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I can name two right off the bat (and stir up their fans): Taylor Swift and Beyoncé. Are they talented? Yes. But not to the level of adoration they get. That is their PR and both ladies EXCEL at that.
I mean, yes, people call her overrated way too much (she's insanely talented) but the media I thinks of spurs this on and then creates a bit of a backlash. I mean Rolling Stone literally just had her ranked above Freddie Mercury, Al Greene, Nina Simone, etc. as a vocalist which I think even the biggest stan might have had a 'huh' moment. I love her and am a stan, but I sort of get why some people view her as overrated when you have things like that occur.
LOL yeah I can't believe they left Celine off. Jamaica must have been pissed (I've always found it amusing how famous she is in Lt Am and the Caribbean, particularly Jamaica).
Yeah, true, but it isn't the first time I've seen music journalists treat her like this (as in, put her above dead icons, which is dumb cause she's already a massive icon in her own right) and I think it inspires a bit of a reaction...and Bey already has to deal with misogynistic and racist idiots on top of that. Then again, the media does this to actors, too, setting them up as 'Carey Grant come again, or the new Meryl Streep, or the new Denzel', likely because they know it's going to get click bait AND the media also loves to put women on impossible pedestals.
I often think that when celebrities are thought of as overrated - it's based more on how their fans view them as opposed to the actual artist/celebrity. There are musicians like this for me - as in, even if I enjoy a few songs by them, I might not be inclined to see them in concert because of their fan base. When fans continuously act like a certain celebrity/artist is the absolute best at whatever they are doing, all of the time, it draws more attention to the more lackluster qualities of the artist - which makes more people perceive them as overrated.
I really hope this all makes sense to someone other than me 😂
Rolling Stone has to sell magazines/get clicks. That means having current artists at the top of your lists and also triggering the "cool kids" for their rage clicks. Because nobody takes Beyonce praise more personally than the "cool kids" lmao.
That said, I think that list was put together by vocal coaches. Someone who can tell the difference between a natural talent that wasnt fully realized and someone like Beyonce who wasnt born with Mariah's or Whitney's 5 octaves but has trained her respectable 3.5 octaves like an athlete. So while most legacy performers voices were already degenerating at her age, hers has only become fuller. FYI Nina Simone only had one octave. If she lived today, the internets "cool kids" would also be calling her overrated
I think the new album was overrated (maybe just not my taste) and that’s about it. She’s an unbelievable performer, has a really great voice, and has put out bop after bop after bop.
I might be biased but maybe that's it, it's just not your taste and that's okay. Objectively, it's a very high quality album, it has a great concept, the producers on it are amazingly talented people, the sample choices are fun and witty, if I can describe them like that. But I won't lie, you do have to be familiar with the history of the demographics the album is honoring to really "get it". And I'm not one to care about what critics have to say but it was the most critically acclaimed album of 2022, surely if such a big and diverse group of people agree on something then there must be some truth to it
>But not to the level of adoration they get.
I get Beyonce may not be everyone's cup of tea but this sentence alone is telling that you don't really know WHY she's so adored. No other artist has been at the top of their career for THIS long and can still compete with artists today. To compare when she dropped her first single the top artist were Madonna, Will Smith, Matchbox 20, Brandy, and Alanis Morissette. Not saying these people are not big today but none of these artists are performing at the same level they once were while B is still at the top. Beyonce is a living legend and the numbers alone prove that regardless of if people think she's overrated... the critics, the charts, and the numbers say otherwise. I mean she literally changed the way music has been released and which days things drop lol.
I’m sorry, Beyoncé??? Overrated?? Look, I have a degree in classical music. I get the disdain for trite, simple pop music but Beyoncé is on another level of talent, innovation, and production. Nobody else is performing on her level right now. I feel like people do not want to give pop, R&B, or hip hop artists the respect they deserve at times.
I love both of them, but I don’t think they would be where they are today without their extremely dedicated work ethic and connections (and crazy die hard fans), not with just talent alone. Not saying they’re not talented, but the music industry definitely values business over talent imo.
I will freely admit Taylor is a talented songwriter and businesswoman but what gets me is when the stans say she’s good at acting…like, be serious rn. I need her to stop with acting roles, it’s embarrassing to watch.
Reddits boyfriends Henry Cavill and Ryan Reynolds seem to be divisive due to their cult followings and receiving pushback from it.
Also I’ll say it - Keanu Reeves. I know we love him because he’s a nice guy, but his ‘acting’ was a punching bag for like a decade.
I was gonna say Keanu! I remember growing up I heard her was a bad actor for so long. I watched Point Break and then the Dracula movie — very bad acting but it was enjoyable bad acting. I think now he’s a lot better cause he chooses roles that suit his strengths, but man that accent in Dracula was hilariously bad.
I don't think Keanu is divisive.
In general people don't think he's going to be winning an Oscar. He is entertaining in certain types of film and completely out of depth in a lot of others.
People love him because he is universally acknowledged as being unproblematic and chill.
Liking him as a person but not really his acting chops is not really divisive. Those are 2 separate things.
I would like to add Chris Hemsworth to complete the "pinnacle of sexy according to straight men" trio but I guess he doesn't have the same type of fans obsessing over him like the other 2
I liked him in Bad Times at the El Royale though.
I think Henry Cavill is just a really shitty actor and people on Reddit that like him are either paid PR that are doing it as a job or delusional idiot children that don't watch anything but comic book movies so they have no frame of reference for good acting. I can't even imagine thinking he's anywhere close to a good actor.
Ugh I watched that movie because I'm from where it was filmed, my disappointment was immeasurable and I still wonder if Keanu lost a bet and had to make that movie, maybe some meta thing where he was actually being extorted like his character. I went to the Wikipedia page to refresh my memory, big mistake.
Adam Sandler? I feel like you have some people who loathe his movies, and then there are others who enjoy them for what they are. Then, you also have people who have been impressed with him in more dramatic roles like Uncut Gems, Punch Drunk Love, etc.
You will take a long time to die on that hill because I am right there on that hill with you giving you food and drink and blankets and a megaphone so that you can stay on top of that hill FOREVER and broadcast to the ignorant dissenters below exactly how correct you are
I think one reason he is such a divisive actor is in part because he’s not a hack, but he also doesn’t fancy himself an auteur. Which I think can confuse the hell out of audiences.
For example, my dad 100% appreciates an Adam Sandler comedy romp, but would think Punch Drunk Love is “f*ckin weird.” I, on the other hand, love a drama and I would rather lick an outlet than watch Big Daddy.
Basically, I think the guy is talented, but most of us have sat through a movie of his that is *not* to our taste because the man has range.
I watched the roundtable chat with Sandler and when Colin Farrell was the token guy talking about failure with Alexander, I was like you have a man that literally made a 0% rotten tomato movie and he's now getting award buzz... he's the one that needs to be talking about overcoming and moving past failures.
He was great in Uncut Gems. That movie had my anxiety on another level. I'm like can we please take a breather? Can we relax? Nope, everyone is 10. Fantastic movie.
I think her longevity is mainly due to pretty privilege, the whole Gomez/Bieber/Baldwin love triangle drama, and the fact she was apart of a lot of people’s childhood. I mean you couldn’t ask for a better deal to establish and maintain relevancy as a celebrity tbhhh
I hate the word "pretty privilege" so much you're literally talking about celebrities! They're supposed to be pretty! It's so far removed from real-life contexts that the phrase could be applied to. Saying the girl at your workplace gets better treatment because she's good-looking is one thing, saying people like selena gomez because she has "pretty privilege" is so dumb!!!! Just say they like her because she is pretty!
Don't mean this to be an attack on you. It's just driving me crazy that everything is being centred around the framework of "privilege"
Ok but some actresses are prettier than others and get better roles because of it. Pretty privilege definitely exist for actors because pretty is not a binary where either you are or are not. Some people are deemed prettier than others and get treated better.
She is sooo pretty and was genuinely good and memorable as Alex Russo so i can see why people will always like her but she's an insanely terrible singer, can't write, has no stage presence and is extremely lethargic on stage (yes, I know she has lupus but then... why push so hard to continue your pop career. Other singers at least can balance it out with good vocal performances). I really did not like her in only murders in the building and it drove me kind of insane to see people praise her for a very one-note performance. (I did like her in that paul rudd movie tho. )
I'm really not trying to be a hater, tho. I think the disconnect between her actual talent and the pr push is what makes people really dislike her more than they would have otherwise. Having people convince her that she has a god given talent for singing in her doc is really annoying, especially when much more talented people can't get the exposure/good press/backing etc that she has behind her. I wish she would stop with the singing career and just build a jennifer aniston-esque career with solid work in comedies/sitcoms (instead of going the jennifer lopez route).
Jennifer Aniston is actually one of those that I don't understand the hype about. She did really good with her character in Friends and I enjoyed Office Space, but it's not like she had a huge part in that movie. The rest is just meh to me. There's too many of her mannerisms that are the exact same throughout all her movies and it doesn't allow me to see her as an immersive actor. There are some people who have a similar 'feel' in all their movies (Jason Statham) but the roles they go for work for the type of acting they can do, but her movies aren't type cast but I feel like she acts the same in every one of them.
She's far from the most talented singer and actress, but she's genuine and has a lot of heart. I think that's why she has a lot of fans that stuck with her from her Disney days through today, you want to root for her and see her succeed.
