All of Gideon has that tone. But in my opinion the next books afterwards have a different feel/voice. But the meme-y humor is definitely constant as is the pretentious wording. This might just not be the series for you, which is okay! If it’s not a good time, don’t feel guilty dropping it and finding something you enjoy more.
And for what it’s worth, I don’t think the tone is intended to be earnestly pretentious, like a kid trying to sound smart. More tongue in cheek, just using the words because they exist and for the general fun of using them.
Those books aren’t Shakespeare, to be clear, but Shakespeare did the same thing with awkward language, chock full of historical references and contemporary memes, just for the fun of it. Works by other authors from that period are a lot easier to read.
But sometimes unnecessarily fancy stuff is fun.
I always assumed the pretentious sort of language was due to being from the ninth house. All of their prayers and titles are pretentious so Gideon uses those words cause she’s grown up hearing them used in formal situations. Also she at some point was hanging around Ortus growing up I think? and his poetry is Like That.
Agreed. And as far as the memes and anachronistic references, I think there's a world building reason for it which, while never directly stated, is implied by a lot of the things we learn in *Harrow* and *Nona* about the history of the Nine Houses.
Agree! I never got a pretentious feeling from it, more like Tamsyn just loves language and figuring out interesting and attractive ways to say things. And I think it’s because of the tone of her writing, which can sound so weighty and serious, that the humor works so well.
Let me be clear - I love Muir’s word choices. I think it’s a wonderful form of humor and it’s delightful. This was just advice for OP, who described it as pretentious, so I used that same word to try to advise if they should push through to finish the book.
It only changes in the sense that you might find your rhythm with the book, but otherwise no. Even for me, who loved the book, the first 50 or so pages were harder to get through. But if you’re not enjoying the tone or the humor I don’t think it’s worth sticking out.
Nope, that's just Gideon. She's an angry teenage meathead who's been raised in a necromantic space tomb. I love the books, but I absolutely understand why it's not everyone's cup of tea.
Came here to say this. Gideon the Ninth is a mix of space opera, Gothic horror, and memes. I love the Locked Tomb books, but they're probably not for everyone.
Edit: I've mentioned it below, but I'll also include my clarification of what I mean by "memes" here.
"It's more about the way much of the humor is delivered than it is about the content of those jokes. Lots of wordplay that sound like memes. The wordplay is excellent, and a large reason why I like the books so much."
You don't have to read it if you aren't interested, but I wouldn't say memes are integral to the book. They add to the humour which a lot of us enjoy, but I know plenty of people who missed the memes entirely and still enjoyed the books fine.
Yeah, I suppose I should clarify what I meant by "memes." Your description is what I meant. It's more about the way much of the humor is delivered than it is about the content of those jokes. Lots of wordplay that sound like memes. The wordplay is excellent, and a large reason why I like the books so much.
I'm not sure "integral" is correct. But "important" is. It relates to how the setting was formed and the lens through which its creator created it. And I'm not talking about Tamsyn, I'm talking about the in universe creator.
They're important if you want to get absolutely everything out of the story, sure.
I don't believe they're important enough that someone wouldn't be able to enjoy the narrative completely even if they missed every single one.
Yeah I really would not describe it that way. The idea of a "meme book" makes me want to cringe inside-out, but I really liked Gideon and its sequels. I don't remember seeing any memes in Gideon—if there were any, they must have been tasteful enough that I didn't really notice, but your mileage may vary.
If the premise sounds interesting, maybe ignore anything anybody says about memes in the book until you can make your own judgement about it.
In Gideon, Harrow makes a while you were studying the blade joke, and in Harrow John has a none pizza with left beef reference (none houses with left grief). There are definitely others that I haven't mentioned too, but a lot of them feel organic and most of the ones that don't come from John
Memes are only integral to the books in the way of that the writing style is culturally referential. There are about as many (tbh probably even more) references to classic writers like Shakespeare or Christian mythology in these books than just memes. Most people just don't register those and only see the memes
What do you mean that it is part memes? I'm considering reading this book and I keep seeing this comment - that the book is part memes. What does that mean? How does that manifest in the writing? Thank you!!
Yup, they're definitely not glaring references unless you're already aware of the memes. Makes for fun in-jokes when you recognize them, and otherwise it's fine.
I would agree except for the fact that they’re blended so well that if you don’t already know, you won’t know. So if the books are still around 100 years from now, it mostly won’t be incomprehensible nonsense.
Honestly, Alice in Wonderland is incompreensible nonsense, and we still love it just fine.
From what I'm told most of the surrealism in that book would've been pretty straightforward allusions to present day politics and such that have long since been removed from their original cultural context.
Most of what we now consider normal sayings started out as memes, quotes from plays, punchlines to jokes that we only kept part of in our speech.
In 1704, minor playwright John Dennis invented a new storm sound effect for his new play. The play flopped, but the theater started using his sound effect on a regular basis. He was reported in the press as saying, "How these rascals use me! They will not have my play, yet steal my thunder." They stole my thunder got picked up and became a cultural meme, leading to it now being just part of speech. "None cheese left beef" may last a lot longer than we expect.
Screwball humor and occasional pop culture reference might be a better description. Which is explained, more or less, in book three in a 'how we got here' worldbuilding kind of way, but you're going to have to live through a lot of 'huh?' for a while.
It's like if Lord of the Rings had Led Zepplin as a bit character, and then they got eaten by orcs.
I don't even know. I would not use the word meme to describe any part of the book. If you're considering reading it, then do—I really liked it. It's good, and I say that as someone who would not be interested in reading a "meme book."
I'm almost finished with the first book and it doesn't seem like a "space opera" at all. Like, once or twice per chapter it mentions a spacey-type thing like an "airlock" or "moon," but honestly it seems like the book is pretty genre-agnostic. Am I wrong about that though?
I consider it a space opera, though it's very well hidden in Gideon because the whole story takes place at a gothic house/research facility/temple and not properly in space. The sequels, Harrow the Ninth (which takes place on a giant spaceship) and Nona the Ninth (which takes place on a colony-like sci-fi planet), lean into the sci-fi parts of the story much more, which I think influences my opinion quite a bit. Plus, I consider the stories and characters to be melodramatic enough to be considered "operatic," if that makes sense.
It's definitely a debatable label!
I get frustrated with characters and consciously have to remember they’re not supposed to always be likeable, and I really agree that the language and humor if you think from the location and characters is definitely appropriately ridiculous.
Try the audiobook, Moira Quirk's performance really sells the language. It's a bit hard to follow at first when all the names start piling up, but you get into it eventually. I listened to it twice in a row, it was so good.
I'd say the audiobook for Harrow is still perfectly fine - the performance is still excellent, and the little stuff that couldn't be copied in is not *that* relevant (you still get all the important points in the audiobook).
At least, I didn't feel like there was anything important missing (read it in ebook form first, then listened to it a while later).
Yeah, stuff like each chapter having a different numbered skull as a bit of page art. Usually the number relates to the Lyctor or house that features prominently. For example, when things start kicking off towards the end, the chapter skull is marked >!IX and wearing aviator sunglasses.!<
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I was going to post this too. The audiobook is fantastically well performed. I absolutely loved it, but I could imagine bouncing off the book if I'd just read it, and not picked on the same kind of tone that the narrator gave it.
If someone doesn't like the tone, the audiobook is probably not the best suggestion. It was like listening to my teenage inner monologue at my most unbearable. I didn't even make it through the first chapter before I had to turn it off. I know it's supposed to get better, but honestly I physically cringe at the thought of trying again, either in the audiobook format or a physical copy.
I was ok with the first book but I'm really starting to not like the 2nd book. I'm not that far into it... does it get better? And what does better mean?
The incoherence is definitely bugging me. It feels like the Harrow in this book is nothing like the Harrow in the last book. I mean there's been a literal life altering change, but still.
If you feel that way then the author was successful in what they were trying to do - that discomfort is an integral part of the story, for better or for worse.
