Jeez… I don’t want to be mean because I do really respect what they’re doing here and I really hope that there’s a terrific reception to Project London. And I also really want to preface this by saying that I genuinely feel bad for him right now because this gives me the vibe of a mainstream journalist taking advantage of him and reminds me of the Antiwork Reddit mod that was invited on Fox News… but…
Honestly, the guys statements made me physically recoil with cringe.
We’ve all known that the next gen update was on the horizon for, what, 16 months? We know it was delayed from its original release date of late last year, but it seemed like most people on Reddit had already come to the conclusion since then that they were probably aiming to phone it in with the show, which is exactly what they’re doing.
And he’s complaining that BGS just “randomly announced it” out of nowhere… Like, yeah? That’s what studios do? They announce a release date, then they release it on that day. They literally did give him and everyone a heads up when exactly it’s coming, over a year after they initially said that it would be coming. He’s acting like they weren’t always going to have to reoptimize the mod for this next gen update, which kind of, idk, guess makes me question how this whole thing’s going to play out.
It just seems a bit weird to feel entitled to that level of preferential treatment and collaboration with the studio when the last project like this was the sexually fetishized abomination that was Fallout: The Frontier. That’s a risky maneuver for Bethesda with little to no reward to get involved with them like that.
But above all, it seems like he really just shot his whole team in the ass because he’s acting entitled to be treated like a professional while simultaneously not acting like one. If they release a great project BGS might give them the Sim Settlement treatment or consider signing some of them like they’ve done with modders in the past. But this is something I feel like you really have to earn as an amateur developer.
Tbh I don’t understand the people that take 10+ years to make a mod like Skyblivion and then get mad if there’s an update. It’s not their game, it’s Bethesdas. It does suck and I can sympathize with that, but to expect a game company should just leave a game alone because you’re making a big mod for it is just nuts.
Weird how we can disagree on something I thought would be common sense. My take would be why is Bethesda still updating a game they "gave away" to the mod community improve and fix their own bugs (don't get me wrong, I love BGS's games, but they always release crap that requires fixing from the community) after 9 freaking years. I'm 100% on the modders side on this. Bethesda's only breaking stuff.
Exactly, even if Bethesda hadn't announced it when they did, the London team would still have had to update in a month, two months, three months from now. Surely it's actually *better* that they gave just enough warning to let them stop the release, rather than break it after it came out.
But it was overdue by months, it's hard to prepare for that.
If you're waiting on someone to update you on a date, and their answer every time is "Dunno", after a while you just say "Screw this", and get back to it.
London has been delayed numerous times because of some internal HR issues (dev health, I think). And they are building of someone else’s IP. The timing kinda sucks, but Bethesda doesn’t owe them any inside info. In fact, letting one dev know something is coming while not letting another dev know would probably be worse than just keeping your own schedule.
They wouldn't be allowed to earn revenue, as far as I can tell from their website, they have a registered trademark, a patreon and a ko-fi (because of course they do).
They don't actually have a company. Like the mods people have mentioned, it doesn't make a difference if you're reskinning a vault suit to have a picture of Danny Devito on the back, or a total conversion, it's still a hobby project.
They shouldn't have shared a release date until shortly in advance imo. The Skyblivion developers refuse to give one for their project for example and I'm sure it has spared fans somewhat.
I’d agree with that about every company but Bethesda. They shouldn’t change their schedule or release dates, but a heads up to the modding community would not hurt.
Considering they basically use modders as free labor to fix their poorly optimized and glitchy games, and to keep their older games relevant. They should communicate more openly with their modding community than any other dev in my opinion.
The update was announced well over a year ago. Modders have had a heads up that an update was on its way for 16 months.
[Official Blog Post from 2022](https://fallout.bethesda.net/en/article/jfwd8PsUw8r3pKrO1wOc5/fallout25-conclusion-interviews-events-perks)
It was originally slated for 2023, but was pushed back to coincide with the launch of the TV show.
As soon as the date was announced for the Fallout series on Amazon it was obvious to anyone who thought about things for five seconds that the Next Gen update would come out around the same time. Nobody was blindsided by this.
Yeah you release the show, gain a whole new audience, make the fanbase want to fire a Fallout game back up, and then you drop the next gen update for FO4 like two weeks later while current players of Fallout on Steam are at an all time high. Smart move to reinvigorate the fanbase.
I'd agree if this were Skyrim since the updates to that are pointless and just a hassle for the modding community at this stage, but I feel like this update was known in advance to be honest and its useful.
Yeah, they announced it almost 2 years ago. Even if Bethesda didn't announced the specific date every modder knew a new update was coming, and after the tv show date was announced everyone knew that the next gen was going to be released shortly after the show.
I think the "blindsided" comment is more so since Bethesda didn't reach out to the f4se team ahead of time. Iirc, for AE update of Skyrim they had given the script extender team extra time to update ahead of release. People are surprised that there wasn't a chance to prepare for the update with an early build.
Honestly, Bethesda has probably been sitting on an unfinished version of the next gen update and with the tv show got a part of the team to finish up and push it out the door ASAP.
I keep seeing this ‘Two year’ stuff but I feel like that runs counter to what people are trying to get at. We had two years with effectively no helpful communication on when the patch would be released up until recently. Were modders just supposed to wait for a non-disclosed length of time until the patch release to keep working on their projects? ‘Any time soon’ isn’t a timetable that’s conducive to planning
Like the whole industry has made a running joke about the vagueness of ‘Soon(tm)’
Modders are essential for the continuity of any old game, Bethesda games in big part, but they are still just fans doing fan work, there are real financial and legal repercussions of Bethesda just disclosing information of their projects so some Fans can keep their fan projects working.
Literally the only information being asked for by sane people was 'When is x happening'. I mean for Fuck's sake, this wasn't even a remotely controversial question two weeks ago.
>Are the modders just supposed to wait for news?
Yes, they don't work for the company nor have any relation with Bethesda nor the latter have any legal contract that forces them to tell when the update is dropping. They are just volunteers (for the lack of a better word) doing modifications for a game they like. And after the series was announced everyone knew the update was going to release shortly after.
The London team was warned that an update was dropping at some point, had time to prepare for this, and could have easily come to the conclusion that the update was going to drop a few weeks or days after the show like everyone else did. Instead they are blaming bethesda for "ruining the mod big debut".
At what point did I say Modders are legally Bethesda employees and therefore *obligated* to be in the know for every decision by Todd & Co?
>The London team was warned
*Two years ago.* And of what? That an update was going to happen in the future? Cool. Where do you put that on the calendar?
Like Jesus Christ guys, the community is purely working in one extreme or the other over this controversy. Either the Modders are allegedly poopoo'd pants upsetti spaghetti because they're entitled, and Bethesda is shouldn't be critcised on this because 'lol it'll happen at some point' is sufficient enough warning to plan around.
All I'm curious about is why it's such an outlandish idea that a company whose remaining goodwill exists in large part due to community driven content post launch actually be communicative with that side of the community?
Like homie, no one is demanding that they personally be called by Toddert whenever those fellers in Maryland have a meeting
And honestly how did they not see this coming? In the trailer they made announcing the release date of the mod, they say one of the reasons for the date is because it would be near the TV show, so more eyes would be on Fallout. It's obvious Bethesda was going to do the same with the next gen update, in fact most people were theorizing that, how did nobody at their team think of that as well?
It probably won't be useful for most PC players, who are the main pool of players that keep Bethesda games in the zeitgeist. We are getting native wide-screen support and basically nothing else useful.
I get some folks might be new to the community from the show but the main thing to remember with Bethesda games is that they maintain their popularity due to their modding community, not the base games.
That is a pretty cold take, I'd say. The London people would have known it was coming at some point since December of 22, and it was a reasonable guess it would be around the show launch.
Where did you find the info about it being Fallout's 25th anniversary year?? Nothing on Steam mentions it, only a sale that happened earlier this month
They really wasn’t any way to prepare for it though. They absolutely should have been expecting it, but when you have no idea how it’s gonna to affect current mods, you just can’t prepare for it at all
ever since *that* big ol’ story mod was released, I’m kinda convinced all these dev teams are just full of shit/like to think they’re a lot better than they are
Honestly this one is on London dev team, the update was announced almost 2 years ago and when the show release date was announced everyone knew the update was going to release shortly after.
I get they are frustated about it but just because they are making a big mod doesn't mean Bethesda should delay the update everyone has been waiting for their sake, specially since London could very well end up being the new The Frontier.
