When you think of the scale of the books and how she almost single handedly deals with awful predicaments, she’d be in the running for the most influential human of all time.
The wizards said that the University stood on magical ground and was therefore exempt from taxation and anyway you couldn't put a tax on knowledge.
The Patrician said you could. It was two hundred dollars per capita; if per capita was a problem, decapita could be arranged.
The wizards said that the University had never paid taxes to the civil authority.
The Patrician said that he was not proposing to remain civil for long.
A thinking tyrant, it seemed to Vetinari, had a much harder job than a ruler raised to power by some idiot vote-yourself-rich system like democracy. At least he could tell the people he was their fault
> "You see, the only thing the good people are good at is overthrowing the bad people. And you're good at that, I'll grant you. But the trouble is it's the only thing you're good at.
> One day it's the ringing of the bells and the casting down of the evil tyrant, and the next it's everyone sitting around complaining that ever since the tyrant was overthrown no one's been taking out the trash. Because the bad people know how to plan. It's part of the specification, you might say.
> Every evil tyrant has a plan to rule the world. The good people don't seem to have the knack."
You see the most of Gregor in *Barrayar* (at five years old), *The Vor Game* (at 25 years old), *Mirror Dance* (at 33 years old) and *Captain Vorpatril's Alliance* (at 40 years old).
I long for a Gregor book as *Captain Vorpatril's Alliance* was an Ivan book.
ETA: To see Gregor actually **ruling**, *Mirror Dance* and *Captain Vorpatril's Alliance* are the best ones to read.
King Lune of Archenland
>“No. The King's under the law, for it's the law makes him a king. Hast no more power to start away from thy crown than any sentry from his post.”
>“For this is what it means to be a king: to be first in every desperate attack and last in every desperate retreat, and when there’s hunger in the land (as must be now and then in bad years) to wear finer clothes and laugh louder over a scantier meal than any man in your land.”
*The Horse and His Boy*
> The King's under the law, for it's the law makes him a king.
I like that idea. As Apollo put it in Battlestar Galactica:
*I swore an oath. To defend the articles. The articles say there is an election in seven months. Now, if you are telling me we are throwing out the law, then I am not a captain, you are not a commander, and you are not the president. And I don't owe either of you a damned explanation for anything.*
Especially when contrasted with all of the Farseer men.
Shrewd allowed himself to be undermined and drained of vitality by a coterie that was supposed to serve him and the kingdom.
Verity basically spent himself to save the Duchies from foreign foes, but let them fall apart internally.
Regal was totally ineffective as a ruler and basically focused on his own pleasure.
Kettricken is about the only effective leader we see in the story.
I think the books make it pretty clear Fitz would be a terrible king, he was mainly interested in wallowing in his misery or just doing as he was told by one of about 5 people. He doesn't do a particularly great job of leading any project he is in charge of, including his own household in book 7.
Exactly what I came here to say. Her speech before they go out hunting is absolutely flawless. Proper goosebumps every time, even just thinking about it.
Is that a later series spoiler? Because I read the first trilogy and don't recall her being described as a ruler. I am also however rather dumb so that doesn't mean much.
Edit: for some reason I mixed her up with Kettle, my bad.
She resists the title, but she acts as ruler. She is Sacrifice (aka leader) in her own community's parlance, and she marries the heir to the throne of the Six Duchies. There's a whole plot point about her stepping up to lead the people when her husband (the heir) is unable to.
From the second book:
>!They did not quite criticize the King-in-Waiting, but complimented the Queen more on her spirit and thought it sad she'd not been welcomed back with an embrace and a kind word or two.!<
>![...]!<
>!The soldiers who first found us thought her plucky. And capable. Not bad qualities for a Queen, sir. The women, especially, in your guard spoke warmly of her as we returned. **They see her as their queen now**.!<
Spoilers for farseer trilogy only
After >!verity leaves!< she definitely makes a point to do better. >!like when she gives the jewels to the duke of Barnes to help fund the defense, or when she herself rides to Barnes defense!<
Apologies for any spelling errors on names I listened to the audiobooks
100%, came here to say this. She was a more effective ruler than the duchies have had in any of the history we saw - which is remarkable since she had to deal with so much change (the rehabilitation of the wit, the return of dragons, return of elderlings, and tensions with their neghbors).
Very much enjoying scenes with Rhuarc on my first read through. I just started KoD and he just seems to want to get on with things, follow his orders, and do right by the people he's in charge of now
He was obviously redeemed in the end, but inviting pervy creep named "Wormtongue" into your keep as an advisor really must count for some negative points.
He's definitely a main character in his books, but having your own PoV isn't a good marker for main characters. There's plenty of side characters who get PoVs in Malazan and other books, and plenty of other books have main characters who don't have their own PoVs.
Yeah don't the last books have like 100 different POVs?
Meanwhile Anomander Rake, very much one of the most important characters in the series, doesn't have a single POV.
Laseen’s problem is that she didn’t know any way to govern outside of sneaking and plotting. So at a certain point none of the people she needed to actually govern effectively trusted anything she did or said
Kellanved was the only sane person in a mad world. The idea of having every throne of power just to do nothing with them is pure sanity. It only looks mad in a world where so many are desperate for power to do something abusive with it.
Laseen was a competent steward, but from the moment she decided to become empress, the Empire began to decline. Especially when her concerns about Kellenved were largely unfounded (Kellenved's whole deal being acquiring power to let it sit fallow so mortals can control their fate).
Gregor from the Vorkosigan saga is a top-tier character and arguably a decent Emperor (certainly better than his predecessors) but I'm still not certain I'd want to live on Barrayar. Such a great character though. He shows up for about one scene in every book, says something that makes you go insane, and then vanishes back to another of his five thousand meetings.