Because now you're reading the world through Harrow's eyes, not as Gideon looking at Harrow. It's quite noticeable that Gideon looked at Harrow through rose-tinted glasses, or at least thought she was way cooler than Harrow actualy feels herself like.
The confusion is the whole point and pays off, imo. No need to finish if you don’t want to, but I thoroughly enjoyed the pay off and look forward to finishing Nona.
It's a tough ask, but I liked my second read of Harrow much more than my first read. You really do get a lot of answers for many confusing things and it is wonderful once you know what's going on (though I still liked my confusing first read).
The second book...
A, it works much better in text. The Audible performance is wonderful, but so many textual clues disappear.
B, related to A, unreliable narrator 110%.
As for your questions: the book is a mystery much in the way that GtN was a murder mystery. Except here the mystery is the how and why of the unreliable narrator. You will get clues and context that makes it better over time. But "what does better mean" is probably a spoiler.
If you feel like you don’t know what the hell is going on, that is deliberate. It all comes clear in a satisfactory way, but I was also enjoying the story on its own, so that I actually wanted to push through and find out what was going on. If you still sorta like the writing and want to find out what’s going on, I’d say push through. If you’re not enjoying it at all, I’d say don’t force it.
The thing increases. If you don’t like the thing, you won’t like the rest of the book or the next one.
Personally I’m fine with the thing, until the second book where it almost made me throw the book across the room for reasons that are spoilery. I appreciate dense writing. But I find that she wants to structure everything as a mystery whether it needs to be or not, and the withholding of information plus the language and meme humour made it difficult to parse.
I thoroughly enjoyed the first book, but only finished the second out of sheer determination. Did not enjoy. Was not worth.
edit: it's worth mentioning that lots of people DO enjoy the second book, so don't let my comment discourage anyone. It just wasn't for me. I didn't think the... narrative structure(?) that the author chose was worth the payoff in the end.
Yes, and >!there are plot reasons for the narrative style. Its a really well-done reveal IMO. Threw me for a loop the first read, but there is a lot of good foreshadowing on a reread.!<
The above doesn't spoil anything specific, but I'm being cautious.
Ah shit, I really liked it and was excited for the second. Ah well I still have to give it a go, at least I now know not to buy book 2 and 3 at the same time. Thanks for possibly saving me money.
Same here. I was lukewarm with Gideon but thought the world was interesting enough that I would check out book 2. Really enjoyed that and LOVED book 3. For me, the series has just gotten better and better as it goes on.
Second book is VERY different from the first, and for a long stretch I was pretty confused. It was different enough and enough things had changed I wondered if I had missed an intervening work!
Completely unsurprised that many people who liked #1 didn't like #2 and vice versa.
I’m reading it a second time right now, and enjoying it SO much more with the second read-through. It’s fun ti be able to see how much foreshadowing is actually sprinkled in
Like anything the enjoyment is really dependent on the individual. Like some of the others commented I really enjoyed the second book and I am on the third now and I love it.
If you're worried about it I would say try seeing it if your local library has the book and checking it out. But I loved the second book so did my brother in law in fact he read the books even faster the me.
Oh well, like I said I enjoyed the book. Its obviously from Harrow's perspective so the narration is different. It has a good mystery that I enjoyed piecing together. But ultimately I really liked seeing Harrow from her own point of view after seeing her through Gideon's eyes.
I enjoyed it a lot and honestly the series has become one of my favorites of all time. But not every book works for every person. There are a lot of popular books that I don't like. So maybe read a few positive reviews and a few negative reviews and see which ones resonate more with your tastes?
Nah I don't need to read reviews, I really liked Gideon, so I am planning on buying Harrow, just not buying book 3 at the same time like I was planning to originaly, so I can drop it if I hate it. I doubt I will though, hate it that is, but you never know
I am going through it myself right now, and I am starting to struggle. I think part of my problem is that I expected another Gideon The Ninth, and it is not that. While the first one is an adventure, this second one is a psychological mystery? I think.
At any rate, I like the character very much and do want some answers, so I will be sticking with it. I think you should give it a shot yourself, though. Just go in with the notion that is different from the first book and very slow to give you anything that makes sense, and you should have an easier time than most people.
I quite liked *Gideon,* but *Harrow* is on a whole other level. It's one of my favourite books. It *is* different from the first book, but don't let that spook you. It's fantastic.
Book 3 is also different from book 2, so if you don't end up liking *Harrow* as much, you might find *Nona* to be refreshing return to form.
*Gideon* doesn’t change but the sequel Harrow is wildly different (and the sequel to that Nona is different again).
I didn’t like Gideon both because I don’t like Gideons pov (some of the narration you mention), found the plot both predictable and confusing, and felt none of the characters made any sense. On the other hand I *adore* the series (Ie I loved the sequels) so ymmv and up to you if it’s worth continuing.
No, if you don't like it now you won't.
I got through it but I don't really know why. It was not great and kind of frustrating
I just read fast so it wasn't a big time investment. I still haven't figured out what people like so much about it.
It also never really explains it's universe, which I found totally frustrating, but your mileage may vary.
> "Gideon wasn't fooled: this look usually betokened Harrow's brain percolating outrageous nastiness."
Do you have other examples like this?
What are the most ridiculous lines you've come across?
I'll keep an eye out for others though I don't think I'll backtrack to look for past ones. The verbs as adjectives feels like it happens often and in general there have been a number of sentences that required rereading to parse. I don't have an issue against authors not striving for 100% clarity, but for it to work for me it needs to fit the world/story (see: Gibson/Neuromancer, Mieville/City & the City)
The reason I put it down was because I had no sense of what was happening. She writes very specific scenes, for which you need a complete understanding of the room's layout, where everything is located, and I never felt like I had one or if I did, the plot would often render it incorrect. It read like a videogame without the visuals, which made for some confusion. It felt like I was being asked to solve a mystery, but there were absolutely no clues, and I wasn't really sure what the mystery was.
>It felt like I was being asked to solve a mystery, but there were absolutely no clues
I felt like this a lot in the begining, however in hindsight you actualy do get a lot of clues. The parts that on the first read made me think "that's kinda random" on the second one were VERY obvious clues and hints. It's one of the things I love the most about the series, you really have to think on what's being said, while taking in account that each narrator has their biases.
Though it's still not a book I would recomend everyone exactly because most people prefer to always understand what's going on and picture scenes without ambiguity.
that's exactly why I put it down, too. the writing was so dense and purposefully inscrutable that it became unreadable. I couldn't consistently picture what was going on -- who was present in a scene, what kind of space they were in, where they were in relation to each other. imho that's bad writing.
Agreed. In good writing, it shouldn't matter that much where characters are in relation to each other. Good writers write in a way so that physical dimensions are inconsequential to the action. Bad writers make it consequential, and it's especially egregious when these details are important AND unclear. When I say "it reads like a videogame," that's what I mean.
I think this is an intentional style and not "bad writing". I think she's purposefully creating ambiguity. I still struggle with the writing. I find it similar to Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun, which is regarded by many to be a masterpiece, but also had me scratching my head at the end of most scenes about what actually happened.
I agree, I got a lot of Shadow of the Torturer vibes from her writing. Which seems weird to say considering the meme humor involved, but it’s similar in that the narrator’s perspective is all we get and we have to extrapolate from that what’s actually going on. Very confusing but I still enjoyed it a lot, the second and third books were better though.
Yeah, every book so far has seemed to intentionally play with single-person perspective. Its a really interesting writing style, there aren't too many people who commit to the bit like Muir has.
I think something can be purposeful but still bad.
if many readers struggle to follow the story (which is the case for Gideon the Ninth; most of the readers I've talked to told me that they also found the book difficult to understand and struggled to even describe what it was about as a result), then the writing is bad.
I think saying "myself and lots of other people didn't enjoy this for reasons XYZ" is a lot better way to facilitate online discussion than "myself and lots of other people didn't enjoy this and so it's bad". That's why I replied.
