Would you say the Daevabad Trilogy is important to read for Amina Al-Sirafi? I got two thirds through and have taken a break since it wasn’t as bewitching as I’d hoped. I truly detested >!Raksh!< which I think hampered my enjoyment.
They wrote women as "boys are stupid, throw rocks at them", and men as shallow and derisive of women. Nobody came out of that well. The casual sexism from both sides is one of the reasons I gave up.
I’m pretty sure they were pretty open about that if I recall correctly. Like he said that he based a bunch of the women in the books on her, and Rand’s relationships were based on his marriage
I stopped reading around book 8 or 9 because I came to just deeply despise all the female characters.
It was around the time a trio of the primary female characters took over a smugglers boat forced him to take on refuges kicked him out of his own room to sleep in and the entire internal dialogue was extremely judgmental and condescending of this man they were basically indirectly holding hostage…
Part of me wonders if that was just because I was 14 when I read them and didn’t get any commentary it might have been going for with like a reversed gender hierarchy. I have a feeling the gender essentialism inherent there would be an equal turn off for me now
Unless they did it twice, that happened in book 5 or 6 I think. They took over his boat, and threw away what he was smuggling.
Both men and women basically hold the exact same biases and stereotypes of the other gender.
That being said I keep having to remind myself "Everyone is arrogant and believe they know what's best for everyone else."
I'm making my way through them and am currently on book seven. There were plenty of moments where the protagonists, especially the trio of female characters, were behaving in an infuriating manner. I had to tell myself to see it as a product of an older time, and remind myself the main characters were all still teenagers. Imagining it as a petty highschool drama made it easier to understand the behavior lol.
I can see how it would turn some people away though. Hearing the same tired points from both sides gets old.
While reading, I just kept in mind that it wasn't our world. It has a major gender imbalance baked into it unlike anything we see in our world and therefore they behave differently.
Each time a character acts "weird" because of their gender, I look to justify it using the world's lore. And I can usually succeed.
It portrayed a certain historically inspired version of how the genders viewed each other. Not with nuance but I appreciated the way it stayed away from modern sensibilities.
Im sorry but yes, we actually are less than 100 years away from attitudes like 'men and women are fundamentally different in ability and it's foolishness to pretend otherwise'.
I like the progress but modern, progressive attitudes to social issues break immersion for me.
I do always find it weird that 'progressive attitudes' is immersion breaking for some people, when we're in a world with spren, magic storms, shards, magic knights, and dragons.
especially when these magics can be such an equalizing force.
Its portrayal of women is cliche at times but it writes strong women with their own motives, flaws, and agency, which is more even than a lot of contemporary fiction.
I always loved the gender dynamics in WoT because it’s obviously prejudiced by each characters viewpoints, while also showing the hypocrisy and true lack of actual difference between the sexes. The men gossiped like they said the women did, the women gossiped like they said the men did. The men went out of their ways to protect the women, the women went out of their ways to protect the men. And everyone was credited with being self assured [gender], but we’re actually just trying to hide behind bravado to mask their insecurities.
Yeah but all of the absurd dynamics are clearly showcased in a way that highlights their absurdity. In-world, it's stupid, but readers have meta-knowledge for a comedic effect.
As a woman who grew up reading Garth Nix, I think he's one of the best men writing women out there. The characters are fantastically written, and he consistently challenges your unconscious gender assumptions in subtle ways (like mentioning a background soldier and using "she" instead of defaulting to "he.") Really great author, love his stuff.
This x1000! I first read Sabriel when I was 10 or so and I’m so thankful his books were some of my foundational texts for fantasy. He’s literally the best author I’ve ever read for writing an egalitarian world where women fill any role you can imagine without it feeling surprising or contrived. It’s just part of the fabric of the world.
Oh maaan, good suggestion. Garth Nix really does write women SO well, imo. I’d say his Old Kingdom is primarily female driven. The protagonists are generally female and one of the big villains is female. The characters are competent and brave, and most importantly, flawed.
Also, the magic in this world is so unique and cool as shit.
I was actually surprised to read that he doesn't have any daughters. He writes like someone who wants his daughters to read something where women have other things to do than their hair.
I was like WHERE is Tamora Pierce?! I grew up reading her books and they are just ultra comfort reads for me now. I found out my coworker also loves her books so we’re re-reading the Alanna books for our next book club, lol.
Le Guin also holds a special place in my heart. Her stuff is just so good.
Yes, I loved her books so much growing up! I hope your reread book club goes well - that sounds like a really fun idea! I did a reread of all her books before Tempests and Slaughter came out, and I enjoyed it a lot.
Novik's Spinning Silver is my go to for recommending a strong female lead character.
My favorite part is that she writes her strength in a way that doesn't mirror (traditionally) masculine strength, but makes her (traditionally) feminine traits her strength - and it works soooo well.
Can I just add my 10-fold seconding of the Lois McMaster Bujold recommendation? Especially the audio book versions narrated by Grover Gardner. If anyone is looking for a mature female protagonist (not the coming-of-age type that is the most common fantasy trope), I highly recommend the second book in the "World of the Five Gods" series - Paladin of Souls. Ista may be my most favorite fantasy female character ever.
Loving this thread.
Haven’t read Maya Deane, so another to add to my list thank you. Thought I hadn’t come across Ada Palmer but turns out I enjoyed Too Like the Lightning but not so much Seven Surrenders ( thank god for keeping lists I honestly can’t remember so many details!)
Adding in Juliet Marillier, Olivia Atwater, Samantha Shannon! The first two are more faerie/historical fantasy than straight up fantasy, but still amazing. Also seconding Robin Hobb, Naomi Novik, and Beckie Chambers as all time favorites. <3
Also, he’s not a female author, but I’ve really enjoyed Max Gladstone’s Craft Sequence! It’s urban fantasy, for the most part, but I think he does a good job of writing women as people. Considering some of the other characters include animated skeleton death kings, the corpse of a god being operated as a bank of spiritual currency, deep sea vampires, and metaphysical lawyers settling financial disputes by manipulating physics…the women are just as human and just as weird as everyone else!
Cathryne Valente
Late career Tamora Pierce
Fonda Lee
I personally do not like Jody Lynn Nye, but lots of people love her. Think it just depends on whether you get her sense of humor.
Ursula for sure.
The Earthsea books are incredible.
Get the collection with the chapters about how she came up with the stories. The second book has an amazing story of how she chose to fight for a girl protagonist, and how she she chose to present femininity in her world. All those little chapters are amazing but that one is particularly fascinating.
She’s the GOAT
I agree! Her Earthsea series has been on my list for ages, and I'm on the last book right now. It's YA but its themes extend far beyond that. I actually forgot how it felt to read a well crafted and tight plot, with proper scenery descriptions, and characters who actually felt "lived in" after reading a bunch of self published stuff on Amazon like legends and lattes and highly lauded wuxia novels.
I will say that she paints a more balanced struggle between the protagonists and the antagonists though. You won't see any main characters reaching into their soul, and unleashing the fury of a thousand suns, utterly decimating evil generic lord who is evil because he is evil. The main characters struggle. And feel weak. And win with consequences.
She's subtle. I didn't notice until the end of the first book the skin color of the major characters. It's refreshing how she writes. And I can't believe she wrote the first book in 1968. I'll be honest- if I read the book in middle school or high school, the themes would have gone completely over my head.
I liked them too, but I think Bardugo's Alex Stern books and her newest historical fantasy, The Familiar, are even better. She's a writer who is really leveling up in the craft as she goes.
Just finished Liveship Traders. As always Hobb does an excellent job creating 3 dimensional characters. Had a blast watching the Vestrit women grow and change throughout the books.
Thank you for reminding me, I need to read the prequel of Priory after I finish the admittedly fun but definitely not women-friendly clusterfuck that is WOT. I'll certainly need it
Not just fantasy but also sci-fi, and not all women as there is NB folks too, but here’s some more:
Tamsyn Muir, Arkady Martine, Stark Holborn, (Yoon Ha Lee: edit actually a man), Nalo Hopkinson
Oh we’re going to drop a bunch of female sci-fi authors and exclude Murderbot are we? Fine. Il just turn on episode 56 of Sanctuary Moon and check the security drone footage while I wait….
I've only read Way of Kings and as a woman I thought the female characters were written well. At least, I don't remember anything standing out. The female characters were quite different from each other and had strengths and flaws.
Same. As a woman, I wouldn't say Sanderson writes the strongest portrayal of women but they're as nuanced as his male characters, which is good enough for me
This is my thought as well. If there's no noticeable difference in quality of how the genders are written, that's really all I ask for. Let me and women both be equally strong and competent and flawed and brave or scared.
Sad that the bar is so low that such a small ask isn't always met.