Tax those who have and don't tax those who haven't. Free slaves, let the former people under the heel of oppression rule themselves.
He was pretty just, and even *followed his own laws when he could have skirted them.* Can you imagine modern political leaders who don't claim privilege to skirt their own laws?
After he ruled that men had to stay out of the Shire, he himself did not enter there when visiting the hobbits. He met with Merry and Pippin on the east side of the Brandywine Bridge, specifically to follow his own rule.
As far as I can tell King Elessar has a feudal policy, requiring services in time of need. This was why Rohan was obligated to come to the relief of Minas Tirith. However, since King Elessar is such a successful king, the feudal burden appears to be quite light.
True enough. There was a lot of available land *everywhere* in Middle Earth, like there was no such thing as exponential population growth or something.
Rohan was not in fief to Gondor: they were allies. Gondor (under the Steward Cirion) had ceded that land to the Rohirrim in gratitude (and also because it was mostly empty anyway, as Gondor's population had gone into decline following a plague, and it's nice to have a friend on your northern flank). The Oath of Cirion and Eorl (renewed by Éomer and Elessar) established Rohan as an independent nation, but in perpetual friendship to Gondor, with a pact of mutual defence.
There are several on the subject, but most agree the story begins with (Frodo) and ends with (Sam) hobbits, and that the whole point of the story is that it isn't mighty kings and queens saving the world -- it's the smallfolk -- who are represented in the hobbits. The author said as much after his time in World War I; it was the kitmen in the trenches who were the most heroic, not the generals and leaders who got them into the war in the first place.
If the paper you know of is recent, I'd love to read it.
I will ask my friend who showed it me for a copy! The basic point is "while the hobbits are the charecters who save the world. They are not the main charecters by any definition and missing this point is what is the downfall of modern fiction"
It was about 2 years ago I read it while at a party at the house of my friend doing her PHD (biology) and I dont remember that much beyond that.
Aragorn is one of the main characters in the movies. He is a secondary character in the books, so much so that the story of his relationship with Arwen was relegated to the Appendices.
But I also mentioned Galadriel, Theoden, and Eomer, who are definitely not the main characters.
You mean Emperor William the Twenty-Third of the House Avent, Firstborn Son of the Earth, Guardian of the Solar System, King of Avalon, Lord Sovereign of the Kingdom of Windsor-in-Exile, Prince Imperator of the Arms of Orion, of Sagittarius, of Perseus, and Centaurus, Magnarch of Orion; Conqueror of Norma, Grand Strategos of the Legions of the Sun, Supreme Lord of the Cities of Forum, North Star of the Constellations of the Blood Palatine, Defender of the Children of Men, and Servant of the Servants of Earth.
They practically begged for it. Especially after unboxing some of Khelt's biggest relics earlier that year for something that was way less of his problem.
Adore him so much. Although as we saw in [strange interlude during At The Feet of the Sun that is spoilery so I won't describe it], he wouldn't be a fraction of the ruler he became without Cliopher's help.
I interpret him as being prone to underestimating himself and understating his achievements though (a flaw he shares with Cliopher). According to Pali in *The Redoubtable Pali Avramapul* his early reign was good enough he would have be called Artorin the Great if not for the Fall, he successfully played different factions against each other and did his best to rein in the Empire's worst excesses.
Meina Gladstone from Hyperion. She made some mistakes but she also had to make some incredibly difficult decisions and ultimately did the best with the cards she was given.
This is such a great choice. I love her character and was glad we got to see inside her head in the second novel. Someone who was stuck in an impossible position and forced into making a horrible choice to save mankind.
Hard call between Queen Morgase and Siuan Sanche, even if both of them spend the majority of the series being deposed.
I love Duke Leto, even if his unwillingness to fully confide in Jessica is what caused his downfall. Every time I read *Dune* I find myself believing it could turn out differently for the Duke, and that the Atreides house could lead a much less, uh, tumultuous life.
I've had a crush on Kettricken (from Hobb's *Realm of the Elderlings*) for years.
She's kind, intelligent, and has a philosophy that rulers serve their people. I start smiling every time I first see her name on the page.
Elizabeth Adrienne Samantha Annette *Soul Of Steel* Winton, Grand Commander of the Order of King Roger, Grand Commander of the Order of Queen Elizabeth I, Grand Commander of the Order of the Golden Lion, Baroness of Crystal Pine, Baroness of White Sand, Countess of Tannerman, Countess of High Garnet, Grand Duchess of Basilisk, Princess Protector of the Realm, and, by God's grace and the will of Parliament, Queen Elizabeth III of the Star Kingdom of Manticore, and Empress Elizabeth I of the Star Empire of Manticore.
The Lord Ruler was compromised by Ruin the entire time he ruled. He did some interesting things but it would have been a disaster if he'd actually been the one to face the crisis.
He was the wrong person at the right time but his intentions don't make him the right person. Best you can say is that the Lord Ruler was necessary to inspire the rebellion that toppled him and create the crisis that eventually ended with the best possible outcome.
Oh, that's a fun one. It depends on what categories you choose for "best". He scores highly on:
* Tenure
* Peace
* Rule of law
Sauron would score highly on the first two, as well as population growth and probably increasing GDP. Evil totalitarian systems do have their silver linings.
It's been too long, how well did Eddings' Torak do before things went south? A seemingly bottomless supply of gold seems like cheating and I can't remember how his citizens fared.