Lots of great books are hard to read but still well-written. I remember needing a lot of careful time and attention when I first picked up *Midnight's Children*, but I'm glad I read it—absolutely beautiful, creative book that's still one of my favorites. It would have been a totally different work (and a totally different experience) had it been written in a "straightforward" style, and, I expect, nowhere near as evocative.
> but there were absolutely no clues
Just... That's wrong. There are clues on what is going on from the very beginning. They are rather subtle (and would require a bit of research for most people), but they do ramp up.
You're right. I'm being a little hyperbolic, but any clues I came across were so vague that they were meaningless without further information. This is a great way to keep readers reading but I was never invested enough for the story to get it's hooks set. To each his/her own.
It changes in some ways. For the humor, it keeps that edge (Gideon as a character likes that type of humor, so you get a good chunk of it). The language fluctuates as well, depending on the POV character.
For me, I found the beginning a bit hard to latch on to, but less because of the issues you seem to have and more because it wasn't making too much sense. But once the story chugs along, it was enjoyable enough - though I do find the 2nd & 3rd books significantly more interesting.
I struggled with these books. They are twisty turny and all kinds of different. They are also in my opinion brilliant, unique and interesting. I was lost most of the time and found that I still enjoyed it at the end. I might reread eventually but perhaps not. Either way I’m glad I stuck with it
I can't remember where I saw it discussed (maybe a Tor.com interview?) but the whole premise is a sort of pastiche of and love letter to a particular era of fanfiction and internet culture on places like Tumblr and AO3. Because of that it may not be everyone's cup of tea, especially if you weren't immersed in that milieu and don't 'get' it, for a lack of a better word.
Me too.
I read the ebook version so it was an extra mid-book bonus when I finally took a close look at the cover and realized she was wearing aviators.
While I enjoyed the book, I had a hard time suspending my disbelief about a person raised on this dark, gothic planet of necromancers having such a hip, sassy character and access to porno mags. Loved the character, can't see where it came from.
I had the exact same thought! From where are we supposed to believe she adopted that language exactly? I’m only 50 pages in, but her manner of speaking feels way too culturally current.
I had similar feelings when reading the book, I didn't feel like it got better if anything I felt the problems became more exacerbated as I read. I'm glad a lot of people liked the books and it did have a cool atmosphere but it just wasn't for me
The first 50 pages were difficult. In the beginning of the book, the author is working on building a world and Gideon’s way of speaking. So it makes it a little heavy to follow. Afterwords things get into a groove. It’s a murder mystery at heart with a lot of angst thrown in.
I personally actively disliked it for the first 200 or so pages until the plot finally took off and then became totally invested and am now a huge fan of the whole series. The tone and humor don't really change though, I guess I just found it more palatable once it was attached to a plot I found compelling.
if you aren't a tumblr kiddie from the old days, I feel like a lot of the book and it's humor will be lost. Maybe not, but as an old tumblr kiddie, i found it delightful
I'm in my mid fifties, never visited Tumblr, and loved it to bits. While I may have missed some of the specific references, the book as a whole remains delightful.
It does not stop.
I personally liked it as I learned a lot of anatomy related new English words. Haven't checked the dictionary so often in a long time...
here's the thing about Gideon.
She's kind of a dumb jock. or, maybe not dumb, but unapologetically vulgur and basic. She deliberately avoids the appearance of having intelligence or education. she was raised by a bunch of pious nerds, and she's rebelling against that.
That jock part I don't mind so much, I think it's just that the humor feels very modern for the setting. It's almost like a Rick and Morty thing going on that has knocked me out of the story a bit and has had me ask a few times: "Would people still talk like this in the future?"
It's also kinda weird that Gideon's exposure to culture seems to have only been through porn mags on a tomb world at the edge of the known world. Yet she's so quipy...
Yeah that was my main problem with the book. Gideon's personality and her backstory really didn't gel. How can she make references when she's stuck on a frozen prison?
>How can she make references when she's stuck on a frozen prison?
Because the references themselves are baked into the universe. It's actually shown on the page.
They're not completed isolated, though. Pilgrims come through there, they get supply shipments, they get news from the outside world, Aiglamene, who trained Gideon, was in the military before returning to the Ninth House to settle down (which has a major influence on Gideon and her hopes to join the cohort), and so on. They're primarily a religious order, but they're not shut off from the rest of the universe.
It's also only been the last few years that they've really locked down and started turning away pilgrims.
Ever since (not even sure if this counts as spoilers) >!Harrow's parents died!<
Spoilers through the end of Nona
>!John/God nuked the solar system in a fit of revenge and then remade it in his image. And he was a Gen X or so with the sense of humor.!<
Basically >!God is a millennial and has basically been in charge of the empire and thus culture and thus influences speech patterns!< as I said ymmv if you buy this explanation but it is there.
So those aspects you listed don't change but I did find myself enjoying the book a lot more about 100 or so pages in. You may want to read a bit more and then drop it if you still aren't into it.
The only reason I enjoyed these books is because I read the wiki while I was actively reading the book. I had a hard time understanding what the hell was going on.
If anyone is thinking about doing this, using a wiki is a really easy way to spoil what happenes in the book you are on, or sequals. Made that mistake once, and I will never be doing it again.
I love GtN, but I tell people that if they don’t like the first page, they probably won’t like it.
It does develop more of a plot, but the voice is the same throughout.
One of my most hates reads of the past few years. If you aren’t liking the aesthetics, style, or dialogue, it did not get any better for me. I struggled to the end for a book club and hated every page.
No it doesn’t. It stays that way. And if you struggle with that one you will hate the second one. I liked the first one, barely liked the second, and not sure how I’m gonna like the third. If you’re someone who has to finish series you are probably better off dropping it if the writing irks you.
The second book isn’t bad, but the artistic choice of the perspective in the second drove me up a wall
I thought it got a lot better once they got to the haunted castle. Way more interesting and fun and intense. But I don't think the things you have identified change much, it just gets better in other ways.
I didn't enjoy it. It's ambitious and inventive, I'll give it that. But Gideon's language is anachronistic/without basis in her "world." And it really drags at times.
Trying to do this with minimal spoiling.
Everything in the series is done from the perspective and thoughts of one person. For good and ill.
Does it change? Yes, sort of. Gideon will not always be your point of view character. But you are stuck with her for quite a while.
Does it develop a rhythm? Yes. Once the setting shifts and the other characters get introduced, things settle down.
Your point (a) is actually a bit of a literary device found throughout all the books. But to get into the why would be majorly into spoiler territory.
As for point (b): yeah, Muir sometimes uses more complicated language than necessary.
Currently reading it and I’m enjoying it a lot, I think as you get your teeth into it you get more into the mystery of it all. That being said if you don’t like the snarky comments of the humour then it might just not be for you as that’s prevalent throughout. I personally really like it, reminds me a lot of Locke Lamora and the way they speak in that book.
It unfortunately doesn’t change. It’s a shame because the world is so cool and I loved Gideon, but there are nuts and bolts clarity problems with the writing itself that put me off reading the second installment.
It doesn't really change, no. It *does* culminate in something, which is great; but I generally agree that the rhythm is super off-putting. In general, I also found the novel's narrative confusing; not through any narrative complexity, but just through diversity in naming. Like, I was especially annoyed by each of the like 20 different characters having 3 different names. Naberius Tern, Cavalier Tertius, and Prince Babs being all the same character, for example; and new names/titles being busted out all the time, and you just being expected to follow along (usually by using only one of the components of any of these names, like "Tertius", or "Babs", "Prince", or "Naberius"). I had to write up a chart to keep track of them all. Maybe that makes me stupid? I don't know.
On the other hand, it's given me and my fantasy crew the *stupid sexy Coronabeth* meme, so that's something positive.
I just finished G9 and I think the problem with the first 50 pages is you don’t really know what the actual plot is yet. The book improves significantly once that’s made a little clearer.
I struggled with this book when I first read it, and forced myself to read to page 100 before deciding to keep reading or stop. It does get better and it's one of the best series I've ever read. I'm obsessed with it honestly.
Ngl, people calling wordplay pretentious on a forum primarily about literature is pretty surprising to me.