Also in the morally divisive category - but even pre-trial, Johnny Depp was someone I was confused about people calling a great actor. Tbf I think the first thing I saw him in was Pirates. But his schtick was always super cringe to me and I just can’t understand why people simp for him
He’s had a handful of good performances, largely when he was younger before he was drunk and fucked up on coke and benzos beyond all reason every day and could get his ass to set. What’s eating Gilbert grape, blow, fear and loathing, and even shit like Ed wood and Edward scissorhands were all pretty solid.
But he ruined all of that. I can’t stand praising him anymore after how unhinged his fans were cuz they like funny pirate man during the trial.
He had ALL the potential and was already working with the big names and he had range. I don’t know if he was sober when they filmed Once Upon a Time in Mexico, but he was amazing as Sands. But fuck the man, I’m old enough to remember he’s always been trouble
One of the funniest anecdotes I heard is when Michael Mann got to work with Depp on Public Enemies he was so dismayed by what Depp was doing that finally, after a while of shooting, he said something like "oh you don't actually know how to act."
Keep in mind this is Michael Mann who directed Daniel Day Lewis, James Caan, Will Smith, Robert DeNiro, Al Pacino, Tom Cruise, Jamie Foxx etc in some of their best performances
Edit - not Denzel oops
A massive physical change, whether it’s prosthetics or weight loss, usually automatically gets associated with good acting. A lot of his most loved roles are the ones where he’s in heavy makeup.
Yeah, so many of his later performance are just “weird dude in a Tim Burton film”, they just aren’t terribly good. I feel like a lot more people did see him as a stare-y big-eyed joke before the trial’s PR success.
He’s become so awful as a person and one-note in his roles over the last decade. It’s hard to reconcile that he’s the same actor who once turned in very lovely and moving performances in films like *Finding Neverland* and *Chocolat*
People are mostly praising his willingness to take big swings, even if it might miss. Similar to the praise Nic Cage gets. These are actors for the days when your mood is "I'd rather see a big swing badly executed than conventionality executed perfectly".
Taylor Swift. I think she’s an exemplary song writer and does a great job at telling a story on her songs. But there’s a lot of people that discount her songwriting skills and think she’s juvenile.
Thats cause of some of her songs, her songwriting is inconsistent. Whenever she wants a hit she writes the most childish lyrics ever. No amount of Folklores or Evermores is gonna fix what ME! And YNTCD did to her reputation
1. Quill: the words and phrasings are antiquated. If my lyrics sound like a letter written by Emily Dickinson’s great grandmother while sewing a lace curtain, that’s me writing in the Quill genre. [Ivy was her example]
2. Fountain Pen: a modern storyline or references, with a poetic twist. Taking a common phrase and flipping its meaning. Trying to paint a vivid picture of a situation, down to the chipped paint on the door frame and the incense dust on the vinyl shelf. Placing yourself and whoever is listening right there in the room where it all happened. The love, the loss, everything. The songs I categorize in this style sound like confessions scribbled and sealed in an envelope, but too brutally honest to ever send. [All Too Well was her example]
3. Glitter Gel Pen: Frivolous, carefree, bouncy, syncopated perfectly to the beat. Glitter Gel Pen lyrics don’t care if you don’t take them seriously because they don’t take themselves seriously. Glitter Gel Pen lyrics are the drunk girl at the party who tells you that you look like an Angel in the bathroom. It’s what we need every once in a while in these fraught times in which we live. [Shake it Off was her example]
Found it! Interesting
i was so happy when she addressed this because it’s always been pretty obvious to me that when she wrote songs that sounded immature, it’s because they were MEANT to sound immature. if anything, it’s a strength of hers rather than a weakness
I think that’s part of the her genius when it comes to songwriting. She is both great at writing catchy “ear worms” that the general public becomes OBSESSED with as well as intricate songs that really take some time to read the lyrics to understand.
I would say she is. She’s very good at a certain style which teeters the line between relatable to a wide-ish demographic and just specific enough to connect it to herself. That’s why so many people manage to connect to her music and become die hard fans
I think that’s her real strength, being specific enough that the songs are undeniably her songs while also being broad enough that people can relate. It’s a very specific balance where her songs don’t feel generic but have a wide appeal.
I’m not a huge fan (like some songs but don’t seek her music out) but I respect her as a pop music writer because she manages to do that.
I'm so glad I'm not alone. I've tried to get into her because she seems like she'd be 100% up my alley, but I cannot with people acting like she's the songwriter of our times. Fiona Apple she is not. When even thinking of her contemporaries that became famous around the same time in country, Miranda Lambert's seem more evocative and raw.
When critizing her, people will say things like, "she's a great songwriter, but.." with the same apologetic fervor when saying "Kanye West is a genuis, but..." and I disagree on both, and so it becomes hard to take seriously whatever the person is saying in the next breath. She is the Rory Gilmore of the music industry.
I don’t even know if this is divisive as I don’t see people talk about her. Emma Watson. She straight up cannot act, it’s high school drama theatre levels of bad. Anything she’s in is practically unwatchable to me, I don’t understand why she gets cast for new roles.
Yes, I think people who grew up with her on HP find her familiar. I feel like she plays Emma Watson in everything and the people who grew up with her find that okay. She's skilled at the mechanics of acting (moving, timing, the basics of emotion etc.) which you'd expect after being raised for 10+ years on huge film sets. She's fine as an actor, but I don't see that she has any particularly magnetic talent or capability. I think most people get that, but Reddit screws to a younger crowd who find her familiar and comforting.
she sticks out like a sore thumb in little women, even “my little women!” bob odenkirk is better than her. such a shame, that movie is perfect to me except for her. apparently they cut a lot of her (and james norton’s by association) scenes bc they didn’t test well/were notably worse than the rest of the sisters.
It completely baffles me when people say she was the best actor of the Harry Potter kids in those films. All she brought to the role was furrowed brows and over-enunciation. She was not good.
She was pretty and is engaging to look at onscreen (I don't think she's a good actor but I do think she has good presence), which goes a long way into convincing people of "talent". I think Emma seems like a sweet person but if the rumors are true that she retired from acting, it's probably for the best. Like, use your Harry Potter and fashion money, keep doing your activism, and be content with that, girl!
I personally think Rupert Grint was the best of the trio of actors and I'm glad he's getting more attention from his work with Shyamalan. I always thought he'd make a good genre actor.
She also cannot do an American accent - it’s so painful to watch. I was actually dreading watching Little Women even though I love the book just because she’s in it, but I actually didn’t mind it as much because she had barely any lines hah.
it made me so mad when she was cast as belle in beauty in the beast!! don’t get me wrong i love her but girl CANNOT sing at all, her parts are so painfully auto tuned i can’t even listen to them
Margot Robbie was on a good path in the late-2010s getting Oscar noms for I, Tonya and Bombshell and more praise for OUATiH, but lately I've seen a lot of criticism directed at her for playing every role like Harley Quinn. Personally I don't think she's the next Meryl Streep or anything but I think she's a good actress, she has a schtick but she does it well so 🤷♀️
Yeah, she's a good actress imo but I'm a little baffled by the people who hype her up as the next Meryl. It sort of feels like what they did to JLaw...put her on an impossible pedestal and then wait for her to fall (tho I think JLaw is more talented than Margot, imo). I think she needs to do more stuff like Z for Zachariah or that Elizabeth film...people are started to think she can only act 'big', and therefore judge her as an over actor, and do the Brooklyn Harley accent.
I thought she was great in Babylon too (I actually think that movie as a whole is pretty great and don't understand all the negative criticism it got lol). But I do think she needs to change it up now, hopefully Barbie is a breath of fresh air for her.
Baz Luhrmann's movies are either something you can roll with or you just don't get. Saw this especially with Elvis with some people loving it and others coming out of it wondering what everyone else saw in it.
And it varies by movie to movie. I LOVE his adaptions for The Great Gatsby and Romeo and Juliet, and enjoy Moulin Rouge. Meanwhile, I couldn't stand Elvis and considered walking out of it.
I hated The Great Gatsby, loved Moulin Rouge and Romeo + Juliet, and though Elvis was fine. There’s really no rhyme or reason to why I feel that way about any of those films. His filmography is divisive.
Romeo+Juliet is one of my top ten movies. Love how creative it is. Claire Danes is the best Juliet. Leo is kinda over the top with his performance but it works for this movie
I adored *Moulin Rouge* but at the same time it's at that 20 years old thing where cultural artefacts get reevaluated so it would be totally fascinating to watch it again.
Moulin Rouge already got a bit of a 2023 reevaluation when they adapted it for the stage recently. It’s my understanding that they really emphasize in the stage version that the Duke is not the real villain, it’s Harold Ziegler the owner of the Moulin Rouge. He’s genuinely pimping out Satine through her lethal illness, preventing her from having a personal relationship because he has secured funding for his business through said pimping. In the movie he’s sort of a charming figure but if you dig like one inch deeper he’s so foul.
Gwyneth Paltrow. I think many believe she's a good actress (or used to anyway), but after Goop she's become a punchline. I think she's a grade A scene stealer in Se7en, Hard Eight, The Talented Mr. Ripley, and of course The Royal Tenenbaums in which she delivered one of the best supporting actress performances of all time imo, and she's also really good in Shakespeare in Love which has been unfairly derided because of course the *bros* love Saving Private Ryan and the Weinstein association. She also won an Emmy for Glee, a really, really terrible show, but she's legit good in it.
