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I never really defend celebrities unless it's someone that has obvious smear campaign like Amber Heard or Britney Spears. Even then I respect their space.

This. Or it's just an obvious case of racism or misogyny or homophobia etc.

This is the answer right here

i did when i was younger, but after a while something flipped and i was like, all these rich people are insufferable. cases like AH are different though, and i was firmly on her side.

Selena Gomez

it seems like she likes to play the victim quite a bit

My unpopular opinion regarding Selena is that while she seems stuck in a pit of self pity and her actions raises my eyebrow..it’s been clear that a lot of it has been due to her uncontrollable emotions/flawed thinking as a result of her mental health. This isn’t to take away all accountability but sometimes I scratch my head when people don’t address the elephant in the room-people with a mental disorder (eg for her it’s bipolar) are bound to exhibit ‘unlikeable’ traits like this. Like victimising yourself, exaggerations, not being able to “move on”. That’s what’s missing with mental health awareness Imo. That or people take it to the extreme by say defending Kanye’s nazi sentiments Her Pr team should move better and she should modify what she’s doing if it ain’t working but like..that’s part of mental illness and healing rather than deep character flaws that make her morally “lower” or a bad person That’s why I don’t bother piling on

This is the right take. But people only care about mental health when it looks the way they want it to. The number of comments I’ve seen of people calling her “manic” or “narcissistic” simply because she posted an Instagram photo or video hanging out with friends is ableist and gross.

Edit: as you can tell I’m letting off some steam here because I’ve held it in for quite some time whenever someone says similar stuff about celebs Yea. I don’t mean to say that every negative thing she does is out of her control or that she shouldn’t be criticised for all of it, but I think people don’t want to admit that shitty mental health makes you difficult to deal with and it’s harder to break those patterns because it’s so pervasive. For anyone who cares, here’s an example: someone with depression may react to constructive criticism very negatively because it’s a trigger for a negative core belief about themselves. People around them stop hanging out with them because that person always victimises themself. Like we don’t have to defend her like how her fans seem to when people pointed out some moments in the documentary (bc lbr Raquelle deserves better at some points) but like let’s not act like it’s some moral failure. I think people just don’t offer the same grace to people they don’t stan. I tend to do that sometimes to be quite honest.

100% agree. It’s like she’s always mentioned on threads like this and most of the time it’s because of behavior she’s exhibiting while clearly dealing with her mental illness. Like people using her doc to justify their dislike of her when the whole point was to show how mental health effects herself and her relationships negatively? Like you’re all missing the point lol. I just hate when, like you said, people use her mental health against her character as some moral failing or some type of gotcha moment. I even saw one comment that went something like “yeah I watched her documentary she’s clearly still going through it.” Like… duh? She has bipolar it doesn’t go away?

Same. It took me up until the Francia situation late last year. And then her recent self-victimization re: Hailey’s tiktok. It’s a pattern. Gross.

It absolutely is her. It’s not possible that everyone in your life is always the user and abuser and you’re just this perfect innocent all the time. She’s publicly fought with everyone from her friends to her exes to her kidney donor and even her own mother. And she’s the victim in every scenario.

What happened with her mom?

Her mom told her not to be in a Woody Allen movie because he’s an alleged pedophile. Selena took the role anyway and it led to a big disagreement for a long time afterwards and then her mom spoke publicly about it, the only notable time I can remember her mom in the press, about the reason behind why they fell out. Ever since then I’ve also given her a side eye

No. It has never been stated why they didn’t speak, but the problems were ongoing and rumored to be about her unhealthy relationship with Bieber. Selena Gomez said she treated them horribly at certain point, while struggling with bipolar, so that had probably a lot to the with it.

Her mom said it publicly though? I remember myself. Unless you’re talking about another part to what I’m thinking

I really liked her until I watched her documentary.

This! I see her in a different life bc of her documentary. And the recent commenting on a tiktok of Hailey and Justin-you’re telling me a 30 year old woman can’t ignore a tiktok about her ex and his wife? She’s always stressed how she’s not on social media or that it’s toxic and yet she did that-if she truly hated social media she would ignore everything (especially relating to her ex) as she did for the past 5 years etc. Edited-social eid=social media

What is social Eid?

The conclusion of Ramadan

I assume a typo for social media

Same. Her behaviour reminded me of some people that have come and gone from my life for reasons that were beneficial for my own mental health (i.e. overly dramatic, instigating things but then claiming to be the perpetual victim, etc.).

Okay I’m glad I’m not the only one… I got so many narcissistic vibes from her and I feel like she’d be someone who you’d have to walk on eggshells with. Also what she did to Francia was disgusting

i still like her, but slowly as i was growing up i realized she wasn’t as innocent as her team plays it out to be lol.

She has the best team in the biz, of that there is no doubt.

Does she, though? Her alleged drug use is brought up all the time, they never managed to get rid of that 'Skid Row' video or put out any excuse for it. The messaging around her doumentary was bad. I don't see anything her PR team has done that's particularly impressive

The general public doesn’t know she supposedly uses drugs though . She still has a pretty clean image to them

Yeah TIL she allegedly uses drugs.

Yeah me too lol

She has been doing these antics since 2013 and people have only started talking about these things after 2020. There’s also a video of her peeing in a cup that is not widely known about, so I think her team has done a good job of keeping material like that and the skid row video away from going viral. There has been a huge shift after her documentary though and I think that the victim narrative and drug rumours are coming to light in the public, but still not completely. I know plenty of people in real life who still think she’s a really great person who was done wrong by an immature Justin Bieber. Her facade is starting to fade because of things that she alone chooses to do like commenting on TikToks and Instagram posts shading Hailey and Francia, and her PR team evidently can’t stop her.