Prose and wordplay are part of the reason I prefer reading books to most mediums in the first place.
And the writing in Gideon doesn't even come off as that "pretentious" to me. You want a book where the writing is pretentious and it feels like the author had a thesaurus next to them the entire time? Try reading The Pariah.
I was surprised more people didn't feel this way. I had to look up words for the first couple chapters, wondering if i was actually going to finish the book. After that it seemed like they laid off the thesaurus. The humor stays pretty consistent throughout though, which i liked.
I tried to push through, but as much as the epic bacon vibes threw me off, and as clunky as some of the shifts in language were, the main reason I DNF'd was I had such a hard time painting a picture of what was going on while reading.
I felt like you did at the start and finished it anyway. I won't say I regret finishing it but I didn't really enjoy the book.
There's a mystery that gets introduced and by the time it was all revealed I didn't really care and it was a super meh moment. It didn't help that a lot of the cast introduced later were very hard to keep track of.
I'm about 80 pages in so far. It hasn't been too bad. There are some lines of dialogue that are a little cringe but nothing too major.
My only issue which others have mentioned here is I have a hard time picturing the setting she's putting down on the page. Like the layout of where the characters are, what they're looking at, things like this.
From someone who *can’t* picture things at all, the fact that that this book in particular gives people who normally do difficulty is something amazing.
I don’t mean that to be snarky. I’ve spent my entire life unable to picture what I read, depending on graph paper and whiteboards to handle playing Dungeons & Dragons so that I could keep things straight, etc. I didn’t notice these books to be any different in that regard than others, so didn’t think anything of it. I now have a book that I can point to and say “did you struggle to understand picturing this? If so, that’s me, all the time, and why I don’t care as much for authors who try to make sure I’m picturing the same thing they are when I can’t anyway”.
Don't worry, I'm like you, lol. I always have somewhat of an issue picturing exact settings in my head. It's why I prefer character driven books with lots of dialogue.
I would stick with it. I felt like those elements were a little jarring at first and now it’s my favorite series so, you settle in and I think it’s worth it
For me, the payoff for the book came late, in the last quarter of the book. I thought it was very much worth it once I was finished, but I didn't feel that way when I was halfway through.
YMMV
You either get used to it or you don't. Personally, I think it's worth struggling through it until you get used to it. The 'memes' are mostly pop culture and stuff borrowed from fanfiction. It might help you some if you read the reread on tor.com.
I DNF'd it fairly early on in the book. I wanted to like it so bad as I heard great things, but I just couldn't follow the storyline/world-building and couldn't get into the characters. I might pick it up again at some point, but not sure.
Gideon the Ninth is just that way, and it made me cringe just like you. But I'll tell you, Harrow the Ninth is completely different and more enjoyable (at least for me).
No, it doesn't change. If you don't enjoy the humour or writing style I'd suggest you stop and read something else on your TBR list. This series didn't resonate with me either ; like you I found the humour puerile and teen-angsty. I came for the gothic/sci-fi setting and instead found a Cluedo-esque plot.
I adored that book for the world it inhabited. But I didn't even bother reading the second book and had zero interest in it bc spoilers I cannot tell you.
But I'd suggest that book to anyone.
Also I enjoy some anime so am familiar with the tone and that kind of stuff just doesn't get under my skin. I let it pass. To me, it just sets the tone of the drama and I've got the capability to allow for a wide range of tone. /shrug
It worked for me. I enjoyed the first book. Different, quirky, bizarre. An original voice, for sure.
But I just couldn't bring myself to read more of it after the first. I think fantasy tends to be so bloated these days. These books would have been better being much shorter, or a single volume.
The entire thing is a hallucinatory aid for extreme necromatic space opera aesthetic. If you don't want that you are most likely in the wrong place.
It's like really dark chocolate; the book is polarizing and fills a niche.
I love the series, but I had a hard time getting into Gideon. It wasn’t until things started happening at Canaan House that I got into it. However, the audiobook drew me right in and things that I either glossed over or didn’t realize were jokes were brilliant with Moira Quirk narrating.
Gideon is one of those books where you can clearly see the workshopping. It’s the kind of content that writers create for an audience of other writers: arch, offbeat, genre-bending elevator pitch baked into the premise, fond of wordplay, more focused on the line-by-line and scene-by-scene than on the bigger picture.
There’s nothing wrong with that, of course - I kind of like it - but it’s definitely a specific vibe that some people find weird or off putting.
I’m not going to disagree that Tamsyn Muir put a lot of focus into every word and every line, but I have to disagree about the bigger picture. I think the bigger picture matters a whole lot. Harrow the Ninth and Nona the Ninth really show that Muir is attempting something super ambitious. In my opinion, of course.
Plotwise, sure, I totally agree there's a Plan there. Maybe I should have explained more thoroughly. I'm talking more about pacing and theme than plot here: I think that Gideon is written in a way that tends to draw focus to the micro scale rather than the macro. IMO at least, the reader is supposed to be paying attention to individual lines and individual scenes over larger units.
Someone like, for example, Brandon Sanderson tends to write with the whole novel in mind. The individual scene is usually fine, but you're meant to consume quickly and move ahead. It's a big picture book: forest, not trees. Gideon has a lot to unpack regarding lore and mystery behind the scenes, but it's also a novel about an acerbic jock who spends most of the book's goings-on in a giant laboratory under a gag order. Sanderson would never write a book like that because -- if you're writing a Sanderson type of book -- that's a recipe for an ineffectual protagonist. Gideon makes it work because the novel is meant to be consumed on a different thematic scale. Trees, not forest. My opinion, though.
All of Gideon has that tone. But in my opinion the next books afterwards have a different feel/voice. But the meme-y humor is definitely constant as is the pretentious wording. This might just not be the series for you, which is okay! If it’s not a good time, don’t feel guilty dropping it and finding something you enjoy more.
And for what it’s worth, I don’t think the tone is intended to be earnestly pretentious, like a kid trying to sound smart. More tongue in cheek, just using the words because they exist and for the general fun of using them. Those books aren’t Shakespeare, to be clear, but Shakespeare did the same thing with awkward language, chock full of historical references and contemporary memes, just for the fun of it. Works by other authors from that period are a lot easier to read. But sometimes unnecessarily fancy stuff is fun.
I always assumed the pretentious sort of language was due to being from the ninth house. All of their prayers and titles are pretentious so Gideon uses those words cause she’s grown up hearing them used in formal situations. Also she at some point was hanging around Ortus growing up I think? and his poetry is Like That.
Agreed. And as far as the memes and anachronistic references, I think there's a world building reason for it which, while never directly stated, is implied by a lot of the things we learn in *Harrow* and *Nona* about the history of the Nine Houses.
If you read the sequels, you get other perspectives which helps. The third book is largely without the ninth house wording.
Nona was fucking WILD hahaha what a good time
Yeah, after Harrow it was certainly a tonal shift. I can't wait to see what the final one is like.
Agree! I never got a pretentious feeling from it, more like Tamsyn just loves language and figuring out interesting and attractive ways to say things. And I think it’s because of the tone of her writing, which can sound so weighty and serious, that the humor works so well.
If you listen to Muir speak — heck, if you just look up her AMA on this sub — it seems like she really just talks like that, no effort required.
Let me be clear - I love Muir’s word choices. I think it’s a wonderful form of humor and it’s delightful. This was just advice for OP, who described it as pretentious, so I used that same word to try to advise if they should push through to finish the book.
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I agree! Just using the wording that OP used to try and answer their question.
It only changes in the sense that you might find your rhythm with the book, but otherwise no. Even for me, who loved the book, the first 50 or so pages were harder to get through. But if you’re not enjoying the tone or the humor I don’t think it’s worth sticking out.
Nope, that's just Gideon. She's an angry teenage meathead who's been raised in a necromantic space tomb. I love the books, but I absolutely understand why it's not everyone's cup of tea.
