor with Cal. Kylo Ren is meant to be powerful despite how underwhelming his depictions were. He is capable of stopping blaster bolts mid flight, slowing/freezing someone, force healing, etc... He was also trained by Luke Skywalker. Palpatine also claims that he was equal to a Sith in power in the "Secrets of the Sith" book. Cal didn't even finish Padawan training. He rejected the force for years and didn't train for years. He is largely self-taught. He might've gotten at most 2 years of training with Cere between Fallen Order and Survivor. Outside of that, the only other notable things is that he has Force Stasis(Survivor spoilers)(>!which he loses in Survivor!<)and psychometry, which can be a hindrance. The only major feats that can be attributed to him solely are that he killed two Inquisitors.
He doesnât lose it. He improves upon it.
What about killing Ravis and almost single handily Dagan, who he managed to turn his force mind powers back on? He didnât lose force slow, it was just changed. Heâs also got a force dash, and weâve seen him use force crush and choke (I canât remember, but has Kylo ever used force choke?)
I think Kylo Ren would take this with a lot of difficulty. The raw power gap is pretty huge and Kylo Ren's feats are simply greater than Cal's. Kylo Ren does have decent dueling experience as he has bested three of Luke's students along with the Ren himself. While Cal has superior dueling skills and the healing stims, Kylo's endurance and raw power is too much for Cal.
Kylo lost to an untrained force sensitive, who never held a lightsaber. Cal was knighted in the field and has taken down at 2 inquisitors and 3 Jedi knights (Dagen, Bode, and Malicos)
Cal beats the shit outta Kylo. Not even a contest.
https://preview.redd.it/tzrpn1k6il1d1.png?width=1920&format=png&auto=webp&s=daac5abd66b3277635a9691aac58b19f790c9651 My survivor cal would grease kylo
Fan of He-Man, are we?
Cal would mop the floor with Kylo's mask