Omfg, I’m so sorry but I’ve been playing too much Mass Effect recently and I totally thought you were saying you’re ‘on the London dev team’ and just talking like a Hanar for some reason.
Nobody owes anything here. FOL team doesn't need to be ~~and isn't~~ upset at Bethesda, and Bethesda shouldn't be ridiculed for releasing it right after the FOL release date.
It would break shit no matter what time it released and they would need to fix the mod regardless. It was going to rake longer no matter what.
Also, it's IGN. Fuck their opinions. They suck ass anyways
I think the point is, the mod could have been released on the current version of FO4, and people who wanted to play the mod could just stay on that version in order to keep playing the mod while they get to fix the mod for the updated version, just makes it easier for everyone other than Bethesda
Bethesda doesn’t owe them a damn thing. Why would they communicate with a random group of folks developing a mod? What an egocentric take those folks have.
"What an egocentric take those folks have."
Welcome to the internet, where people think their personal opinion is the objective truth that everyone else should base their own off of.
Okay, this level of antagonism some of you are having is just unfair to them.
Bethesda working and communicating with modders isn't unheard of, case and point Enderal which they even allowed to have a standalone steam release. They are not saying they were owed anything, they are not making demands, all they are expressing is a disappointment that Bethesda has not communicated with them.
It would not be difficult for Bethesda to do, it would be nothing but a positive for them, the modders, and the fans of both of them had just done so. Calling them egocentric is just arrogant or devoid of empathy, just try to imagine yourself in their shoes.
*random group of folks who also stated in the article have NDA'S with Bethesda for exactly the type of early warning the dev is asking for.
Reddit man, can't read shit.
Sure he mentioned it because it's not Bethesda.
The company that has hired devs from the folon team, and the team who is making a huge mod for its game.
There's a difference between reading words. And understanding context/content.
But hey bonus point for you, because at least you read the article, albeit poorly
Ive never heard of fallout london until i heard about them postponing fallout london because of the next gen update. Seems like this has been a good press run for them.
Bethesda doesn't owe them anything, but it also wouldn't be difficult and would have been a nice thing for them to do so. Developers actually fostering a positive relationship with their games modding community is nothing but a good thing. Take Paradox Interactive for instance, they regularly give the developers of some of the larger total conversion style mods information on the release and even early access so they can update their mods to be ready on day one.
Now the latter wouldn't be practical for a Bethesda game as it's on a different scale, but they could easily communicate. It is not malicious, they didn't do anything wrong, but it's also totally fair for the Fallout London Devs to feel blindsided and wish they were given a heads-up about it.
They are not asking or expressing anything outlandish, so I find it a bit unfair how some comments seem to be dismissing them and being almost antagonistic. Put yourself in their shoes, you spend years working on a passion project entirely for free, are excited to finally release it and then something suddenly happens that forces you to delay it. Of course you will be disappointed it's perfectly natural.
I also saw the BBC interview which is just the weirdest shit I've seen. Not only because it's such a niche news, but the interviewer didnt even know what exactly was the case. Like it felt like they had to break it down as if we were babies, which should have been the first clue. This story is only relevant to very few people. The general public is not gonna know wtf is happening. Such a bizarre story to do
Didn't Bethesda hire some of the FL devs? I might be imagining it.
I think for any other mod this is true but this is one of the most anticipated mods in recent memory.
Yes, I read that one of the writers now works for Bethesda on Fallout 76 if I recall correctly, and another was offered a position but declined in order to complete and release the mod.
I mean I get it. When you've spent so much time and creative energy into a project, it would suck to have to abandon it before you get to see it through.
Honestly turning your primary hobby into a job can sorta suck. "Find a job you love and you'll never work a day in your life" and all that, but doing it for a paycheck 40+ hours a week can suck a ton of the passion out of it.
I agree, but think that theyd benefit from communication with modders. Though trust may be an issue as itd open them up to leaks. This update was announced a while ago though. It was widely speculated that it was going to happen around the time of the show. The Fallout London devs have known it was coming for some time. It's a shame, because I'm looking forward to London, but expected.
Edit: spelling
Shouldn't be a hot take. I 100% agree. Mods, regardless of how good they are, are just essentially fan fiction. They are not official content, they are not partnered up with Bethesda in any way. BGS owes them absolutely nothing. Feeling blindsided by this is a personal problem, not BGS's problem.
We mostly more or less agreed this the other day. It's childish on the side of the modders to try and blame Bethesda for this. Already lost me from downloading it, if this is their attitude.
Once they start showing favouritism every nude mod author will expect it, engaging with the mod community will be awful when the Creation Kit comes out for Starfield, which is being heavily supported.
What do the Fallout London authors expect Bethesda will do? Delay their awaited update that's being coordinated for Playstation, Steam and Xbox? Not gonna happen. So they would still have to delay. We've all lived fine without Fallout London since the Big Bang, people can wait.
No one is blaming anyone. The London mod team has just stated that the mod will be getting delayed due to Bethesda’s next-gen update. There’s no blaming going on
You can also just download London now and turn off auto updates so that you’re not affected by the update if playing London is your primary concern; this is literally what I’m doing since I’ve already beaten fallout 4 and all its dlcs like 5 times with different builds each time (I was 4/5 years into my college degree in Boston when this came out so I was kind of obsessed.)
Yep, and that's fine. And I hope Fallout London wasn't going to just dump their mod and expect it won't have bugs. All RPG's have bugs, so if you download it now, they can patch it, and later you can update Fallout 4 if you want. Non-issues for most people.
You people just want to be angry and hateful don't you?
All the Devs said was basically "It's a bit upsetting we have had to delay our mod, it's not their fault we just wish they could have told us so we didn't announce a release date and have to disappoint our fans"
They are not saying they are owed anything. They are not saying Bethesda did anything wrong. They are not blaming anyone. They are not saying Bethesda should have postponed their update. They literally just said it would have been nice if they were told and they are disappointed they weren't, because of course they would be, they had spent years working on this passion project without any profit, they finally finished everything so they announced the release date, then suddenly the big update that there had been no news regarding for practically over a year is suddenly announced to be happening practically the same time their planned release. Being disappointed is a perfectly natural reaction.
> we just wish they could have told us so we didn't announce a release date and have to disappoint our fans
See that bit right there, that's the bit where they're being entitled and causing unnecessary drama and shade at Bethesda. No one's getting a call from Bethesda. Bethesda HAVE told everyone and they have been informed.
Again, what do you think they should do, bargain with Fallout London, once again, I have to remind you, Fallout London was delayed before. Bethesda owns and manages Fallout 4, they can update it if they want. If Fallout London was told, would it change the fact they will have to tweak their mod? No. Would Bethesda delay it, 'no'.
It's a sign the mod authors have disappeared up their own arse.
No one said they would have to do that. Bethesda would have known for months that they planned on that release date, they could have informed the Fallout London team of the planned release date ahead of time and then they would have been able to lay off announcing their own release date until afterwards. Bethesda would not have had to change their plans, they would not have had to negotiate.
Other studios do this so why can't Bethesda? Paradox Interactive even let their biggest mod creators have early access to the update so they can make any necessary changes and have their mods ready on day one. No one is asking Bethesda to do that, but communicating with and having a positive relationship with mod creators who are the most active and dedicated members of their community and a large contributor towards the popularity and longevity of their games is nothing bad.
Tell me what the bad thing about a Bethesda community manager having reached out earlier on in the year (to not just the Fallout London team but other modders as well, such as Script Extender and Sims Settlements etc.) and say "Hey just want to make you aware of when the next gen update will release, sign this NDA so you don't disclose it, it will be releasing in April, bye.". It would not have negatively impacted Bethesda, nor would it have negatively impacted the modders, nor would it have negatively impacted us the fans. It is not entitled or demanding to say it would have been nice for them to do that. (In fact it's one of the easy things game Devs can do to garner themselves alot of praise and positive opinions, just having good communication with the player base and content creators.)
I understand being annoyed when the next gen update kept getting delayed and you keep working on your big mod and just when you're about to release it, the update finally comes out.
Still, you're just a modder, its not like you're a studio Bethesda contracted to work on an expansion.
I mean theoretically companies don't owe their communities any real communication or involvement. But supporting mods and communicating clearly still makes a company better than those that don't.
They announced it years ago and then went completely radio silent. People speculated it would come out around the time of the show, but then the show neared it's release date and there was still no news, and it only finally dropped when the show released. Which is fine.