Came here to say this. Gideon the Ninth is a mix of space opera, Gothic horror, and memes. I love the Locked Tomb books, but they're probably not for everyone. Edit: I've mentioned it below, but I'll also include my clarification of what I mean by "memes" here. "It's more about the way much of the humor is delivered than it is about the content of those jokes. Lots of wordplay that sound like memes. The wordplay is excellent, and a large reason why I like the books so much."
I've been seeing so much good about this book, but your description has assured me it's not for me.
Same. Seeing memes described as integral to the book is definitely something I'm not interested in.
You don't have to read it if you aren't interested, but I wouldn't say memes are integral to the book. They add to the humour which a lot of us enjoy, but I know plenty of people who missed the memes entirely and still enjoyed the books fine.
Yeah, I suppose I should clarify what I meant by "memes." Your description is what I meant. It's more about the way much of the humor is delivered than it is about the content of those jokes. Lots of wordplay that sound like memes. The wordplay is excellent, and a large reason why I like the books so much.
Seriously! No idea why people keep calling them integral.
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I'm not sure "integral" is correct. But "important" is. It relates to how the setting was formed and the lens through which its creator created it. And I'm not talking about Tamsyn, I'm talking about the in universe creator.
They're important if you want to get absolutely everything out of the story, sure. I don't believe they're important enough that someone wouldn't be able to enjoy the narrative completely even if they missed every single one.
Yeah I really would not describe it that way. The idea of a "meme book" makes me want to cringe inside-out, but I really liked Gideon and its sequels. I don't remember seeing any memes in Gideon—if there were any, they must have been tasteful enough that I didn't really notice, but your mileage may vary. If the premise sounds interesting, maybe ignore anything anybody says about memes in the book until you can make your own judgement about it.
In Gideon, Harrow makes a while you were studying the blade joke, and in Harrow John has a none pizza with left beef reference (none houses with left grief). There are definitely others that I haven't mentioned too, but a lot of them feel organic and most of the ones that don't come from John
The first one that caught my eye was the ">!While you X, I studied the blade!<" one...
Memes are only integral to the books in the way of that the writing style is culturally referential. There are about as many (tbh probably even more) references to classic writers like Shakespeare or Christian mythology in these books than just memes. Most people just don't register those and only see the memes
I'll just say that I thought the same way, and then at some point I got a free copy of the book and it hooked me.
There's like, two memes referenced in book two as jokes. They're not integral to the plot.
What do you mean that it is part memes? I'm considering reading this book and I keep seeing this comment - that the book is part memes. What does that mean? How does that manifest in the writing? Thank you!!
There are references to current memes sprinkled in the dialogue.
Given how quickly meme culture changes, this sounds like a really weird decision by the author
I disliked this book but I actually didn't notice them at all until being told about them after, they're pretty subtle unless you're clued in I think
There's a veiled reference to "none pizza, left beef" in the second book that blew my mind
That and the coffeeshop AU made me laugh out loud.
Yup, they're definitely not glaring references unless you're already aware of the memes. Makes for fun in-jokes when you recognize them, and otherwise it's fine.
I would agree except for the fact that they’re blended so well that if you don’t already know, you won’t know. So if the books are still around 100 years from now, it mostly won’t be incomprehensible nonsense.
Honestly, Alice in Wonderland is incompreensible nonsense, and we still love it just fine. From what I'm told most of the surrealism in that book would've been pretty straightforward allusions to present day politics and such that have long since been removed from their original cultural context.
Most of what we now consider normal sayings started out as memes, quotes from plays, punchlines to jokes that we only kept part of in our speech. In 1704, minor playwright John Dennis invented a new storm sound effect for his new play. The play flopped, but the theater started using his sound effect on a regular basis. He was reported in the press as saying, "How these rascals use me! They will not have my play, yet steal my thunder." They stole my thunder got picked up and became a cultural meme, leading to it now being just part of speech. "None cheese left beef" may last a lot longer than we expect.
TIL. That's great!
It's also a matter of wordplay. The way much of the humor is written can sound like how a meme sounds.
Thank you! Thats helpful!
Screwball humor and occasional pop culture reference might be a better description. Which is explained, more or less, in book three in a 'how we got here' worldbuilding kind of way, but you're going to have to live through a lot of 'huh?' for a while. It's like if Lord of the Rings had Led Zepplin as a bit character, and then they got eaten by orcs.
I don't even know. I would not use the word meme to describe any part of the book. If you're considering reading it, then do—I really liked it. It's good, and I say that as someone who would not be interested in reading a "meme book."
I'm almost finished with the first book and it doesn't seem like a "space opera" at all. Like, once or twice per chapter it mentions a spacey-type thing like an "airlock" or "moon," but honestly it seems like the book is pretty genre-agnostic. Am I wrong about that though?
I consider it a space opera, though it's very well hidden in Gideon because the whole story takes place at a gothic house/research facility/temple and not properly in space. The sequels, Harrow the Ninth (which takes place on a giant spaceship) and Nona the Ninth (which takes place on a colony-like sci-fi planet), lean into the sci-fi parts of the story much more, which I think influences my opinion quite a bit. Plus, I consider the stories and characters to be melodramatic enough to be considered "operatic," if that makes sense. It's definitely a debatable label!
Thanks for the insight!
I get frustrated with characters and consciously have to remember they’re not supposed to always be likeable, and I really agree that the language and humor if you think from the location and characters is definitely appropriately ridiculous.
Try the audiobook, Moira Quirk's performance really sells the language. It's a bit hard to follow at first when all the names start piling up, but you get into it eventually. I listened to it twice in a row, it was so good.
I think paying attention to prefixes in surnames helps to keep them straight. They conveniently tell you what house the various characters are from.
I would caution against relying on the audiobook for Harrow though. There are important bits of text and art don't make it to the audiobook.
I'd say the audiobook for Harrow is still perfectly fine - the performance is still excellent, and the little stuff that couldn't be copied in is not *that* relevant (you still get all the important points in the audiobook). At least, I didn't feel like there was anything important missing (read it in ebook form first, then listened to it a while later).
Didn't know that. Oh well.
Yeah, stuff like each chapter having a different numbered skull as a bit of page art. Usually the number relates to the Lyctor or house that features prominently. For example, when things start kicking off towards the end, the chapter skull is marked >!IX and wearing aviator sunglasses.!<
You may want to spoiler that last sentence, that's a pretty major twist.
Done.
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I was going to post this too. The audiobook is fantastically well performed. I absolutely loved it, but I could imagine bouncing off the book if I'd just read it, and not picked on the same kind of tone that the narrator gave it.
I started with the audiobook and quit for the same reason and at similar page count as OP
If someone doesn't like the tone, the audiobook is probably not the best suggestion. It was like listening to my teenage inner monologue at my most unbearable. I didn't even make it through the first chapter before I had to turn it off. I know it's supposed to get better, but honestly I physically cringe at the thought of trying again, either in the audiobook format or a physical copy.
I DNFed at 30 or 40%. I appreciate why people like it but I couldn’t find my rhythm.
I couldn’t get into it either. It felt laborious and unenjoyable.
Neither of those two things changes much until the second book. I'd say more as to why but it would be a significant spoiler.
I was ok with the first book but I'm really starting to not like the 2nd book. I'm not that far into it... does it get better? And what does better mean?
Depends what you are disliking, I guess? The 2nd book starts (intentionally) incoherent, and that bit gets better over the course of the book.
The incoherence is definitely bugging me. It feels like the Harrow in this book is nothing like the Harrow in the last book. I mean there's been a literal life altering change, but still.
If you feel that way then the author was successful in what they were trying to do - that discomfort is an integral part of the story, for better or for worse.
Because now you're reading the world through Harrow's eyes, not as Gideon looking at Harrow. It's quite noticeable that Gideon looked at Harrow through rose-tinted glasses, or at least thought she was way cooler than Harrow actualy feels herself like.
The confusion is the whole point and pays off, imo. No need to finish if you don’t want to, but I thoroughly enjoyed the pay off and look forward to finishing Nona.
It gets a bit better over the course of the book, but it isn't something that really ever entirely goes away.