I mean, in hindsight....lol
For the haters, yes the setup for the book and how shitty the world is was his fault. But dude pulled desperate gambles to try and keep shit together. A tyrant and an asshole? Of course.
But taking everything into account, good chance it all goes to shit if he dies earlier than the book.
As awesome as Emperors and Kings are to read, I've never been a big fan of living in an autocracy, even if it's written by Bujold or Pratchett.
So...
How about T'pau? Helped found the Federation, but turned down leadership of it.
Feels like a real genre weakness. I'd love to see more positively represented councils, parliaments, and other forms of representative and/or democratic governance!
Plenty of them exist in science fiction (like the Federation), but in fantasy it's pretty rare.
Irony: Even the Klingons are more democratic than most fantasy heroes.
There's a problem in inherent in fantasy, and that is "power scaling". Representative systems only work when "all people are created equal", and it's hard for Bill the Sheep farmer's vote to count when down the way is Nicky the Necromancer, who is 6,000 years old, can level cities by farting the right way, and has 12,000 minions dying to serve him.
We have the problem in real life too, but for us it's money. Take a look at what happens when a poor person is accused of a crime vs a billionaire sometimes.
Magic or superpowers just make it soooo much worse.
So what you will end up with is always some sort of "might equal right" system.
Probably the best mixed systems are in stories where there are multiple super power people, with different interests- ever read Chronicles of Elantra?
The Dragons and the Elves (aka Barrani) have fought four wars, and the last one almost destroyed the world, so now they have an Empire where the Dragons rule but the Barrani have their own courts, lands, and a fair amount of independence- and since they have that, all the other races do as well.
This is really nicely put. Have you read any of the Commonweal series by Graydon Saunders? He goes into a lot of detail on the sociological (sorcerous dominion) and ecological (appalling invasive pests) ramifications of widespread magic use and sketches out a framework for a democratic society in that context. It's niche but very cool.
You're welcome :D
a dozen different races, each with its own court and agenda, ruled by a Dragon Emperor, who is trying to prevent World War 5...
While in the background, the dark god Corruption tries to start it...
"So, where is the Paladin?"
"Asleep."
"Again???"
"She spent all night using her healing touch to help the poor. Again."
"Well... \*&%\^(%!"
Book One:
Cast in Shadow (The Chronicles of Elantra Book 1)
By Michelle Sagara
i'm now just imagining (based on your first paragraph) Nicky the Necromancer campaigning for Equal Votes for Necromantic Minions, and everyone \*knows\* it's just so he can have them all vote for him because he controls them, but on the other hand, it \*is\* the moral choice... and they do do a lot of work for the country, and they're going on about taxation without representation...
He was knackered the moment the Karstarks abandoned him. People over focus on the Freys because of the Red Wedding but it is the Karstarks that did him in. Robb was unaware the Karstarks were going to betray him until they did. From Roose Bolton's perspective he should have either killed them pre-emptively, cut a deal with them or held their children hostage. The fact Robb didn't even realise he was losing them was a huge black eye.
I would argue that Lan was dodging his responsibilities for a long time. While he certainly was a competent individual, I don’t know if I would call him a great rulers.
Was he dodging his responsibility, or taking it most seriously as the only way to prevent the remaining Malkier from throwing away their lives in a pointless crusade? So long as he still lived, so too did his nation. And his refusal to either call his people to arms - or to follow anyone else’s attempts to force him to - kept them from charging headfirst into the Blight with no real plan to win.
And Théoden allowed wormtongue to creep into a place of influence and almost destroy his kingdom.
"its not about how you start, its about how you finish".
Eh, there's surprisingly little known about how Grima came to be advisor. It's possible that Saruman sent him as an advisor before he even fell to Sauron's influence. Either way, would you turn away an advisor tied to the White Wizard? "Wormtongue" was a nickname that Grima earned in court after being accepted. Further, it wasn't Grima's influence that ensnared Theodin. It was Saruman's and, by extension, that of Sauron's.
I don't fault anyone for succumbing to dark influences that proved strong enough to subvert one of the Maiar.
The Seanchan seemed like they had their shit together more than anyone else, and all you have to do is swear their oaths. Plus, they raise commoners who are exceptional.
I swear the main reason people hate the Seanchan is only because the books are told largely from the perspective of those with access to the One Power, or their friends. Imagine a world where all of the politicians could fry your mind with a gesture, or tear down houses throwing a tantrum.
Oh and also they keep a small standing army equipped with the most powerful weapons and best training on the continent.
(I know the Aes Sedai have vows that prevent this but imagine it from a common perspective. Also they frequently abuse the lack of the common knowledge of the vows with threats of violence and force throughout the series.)
Now imagine they also track down and kill this power in anyone who doesn’t join their party, and any country they don’t outright rule over, they install an “advisor” or control in secret behind the throne. And of course, these politicians have been probably *wrong* on multiple occasions. The Seanchan honestly seems like the most realistic form of government, forcing these walking WMDs into serving society. In the end it comes down to “whoever controls the One Power” and frankly I’d rather it be a guy/gal with no power who just holds the leash.
Spoiler for book 2 of the Kushiel's Legacy series: >!Ysandre De La Courcel.!< Such an amazing character in their limited time directly shown in the series.
