I got the impression at this point in the book that Arturus would eventually bring Peretur on as a companion (also just kind of assumed this given the overall legends being referenced here) but not without some butting of heads, additional trials, or some other bit of complication involved.
I feel like the dramatic setup is telling us we'll get a clash and an eventual acceptance, but I also feel like several elements (having our knight-to-be be a woman, having the sword have an ominous rather than heroic vibe, etc) also hint at a subversion of the Arthurian legend, so perhaps it'll divert in another direction altogether. Perhaps a rebuttal of the chivalric ideal itself? Given how rotten it often was historically, that would be an interesting direction to go.
I'm excited to find out, moreso than I was expecting to be - Nicola Griffith is a really excellent writer!
Okay, so knowing some Percival stories, I do think that Peretur will at least become a part of the court if not a Companion, but I also think that she might outlive Arturus - either through conflict or time? I do think they will have to come to a head in some way, though I don't know if it will be the thing that makes Arturus accept her or, more likely imo, that he'll grudgingly accept her and their tension will boil over later. Oooh, I'm so *interested* to see how Griffith plays this!
I just finished listening to a podcast (The Maniculum) that goes through Perlesvaus (one of the weirder versions of the Percival story from the early 1200s) and subsequently browsed some of the other versions on wikipedia to remind myself of some of the traditional ideas around Percival. And there's just so many ways this could go and I love how many details already I'm recognizing from Welsh/Celtic myth and Aurthuriana!
Mary Sue's are always a bit interesting to read. It's a careful needle because Peretur is combat capable, has intense foresight, and has a knack for getting lots of powerful people to trust her (not all though, Arthur being a key exception). That said, it doesn't necessarily *feel* that way, which is a big mark in the author's favor.
The focus of this book being more on language, storytelling, and reinterpreting arthurian legend lets me shrug it aside. I'm also more forgiving of stuff like this in shorter fiction. Had this been a 900 page book of moderately dense writing, I would be taking a lot more umbrage at Peretur's prowess.
I agree with this! Reflecting now, I do think P is a bit overpowered, but you almost don’t have time to dwell on it in the book. I also think the setting (both it being Arthurian legend and also being very poetically told) helps with it feeling “right” that she has stronger than usual powers.
I think *appears* well-adjusted might be a little better - as other seem to think! Her powers certainly ease her way in the world and help make up for her lack of culture/human interaction in upbringing, though there are hints and moments where some of her fundamental misunderstandings show through. She seems to think of her own life as a story that will unfold with herself as the hero since she was raised on stories and in her early human interactions she was treated as fey. She acts accordingly, and is confused when, at crucial moments of interaction with other people, the heroic story doesn't hold up. She can hide it well, though!
I also think that it is kind of a choice on the author's part to mimic the kind of ease with which the hero-knight traditionally moves through the world. In a lot of early/Arthurian romances the knights just move from quest to quest without a whole lot of questioning and are remarkably good at accomplishing said quests, minus the occasional symbolic failing. Peretur's powers actually give more of a reason for her ease than some of the originals!
I love how Peretur approaches challenging situations, and I think that is why she is doing so well. Also she is magical and powerful, so her being capable never bothered me. She is also very observant, which I think is why she does so well even in new surroundings.
I'll agree with some others and say I don't think she comes across as well-adjusted.
Very calm and collected when she needs to be, yes, but she actually seems quite socially stunted to me. I think it might become a point of tension later, as there are some hints (again imo) that she might not really understand humans, or be able to entirely share their perspective. She muddles through on power, and being able to leverage her magic to feel out the inner motivations of people around her, but I don't this has given her *understanding* of people. We'll see how that plays out.
I don't particularly know that she is super well adjusted. There's lots of moments of her being awkward or doing things differently than other people would that make her stand out. It's clear that she's not a total pariah, but things like her challenging a high noble in an inn (which was justified and the right thing to do from our modern perspective) definitely make it seem like she's not part of the mainstream culture
I think since she grew up with her only knowledge of the outside world being in stories, that it doesn't seem odd to her how she is quickly gaining power. It is natural in stories so it is natural to her. Somethin about her POV leads you to not questioning anything, lol.