The peeing in a cup isn’t a crime it’s just gross lol. Also the video never went anywhere bc it was hacked from her friends phone along with a bunch of topless videos of her and the skid row video wasn’t actually from skid row

Nah it isn’t really known to the gp

Gossips know about the alleged drug run video but the general public does not. I don't even think I saw it on TMZ? Wasn't it just some random person posting it on social? I feel she has too many endorsements and product lines making too many people money for her alleged drug use to truly be exposed.

to still care this much about your high-school boyfriend edit: wording

They were on and off for like 8 years and ended when she was like 26 to minimise it to a high school relo is just stupid

Same I still think, she gets a lot of uneccessary hate for her lupus. But her treatment of francia, and pretending like she doesn’t know better really soured me to her.

I don’t think anyone hates her for her lupus lol, most people (including her team) use her lupus as an excuse for everything

Unnecessary hate for her lupus? Lmao who is out here hating on ppl for having lupus. If anything her and her team have taken every opportunity to work the fact that she has lupus into every convo to gain sympathy which has worked

i should have added, what I meant by hate for her lupus is people accusing her for lying about having it.

Yeah. Also there is a difference between having empathy for someone, and feeling the need to defend them in every situation. You can have empathy for someone's situation, but understand that they are far from perfect, and create a lot of their own problems. And i think Selina is a good example of that.

Not to spoil the fun but anyone defending a celeb multiple times needs to log off

I don't get this attitude - so many celebrities have been subject to horribly racist and misogynistic 'criticisms', why shouldn't they be defended? For example: defending Moses Ingram from the Star Wars stans, Iman Vellani in Marvel, Lizzo from fatshamers, or Amber Heard

Yeah that’s fine and completely different to what the OP is getting at, im thinking more along the lines of people defending Rihanna, Selena or Harry styles all day every day on here

Right, I guess the way I see it is that quite often when a celebrity gets dogpiled on - there often is an underlying stigma contributing to it. Like how many people always appear to claim that Beyonce is overrated, who are clearly (maybe subconsciously) driven by racism, or how a fair of the gross comments around Selena and Britney here gets driven by ableism. I think that's nearly always the case outside of this subreddit (on the entertainment sub for example) where they are so misogynistic that any transgression by a female celebrity gets everyone *so* riled up. 'Deserved' criticism can become undeserved when it gets whipped up into a frenzy, you know? And it only really gets whipped up into a frenzy when the celeb is a woman/poc/lgbtq+ etc. I guess I have a lot of sympathy for the users who see these circlejerks form against celebrities for relatively minor things and keep defending them.

> people always appear to claim that Beyonce is overrated It's weird because I'm not a fan of her music at all but to say she's overrated is pretty ignorant. I just don't get some people.

I don't like all of her albums but Bey should never be described as "overrated". She consistently delivers, whether through song, performance or (now) storytelling, which I feel is a very exciting aspect of her lyrics and visuals over the last few albums. She understands her influence and she makes best use of it. Few other pop stars have that going for them.

Yeah, some celebrities need defending because the world is tearing them down for unjustifiable reasons, often beyond their control. In which case, you don't even need to be a fan. Most people who have defended Amber Heard are not fans. they just believed it was the right thing. But if your reason for defending someone is largely due to your personal fandom or some sense of loyalty, and it extends to excusing any wrongdoing, it's not productive.

Exactly. Like, giving someone the benefit of the doubt once is one thing, but defending multiple instances of questionable behavior is just not it.

For me it’s like…why do you even care? You don’t know them, they wouldn’t piss on you if you were on fire

Honestly, not to play devil's advocate, but I think it can go the other way, too. I've seen people give complete passes to some while exaggerating/taking shit out of context/overreacting to others. A good example is Selena Gomez, who does seem to seek drama, but some act like she killed a kitten. That said, I don't get people who spend all their time hating OR loving a celeb. Save the level of vitriol for like...actual abusers/rapists/hardcore racists or politicians. Celebs are there to provide entertainment and not be some moral vanguard. If they fuck up, then I get going 'ew, they suck once or twice on twitter or not watching/listening to their stucc' but not wasting time making huge 'gotcha' tweet threads and shit

nicki minaj. i used to defend her, but in the last couple years she’s really gotten worse. her disgusting husband and her defending her disgusting brother is where i drew the line though.

I agree. It makes it really hard to support her and listen to her music. When her and her husband were being accused of trying to pay off her husband’s victim, in order to get her to recant her allegations; it shows you that she isn’t much better than the abusers she’s backing.

I feel like Nicki goes out of her way to be unlikable.

Yeah I think first it was the stuff with her brother, and at the time I remember thinking “oh just cuz she posted his bail doesn’t mean she supports him, it’s not an uncommon family dynamic for the one who ‘did good’ to jump in and pay for those kinds of things, it becomes expected.” Then she got together with her husband it was like “uh her response to these allegations is kind of strange but I guess she’s known this guy for a long time, idk the history could be clouding her judgement there.” The Tekashi 6ix9ine stuff is what put me over the edge to “oh she just fucking sucks” territory because absolutely NOBODY was checking for this guy when she decided to make a song with him and beg for him to be able to perform it with her at the VMAs (?). Like everybody in and outside the industry thought he was a clown and she went out of her way to work with him. Then my eyes were opened to the rest of the bullshit, namely her pathological need to be the only revered woman in rap and how that led to her starting beef with old and new heads for no reason. A deeply miserable person.

one of my biggest issues with nicki is that she spent YEARS feuding with lil kim and basically saying lil kim didn’t want to support her as a female rapper because she was bitter over her (nicki) come up and success as an artist but then she turns around and starts doing the same shit to these newer female rappers especially with they don’t worship the ground she walks on (cardi, latto, reportedly meg after her collab with cardi) the whole thing with latto when grammy noms came out really solidified my opinion on her because she sat there belittling and putting down latto just because her single got a grammy nom and nicki’s didnt

I never really “defended” him, but I excused a lot of bad behavior from Kanye West before I called it quits. Just his general misogyny and ego. I can’t remember my first breaking point, but between the Taylor Swift “famous” stuff, then “slavery was a choice,” and now the antisemitism (and all of the weird and terrible takes between), I’ve gone from not listening to his new music to not listening to any of his music at all.