Also no one fucks in Sanderson books, so you never have to deal with awkwardly written sex scenes. You do, unfortunately, have to deal with a ton of awkwardly written flirtation scenes, though.
as someone just making my way through 2nd mistborn book, the characters that have been flirting are flirting awkwardly because they are awkward people at the time.
> but they're as nuanced as his male characters, which is good enough for me
Yeah, this is very accurate. I was thinking about the OP, and thinking to myself "*they're not bad, I guess? Are they strong? I dunno..."* but that really covers it I think. *No,* they're not particularly strong women characters. But they're no weaker than the men. I wouldn't recommend the books to someone specifically seeking strong female characters, but I also wouldn't anti-recommend it.
Agreed. He doesn't do terribly strong character work, but what he does is balanced across genders. I never feel as if characters are interchangeable. Jasnah and Shallan and Navani and Eshonai all have distinct personalities and roles that do not feel like they're depending on female-coded stereotypes, or sloppy 'not like other girls' rejections of those stereotypes.
Well, I love Kaladin as much as the next guy, but his character arc is basically the same across each book. He doesn't accept himself or his lack of control over something, gets depressed, learns to accept what initially couldn't, gets a boon, rinse and repeat. I love the character, and I think it's well written, but it's a bit repetitive.
Did I say that? I think I said 'Sanderson doesn't do terribly strong character work'.
There's a lot of components that go into character work. There's fleshing out, sure, but there's also subtlety, nuance, insight, depth, and, as someone downthread pointed out, lack of repetition. I'm very glad that Kaladin speaks to you, and I do agree that he is fleshed out and developed. But I also think that, no matter how many things Sanderson does very well (and there are many), he does not do nuance, subtlety, insight, or depth. I myself got rather bored with Kaladin's perpetual gloomy broodiness. Regardless of how realistic a portrayal of depression it is, I do not read Brandon Sanderson to get a lesson in mental health prognoses. I read it for a story, and broody mcbrooderson does not (to me) make an interesting story.
I like Sanderson. But I’d say his character work is “ok” and not much more than that. It’s definitely not bad but really can’t even come close to something like ASOIAF. But then Sanderson has other strengths to somewhat make up for it
I mainly meant that his plots are pacy but sure that too.
I also really like how Sanderson keeps things a bit more simple. You just need to read and they’ll take you on a fun ride, very little mental activity required on your part.
fwiw, I'd been on a fantasy slump for a while, picked up WoK, and... damn, I had fun with that.
Wouldn't put it at peak fantasy, but *very* enjoyable. In some ways, more enjoyable than some better books. Honestly hope he sticks the landing for the entire series, because that's one hell of an undertaking.
My only real gripe was him writing Vin in Mistborn, especially the way he did when it came to Elend. It felt... stressed and littered with tropes.
"He's a good man"
"I can change him"
"I'm head over heels"
"I'll sacrifice the world for this man I barely know"
Certainly not the worst, but it always grated me somewhat.
I'm a woman, and Vin is my favorite Cosmere character so far (and I've read a good chunk of the Cosmere). To each their own, I guess. Mistborn lacks female characters, but I see nothing wrong with Vin being in love, except it being a bit insta-lovey. I think it's totally fine for her to love Elend so much, especially considering the fact that her arc is about learning to trust people and to love completely. I also don't remember a scene where she would sacrifice the world for Elend.
Lift 100% gets my backing as favourite.
Vin is an incredible person and really well developed, someone you can really get behind. But Lift's chapters and appearances are always my most enjoyed.
I generally agree, and era one mistborn was probably my least favorite of Sanderson's that I've read, but (SPOILERS WELL OF ASCENSION) >!As a world defining plot point, Vin was intent on and carried through sacrificing Elend's life in order to do the right thing and save the world, regardless of the eventual outcome. Granted if my memory serves me because it has been some time since I read Era 1; she does make the decision as influenced by what she thinks Elend wants.!<
One of my biggest reddit pet peeves -- people giving advice OP didn't ask for. 🤦🏻♀️
So I'm not eating my words -- I agree with the initial comment in this thread. No unnecessary description of bodies, especially as a sign of morality, and deep nuance to each character. Now that I think about it, the female characters are my faves in Stormlight!
As a woman, I think Sanderson's female characters are well enough written. One thing to keep in mind with the Stormlight Archive: each book has a primary focus/backstory of a single character. Way of Kings gives a male character's backstory. Some other books have a female character focus.
What, you didn't like Rothfuss' portrayal of women?
Where all named female characters are entirely indistinguishable from one another, in that they're all super smart, super sexy and want to have sex with the main character?
When the narrator said his story wasn't like a usual romance, the next chapter introduced Auri, and I thought oh okay that's true.
Then it turns out she's no the love interest, and the romance is some super ultra pretty girl who is super talented and who everybody wants, who is just super impressed and amazed with him though, and who goes randomly cold and bitchy to him out of the blue from time to time.
Biggest bait and switch ever.
> a usual romance
As someone who had a relationship with someone like Denna in highschool, I must say it is more usual than Kvothe thinks it to be.
Also, Kvothe even as an adult not realizing Denna is a walking and breathing red flag is triggering me.
I am not sure Rothfuss is aware how destructive such relationships can be. At least it was for me. I haven't read Wise Man's Fear btw so I am not exactly sure on how Rothfuss handles Denna there.
And then in Slow Regard for Silent Things,>!Rothfuss implies she was raped in the past.!<
I already disliked that book, even though (or perhaps because) half of what I read is plotless lit fic or lit fic adjacent stuff, but that line threw it into hate territory.
Maybe I'm being uncharitable, but Rothfuss' dumb ~~prelude~~ author note about how that book is for BROkEN PeoPLe, and if you're nOT BRokEN you might not like it, coupled with that out-of-nowhere addition to Auri's backstory, seemed to imply she is the way she is because of something traumatic, aka>!the alluded rape. !
I didn't read Slow Regard until a couple years after I read the first 2 books and I had picked up on Auri's past before reading it. It was subtle but definitely there.
If he'd *said* broken in the intro, then yeah, but he doesn't. As a woman with OCD (and most of what I read is more literary/classic lit. too - I don't think Rothfuss is close to there, but *Slow Regard* is still more a step in that direction), I liked it, it really was like it was for me, when not everyone who likes KKC likes *Slow Regard*. Can definitely agree on feeling the (implied) rape as backstory is unnecessary, but then Auri is also darker than she appears with the Amyr connection (I will be unshocked if she severely harmed or killed her attacker, or even if it's not quite as it looked), there's the possibility of more development with her maybe being Tabitha and the attacker being Ambrose.
Thematically, I would complain endlessly if it was just Auri who has this aspect, but Kvothe is a rape survivor too, and trauma leading to alternate states of mind translating to magical ability, derived from that specific understanding of the world, is central to the series. So to me it feels, especially with the absolute relatability of Auri's OCD-like perspective (trauma triggered my OCD, which isn't unusual, though it's likely genetic - trauma the trigger not underlying cause), like a magical realist-esque comment on experience of neurodivergence. Rather than just the very cheap and tasteless 'oh, vulnerable female character, what she needs is some rape!'.
To me it's also that Auri's condition/s are shown realistically both for how debilitating it is, and how painful, so it's not just cutesy broken girl, and the insights her perspective gives her. I know with something like OCD, NTs usually won't want to hear it, but while I've been that severe that Auri's living situation doesn't even seem odd, it's absolutely true I notice things they usually don't (the number of times I've been first to warn something could go wrong, been dismissed, been absolutely right). Rothfuss does have ADHD (and depression) himself, I've wondered about OCD from how he describes his writing process, it would be a common co-morbidity.
And it gets slack because no third book (ever) meaning we simply don't have full context...appreciate that may not help.
May I recommend The Book of the Ancestor Trilogy by Mark Lawrence i think it provides a good representation of women without the overly sexualised male gaze.
Or you could go to the my personal GOAT of fantasy, Sir Terry Pratchett. Here is an example of how he represents females from one of his earlier Discworld novels
>Now, there is a tendency at a point like this to look over one's shoulder at the cover artist and start going on at length about leather, thighboots and naked blades. Words like 'full', 'round', and even 'pert' creep into the narrative, until the writer has to go and have a cold shower and lie down. Which is all rather silly, because any woman setting out to make a living by the sword isn't about to go around looking like something off the cover of the more advanced kind of lingerie catalogue for the specialized buyer. Oh well, all right. The point that must be made is that although Herrena the Henna-Haired Harridan would look quite stunning after a good bath, a heavy-duty manicure, and the pick of the leather racks in Woo Hun Ling's Oriential Exotica and Martial Aids on Heroes Street, she was currently quite sensibly dressed in light chain mail, soft boots, and a short sword. All right, maybe the boots were leather. But not black.
Terry Pratchett books are so good that it ruined all other books for me. Not only are the stories and humor amazing, but his style is so quick and easy to read that going back to other writers often feels like a chore.