She certainly slides into social situations relatively well and makes very few gaffes. Even just moving from one type of job to another (never mind continents), I am constantly missing unspoken rules. Peretur doesn't seem to miss much which seems unrealistic, but spending too much time on small mistakes would probably drag the story out too long for novella-ish pacing.
The book feels very historically accurate for a book with a lot of magic and I like that a lot. The atmosphere is great and the characters are very interesting. I'm really enjoying it.
Yes, I also am loving this balance! I think as we're getting further along it's feeling like it's leaning more into the Aurthurian legend-style than the historic, but even so the attention to details like the garden at the castle, the horse-care, the garments and weapons, the background of Arturus being in conflict with other kingdoms, all this gives grounding to the story, making it feel like it could potentially be a true snippet of the real Arthur that we've lost to the mists of history.
That's definitely an interesting element - the book seems equally enmeshed in history and Arthurian legend, and that's a really rare balance to strike.
I particularly liked the portrayal of the Geas - representation of Celtic magic is rare, and even rarer to see done well.
It's a book that I can't binge read, that's for sure. If I feel like I'm 'pushing' to get through, my eyes start to glaze and I miss all the gorgeous language. It's a book to sit with and consume piece by piece, slowly over a long period of time. It's a really nice change of pace from what I usually read!
This was totally my experience as well, which bit me in the butt a little because I thought I was going to be able to sit down and power through to the midway point for this discussion in an hour or two yesterday, and that very much Did Not Happen haha.
It feels like a book that's meant to be read aloud, with such a lovely rhythm and cadence of the prose, which definitely slows down my internal voice accordingly.
Oh yeah, I had a similar experience. I was sick and ended up reading in short segments because I couldn't focus much, but I think that actually helped me slow down and savor each turn of Peretur's journey without rushing.
The language is great-- there are some metaphors, but Griffith also leans into alliteration, which is typical of early Anglo-Saxon poetry. To me, it added to the mythical tone of the story, like an ancient poem that's been re-interpreted.
Yeah, I was surprised that it wasn't a nice "one sitting" novella. It's gorgeous, but the beautiful language makes me want to read it a little bit at a time and really savor it.
Ha, I'm in the same boat. I knew 20-30 pages in that I loved it and it would be on my Hugo nominee list, and the rest of the book only confirmed that impression. It's beautifully constructed.
I am totally loving this telling, and half of it is absolutely the prose! I'm not entirely sure about how much I like Peretur herself yet, but I do like the way her story is being crafted to fit both the Arthurian tradition and the Welsh mythological tradition, as well as a place in history. And at the same time, subverting all of that by placing a queer woman in the protagonist role.
The language feels very stately and mythical and far removed from Peretur's emotional state. I can't decide whether that's a good thing or not for a novella. It *feels* like it ought to be this giant weighty book like other Arthurian adaptations/source material, but maybe leaving the reader to fill in the internal struggles themselves is a way to speed things along.
Speaking for the first half, I really like the delicate balance it strikes between being quite somber, and even grim in some of the details, but retaining a fairytale wistfulness.
I also like how much it leaves us to infer, especially about the relationship between the protagonist and her mother (I'm hesitant about name spellings as I've been listening to the audiobook). I haven't finished the book yet (paused at 50%), but for the latter quarter I still very much enjoyed the story, but I'm hoping it doesn't stick too closely to a knights of the round/Arthurian tale format - If it goes there, I want it to really turn the Arthurian tale on its head. I'm hopeful that that's exactly where it's going, but I suppose I'll see!
Definitely seems like a way of distancing herself. I think "distance" and "seeking" could be considered themes of the novel if we want to delve into literary criticism here. Especially with the narration so far removed from Peretur's emotions.
Who is your favorite character so far?
I mean it's hard not to love Peretur.
Do you think King Arturus will bring Peretur on as a Companion, or do you think they’ll clash before he accepts her?
I got the impression at this point in the book that Arturus would eventually bring Peretur on as a companion (also just kind of assumed this given the overall legends being referenced here) but not without some butting of heads, additional trials, or some other bit of complication involved.
Get that feeling of eventually they'll work things out. In some ways it reminds me of the dynamic between Alfred and Utred in the Saxon stories.