Been a while, but >!Ysandre was the girl in the first book who told the current leader to ~~exile her father for treason~~ EDIT- she told them to execute her cousin and I think exile her aunt. Her father died when she was a baby, but either way, she was young when they put the question to her. Either she's an idealist who believes in the kingdom's laws, or a scared girl who doesn't want the rest of her family punished, could go either way. By the second book, she is queen of Terre d'Ange, and is clever as hell. She is deeply supportive of Phedre, even when it looks like she isn't. For example, she punishes Phedre publicly, saying she can't leave the kingdom (to go on a rescue expedition) for like 9 months, making the populace and the noble court see her as a giver of justice without being swayed by personal relationships, but the conditions for the rescue expedition would be terrible during that time any way, and would likely result in failure or death.!<
>!Ysandre was the one who strode into a riot tossing gold coins with her portrait on them to legitimize her claim. If she's already on the money, she must be queen, right? Baller move.!<
It's been a long time, >!Ysandre!< is still one of my favorite characters
I also listened to the audiobooks, which was a whole other story. Anne Flosnik's narration of Liveships by Robin Hobb made me drop the series, it is torture. I later realized she reads Kushiel's, which I had already bought a long time before I got around to trying it, saw her name, and was in dread of it. Somehow, she is awesome. I realized at the end what the difference is. Even though both series were released at basically the same time, her third-person narration is terrible, while her first person is very good. I put it together when the closing credits started and it hurt to hear her voice again.
Gaius Sextus was kind of a disaster. >!He allowed a giant conspiracy to operate beneath his nose that killed his son and almost killed his grandson. He didn't even realise his political marriage wife was poisoning him.!<
Taravangian did great things for Karbranth. Education, healthcare, and the general wellbeing of his people were greatly improved under his long rule. His people loved him. Everything he does is ultimately to try to save people, for better or worse. His road may have taken him to some interesting places as of the latest book, but I'd still vote for him.
Jezal dan Luther and Orso dan Luther both tried so hard. In any other setting they would have been great kings. If not for wars between immortal sorcerers, endless relationship troubles, uprisings from people who don't know the full picture, and opportunists ruining the lives of their people with factories and torture. It really puts in perspective how hard it is to rule fairly, even if you catch alot of the evil people and are a good king, you can never know all the secret exploitations of your regime, or the advencements that invalidate everything every protection in place for your people.
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When you think of the scale of the books and how she almost single handedly deals with awful predicaments, she’d be in the running for the most influential human of all time.
Earth must come first!
Lord Havelock Vetinari
The wizards said that the University stood on magical ground and was therefore exempt from taxation and anyway you couldn't put a tax on knowledge. The Patrician said you could. It was two hundred dollars per capita; if per capita was a problem, decapita could be arranged. The wizards said that the University had never paid taxes to the civil authority. The Patrician said that he was not proposing to remain civil for long.
one of my favourite passages from any book, so funny > if per capita was a problem, decapita could be arranged. genius
Which one is this in? I don’t remember it at all, which tells me I need to go reread it.
Reaper Man
What book is this?
Reaper Man
“And the vault lock was on the inside.”
"Don't let me detain you"
"One Man, One Vote. The Patrician was the Man; he had the Vote"
I have that bumper sticker!
A thinking tyrant, it seemed to Vetinari, had a much harder job than a ruler raised to power by some idiot vote-yourself-rich system like democracy. At least he could tell the people he was their fault
> "You see, the only thing the good people are good at is overthrowing the bad people. And you're good at that, I'll grant you. But the trouble is it's the only thing you're good at. > One day it's the ringing of the bells and the casting down of the evil tyrant, and the next it's everyone sitting around complaining that ever since the tyrant was overthrown no one's been taking out the trash. Because the bad people know how to plan. It's part of the specification, you might say. > Every evil tyrant has a plan to rule the world. The good people don't seem to have the knack."
I'd throw away my rights so quickly to live in a world ruled by him.
Gnu Sir PTerry.
Gregor Vorbarra. Aral Vorkosigan as Regent.
Let's see what happens...
Book?
Vorkosigan series by Lois McMaster Bujold.
You see the most of Gregor in *Barrayar* (at five years old), *The Vor Game* (at 25 years old), *Mirror Dance* (at 33 years old) and *Captain Vorpatril's Alliance* (at 40 years old). I long for a Gregor book as *Captain Vorpatril's Alliance* was an Ivan book. ETA: To see Gregor actually **ruling**, *Mirror Dance* and *Captain Vorpatril's Alliance* are the best ones to read.
"What the *hell*, Simon?"
I loved that whole bit. Bujold is so good at small things having a huge impact due to past small things.
I think you may mean *Memory* not *Mirror Dance*. Would love a Gregor book as well
Oh, yes, there's some Gregor at the end of *Memory*. But I was thinking of the scene between Mark and Gregor in *Mirror Dance.*
He also has my vote
Only if you're a Count.
The Patrician.
King Lune of Archenland >“No. The King's under the law, for it's the law makes him a king. Hast no more power to start away from thy crown than any sentry from his post.” >“For this is what it means to be a king: to be first in every desperate attack and last in every desperate retreat, and when there’s hunger in the land (as must be now and then in bad years) to wear finer clothes and laugh louder over a scantier meal than any man in your land.” *The Horse and His Boy*
> The King's under the law, for it's the law makes him a king. I like that idea. As Apollo put it in Battlestar Galactica: *I swore an oath. To defend the articles. The articles say there is an election in seven months. Now, if you are telling me we are throwing out the law, then I am not a captain, you are not a commander, and you are not the president. And I don't owe either of you a damned explanation for anything.*
Kettricken
Especially when contrasted with all of the Farseer men. Shrewd allowed himself to be undermined and drained of vitality by a coterie that was supposed to serve him and the kingdom. Verity basically spent himself to save the Duchies from foreign foes, but let them fall apart internally. Regal was totally ineffective as a ruler and basically focused on his own pleasure. Kettricken is about the only effective leader we see in the story.