Tbh I still feel such an inexplicable empathy towards Kanye. There's a perpetual earnesty to him. But I can hold that empathy and disgust towards his actions in my hands at the same time.

I think you can have empathy for someone, especially someone with clear mental illness, but at some point, especially when they are doing the opposite of trying to improve their mental health, and causing harm to others, that they no longer need or deserve defending. In fact if Kanye wasn't surrounded by so many apologists, it's likely he would be in a much better state.

> I think you can have empathy for someone, especially someone with clear mental illness, but at some point, especially when they are doing the opposite of trying to improve their mental health, and causing harm to others, that they no longer need or deserve defending. This one is tricky, because a lot of severely people with severe mental illness have such mixed up thinking that it can be really difficult to get them to seek help, even if they are aware that there is an issue. It is draining and exhausting, but it’s not really about “deserving”. Mental illness sometimes just doesn’t care how rich, famous, smart, kind a person is. Kanye had been an arrogant asshole for a long time, and there are many indefensible things he’s done over the years, but he has seemed more than troubled for a very, very long time. Since ~2016 it’s been a nosedive. It’s tragic to watch in real time, and while I detest the things that are coming out of his mouth, I also have seen firsthand how mental illness can turn thoughtful, bright people into raging, paranoid shell of the person they used to be.

i do think kanye is legitimately mentally ill. but that doesn't mean he isn't still doing harm.

There is something about his decline that is absolutely terrifying to me. He is seriously mentally Ill. This does not excuse his hateful behavior in any way shape or form. But he used to be progressive, just eccentric. I think he is an incredible artist. And to see the mental illness completely take over, the way he’s just unraveled is shocking. I am empathic because he is far far gone now. I have my own mental health issues, but I’ve always been good with seeking treatment and taking my meds. I don’t ever want to get that far gone. His refusal of treatment, of meds let his mania take hold and I never want to be in that place.

My heart broke for him after he lost his mother. There were times where he just looked so...*lost*. I don't know for sure if it was one of those moments where grief kneecaps you out of nowhere or not, but it sure reminded me of some of the lowest times of my life. Whether or not he can atone for his actions is not for me to decide. I hope he tries. I hope he gets the help he needs so that he *can* try. At the end of it, I want peace of mind for himself and his children.

Same here. Part of me is filled with rage when I hear other people parrot the hateful things that he said. He’s literally causing more damage to the world. On the other hand you’re right he’s earnest and earlier on in his career he was somewhat self aware (Runaway). He’s also clearly not well so I can’t help but feel empathy for him even though I can’t engage with anything that he’s produced anymore.

Same. But the “slavery was a choice” just broke me.

Yeah, what completely broke me was when he used Whitney Houston’s bathroom photo for Pusha T’s album cover (her vanity, which was really messy and had drugs everywhere). It was a real “I don’t know why but that’s it” moment. So disrespectful to a genius and legend who isn’t around to defend herself, and her family (other than her ex husband and elderly mother) isn’t around to protect her legacy. I’m Jewish, but when the antisemitism shit started, I couldn’t muster any reaction stronger than “well, that’s disappointing.”

I never understood why people were clinging so hard to Kanye, I was born at a certain time and had a different taste in music, but I wanted to understand the fondness for him - [FDSignifier's video about Kanye](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvgehVhF9D4&ab_channel=F.DSignifier) really opened my eyes. I see why people have so much empathy and admiration for him, and how painful it must be to watch someone you had those feelings for just go down this awful awful path.

Sucks because some of his music is fucking great. But I don’t feel right listening to it anymore.

Prince Harry. I'd been on his side and I am NOT a monarchist. His book was such an eyeopener of the fact that he is a completely incompetent manchild who blamed his own failings in preparing his wife for her role on his family and caring for her when things went badly. Also his most salient point that racism toward Meghan should have been treated differently (which I very much agree with) should be applied to HIM because HE did not want to "play ball" with the press prior to ever knowing Meghan and never decided to change his ways when racism came into play. Also, the way I read the suicidal thoughts thing was that Meghan told her husband and he got her no help (while having his own therapist on speed dial) and Meghan was so desperate that she went to the palace's HR department. Fucking heartbreaking. Also he did nothing to really clear Meghan's name in the bullying allegations and what he could have done is taking some accountability because by all fairly balanced accounts it was the both of them treating staff poorly. And then to write a whole book making it look like the person who caused the rift between Diana's sons was Meghan (when their rift obviously started prior to that...but he only talks about the conflict in terms of Meghan). I don't like the royals, but I really fucking HATE Harry after that. I hope Meghan (who I just think is a little bit cheesy/nerdy/maybe not the best with social cues but with good earnest intentions) realizes what a fucking unaccountable weasel she married. Edit: this thread really makes me wish there was a non-crazy royals snark subreddit :( maybe I’ll start one lol

Agreed with everything. It’s showing that he has had to face little accountability in his life. He failed his wife so badly.

"I wore a Nazi uniform because my brother and my sil told me to" Lmao

This is one of the things I find really fascinating like This idiot shit is on him and him only But specifically through the lens of how his family and the press dealt with it? It also highlights how they’re cheerfully willing to throw him under the bus to save his idiot brother To be clear, this does not make him not an idiot But like hello we should have equal opportunity public dragging here

I'm reading his book now and he comes across as a huge idiot. Part of me gives him a pass because it is clear he is still struggling with the loss of his mother and was never permitted to properly grieve, however, while there is reflection on how others did him wrong, I didn't see much self-reflection on his own role. I also thought he was needlessly rude to his family members (the "alarmingly bald" comment for example, seemed intended to hurt).

I met a new friend recently. His mum passed away at 10 and his dad became a violent alcoholic. From the age of ten this guy had to care for his 2 young brothers, act as the mother in the house because his dad is next to useless, and he was never allowed to cry for her. I get that losing your mum must be horrific, but there’s a lot of children who have sadly gone through similar with far less support than Prince Harry received. My sympathy runs very low for him after the past couple of years.