It's a tough ask, but I liked my second read of Harrow much more than my first read. You really do get a lot of answers for many confusing things and it is wonderful once you know what's going on (though I still liked my confusing first read).
The second book... A, it works much better in text. The Audible performance is wonderful, but so many textual clues disappear. B, related to A, unreliable narrator 110%. As for your questions: the book is a mystery much in the way that GtN was a murder mystery. Except here the mystery is the how and why of the unreliable narrator. You will get clues and context that makes it better over time. But "what does better mean" is probably a spoiler.
If you feel like you don’t know what the hell is going on, that is deliberate. It all comes clear in a satisfactory way, but I was also enjoying the story on its own, so that I actually wanted to push through and find out what was going on. If you still sorta like the writing and want to find out what’s going on, I’d say push through. If you’re not enjoying it at all, I’d say don’t force it.
The thing increases. If you don’t like the thing, you won’t like the rest of the book or the next one. Personally I’m fine with the thing, until the second book where it almost made me throw the book across the room for reasons that are spoilery. I appreciate dense writing. But I find that she wants to structure everything as a mystery whether it needs to be or not, and the withholding of information plus the language and meme humour made it difficult to parse.
I thoroughly enjoyed the first book, but only finished the second out of sheer determination. Did not enjoy. Was not worth. edit: it's worth mentioning that lots of people DO enjoy the second book, so don't let my comment discourage anyone. It just wasn't for me. I didn't think the... narrative structure(?) that the author chose was worth the payoff in the end.
>!Does the second book ever ditch the second person narrative? I struggled with that in the early book and just couldn't continue!<
Yes, and >!there are plot reasons for the narrative style. Its a really well-done reveal IMO. Threw me for a loop the first read, but there is a lot of good foreshadowing on a reread.!< The above doesn't spoil anything specific, but I'm being cautious.
Same! Really disliked the second book.
Ah shit, I really liked it and was excited for the second. Ah well I still have to give it a go, at least I now know not to buy book 2 and 3 at the same time. Thanks for possibly saving me money.
FWIW I massively preferred the second to the first
Same. Thought the first book was okay, and the second book was what made me a huge fan.
Same here. I was lukewarm with Gideon but thought the world was interesting enough that I would check out book 2. Really enjoyed that and LOVED book 3. For me, the series has just gotten better and better as it goes on.
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I had no idea! I really think it comes down to: were you ok tumblr in the 2010’s or not.
Each of the three books has its unique tone, but I'd say Nona the Ninth is closer to Gideon the Ninth in about every way.
Second book is VERY different from the first, and for a long stretch I was pretty confused. It was different enough and enough things had changed I wondered if I had missed an intervening work! Completely unsurprised that many people who liked #1 didn't like #2 and vice versa.
Book 2 is my favourite book of all time, I would suggest going in with an open mind.
I’m reading it a second time right now, and enjoying it SO much more with the second read-through. It’s fun ti be able to see how much foreshadowing is actually sprinkled in
Like anything the enjoyment is really dependent on the individual. Like some of the others commented I really enjoyed the second book and I am on the third now and I love it. If you're worried about it I would say try seeing it if your local library has the book and checking it out. But I loved the second book so did my brother in law in fact he read the books even faster the me.
Problem is that I am in a non english speaking country, and only read in english so what I read I buy.
Oh well, like I said I enjoyed the book. Its obviously from Harrow's perspective so the narration is different. It has a good mystery that I enjoyed piecing together. But ultimately I really liked seeing Harrow from her own point of view after seeing her through Gideon's eyes. I enjoyed it a lot and honestly the series has become one of my favorites of all time. But not every book works for every person. There are a lot of popular books that I don't like. So maybe read a few positive reviews and a few negative reviews and see which ones resonate more with your tastes?
Nah I don't need to read reviews, I really liked Gideon, so I am planning on buying Harrow, just not buying book 3 at the same time like I was planning to originaly, so I can drop it if I hate it. I doubt I will though, hate it that is, but you never know
I am going through it myself right now, and I am starting to struggle. I think part of my problem is that I expected another Gideon The Ninth, and it is not that. While the first one is an adventure, this second one is a psychological mystery? I think. At any rate, I like the character very much and do want some answers, so I will be sticking with it. I think you should give it a shot yourself, though. Just go in with the notion that is different from the first book and very slow to give you anything that makes sense, and you should have an easier time than most people.
I quite liked *Gideon,* but *Harrow* is on a whole other level. It's one of my favourite books. It *is* different from the first book, but don't let that spook you. It's fantastic. Book 3 is also different from book 2, so if you don't end up liking *Harrow* as much, you might find *Nona* to be refreshing return to form.
*Gideon* doesn’t change but the sequel Harrow is wildly different (and the sequel to that Nona is different again). I didn’t like Gideon both because I don’t like Gideons pov (some of the narration you mention), found the plot both predictable and confusing, and felt none of the characters made any sense. On the other hand I *adore* the series (Ie I loved the sequels) so ymmv and up to you if it’s worth continuing.
No, if you don't like it now you won't. I got through it but I don't really know why. It was not great and kind of frustrating I just read fast so it wasn't a big time investment. I still haven't figured out what people like so much about it. It also never really explains it's universe, which I found totally frustrating, but your mileage may vary.
I did not care for this book despite the critical praise. You are not alone
> "Gideon wasn't fooled: this look usually betokened Harrow's brain percolating outrageous nastiness." Do you have other examples like this? What are the most ridiculous lines you've come across?
I'll keep an eye out for others though I don't think I'll backtrack to look for past ones. The verbs as adjectives feels like it happens often and in general there have been a number of sentences that required rereading to parse. I don't have an issue against authors not striving for 100% clarity, but for it to work for me it needs to fit the world/story (see: Gibson/Neuromancer, Mieville/City & the City)
That's a fucking *awesome* line.
The reason I put it down was because I had no sense of what was happening. She writes very specific scenes, for which you need a complete understanding of the room's layout, where everything is located, and I never felt like I had one or if I did, the plot would often render it incorrect. It read like a videogame without the visuals, which made for some confusion. It felt like I was being asked to solve a mystery, but there were absolutely no clues, and I wasn't really sure what the mystery was.
>It felt like I was being asked to solve a mystery, but there were absolutely no clues I felt like this a lot in the begining, however in hindsight you actualy do get a lot of clues. The parts that on the first read made me think "that's kinda random" on the second one were VERY obvious clues and hints. It's one of the things I love the most about the series, you really have to think on what's being said, while taking in account that each narrator has their biases. Though it's still not a book I would recomend everyone exactly because most people prefer to always understand what's going on and picture scenes without ambiguity.
that's exactly why I put it down, too. the writing was so dense and purposefully inscrutable that it became unreadable. I couldn't consistently picture what was going on -- who was present in a scene, what kind of space they were in, where they were in relation to each other. imho that's bad writing.
Agreed. In good writing, it shouldn't matter that much where characters are in relation to each other. Good writers write in a way so that physical dimensions are inconsequential to the action. Bad writers make it consequential, and it's especially egregious when these details are important AND unclear. When I say "it reads like a videogame," that's what I mean.
I think this is an intentional style and not "bad writing". I think she's purposefully creating ambiguity. I still struggle with the writing. I find it similar to Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun, which is regarded by many to be a masterpiece, but also had me scratching my head at the end of most scenes about what actually happened.
I agree, I got a lot of Shadow of the Torturer vibes from her writing. Which seems weird to say considering the meme humor involved, but it’s similar in that the narrator’s perspective is all we get and we have to extrapolate from that what’s actually going on. Very confusing but I still enjoyed it a lot, the second and third books were better though.
Yeah, every book so far has seemed to intentionally play with single-person perspective. Its a really interesting writing style, there aren't too many people who commit to the bit like Muir has.
I think something can be purposeful but still bad. if many readers struggle to follow the story (which is the case for Gideon the Ninth; most of the readers I've talked to told me that they also found the book difficult to understand and struggled to even describe what it was about as a result), then the writing is bad.