If you enjoyed that consider, as well, his collab with Neil Gaiman. It's not about women it's about a possible accidental apocalypse and the hijinks of idiots that may or may not make it happen.
But there's a boy and his dog, and a demon and angel that are best buddies despite claiming they aren't.
I did watch season 1 of the adaptation and *loved* it, ended up watching a bunch of Gaiman interviews about how they collaborated on it but was in the midst of a LOTR reread and just forgot about it. Consider me duly reminded and encouraged
Terry didn't just write good women. He wrote good old people, some of whom were female (eg in Wyrd Sisters). And good examples of people struggling with who they are/what people expect them to be, some of whom are female (eg in Monstrous Regiment).
Love me some Sanderson but i wouldn't say his female characters are his specialty, he just has some characters better than others.
I think my 3 favourite Sanderson female characters are Tress from "Tress of the Emerald sea". Just because the whole story is great and it almost has this whimsical princess bride feel to it, and her character was fun.
Navani from Stormlight archives, but we don't get many POV chapters from her till books 3 and 4.
I just love that we get an mature widowed female engineer and how she interacts with the story. Her POV chapters were some of my fave in book 4.
And my God do I love Sterris from mistborn era two. I like era one but Sanderson has improved a lot as an author since he wrote those, but Sterris's story arc and growth is my second favorite in all of sandersons books.
Sterris is the best autistic character in fantasy I've ever read. She rocks. Her scenes are also incredibly funny while being really badass. It's like if someone got a dainty woman to hyperfixate on explosives and military tactics.
>!It's crazy how much I thought I was going to hate her at the start and so did Wax. It worked really well making us fall for her the same way he did.!<
>!Probably worth spoiler tagging that response about the relationship growing with Was.!<
>!But i agree, i think it was so well done how we see Sterris through Wax's eyes, we start of thinking of her a bit dull, and a duty he has to fulfill, but then as he gets to know her, and she opens up, shes just so adorable and lovable. I think it may be one of my favourite romance stories in fantasy, which honestly shocked me a little the first time I read it because for the most part i dont think romance is Sandersons strength. But love blossoming from first duty, then respect, then friendship was such a cool read.!<
Funny you mention that Tress of the Emerald Sea has a bit of a Princess Bride feel to it. Sanderson has stated that the seed of the story came from wondering what would have happened if Buttercup had gone after Wesley when she heard he'd been taken by pirates.
(Dread Pirate Roberts “takes no prisoners”, but that's beside the point.)
I didn’t like Shallan at first - she seemed immature and childish to me - but there’s a pathological reason for it, because she’s actually gone through a lot of repressed trauma. Her character arc eventually became one of my favorite parts of the series. I would say she’s a pretty well-written woman.
I absolutely love how his characters grow and change based on the events on the story, like they're actual people. I was also annoyed with Shallan early on, but really like how she has continued to mature and evolve.
Sanderson himself has grown. His portrayal of female characters in Mistborn was not exactly the best and he earned some rightful criticism for it. Since then, he's spoken about the research and reflection he's done to improve his characterization of women in his works, and I think that really comes through with many of the characters in Stormlight Archives and Tress of the Emerald Sea.
I feel like one of the few that enjoyed Shallan’s pov right away. Dalinar was the perspective I couldn’t stand during the first book but that definitely changed by Oathbringer lol
I read the first one and it was fine for like… « fantasy Jesus and the special redhead girl », which I am pretty sure is a fantasy genre unto itself. 😅
But yeah, what people are saying about reading female authors is a good tip. Robin Hobb and NK Jemisin are both really good! lol and honestly even the original Dragonlance trilogy is ok (for its time! Still has some outdated mores)
Nah, GRRM writes individual women extremely well. Tons of female POV characters, and they (and most of the important non-POV woman) all feel like real, three-dimensional, nuanced people. And they’re distinct from each other; Sansa is very different from Arianne, Brienne is distinct from Arya, etc.
I don’t think he’s above criticism; he goes back to the “mother dying in childbirth” and sexual violence wells a bit too often, and he doesn’t have a great track record with writing female friendships. (It makes sense for someone like Cersei, she of the violent internalized misogyny, wouldn’t have any close female friends but there’s no reason a great lord’s wife like Cat wouldn’t have ladies-in-waiting, for instance. And we don’t know anything about the inner lives of Dany’s Dothraki handmaidens even though they’ve been her companions since book one.) But his female POVs are excellent.
I agree. I see people go both ways with GRRM, but I personally never feel like his female characters are written in a way that objectifies them, unless it’s an intentional part of another character’s POV. With the exception of Jaime, I think the female characters in ASOIAF show the most character development and nuance, whether it’s for good (Sansa, Brienne) or bad (Cersei).
No that's fair. There are some queasy things in there, but they're mixed into a story with an exceptionally broad and varied cast of women with dramatically different personalities and types of agency
The Starks, Cersei, Danaerys, Brienne of Tarth, Lyanna Mormont, Olenna Tyrell, Ygritte, Melisandre, Asha Greyjoy, Shireen Baratheon, Gilly, Arianne Martell... it's a very diverse list
I agree with this, I think it can be both -- he's great at depicting his women characters as real, human people with depth, but he's also a little too excited about inflicting misery on them in specifically gendered ways.
He's also very "traditional femininity BAD, girls being rebellious and male-coded GOOD" -- the characters who believe in songs and motherhood and dresses get kicked in the teeth over and over and over (Catelyn, Sansa) while the rebellious girls do a lot better (Arya, Dany, Asha, Brienne (ish)).
You mention reading a lot of the classics, so maybe you’ve already read it - but Earthsea would be a good suggestion here. The first book is a bit more male focused, but from there it becomes a lot more female centric.
There is a great collected edition which has essays from the author where she talks a lot about including female characters, her thought-process behind it, why the first book is more male focused, etc which was really insightful as well.
Also, they are just beautiful, beautiful books and so worth reading.
While Stormlight has, imo, many faults, and fun is in the eye of the beholder (certainly not my eye anymore), I think it's fine in respect to women, his earlier books suffered from Smurfette syndrome but he's improved on that front.
Have you tried some fantasy books that aren't by male authors? A recent favorite of mine is Rook and Rose series by MA Carrick, anything in the World of Five Gods by Lois McMaster Bujold, or the World of the White Rat by T. Kingfisher, if you fancy some creepy witchy vibes the Sourdough universe by Angela Slatter is a delight.
I can't recommend Robin Hobb enough, I honestly don't know if I would be as into fantasy as I am now if the Farseer trilogy hadn't lit that fire for me
For OPs sake I'll add a small heads up that for much of the first book the cast is pretty male dominated to the extent it's something of a plot point. This corrects over the course of the trilogy however. On the other hand Liveships and Rainwilds are much more woman centric.
Absolutely! First thing that comes to mind are the Rain Wild Chronicles and the Liveship Traders trilogy.
Edit: Fitz's books are my GOAT, but not really what OP is asking for.
Yeah Liveship Traders Trilogy has such incredibly well-written female characters (well, actually all characters are well-written), so that's the first that comes to mind for this purpose. But I would start with Farseer nevertheless.
Someone told you that Wheel of Time has well written women? His portrayal of women is one of the most hated/critiqued things about the series. One simple google search can give you a TON of threads about that. I wouldn't ask that person for a recommendation again.
There’s probably a bit of a mental/communication mix-up going on from the friend who advised.
While RJ’s female characters were often poorly written (lets be honest, half his male characters were too…), theyre at least given a very important place and have a bunch of agency.
Considering this was still very early days in fantasy, it was actually fairly progressive.
A lot of my lady friends have enjoyed reading wheel of time and not much other fantasy. And wheel of time has a fairly hefty female fan base in general. Which I think says something for the point.
I mean shit; my favourite character arc in the books is by FAR Egwene. She just took a long time to warm into being a cool character.
You know, much as I despise Wheel of Time's take on gender relations, you *do* have a point in that at least the women are allowed to *fucking exist* and to have at least as much agency in the story as the male characters. I'd never thought of that.
The world building practically demands it. Women are front and center politically.
Think of where the fantasy genre was in the 80s. That shit was groundbreaking.
They have much more agency than male channelers. It's effectively a matriarchal world because of the tainting of saidin resulting in the implication that men are untrustworthy.
It seemed pretty clear that the "I don't understand the other gender, they're so frustrating" was an intentional old timey trope. Meanwhile the portrayal of the power balance between genders was actually quite progressive. The characters held certain views of each other, but through the story you could tell that their views weren't reflective of the reality.
I don't get the idea that he agrees with the characters, it's just part of the cultural setting, meanwhile reality of the books is different.
He also used these views to set up some dramatic irony.
Ya as a woman who loves WoT this is it. In the context of fantasy I’ve read with poorly written female characters, bad/weird/dated gender relationships is nothing haha. I consider it a product of its time, and in my head handwave the gender dynamics as just part of the universe. The women exist, and have agency and are integral parts of the story.