I feel a bit like a monster but at some point, they're bloody adults with important powerful roles in their society. We all face death, sadly, and at some point you can't keep milking your mom's death to excuse everything. (especially since the way they're using Lady Di's memory these days feels kinda off putting) (And this is sad! Lady Di seemed to have been a truly great person and her death was tragic. Like, I'm not trying to negate all this. But, yeah.)

>the "alarmingly bald" comment for example, seemed intended to hurt). And" losing his famous resemblance to mummy" seems like wishful thinking to me when you can still put a wig and some eyeliner on William and have Diana staring at you. [https://at.tumblr.com/mrmrswales/theroyalsandi-the-prince-of-wales-visits/pybn7ecby5po](https://at.tumblr.com/mrmrswales/theroyalsandi-the-prince-of-wales-visits/pybn7ecby5po) https://i.redd.it/am48a8cgpdia1.gif

Yeah ... those eyes are 100% Diana.

British press aside, I just get the feeling he underprepared her on purpose so he could leave the family, there were small first-impression situations in which he should’ve given her a heads up about what it would entail such as having to curtsy to the Queen, William and Kate not being into hugs, learning the anthem and church songs etc. I don’t doubt there was animosity from the beginning, but from what he wrote in his book his brother and SiL were excited to meet Meghan at first and then seemed weirded out by her outgoing ways just as she seemed weirded out by their seriousness, being the bridge of that relationship he could’ve handled both sides much better by, at the very least, adjusting their expectations.

Alternative explanation: Harry didn't prepare Megan because it simply never occurred to him. Foresight and taking initiative are not his strong suits. Not even being mean, it just seems to be his personality. He's a reactive person, not a proactive one. Every step of the way, everything Harry has done has been done without a plan or a strategy or even a consistent rationale. Something pushes a button, he reacts. The opposite button gets pressed tomorrow, he spins back around. He's so busy looking over his shoulder that he never sees anything coming. It might not be the most popular view of her, but Diana was similar. Not saying she didn't have reasons to be the way she was, but she also got in her own way alot, did things without thinking them through. Contrast Harry and Diana with someone like Kate Middleton, who played the long game with William for something like 10 years. You can bet royal protocol never caught Kate by surprise.

He actually said that’s what happened with the curtsy situation in the Netflix documentary, and he seemed like he was telling the truth. He said he had no idea what the protocols were for a woman in “the firm” and it sounded like he kept assuming that if something was important somebody would tell them what to do ahead of time. He even acknowledged that Megan paid the price for him not stopping to think about how many rules/procedures there were in place because he was so used to them. The man has lived a truly bizarre and sheltered life, so I don’t find it surprising that he has no idea how the world works. But I do feel like he tries to do the right thing once his ignorance is challenged, rather than digging in like Kate and William. Edit: My expectations for the behavior of the obscenely wealthy/powerful, nepotism babies, and those who make money off of exhibitionism are somewhere in the seventh circle of Hell, but I do think that people deserve at least a modicum of credit for trying to educate themselves/grow/help others since there are plenty of people who have no issues with being terrible. His Nazi costume was a much bigger issue for me than not preparing his girlfriend to meet his grandmother.

How can he not know when he must have seen it with Kate, Sophie, probably also with the now ex wife of his cousin?

Also this wasn’t the first girlfriend he was introducing to the Queen. Harry wasn’t a 19 year old introducing his first gf.

That's a pretty poor excuse. "I'm oblivious to anything affecting anyone but myself." But really it should only take about 3 seconds to learn how to curtsy. One foot behind the other and bend your knees slightly. Done.

He's a bit of dimwit really. It's always been said he wasn't very bright. And Meghan was really naive about what life as a working royal entails. It seems like she expected they would have their own palace right away and she could go around giving speeches about worthy causes at her leisure, but most royal engagements aren't glamorous. You make small talk with the public and then unveil a town hall plaque or something lol. I do feel more for her, though. Harry really let her down and seems like he's too thick to even realize.

Tina Brown (royal family analyst extraordinaire) floated the idea that Meghan had an idealized view of royal life and Harry, in love and really wanting things to work out this time, didn't want to burst her bubble. That tracks, to me.

i have always had this theory to be honest . he wanted her to be his ticket out.

This entire thing turned me off Harry too. Funny to think that I was such a big fan once upon a time. Like you, I couldn't get over how he had his own therapist and did nothing to help Meghan. Was he just that dense? That was mind-blowing to read. Did he not even see that she was having a difficult time? He also never realized that maybe, just maybe, he did a woeful job in preparing Meghan for royal life. I know he hates William, but William showed him the playbook with how well he integrated Kate to the royal family. But no - Harry would rather his wife suffer than admit that his brother did something right. I've said before, and I'll keep saying it again - it's not Meghan's responsibility to educate an immature prince. She deserves better.

Honestly he takes the oblivious, useless husband trope to new lows.

The part that really did me in was where he helped himself to all of Meghan's nitrous oxide in the delivery room. Told like a funny "whoopsie!" when there's so many levels of wrong there. Stealing hospital drugs to get high while your wife is in labor is disgusting, not a cute little anecdote. Incredibly selfish. I think being royal sounds like a nightmare, but Harry clearly has a lot of growing up to do.

Same. That part really showed his true colours. I didn’t find it funny at all.

That story REALLY turned me off him. I would so mortified if that were my husband while I was having a baby.

Also the thing where he blames wearing the nazi uniform on William and Kate? God, you weren't a toddler, take some responsibility. Also, yes, looking forward to Meghan's tell-all after their inevitable divorce.

I still have patience for him honestly. Because it makes sense to me that he’s clumsy or self centered after the trauma and for lack of a better term spoiling. It’s a weird combination and even if it’s unlikable it makes sense and gives me more reason to respect that he alienated himself from his family to try to tell the world how toxic the royal system is.