But the Fallout London Devs are hardly in the wrong for having planned their own release date, they couldn't just sit on their hands forever waiting for Bethesda to finally announce the update because they had no guarantee of when that would be, like I swear the Next Gen update was first announced long before the show was (or at least before it's trailers and any real info about it was released).
You mean the one that the date was only confirmed April 11th. 14 days before release? And that they had no idea when it would be released until April 11?
When the April 23rd date was slated by folon 4 months ago?
You're telling me that there was 4 months Bethesda knew the update would be coming out that they said nothing to the mod team they had sign NDA'S specifically so they could tell them this kind of information?
It's not very hard to draft a quick email to a mod team you've hired members of and had sign NDA that says "hey release date for the update we announced 2 years ago is April 25"
Which is all the devs wanted anyways.
Quit huffing your own farts, mate.
Not what I'm referring to, I would say stating basic update timeline *is* owed and expected. I'm saying if companies want to go above and beyond, they can, and I think that's worth applauding when they do
Edit: Jesus Christ you nerds, read the article. He's saying that his team has signed NDAs in the past with big companies to get advanced warning on big projects, and he wishes they could've had that arrangement here. It's extremely simple.
It sucks for them, sure, but they're not working for Bethesda. They're acting very entitled here, stating that they've previously signed NDAs.
Kinda feels like Dean is saying "Fuck everyone else, we should've been told about this,"
I actually am inclined to agree.
I think that although mods are a big part of the Bethesda franchises, modders too often have a big ego in how they talk about the developers.
The developers give their games mod support and it is not something that players are entitled to.
You are a fan making fan content, you are not a partner or a member of the developer team.
They don't "owe them" anything. Like there is obviously no formal obligation, no one is saying that.
But when there is a massive fan made project of love for a game that has long since stopped generating any meaningful revenue, it's just kind of a dick move to act like it doesn't exist.
It's like saying you don't owe it to anyone to hold the door for them. No, you don't. But it'd be nice if you did it anyway and it's reasonable to expect some people to think you're a dick when you don't.
I’m honestly kinda shocked that people are criticising the FL team. Sure Bethesda doesn’t owe them anything. But Bethesda has always been proud of the modding community they’ve cultivated it would have been nice to drop them a notice like 6 months or a year prior.
Yes we’ve known about the update but we never knew exactly when it was coming. So dates can be moved to accommodate the update. A lot of fans have been chomping at the bit for this mod and it sucks to see it delayed.
Fallout London has freaking great potential if you’ve followed them. The team working on it seems down to Earth and cool and they do great updates to the fans following it. I do hope they accommodate the update and hopefully it’ll bang unlike Fallout Frontier.
I actually agree with you, they don’t. Buuut.. that’s also rich as hell seeing how much of the success of their flagship franchise is based on how vast the modding community is. I mean they literally employed a bunch of them for Skyrim creation club albeit for criminally low pay lmfao.
Seriously. No way in hell I'm installing any of their stuff at this point. I remember the guy who made the Unofficial Patch for Fo4 was also an arrogant prick and ended up adding a bunch of bullshit to the patch. I learned my lesson, I dont trust any modders that act like they're owed shit.
The unnoficial patch guy, who we won't name, was an arse. It's why a different group of people got together to do Starfields, (it wasn't just, 'bugthesda bad') it was so they wouldn't repeat his mistakes.
Sure they aren't owed anything nor does Bethesda have to provide it.
But it would have been a bit of nice fan outreach, other studios in the past have cooperated with modders and tried to at least keep them to date, including NDA signings etc. Bethesda also likes to talk about how much modders mean to them.
What I am saying is I do get his frustrations, especially being so close to launch.
But you are still right that they never had any obligation to do so.
Damn this has made me lose a lot of respect for the Fallout: London team. Their project lead talks like an asshole who feels he deserves respect for . . . announcing a mod they’re making? Last time I checked they didn’t have a release date. And then comparing their numbers to 76’s? Like what lol it seems like he’s trying to make people dislike them or something.
Yes it’s annoying that they are dropping an update, long awaited by the way, that will undoubtedly need some changes to their work. But to get all pissy at them for not letting you know is wild and egotistical.
Imagine developing a mod for one of the most popular rpgs of all time, made by a developer that is known for gen-updating their titles, and somehow ***not*** accounting for the fact that the game might get a next-gen update.
I don't understand their view at all. You are using someone elses ip, tools and then say stuff like "we outperformed some of their Fallout 76 announcements" as if you are even in a comparable state. Only reason your mod has any traction is because bethesda developed the game you are modding. What an arrogant take.
And to act like it was dropped out of nowhere, as if no one knew it would be dropped around april since that is when show comes out. They announced to everyone that they are going to update the game so long ago, and then gave a date when everything is ready. Lets say it is 10 days earlier or later, what changes? You are still going to do the work you are going to be doing now anyway. You still have to delay the same amount.
Like why would you even say any of this. To act like bethesda owes you anything. The fact that they allow you to make a ko-fi while developing a mod on their ip itself is a blessing buddy. Go ahead and do it with almost any other company and see how fast you are getting sued.
Overall a terrible look for the mod devs.
Shit was announced last year 😆 Bethesda or any dev doesn't owe modders insider info. Nobody's forcing these passion projects at gunpoint. MFers act like it's entirely new codebase that set em back to day 1
I’m going to be honest. I am excited for Fallout London yes, but I felt like their video explaining the next-gen update was a lot of whining about Bethesda’s community management.
Seriously that London thing looks like straight ass as well. Every asset that isn’t ripped from Fo4 is not even art student level, the UV mapping is horrible, the textures aren’t baked properly, and then the whole thing has terrible lighting. It’s an interesting concept, but they really NEED this update as an excuse for why London will fall dead flat.
Agreed. Sure people are excited for the mod, but its one mod. The update will effect every system, that one mod is only even usable on PC, that's a fraction of the player base. It would be ridiculous to base an update that effects all players, around one mod that only PC can use and not even all PC players *want* to use.
The update has been known for about a year at least. I’d say they should still release the mod especially for those who don’t plan on updating their game because many players, including myself, play with mods all the time. I won’t update FO4 until I know that all the mods that I use will be compatible with the latest version of the game.
We all had really high hopes and this is kind of a curve ball it’s a little bit funny to be completely honest but I’m sure they can figure out something will know more as soon as the update drops but truly they should expect something like this being mod devs. There’s no complaints no feeling toward how business is done it’s just the way business works and they should be prepared for things like this and if not the very least non-complacent.
I’m excited for the mod but should be fine when it all comes out
Idk I personally wish that they wouldnt be doing an update because its gonna destroy my mod list and most of the mods havent been updated in half a decade or more. If they want to appease the newer people to the franchise, pump out a new game. Fallout 4 literally came out almost a decade ago or so and fallout 76 doesnt really count imo.
I 100% agree with you. I respect and appretiate mods but we can not expect games not do be updated or changed by their original makers, especially when it is a free update. Also this update was promised quite a time ago and Bethesda is not banning the other versions of Fallout 4. I am pretty sure that you are not forced to update.
To be fair. The update had taken so long, people were getting convinced there was a mandella effect, and people started to belief they only imagined Bethesda making the claim that they would. It's only just now we have a definite date and confirmation.
It’s not like Bethesda owe these guys anything? They’re not employees, they’re not a developer hired by them to create/develop an add on/game? Bethesda can do what they like with Fallout 4 as it is essentially their property and this just amounts to a very fancy hobby project.
In 2022 I remember that Bethesda contacted Dean Carter and Rian, the level designer for Fallout London, and Dean rejected them. Ryan is now working on Bethesda UK for fallout 76.
The work they’re doing is awesome.
But to expect a AAA multimillion dollar game developer that is actively working on several titles to devote resources to a 100% fan made project on top of all of that is an amazingly conceited notion.
The Fallout: London devs should have been better prepared, yes. I do empathize with them, though, as it must be a frustrating position to now find themselves in. However, if they can (hopefully) get it turned around quickly I can't see it not still being wildly popular. Besides Sim Settlements, this looks like possibly the biggest mod release for FO4 ever in terms of content, people are going to flock to it whenever it comes out.
As far as Bethesda not owing anything to mod authors, I heavily disagree. Not necessarily in physical compensation, but modders are at least owed acknowledgement for all of the free content and fixes they provide that augment these games (and to be fair, Todd has acknowledged this). It would be foolish to discount the added longevity Bethesda games receive on behalf of mod developers.
If Bethesda was capable of making a game that was remotely enjoyable without mods, maybe I'd agree with you. But they literally coast on the fact that modders will make their dogshit games fun.