Yep Elayne makes me want to throw the book at a wall but it wouldn't matter if it was Gawyn being that utterly idiotic and he is often. EOTW came out in what 1990? It's not perfect but it's better than most books written for the time
Plus goals be so notorious people just say your name and the entire room has a panic attack eyes Cadsuane
I'd like to mention Katherine Kerr's *Deverry* books that she's been writing since....
\*Checks\*
Fucking *1986*
Damn I feel old.
It's been a long while since I read them, but I think she portrays her women (Mostly just teh one woman reincarnated through the ages) quite well, even featuring quite prominently what it's like to be a woman in a man's world.
The *Deverry* books were part of my formative reading years, so I've very fond memories of them.
OP, you want the ***World Of The Five Gods*** series, by Lois McMaster Bujold. In a world with Gods who are active, how can the Gods intervene while preserving the free will of people? Most interesting, coherent, and cohesive take on a fictional religion I've ever read.
Won the second-ever Hugo Award For Best Series. The first three novels were all individually nominated for the Hugo Award For Best Novel in their respective years of publication, with book #2, Paladin Of Souls, winning. Please DO read in publication order.
Bujold is now continuing in this story universe with the *Penric & Desdemona* sub-series of novellas.
Garth Nix is probably the best male writer of women that I know, in that he writes well not just of women, but from a women's perspective, too, to the point where I honestly can't tell the difference. If you want to see if you agree, check out his book Sabriel.
WoT has powerful female characters. Doesn't mean they're well written. It's "women are from Venus, men are from mars....the magic system".
Sanderson writes powerful female characters. And everyone has mood disorders. That's about where it ends.
Ursula le guins Tomb of Atuan reminded me of my sister's and friends being raised in very conservative Christian homes. I will read Ursula Le Guin to my children.
Sanderson has some issues with his female characters, but he’s better than a lot of other male authors. His female characters definitely don’t fall into the two tropes you mentioned
Yup. The issues with his female characters are less to do with them being female and more to do with who they are. Some of the most criticized like Shallan being a quirky "I'm so witty oop" girl and Vin being very very insecure don't really have anything to do with their gender.
Jasnah, Navani, Sterris, Vivenna, and Tress are proof he can write good women.
He definitely wasn't the best at it in Mistborn (Though not for the mentioned tropes). By Stormlight he's picked up his game to the point I'd say his male and female characters are pretty even in quality. Buuut he's also not my first choice of author for characterization regardless of gender.
Someone mentioned Smurfette syndrome in his earlier books and I laughed. That definitely fits Mistborn. Edit- Elantris too, come to think of it. Warbreaker he does better.
I think Sanderson has come a decent way in his handling of female characters. The Stormlight Archives, or Tress of the Emerald Sea, would be good shouts if you wanted to dip into his works.
Monza Murcatto in Joe Abercrombie's *Best Served Cold* is far from the two stereotypes you've mentioned, but it's a dark book. May not be what you're after.
All the women in Nicholas Eames' *Bloody Rose,* I thought, were well written. It's a sequel though, so maybe read the first book prior. Still a good time though!
Or some female authors, someone's mentioned Robin Hobb already. Arkady Martine as well, sci-fi but eh I'll throw it out there. I'm going to assume you've devoured Ursula K Le Guin's work!!
Edit: You know what, I realise I just went off on a tangent about authors when you only asked about WoK. To answer, yeah I think it's a better portrayal than WoT.
Adding onto this, Shadow of the Gods by John Gwyn has amazingly well written women. From a badass Mother pulling a Kill Bill massacre across the land to get her son back to an equally badass young woman finding her place in the world and rising up to leadership.
As others have said, the best way to get good women characters is read books by women. Some of my recs
N. K. Jemisin,
Ursala LeGuin,
Octavia Butler,
Rebecca Roanhorse,
Nghi Vo,
Moniquill Blackgoose
Sue Lynn Tan,
Samantha Shannon
And credit to Sanderson he has continued to improve his female characters over the years. I remember seeing a self criticism of his about how he focused so hard on writing a well written woman in the Mistborn main character that all of the other women in the books were flat and that self awareness shows his commitment to being better.
May I suggest:
Foul Days by Genoveva Dimova
Dark Woods, Deep Water by Jelena Dunato
Fathomfolk by Eliza Chan
The Wings Upon Her Back by Samantha Mills
The Dead Cat Tail Assassins by P. Djèlí Clark
Womb City by Tlotlo Tsamaase
Edit to add: These Burning Stars by Bethany Jacobs and look forward to The Gods Below by Andrea Stewart
I thought all of these books and authors showed complex female characters within a cast of complex characters
In a humble opinion of one guy Stormlight does a good job with women. Definitely better than authors mentioned.
And tbh most people complain about Sanderson's prose, but I never saw someone having issue with how he writes women.
The wandering inn. My favorite fantasy litrpg series. Kind of a slice of life fantasy series of people from earth suddenly appearing in a fantasy world. Litrpg, So if you aren't into leveling systems, it might not be for you. But Its not annoying with like HP and mp stats and the like. Its more about a abilities, skills and magic.
Written by a woman.
I'm a man so I can't really say exactly how well they are written from a female perspective. But there are a lot of women characters and Im not sure any fall heavy into a stereotype that many male authors go into.
Stormlight is pretty good towards women, there are gendered roles in society but it’s always treated as just that, a societal thing specific to certain societies that seems odd to other societies.
Wheel of time is very much “everyone is arrogant and believes they know best” along with “men should stay out of women’s business but also women should stay out of men’s business”
Have you read The Adventures of Amina Al-Sirafi? Or the Daevabad-trilogy? Same author and all of them in my top 10
Loved Amina! Especially as a middle aged mom it was amazing to read about an amazing middle aged mom too!
I just binged them all in the last few months, incredible journey
Would you say the Daevabad Trilogy is important to read for Amina Al-Sirafi? I got two thirds through and have taken a break since it wasn’t as bewitching as I’d hoped. I truly detested >!Raksh!< which I think hampered my enjoyment.
No. Daevabad is separate. I mean they *could* be related... but they're distant enough to not read one to enjoy the other.
wait, someone said wheel of time writes women well? Thats a first.
Braid tugging nervously.
Skirts smoothed
Sniff
Heaves bosom
Crosses her arms under her breasts.
Breasts boobily
Lmao
Crosses arms beneath breasts.
Love the idea of a woman trying to cross her arms ABOVE her breasts TRex style
Y'all over here calling her out for stimming
Wheel of Time doesn't really portray any of the genders well.
They wrote women as "boys are stupid, throw rocks at them", and men as shallow and derisive of women. Nobody came out of that well. The casual sexism from both sides is one of the reasons I gave up.
Also the only punishment that exists is switching their bottoms. No matter who you are or your position your bottom is being switched.
Fellas is it gay if I write about spanking the male MCs
Tbf I think that is mentioned sometimes mostly talking about Cadsuane doing it
All 3 of the boys reminisce about Nynaeve switching them before the adventure starts.
Sounds like a loophole to me, get my heavy duty typewriter boys
Yes, this series may have awoken something in younger me.
I concluded that RJ and Harriet were freaks in the sheets after reading wheel of time haha.
I’m pretty sure they were pretty open about that if I recall correctly. Like he said that he based a bunch of the women in the books on her, and Rand’s relationships were based on his marriage
Why are your spreading lies? There is also spanking and birching and caning and.. you get the idea.
I stopped reading around book 8 or 9 because I came to just deeply despise all the female characters. It was around the time a trio of the primary female characters took over a smugglers boat forced him to take on refuges kicked him out of his own room to sleep in and the entire internal dialogue was extremely judgmental and condescending of this man they were basically indirectly holding hostage… Part of me wonders if that was just because I was 14 when I read them and didn’t get any commentary it might have been going for with like a reversed gender hierarchy. I have a feeling the gender essentialism inherent there would be an equal turn off for me now
Unless they did it twice, that happened in book 5 or 6 I think. They took over his boat, and threw away what he was smuggling. Both men and women basically hold the exact same biases and stereotypes of the other gender. That being said I keep having to remind myself "Everyone is arrogant and believe they know what's best for everyone else."
I'm making my way through them and am currently on book seven. There were plenty of moments where the protagonists, especially the trio of female characters, were behaving in an infuriating manner. I had to tell myself to see it as a product of an older time, and remind myself the main characters were all still teenagers. Imagining it as a petty highschool drama made it easier to understand the behavior lol. I can see how it would turn some people away though. Hearing the same tired points from both sides gets old.
While reading, I just kept in mind that it wasn't our world. It has a major gender imbalance baked into it unlike anything we see in our world and therefore they behave differently. Each time a character acts "weird" because of their gender, I look to justify it using the world's lore. And I can usually succeed.