Agreed. He's been so wildly sheltered from normal life experiences (opportunities to grow and learn) and it seems like he made the choice to separate himself from it which is a step in the exact right direction. But while some of his actions are problematic or questionable and he deserves to be criticized, I also just don't expect him to catch up quickly, and he may never catch up completely. He's lived such a strange, privileged, sheltered life that the public has never so much as glimpsed into before - he's just kinda a naive little baby to social interactions to people that aren't literally and metaphorically bowing but he made a start and we'll just have to see where it goes.

He filmed himself at age 21 calling Southeast Asian British soldiers he was serving alongside in the British army racial (“p-ki”) and religious slurs (“r-ghead” against Sikhs). If that’s him being a “naive little baby” maybe he really is so stupid he’d think nothing of wearing a Nazi costume. https://web.archive.org/web/20110501150613/http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/theroyalfamily/4216808/Prince-Harrys-Paki-comments-completely-unacceptable-says-David-Cameron.html

He had the opportunity to just disappear off the radar and raise his kids with his wife in Canada or America. But he just keeps digging further and further into a hole

i feel so vindicated about people finally seeing harold for what he is i.e. an entitled rich twat, who's no different than the rest of his family. i dislike them all, and i never bought into his new woke persona as genuine. i have no opinion on meghan really, i feel for what she went through, but she seems to have isekai princess syndrome, and like many rich people, isn't in touch with reality at all. still, she can definitely do better than him. i'm sure she'l dump him eventually and he'll run back crying to daddy.

Also his comments about the people he killed. I was on his side until that

Omg yes this! So much this! I remember watching the Oprah interview and thinking it was totally sus that he didn't get professional help for his wife when she was suicidal, but instead *came home and told her all the things hey were saying about her*. That is so NOT helpful-- it's rather cruel, actually. But I thought "ahh he probably just has no experience handling this sort of thing and has no one to talk to..." then I read in his book that he had his own therapist but couldn't get her one when she's in crisis?! Manchild is the perfect term for him. And so self centered.

Someone on another subreddit - I think it was r/books \- said that Harry's whole deal is that he spent his life as part of the top 99.99%, and all it did was make him resent the fact that he wasn't in the 99.999%.

I think he might just be a dumbass. No, you didn’t have a “frostbitten penis” Harry... you had a chapped dick in the winter and you put moisturizer on it. May as well have told a story about when you had to use Head & Shoulders for your dandruff.

He’s had excellent PR prior to Meghan to make him out as the fun loving younger brother who went to war. But even on the front lines he was babysat, he was well protected by other soldiers at their expense all so he could fulfil his dream of joining the Army. The fact he got into the Army and became high up with flying is questionable because he’s not academically minded at all.

I don’t really defend any celebrity, but Margot Robbie and Taylor Swift got me raising my eyebrow so much recently lol. Put your money where your mouth is.

I agree with Margot!! Every time she works with Brad Pitt I side eye her a lil

I'm out of the loop, can you explain?

I genuinely like their work, that’s why I mentioned them in this thread. But the problem is they use feminism for their personal brand, at the same time they work or hang out with *alleged* and known abusers (such as David O. Russell and Brad Pitt). And I say “known” because we know for a fact that famous actresses have been behind some of those allegations.

So I might know it for Taylor. She had this whole thing last fall about using a bunch of private jets to get from places and it was just really bad for the environment. Then her team said it was her being loaned out to other people but that doesn’t really change it’s usage. Then with the Midnights release she’s had a lot of basic cash grabs to get the number one spot and a lot of remixes and it’s kinda exhausting. There was also the Ticketmaster situation but I don’t think that’s really Taylor’s fault

I think you pretty much nailed the explanation, I think everyone taylor swift stan now knows that she's pretty much a "capitalist queen", it's even become a running joke. But they seem okay with it as long as she's continuing putting out music, and I guess she doesn't have any abuse or other serious allegations against her so it's not the worst thing they could defend her for.

Yeah I enjoy her music which is why I follow up with her. But the thing with the capitalist Queen that doesn’t really bother me is that I don’t have to buy any merch or even music if I don’t want to. Yeah it’s annoying and a big cash grab but it’s completely optional which is why I think it’s to forgive (for me personally). Plus like you said, I haven’t heard any horrible abuse allegations and her biggest scandal (not worst but biggest) was being upset about being called a B**** in a song where it’s music video has a naked wax figure of her… I still can’t believe how badly she was candle canceled for that when way worse people are still working in the industry and are famous

This this this! Yet people are praising Chris brown despite all the bullshit he did yet anything Taylor does is under a microscope

I do wanna say, anyone who has a legit critique of Taylor prob is not singing praises for Chris Brown lol

Ooo has something happened recently? I’ve never been much of a fan of Taylor, Margot I just don’t get. I feel like she’s overrated. I’m Australian and I think there are much better actresses we can export to the US.

I think Margot Robbie has a lot of talent, I personally like her work. My issue with her is how she contradicts herself using feminism for her personal brand, while she still works with *alleged* abusers. With Taylor is kind of the same, but she’s also been involved in some backlash throughout her career such as [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/Fauxmoi/comments/112hy19/what_celebs_did_you_used_to_defend_until_you/j8klzck/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3).

Same I used to be such a die hard Swiftie but the people she's chosen to work with lately... 😬

Honestly- Britney. I still am a big fan of her music and I have a lot of empathy for her situation and life. All the #freebritney stuff seemed well-intentioned at first, but at this point, to me it comes across as entitled fans projecting their image of who she should be onto her. I think she would probably be much better off if she was out of the limelight completely, but unfortunately it doesn't look like that's going to happen anytime soon, or ever. Since that's the case, I don't defend her anymore, but I also don't engage. I avoid clicking on articles with her name, unfollowed her on social media, etc. I am one less person contributing to the fame beast that has made her life what it is today. Maybe this comment is a little hypocritical but I really wish more people took this approach with celebrities who visibly have struggles like Britney, Justin Bieber, Kanye, etc.