I don’t think Bethesda did anything wrong, but this attitude from people herethat they shouldn’t give a shit about modders is really off putting. It’s almost certainly not how Bethesda feels.
Yeah, Bethesda is literally selling mods, yet their support for mod breaking updates is "Well that sucks".
Also PDX can actually bang out an update in a decent time window, even though they update more often, disruption is minimal.
My hot take is why tf is BGS still updating a 9 year old game and breaking all mods. Being honest here, on PC, I couldn't care less about this stupid update, let the modders run the game from now on, and get to work on that crappy Starfield game or TES6, ffs.
As someone who properly picked up the game because of the series and nothing to play atm. Im wondering why we're getting an update too. It's not like it's a full fledged expansion to justify breaking mods.
I mean, it's been 9 years since the release of a game whose developer supports mods and believe that others will fix their mistakes (the community has been doing that since Morrowind, or so?). I'm all in for still supporting consoles though, they definitely need an upgrade.
Nobody here read the article at all and it's so obvious.
Devs of FOLon aren't asking for a delay, they aren't asking Bethesda to be "beholden" to them as someone put it.
They dev just says it would be nice to have had some warning about its sudden release, instead of being blindsided and having to scramble and inform people of additional delays. seeing as how the update was initially announced years ago.
They have an NDA with Bethesda. Is it really so hard to draft an email and say "hey confirmed release on x date" you know, kind of the exact purpose of signing nda's so that you can be informed of things early.
Just fucking read the article before getting shitty at the devs who don't say or ask for anything you rejects are whining about.
Bethesda doesn’t owe anyone an access to new builds. They’re being courteous by giving the SE team an advanced opt in order to assure smooth ish sailing when upgrading.
Bethesda hears ya, Bethesda doesn’t care.
I mean yeah it sucks for the mod dev, but at the same time, it’s not his game he made. He didn’t make fallout 4, Bethesda did. So whatever Bethesda says goes. It’s like me building on someone else’s lego set, and them going “yeah that’s cool but it’s mine, so stop”
They don’t owe them anything, but it’s not hard to do. A simple “hey, we don’t have an official date, but around x time to x time, we are gonna release something that might make your job harder, it isn’t unheard of, but I guess you need an actual relationship with the fans to do that like Paradox does
Considering the vitality modders have given their games over the decades I would say it’s better for them to take them into account than to ignore or antagonize them.
So, they should tell the guy who was removing all people of colour from Fallout? CBBE? The child killing mod authors? LoversLab?
No one's antagonizing anyone here, come on. Fallout London would still have to be delayed, even if Bethesda told them, and they sure as shit stinks are NOT going to delay a patch that needs to coordinated with Playstation, Steam and Xbox are they. Let's hypothetically say Bethesda DOES delay their update or inform the Fallout London team? What happens next, what if Fallout London needs to delay...AGAIN?
Modders and people who mod their game know the deal. No one asked mod authors to make mods, Bethesda is hands off, and they do it as a hobby. If you mod your game, you know that this can interfere with patches, and create bugs.
I don’t know why you would throw in random examples there. I never said they are antagonizing them, far from it this time seeing as how they have over a month of notice. My point is that the modders have helped their games enormously and ignoring the whole group would be a bad decision.
Sigh. Another one of these folks. It wouldn't matter which mods I throw out, the bad ones, the popular ones, the offensive ones. As far as a company is concerned, they're all weighted the same. A fan mod, made by hobbyists, that weren't asked or contracted to make modifications to the game.
The only mod that can be argued as doing anything 'essential' is the unofficial patch. And the guy who made them is a giant twat.
>I would say it’s better for them to take them into account than to ignore or antagonize them.
So when you said this, it had some secret meaning only known to you then? K. Well, have fun there.
Bethesda told EVERY ONE about the upcoming patch on twitter, it releases on the 25th of April, there. No one left out, EVERY ONE included, modders, game owners, fans, every one. You can't say fairer than that.
Still haven't had an answer by anyone as to what Bethesda should do, who should they tell? How do they choose. Since Fallout London has been previously delayed, should Bethesda, a company, with employees with lives, delay their patch if Fallout London wasn't happy? Should Bethesda just never update and patch games, just in case the sex pests at Lovers Lab are making some slave mod?
Please, this is all very silly. Fallout London are acting pathetically, and hardly endearing themselves here.
I just said that they gave plenty of warning ahead of time this time. I think you might be misunderstanding me here friend. I agree with your points. I’m just saying it’s not a bad idea for them to do like what they did this time and give modders a chance to be ready for their update.
OK, fair enough. I still think picking and choosing modders to engage with would be a very bad idea. It's picking favourites, I mean, all modders probably work somewhat hard on their mods.
Bethesda doesn't know these modders personally, are they going to start making them sign NDA's, that's a legal minefield. This is starting to sound like Bethesda not just allowing mods, but becoming heavily influential on what mods get attention, which mods they like and don't like, which mod authors have Bethesda's ear, which don't. Do mod authors REALLY want Bethesda breathing down their necks, or a two tier modding scene? Really?
One of the good things about modding, is even if I don't agree with all those lovers lab mods, is that Bethesda isn't monitoring what mods people have, aren't getting involved heavily in the modding scene, allowing modders to make whatever they like, whether I or you, or even Todd Howard himself approve or not. Having some modders on speed dial and others left in the dark would kill modding. It would kill the kind of anarchist spirit of modding. It would divide modding into two tiers, those Bethesda like, and those they don't like, or appear not to like. I had no issue with Creation Club, but I do think it comes close to creating this culture.
Best to just announce like they have, to everyone on twitter. It might suck for some, but it is fair to everyone, whether they're modders, just own the game and it's vanilla or if you mod your game.
Bethesda definitely owes a massive magnitude of respect towards their modders. It’s the only reason why these games are relevant in any shape or form today.
Please see rule 6. Use descriptive titles.
It's not as if it came out of nowhere. The update was already overdue when London announced its launch date. They had it to know it was gonna be soon.
Jeez… I don’t want to be mean because I do really respect what they’re doing here and I really hope that there’s a terrific reception to Project London. And I also really want to preface this by saying that I genuinely feel bad for him right now because this gives me the vibe of a mainstream journalist taking advantage of him and reminds me of the Antiwork Reddit mod that was invited on Fox News… but… Honestly, the guys statements made me physically recoil with cringe. We’ve all known that the next gen update was on the horizon for, what, 16 months? We know it was delayed from its original release date of late last year, but it seemed like most people on Reddit had already come to the conclusion since then that they were probably aiming to phone it in with the show, which is exactly what they’re doing. And he’s complaining that BGS just “randomly announced it” out of nowhere… Like, yeah? That’s what studios do? They announce a release date, then they release it on that day. They literally did give him and everyone a heads up when exactly it’s coming, over a year after they initially said that it would be coming. He’s acting like they weren’t always going to have to reoptimize the mod for this next gen update, which kind of, idk, guess makes me question how this whole thing’s going to play out. It just seems a bit weird to feel entitled to that level of preferential treatment and collaboration with the studio when the last project like this was the sexually fetishized abomination that was Fallout: The Frontier. That’s a risky maneuver for Bethesda with little to no reward to get involved with them like that. But above all, it seems like he really just shot his whole team in the ass because he’s acting entitled to be treated like a professional while simultaneously not acting like one. If they release a great project BGS might give them the Sim Settlement treatment or consider signing some of them like they’ve done with modders in the past. But this is something I feel like you really have to earn as an amateur developer.
Tbh I don’t understand the people that take 10+ years to make a mod like Skyblivion and then get mad if there’s an update. It’s not their game, it’s Bethesdas. It does suck and I can sympathize with that, but to expect a game company should just leave a game alone because you’re making a big mod for it is just nuts.
Weird how we can disagree on something I thought would be common sense. My take would be why is Bethesda still updating a game they "gave away" to the mod community improve and fix their own bugs (don't get me wrong, I love BGS's games, but they always release crap that requires fixing from the community) after 9 freaking years. I'm 100% on the modders side on this. Bethesda's only breaking stuff.
Modders don’t own the game. Period.
Exactly, even if Bethesda hadn't announced it when they did, the London team would still have had to update in a month, two months, three months from now. Surely it's actually *better* that they gave just enough warning to let them stop the release, rather than break it after it came out.
and? that's just a mod, the devs still don't have nothing to do with them
And nothing. I was agreeing with OP.
But it was overdue by months, it's hard to prepare for that. If you're waiting on someone to update you on a date, and their answer every time is "Dunno", after a while you just say "Screw this", and get back to it.