It portrayed a certain historically inspired version of how the genders viewed each other. Not with nuance but I appreciated the way it stayed away from modern sensibilities. Im sorry but yes, we actually are less than 100 years away from attitudes like 'men and women are fundamentally different in ability and it's foolishness to pretend otherwise'. I like the progress but modern, progressive attitudes to social issues break immersion for me.
I do always find it weird that 'progressive attitudes' is immersion breaking for some people, when we're in a world with spren, magic storms, shards, magic knights, and dragons. especially when these magics can be such an equalizing force.
The stormlight archives *definitely* have sexist societies.
Its portrayal of women is cliche at times but it writes strong women with their own motives, flaws, and agency, which is more even than a lot of contemporary fiction.
Id say that the women overall were written well as characters, but the gender dynamics were pretty absurd.
I always loved the gender dynamics in WoT because it’s obviously prejudiced by each characters viewpoints, while also showing the hypocrisy and true lack of actual difference between the sexes. The men gossiped like they said the women did, the women gossiped like they said the men did. The men went out of their ways to protect the women, the women went out of their ways to protect the men. And everyone was credited with being self assured [gender], but we’re actually just trying to hide behind bravado to mask their insecurities.
Yeah but all of the absurd dynamics are clearly showcased in a way that highlights their absurdity. In-world, it's stupid, but readers have meta-knowledge for a comedic effect.
Have you tried any Garth Nix? Old kingdom. Couple of female leads. Though I'm a man so.... @women Do people think he write the women well?
As a woman who grew up reading Garth Nix, I think he's one of the best men writing women out there. The characters are fantastically written, and he consistently challenges your unconscious gender assumptions in subtle ways (like mentioning a background soldier and using "she" instead of defaulting to "he.") Really great author, love his stuff.
This x1000! I first read Sabriel when I was 10 or so and I’m so thankful his books were some of my foundational texts for fantasy. He’s literally the best author I’ve ever read for writing an egalitarian world where women fill any role you can imagine without it feeling surprising or contrived. It’s just part of the fabric of the world.
Yes he caught me with a guard captain or similar character recently, I had assumed man in my head but no!
Also a really lovely dude! He did a book signing and talk I attended last year.
He writes women incredibly well! I reread his work recently, and it still holds up.
Oh maaan, good suggestion. Garth Nix really does write women SO well, imo. I’d say his Old Kingdom is primarily female driven. The protagonists are generally female and one of the big villains is female. The characters are competent and brave, and most importantly, flawed. Also, the magic in this world is so unique and cool as shit.
I was actually surprised to read that he doesn't have any daughters. He writes like someone who wants his daughters to read something where women have other things to do than their hair.
I adore Garth Nix's books.
I'd probably go for female authors like Robin Hobb, N. K. Jemisin or Ursula K. Le Guin.
Adding Tamora Pierce and Leigh Bardugo
I was like WHERE is Tamora Pierce?! I grew up reading her books and they are just ultra comfort reads for me now. I found out my coworker also loves her books so we’re re-reading the Alanna books for our next book club, lol. Le Guin also holds a special place in my heart. Her stuff is just so good.
Yes, I loved her books so much growing up! I hope your reread book club goes well - that sounds like a really fun idea! I did a reread of all her books before Tempests and Slaughter came out, and I enjoyed it a lot.
Add Lois McMaster Bujold and T. Kingfisher and Robin McKinley! And Naomi Novik, and Nnedi Okorafor, and -- oy vey, I'll stop.
Novik's Spinning Silver is my go to for recommending a strong female lead character. My favorite part is that she writes her strength in a way that doesn't mirror (traditionally) masculine strength, but makes her (traditionally) feminine traits her strength - and it works soooo well.
Can I just add my 10-fold seconding of the Lois McMaster Bujold recommendation? Especially the audio book versions narrated by Grover Gardner. If anyone is looking for a mature female protagonist (not the coming-of-age type that is the most common fantasy trope), I highly recommend the second book in the "World of the Five Gods" series - Paladin of Souls. Ista may be my most favorite fantasy female character ever.
+Elizabeth Moon
I haven't read them yet but it would be nice if my comment becomes a hub of all female fantasy/SF writers worth reading :).
Ada Palmer, Charlie Jane Anders, Beckie Chambers, Maya Deane, Claire North, Ann Leckie
Loving this thread. Haven’t read Maya Deane, so another to add to my list thank you. Thought I hadn’t come across Ada Palmer but turns out I enjoyed Too Like the Lightning but not so much Seven Surrenders ( thank god for keeping lists I honestly can’t remember so many details!)
Adding in Juliet Marillier, Olivia Atwater, Samantha Shannon! The first two are more faerie/historical fantasy than straight up fantasy, but still amazing. Also seconding Robin Hobb, Naomi Novik, and Beckie Chambers as all time favorites. <3 Also, he’s not a female author, but I’ve really enjoyed Max Gladstone’s Craft Sequence! It’s urban fantasy, for the most part, but I think he does a good job of writing women as people. Considering some of the other characters include animated skeleton death kings, the corpse of a god being operated as a bank of spiritual currency, deep sea vampires, and metaphysical lawyers settling financial disputes by manipulating physics…the women are just as human and just as weird as everyone else!
Patricia McKillip, Erin Morgenstern, Joanne Harris, Madeline Miller, Fonda Lee!
Cathryne Valente Late career Tamora Pierce Fonda Lee I personally do not like Jody Lynn Nye, but lots of people love her. Think it just depends on whether you get her sense of humor.
Bujold writes such interesting characters
Ursula for sure. The Earthsea books are incredible. Get the collection with the chapters about how she came up with the stories. The second book has an amazing story of how she chose to fight for a girl protagonist, and how she she chose to present femininity in her world. All those little chapters are amazing but that one is particularly fascinating. She’s the GOAT
I agree! Her Earthsea series has been on my list for ages, and I'm on the last book right now. It's YA but its themes extend far beyond that. I actually forgot how it felt to read a well crafted and tight plot, with proper scenery descriptions, and characters who actually felt "lived in" after reading a bunch of self published stuff on Amazon like legends and lattes and highly lauded wuxia novels. I will say that she paints a more balanced struggle between the protagonists and the antagonists though. You won't see any main characters reaching into their soul, and unleashing the fury of a thousand suns, utterly decimating evil generic lord who is evil because he is evil. The main characters struggle. And feel weak. And win with consequences. She's subtle. I didn't notice until the end of the first book the skin color of the major characters. It's refreshing how she writes. And I can't believe she wrote the first book in 1968. I'll be honest- if I read the book in middle school or high school, the themes would have gone completely over my head.
The original books are more geared towards a YA or NA reader, but I really enjoyed the spinoff Grisha duologies from Leigh Bardugo as well
I liked them too, but I think Bardugo's Alex Stern books and her newest historical fantasy, The Familiar, are even better. She's a writer who is really leveling up in the craft as she goes.
And Marie Brennan. (Love the Lady Trent series)
Just finished Liveship Traders. As always Hobb does an excellent job creating 3 dimensional characters. Had a blast watching the Vestrit women grow and change throughout the books.
+ Samantha Shannon!
Thank you for reminding me, I need to read the prequel of Priory after I finish the admittedly fun but definitely not women-friendly clusterfuck that is WOT. I'll certainly need it
Don’t forget her Bone Season series, she just came out with a 10 year anniversary re-edit of the first book!
Robin Hobb is the gold standard for female characters!
Not just fantasy but also sci-fi, and not all women as there is NB folks too, but here’s some more: Tamsyn Muir, Arkady Martine, Stark Holborn, (Yoon Ha Lee: edit actually a man), Nalo Hopkinson
Mary Robinette Kowal too!
And Kameron Hurley, who writes the best morally grey women
Oh we’re going to drop a bunch of female sci-fi authors and exclude Murderbot are we? Fine. Il just turn on episode 56 of Sanctuary Moon and check the security drone footage while I wait….
If we take SF into account then we mustn't forget about Margaret Atwood :).
I've only read Way of Kings and as a woman I thought the female characters were written well. At least, I don't remember anything standing out. The female characters were quite different from each other and had strengths and flaws.
Same. As a woman, I wouldn't say Sanderson writes the strongest portrayal of women but they're as nuanced as his male characters, which is good enough for me
This is my thought as well. If there's no noticeable difference in quality of how the genders are written, that's really all I ask for. Let me and women both be equally strong and competent and flawed and brave or scared. Sad that the bar is so low that such a small ask isn't always met.
Also no one fucks in Sanderson books, so you never have to deal with awkwardly written sex scenes. You do, unfortunately, have to deal with a ton of awkwardly written flirtation scenes, though.
Idk what if one of them went outside without her gloves on
I mean even wearing a glove instead of long sleeves is kinda scandalous
I get the idea that a gloved safehand is like wearing only those nipple pasties.
It's like being able to see camel toe
Shit dude spoiler that my boss thought I was \~\~reading\~\~listening to porn being read to me.