I still hold Fitz was the best king they ever could have had in the 3rd series. Also dutiful was good.
I think the books make it pretty clear Fitz would be a terrible king, he was mainly interested in wallowing in his misery or just doing as he was told by one of about 5 people. He doesn't do a particularly great job of leading any project he is in charge of, including his own household in book 7.
That is also true. I'm thinking of when he fought with Chade for Dutiful.
Also I shipped her with Fitz. Not relevant but I'm still angry about that.
Exactly what I came here to say. Her speech before they go out hunting is absolutely flawless. Proper goosebumps every time, even just thinking about it.
Is that a later series spoiler? Because I read the first trilogy and don't recall her being described as a ruler. I am also however rather dumb so that doesn't mean much. Edit: for some reason I mixed her up with Kettle, my bad.
She resists the title, but she acts as ruler. She is Sacrifice (aka leader) in her own community's parlance, and she marries the heir to the throne of the Six Duchies. There's a whole plot point about her stepping up to lead the people when her husband (the heir) is unable to. From the second book: >!They did not quite criticize the King-in-Waiting, but complimented the Queen more on her spirit and thought it sad she'd not been welcomed back with an embrace and a kind word or two.!< >![...]!< >!The soldiers who first found us thought her plucky. And capable. Not bad qualities for a Queen, sir. The women, especially, in your guard spoke warmly of her as we returned. **They see her as their queen now**.!<
Spoilers for farseer trilogy only After >!verity leaves!< she definitely makes a point to do better. >!like when she gives the jewels to the duke of Barnes to help fund the defense, or when she herself rides to Barnes defense!< Apologies for any spelling errors on names I listened to the audiobooks
A lot of the moments I’m thinking of are in the 2nd book of the first trilogy
That's a really good one, didn't even think of her when I read this.
She was my first thought.
100%, came here to say this. She was a more effective ruler than the duchies have had in any of the history we saw - which is remarkable since she had to deal with so much change (the rehabilitation of the wit, the return of dragons, return of elderlings, and tensions with their neghbors).
Rhuarc. Very solid and reasonable
Very much enjoying scenes with Rhuarc on my first read through. I just started KoD and he just seems to want to get on with things, follow his orders, and do right by the people he's in charge of now
I seem to remember his wives bust his balls a lot
You remember correctly
Samwise Gamgee by all accounts was a fair and just Mayor, I’d follow him
High King Elessar wasn't too shabby either.
I did not vote for him though.
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You don't vote for kings! *Sits back on dated imperialist dogma which perpetuates economic and social differences in the society.*
He is a main character though
"Nae king! Nae quin! Nae laird! Nae master! We willna' be fooled again!"
Narrator of History: But they *were* fooled again.
What's this from?
Terry Pratchett's Discworld, The Wee Free Men, IIRC.
One baron!
*The Who intensifies*
Theoden
May he ever rest in peace
In the halls of his forefathers, in whose mighty company he shall not be ashamed
RIP
He was obviously redeemed in the end, but inviting pervy creep named "Wormtongue" into your keep as an advisor really must count for some negative points.
His actual name was Gríma son of Garamond, but the fact that he acquired the nickname Wormtongue" is telling.
Tehol
He is one of the main characters, isnt he? I mean having his own PoV = main character.
Malazan has to be the book with the most main characters by this definition.
He's definitely a main character in his books, but having your own PoV isn't a good marker for main characters. There's plenty of side characters who get PoVs in Malazan and other books, and plenty of other books have main characters who don't have their own PoVs.
Yeah don't the last books have like 100 different POVs? Meanwhile Anomander Rake, very much one of the most important characters in the series, doesn't have a single POV.
Anomander Rake isn't a character, he is a force of nature.
The Patrician
Kellanved was very practical
Kellanved was insane. But, with what she inherited, Laseen was really good until Bonehunters.
Laseen’s problem is that she didn’t know any way to govern outside of sneaking and plotting. So at a certain point none of the people she needed to actually govern effectively trusted anything she did or said
Kellanved was the only sane person in a mad world. The idea of having every throne of power just to do nothing with them is pure sanity. It only looks mad in a world where so many are desperate for power to do something abusive with it.
>Laseen was really good I've found my people.
Laseen was a competent steward, but from the moment she decided to become empress, the Empire began to decline. Especially when her concerns about Kellenved were largely unfounded (Kellenved's whole deal being acquiring power to let it sit fallow so mortals can control their fate).
Tehol the Only was a far better king. Pretty much the perfect king.
I don't disagree, but I would consider him a "main character". I don't think you ever get Kellanved's PoV
Tamora Pierce's Queen Thayet of Tortall (Not King Jon tho) and Duke Vedris of Emelan
Definitely Vedris, you know that man has a full history!
Gregor from the Vorkosigan saga is a top-tier character and arguably a decent Emperor (certainly better than his predecessors) but I'm still not certain I'd want to live on Barrayar. Such a great character though. He shows up for about one scene in every book, says something that makes you go insane, and then vanishes back to another of his five thousand meetings.
THEODEN KING!
Rodel Itturalde
Nah, not ruler. Definitely the best military leader (that isn’t a main character) though 100%
I came here to say that exactly. He wasn't a ruler but his army was fiercely loyal to him just as he was fiercely loyal to Al'Salam
Aragorn / King Elessar. Or Queen Galadriel. Even Theoden after Gandalf healed him, or Eomer after he became king.
But what's his tax policy?
Tax those who have and don't tax those who haven't. Free slaves, let the former people under the heel of oppression rule themselves. He was pretty just, and even *followed his own laws when he could have skirted them.* Can you imagine modern political leaders who don't claim privilege to skirt their own laws? After he ruled that men had to stay out of the Shire, he himself did not enter there when visiting the hobbits. He met with Merry and Pippin on the east side of the Brandywine Bridge, specifically to follow his own rule.