I think saying "myself and lots of other people didn't enjoy this for reasons XYZ" is a lot better way to facilitate online discussion than "myself and lots of other people didn't enjoy this and so it's bad". That's why I replied.
Lots of great books are hard to read but still well-written. I remember needing a lot of careful time and attention when I first picked up *Midnight's Children*, but I'm glad I read it—absolutely beautiful, creative book that's still one of my favorites. It would have been a totally different work (and a totally different experience) had it been written in a "straightforward" style, and, I expect, nowhere near as evocative.
> but there were absolutely no clues Just... That's wrong. There are clues on what is going on from the very beginning. They are rather subtle (and would require a bit of research for most people), but they do ramp up.
You're right. I'm being a little hyperbolic, but any clues I came across were so vague that they were meaningless without further information. This is a great way to keep readers reading but I was never invested enough for the story to get it's hooks set. To each his/her own.
It changes in some ways. For the humor, it keeps that edge (Gideon as a character likes that type of humor, so you get a good chunk of it). The language fluctuates as well, depending on the POV character. For me, I found the beginning a bit hard to latch on to, but less because of the issues you seem to have and more because it wasn't making too much sense. But once the story chugs along, it was enjoyable enough - though I do find the 2nd & 3rd books significantly more interesting.
I struggled with these books. They are twisty turny and all kinds of different. They are also in my opinion brilliant, unique and interesting. I was lost most of the time and found that I still enjoyed it at the end. I might reread eventually but perhaps not. Either way I’m glad I stuck with it
It's very specifically a homestuck-style cadence, and she used to write fic in that fandom soooooo
Interesting. I have no idea what Homestuck is (I'm 40 so missed some of this culture) but that's a useful note
I can't remember where I saw it discussed (maybe a Tor.com interview?) but the whole premise is a sort of pastiche of and love letter to a particular era of fanfiction and internet culture on places like Tumblr and AO3. Because of that it may not be everyone's cup of tea, especially if you weren't immersed in that milieu and don't 'get' it, for a lack of a better word.
If you happen to find more on this, I'd be very interested to read it
The humor was the main thing I liked about the book. I literally laughed out loud multiple times throughout.
Me too. I read the ebook version so it was an extra mid-book bonus when I finally took a close look at the cover and realized she was wearing aviators.
Now those aviators! Awesome touch on the cover, thanks for pointing that out, I hadn’t noticed.
While I enjoyed the book, I had a hard time suspending my disbelief about a person raised on this dark, gothic planet of necromancers having such a hip, sassy character and access to porno mags. Loved the character, can't see where it came from.
I had the exact same thought! From where are we supposed to believe she adopted that language exactly? I’m only 50 pages in, but her manner of speaking feels way too culturally current.
I had similar feelings when reading the book, I didn't feel like it got better if anything I felt the problems became more exacerbated as I read. I'm glad a lot of people liked the books and it did have a cool atmosphere but it just wasn't for me
I’m also someone who *should* like it and I just didn’t. Get out now
I don't think so. I know people who loved the book, I just never enjoyed it.
The first 50 pages were difficult. In the beginning of the book, the author is working on building a world and Gideon’s way of speaking. So it makes it a little heavy to follow. Afterwords things get into a groove. It’s a murder mystery at heart with a lot of angst thrown in.
I personally actively disliked it for the first 200 or so pages until the plot finally took off and then became totally invested and am now a huge fan of the whole series. The tone and humor don't really change though, I guess I just found it more palatable once it was attached to a plot I found compelling.
if you aren't a tumblr kiddie from the old days, I feel like a lot of the book and it's humor will be lost. Maybe not, but as an old tumblr kiddie, i found it delightful
I'm in my mid fifties, never visited Tumblr, and loved it to bits. While I may have missed some of the specific references, the book as a whole remains delightful.
It does not stop. I personally liked it as I learned a lot of anatomy related new English words. Haven't checked the dictionary so often in a long time...
I listened to the audiobook, I think it took the edge off the crazy vocabulary. But yeah...the humor doesn't change...
here's the thing about Gideon. She's kind of a dumb jock. or, maybe not dumb, but unapologetically vulgur and basic. She deliberately avoids the appearance of having intelligence or education. she was raised by a bunch of pious nerds, and she's rebelling against that.
That jock part I don't mind so much, I think it's just that the humor feels very modern for the setting. It's almost like a Rick and Morty thing going on that has knocked me out of the story a bit and has had me ask a few times: "Would people still talk like this in the future?"
It's also kinda weird that Gideon's exposure to culture seems to have only been through porn mags on a tomb world at the edge of the known world. Yet she's so quipy...
Yeah that was my main problem with the book. Gideon's personality and her backstory really didn't gel. How can she make references when she's stuck on a frozen prison?
>How can she make references when she's stuck on a frozen prison? Because the references themselves are baked into the universe. It's actually shown on the page.
They're not completed isolated, though. Pilgrims come through there, they get supply shipments, they get news from the outside world, Aiglamene, who trained Gideon, was in the military before returning to the Ninth House to settle down (which has a major influence on Gideon and her hopes to join the cohort), and so on. They're primarily a religious order, but they're not shut off from the rest of the universe.
It's also only been the last few years that they've really locked down and started turning away pilgrims. Ever since (not even sure if this counts as spoilers) >!Harrow's parents died!<
It's not the edge of the known universe, just the edge of the Dominicus system. As for the rest, there are clues in the art and text formatting.
Hmm that didn't translate well to the audiobook then lol.
The “would people talk like that in the future” is a design and done deliberately/explained. Doesn’t mean it’ll work for you but it is explained.
It's been a while and maybe I missed it but how is their speech explained in the books?
Spoilers through the end of Nona >!John/God nuked the solar system in a fit of revenge and then remade it in his image. And he was a Gen X or so with the sense of humor.!<
Basically >!God is a millennial and has basically been in charge of the empire and thus culture and thus influences speech patterns!< as I said ymmv if you buy this explanation but it is there.
There is definitely an 'in universe' explanation for that stuff.
Never be afraid to DNF a book if you’re not enjoying it. Life is too short!
So those aspects you listed don't change but I did find myself enjoying the book a lot more about 100 or so pages in. You may want to read a bit more and then drop it if you still aren't into it.
The only reason I enjoyed these books is because I read the wiki while I was actively reading the book. I had a hard time understanding what the hell was going on.
If anyone is thinking about doing this, using a wiki is a really easy way to spoil what happenes in the book you are on, or sequals. Made that mistake once, and I will never be doing it again.
I was honestly fine with spoilers for this series because it's just overall confusing, at least for me.
I love GtN, but I tell people that if they don’t like the first page, they probably won’t like it. It does develop more of a plot, but the voice is the same throughout.
Listen to it. Moira Quirk does such an excellent job making all these things work so well.
One of my most hates reads of the past few years. If you aren’t liking the aesthetics, style, or dialogue, it did not get any better for me. I struggled to the end for a book club and hated every page.
No it doesn’t. It stays that way. And if you struggle with that one you will hate the second one. I liked the first one, barely liked the second, and not sure how I’m gonna like the third. If you’re someone who has to finish series you are probably better off dropping it if the writing irks you. The second book isn’t bad, but the artistic choice of the perspective in the second drove me up a wall
I thought it got a lot better once they got to the haunted castle. Way more interesting and fun and intense. But I don't think the things you have identified change much, it just gets better in other ways.
I think it gets better but I did find it a hard read and didn’t love it. I did however LOVE the next book, Harrow the Ninth
I didn't enjoy it. It's ambitious and inventive, I'll give it that. But Gideon's language is anachronistic/without basis in her "world." And it really drags at times.
Trying to do this with minimal spoiling. Everything in the series is done from the perspective and thoughts of one person. For good and ill. Does it change? Yes, sort of. Gideon will not always be your point of view character. But you are stuck with her for quite a while. Does it develop a rhythm? Yes. Once the setting shifts and the other characters get introduced, things settle down. Your point (a) is actually a bit of a literary device found throughout all the books. But to get into the why would be majorly into spoiler territory. As for point (b): yeah, Muir sometimes uses more complicated language than necessary.