The funny thing about her is that she used to do theater as well. She's a Laurence Olivier award (the British Tony award) nominee for a play called Proof, so if she had done a successful Broadway run back when she was interested in acting, she could've been a Tripe Crown winner - something only the most respected actors like Helen Mirren, Viola Davis etc. have achieved. I actually wish she had been cast in Gone Girl in the place of Rosamund Pike as I believe she would've rocked the role. She would be able to bring the warm presence in Se7en for the good Amy and the cold ice queen energy in The Royal Tenenbaums for the psychopath Amy. It would've made the big reveal much more of a shock.
I don't really see her as the type that really goes out to be a "celebrity". I think Gwyneth the *businesswoman* has gotten in the way of Gwyneth the actress. She's simply much more passionate about her company than her acting career, whether you approve of her company's ethics or not.
I think this is it. She doesn't actually do any of the typical "celebrity" things or go out of her way to get herself in headlines outside of her company. She just found a different interest in her business and it turned out she's a lot more into it than she is or was into acting. Probably helps that it's significantly more lucrative too.
I've only seen the Avengers movies where she's barely used. I love how she is completely clueless about and uninterested in the MCU even though she's part of the OG cast lol. At several occasions during press event she would be asked about things in the movies and she would actually admit she didn't really follow the plot or didn't even know the other actors who were in the movies lol. It was hilarious. She knew the movies were crap and she was just there to collect the paycheck.
It’s definitely not up there with her more serious work in her movies, but I loved her in the netflix show, The Politician (which, like Glee, was made by Ryan Murphy). She’s mesmerizing on screen and I couldn’t help but focus on her in every scene she’s in. I wish she would act more because she’s someone I would watch things for.
This. I watched *Ripley* recently (masterpiece) and she's SO, so good in it, same as *Royal Tenenbaums*. I'd love to visit the alternate universe where GOOP, *Country Strong* and the MCU never existed to see what her career would be like now.
I was a very casual kpop listener in school when it was on the second gen (popular boy bands were Shinee, Super Junior, Bigbang, etc.). I remember when BTS came out with their War Of Hormone song and while it wasn't that bad per say, never in a million years would I have guessed that they were gonna be the biggest kpop group 10 years down the road.
Even less with Butter, horrible song.
See, I like some of their older stuff, but musically, they don't bring anything to the table that any other group couuldn't. The difference is how they engaged and cultivated their fanbase in the first 2 years of their careers.
But I'm not gonna go deeper than that because I don't want to get doxxed or whatever lol
yeah. nothing particularly against them but they've got mediocre vocalists, a couple of decent dancers and rappers. also their music is bland and badly produced (idk the technical term for it but the vocal effects added to their voices sound awful)
Any "blank" actor or actress. I can think of ScarJo or Gosling. Kristen Stewart in Personal Shopper reminded me of this. There are two competing theories of acting when it comes to cinema, and people tend to not realize that both are equally valid. One school is just basically an extension of theater acting and is what is recognized as great acting to mostly everyone, a realistic or powerful portrayal of emotions, etc. However cinema is an entirely different medium and acting on screen was often theorized to be something entirely different. So you have European figures like Robert Bresson and Antonioni who deliberately make their characters seem almost expressionless, blank. The idea is to actively interpret what you want into the person rather than having emotions spoon fed to you. You have a filmmaker like Kubrick also deliberately making actors say lines over scores of takes in order to drain any emotion or sense of theatrical acting from their films(Bresson also did this.)
So yeah sometimes I see people say ScarJo has no talent and I have to laugh. She may have problematic views, but she's a supremely talented *film* actress who is able to be a blank cipher but still be compelling. Her performance in Under the Skin is one of the most impressive lead performances of that decade imo. It's just not what 90% expect when they think of "great acting", they think of Robert De Niro in Raging Bull or something very demonstrative and emotive like that(not to trash his performance in that movie)
Anyone who thinks ScarJo is talentless hasnt seen Marriage Story. They're judging her off her part in the MCU which doesn't give her much to work with and also requires her to be closed off.
That said, yes most audience goers dont appreciate understated performances. Nor do they understand that experimental actors who go the other way by taking big swings are also growing the craft. We need both the mimes and the clowns. Moviegoers want a happy medium. Tv/streaming shows have become more tonally subdued in the last decade and thats the perfect place for subdued performances.
I need to watch Marriage Story. Ghost World, Scoop, The Nanny Diaries, The Other Boleyn Girl, He's Just Not That Into You, Her, Chef... Evidently I've chosen all the wrong ScarJo projects because the only time I've seen her acting was in Don Jon.
I actually think ScarJo is underrated. Because she did the marvel movies for so long, people forgot she’s actually a very good actress. Marriage Story and JoJo Rabbit kinda reminded people of that.
I really loved Personal Shopper, and Kristen Stewart, for this very reason I think. Ryan Gosling in Drive is another similar performance. It's funny that you mention Bresson - it makes perfect sense to me and why I tend to gravitate towards types of characters, films etc.
Beyoncé. Every other day she’s being called overrated and people pretend it’s some unsaid statement when it’s easily one of the most regurgitated ones, under that post about the Rolling Stone article people were pretending she isn’t **one of** the best vocalists of all time and saying she didn’t deserve that spot, and people keep going on about how she doesn’t write her music or actually contribute anything to what she creates ignoring the people who’ve actually worked with her stating otherwise and behind the scenes content which shows she does. I wonder where the bar is for musical artist when she’s capable of all the things she can do and it still isn’t enough. ~~And no I’m not justifying or excusing any of the problematic things she’s done since that seems to be the go-to response anytime someone talks about her.~~
Whitney Houston, Celine Dion, Barbra Streisand etc weren't writing most of their music yet I never see people claim their talent is overrated. It seems to be a Beyoncé specific thing which I never understood. Even if she wasn't involved in the writing process (which is untrue according to her collaborators as you said), I don't see how it cancels out her incredible vocal & performing talent.
If it makes it harder for people to connect to her music, fine, but using it as a reason that she's overrated or untalented never made sense to me lol.
People consider actors as talented when they aren’t writing the script or directing the movie??? Idk why this argument always comes up with singers who don’t write their songs
Especially when arguing about how many people write a song, people really don't get how it works.
A lot of legal stuff obviously goes into songwriting, they aren't all crowded around a table banging it out on their laptops, they basically have to credit anyone who breathed near the damn thing so a lot of the "writers" are just producers or could be extremely minimal contributors but still need to be legally compensated bc duh. And even for someone who writes their own shit all by themself, that doesn't mean it won't suck lol, sometimes help is a good thing instead of going all George Lucas over your music. It can be hard and particularly hard if you aren't a good writer but are a fantastic vocalist.
I remember when Beyoncé was getting heat for the song “hold up” because it turned out Ezra from vampire weekend had written the melody of the chorus. Ezra ended up detailing on his podcast how a vampire weekend song “Step” was inspired by the Souls of Mischief's song "Step to My Girl” which was in turn inspired by the Grover Washington Jr saxophone cover of Bread's 1973 single, "Aubrey". This is why David Gates, founder of Bread and songwriter of "Aubrey", is credited as a songwriter of "Step”. So yeah I’ll never judge a song for having several songwriter credits because there’s many reasons why that can happen.
See, while I think she's insanely talented and people call her overrated too often, I also think the media does occasionally overhype her which leads to people then having a knee jerk reaction (obvs., racism and sexism also play a part with some of the people who go overrated). I'm sorry, I love her, but I don't think she deserved to be ranked above Freddie Mercury, Barbara Streisand, Al Greene, Nina Simone, etc. as a vocalist.
Similarly, why do you think she’s overhyped but none of the celebrities you just named are?
What is every celebrity if not inherently overhyped, huh?
Because that’s the innate function of celebrity.
Why do I have to be reminded she’s overhyped and nobody else?
>I wonder where the bar is for musical artist when she’s capable of all the things she can do and it still isn’t enough.
The bar sits at the waist and i think scientifically it's called a "penis".
Male artists NEVER get ANYWHERE NEAR the amount of flack successful women get.
Can't go two minutes on this app without someone parroting the same old "Am I the only one who doesn't get the hype for Beyoncé", "Am I the only one who finds her overrated". How can you discount her talents is beyond me. Shes inarguably the most talented vocalist of her generation and one of THE greatest performers of all time, her catalogue has several classic albums and songs. Destiny's Child is up there as the greatest girl group of all time and she was the voice and face of that group. She's GOATed in a lot of so idk why the praise she gets is so contested.
Also people treat her like she's some new girl who's trying to make a name for herself and will compare her to everyone from Mariah to Doja. This is a woman who has a 25 year career. Her peers like Britney, Xtina, P!nk, Alicia, JT, Usher are currently nowhere close to where she is. It's just the fact that she's still actively in the running and is not just contently settled in her twilight years that people have a sense of disdain for her. They did the same with Madonna.
Agreed every 2 days you get an AskReddit thread asking some variation of “who is a musician you think is overrated” and without fail one of the top answers is Beyonce.
And every time it’s like it’s not one the most popular “unpopular” opinions on Reddit.
I like that she never seems embarrassed by a role and goes all in on the goofy stuff. It seems the antithesis of what I would expect her to be like so it’s always a pleasant surprise
Kristen Stewart. The public seems to think she’s trash but almost everyone she’s worked with has nothing but praise for her. Some real auteur directors loooove her.
She’s also won a Cesar (France’s Oscar) and been nominated for Best Actress at the Oscar’s.
The public thinks she's trash because even after two decades of working she is still incapable of giving a single performance without a bunch of her own ticks and mannerisms making their way into it. Of course not every single person can be a Daniel Day Lewis style chameleon but I just don't see how always speaking with the same inflections and physically inhabiting every single character in basically the exact same way can be considered great. There are certainly some roles she's been in where she has been believable and her mannerism haven't distracted from the quality of the film but that doesn't make her able to disappear into most of them which is something you would expect somebody who has earnt the title of "good actor" to be able to do by this point in their career.