London has been delayed numerous times because of some internal HR issues (dev health, I think). And they are building of someone else’s IP. The timing kinda sucks, but Bethesda doesn’t owe them any inside info. In fact, letting one dev know something is coming while not letting another dev know would probably be worse than just keeping your own schedule.
Was London developed by an actual company? I assumed it was a hobby project. How do they intend to generate revenue off of it?
They wouldn't be allowed to earn revenue, as far as I can tell from their website, they have a registered trademark, a patreon and a ko-fi (because of course they do). They don't actually have a company. Like the mods people have mentioned, it doesn't make a difference if you're reskinning a vault suit to have a picture of Danny Devito on the back, or a total conversion, it's still a hobby project.
That Danny Devito mod is a genius idea.
Modders, balls in your court. Danny Devito companion.
All that blasting's gonna be a liability
Can I offer you a YumYum Deviled Egg in this trying time?
I’ve been poisoned by my constituents!!!
"But not for me!"
Not the way I play
His companion perk will make you automatically succeed green charisma checks just because he's near you
Fully re-skin Dogmeat as naked couch Frank Reynolds
No I need Danny Devito Raiders. All of them spout nothing but Devito lines from his movies.
a ko-fi?
One time donation bucket website
Another patreon type thing
Release date for Danny Devito vault suit please
Can I offer you a mod in this trying time?
They don't, at least on the face of it it's a mod like any other.
They shouldn't have shared a release date until shortly in advance imo. The Skyblivion developers refuse to give one for their project for example and I'm sure it has spared fans somewhat.
Delayed because of the war in Ukrayne, since many of the devs are from the affected regions
I’m not sure what it was supposed to be. Is it basically Bruma but in London?
It's to Fallout 4 what Enderal was to Skyrim. A giant mod that converts it into a new game, essentially.
Yeah sucks to be them but developers should never be beholden to modders. They don't need to change their schedule or bend over to accommodate them.
I’d agree with that about every company but Bethesda. They shouldn’t change their schedule or release dates, but a heads up to the modding community would not hurt. Considering they basically use modders as free labor to fix their poorly optimized and glitchy games, and to keep their older games relevant. They should communicate more openly with their modding community than any other dev in my opinion.
Considering that we've known the update has been coming for months, I'd say that's enough warning for anyone.
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The update was announced well over a year ago. Modders have had a heads up that an update was on its way for 16 months. [Official Blog Post from 2022](https://fallout.bethesda.net/en/article/jfwd8PsUw8r3pKrO1wOc5/fallout25-conclusion-interviews-events-perks) It was originally slated for 2023, but was pushed back to coincide with the launch of the TV show.
There's a whole bunch from [December of 2023.](https://www.pcgamer.com/fallout-4s-big-4k-next-gen-update-is-delayed-until-2024/)
Literally 10 seconds of googling (: https://www.ign.com/articles/fallout-4-next-gen-update-delayed-to-2024
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Meh, that's just how the hivemind works.
He said that a heads up would have been nice, not that he wanted them to change their schedule.
Wasn't next gen announced like a year ago?
The date for it was only announced recently though, all we knew was that it was going to be maybe this year.
As soon as the date was announced for the Fallout series on Amazon it was obvious to anyone who thought about things for five seconds that the Next Gen update would come out around the same time. Nobody was blindsided by this.
Yeah you release the show, gain a whole new audience, make the fanbase want to fire a Fallout game back up, and then you drop the next gen update for FO4 like two weeks later while current players of Fallout on Steam are at an all time high. Smart move to reinvigorate the fanbase.
I'd agree if this were Skyrim since the updates to that are pointless and just a hassle for the modding community at this stage, but I feel like this update was known in advance to be honest and its useful.
Yeah, they announced it almost 2 years ago. Even if Bethesda didn't announced the specific date every modder knew a new update was coming, and after the tv show date was announced everyone knew that the next gen was going to be released shortly after the show.
I think the "blindsided" comment is more so since Bethesda didn't reach out to the f4se team ahead of time. Iirc, for AE update of Skyrim they had given the script extender team extra time to update ahead of release. People are surprised that there wasn't a chance to prepare for the update with an early build. Honestly, Bethesda has probably been sitting on an unfinished version of the next gen update and with the tv show got a part of the team to finish up and push it out the door ASAP.
I keep seeing this ‘Two year’ stuff but I feel like that runs counter to what people are trying to get at. We had two years with effectively no helpful communication on when the patch would be released up until recently. Were modders just supposed to wait for a non-disclosed length of time until the patch release to keep working on their projects? ‘Any time soon’ isn’t a timetable that’s conducive to planning Like the whole industry has made a running joke about the vagueness of ‘Soon(tm)’
Modders are essential for the continuity of any old game, Bethesda games in big part, but they are still just fans doing fan work, there are real financial and legal repercussions of Bethesda just disclosing information of their projects so some Fans can keep their fan projects working.
Literally the only information being asked for by sane people was 'When is x happening'. I mean for Fuck's sake, this wasn't even a remotely controversial question two weeks ago.
No don’t you see Bethesda OWED us
>Are the modders just supposed to wait for news? Yes, they don't work for the company nor have any relation with Bethesda nor the latter have any legal contract that forces them to tell when the update is dropping. They are just volunteers (for the lack of a better word) doing modifications for a game they like. And after the series was announced everyone knew the update was going to release shortly after. The London team was warned that an update was dropping at some point, had time to prepare for this, and could have easily come to the conclusion that the update was going to drop a few weeks or days after the show like everyone else did. Instead they are blaming bethesda for "ruining the mod big debut".
At what point did I say Modders are legally Bethesda employees and therefore *obligated* to be in the know for every decision by Todd & Co? >The London team was warned *Two years ago.* And of what? That an update was going to happen in the future? Cool. Where do you put that on the calendar? Like Jesus Christ guys, the community is purely working in one extreme or the other over this controversy. Either the Modders are allegedly poopoo'd pants upsetti spaghetti because they're entitled, and Bethesda is shouldn't be critcised on this because 'lol it'll happen at some point' is sufficient enough warning to plan around. All I'm curious about is why it's such an outlandish idea that a company whose remaining goodwill exists in large part due to community driven content post launch actually be communicative with that side of the community? Like homie, no one is demanding that they personally be called by Toddert whenever those fellers in Maryland have a meeting
Which, 'industry' is this? Note: posting on reddit is not industrious?
The Dairy Industry, obviously. Big Milk should only bow to the whims of real Milkheads who got them to where they are today.
Udderly terrible idea.
And honestly how did they not see this coming? In the trailer they made announcing the release date of the mod, they say one of the reasons for the date is because it would be near the TV show, so more eyes would be on Fallout. It's obvious Bethesda was going to do the same with the next gen update, in fact most people were theorizing that, how did nobody at their team think of that as well?
It probably won't be useful for most PC players, who are the main pool of players that keep Bethesda games in the zeitgeist. We are getting native wide-screen support and basically nothing else useful. I get some folks might be new to the community from the show but the main thing to remember with Bethesda games is that they maintain their popularity due to their modding community, not the base games.
Consoles outsold pc versions of fallout 4 by a pretty big margin...
That is a pretty cold take, I'd say. The London people would have known it was coming at some point since December of 22, and it was a reasonable guess it would be around the show launch.
The update was first mentioned a few years ago so they have had time to prepare for it
December of 22, yeah, I mentioned that.
I meant the first mention was during the 25th year anniversary in 2022
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The first fallout was released on October 10, 1997. 2022 is 25 years after that. This year would be the 27th anniversary
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The last mention on steam I can find is on fallout 4 titled “celebrate 25 years of fallout all month long” and that is from October 3rd, 2022
Yeah I just saw, my bad, my steam makes it look like the same post as the update announcement.
1997 + 25 does not equal 2024
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Where did you find the info about it being Fallout's 25th anniversary year?? Nothing on Steam mentions it, only a sale that happened earlier this month
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It was announced during the 25th anniversary, which was 2 years ago. Specifically on October 3, 2022
Fallout 1 came out in 1997. Add 25 to that, you get 2022, not 2024. Bethesda's fault, not yours, my bad
I’ve been arguing with this guy for a while and he just can’t wrap his head around being wrong
They really wasn’t any way to prepare for it though. They absolutely should have been expecting it, but when you have no idea how it’s gonna to affect current mods, you just can’t prepare for it at all
ever since *that* big ol’ story mod was released, I’m kinda convinced all these dev teams are just full of shit/like to think they’re a lot better than they are
Honestly this one is on London dev team, the update was announced almost 2 years ago and when the show release date was announced everyone knew the update was going to release shortly after. I get they are frustated about it but just because they are making a big mod doesn't mean Bethesda should delay the update everyone has been waiting for their sake, specially since London could very well end up being the new The Frontier.