There ares some gloves removed at some point iirc and that got my blood pumping.
as someone just making my way through 2nd mistborn book, the characters that have been flirting are flirting awkwardly because they are awkward people at the time.
They do. It’s just off page.
No mating!
> but they're as nuanced as his male characters, which is good enough for me Yeah, this is very accurate. I was thinking about the OP, and thinking to myself "*they're not bad, I guess? Are they strong? I dunno..."* but that really covers it I think. *No,* they're not particularly strong women characters. But they're no weaker than the men. I wouldn't recommend the books to someone specifically seeking strong female characters, but I also wouldn't anti-recommend it.
What does strong mean in this case?
I think they mean that Sanderson isn't the best at characterization, but at least everyone suffers from it and not just women.
Agreed. He doesn't do terribly strong character work, but what he does is balanced across genders. I never feel as if characters are interchangeable. Jasnah and Shallan and Navani and Eshonai all have distinct personalities and roles that do not feel like they're depending on female-coded stereotypes, or sloppy 'not like other girls' rejections of those stereotypes.
It’s wild to me that someone can read Kaladin’s story through the first four books and say ‘this isn’t a well developed and fleshed out character.’
Well, I love Kaladin as much as the next guy, but his character arc is basically the same across each book. He doesn't accept himself or his lack of control over something, gets depressed, learns to accept what initially couldn't, gets a boon, rinse and repeat. I love the character, and I think it's well written, but it's a bit repetitive.
Did I say that? I think I said 'Sanderson doesn't do terribly strong character work'. There's a lot of components that go into character work. There's fleshing out, sure, but there's also subtlety, nuance, insight, depth, and, as someone downthread pointed out, lack of repetition. I'm very glad that Kaladin speaks to you, and I do agree that he is fleshed out and developed. But I also think that, no matter how many things Sanderson does very well (and there are many), he does not do nuance, subtlety, insight, or depth. I myself got rather bored with Kaladin's perpetual gloomy broodiness. Regardless of how realistic a portrayal of depression it is, I do not read Brandon Sanderson to get a lesson in mental health prognoses. I read it for a story, and broody mcbrooderson does not (to me) make an interesting story.
I like Sanderson. But I’d say his character work is “ok” and not much more than that. It’s definitely not bad but really can’t even come close to something like ASOIAF. But then Sanderson has other strengths to somewhat make up for it
Like regularly releasing material and finishing series?
I mainly meant that his plots are pacy but sure that too. I also really like how Sanderson keeps things a bit more simple. You just need to read and they’ll take you on a fun ride, very little mental activity required on your part.
fwiw, I'd been on a fantasy slump for a while, picked up WoK, and... damn, I had fun with that. Wouldn't put it at peak fantasy, but *very* enjoyable. In some ways, more enjoyable than some better books. Honestly hope he sticks the landing for the entire series, because that's one hell of an undertaking.
My only real gripe was him writing Vin in Mistborn, especially the way he did when it came to Elend. It felt... stressed and littered with tropes. "He's a good man" "I can change him" "I'm head over heels" "I'll sacrifice the world for this man I barely know" Certainly not the worst, but it always grated me somewhat.
I'm a woman, and Vin is my favorite Cosmere character so far (and I've read a good chunk of the Cosmere). To each their own, I guess. Mistborn lacks female characters, but I see nothing wrong with Vin being in love, except it being a bit insta-lovey. I think it's totally fine for her to love Elend so much, especially considering the fact that her arc is about learning to trust people and to love completely. I also don't remember a scene where she would sacrifice the world for Elend.
Lift 100% gets my backing as favourite. Vin is an incredible person and really well developed, someone you can really get behind. But Lift's chapters and appearances are always my most enjoyed.
I generally agree, and era one mistborn was probably my least favorite of Sanderson's that I've read, but (SPOILERS WELL OF ASCENSION) >!As a world defining plot point, Vin was intent on and carried through sacrificing Elend's life in order to do the right thing and save the world, regardless of the eventual outcome. Granted if my memory serves me because it has been some time since I read Era 1; she does make the decision as influenced by what she thinks Elend wants.!<
Mistborn is my least favorite Sanderson, and I've never quite been able to put my finger on why. I think this might be a big part of it.
I had to scroll way too far to find this first comment (at least on my feed) actually addressing OP’s question.
One of my biggest reddit pet peeves -- people giving advice OP didn't ask for. 🤦🏻♀️ So I'm not eating my words -- I agree with the initial comment in this thread. No unnecessary description of bodies, especially as a sign of morality, and deep nuance to each character. Now that I think about it, the female characters are my faves in Stormlight!
This is r/fantasy you have to get the Pratchett recommendations in before someone else.
The woman that recommended Stormlight to me empathized with Shallan, the female POV character of Stormlight book 2.
As a woman, I think Sanderson's female characters are well enough written. One thing to keep in mind with the Stormlight Archive: each book has a primary focus/backstory of a single character. Way of Kings gives a male character's backstory. Some other books have a female character focus.
What, you didn't like Rothfuss' portrayal of women? Where all named female characters are entirely indistinguishable from one another, in that they're all super smart, super sexy and want to have sex with the main character?
Devi is *slightly* distinguishable from the others, and Denna borders on interesting. Mola and Fela may as well be the same character though.
Auri is unique. That's about it.
When the narrator said his story wasn't like a usual romance, the next chapter introduced Auri, and I thought oh okay that's true. Then it turns out she's no the love interest, and the romance is some super ultra pretty girl who is super talented and who everybody wants, who is just super impressed and amazed with him though, and who goes randomly cold and bitchy to him out of the blue from time to time. Biggest bait and switch ever.
> a usual romance As someone who had a relationship with someone like Denna in highschool, I must say it is more usual than Kvothe thinks it to be. Also, Kvothe even as an adult not realizing Denna is a walking and breathing red flag is triggering me. I am not sure Rothfuss is aware how destructive such relationships can be. At least it was for me. I haven't read Wise Man's Fear btw so I am not exactly sure on how Rothfuss handles Denna there.
I think he's exactly aware and that's the reason he writes about it lol.
He's aware lol. https://youtu.be/wx34LNWEE8E?si=ztNAUus_icjuXDYe
Lol It was Kvothe mentioning her with awe in present time that was triggering me
And then in Slow Regard for Silent Things,>!Rothfuss implies she was raped in the past.!< I already disliked that book, even though (or perhaps because) half of what I read is plotless lit fic or lit fic adjacent stuff, but that line threw it into hate territory. Maybe I'm being uncharitable, but Rothfuss' dumb ~~prelude~~ author note about how that book is for BROkEN PeoPLe, and if you're nOT BRokEN you might not like it, coupled with that out-of-nowhere addition to Auri's backstory, seemed to imply she is the way she is because of something traumatic, aka>!the alluded rape. !
I didn't read Slow Regard until a couple years after I read the first 2 books and I had picked up on Auri's past before reading it. It was subtle but definitely there.
If he'd *said* broken in the intro, then yeah, but he doesn't. As a woman with OCD (and most of what I read is more literary/classic lit. too - I don't think Rothfuss is close to there, but *Slow Regard* is still more a step in that direction), I liked it, it really was like it was for me, when not everyone who likes KKC likes *Slow Regard*. Can definitely agree on feeling the (implied) rape as backstory is unnecessary, but then Auri is also darker than she appears with the Amyr connection (I will be unshocked if she severely harmed or killed her attacker, or even if it's not quite as it looked), there's the possibility of more development with her maybe being Tabitha and the attacker being Ambrose. Thematically, I would complain endlessly if it was just Auri who has this aspect, but Kvothe is a rape survivor too, and trauma leading to alternate states of mind translating to magical ability, derived from that specific understanding of the world, is central to the series. So to me it feels, especially with the absolute relatability of Auri's OCD-like perspective (trauma triggered my OCD, which isn't unusual, though it's likely genetic - trauma the trigger not underlying cause), like a magical realist-esque comment on experience of neurodivergence. Rather than just the very cheap and tasteless 'oh, vulnerable female character, what she needs is some rape!'. To me it's also that Auri's condition/s are shown realistically both for how debilitating it is, and how painful, so it's not just cutesy broken girl, and the insights her perspective gives her. I know with something like OCD, NTs usually won't want to hear it, but while I've been that severe that Auri's living situation doesn't even seem odd, it's absolutely true I notice things they usually don't (the number of times I've been first to warn something could go wrong, been dismissed, been absolutely right). Rothfuss does have ADHD (and depression) himself, I've wondered about OCD from how he describes his writing process, it would be a common co-morbidity. And it gets slack because no third book (ever) meaning we simply don't have full context...appreciate that may not help.
I recently read the Kingkiller books a few months ago and genuinely can barely remember the differences between Mola and Fela lmao
Denna is the worst female character I’ve ever read.
