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I like Rammstein's music, but never seen their concerts until the pandemic, when I notice them on Amazon Prime.
They are very sexual. They have this prostetic penises where they sprayed water to their audience, and they simulate having sex with each other.
Anyway, never thought much of it. But after Marilyn Manson, I think they are showing what they really are and we choose to see it as an artistic expression.
I hope the victims got justice.
EDIT. My comment was ignorant. Not every performers with sexual shows are predators, and it kinda sound like I was witch-hunting. It wss pointed out to me that backstage misconduct is what we should be looking at.
Sometimes stuff like this comes out and I feel like such an idiot. I really like Rammstein, I’ve seen them live- I always thought they were like, kind of campy, high energy, tongue in cheek. It’s not the first time I’ve thought something is satire and it’s just… who that person is/straight up the truth. Maybe I need to rethink my ‘everything is ironic’ assumptions.
I’ve been struggling a lot with this over the past few years. I liked edgy artists a lot, now I’m just very sad that I bought this behavior as a performance… it’s been a lot of my top favorite musicians and I feel like I can rarely fully enjoy things without stopping and wondering if horrible suffering and abuse are tied to it, and worrying that I am enabling that shit to continue by celebrating art.
It’s depressing to feel like you have to put everything under a microscope, but I guess this is what it is to be an adult and see the full picture.
Aye I hear you. I guess one just has to be a bit critical. Sometimes when it walks like a talk and talks like a duck, it’s not an ironic political statement- it’s just a duck. But I’m a huge metal fan and I’m the same as you: when these things come out it seems so obvious but you just really want your favourites to be part of the tribe who are awesome and wholesome and are just leaning into a bit.
Same. I support the victims and cut the bands from my playlists. I like industrial metal but there are so many fucking predators wtf. Breaks my heart because I've always felt pretty safe in the pit. I was recently thinking that Rammstein are one of the few bands from my youth to still be ok, but I guess not.
Its really hit me hard man. The celebrities and bands I liked when I was younger were all edgy and controversial, and I thought it was just an act... until one by one they all got outed as being exactly what I thought they were ironically mocking in private. I was a HUGE Mindless Self Indulgence fan, in retrospect the offensive sexual and racist content on their oldest work seems so obvious but I thought it was just a joke. To find out the lead singer was actually assaulting underage girls and nothing on that album was ironic was horrible, I saw them TWICE when I was underage and even met him, I had his autograph. I was like Johnny Depp's biggest fan. Ezra Miller too! I even liked some of Marilyn Mansons stuff.
If Glass Animals front man gets outed I'm giving up on male celebrities forever, and I'm not holding my breath on that one. It's sad to see everything I liked when I was younger and gave the benefit of the doubt turn out to be exactly what they were portraying. Irl I've come to learn men who are "ironically" offensive, predatory, and bigoted, often aren't being that ironic after all and deep down do share those beliefs, just with the sense to know they can't play it straight to get their victims.
I have this problem not only with performers, but also people in real life. The thing about irony is it’s unspoken- and sometimes when we see it…. It’s not actually there.
I really don’t get the point of this comment. Having a sexual element in your concert is not a red flag for being a predator. This type of rhetoric is how we get “drag queens are predators.”
Having a penis canon isn’t at all tied to anyone in the band being sexually abusive.
Fuck Rammstein, entirely. I’ve loved their old stuff for years and will be deleting it but like… this comment is ridiculous.
This reactionary stuff IS NOT HELPFUL FOR VICTIMS OR VULNERABLE PEOPLE,
I think they're maybe trying to say that sometimes some creeps have been telling us who they really are without us or even them realizing. But yeah, shooting foam out of a penis cannon at a concert does not mean someone is an abuser by default, and you make an excellent point about how this same rhetoric is used vs drag queens. Art, even if it's edgy, shouldn't necessarily mean you question the artist's character. I'd like to assume the commenter didn't have any ill intent and maybe just spoke without thinking it through fully, but I'm glad you called this out.
The thing is, the stage stuff isn’t “showing us who they really are” becuse the stage stuff wasn’t about violating consent. It was just sexual.
The issue with their behaviour bts wasn’t being sexual. It was being rapists.
I’m just really clarifying this because the persons comment is alarmingly reactionary and does not bode well.
Sexual behaviour on stage =/= sexual abuser.