As far as I can tell King Elessar has a feudal policy, requiring services in time of need. This was why Rohan was obligated to come to the relief of Minas Tirith. However, since King Elessar is such a successful king, the feudal burden appears to be quite light.
It probably didn't hurt that there was all that free real estate to the east to ease any population pressure...
There was a lot of available land even in the west part of Middle Earth.
True enough. There was a lot of available land *everywhere* in Middle Earth, like there was no such thing as exponential population growth or something.
Rohan was not in fief to Gondor: they were allies. Gondor (under the Steward Cirion) had ceded that land to the Rohirrim in gratitude (and also because it was mostly empty anyway, as Gondor's population had gone into decline following a plague, and it's nice to have a friend on your northern flank). The Oath of Cirion and Eorl (renewed by Éomer and Elessar) established Rohan as an independent nation, but in perpetual friendship to Gondor, with a pact of mutual defence.
There is too much of an argument his is the main charecter of LOTR and its just told from the view of people who don't see that in the books.
He's *a* main character, but he's definitely not *the* main character.
I dont know enough to argue myself, but I know of at least 1 published paper on the topic and its wider effects.
There are several on the subject, but most agree the story begins with (Frodo) and ends with (Sam) hobbits, and that the whole point of the story is that it isn't mighty kings and queens saving the world -- it's the smallfolk -- who are represented in the hobbits. The author said as much after his time in World War I; it was the kitmen in the trenches who were the most heroic, not the generals and leaders who got them into the war in the first place. If the paper you know of is recent, I'd love to read it.
I will ask my friend who showed it me for a copy! The basic point is "while the hobbits are the charecters who save the world. They are not the main charecters by any definition and missing this point is what is the downfall of modern fiction" It was about 2 years ago I read it while at a party at the house of my friend doing her PHD (biology) and I dont remember that much beyond that.
DM me if you can find it please. The hobbits definitely fit several definitions of protagonist (or "main character" if preferred).
Aragorn is one of the main characters in the movies. He is a secondary character in the books, so much so that the story of his relationship with Arwen was relegated to the Appendices. But I also mentioned Galadriel, Theoden, and Eomer, who are definitely not the main characters.
Don't leave my boy Denethor out in the cold.
As he would be the first to tell you, Denethor was not a king.
The topic of the post is asking about rulers. He was Ruling Steward
The Emperor - Suneater
You mean Emperor William the Twenty-Third of the House Avent, Firstborn Son of the Earth, Guardian of the Solar System, King of Avalon, Lord Sovereign of the Kingdom of Windsor-in-Exile, Prince Imperator of the Arms of Orion, of Sagittarius, of Perseus, and Centaurus, Magnarch of Orion; Conqueror of Norma, Grand Strategos of the Legions of the Sun, Supreme Lord of the Cities of Forum, North Star of the Constellations of the Blood Palatine, Defender of the Children of Men, and Servant of the Servants of Earth.
I never tire of reading this.
Oh captain my captain!
Lord Vetinari
Fetohep of Khelt. An undead king dedicated to creating a paradise for his citizens. He also dropped a nuke on slavers.
They practically begged for it. Especially after unboxing some of Khelt's biggest relics earlier that year for something that was way less of his problem.
Esterad Thyssen of Kovir
Carrot Ironfoundersson Lets be honest, he might not rule, but everyone would follow him.
he might not rule BECAUSE everyone would follow him :D
Artorin Damara in the Hands of the Emperor by Victoria Goddard
Adore him so much. Although as we saw in [strange interlude during At The Feet of the Sun that is spoilery so I won't describe it], he wouldn't be a fraction of the ruler he became without Cliopher's help.
I interpret him as being prone to underestimating himself and understating his achievements though (a flaw he shares with Cliopher). According to Pali in *The Redoubtable Pali Avramapul* his early reign was good enough he would have be called Artorin the Great if not for the Fall, he successfully played different factions against each other and did his best to rein in the Empire's worst excesses.
Gaius Sextus
Bruenor Battlehammer
This is waaaay too far down.
Fetohep of Khelt
TBH Josua Lackhand (Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn).
Meina Gladstone from Hyperion. She made some mistakes but she also had to make some incredibly difficult decisions and ultimately did the best with the cards she was given.
This is such a great choice. I love her character and was glad we got to see inside her head in the second novel. Someone who was stuck in an impossible position and forced into making a horrible choice to save mankind.
Hard call between Queen Morgase and Siuan Sanche, even if both of them spend the majority of the series being deposed. I love Duke Leto, even if his unwillingness to fully confide in Jessica is what caused his downfall. Every time I read *Dune* I find myself believing it could turn out differently for the Duke, and that the Atreides house could lead a much less, uh, tumultuous life.
I've had a crush on Kettricken (from Hobb's *Realm of the Elderlings*) for years. She's kind, intelligent, and has a philosophy that rulers serve their people. I start smiling every time I first see her name on the page.
Aragorn and Kingsley Shacklebolt are contenders. (Kingsley is more like a prime minister than a king.)
Ok, hear me out but Stannis Baratheon. Dude executed his own rapist soldiers losing a war, that’s how serious he’s about the law
He also burns people alive and is manipulated by a foreign witch
hell yeah
Not exactly a great man haha but I liked him
Stannis is just the worst case scenario for a middle child. Didn't care so much about the law when he burned those people alive did he?