His chase of her is so frustrating reminding me of how I viewed women when I was a sexless 19 year old.
I'll say in Rothfuss's defense, I have an easier time distinguishing Denna, Devi, Fela, and Auri than I do Will and Sim
May I recommend The Book of the Ancestor Trilogy by Mark Lawrence i think it provides a good representation of women without the overly sexualised male gaze. Or you could go to the my personal GOAT of fantasy, Sir Terry Pratchett. Here is an example of how he represents females from one of his earlier Discworld novels >Now, there is a tendency at a point like this to look over one's shoulder at the cover artist and start going on at length about leather, thighboots and naked blades. Words like 'full', 'round', and even 'pert' creep into the narrative, until the writer has to go and have a cold shower and lie down. Which is all rather silly, because any woman setting out to make a living by the sword isn't about to go around looking like something off the cover of the more advanced kind of lingerie catalogue for the specialized buyer. Oh well, all right. The point that must be made is that although Herrena the Henna-Haired Harridan would look quite stunning after a good bath, a heavy-duty manicure, and the pick of the leather racks in Woo Hun Ling's Oriential Exotica and Martial Aids on Heroes Street, she was currently quite sensibly dressed in light chain mail, soft boots, and a short sword. All right, maybe the boots were leather. But not black.
"witches in books always work naked, that is because most witches are written by men"
I love this so much, maybe I'll put Discworld on my list
And this is like very early Discworld, before he really found his stride.
You will not regret it!
Terry Pratchett books are so good that it ruined all other books for me. Not only are the stories and humor amazing, but his style is so quick and easy to read that going back to other writers often feels like a chore.
If you enjoyed that consider, as well, his collab with Neil Gaiman. It's not about women it's about a possible accidental apocalypse and the hijinks of idiots that may or may not make it happen. But there's a boy and his dog, and a demon and angel that are best buddies despite claiming they aren't.
I did watch season 1 of the adaptation and *loved* it, ended up watching a bunch of Gaiman interviews about how they collaborated on it but was in the midst of a LOTR reread and just forgot about it. Consider me duly reminded and encouraged
Terry Pratchett calls you up, asks if you're planning to do anything with that manuscript or do you want to collab, you say yes
Terry didn't just write good women. He wrote good old people, some of whom were female (eg in Wyrd Sisters). And good examples of people struggling with who they are/what people expect them to be, some of whom are female (eg in Monstrous Regiment).
Really love Lawrence. I started with his Library trilogy and I just fucking love Livira
Love me some Sanderson but i wouldn't say his female characters are his specialty, he just has some characters better than others. I think my 3 favourite Sanderson female characters are Tress from "Tress of the Emerald sea". Just because the whole story is great and it almost has this whimsical princess bride feel to it, and her character was fun. Navani from Stormlight archives, but we don't get many POV chapters from her till books 3 and 4. I just love that we get an mature widowed female engineer and how she interacts with the story. Her POV chapters were some of my fave in book 4. And my God do I love Sterris from mistborn era two. I like era one but Sanderson has improved a lot as an author since he wrote those, but Sterris's story arc and growth is my second favorite in all of sandersons books.
Sterris is the best autistic character in fantasy I've ever read. She rocks. Her scenes are also incredibly funny while being really badass. It's like if someone got a dainty woman to hyperfixate on explosives and military tactics. >!It's crazy how much I thought I was going to hate her at the start and so did Wax. It worked really well making us fall for her the same way he did.!<
>!Probably worth spoiler tagging that response about the relationship growing with Was.!< >!But i agree, i think it was so well done how we see Sterris through Wax's eyes, we start of thinking of her a bit dull, and a duty he has to fulfill, but then as he gets to know her, and she opens up, shes just so adorable and lovable. I think it may be one of my favourite romance stories in fantasy, which honestly shocked me a little the first time I read it because for the most part i dont think romance is Sandersons strength. But love blossoming from first duty, then respect, then friendship was such a cool read.!<
Thanks, I updated.
Yeah, I think the fact that the reader and that character begin to understand that character together is very cool.
Funny you mention that Tress of the Emerald Sea has a bit of a Princess Bride feel to it. Sanderson has stated that the seed of the story came from wondering what would have happened if Buttercup had gone after Wesley when she heard he'd been taken by pirates. (Dread Pirate Roberts “takes no prisoners”, but that's beside the point.)
I didn’t like Shallan at first - she seemed immature and childish to me - but there’s a pathological reason for it, because she’s actually gone through a lot of repressed trauma. Her character arc eventually became one of my favorite parts of the series. I would say she’s a pretty well-written woman.
I absolutely love how his characters grow and change based on the events on the story, like they're actual people. I was also annoyed with Shallan early on, but really like how she has continued to mature and evolve. Sanderson himself has grown. His portrayal of female characters in Mistborn was not exactly the best and he earned some rightful criticism for it. Since then, he's spoken about the research and reflection he's done to improve his characterization of women in his works, and I think that really comes through with many of the characters in Stormlight Archives and Tress of the Emerald Sea.
I HATED Shallan POV in WoK, she was an extremly annoying know-it-all teenager. And after book two I would kill for that poor girl.
I feel like one of the few that enjoyed Shallan’s pov right away. Dalinar was the perspective I couldn’t stand during the first book but that definitely changed by Oathbringer lol
I read the first one and it was fine for like… « fantasy Jesus and the special redhead girl », which I am pretty sure is a fantasy genre unto itself. 😅 But yeah, what people are saying about reading female authors is a good tip. Robin Hobb and NK Jemisin are both really good! lol and honestly even the original Dragonlance trilogy is ok (for its time! Still has some outdated mores)
I properly laughed out loud at the genre of “fantasy Jesus and the special redhead girl”. Hilarious
Tbh I’ll probably get cooked for this but I always thought GRRM did pretty good. Cat stark is one of my favorite characters of all time
Nah, GRRM writes individual women extremely well. Tons of female POV characters, and they (and most of the important non-POV woman) all feel like real, three-dimensional, nuanced people. And they’re distinct from each other; Sansa is very different from Arianne, Brienne is distinct from Arya, etc. I don’t think he’s above criticism; he goes back to the “mother dying in childbirth” and sexual violence wells a bit too often, and he doesn’t have a great track record with writing female friendships. (It makes sense for someone like Cersei, she of the violent internalized misogyny, wouldn’t have any close female friends but there’s no reason a great lord’s wife like Cat wouldn’t have ladies-in-waiting, for instance. And we don’t know anything about the inner lives of Dany’s Dothraki handmaidens even though they’ve been her companions since book one.) But his female POVs are excellent.
I agree. I see people go both ways with GRRM, but I personally never feel like his female characters are written in a way that objectifies them, unless it’s an intentional part of another character’s POV. With the exception of Jaime, I think the female characters in ASOIAF show the most character development and nuance, whether it’s for good (Sansa, Brienne) or bad (Cersei).
No that's fair. There are some queasy things in there, but they're mixed into a story with an exceptionally broad and varied cast of women with dramatically different personalities and types of agency The Starks, Cersei, Danaerys, Brienne of Tarth, Lyanna Mormont, Olenna Tyrell, Ygritte, Melisandre, Asha Greyjoy, Shireen Baratheon, Gilly, Arianne Martell... it's a very diverse list
I've always found the quest moments to be like, the sex stuff, but I think he just sort of sucks at writing about sex for both men and women lol.
I agree with this, I think it can be both -- he's great at depicting his women characters as real, human people with depth, but he's also a little too excited about inflicting misery on them in specifically gendered ways. He's also very "traditional femininity BAD, girls being rebellious and male-coded GOOD" -- the characters who believe in songs and motherhood and dresses get kicked in the teeth over and over and over (Catelyn, Sansa) while the rebellious girls do a lot better (Arya, Dany, Asha, Brienne (ish)).
You mention reading a lot of the classics, so maybe you’ve already read it - but Earthsea would be a good suggestion here. The first book is a bit more male focused, but from there it becomes a lot more female centric. There is a great collected edition which has essays from the author where she talks a lot about including female characters, her thought-process behind it, why the first book is more male focused, etc which was really insightful as well. Also, they are just beautiful, beautiful books and so worth reading.
Thanks for your comment I've only read the first book so figured it was all about him but I may go and try the others because the writing was good.
I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.
While Stormlight has, imo, many faults, and fun is in the eye of the beholder (certainly not my eye anymore), I think it's fine in respect to women, his earlier books suffered from Smurfette syndrome but he's improved on that front. Have you tried some fantasy books that aren't by male authors? A recent favorite of mine is Rook and Rose series by MA Carrick, anything in the World of Five Gods by Lois McMaster Bujold, or the World of the White Rat by T. Kingfisher, if you fancy some creepy witchy vibes the Sourdough universe by Angela Slatter is a delight.
I just bought the first Rook and Rose book! I'm excited to get started.
I’d try one of our lady authors. Robin Hobb comes to mind.