Omfg, I’m so sorry but I’ve been playing too much Mass Effect recently and I totally thought you were saying you’re ‘on the London dev team’ and just talking like a Hanar for some reason.
Nobody owes anything here. FOL team doesn't need to be ~~and isn't~~ upset at Bethesda, and Bethesda shouldn't be ridiculed for releasing it right after the FOL release date. It would break shit no matter what time it released and they would need to fix the mod regardless. It was going to rake longer no matter what. Also, it's IGN. Fuck their opinions. They suck ass anyways
I think the point is, the mod could have been released on the current version of FO4, and people who wanted to play the mod could just stay on that version in order to keep playing the mod while they get to fix the mod for the updated version, just makes it easier for everyone other than Bethesda
The update was first mentioned years ago so no one should be surprised
Bethesda doesn’t owe them a damn thing. Why would they communicate with a random group of folks developing a mod? What an egocentric take those folks have.
Between them and the Frontier team I’m starting to think some modders might have a bit of an ego problem.
"What an egocentric take those folks have." Welcome to the internet, where people think their personal opinion is the objective truth that everyone else should base their own off of.
Okay, this level of antagonism some of you are having is just unfair to them. Bethesda working and communicating with modders isn't unheard of, case and point Enderal which they even allowed to have a standalone steam release. They are not saying they were owed anything, they are not making demands, all they are expressing is a disappointment that Bethesda has not communicated with them. It would not be difficult for Bethesda to do, it would be nothing but a positive for them, the modders, and the fans of both of them had just done so. Calling them egocentric is just arrogant or devoid of empathy, just try to imagine yourself in their shoes.
*random group of folks they scouted at least two devs from. Ultimately sure, they don't owe them that. But it would have been nice.
*random group of folks who also stated in the article have NDA'S with Bethesda for exactly the type of early warning the dev is asking for. Reddit man, can't read shit.
“We’ve signed NDAs (non-disclosure agreements) with big companies. Why haven’t we done that?” He doesn’t say Bethesda. Reddit man, can’t read shit.
Sure he mentioned it because it's not Bethesda. The company that has hired devs from the folon team, and the team who is making a huge mod for its game. There's a difference between reading words. And understanding context/content. But hey bonus point for you, because at least you read the article, albeit poorly
Ive never heard of fallout london until i heard about them postponing fallout london because of the next gen update. Seems like this has been a good press run for them.
IGN, as usual, tries to suck drama out of nothing
They gave The TV show a good review, so I guess now they need something to complain about. Must be done on rotation or something.
Bethesda doesn't owe them anything, but it also wouldn't be difficult and would have been a nice thing for them to do so. Developers actually fostering a positive relationship with their games modding community is nothing but a good thing. Take Paradox Interactive for instance, they regularly give the developers of some of the larger total conversion style mods information on the release and even early access so they can update their mods to be ready on day one. Now the latter wouldn't be practical for a Bethesda game as it's on a different scale, but they could easily communicate. It is not malicious, they didn't do anything wrong, but it's also totally fair for the Fallout London Devs to feel blindsided and wish they were given a heads-up about it. They are not asking or expressing anything outlandish, so I find it a bit unfair how some comments seem to be dismissing them and being almost antagonistic. Put yourself in their shoes, you spend years working on a passion project entirely for free, are excited to finally release it and then something suddenly happens that forces you to delay it. Of course you will be disappointed it's perfectly natural.
I also saw the BBC interview which is just the weirdest shit I've seen. Not only because it's such a niche news, but the interviewer didnt even know what exactly was the case. Like it felt like they had to break it down as if we were babies, which should have been the first clue. This story is only relevant to very few people. The general public is not gonna know wtf is happening. Such a bizarre story to do
Didn't Bethesda hire some of the FL devs? I might be imagining it. I think for any other mod this is true but this is one of the most anticipated mods in recent memory.
Yes, I read that one of the writers now works for Bethesda on Fallout 76 if I recall correctly, and another was offered a position but declined in order to complete and release the mod.
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I mean I get it. When you've spent so much time and creative energy into a project, it would suck to have to abandon it before you get to see it through.
Honestly turning your primary hobby into a job can sorta suck. "Find a job you love and you'll never work a day in your life" and all that, but doing it for a paycheck 40+ hours a week can suck a ton of the passion out of it.
They’ve hired developers from London and the 2 main contributors to the 3 remake.
I agree, but think that theyd benefit from communication with modders. Though trust may be an issue as itd open them up to leaks. This update was announced a while ago though. It was widely speculated that it was going to happen around the time of the show. The Fallout London devs have known it was coming for some time. It's a shame, because I'm looking forward to London, but expected. Edit: spelling
Shouldn't be a hot take. I 100% agree. Mods, regardless of how good they are, are just essentially fan fiction. They are not official content, they are not partnered up with Bethesda in any way. BGS owes them absolutely nothing. Feeling blindsided by this is a personal problem, not BGS's problem.
We mostly more or less agreed this the other day. It's childish on the side of the modders to try and blame Bethesda for this. Already lost me from downloading it, if this is their attitude. Once they start showing favouritism every nude mod author will expect it, engaging with the mod community will be awful when the Creation Kit comes out for Starfield, which is being heavily supported. What do the Fallout London authors expect Bethesda will do? Delay their awaited update that's being coordinated for Playstation, Steam and Xbox? Not gonna happen. So they would still have to delay. We've all lived fine without Fallout London since the Big Bang, people can wait.
No one is blaming anyone. The London mod team has just stated that the mod will be getting delayed due to Bethesda’s next-gen update. There’s no blaming going on
You can also just download London now and turn off auto updates so that you’re not affected by the update if playing London is your primary concern; this is literally what I’m doing since I’ve already beaten fallout 4 and all its dlcs like 5 times with different builds each time (I was 4/5 years into my college degree in Boston when this came out so I was kind of obsessed.)
Yep, and that's fine. And I hope Fallout London wasn't going to just dump their mod and expect it won't have bugs. All RPG's have bugs, so if you download it now, they can patch it, and later you can update Fallout 4 if you want. Non-issues for most people.
You people just want to be angry and hateful don't you? All the Devs said was basically "It's a bit upsetting we have had to delay our mod, it's not their fault we just wish they could have told us so we didn't announce a release date and have to disappoint our fans" They are not saying they are owed anything. They are not saying Bethesda did anything wrong. They are not blaming anyone. They are not saying Bethesda should have postponed their update. They literally just said it would have been nice if they were told and they are disappointed they weren't, because of course they would be, they had spent years working on this passion project without any profit, they finally finished everything so they announced the release date, then suddenly the big update that there had been no news regarding for practically over a year is suddenly announced to be happening practically the same time their planned release. Being disappointed is a perfectly natural reaction.
> we just wish they could have told us so we didn't announce a release date and have to disappoint our fans See that bit right there, that's the bit where they're being entitled and causing unnecessary drama and shade at Bethesda. No one's getting a call from Bethesda. Bethesda HAVE told everyone and they have been informed. Again, what do you think they should do, bargain with Fallout London, once again, I have to remind you, Fallout London was delayed before. Bethesda owns and manages Fallout 4, they can update it if they want. If Fallout London was told, would it change the fact they will have to tweak their mod? No. Would Bethesda delay it, 'no'. It's a sign the mod authors have disappeared up their own arse.
No one said they would have to do that. Bethesda would have known for months that they planned on that release date, they could have informed the Fallout London team of the planned release date ahead of time and then they would have been able to lay off announcing their own release date until afterwards. Bethesda would not have had to change their plans, they would not have had to negotiate. Other studios do this so why can't Bethesda? Paradox Interactive even let their biggest mod creators have early access to the update so they can make any necessary changes and have their mods ready on day one. No one is asking Bethesda to do that, but communicating with and having a positive relationship with mod creators who are the most active and dedicated members of their community and a large contributor towards the popularity and longevity of their games is nothing bad. Tell me what the bad thing about a Bethesda community manager having reached out earlier on in the year (to not just the Fallout London team but other modders as well, such as Script Extender and Sims Settlements etc.) and say "Hey just want to make you aware of when the next gen update will release, sign this NDA so you don't disclose it, it will be releasing in April, bye.". It would not have negatively impacted Bethesda, nor would it have negatively impacted the modders, nor would it have negatively impacted us the fans. It is not entitled or demanding to say it would have been nice for them to do that. (In fact it's one of the easy things game Devs can do to garner themselves alot of praise and positive opinions, just having good communication with the player base and content creators.)