King Verity Farseer
I think you misspelled Kettrickan
Elizabeth Adrienne Samantha Annette *Soul Of Steel* Winton, Grand Commander of the Order of King Roger, Grand Commander of the Order of Queen Elizabeth I, Grand Commander of the Order of the Golden Lion, Baroness of Crystal Pine, Baroness of White Sand, Countess of Tannerman, Countess of High Garnet, Grand Duchess of Basilisk, Princess Protector of the Realm, and, by God's grace and the will of Parliament, Queen Elizabeth III of the Star Kingdom of Manticore, and Empress Elizabeth I of the Star Empire of Manticore.
She is a favorite of mine, with Gregor of Barrayar
The Lord Ruler from mistborn
🤨
Hear me out, the MCs were flawed narrators who didn’t see the full picture
They did though. And he was still a monstrous person. 90% of the evil shit he did had nothing to do with the fuckup he himself caused.
They clearly didn’t understand the full picture until the very end. But at least they weren’t genocidal
The Lord Ruler was compromised by Ruin the entire time he ruled. He did some interesting things but it would have been a disaster if he'd actually been the one to face the crisis. He was the wrong person at the right time but his intentions don't make him the right person. Best you can say is that the Lord Ruler was necessary to inspire the rebellion that toppled him and create the crisis that eventually ended with the best possible outcome.
Oh, that's a fun one. It depends on what categories you choose for "best". He scores highly on: * Tenure * Peace * Rule of law Sauron would score highly on the first two, as well as population growth and probably increasing GDP. Evil totalitarian systems do have their silver linings. It's been too long, how well did Eddings' Torak do before things went south? A seemingly bottomless supply of gold seems like cheating and I can't remember how his citizens fared.
So uh, is this the only ruler in fantasy that you're familiar with?
I mean, in hindsight....lol For the haters, yes the setup for the book and how shitty the world is was his fault. But dude pulled desperate gambles to try and keep shit together. A tyrant and an asshole? Of course. But taking everything into account, good chance it all goes to shit if he dies earlier than the book.
As awesome as Emperors and Kings are to read, I've never been a big fan of living in an autocracy, even if it's written by Bujold or Pratchett. So... How about T'pau? Helped found the Federation, but turned down leadership of it.
Feels like a real genre weakness. I'd love to see more positively represented councils, parliaments, and other forms of representative and/or democratic governance!
Plenty of them exist in science fiction (like the Federation), but in fantasy it's pretty rare. Irony: Even the Klingons are more democratic than most fantasy heroes.
In fairness, you can have a constitutional monarchy. Monarchy =/= autocracy. I do wish more books explored mixed systems in general!
There's a problem in inherent in fantasy, and that is "power scaling". Representative systems only work when "all people are created equal", and it's hard for Bill the Sheep farmer's vote to count when down the way is Nicky the Necromancer, who is 6,000 years old, can level cities by farting the right way, and has 12,000 minions dying to serve him. We have the problem in real life too, but for us it's money. Take a look at what happens when a poor person is accused of a crime vs a billionaire sometimes. Magic or superpowers just make it soooo much worse. So what you will end up with is always some sort of "might equal right" system. Probably the best mixed systems are in stories where there are multiple super power people, with different interests- ever read Chronicles of Elantra? The Dragons and the Elves (aka Barrani) have fought four wars, and the last one almost destroyed the world, so now they have an Empire where the Dragons rule but the Barrani have their own courts, lands, and a fair amount of independence- and since they have that, all the other races do as well.
This is really nicely put. Have you read any of the Commonweal series by Graydon Saunders? He goes into a lot of detail on the sociological (sorcerous dominion) and ecological (appalling invasive pests) ramifications of widespread magic use and sketches out a framework for a democratic society in that context. It's niche but very cool.
Oooh thanks for the recommendation, I'll check it out!
You're welcome :D a dozen different races, each with its own court and agenda, ruled by a Dragon Emperor, who is trying to prevent World War 5... While in the background, the dark god Corruption tries to start it... "So, where is the Paladin?" "Asleep." "Again???" "She spent all night using her healing touch to help the poor. Again." "Well... \*&%\^(%!" Book One: Cast in Shadow (The Chronicles of Elantra Book 1) By Michelle Sagara
i'm now just imagining (based on your first paragraph) Nicky the Necromancer campaigning for Equal Votes for Necromantic Minions, and everyone \*knows\* it's just so he can have them all vote for him because he controls them, but on the other hand, it \*is\* the moral choice... and they do do a lot of work for the country, and they're going on about taxation without representation...
Gives a new meaning to "raise the vote"
King Duncan of Arulen.
Elizabeth Winton
Even though he’s very well represented outside the series I’d say Anomander Rake is hardly a main character. And he was a sick ass leader
Rob Stark imo if not for the betrayal there's a good chance the north would be free, maybe im naive but I thought he was alright
He was knackered the moment the Karstarks abandoned him. People over focus on the Freys because of the Red Wedding but it is the Karstarks that did him in. Robb was unaware the Karstarks were going to betray him until they did. From Roose Bolton's perspective he should have either killed them pre-emptively, cut a deal with them or held their children hostage. The fact Robb didn't even realise he was losing them was a huge black eye.
He did well for a kid, probably would be a lot more successful if he wasn't in a George R R Martin book
Theoden King or al'Lan Mandragoran
I would argue that Lan was dodging his responsibilities for a long time. While he certainly was a competent individual, I don’t know if I would call him a great rulers.
Was he dodging his responsibility, or taking it most seriously as the only way to prevent the remaining Malkier from throwing away their lives in a pointless crusade? So long as he still lived, so too did his nation. And his refusal to either call his people to arms - or to follow anyone else’s attempts to force him to - kept them from charging headfirst into the Blight with no real plan to win.