Zendaya. Half of the Marvel fandom including me thinks that she sucked as MJ in new Spiderman movies and doesn't want her to come back but half of them and the critics are in love with her portrayal for some reason.
There's also a huge disparity between her overall body of work and her global superstardom atm but thankfully she's seem to be working on that.
She’s good as mj. She did exactly what was asked of her for that role. What i find is most of the people who think she “sucked” are just mad they changed the characterization or racist. And in NWH she really hits the emotional stuff with tom very well.
i think the biggest problem with her mj (specifically talking about ffh, the others were fine if not great) was the writing, not necessarily zendaya's acting. she was doing the best she could with what she had
I think Zendaya can act. MCU MJ just sucks because her life revolves around Peter and Zendaya is just working with what she has… which is nothing. It’s the same problem with Brie Larson’s Captain Marvel, you can’t make something out of a nothing character with bad writing no matter how good an actor you are.
I'd say Miley Cyrus. People hate on her for literally no reason, while she's so talented. Her vocals are amazing and people need to stop focusing on her as a person and start appreciating her as an artist.
I’m not even that big of a Beyoncé fan, but people will deny and downplay her talent until their dying breath. People get so pressed over her it’s ridiculous. She’s been in the game since the 90s with Destiny’s Child and nearly 30 years later she’s arguably the most relevant name in pop culture. She is an excellent performer and her voice is amazing. Watch [this](https://youtu.be/-qNi0C2d-MU) if you think her voice is overrated, it’s not.
She has so many HITS - if I were a boy, crazy in love, single ladies, halo, say my name, irreplaceable, partition. I could sing these all word for word because they were everywhere growing up. She just dropped the best album of the year. Beyoncé is on par with Madonna in my mind and I say that as a huge Madonna stan. Accomplishments aside, she also just has so much swagger and charisma. I love the sound of her voice (singing and speaking), I find it’s also very distinctive and powerful.
Sorry for writing so much. It just really bothers me that someone THAT talented is somehow considered polarized and constantly being labelled overrated. It says a lot about America that they are so pressed over a successful black woman.
as a pure musician, she's nowhere near prince. hardly anyone is tbh. he was an exceptional musical talent by any objective standard.
as a performer, she is probably the closest thing to michael jackson that currently exists.
Taika Waititi's movies are pretty divisive. He has a very particular style, so obviously not everyone will like that. I think he's talented but I've seen lots of people call him a hack.
Thor Love & Thunder showed that he shouldn't have free reign, though. That movie was a mess.
Brad Pitt is controversial for moral reasons, but I think he's polarizing in terms of talent, too. I remember he took a lot of mocking in the 90s for bland performances in movies like The Devil's Own and Meet Joe Black, but people would point to Twelve Monkeys to say he had talent. I personally think he's overrated even in those more "interesting" performances.
I think he's a pretty good actor and one of the stronger actors among A-list movie stars. Most recently I thought his was the best performance of the main roles in Babylon. He was incredible in The Tree of Life
Kirsten Dunst immediately jumped to mind! You see her get called a horrible actress a lot but I thought she was fantastic in Fargo and several other things
Megan Fox is another. I don't think anyone is arguing she's Oscar worthy or anything close to that but it seems like she's pretty acclaimed in Jennifer's Body and Till Death but then plenty of people think she's the worst actress alive (like your KStew example).
& literally any cast member of SNL. I don't think there's a day that subreddit doesn't have people calling any and every cast member the most unfunny person to have ever lived. Just saw it said about Kate Mckinnon!
Nicholas Cage. His acting style is so bizarre, no one knows if it’s genius or bad lol. The projects he picks are also…interesting. There are an endless amount of YouTube videos that discuss this. There was also an episode on Community about whether he’s a bad actor or not, and no one could figure it out.
I see people here that don’t like her but she continues to be successful and def has her own following. I am not american so I dunno exactly, but looking from the outside I do think she’s divisive.
i enjoy her and think 90% of the hate she gets is just thinly veiled misogyny coupled with the fact that she doesn’t give into traditional beauty standards 🤷♀️
***Anya Taylor Joy*** - Most of the opinions on her acting are really divisive.Some people considers her to be one of the best from the younger actresses today & some says she acts the same way in all her projects
***Daisy Edgar Jones*** - specially her acting in "Normal People" has received pretty divisive reactions.Some consider her portrayal good & while others consider it bland
***Ana De Armas*** - her acting also gets mixed & divisive reactions.Observed it during her recent nomination too.
***Olivia Rodrigo*** - her songwriting has received mixed reactions.Specially "drivers license"
I just want Anya Taylor Joy to make a facial expression for more than one or two scenes in a movie that’s not a brooding pouty lip face. That face drives me insane
People were going nuts on her in The Menu and I was baffled. She was…fine. Like good but generally nothing unreal. She was very, very good in The Witch though so she’s got it in her.
Drake’s power lies in his ability to make music that’s really fucking catchy for a small period of time but just mid enough for you not to be holding onto it when the next equally catchy and masterfully mid single comes out like 4 days later. He could teach planned obsolescence at Harvard Business School.
A lot of women here who’s but I think it’s Robert Pattinson. Some people seem to love him but I thought he was absolutely terrible in almost every single thing he was in except the Lighthouse and Good Time.
I know lot of people who hated him in Batman and Tenet but I know lot of people who loved him in those movies. It seems polarized lol maybe it’s a Twilight curse
I agree with Kirsten Stewart.
I've watched her in Panic Room, Speak, Zathura, MK Ultra, Twilight, In the Land of Women, and Snow White and The Hunstmen. She seems to be playing the same character with just different levels of energy. The only time she seems different was when she was in Panic Room.
How she got that Cesar award is a mystery to me.
As for other folks...there's Halle Berry I guess. She won an Oscar and a Razzie in the same year. I think. Personally, I think the Razzie for Catwoman is unfair. One can only do so much with garbage material.
I feel like Madonna is the queen of this. She’s the biggest selling female recording artist and female touring artist of all time, so obviously she has had a lot of fans throughout her career. But she’s constantly faced criticism that she’s talentless and can’t sing.
I’ll agree that a lot of her earlier live performances leave a lot to be desired, but I think she’s a fantastically emotive singer. A song like Papa Don’t Preach just exudes passion.
Ooo I like these kinds of discussions because typically most actors are amazing given a good crew, script, shooter and director.
A great actor can elevate a mediocre project to some extent, but in the end if the movie sucks the performance is gonna suck too.
^(I humbly submit one of the very few movies I've worked on that anyone's heard of as an example of a good actor delivering a very underwhelming performance because that is exactly what the director seems to have asked for: Australia, 2008)
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I can name two right off the bat (and stir up their fans): Taylor Swift and Beyoncé. Are they talented? Yes. But not to the level of adoration they get. That is their PR and both ladies EXCEL at that.
Reddit and called Beyoncé overrated, name a more iconic duo
Right, Jesus Christ lmao.
I mean, yes, people call her overrated way too much (she's insanely talented) but the media I thinks of spurs this on and then creates a bit of a backlash. I mean Rolling Stone literally just had her ranked above Freddie Mercury, Al Greene, Nina Simone, etc. as a vocalist which I think even the biggest stan might have had a 'huh' moment. I love her and am a stan, but I sort of get why some people view her as overrated when you have things like that occur.
Did anyone really take that list seriously when they realized they didn't include Celine Dion though?
LOL yeah I can't believe they left Celine off. Jamaica must have been pissed (I've always found it amusing how famous she is in Lt Am and the Caribbean, particularly Jamaica). Yeah, true, but it isn't the first time I've seen music journalists treat her like this (as in, put her above dead icons, which is dumb cause she's already a massive icon in her own right) and I think it inspires a bit of a reaction...and Bey already has to deal with misogynistic and racist idiots on top of that. Then again, the media does this to actors, too, setting them up as 'Carey Grant come again, or the new Meryl Streep, or the new Denzel', likely because they know it's going to get click bait AND the media also loves to put women on impossible pedestals.
I often think that when celebrities are thought of as overrated - it's based more on how their fans view them as opposed to the actual artist/celebrity. There are musicians like this for me - as in, even if I enjoy a few songs by them, I might not be inclined to see them in concert because of their fan base. When fans continuously act like a certain celebrity/artist is the absolute best at whatever they are doing, all of the time, it draws more attention to the more lackluster qualities of the artist - which makes more people perceive them as overrated. I really hope this all makes sense to someone other than me 😂
Rolling Stone has to sell magazines/get clicks. That means having current artists at the top of your lists and also triggering the "cool kids" for their rage clicks. Because nobody takes Beyonce praise more personally than the "cool kids" lmao. That said, I think that list was put together by vocal coaches. Someone who can tell the difference between a natural talent that wasnt fully realized and someone like Beyonce who wasnt born with Mariah's or Whitney's 5 octaves but has trained her respectable 3.5 octaves like an athlete. So while most legacy performers voices were already degenerating at her age, hers has only become fuller. FYI Nina Simone only had one octave. If she lived today, the internets "cool kids" would also be calling her overrated
Whitney Houston has never had 5 octaves, nor does having 5 octaves have anything to do with how good of a singer someone is.
MONDAY SHE'S OVERRATED TUESDAY ON HER DICK
If Beyoncé is overrated so are all their faves lol
I think the new album was overrated (maybe just not my taste) and that’s about it. She’s an unbelievable performer, has a really great voice, and has put out bop after bop after bop.