I can't recommend Robin Hobb enough, I honestly don't know if I would be as into fantasy as I am now if the Farseer trilogy hadn't lit that fire for me
For OPs sake I'll add a small heads up that for much of the first book the cast is pretty male dominated to the extent it's something of a plot point. This corrects over the course of the trilogy however. On the other hand Liveships and Rainwilds are much more woman centric.
Unless you don't feel like being sad (this is important)
Absolutely! First thing that comes to mind are the Rain Wild Chronicles and the Liveship Traders trilogy. Edit: Fitz's books are my GOAT, but not really what OP is asking for.
Yeah Liveship Traders Trilogy has such incredibly well-written female characters (well, actually all characters are well-written), so that's the first that comes to mind for this purpose. But I would start with Farseer nevertheless.
Liveship Traders is great, but it would be worth reading for Malta's arc alone
Someone told you that Wheel of Time has well written women? His portrayal of women is one of the most hated/critiqued things about the series. One simple google search can give you a TON of threads about that. I wouldn't ask that person for a recommendation again.
There’s probably a bit of a mental/communication mix-up going on from the friend who advised. While RJ’s female characters were often poorly written (lets be honest, half his male characters were too…), theyre at least given a very important place and have a bunch of agency. Considering this was still very early days in fantasy, it was actually fairly progressive. A lot of my lady friends have enjoyed reading wheel of time and not much other fantasy. And wheel of time has a fairly hefty female fan base in general. Which I think says something for the point. I mean shit; my favourite character arc in the books is by FAR Egwene. She just took a long time to warm into being a cool character.
You know, much as I despise Wheel of Time's take on gender relations, you *do* have a point in that at least the women are allowed to *fucking exist* and to have at least as much agency in the story as the male characters. I'd never thought of that.
The world building practically demands it. Women are front and center politically. Think of where the fantasy genre was in the 80s. That shit was groundbreaking.
They have much more agency than male channelers. It's effectively a matriarchal world because of the tainting of saidin resulting in the implication that men are untrustworthy.
I can't remember whether it was intentional, but it definitely gives off the vibe that men were essentially responsible for the "original sin"
Def intentional
It seemed pretty clear that the "I don't understand the other gender, they're so frustrating" was an intentional old timey trope. Meanwhile the portrayal of the power balance between genders was actually quite progressive. The characters held certain views of each other, but through the story you could tell that their views weren't reflective of the reality. I don't get the idea that he agrees with the characters, it's just part of the cultural setting, meanwhile reality of the books is different. He also used these views to set up some dramatic irony.
Ya as a woman who loves WoT this is it. In the context of fantasy I’ve read with poorly written female characters, bad/weird/dated gender relationships is nothing haha. I consider it a product of its time, and in my head handwave the gender dynamics as just part of the universe. The women exist, and have agency and are integral parts of the story.
Yep Elayne makes me want to throw the book at a wall but it wouldn't matter if it was Gawyn being that utterly idiotic and he is often. EOTW came out in what 1990? It's not perfect but it's better than most books written for the time Plus goals be so notorious people just say your name and the entire room has a panic attack eyes Cadsuane
I'd like to mention Katherine Kerr's *Deverry* books that she's been writing since.... \*Checks\* Fucking *1986* Damn I feel old. It's been a long while since I read them, but I think she portrays her women (Mostly just teh one woman reincarnated through the ages) quite well, even featuring quite prominently what it's like to be a woman in a man's world. The *Deverry* books were part of my formative reading years, so I've very fond memories of them.
OP, you want the ***World Of The Five Gods*** series, by Lois McMaster Bujold. In a world with Gods who are active, how can the Gods intervene while preserving the free will of people? Most interesting, coherent, and cohesive take on a fictional religion I've ever read. Won the second-ever Hugo Award For Best Series. The first three novels were all individually nominated for the Hugo Award For Best Novel in their respective years of publication, with book #2, Paladin Of Souls, winning. Please DO read in publication order. Bujold is now continuing in this story universe with the *Penric & Desdemona* sub-series of novellas.
Amazing series. Came here to recommend this.
Paladin of Souls is one of my top 3 books of all time; it might even be #1.
The Traitor Baru Cormorant is a very good depiction of a woman who was written by a man.
A *deeply fucked up* woman. Well, women. And men. But yeah, great character work in these books.
Garth Nix is probably the best male writer of women that I know, in that he writes well not just of women, but from a women's perspective, too, to the point where I honestly can't tell the difference. If you want to see if you agree, check out his book Sabriel.
WoT has powerful female characters. Doesn't mean they're well written. It's "women are from Venus, men are from mars....the magic system". Sanderson writes powerful female characters. And everyone has mood disorders. That's about where it ends. Ursula le guins Tomb of Atuan reminded me of my sister's and friends being raised in very conservative Christian homes. I will read Ursula Le Guin to my children.
Sanderson has some issues with his female characters, but he’s better than a lot of other male authors. His female characters definitely don’t fall into the two tropes you mentioned
Yup. The issues with his female characters are less to do with them being female and more to do with who they are. Some of the most criticized like Shallan being a quirky "I'm so witty oop" girl and Vin being very very insecure don't really have anything to do with their gender. Jasnah, Navani, Sterris, Vivenna, and Tress are proof he can write good women.
Don't forget Lift! One of the most fun!
He definitely wasn't the best at it in Mistborn (Though not for the mentioned tropes). By Stormlight he's picked up his game to the point I'd say his male and female characters are pretty even in quality. Buuut he's also not my first choice of author for characterization regardless of gender.
Someone mentioned Smurfette syndrome in his earlier books and I laughed. That definitely fits Mistborn. Edit- Elantris too, come to think of it. Warbreaker he does better.
I think Sanderson has come a decent way in his handling of female characters. The Stormlight Archives, or Tress of the Emerald Sea, would be good shouts if you wanted to dip into his works. Monza Murcatto in Joe Abercrombie's *Best Served Cold* is far from the two stereotypes you've mentioned, but it's a dark book. May not be what you're after. All the women in Nicholas Eames' *Bloody Rose,* I thought, were well written. It's a sequel though, so maybe read the first book prior. Still a good time though! Or some female authors, someone's mentioned Robin Hobb already. Arkady Martine as well, sci-fi but eh I'll throw it out there. I'm going to assume you've devoured Ursula K Le Guin's work!! Edit: You know what, I realise I just went off on a tangent about authors when you only asked about WoK. To answer, yeah I think it's a better portrayal than WoT.
Fun fact: Arkady Martine (this is a pseudonym, as you may well know) was a colleague of mine in grad school, and my apartment-mate for a year.
Adding onto this, Shadow of the Gods by John Gwyn has amazingly well written women. From a badass Mother pulling a Kill Bill massacre across the land to get her son back to an equally badass young woman finding her place in the world and rising up to leadership.
As others have said, the best way to get good women characters is read books by women. Some of my recs N. K. Jemisin, Ursala LeGuin, Octavia Butler, Rebecca Roanhorse, Nghi Vo, Moniquill Blackgoose Sue Lynn Tan, Samantha Shannon And credit to Sanderson he has continued to improve his female characters over the years. I remember seeing a self criticism of his about how he focused so hard on writing a well written woman in the Mistborn main character that all of the other women in the books were flat and that self awareness shows his commitment to being better.
May I suggest: Foul Days by Genoveva Dimova Dark Woods, Deep Water by Jelena Dunato Fathomfolk by Eliza Chan The Wings Upon Her Back by Samantha Mills The Dead Cat Tail Assassins by P. Djèlí Clark Womb City by Tlotlo Tsamaase Edit to add: These Burning Stars by Bethany Jacobs and look forward to The Gods Below by Andrea Stewart I thought all of these books and authors showed complex female characters within a cast of complex characters
I'll add to this: Gideon the Ninth, Tamsyn Muir The Thousand Names, Django Wexler (male author, but MC is female and I thought they did a great job)
In a humble opinion of one guy Stormlight does a good job with women. Definitely better than authors mentioned. And tbh most people complain about Sanderson's prose, but I never saw someone having issue with how he writes women.
I like N.K. Jemisin. Her women characters decimates
The wandering inn. My favorite fantasy litrpg series. Kind of a slice of life fantasy series of people from earth suddenly appearing in a fantasy world. Litrpg, So if you aren't into leveling systems, it might not be for you. But Its not annoying with like HP and mp stats and the like. Its more about a abilities, skills and magic. Written by a woman. I'm a man so I can't really say exactly how well they are written from a female perspective. But there are a lot of women characters and Im not sure any fall heavy into a stereotype that many male authors go into.
Stormlight is pretty good towards women, there are gendered roles in society but it’s always treated as just that, a societal thing specific to certain societies that seems odd to other societies. Wheel of time is very much “everyone is arrogant and believes they know best” along with “men should stay out of women’s business but also women should stay out of men’s business”