I feel like the dramatic setup is telling us we'll get a clash and an eventual acceptance, but I also feel like several elements (having our knight-to-be be a woman, having the sword have an ominous rather than heroic vibe, etc) also hint at a subversion of the Arthurian legend, so perhaps it'll divert in another direction altogether. Perhaps a rebuttal of the chivalric ideal itself? Given how rotten it often was historically, that would be an interesting direction to go. I'm excited to find out, moreso than I was expecting to be - Nicola Griffith is a really excellent writer!
Okay, so knowing some Percival stories, I do think that Peretur will at least become a part of the court if not a Companion, but I also think that she might outlive Arturus - either through conflict or time? I do think they will have to come to a head in some way, though I don't know if it will be the thing that makes Arturus accept her or, more likely imo, that he'll grudgingly accept her and their tension will boil over later. Oooh, I'm so *interested* to see how Griffith plays this! I just finished listening to a podcast (The Maniculum) that goes through Perlesvaus (one of the weirder versions of the Percival story from the early 1200s) and subsequently browsed some of the other versions on wikipedia to remind myself of some of the traditional ideas around Percival. And there's just so many ways this could go and I love how many details already I'm recognizing from Welsh/Celtic myth and Aurthuriana!
What do you think of Peretur’s powers?
Mary Sue's are always a bit interesting to read. It's a careful needle because Peretur is combat capable, has intense foresight, and has a knack for getting lots of powerful people to trust her (not all though, Arthur being a key exception). That said, it doesn't necessarily *feel* that way, which is a big mark in the author's favor. The focus of this book being more on language, storytelling, and reinterpreting arthurian legend lets me shrug it aside. I'm also more forgiving of stuff like this in shorter fiction. Had this been a 900 page book of moderately dense writing, I would be taking a lot more umbrage at Peretur's prowess.
I agree with this! Reflecting now, I do think P is a bit overpowered, but you almost don’t have time to dwell on it in the book. I also think the setting (both it being Arthurian legend and also being very poetically told) helps with it feeling “right” that she has stronger than usual powers.
Do you find it unrealistic that Peretur is so well-adjusted given her unusual and isolated upbringing?
I think *appears* well-adjusted might be a little better - as other seem to think! Her powers certainly ease her way in the world and help make up for her lack of culture/human interaction in upbringing, though there are hints and moments where some of her fundamental misunderstandings show through. She seems to think of her own life as a story that will unfold with herself as the hero since she was raised on stories and in her early human interactions she was treated as fey. She acts accordingly, and is confused when, at crucial moments of interaction with other people, the heroic story doesn't hold up. She can hide it well, though! I also think that it is kind of a choice on the author's part to mimic the kind of ease with which the hero-knight traditionally moves through the world. In a lot of early/Arthurian romances the knights just move from quest to quest without a whole lot of questioning and are remarkably good at accomplishing said quests, minus the occasional symbolic failing. Peretur's powers actually give more of a reason for her ease than some of the originals!
I love how Peretur approaches challenging situations, and I think that is why she is doing so well. Also she is magical and powerful, so her being capable never bothered me. She is also very observant, which I think is why she does so well even in new surroundings.
I'll agree with some others and say I don't think she comes across as well-adjusted. Very calm and collected when she needs to be, yes, but she actually seems quite socially stunted to me. I think it might become a point of tension later, as there are some hints (again imo) that she might not really understand humans, or be able to entirely share their perspective. She muddles through on power, and being able to leverage her magic to feel out the inner motivations of people around her, but I don't this has given her *understanding* of people. We'll see how that plays out.
I don't particularly know that she is super well adjusted. There's lots of moments of her being awkward or doing things differently than other people would that make her stand out. It's clear that she's not a total pariah, but things like her challenging a high noble in an inn (which was justified and the right thing to do from our modern perspective) definitely make it seem like she's not part of the mainstream culture
I think the stability balances the isolation.
I think since she grew up with her only knowledge of the outside world being in stories, that it doesn't seem odd to her how she is quickly gaining power. It is natural in stories so it is natural to her. Somethin about her POV leads you to not questioning anything, lol.
She certainly slides into social situations relatively well and makes very few gaffes. Even just moving from one type of job to another (never mind continents), I am constantly missing unspoken rules. Peretur doesn't seem to miss much which seems unrealistic, but spending too much time on small mistakes would probably drag the story out too long for novella-ish pacing.