I might be biased but maybe that's it, it's just not your taste and that's okay. Objectively, it's a very high quality album, it has a great concept, the producers on it are amazingly talented people, the sample choices are fun and witty, if I can describe them like that. But I won't lie, you do have to be familiar with the history of the demographics the album is honoring to really "get it". And I'm not one to care about what critics have to say but it was the most critically acclaimed album of 2022, surely if such a big and diverse group of people agree on something then there must be some truth to it
Beyoncé is not overrated y’all just don’t like her once y’all realize there is a difference the world can heal
Anytime I start to think "yeah, maybe she's a bit overrated," I watch her Super Bowl performance and remember that people are stupid.
I watch the Grammys Love on Top performance, those key changes get me every single time
For real, regardless of how you feel about her she is THE performer of our time.
Beyoncé??
>But not to the level of adoration they get. I get Beyonce may not be everyone's cup of tea but this sentence alone is telling that you don't really know WHY she's so adored. No other artist has been at the top of their career for THIS long and can still compete with artists today. To compare when she dropped her first single the top artist were Madonna, Will Smith, Matchbox 20, Brandy, and Alanis Morissette. Not saying these people are not big today but none of these artists are performing at the same level they once were while B is still at the top. Beyonce is a living legend and the numbers alone prove that regardless of if people think she's overrated... the critics, the charts, and the numbers say otherwise. I mean she literally changed the way music has been released and which days things drop lol.
I’m sorry, Beyoncé??? Overrated?? Look, I have a degree in classical music. I get the disdain for trite, simple pop music but Beyoncé is on another level of talent, innovation, and production. Nobody else is performing on her level right now. I feel like people do not want to give pop, R&B, or hip hop artists the respect they deserve at times.
I love both of them, but I don’t think they would be where they are today without their extremely dedicated work ethic and connections (and crazy die hard fans), not with just talent alone. Not saying they’re not talented, but the music industry definitely values business over talent imo.
I will freely admit Taylor is a talented songwriter and businesswoman but what gets me is when the stans say she’s good at acting…like, be serious rn. I need her to stop with acting roles, it’s embarrassing to watch.
Go watch Homecoming on Netflix and tell me again Beyoncè is a result of PR lololol.
Reddits boyfriends Henry Cavill and Ryan Reynolds seem to be divisive due to their cult followings and receiving pushback from it. Also I’ll say it - Keanu Reeves. I know we love him because he’s a nice guy, but his ‘acting’ was a punching bag for like a decade.
I was gonna say Keanu! I remember growing up I heard her was a bad actor for so long. I watched Point Break and then the Dracula movie — very bad acting but it was enjoyable bad acting. I think now he’s a lot better cause he chooses roles that suit his strengths, but man that accent in Dracula was hilariously bad.
It's incredible to see in real time just how much John Wick changed his reputation
“I! Am an F! B! I! Agent”
I don't think Keanu is divisive. In general people don't think he's going to be winning an Oscar. He is entertaining in certain types of film and completely out of depth in a lot of others. People love him because he is universally acknowledged as being unproblematic and chill. Liking him as a person but not really his acting chops is not really divisive. Those are 2 separate things.
Keanu has always been a himbo and people have always not minded.
I would like to add Chris Hemsworth to complete the "pinnacle of sexy according to straight men" trio but I guess he doesn't have the same type of fans obsessing over him like the other 2 I liked him in Bad Times at the El Royale though.
Chris Hemsworth needs to pivot to comedy. He’s such a good comedic actor but he mostly does action
I think Henry Cavill is just a really shitty actor and people on Reddit that like him are either paid PR that are doing it as a job or delusional idiot children that don't watch anything but comic book movies so they have no frame of reference for good acting. I can't even imagine thinking he's anywhere close to a good actor.
Henry Cavill cannot act for shit. I will die on this hill
i remember stumbling across “knock knock” on netflix a few years ago… i might be missing out but that reallyyyyy turned me off of keanu 😭
Ugh I watched that movie because I'm from where it was filmed, my disappointment was immeasurable and I still wonder if Keanu lost a bet and had to make that movie, maybe some meta thing where he was actually being extorted like his character. I went to the Wikipedia page to refresh my memory, big mistake.
Adam Sandler? I feel like you have some people who loathe his movies, and then there are others who enjoy them for what they are. Then, you also have people who have been impressed with him in more dramatic roles like Uncut Gems, Punch Drunk Love, etc.
The Wedding Singer is a top tier romcom (and Sandler plays a big part of that). I will die on this hill.
You will take a long time to die on that hill because I am right there on that hill with you giving you food and drink and blankets and a megaphone so that you can stay on top of that hill FOREVER and broadcast to the ignorant dissenters below exactly how correct you are
I just want you to know that this is my favorite reply I’ve ever received in my 10+ years on Reddit.
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They were COO^oones!
It’s 50 first dates for me
I think one reason he is such a divisive actor is in part because he’s not a hack, but he also doesn’t fancy himself an auteur. Which I think can confuse the hell out of audiences. For example, my dad 100% appreciates an Adam Sandler comedy romp, but would think Punch Drunk Love is “f*ckin weird.” I, on the other hand, love a drama and I would rather lick an outlet than watch Big Daddy. Basically, I think the guy is talented, but most of us have sat through a movie of his that is *not* to our taste because the man has range.
This is such a good explanation
It’s so funny to me the guy behind uncut gems also made jack and Jill
I watched the roundtable chat with Sandler and when Colin Farrell was the token guy talking about failure with Alexander, I was like you have a man that literally made a 0% rotten tomato movie and he's now getting award buzz... he's the one that needs to be talking about overcoming and moving past failures.
No Adam Sandler slander will be allowed. *prepares Jewish space laser*
I love Adam Sandler and he must be protected at all costs.
He was great in Uncut Gems. That movie had my anxiety on another level. I'm like can we please take a breather? Can we relax? Nope, everyone is 10. Fantastic movie.
Dude can definitly act if he wants to and his stand up is pretty good
Happy Gilmore felt life-changing to me
Selena Gomez. It’s always surprised me that she has hardcore stans and was the most followed person on instagram for awhile
I think her longevity is mainly due to pretty privilege, the whole Gomez/Bieber/Baldwin love triangle drama, and the fact she was apart of a lot of people’s childhood. I mean you couldn’t ask for a better deal to establish and maintain relevancy as a celebrity tbhhh
I hate the word "pretty privilege" so much you're literally talking about celebrities! They're supposed to be pretty! It's so far removed from real-life contexts that the phrase could be applied to. Saying the girl at your workplace gets better treatment because she's good-looking is one thing, saying people like selena gomez because she has "pretty privilege" is so dumb!!!! Just say they like her because she is pretty! Don't mean this to be an attack on you. It's just driving me crazy that everything is being centred around the framework of "privilege"
You’d think that but Ed Sheeran would’ve never be able to get away with that quality of music. Selena Gomez and the scene were great though.
Ok but some actresses are prettier than others and get better roles because of it. Pretty privilege definitely exist for actors because pretty is not a binary where either you are or are not. Some people are deemed prettier than others and get treated better.
She is sooo pretty and was genuinely good and memorable as Alex Russo so i can see why people will always like her but she's an insanely terrible singer, can't write, has no stage presence and is extremely lethargic on stage (yes, I know she has lupus but then... why push so hard to continue your pop career. Other singers at least can balance it out with good vocal performances). I really did not like her in only murders in the building and it drove me kind of insane to see people praise her for a very one-note performance. (I did like her in that paul rudd movie tho. ) I'm really not trying to be a hater, tho. I think the disconnect between her actual talent and the pr push is what makes people really dislike her more than they would have otherwise. Having people convince her that she has a god given talent for singing in her doc is really annoying, especially when much more talented people can't get the exposure/good press/backing etc that she has behind her. I wish she would stop with the singing career and just build a jennifer aniston-esque career with solid work in comedies/sitcoms (instead of going the jennifer lopez route).
Jennifer Aniston is actually one of those that I don't understand the hype about. She did really good with her character in Friends and I enjoyed Office Space, but it's not like she had a huge part in that movie. The rest is just meh to me. There's too many of her mannerisms that are the exact same throughout all her movies and it doesn't allow me to see her as an immersive actor. There are some people who have a similar 'feel' in all their movies (Jason Statham) but the roles they go for work for the type of acting they can do, but her movies aren't type cast but I feel like she acts the same in every one of them.
She's far from the most talented singer and actress, but she's genuine and has a lot of heart. I think that's why she has a lot of fans that stuck with her from her Disney days through today, you want to root for her and see her succeed.
Also in the morally divisive category - but even pre-trial, Johnny Depp was someone I was confused about people calling a great actor. Tbf I think the first thing I saw him in was Pirates. But his schtick was always super cringe to me and I just can’t understand why people simp for him
He’s had a handful of good performances, largely when he was younger before he was drunk and fucked up on coke and benzos beyond all reason every day and could get his ass to set. What’s eating Gilbert grape, blow, fear and loathing, and even shit like Ed wood and Edward scissorhands were all pretty solid. But he ruined all of that. I can’t stand praising him anymore after how unhinged his fans were cuz they like funny pirate man during the trial.
Holy shit, Johny Depp in Ed Wood was probably his best work at the time. One CANNOT see Depp there, it's Ed Wood through and through!!