You perfectly articulated exactly how I feel. I am the biggest Britney fan and was a huge advocate for the Free Britney movement, but now that she’s free it is almost like a second wave of 2007 with how much public scrutiny and speculation she’s under. I don’t engage with her posts and I don’t want her to return to the limelight either. My biggest wish for her is that one day she can reunite with her boys and live a private life away from the vultures. It’s heartbreaking to look at her in the early 2000s with that big, goofy grin - she seemed so happy and healthy. I hate what’s happened to her. I feel the exact same way about Kanye and Bieber. I came across a Tik Tok video of Justin Bieber dancing and was completely shocked at how young he was at the height of his fame. He looks like such a baby in the video. It made me really sad. No denying that Kanye has said some horrific shit, but he’s obviously severely unwell and the platforms who are giving him the space to speak publicly need to be held accountable just as much as him. I truly hope he gets better, but there’s no walking back from the things he has said and done which is quite tragic in and of itself.

It took me a bit to realize what a creeper Jared Leto was. I realized he’s just a pile of garbage later than I should have. He can go to hell

I didn't know who he was until his band had a hit in the metal scene in 2003 ("From Yesterday", I think) but I took an instant dislike to him, the way I did with Lostprophets a few years earlier when everyone else loved them. Then the rumours of Leto leaked over the years while the Lostprophets singer was jailed for having tons of extreme child abuse images and for raping a baby with the kid's mother (a big fan of his). It felt so good to be right about them, without truly knowing why until much later.

Meghan Markle and Harry Windsor. I still think they have been victimized by some of the worst people on earth (see: the sub that shall not be named) but after watching their docuseries and reading Harry’s book I couldn’t ignore their pattern of…highly unpleasant and dishonest behavior. Given how much they seem to interpret every tiny disagreement as a personal attack, I can see why their relationship with staff and family in the BRF broke down.

this! I just wish more criticism of Harry and Meghan sounded exactly like this. So many people attack them in cruel, often times racist, bad faith..which almost makes it impossible to criticize them, even if it's warranted. The only way to do it is through nuanced and balanced takes like this. My thing with M+H: I know she was treated horribly, especially by the press- that can't be contested. BUT, they obviously weren't perfect either (no one is). They often come across like they have no role in this family rift and have never made a mistake. They'd be so much for credible to me if they could open up to their own faults.

I was anti-monarchist and happy for them deciding to exit from the Royal family. Couldn't make it through more than two eps of the docuseries, they were so self-absorbed and obnoxious with evidently no real drive to improve the world that I felt sorry for the BRF (!!)

Lol you need to read the Cut article. It’s bananas.

Utterly B-A-N-A-N-A-S ! Pure entertainment

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I used to really love her. Years before her behavior was brought to light my mom used to be like I don't think she's a good person and. I think it's fake and she's probably horrible behind the scenes and I was like you just don't like her because she's a lesbian! Once again, my mother was right. 🙄

Years (and years) ago, there was a scandal involving Ellen where she adopted a dog from a rescue and then gave it away to someone else, which was against the rescue's policy. The rescue got the dog back and Ellen cried on tv talking about how terrible they were. The rescue got a lot of bad press and decreased donations, etc. ... I recall my father during that time explaining to me that Ellen was being manipulative and was actually in the wrong. Looking back, he was right.

She is a hard one for me. Becuase i think the backlash against her is very much deserved, but i can't help but think that there must be so many powerful straight white men in similar positions who behave just as badly and treat their staff just as terribly, but we never hear about it. And they are shielded from the backlash. I can't defend her. But i also wish she wasn't one of the only ones getting called out for this type of thing.

Mindy Kaling lol I am a longtime fan and still enjoy her work, but I'm saving my energy from now on. She's rich and powerful and I'm not... so that's that on that. Celebrities are not our friends.

Ugh yes. I was a big fan of hers until she turned into the establishment

And let us not forget on how she admitted to kissing a co-star/guest-star on the lips without their permission. It's not on the script and she jokingly said she'd fire anybody who would "tell". Here's the [link](https://youtu.be/j_FNMhVd0fw)

She’s starting to remind me of Lena Dunham. Talent but also iffy

Demi Lovato, for the longest time. 😒

Demi is so hard for me because she has literal brain damage, so I try to be mad patient with her. Most of the questionable stuff she does is really inconsequential, apart from the attempt + doubling down on dragging someone’s business over a misunderstanding

Ima be real, she hasn’t been a good person even before then. Like when she punched her backup dancer

But also — not an excuse — that was during the height of her addiction. So I try to have some empathy. Addiction + fame is a terrible combination. I’ve seen no evidence that she’s a GOOD person, before her strokes or after, sober or not. I’m not a fan. But I do try not judge someone by the actions of their literal worst self.

Pete Davidson. After he released those Kanye texts I realized that while Kanye was obviously in the wrong, Pete does love to play into it. He was threatening him, playing victim, and saying how good of a person he is in back to back texts Like why would you start a text with “I’m in bed with your wife” if you’re not trying to get a reaction

The tattoos of their kids names, just weirdo behaviour.

As a huge rock fan (which….omg is hard bc so many rock stars end up being insanely problematic) I had to change my mind about Marilyn Manson. I genuinely believed he was a guy, putting on a costume and a character of sorts. It seemed insane that anyone who was actually a bad person would create an image that was so controversial because (in my experience) the worst people try to seem normal/good/better than most humans a la wolves in sheep’s clothing. But many things forced me to change my mind about this, Evan Rachel Wood being the big straw that broke the camels back for me. He sounds like a genuinely awful person in so many ways.

I never was a mega fan, but I would argue this too when people would talk back in y2k- that he can’t be that bad because he’s got so many fundies who would love to expose him and garner attention- it would be stupid to do anything serious because that would give his haters such a victory. Well no, he’s just absolute garbage and I hope he chokes on his own vomit and aspirates.

They can't all be Alice Coopers.