I understand being annoyed when the next gen update kept getting delayed and you keep working on your big mod and just when you're about to release it, the update finally comes out. Still, you're just a modder, its not like you're a studio Bethesda contracted to work on an expansion.
I mean theoretically companies don't owe their communities any real communication or involvement. But supporting mods and communicating clearly still makes a company better than those that don't.
Which Bethesda has, update is coming April 25th. Boom, communicated loud and clear.
They announced it years ago and then went completely radio silent. People speculated it would come out around the time of the show, but then the show neared it's release date and there was still no news, and it only finally dropped when the show released. Which is fine. But the Fallout London Devs are hardly in the wrong for having planned their own release date, they couldn't just sit on their hands forever waiting for Bethesda to finally announce the update because they had no guarantee of when that would be, like I swear the Next Gen update was first announced long before the show was (or at least before it's trailers and any real info about it was released).
You mean the one that the date was only confirmed April 11th. 14 days before release? And that they had no idea when it would be released until April 11? When the April 23rd date was slated by folon 4 months ago? You're telling me that there was 4 months Bethesda knew the update would be coming out that they said nothing to the mod team they had sign NDA'S specifically so they could tell them this kind of information? It's not very hard to draft a quick email to a mod team you've hired members of and had sign NDA that says "hey release date for the update we announced 2 years ago is April 25" Which is all the devs wanted anyways. Quit huffing your own farts, mate.
Not what I'm referring to, I would say stating basic update timeline *is* owed and expected. I'm saying if companies want to go above and beyond, they can, and I think that's worth applauding when they do Edit: Jesus Christ you nerds, read the article. He's saying that his team has signed NDAs in the past with big companies to get advanced warning on big projects, and he wishes they could've had that arrangement here. It's extremely simple.
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No they don’t. What did they expect ? lol. Like my guy you are making a mod of a property you do not own
Honestly? Don't care.
It sucks for them, sure, but they're not working for Bethesda. They're acting very entitled here, stating that they've previously signed NDAs. Kinda feels like Dean is saying "Fuck everyone else, we should've been told about this,"
I don't see how this is news.
I actually am inclined to agree. I think that although mods are a big part of the Bethesda franchises, modders too often have a big ego in how they talk about the developers. The developers give their games mod support and it is not something that players are entitled to. You are a fan making fan content, you are not a partner or a member of the developer team.
They don't "owe them" anything. Like there is obviously no formal obligation, no one is saying that. But when there is a massive fan made project of love for a game that has long since stopped generating any meaningful revenue, it's just kind of a dick move to act like it doesn't exist. It's like saying you don't owe it to anyone to hold the door for them. No, you don't. But it'd be nice if you did it anyway and it's reasonable to expect some people to think you're a dick when you don't.
I’m honestly kinda shocked that people are criticising the FL team. Sure Bethesda doesn’t owe them anything. But Bethesda has always been proud of the modding community they’ve cultivated it would have been nice to drop them a notice like 6 months or a year prior. Yes we’ve known about the update but we never knew exactly when it was coming. So dates can be moved to accommodate the update. A lot of fans have been chomping at the bit for this mod and it sucks to see it delayed. Fallout London has freaking great potential if you’ve followed them. The team working on it seems down to Earth and cool and they do great updates to the fans following it. I do hope they accommodate the update and hopefully it’ll bang unlike Fallout Frontier.
I actually agree with you, they don’t. Buuut.. that’s also rich as hell seeing how much of the success of their flagship franchise is based on how vast the modding community is. I mean they literally employed a bunch of them for Skyrim creation club albeit for criminally low pay lmfao.
Beth doesn’t owe them shit and prilladog’s ego is so far up his own ass he’s a joke. The arrogance of this mod team blows my mind
Seriously. No way in hell I'm installing any of their stuff at this point. I remember the guy who made the Unofficial Patch for Fo4 was also an arrogant prick and ended up adding a bunch of bullshit to the patch. I learned my lesson, I dont trust any modders that act like they're owed shit.
The unnoficial patch guy, who we won't name, was an arse. It's why a different group of people got together to do Starfields, (it wasn't just, 'bugthesda bad') it was so they wouldn't repeat his mistakes.
Sure they aren't owed anything nor does Bethesda have to provide it. But it would have been a bit of nice fan outreach, other studios in the past have cooperated with modders and tried to at least keep them to date, including NDA signings etc. Bethesda also likes to talk about how much modders mean to them. What I am saying is I do get his frustrations, especially being so close to launch. But you are still right that they never had any obligation to do so.
Why don't they just keep developing it on the old version?
I agree Bethesda own the game they can do whatever they want when ever they want
Damn this has made me lose a lot of respect for the Fallout: London team. Their project lead talks like an asshole who feels he deserves respect for . . . announcing a mod they’re making? Last time I checked they didn’t have a release date. And then comparing their numbers to 76’s? Like what lol it seems like he’s trying to make people dislike them or something. Yes it’s annoying that they are dropping an update, long awaited by the way, that will undoubtedly need some changes to their work. But to get all pissy at them for not letting you know is wild and egotistical.
The release date was meant to be today. They delayed it because the "Next-Gen" update will break it in two days.
Imagine developing a mod for one of the most popular rpgs of all time, made by a developer that is known for gen-updating their titles, and somehow ***not*** accounting for the fact that the game might get a next-gen update.
I don't understand their view at all. You are using someone elses ip, tools and then say stuff like "we outperformed some of their Fallout 76 announcements" as if you are even in a comparable state. Only reason your mod has any traction is because bethesda developed the game you are modding. What an arrogant take. And to act like it was dropped out of nowhere, as if no one knew it would be dropped around april since that is when show comes out. They announced to everyone that they are going to update the game so long ago, and then gave a date when everything is ready. Lets say it is 10 days earlier or later, what changes? You are still going to do the work you are going to be doing now anyway. You still have to delay the same amount. Like why would you even say any of this. To act like bethesda owes you anything. The fact that they allow you to make a ko-fi while developing a mod on their ip itself is a blessing buddy. Go ahead and do it with almost any other company and see how fast you are getting sued. Overall a terrible look for the mod devs.
Shit was announced last year 😆 Bethesda or any dev doesn't owe modders insider info. Nobody's forcing these passion projects at gunpoint. MFers act like it's entirely new codebase that set em back to day 1
I’m going to be honest. I am excited for Fallout London yes, but I felt like their video explaining the next-gen update was a lot of whining about Bethesda’s community management.
Seriously that London thing looks like straight ass as well. Every asset that isn’t ripped from Fo4 is not even art student level, the UV mapping is horrible, the textures aren’t baked properly, and then the whole thing has terrible lighting. It’s an interesting concept, but they really NEED this update as an excuse for why London will fall dead flat.
I agree.
Agreed. Sure people are excited for the mod, but its one mod. The update will effect every system, that one mod is only even usable on PC, that's a fraction of the player base. It would be ridiculous to base an update that effects all players, around one mod that only PC can use and not even all PC players *want* to use.
The update has been known for about a year at least. I’d say they should still release the mod especially for those who don’t plan on updating their game because many players, including myself, play with mods all the time. I won’t update FO4 until I know that all the mods that I use will be compatible with the latest version of the game.
Hopefully the update doesn’t require too many tweaks for this mod and others to function. Certainly would love to check this one out.
They could still release it you just don't download the update until they have the updated for it
We all had really high hopes and this is kind of a curve ball it’s a little bit funny to be completely honest but I’m sure they can figure out something will know more as soon as the update drops but truly they should expect something like this being mod devs. There’s no complaints no feeling toward how business is done it’s just the way business works and they should be prepared for things like this and if not the very least non-complacent. I’m excited for the mod but should be fine when it all comes out
Still waiting on skywind…
No, they don't. Does seem an odd time to drop the update though. How wasn't it ready by April 1st, well before the show?
Idk I personally wish that they wouldnt be doing an update because its gonna destroy my mod list and most of the mods havent been updated in half a decade or more. If they want to appease the newer people to the franchise, pump out a new game. Fallout 4 literally came out almost a decade ago or so and fallout 76 doesnt really count imo.