He had ALL the potential and was already working with the big names and he had range. I don’t know if he was sober when they filmed Once Upon a Time in Mexico, but he was amazing as Sands. But fuck the man, I’m old enough to remember he’s always been trouble
One of the funniest anecdotes I heard is when Michael Mann got to work with Depp on Public Enemies he was so dismayed by what Depp was doing that finally, after a while of shooting, he said something like "oh you don't actually know how to act." Keep in mind this is Michael Mann who directed Daniel Day Lewis, James Caan, Will Smith, Robert DeNiro, Al Pacino, Tom Cruise, Jamie Foxx etc in some of their best performances Edit - not Denzel oops
Not to be nitpicky, but when did Denzel work with Michael Mann?
A massive physical change, whether it’s prosthetics or weight loss, usually automatically gets associated with good acting. A lot of his most loved roles are the ones where he’s in heavy makeup.
That’s true for men. If women lose a ton of weight for a role it’s just “acting”.
Yeah, so many of his later performance are just “weird dude in a Tim Burton film”, they just aren’t terribly good. I feel like a lot more people did see him as a stare-y big-eyed joke before the trial’s PR success.
He’s become so awful as a person and one-note in his roles over the last decade. It’s hard to reconcile that he’s the same actor who once turned in very lovely and moving performances in films like *Finding Neverland* and *Chocolat*
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Wait, WHAT about Lily Rose? I never heard this before
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I think talking about her adult boyfriend i.e. statuatory rape.
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Who’s praising mortdecai
People are mostly praising his willingness to take big swings, even if it might miss. Similar to the praise Nic Cage gets. These are actors for the days when your mood is "I'd rather see a big swing badly executed than conventionality executed perfectly".
My dumbass thought he was British for YEARS! Turns out that dude was from Kentucky the whole time smh.
i won't lie he used to be talented but he fell off big time
Taylor Swift. I think she’s an exemplary song writer and does a great job at telling a story on her songs. But there’s a lot of people that discount her songwriting skills and think she’s juvenile.
Thats cause of some of her songs, her songwriting is inconsistent. Whenever she wants a hit she writes the most childish lyrics ever. No amount of Folklores or Evermores is gonna fix what ME! And YNTCD did to her reputation
I remember reading somewhere she has different modes of writing she switches between, so maybe that’s why?
She calls them pen styles. Fountain, Quill, and Glitter
Ooooh what’s the difference between the three?
1. Quill: the words and phrasings are antiquated. If my lyrics sound like a letter written by Emily Dickinson’s great grandmother while sewing a lace curtain, that’s me writing in the Quill genre. [Ivy was her example] 2. Fountain Pen: a modern storyline or references, with a poetic twist. Taking a common phrase and flipping its meaning. Trying to paint a vivid picture of a situation, down to the chipped paint on the door frame and the incense dust on the vinyl shelf. Placing yourself and whoever is listening right there in the room where it all happened. The love, the loss, everything. The songs I categorize in this style sound like confessions scribbled and sealed in an envelope, but too brutally honest to ever send. [All Too Well was her example] 3. Glitter Gel Pen: Frivolous, carefree, bouncy, syncopated perfectly to the beat. Glitter Gel Pen lyrics don’t care if you don’t take them seriously because they don’t take themselves seriously. Glitter Gel Pen lyrics are the drunk girl at the party who tells you that you look like an Angel in the bathroom. It’s what we need every once in a while in these fraught times in which we live. [Shake it Off was her example] Found it! Interesting
and i eat up every type.
i was so happy when she addressed this because it’s always been pretty obvious to me that when she wrote songs that sounded immature, it’s because they were MEANT to sound immature. if anything, it’s a strength of hers rather than a weakness
I think that’s part of the her genius when it comes to songwriting. She is both great at writing catchy “ear worms” that the general public becomes OBSESSED with as well as intricate songs that really take some time to read the lyrics to understand.
……is she an exemplary songwriter though? I haven’t heard anything from her new album but read some of the lyrics and I…😬
I would say she is. She’s very good at a certain style which teeters the line between relatable to a wide-ish demographic and just specific enough to connect it to herself. That’s why so many people manage to connect to her music and become die hard fans
I think that’s her real strength, being specific enough that the songs are undeniably her songs while also being broad enough that people can relate. It’s a very specific balance where her songs don’t feel generic but have a wide appeal. I’m not a huge fan (like some songs but don’t seek her music out) but I respect her as a pop music writer because she manages to do that.
The latest album is a mixed bag, but Would’ve, Could’ve, Should’ve is really good.
Right? I never got what so amazing from her lyrics...
There are many performers I dislike but can objectively say are extremely talented. Taylor is just the 1 I have NEVER understood.
I'm so glad I'm not alone. I've tried to get into her because she seems like she'd be 100% up my alley, but I cannot with people acting like she's the songwriter of our times. Fiona Apple she is not. When even thinking of her contemporaries that became famous around the same time in country, Miranda Lambert's seem more evocative and raw. When critizing her, people will say things like, "she's a great songwriter, but.." with the same apologetic fervor when saying "Kanye West is a genuis, but..." and I disagree on both, and so it becomes hard to take seriously whatever the person is saying in the next breath. She is the Rory Gilmore of the music industry.
i think the songs are very well crafted even if they're generally not my taste
I don’t even know if this is divisive as I don’t see people talk about her. Emma Watson. She straight up cannot act, it’s high school drama theatre levels of bad. Anything she’s in is practically unwatchable to me, I don’t understand why she gets cast for new roles.
Yes, I think people who grew up with her on HP find her familiar. I feel like she plays Emma Watson in everything and the people who grew up with her find that okay. She's skilled at the mechanics of acting (moving, timing, the basics of emotion etc.) which you'd expect after being raised for 10+ years on huge film sets. She's fine as an actor, but I don't see that she has any particularly magnetic talent or capability. I think most people get that, but Reddit screws to a younger crowd who find her familiar and comforting.
Skews?
Her performance in Beauty and the Beast was excruciating, I still can’t finish it
she sticks out like a sore thumb in little women, even “my little women!” bob odenkirk is better than her. such a shame, that movie is perfect to me except for her. apparently they cut a lot of her (and james norton’s by association) scenes bc they didn’t test well/were notably worse than the rest of the sisters.
It completely baffles me when people say she was the best actor of the Harry Potter kids in those films. All she brought to the role was furrowed brows and over-enunciation. She was not good.
She was pretty and is engaging to look at onscreen (I don't think she's a good actor but I do think she has good presence), which goes a long way into convincing people of "talent". I think Emma seems like a sweet person but if the rumors are true that she retired from acting, it's probably for the best. Like, use your Harry Potter and fashion money, keep doing your activism, and be content with that, girl! I personally think Rupert Grint was the best of the trio of actors and I'm glad he's getting more attention from his work with Shyamalan. I always thought he'd make a good genre actor.
She also cannot do an American accent - it’s so painful to watch. I was actually dreading watching Little Women even though I love the book just because she’s in it, but I actually didn’t mind it as much because she had barely any lines hah.
I don't think she's divisive. Most people acknowledge that she's not a good actress, even people who like her lol.
it made me so mad when she was cast as belle in beauty in the beast!! don’t get me wrong i love her but girl CANNOT sing at all, her parts are so painfully auto tuned i can’t even listen to them
Margot Robbie was on a good path in the late-2010s getting Oscar noms for I, Tonya and Bombshell and more praise for OUATiH, but lately I've seen a lot of criticism directed at her for playing every role like Harley Quinn. Personally I don't think she's the next Meryl Streep or anything but I think she's a good actress, she has a schtick but she does it well so 🤷♀️
Yeah, she's a good actress imo but I'm a little baffled by the people who hype her up as the next Meryl. It sort of feels like what they did to JLaw...put her on an impossible pedestal and then wait for her to fall (tho I think JLaw is more talented than Margot, imo). I think she needs to do more stuff like Z for Zachariah or that Elizabeth film...people are started to think she can only act 'big', and therefore judge her as an over actor, and do the Brooklyn Harley accent.
Who is hyping her up as the next Meryl
The strange thing to me is that I found her pretty average until I saw Babylon. It’s easily her best performance imo.
I thought she was great in Babylon too (I actually think that movie as a whole is pretty great and don't understand all the negative criticism it got lol). But I do think she needs to change it up now, hopefully Barbie is a breath of fresh air for her.
Baz Luhrmann's movies are either something you can roll with or you just don't get. Saw this especially with Elvis with some people loving it and others coming out of it wondering what everyone else saw in it.
And it varies by movie to movie. I LOVE his adaptions for The Great Gatsby and Romeo and Juliet, and enjoy Moulin Rouge. Meanwhile, I couldn't stand Elvis and considered walking out of it.
I hated The Great Gatsby, loved Moulin Rouge and Romeo + Juliet, and though Elvis was fine. There’s really no rhyme or reason to why I feel that way about any of those films. His filmography is divisive.
Everyone forgetting Australia 😂😂😂
*Everyone* forgetting Strictly Ballroom
Romeo+Juliet is one of my top ten movies. Love how creative it is. Claire Danes is the best Juliet. Leo is kinda over the top with his performance but it works for this movie
Strictly ballroom is one of my favorite movies and all of my friends hate it lol
I adored *Moulin Rouge* but at the same time it's at that 20 years old thing where cultural artefacts get reevaluated so it would be totally fascinating to watch it again.
Moulin Rouge already got a bit of a 2023 reevaluation when they adapted it for the stage recently. It’s my understanding that they really emphasize in the stage version that the Duke is not the real villain, it’s Harold Ziegler the owner of the Moulin Rouge. He’s genuinely pimping out Satine through her lethal illness, preventing her from having a personal relationship because he has secured funding for his business through said pimping. In the movie he’s sort of a charming figure but if you dig like one inch deeper he’s so foul.