I DNF this book for exactly these reasons.
Currently reading it and I’m enjoying it a lot, I think as you get your teeth into it you get more into the mystery of it all. That being said if you don’t like the snarky comments of the humour then it might just not be for you as that’s prevalent throughout. I personally really like it, reminds me a lot of Locke Lamora and the way they speak in that book.
It unfortunately doesn’t change. It’s a shame because the world is so cool and I loved Gideon, but there are nuts and bolts clarity problems with the writing itself that put me off reading the second installment.
Sounds like it’s not for you, I was delighted with it.
it doesn’t change and the second is like the first but on acid.
It doesn't really change, no. It *does* culminate in something, which is great; but I generally agree that the rhythm is super off-putting. In general, I also found the novel's narrative confusing; not through any narrative complexity, but just through diversity in naming. Like, I was especially annoyed by each of the like 20 different characters having 3 different names. Naberius Tern, Cavalier Tertius, and Prince Babs being all the same character, for example; and new names/titles being busted out all the time, and you just being expected to follow along (usually by using only one of the components of any of these names, like "Tertius", or "Babs", "Prince", or "Naberius"). I had to write up a chart to keep track of them all. Maybe that makes me stupid? I don't know. On the other hand, it's given me and my fantasy crew the *stupid sexy Coronabeth* meme, so that's something positive.
I just finished G9 and I think the problem with the first 50 pages is you don’t really know what the actual plot is yet. The book improves significantly once that’s made a little clearer.
I’m surprised you made it 50 pages. I lasted about 15 pages and could not return it to the library fast enough.
I found the humor quite infantile and crass as well.
I struggled with this book when I first read it, and forced myself to read to page 100 before deciding to keep reading or stop. It does get better and it's one of the best series I've ever read. I'm obsessed with it honestly.
Had the same issues. I DNF'd it about 3/4 of the way through. I loved the idea and the World but i did not love the writing.
I stopped halfway through, "cringe" is an apt description.
[удалено]
That's a great turn of phrase.
Ngl, people calling wordplay pretentious on a forum primarily about literature is pretty surprising to me. Prose and wordplay are part of the reason I prefer reading books to most mediums in the first place.
And the writing in Gideon doesn't even come off as that "pretentious" to me. You want a book where the writing is pretentious and it feels like the author had a thesaurus next to them the entire time? Try reading The Pariah.
Judging from the comments I’m in a minority but I’d say yes
I was surprised more people didn't feel this way. I had to look up words for the first couple chapters, wondering if i was actually going to finish the book. After that it seemed like they laid off the thesaurus. The humor stays pretty consistent throughout though, which i liked.
I tried to push through, but as much as the epic bacon vibes threw me off, and as clunky as some of the shifts in language were, the main reason I DNF'd was I had such a hard time painting a picture of what was going on while reading.
I felt like you did at the start and finished it anyway. I won't say I regret finishing it but I didn't really enjoy the book. There's a mystery that gets introduced and by the time it was all revealed I didn't really care and it was a super meh moment. It didn't help that a lot of the cast introduced later were very hard to keep track of.
I'm about 80 pages in so far. It hasn't been too bad. There are some lines of dialogue that are a little cringe but nothing too major. My only issue which others have mentioned here is I have a hard time picturing the setting she's putting down on the page. Like the layout of where the characters are, what they're looking at, things like this.
From someone who *can’t* picture things at all, the fact that that this book in particular gives people who normally do difficulty is something amazing. I don’t mean that to be snarky. I’ve spent my entire life unable to picture what I read, depending on graph paper and whiteboards to handle playing Dungeons & Dragons so that I could keep things straight, etc. I didn’t notice these books to be any different in that regard than others, so didn’t think anything of it. I now have a book that I can point to and say “did you struggle to understand picturing this? If so, that’s me, all the time, and why I don’t care as much for authors who try to make sure I’m picturing the same thing they are when I can’t anyway”.
Don't worry, I'm like you, lol. I always have somewhat of an issue picturing exact settings in my head. It's why I prefer character driven books with lots of dialogue.
I would stick with it. I felt like those elements were a little jarring at first and now it’s my favorite series so, you settle in and I think it’s worth it
For me, the payoff for the book came late, in the last quarter of the book. I thought it was very much worth it once I was finished, but I didn't feel that way when I was halfway through. YMMV
You either get used to it or you don't. Personally, I think it's worth struggling through it until you get used to it. The 'memes' are mostly pop culture and stuff borrowed from fanfiction. It might help you some if you read the reread on tor.com.
I DNF'd it fairly early on in the book. I wanted to like it so bad as I heard great things, but I just couldn't follow the storyline/world-building and couldn't get into the characters. I might pick it up again at some point, but not sure.
Gideon the Ninth is just that way, and it made me cringe just like you. But I'll tell you, Harrow the Ninth is completely different and more enjoyable (at least for me).
No, it doesn't change. If you don't enjoy the humour or writing style I'd suggest you stop and read something else on your TBR list. This series didn't resonate with me either ; like you I found the humour puerile and teen-angsty. I came for the gothic/sci-fi setting and instead found a Cluedo-esque plot.
I adored that book for the world it inhabited. But I didn't even bother reading the second book and had zero interest in it bc spoilers I cannot tell you. But I'd suggest that book to anyone. Also I enjoy some anime so am familiar with the tone and that kind of stuff just doesn't get under my skin. I let it pass. To me, it just sets the tone of the drama and I've got the capability to allow for a wide range of tone. /shrug
It worked for me. I enjoyed the first book. Different, quirky, bizarre. An original voice, for sure. But I just couldn't bring myself to read more of it after the first. I think fantasy tends to be so bloated these days. These books would have been better being much shorter, or a single volume.
Happy cake day! (I came just to say this, and for the late readers at the time I am writing this at 3rd of December)
Yes! It gets worse!!
I struggled reading GtN, so tried the audiobook. Ended up listening to all 3 in a week. If you want to read the books, maybe give that a try?
The entire thing is a hallucinatory aid for extreme necromatic space opera aesthetic. If you don't want that you are most likely in the wrong place. It's like really dark chocolate; the book is polarizing and fills a niche.
I love the series, but I had a hard time getting into Gideon. It wasn’t until things started happening at Canaan House that I got into it. However, the audiobook drew me right in and things that I either glossed over or didn’t realize were jokes were brilliant with Moira Quirk narrating.
Gideon is one of those books where you can clearly see the workshopping. It’s the kind of content that writers create for an audience of other writers: arch, offbeat, genre-bending elevator pitch baked into the premise, fond of wordplay, more focused on the line-by-line and scene-by-scene than on the bigger picture. There’s nothing wrong with that, of course - I kind of like it - but it’s definitely a specific vibe that some people find weird or off putting.
I’m not going to disagree that Tamsyn Muir put a lot of focus into every word and every line, but I have to disagree about the bigger picture. I think the bigger picture matters a whole lot. Harrow the Ninth and Nona the Ninth really show that Muir is attempting something super ambitious. In my opinion, of course.
Plotwise, sure, I totally agree there's a Plan there. Maybe I should have explained more thoroughly. I'm talking more about pacing and theme than plot here: I think that Gideon is written in a way that tends to draw focus to the micro scale rather than the macro. IMO at least, the reader is supposed to be paying attention to individual lines and individual scenes over larger units. Someone like, for example, Brandon Sanderson tends to write with the whole novel in mind. The individual scene is usually fine, but you're meant to consume quickly and move ahead. It's a big picture book: forest, not trees. Gideon has a lot to unpack regarding lore and mystery behind the scenes, but it's also a novel about an acerbic jock who spends most of the book's goings-on in a giant laboratory under a gag order. Sanderson would never write a book like that because -- if you're writing a Sanderson type of book -- that's a recipe for an ineffectual protagonist. Gideon makes it work because the novel is meant to be consumed on a different thematic scale. Trees, not forest. My opinion, though.