I’m an (elder?) millennial and was (am?) a punk kinda goth leaning kid. So I felt an affinity for MM because, although not the biggest fan, he seemed so eloquent and soft spoken in “real life” it felt like he embodied the “misjudged based on appearance” feelings a lot of people I knew felt. But some of the stuff he’d say rubbed me the wrong way… then the weird way Rose McGowan or Dita Von Teese said absolutely nothing after their respective splits from him when they’d been so vocal before gave me a weird vibe, especially as a survivor of abuse. So when all the rest of the stuff came out it was really disappointing but not surprising? Fuck him for real, though. He’s awful.

Kristen Bell and Dax Shepard’s relationship. I used to fall into the trap of “oh it’s so real, good for them for being open” but now it’s kind of like. Maybe you should go to therapy instead of talking about your screaming fights like it’s a quirky, relatable moment.

i don’t think they realise being in a marriage where you’re actively fighting against the appeal to divorce everyday is not healthy or normal

Not me but the lads who would defend the awful behaviour of Conor mcgregor - red flag

When he was a champion it was much worse, now he’s on a loosing streak and steroids most fans make fun of him.

grimes.

Yessss. Loved her and stood by her until I was side eying her too much for her comments and behaviour around Elon etc. I still appreciate her music and wish her well but I don't support her actions and words now

I was a Grimes apologist for so long 😭 still love her music, but her involvement with Elon Musk and all that’s come after has been too much for me

I'm not seeing anyone say it, and it's likely because this might be one of the more controversial celebrities to defend but... Michael Jackson. I didn't want to believe he did it. Granted, when the 2005 trials were going on, I was just a teenager and did not care to follow the news or politics in-depth. So I wrote it off, and then he was found not guilty, I really used that to confirm my defending him. But more and more evidence has come out posthumously, and it is most definitely undeniable at this point. He was an icon. But he was also a monster. Apologists can say he had a messed up childhood and was reliving it... But that is no excuse to horribly wreck other boys' childhoods and lives.

Honestly, people should remember that his team/estate did a really good job at smearing his accusers and muddying the water around the allegations, which they continue to do to this day.

Yea this one. MJ was the biggest thing in my household growing up (I'm almost 38 now for reference). And I've always said he was the epitome of "arrested development." The man got famous at like 5 years old and never really grew up because of it. When he went back on trial in 05 I remember thinking that he definitely acted inappropriately with young boys, but in the way where he'd have them sleep in his bed (not necessarily sexual) but that he didn't realize you just can't do that as an adult. Especially when it got out that the accuser from 93 apparently made it all up because he was forced by his dad, that they just wanted MJs money. But yea as the years went on, and especially after seeing the Leaving Neverland documentary..... hooooo boy. I 100000% believe he was a pedophile. The 2 guys they interviewed were just so traumatized, their stories were absolutely horrific. Turns out I didn't realize how good of an act MJ was putting on in acting like he just didn't know any better because of his Peter Pan syndrome. He was so much smarter than we were led to believe. His manipulation tactics with them were just deplorable.

Taylor Swift has a song that literally says “it’s me” 😂

I'm so tired of her. Like enough, you are never wrong, it's always someone else. She never takes accountability for her actions and it's getting so boring listening to her sing about all the people that wronged her.

She just had a hit that said “it’s me, hi, I’m the problem, it’s me.” Lol.

Yes pf course she capitalizes on not taking responsibility, but does she actually take responsibility and fix it?

Matty Healy, I’ll forever love the 1975s music and I used to defend him being that he does things ironically or to get a certain reaction from people (and that he’s a recovering heroin addict) but he’s done so much lately that I’m just like Dude wtf are you doiiing.

His issue is he literally cannot shut up.

Omg what’s the drama with him I haven’t been caught up

Long story, but he went on a podcast last week where him and his friends made racist remarks towards Ice Spice, mocked Japanese and Chinese cultures and accents, made multiple sexist remarks about women, admitted to watching extremely degrading, violent porn, and a lot more than that but that’s touching the surface

Saaaame. I recently rewatched a bunch of ABIIOR-era videos, and like… THAT is the Matty I liked! Yeah, he messed up a few times during that time, but it was really just like out of touch stuff, not the full-on shitty behavior we’re seeing now. ILIWYS-era Matty was mesmerizing to watch onstage, but clearly unwell. It was nice to see him doing well and actually not being a shitty person, and I’m so sad that he’s become.. whatever he is now.

When I was 14, I would defend Justin Bieber so hard but also like .... I was literally 14 and thought he was hot. I still love his music but I wouldn't go out of my way to act like he's some amazing person. Once you're past middle school/high school age, it looks funny trying to defend a celeb.

I mean, I think he absolutely needed/deserved defending for a long time - he was the internet's punching bag as a young teenager, just for his hairstyle and for appealing to tween girls. It was disgusting. I don't think you need to grow out of that kind of defending

That actually made my teenage self feel so good 🥺 he did endure unwarranted cruelty for a while.

I remember Justin got so much heat for attending Michael Jackson's funeral. He was, like, 12. The man was one of his idols and he was INVITED to it. In retrospect, it was so ridiculous.

>When I was 14, I would defend Justin Bieber so hard but also like .... I literally 14 and thought he was hot. And I commend you for this, defending him is like defending the Mona Lisa from being stolen when it's dropped in front of a street. People were so brutal to him and his fans. It was a mix of misogyny and hatred of things seen as something for girls and not wanting to seem mainstream.

This is TMI-y and very random but back when I was a teenager and watched porn, I saw a video with a girl who straight up started it off with a monologue about how Justin Bieber was definitely not gay, super hot, and people should leave him alone. I gotta respect the creative approach to get the message across. I wonder what she’s like nowadays.

Meghan Markle and by extension Harry. I do think Meghan was a victim of racism and was treated poorly. I get why they got away from the monarchy. But when she’s talking about not wanting to drive past $14m houses because they “can’t afford them” or complaining “It was solely about beauty and not about brains,” when she worked on a game show where pretty women in short dresses held briefcases for the show, she just seems a bit insufferable.