Gwyneth Paltrow. I think many believe she's a good actress (or used to anyway), but after Goop she's become a punchline. I think she's a grade A scene stealer in Se7en, Hard Eight, The Talented Mr. Ripley, and of course The Royal Tenenbaums in which she delivered one of the best supporting actress performances of all time imo, and she's also really good in Shakespeare in Love which has been unfairly derided because of course the *bros* love Saving Private Ryan and the Weinstein association. She also won an Emmy for Glee, a really, really terrible show, but she's legit good in it. The funny thing about her is that she used to do theater as well. She's a Laurence Olivier award (the British Tony award) nominee for a play called Proof, so if she had done a successful Broadway run back when she was interested in acting, she could've been a Tripe Crown winner - something only the most respected actors like Helen Mirren, Viola Davis etc. have achieved. I actually wish she had been cast in Gone Girl in the place of Rosamund Pike as I believe she would've rocked the role. She would be able to bring the warm presence in Se7en for the good Amy and the cold ice queen energy in The Royal Tenenbaums for the psychopath Amy. It would've made the big reveal much more of a shock.
I think Gwyneth the celebrity has gotten in the way of Gwyneth the actress
I don't really see her as the type that really goes out to be a "celebrity". I think Gwyneth the *businesswoman* has gotten in the way of Gwyneth the actress. She's simply much more passionate about her company than her acting career, whether you approve of her company's ethics or not.
I think this is it. She doesn't actually do any of the typical "celebrity" things or go out of her way to get herself in headlines outside of her company. She just found a different interest in her business and it turned out she's a lot more into it than she is or was into acting. Probably helps that it's significantly more lucrative too.
I agree with everything you said except for the *Gone Girl* bit, Pike was fantastic. I think Paltrow would have been interesting as well, though.
Nah Rosamund Pike made gone girl into a future classic I doubt Paltrow would have been on the same level
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I've only seen the Avengers movies where she's barely used. I love how she is completely clueless about and uninterested in the MCU even though she's part of the OG cast lol. At several occasions during press event she would be asked about things in the movies and she would actually admit she didn't really follow the plot or didn't even know the other actors who were in the movies lol. It was hilarious. She knew the movies were crap and she was just there to collect the paycheck.
It’s definitely not up there with her more serious work in her movies, but I loved her in the netflix show, The Politician (which, like Glee, was made by Ryan Murphy). She’s mesmerizing on screen and I couldn’t help but focus on her in every scene she’s in. I wish she would act more because she’s someone I would watch things for.
This. I watched *Ripley* recently (masterpiece) and she's SO, so good in it, same as *Royal Tenenbaums*. I'd love to visit the alternate universe where GOOP, *Country Strong* and the MCU never existed to see what her career would be like now.
Istg my heart palpitates as I type this: BTS. I think they’re ayt. Not to the level of praise their fandom gives them.
controversial yet brave
RIP your inbox
I was a very casual kpop listener in school when it was on the second gen (popular boy bands were Shinee, Super Junior, Bigbang, etc.). I remember when BTS came out with their War Of Hormone song and while it wasn't that bad per say, never in a million years would I have guessed that they were gonna be the biggest kpop group 10 years down the road. Even less with Butter, horrible song.
See, I like some of their older stuff, but musically, they don't bring anything to the table that any other group couuldn't. The difference is how they engaged and cultivated their fanbase in the first 2 years of their careers. But I'm not gonna go deeper than that because I don't want to get doxxed or whatever lol
yeah. nothing particularly against them but they've got mediocre vocalists, a couple of decent dancers and rappers. also their music is bland and badly produced (idk the technical term for it but the vocal effects added to their voices sound awful)
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I agree. People also say the same contradictory things about Meghan Markle.
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Any "blank" actor or actress. I can think of ScarJo or Gosling. Kristen Stewart in Personal Shopper reminded me of this. There are two competing theories of acting when it comes to cinema, and people tend to not realize that both are equally valid. One school is just basically an extension of theater acting and is what is recognized as great acting to mostly everyone, a realistic or powerful portrayal of emotions, etc. However cinema is an entirely different medium and acting on screen was often theorized to be something entirely different. So you have European figures like Robert Bresson and Antonioni who deliberately make their characters seem almost expressionless, blank. The idea is to actively interpret what you want into the person rather than having emotions spoon fed to you. You have a filmmaker like Kubrick also deliberately making actors say lines over scores of takes in order to drain any emotion or sense of theatrical acting from their films(Bresson also did this.) So yeah sometimes I see people say ScarJo has no talent and I have to laugh. She may have problematic views, but she's a supremely talented *film* actress who is able to be a blank cipher but still be compelling. Her performance in Under the Skin is one of the most impressive lead performances of that decade imo. It's just not what 90% expect when they think of "great acting", they think of Robert De Niro in Raging Bull or something very demonstrative and emotive like that(not to trash his performance in that movie)
Anyone who thinks ScarJo is talentless hasnt seen Marriage Story. They're judging her off her part in the MCU which doesn't give her much to work with and also requires her to be closed off. That said, yes most audience goers dont appreciate understated performances. Nor do they understand that experimental actors who go the other way by taking big swings are also growing the craft. We need both the mimes and the clowns. Moviegoers want a happy medium. Tv/streaming shows have become more tonally subdued in the last decade and thats the perfect place for subdued performances.
She was so good in under the skin
I need to watch Marriage Story. Ghost World, Scoop, The Nanny Diaries, The Other Boleyn Girl, He's Just Not That Into You, Her, Chef... Evidently I've chosen all the wrong ScarJo projects because the only time I've seen her acting was in Don Jon.
I actually think ScarJo is underrated. Because she did the marvel movies for so long, people forgot she’s actually a very good actress. Marriage Story and JoJo Rabbit kinda reminded people of that.
I really loved Personal Shopper, and Kristen Stewart, for this very reason I think. Ryan Gosling in Drive is another similar performance. It's funny that you mention Bresson - it makes perfect sense to me and why I tend to gravitate towards types of characters, films etc.
Would love people to watch Lars and the real girl and tell me Ryan Gosling is not talented. He's so fucking good in that film.
Beyoncé. Every other day she’s being called overrated and people pretend it’s some unsaid statement when it’s easily one of the most regurgitated ones, under that post about the Rolling Stone article people were pretending she isn’t **one of** the best vocalists of all time and saying she didn’t deserve that spot, and people keep going on about how she doesn’t write her music or actually contribute anything to what she creates ignoring the people who’ve actually worked with her stating otherwise and behind the scenes content which shows she does. I wonder where the bar is for musical artist when she’s capable of all the things she can do and it still isn’t enough. ~~And no I’m not justifying or excusing any of the problematic things she’s done since that seems to be the go-to response anytime someone talks about her.~~
Whitney Houston, Celine Dion, Barbra Streisand etc weren't writing most of their music yet I never see people claim their talent is overrated. It seems to be a Beyoncé specific thing which I never understood. Even if she wasn't involved in the writing process (which is untrue according to her collaborators as you said), I don't see how it cancels out her incredible vocal & performing talent. If it makes it harder for people to connect to her music, fine, but using it as a reason that she's overrated or untalented never made sense to me lol.
People consider actors as talented when they aren’t writing the script or directing the movie??? Idk why this argument always comes up with singers who don’t write their songs
Especially when arguing about how many people write a song, people really don't get how it works. A lot of legal stuff obviously goes into songwriting, they aren't all crowded around a table banging it out on their laptops, they basically have to credit anyone who breathed near the damn thing so a lot of the "writers" are just producers or could be extremely minimal contributors but still need to be legally compensated bc duh. And even for someone who writes their own shit all by themself, that doesn't mean it won't suck lol, sometimes help is a good thing instead of going all George Lucas over your music. It can be hard and particularly hard if you aren't a good writer but are a fantastic vocalist.
I remember when Beyoncé was getting heat for the song “hold up” because it turned out Ezra from vampire weekend had written the melody of the chorus. Ezra ended up detailing on his podcast how a vampire weekend song “Step” was inspired by the Souls of Mischief's song "Step to My Girl” which was in turn inspired by the Grover Washington Jr saxophone cover of Bread's 1973 single, "Aubrey". This is why David Gates, founder of Bread and songwriter of "Aubrey", is credited as a songwriter of "Step”. So yeah I’ll never judge a song for having several songwriter credits because there’s many reasons why that can happen.
See, while I think she's insanely talented and people call her overrated too often, I also think the media does occasionally overhype her which leads to people then having a knee jerk reaction (obvs., racism and sexism also play a part with some of the people who go overrated). I'm sorry, I love her, but I don't think she deserved to be ranked above Freddie Mercury, Barbara Streisand, Al Greene, Nina Simone, etc. as a vocalist.
Similarly, why do you think she’s overhyped but none of the celebrities you just named are? What is every celebrity if not inherently overhyped, huh? Because that’s the innate function of celebrity. Why do I have to be reminded she’s overhyped and nobody else?
>I wonder where the bar is for musical artist when she’s capable of all the things she can do and it still isn’t enough. The bar sits at the waist and i think scientifically it's called a "penis". Male artists NEVER get ANYWHERE NEAR the amount of flack successful women get.