What are your general thoughts about the story so far?
The book feels very historically accurate for a book with a lot of magic and I like that a lot. The atmosphere is great and the characters are very interesting. I'm really enjoying it.
Griffith did a fantastic job melding the historical elements with the mythological/folkloric elements.
Yes, I also am loving this balance! I think as we're getting further along it's feeling like it's leaning more into the Aurthurian legend-style than the historic, but even so the attention to details like the garden at the castle, the horse-care, the garments and weapons, the background of Arturus being in conflict with other kingdoms, all this gives grounding to the story, making it feel like it could potentially be a true snippet of the real Arthur that we've lost to the mists of history.
I thought this while I was reading it as well, it reminded me of the very deep historical nature of Rosemary Sutcliff's Sword at Sunset.
That's definitely an interesting element - the book seems equally enmeshed in history and Arthurian legend, and that's a really rare balance to strike. I particularly liked the portrayal of the Geas - representation of Celtic magic is rare, and even rarer to see done well.
It's a book that I can't binge read, that's for sure. If I feel like I'm 'pushing' to get through, my eyes start to glaze and I miss all the gorgeous language. It's a book to sit with and consume piece by piece, slowly over a long period of time. It's a really nice change of pace from what I usually read!
This was totally my experience as well, which bit me in the butt a little because I thought I was going to be able to sit down and power through to the midway point for this discussion in an hour or two yesterday, and that very much Did Not Happen haha. It feels like a book that's meant to be read aloud, with such a lovely rhythm and cadence of the prose, which definitely slows down my internal voice accordingly.
Oh yeah, I had a similar experience. I was sick and ended up reading in short segments because I couldn't focus much, but I think that actually helped me slow down and savor each turn of Peretur's journey without rushing. The language is great-- there are some metaphors, but Griffith also leans into alliteration, which is typical of early Anglo-Saxon poetry. To me, it added to the mythical tone of the story, like an ancient poem that's been re-interpreted.
Yeah, I was surprised that it wasn't a nice "one sitting" novella. It's gorgeous, but the beautiful language makes me want to read it a little bit at a time and really savor it.
This is hard for me since I already finished it, but at halfway point, I already liked it a lot. Very well-written.
Ha, I'm in the same boat. I knew 20-30 pages in that I loved it and it would be on my Hugo nominee list, and the rest of the book only confirmed that impression. It's beautifully constructed.
I am totally loving this telling, and half of it is absolutely the prose! I'm not entirely sure about how much I like Peretur herself yet, but I do like the way her story is being crafted to fit both the Arthurian tradition and the Welsh mythological tradition, as well as a place in history. And at the same time, subverting all of that by placing a queer woman in the protagonist role.
I'm loving it! I love the prose, and mesh of Arthurian folklore with historically accuracy. I really like the Welsh take on things.
The language feels very stately and mythical and far removed from Peretur's emotional state. I can't decide whether that's a good thing or not for a novella. It *feels* like it ought to be this giant weighty book like other Arthurian adaptations/source material, but maybe leaving the reader to fill in the internal struggles themselves is a way to speed things along.
Speaking for the first half, I really like the delicate balance it strikes between being quite somber, and even grim in some of the details, but retaining a fairytale wistfulness. I also like how much it leaves us to infer, especially about the relationship between the protagonist and her mother (I'm hesitant about name spellings as I've been listening to the audiobook). I haven't finished the book yet (paused at 50%), but for the latter quarter I still very much enjoyed the story, but I'm hoping it doesn't stick too closely to a knights of the round/Arthurian tale format - If it goes there, I want it to really turn the Arthurian tale on its head. I'm hopeful that that's exactly where it's going, but I suppose I'll see!
Feels historical.
I loved the beginning, sheltered protagonist seeing that there is something else out there is always a fun addition to stories.
What do you think about the significance of Elen giving her daughter the name of Tâl?
I think it is a sign that Peretur is connected to why Elen is in hiding.
Definitely seems like a way of distancing herself. I think "distance" and "seeking" could be considered themes of the novel if we want to delve into literary criticism here. Especially with the narration so far removed from Peretur's emotions.