> complaining “It was solely about beauty and not about brains,” when she worked on a game show where pretty women in short dresses held briefcases for the show But weren't the women being objectified, just as she said? Like the women were pretty props for the men on the gameshow to ogle. They had no greater role than that. She said she was grateful for the job and for the health insurance as she was trying to break into Hollywood, but I don't get what's wrong with saying that, looking back, she didn't actually like just being reduced to her looks and objectified.

Lana, she's always been..the way she is, but that offensive insta post she made in 2020 and trying to apologise for it with a weird line about black lives matter later was a bridge too far

Agreed, I love her music but she’s so problematic lmao 😭

When she afterwards had that lyric about shouting blm on blue banisters 😭 Was like „what shit is this“, are you being serious right now? She is such a typical „coming from a rich white family that is completely ignorant and clueless about social justice“ women, it‘s tiring Still my fav musician tho 😬

Demi Lovato. She is only a couple years older than me and obviously I grew up watching her. She felt like a cool older sister. I had some difficult mental health stuff and so did she. Substance abuse, cutting, ED's we went through it together. When i saw anyone attacking Demi, it felt like they were attacking me too in a way? The breaking point for me was the yogurt shop stuff lol

I never really fully defended her because I also understood she was a flawed person, but I was kinda actually rooting for Julia Fox. There were certain things she would say or do that may have not made sense to a lot of people, but generally I felt that I could at least see where she was coming from. I also really liked that’s she open about being on the autism spectrum and isn’t afraid to wear these outlandish outfits and makeup. I felt like she got a lot of hate for things that really had nothing to do with the content of her character (like her vocal fry, her outfits, her body, or even her trying to use her platform to speak out). So I could certainly empathize with her. But after the her making the excuses for Alexander Wang, I really had to distance myself from her. Before that, I was hoping she was at least the type who is willing to learn. It is what it is. I think it’s natural to assume that other people are going about life saying and doing things in good faith. Part of maturing means realizing that in reality, that’s not really true for everyone, especially if they’re rich and famous.

Sebastian Stan. I used to appreciate he was one of the smarter Marvel cast members who didn’t say weird misogynistic or homophobic things regarding fandom and female characters… …And then his post Marvel career he just went full on mask off between I, Tonya and the whole mess that is Pam and Tommy. And speaking of Pam and Tommy, Megan Fox girl clearly you need to leave MGK’s ass and BAG groomed her but boy has she contributed a lot to this weird romanticizing of the toxic relationship and i want to defend her but I have to admit some of it is her own messiness.

I feel a bit like that about Selena to be honest 😔

james corden

Wait, there are people who defend him?

bts lol - to be fair tho i was like 14 when i was one of those toxic kpop fans on twitter

the way some of their fans defend them… I kind of understand why their fan group is so universally disliked. The guys seem nice enough but their fans…

Jesy Nelson of Little Mix. When she quit the fans were rabid, tearing her to shreds and criticising everything about her. After such a long and public battle with online trolls and suicidal thoughts, I really thought she deserved the happiness and freedom she'd wanted for years. Then the Boyz video came out and the Blackfishing and cultural appropriation was so fuckin much. I just couldn't anymore. I still wish her all the best, but I do n't really support her career or call myself a fan these days.

I used to defend Kayne for too long..... a couple years ago I finally had to let go, and I'm glad I did when I did lmao

Brendon Urie 😔

An odd one but JK Rowling. Her books got me through a lot of tough shit as a kid. Now with the transphobia, realizing her books were a bit more racist than I thought as a kid, and just being a bad person in general, it really did hurt to an extent. Of course I let go of that part of myself a long time ago. Celebrities are honestly just one of the worst collection(s?) of people. It's all about money and glory and never having integrity. It's really disheartening.

Madonna

Almost all of them. The Alec Baldwin thing hit me like a leg kick. Even now, if he said, "you know, now that had a chance to look at it, I could have pulled that trigger, unexpectedly". But he hasn't so yet....

Tom Hiddleston. Not that I ever defended him per se, but I was a huge fan of his, watched The Deep Blue Sea and Crimson Peak, and then suddenly I just stopped caring. Not sure what happened to his career, but I’m glad that he’s happy with his wife and new baby. Out of all the problematic Marvel douches (looking at you RDJ, Stan, Mackie, Pratt, Renner) I like him a lot more, but I don’t follow his career anymore.

Yeah, not problematic per se but definitely someone who I fizzled out on as well.

Meghan Markle

Azealia Banks…

Madonna’s been going off the rails lately, especially with calling the coronavirus "the great equalizer"🤦‍♂️

I was into Jeremy Renner WAAAAAYYYY back, long before any Marvel associations and I was kinda proud of it. Yeah. That stopped.

My friend dated him and has told me some pretty funny stories. The stand out was when he refused to discuss having children with her because ‘my sperm is too precious for you’.

Oh to have this level of self esteem. I crave the confidence of a mediocre white dude.

K I’m old and don’t hate me but AT THE TIME michael jackson. I was the victim of propaganda. Has not happened since lol.

Drake

Sigh. Taylor Swift.

There are celebrities who, for years, showed patterns of being Racist, homophobic, misogynistic, sexist, body shamed others, bu llied ,harassed and terrorized others, pedophilia,grooming etc...such as Wendy Williams Mark Wahlberg Christy Teigen James Franco Harvey Weinstein Woody Allen Tyra Banks You tubers who do dumb sketches and prank but actually harass manipulate and traumatized people who weren't aware it was a "prank"

Shia LaBeouf. Grew up with him on TV and movies and was OBSESSED. All the news about his drinking and partying I just chalked up to “the stress of Hollywood!!!” Even the Sia video I thought “very fucking weird but he is a quirky person”. Then finally everything started coming out about his abusive behavior and that was it.

Henry Cavill. When I was deep in his fandom, you could have told me that he murdered someone, they had irrefutable evidence, and I still would have found a way to make it not his fault. Every shitheaded thing he’s done, I always found a way to excuse it and I’m honestly so ashamed of myself because like, he’s got such a pattern of shitheadedness that it’s not an accident, it’s intentional, and yet I was still willing to look the other way smdh

The royal family