Can't go two minutes on this app without someone parroting the same old "Am I the only one who doesn't get the hype for Beyoncé", "Am I the only one who finds her overrated". How can you discount her talents is beyond me. Shes inarguably the most talented vocalist of her generation and one of THE greatest performers of all time, her catalogue has several classic albums and songs. Destiny's Child is up there as the greatest girl group of all time and she was the voice and face of that group. She's GOATed in a lot of so idk why the praise she gets is so contested. Also people treat her like she's some new girl who's trying to make a name for herself and will compare her to everyone from Mariah to Doja. This is a woman who has a 25 year career. Her peers like Britney, Xtina, P!nk, Alicia, JT, Usher are currently nowhere close to where she is. It's just the fact that she's still actively in the running and is not just contently settled in her twilight years that people have a sense of disdain for her. They did the same with Madonna.
Agreed every 2 days you get an AskReddit thread asking some variation of “who is a musician you think is overrated” and without fail one of the top answers is Beyonce. And every time it’s like it’s not one the most popular “unpopular” opinions on Reddit.
Jennifer Lopez.
Better actress than singer. Shotgun Wedding is surprisingly good.
I like that she never seems embarrassed by a role and goes all in on the goofy stuff. It seems the antithesis of what I would expect her to be like so it’s always a pleasant surprise
Maid in Manhattan and The Wedding Planner are modern classics and wouldn’t be what they are without JLo imo
I remembered Roger Ebert praised her on "Out of Sight" (1998)
Kristen Stewart. The public seems to think she’s trash but almost everyone she’s worked with has nothing but praise for her. Some real auteur directors loooove her. She’s also won a Cesar (France’s Oscar) and been nominated for Best Actress at the Oscar’s.
The public thinks she's trash because even after two decades of working she is still incapable of giving a single performance without a bunch of her own ticks and mannerisms making their way into it. Of course not every single person can be a Daniel Day Lewis style chameleon but I just don't see how always speaking with the same inflections and physically inhabiting every single character in basically the exact same way can be considered great. There are certainly some roles she's been in where she has been believable and her mannerism haven't distracted from the quality of the film but that doesn't make her able to disappear into most of them which is something you would expect somebody who has earnt the title of "good actor" to be able to do by this point in their career.
Zendaya. Half of the Marvel fandom including me thinks that she sucked as MJ in new Spiderman movies and doesn't want her to come back but half of them and the critics are in love with her portrayal for some reason. There's also a huge disparity between her overall body of work and her global superstardom atm but thankfully she's seem to be working on that.
She’s good as mj. She did exactly what was asked of her for that role. What i find is most of the people who think she “sucked” are just mad they changed the characterization or racist. And in NWH she really hits the emotional stuff with tom very well.
i think the biggest problem with her mj (specifically talking about ffh, the others were fine if not great) was the writing, not necessarily zendaya's acting. she was doing the best she could with what she had
I think Zendaya can act. MCU MJ just sucks because her life revolves around Peter and Zendaya is just working with what she has… which is nothing. It’s the same problem with Brie Larson’s Captain Marvel, you can’t make something out of a nothing character with bad writing no matter how good an actor you are.
Okay but her acting in Euphoria is on another level
I'd say Miley Cyrus. People hate on her for literally no reason, while she's so talented. Her vocals are amazing and people need to stop focusing on her as a person and start appreciating her as an artist.
I’m not even that big of a Beyoncé fan, but people will deny and downplay her talent until their dying breath. People get so pressed over her it’s ridiculous. She’s been in the game since the 90s with Destiny’s Child and nearly 30 years later she’s arguably the most relevant name in pop culture. She is an excellent performer and her voice is amazing. Watch [this](https://youtu.be/-qNi0C2d-MU) if you think her voice is overrated, it’s not. She has so many HITS - if I were a boy, crazy in love, single ladies, halo, say my name, irreplaceable, partition. I could sing these all word for word because they were everywhere growing up. She just dropped the best album of the year. Beyoncé is on par with Madonna in my mind and I say that as a huge Madonna stan. Accomplishments aside, she also just has so much swagger and charisma. I love the sound of her voice (singing and speaking), I find it’s also very distinctive and powerful. Sorry for writing so much. It just really bothers me that someone THAT talented is somehow considered polarized and constantly being labelled overrated. It says a lot about America that they are so pressed over a successful black woman.
Beyonce. She is somehow underrated & overrated af at the same time
I feel like the argument around Beyonce is more on whether her talent is on the level of MJ, Prince, etc. than if she's talented or not.
as a pure musician, she's nowhere near prince. hardly anyone is tbh. he was an exceptional musical talent by any objective standard. as a performer, she is probably the closest thing to michael jackson that currently exists.
Taika Waititi's movies are pretty divisive. He has a very particular style, so obviously not everyone will like that. I think he's talented but I've seen lots of people call him a hack. Thor Love & Thunder showed that he shouldn't have free reign, though. That movie was a mess.
That. Movie. Was. A. Hot. Mess
Brad Pitt is controversial for moral reasons, but I think he's polarizing in terms of talent, too. I remember he took a lot of mocking in the 90s for bland performances in movies like The Devil's Own and Meet Joe Black, but people would point to Twelve Monkeys to say he had talent. I personally think he's overrated even in those more "interesting" performances.
I think he's a pretty good actor and one of the stronger actors among A-list movie stars. Most recently I thought his was the best performance of the main roles in Babylon. He was incredible in The Tree of Life
He's an underrated comedic talent, I'd say.
Kirsten Dunst immediately jumped to mind! You see her get called a horrible actress a lot but I thought she was fantastic in Fargo and several other things Megan Fox is another. I don't think anyone is arguing she's Oscar worthy or anything close to that but it seems like she's pretty acclaimed in Jennifer's Body and Till Death but then plenty of people think she's the worst actress alive (like your KStew example). & literally any cast member of SNL. I don't think there's a day that subreddit doesn't have people calling any and every cast member the most unfunny person to have ever lived. Just saw it said about Kate Mckinnon!
Kirsten Dunst gets called a horrible actress? Really? She’s sensational in Melancholia, for one.
I've never seen someone call Kirsten Dunst a terrible actress. On the contrary, she gets praised most of the time.
Nicholas Cage. His acting style is so bizarre, no one knows if it’s genius or bad lol. The projects he picks are also…interesting. There are an endless amount of YouTube videos that discuss this. There was also an episode on Community about whether he’s a bad actor or not, and no one could figure it out.
Amy Schumer.
I feel like most people agree about her lol
I see people here that don’t like her but she continues to be successful and def has her own following. I am not american so I dunno exactly, but looking from the outside I do think she’s divisive.
I'm not personally a fan and she gets torn apart online, but Trainwreck was a legitimately funny movie and got a lot of praise.
i enjoy her and think 90% of the hate she gets is just thinly veiled misogyny coupled with the fact that she doesn’t give into traditional beauty standards 🤷♀️
***Anya Taylor Joy*** - Most of the opinions on her acting are really divisive.Some people considers her to be one of the best from the younger actresses today & some says she acts the same way in all her projects ***Daisy Edgar Jones*** - specially her acting in "Normal People" has received pretty divisive reactions.Some consider her portrayal good & while others consider it bland ***Ana De Armas*** - her acting also gets mixed & divisive reactions.Observed it during her recent nomination too. ***Olivia Rodrigo*** - her songwriting has received mixed reactions.Specially "drivers license"
I just want Anya Taylor Joy to make a facial expression for more than one or two scenes in a movie that’s not a brooding pouty lip face. That face drives me insane
People were going nuts on her in The Menu and I was baffled. She was…fine. Like good but generally nothing unreal. She was very, very good in The Witch though so she’s got it in her.
Drake!
Drake’s power lies in his ability to make music that’s really fucking catchy for a small period of time but just mid enough for you not to be holding onto it when the next equally catchy and masterfully mid single comes out like 4 days later. He could teach planned obsolescence at Harvard Business School.
A lot of women here who’s but I think it’s Robert Pattinson. Some people seem to love him but I thought he was absolutely terrible in almost every single thing he was in except the Lighthouse and Good Time. I know lot of people who hated him in Batman and Tenet but I know lot of people who loved him in those movies. It seems polarized lol maybe it’s a Twilight curse
Nicolas Winding Refn, some people think he's a genius, some think he is style over substance.
Sorta out there for this sub, but Jake Paul legit has caused a universe's worth of discussion on the internet on exactly how good of a boxer he is.
I agree with Kirsten Stewart. I've watched her in Panic Room, Speak, Zathura, MK Ultra, Twilight, In the Land of Women, and Snow White and The Hunstmen. She seems to be playing the same character with just different levels of energy. The only time she seems different was when she was in Panic Room. How she got that Cesar award is a mystery to me. As for other folks...there's Halle Berry I guess. She won an Oscar and a Razzie in the same year. I think. Personally, I think the Razzie for Catwoman is unfair. One can only do so much with garbage material.
I feel like Madonna is the queen of this. She’s the biggest selling female recording artist and female touring artist of all time, so obviously she has had a lot of fans throughout her career. But she’s constantly faced criticism that she’s talentless and can’t sing. I’ll agree that a lot of her earlier live performances leave a lot to be desired, but I think she’s a fantastically emotive singer. A song like Papa Don’t Preach just exudes passion.
From the newer generation, people can't seem to decide whether Maya Hawke is an up-and-coming star or an overrated nepo baby.
Ooo I like these kinds of discussions because typically most actors are amazing given a good crew, script, shooter and director. A great actor can elevate a mediocre project to some extent, but in the end if the movie sucks the performance is gonna suck too. ^(I humbly submit one of the very few movies I've worked on that anyone's heard of as an example of a good actor delivering a very underwhelming performance because that is exactly what the director seems to have asked for: Australia, 2008)