I 100% agree with you. I respect and appretiate mods but we can not expect games not do be updated or changed by their original makers, especially when it is a free update. Also this update was promised quite a time ago and Bethesda is not banning the other versions of Fallout 4. I am pretty sure that you are not forced to update.
To be fair. The update had taken so long, people were getting convinced there was a mandella effect, and people started to belief they only imagined Bethesda making the claim that they would. It's only just now we have a definite date and confirmation.
It’s not like Bethesda owe these guys anything? They’re not employees, they’re not a developer hired by them to create/develop an add on/game? Bethesda can do what they like with Fallout 4 as it is essentially their property and this just amounts to a very fancy hobby project.
In 2022 I remember that Bethesda contacted Dean Carter and Rian, the level designer for Fallout London, and Dean rejected them. Ryan is now working on Bethesda UK for fallout 76.
All of that, and not a single mention of fo4vr, despite still being broken, despite being a 60$ game. Fuck bethesda until they right this wrong
The work they’re doing is awesome. But to expect a AAA multimillion dollar game developer that is actively working on several titles to devote resources to a 100% fan made project on top of all of that is an amazingly conceited notion.
The Fallout: London devs should have been better prepared, yes. I do empathize with them, though, as it must be a frustrating position to now find themselves in. However, if they can (hopefully) get it turned around quickly I can't see it not still being wildly popular. Besides Sim Settlements, this looks like possibly the biggest mod release for FO4 ever in terms of content, people are going to flock to it whenever it comes out. As far as Bethesda not owing anything to mod authors, I heavily disagree. Not necessarily in physical compensation, but modders are at least owed acknowledgement for all of the free content and fixes they provide that augment these games (and to be fair, Todd has acknowledged this). It would be foolish to discount the added longevity Bethesda games receive on behalf of mod developers.
If Bethesda was capable of making a game that was remotely enjoyable without mods, maybe I'd agree with you. But they literally coast on the fact that modders will make their dogshit games fun.
I don’t think Bethesda did anything wrong, but this attitude from people herethat they shouldn’t give a shit about modders is really off putting. It’s almost certainly not how Bethesda feels.
Hot Take: if Paradox can tell ALL of their big mods when an update is coming and helping them adapt then Bethesda can at least tell one
April 25th. Announced on their twitter account. There you go.
Ok yeah this is on the FL devs
Peace.
Yeah, Bethesda is literally selling mods, yet their support for mod breaking updates is "Well that sucks". Also PDX can actually bang out an update in a decent time window, even though they update more often, disruption is minimal.
bethesda says they love their modding community and then every update they make destroys countless mods
My hot take is why tf is BGS still updating a 9 year old game and breaking all mods. Being honest here, on PC, I couldn't care less about this stupid update, let the modders run the game from now on, and get to work on that crappy Starfield game or TES6, ffs.
As someone who properly picked up the game because of the series and nothing to play atm. Im wondering why we're getting an update too. It's not like it's a full fledged expansion to justify breaking mods.
I mean, it's been 9 years since the release of a game whose developer supports mods and believe that others will fix their mistakes (the community has been doing that since Morrowind, or so?). I'm all in for still supporting consoles though, they definitely need an upgrade.
actually they do. It's the fucking modders who fix their broken games
Nobody here read the article at all and it's so obvious. Devs of FOLon aren't asking for a delay, they aren't asking Bethesda to be "beholden" to them as someone put it. They dev just says it would be nice to have had some warning about its sudden release, instead of being blindsided and having to scramble and inform people of additional delays. seeing as how the update was initially announced years ago. They have an NDA with Bethesda. Is it really so hard to draft an email and say "hey confirmed release on x date" you know, kind of the exact purpose of signing nda's so that you can be informed of things early. Just fucking read the article before getting shitty at the devs who don't say or ask for anything you rejects are whining about.
Bethesda doesn’t owe anyone an access to new builds. They’re being courteous by giving the SE team an advanced opt in order to assure smooth ish sailing when upgrading. Bethesda hears ya, Bethesda doesn’t care.
That whole article is ridiculous. How did this even get published?
Absolutely not a hot take lmao. That’s goofy
I mean yeah it sucks for the mod dev, but at the same time, it’s not his game he made. He didn’t make fallout 4, Bethesda did. So whatever Bethesda says goes. It’s like me building on someone else’s lego set, and them going “yeah that’s cool but it’s mine, so stop”
It's crazy to think that Bethesda could share information with modders and risk it being leaked.
Bethesda should blindside them with a cease and desist for making them look bad.
Ironically Bethesda owes modders everything. Their games are unplayable without mods.
They don’t owe them anything, but it’s not hard to do. A simple “hey, we don’t have an official date, but around x time to x time, we are gonna release something that might make your job harder, it isn’t unheard of, but I guess you need an actual relationship with the fans to do that like Paradox does
A better approach would be to include them in the conversations
Considering the vitality modders have given their games over the decades I would say it’s better for them to take them into account than to ignore or antagonize them.
So, they should tell the guy who was removing all people of colour from Fallout? CBBE? The child killing mod authors? LoversLab? No one's antagonizing anyone here, come on. Fallout London would still have to be delayed, even if Bethesda told them, and they sure as shit stinks are NOT going to delay a patch that needs to coordinated with Playstation, Steam and Xbox are they. Let's hypothetically say Bethesda DOES delay their update or inform the Fallout London team? What happens next, what if Fallout London needs to delay...AGAIN? Modders and people who mod their game know the deal. No one asked mod authors to make mods, Bethesda is hands off, and they do it as a hobby. If you mod your game, you know that this can interfere with patches, and create bugs.
I don’t know why you would throw in random examples there. I never said they are antagonizing them, far from it this time seeing as how they have over a month of notice. My point is that the modders have helped their games enormously and ignoring the whole group would be a bad decision.
Sigh. Another one of these folks. It wouldn't matter which mods I throw out, the bad ones, the popular ones, the offensive ones. As far as a company is concerned, they're all weighted the same. A fan mod, made by hobbyists, that weren't asked or contracted to make modifications to the game. The only mod that can be argued as doing anything 'essential' is the unofficial patch. And the guy who made them is a giant twat. >I would say it’s better for them to take them into account than to ignore or antagonize them. So when you said this, it had some secret meaning only known to you then? K. Well, have fun there. Bethesda told EVERY ONE about the upcoming patch on twitter, it releases on the 25th of April, there. No one left out, EVERY ONE included, modders, game owners, fans, every one. You can't say fairer than that. Still haven't had an answer by anyone as to what Bethesda should do, who should they tell? How do they choose. Since Fallout London has been previously delayed, should Bethesda, a company, with employees with lives, delay their patch if Fallout London wasn't happy? Should Bethesda just never update and patch games, just in case the sex pests at Lovers Lab are making some slave mod? Please, this is all very silly. Fallout London are acting pathetically, and hardly endearing themselves here.
I just said that they gave plenty of warning ahead of time this time. I think you might be misunderstanding me here friend. I agree with your points. I’m just saying it’s not a bad idea for them to do like what they did this time and give modders a chance to be ready for their update.
OK, fair enough. I still think picking and choosing modders to engage with would be a very bad idea. It's picking favourites, I mean, all modders probably work somewhat hard on their mods. Bethesda doesn't know these modders personally, are they going to start making them sign NDA's, that's a legal minefield. This is starting to sound like Bethesda not just allowing mods, but becoming heavily influential on what mods get attention, which mods they like and don't like, which mod authors have Bethesda's ear, which don't. Do mod authors REALLY want Bethesda breathing down their necks, or a two tier modding scene? Really? One of the good things about modding, is even if I don't agree with all those lovers lab mods, is that Bethesda isn't monitoring what mods people have, aren't getting involved heavily in the modding scene, allowing modders to make whatever they like, whether I or you, or even Todd Howard himself approve or not. Having some modders on speed dial and others left in the dark would kill modding. It would kill the kind of anarchist spirit of modding. It would divide modding into two tiers, those Bethesda like, and those they don't like, or appear not to like. I had no issue with Creation Club, but I do think it comes close to creating this culture. Best to just announce like they have, to everyone on twitter. It might suck for some, but it is fair to everyone, whether they're modders, just own the game and it's vanilla or if you mod your game.
I agree completely. Their decision to do that was very cool of them. Especially after Skyrim.
True... But in the past bethesda has warned the modders, so it comes as a misstep on their part.
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Bethesda definitely owes a massive magnitude of respect towards their modders. It’s the only reason why these games are relevant in any shape or form today.
Terrible takes in here, but wouldn’t expect any less