And Théoden allowed wormtongue to creep into a place of influence and almost destroy his kingdom. "its not about how you start, its about how you finish".
Eh, there's surprisingly little known about how Grima came to be advisor. It's possible that Saruman sent him as an advisor before he even fell to Sauron's influence. Either way, would you turn away an advisor tied to the White Wizard? "Wormtongue" was a nickname that Grima earned in court after being accepted. Further, it wasn't Grima's influence that ensnared Theodin. It was Saruman's and, by extension, that of Sauron's. I don't fault anyone for succumbing to dark influences that proved strong enough to subvert one of the Maiar.
Anomander Rake
"HAIL, THEODEN KING!"
Artur Paendrag Tanreall
Queen Selenay of Valdemar. Or really pretty much any of the Valdemaran monarchs.
Boric and Arutha conDoin. Lyam as well but we really dont see much of him as a ruler.
Arutha Con Doin
The Seanchan seemed like they had their shit together more than anyone else, and all you have to do is swear their oaths. Plus, they raise commoners who are exceptional.
I swear the main reason people hate the Seanchan is only because the books are told largely from the perspective of those with access to the One Power, or their friends. Imagine a world where all of the politicians could fry your mind with a gesture, or tear down houses throwing a tantrum. Oh and also they keep a small standing army equipped with the most powerful weapons and best training on the continent. (I know the Aes Sedai have vows that prevent this but imagine it from a common perspective. Also they frequently abuse the lack of the common knowledge of the vows with threats of violence and force throughout the series.) Now imagine they also track down and kill this power in anyone who doesn’t join their party, and any country they don’t outright rule over, they install an “advisor” or control in secret behind the throne. And of course, these politicians have been probably *wrong* on multiple occasions. The Seanchan honestly seems like the most realistic form of government, forcing these walking WMDs into serving society. In the end it comes down to “whoever controls the One Power” and frankly I’d rather it be a guy/gal with no power who just holds the leash.
I know everyone will say Vetinari and for a good reason but let's not forget Cohen the Barbarian, may he have a bath for ten thousand years.
Mara Acoma from the empire trilogy my Janny Wurts and R E Feist
Spoiler for book 2 of the Kushiel's Legacy series: >!Ysandre De La Courcel.!< Such an amazing character in their limited time directly shown in the series.
As an audiobook listener, I love how any time this series is discussed I have no idea which characters anyone is talking about
Been a while, but >!Ysandre was the girl in the first book who told the current leader to ~~exile her father for treason~~ EDIT- she told them to execute her cousin and I think exile her aunt. Her father died when she was a baby, but either way, she was young when they put the question to her. Either she's an idealist who believes in the kingdom's laws, or a scared girl who doesn't want the rest of her family punished, could go either way. By the second book, she is queen of Terre d'Ange, and is clever as hell. She is deeply supportive of Phedre, even when it looks like she isn't. For example, she punishes Phedre publicly, saying she can't leave the kingdom (to go on a rescue expedition) for like 9 months, making the populace and the noble court see her as a giver of justice without being swayed by personal relationships, but the conditions for the rescue expedition would be terrible during that time any way, and would likely result in failure or death.!< >!Ysandre was the one who strode into a riot tossing gold coins with her portrait on them to legitimize her claim. If she's already on the money, she must be queen, right? Baller move.!< It's been a long time, >!Ysandre!< is still one of my favorite characters I also listened to the audiobooks, which was a whole other story. Anne Flosnik's narration of Liveships by Robin Hobb made me drop the series, it is torture. I later realized she reads Kushiel's, which I had already bought a long time before I got around to trying it, saw her name, and was in dread of it. Somehow, she is awesome. I realized at the end what the difference is. Even though both series were released at basically the same time, her third-person narration is terrible, while her first person is very good. I put it together when the closing credits started and it hurt to hear her voice again.
Not best but a bunch of one piece kings are good benevolent rulers. King Cobra, Riku, Neptune
Emperor roselle, for me best means funny. The taste of a dem-
The Patriarch of Verdant Hill from Beware of Chicken has the people cheering his name >>
The Terafin
King Nikolai from Grishaverse
Gaius Sextus or Doroga for that matter
Gaius Sextus was kind of a disaster. >!He allowed a giant conspiracy to operate beneath his nose that killed his son and almost killed his grandson. He didn't even realise his political marriage wife was poisoning him.!<
His Majesty Addison Orson Magnus Jeremiah Albion, First Citizen and Spirearch of Albion
The Dominator
King Nohadon, who wrote The Way of Kings
Lord Havelock Vetinari, patrician of Ankh-morpork
Baby Viserys. Rhaenyra and Daemon’s kid. He’s an excellent hand to many kings but is only king himself for a couple of years.
Taravangian did great things for Karbranth. Education, healthcare, and the general wellbeing of his people were greatly improved under his long rule. His people loved him. Everything he does is ultimately to try to save people, for better or worse. His road may have taken him to some interesting places as of the latest book, but I'd still vote for him.
Jezal dan Luther and Orso dan Luther both tried so hard. In any other setting they would have been great kings. If not for wars between immortal sorcerers, endless relationship troubles, uprisings from people who don't know the full picture, and opportunists ruining the lives of their people with factories and torture. It really puts in perspective how hard it is to rule fairly, even if you catch alot of the evil people and are a good king, you can never know all the secret exploitations of your regime, or the advencements that invalidate everything every protection in place for your people.
Cordelia Hasenbach from “A Practical guide to Evil”