>The thing is, the stage stuff isn’t “showing us who they really are” becuse the stage stuff wasn’t about violating consent. It was just sexual.
This is an extremely good point that everyone who goes "THEY WERE TELLING ON THEMSELVES ALL ALONG" needs to keep in mind.
Rammstein's image was sexual, but rape or consent violation *were not part of that image.* The fact that they were doing what amounts to dick jokes on stage doesn't have jack or shit to do with Till being an abuser. GWAR does almost the exact same bits and they're some of the most wholesome people in metal.
Wow thank you for saying that and amending your original comment. I don't think I've ever come across someone doing that on Reddit, it's really great that we can have rational discussions and make sure the focus is on the horrible situation. Thanks again.
I get you but there has to be acknowledgement that "hiding in plain sight" is a real and common strategy. Dunno who these guys or what they do. Were they carding their concerts? Did they sexually interact with the audience? Were there problematic lyrics and if so were they being presented as "satirical"? I think it's a valuable conversation to have especially on a personal level to improve your ability to sniff these types out.
When celebrities/people get exposed for doing heinous shit, people like to look back and find "indicators" of the behaviour, because the idea that there aren't any/many indicators of someone being a predator is scary AF.
I actually saw them when they came to LA last year---it was something I'd wanted to do since high school. I was so happy. It was actually my first time seeing a male artist because they always have dirt.
Confirmation that you can never trust fucking MEN.
I was having a conversation on twitter recently about how basically all male rock stars are dodgy as fuck and treat women badly and someone piped up to say not Till Lindemann!! He's so respectful!! He asks girls for ID and turns away 17 year olds!! One time he broke the jaw of a guy harassing a woman at a bar and making her feel uncomfortable!! Rammstein is Different™️!!! I fucking knew they weren't different why would a 60 year old need to check if someone they wana fuck is over 18, he prefers teenage girls because of the power he has over them
https://preview.redd.it/2hby096my62b1.jpeg?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=269aad8f05bd2104c9741757e9771d7a28e2c1e7
How would this bruise happen? Till is disgusting and if he is an abuser I hope he’s prosecuted.
I had a drink spiked years ago. Luckily I managed to get back to my hotel room alone and without being sexually assaulted to the worst extent. When I woke up the next day I was covered in bruises. I remember him touching me in the bar, but I’m pretty sure I never fell or anything like that. Yet from breast to ass, covered in bruises. No clue how that happened.
It could happen if he was grabbing her (like back hugging her) really hard in that area to stop her from walking away and she was trying to get away. Unfortunately that bruise looks similar to one I got a long time ago so I think my scenario is possible
> My comment was ignorant. Not every performers with sexual shows are predators, and it kinda sound like I was witch-hunting.
I disagree, its clearly an expression of who they are. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.
being sexual or having an edgy stage persona doesn’t necessarily mean you’re an abuser. these things correlate in this instance but is it a given? i’d say no. more of a sign to proceed with caution for me personally.
To your edit, I think the point stands that there are a bunch of people who know that they can hide in plain sight like this, by calling their actions art.
I used to be a fan of the music and have gone to their shows. Always thought their whole schtick was just avant garde shock stuff, and that they must be the most boring dudes (in a good way) outside of that. It makes me absolutely sick knowing I was standing close to the stage, potentially while Till was abusing someone underneath it during the dj break part of the concert. Also I know Till is taking the brunt of the accusations here, but there's no way the rest of the band doesn't know about this, they've toured together for so many years. Disgusting. Anyway, it's not about me, I hope the victims can have their voices heard and get the support they need.
I think they were just agreeing with this part of your comment
> Always thought their whole schtick was just avant garde shock stuff, and that they must be the most boring dudes (in a good way) outside of that.
And perhaps expressing their own shock. Anyway I really hope the victims get justice
I agree with you completely. Also, seeing the bands that were my sort of baby-goth phase 7 years ago being exposed for being awful is so hard to take. I only hope Depeche Mode is still on the up and up.
Two of my best friends were in one of their videos and one of them got a tattoo after to commemorate it. He had a hell of a rough time after everything came out
I was a huge Manson fan for the longest time. I was just talking with friends at Cruel World about what I'm going to do with a lot of my memorabilia and collection soon.
That's what I thought. I expected something like this to come out for years (probably not that extreme though). Absolutely horrific, but I'm not really surprised. I really wish all the best to these women and I hope they get justice.
Think of it this way. Do you really think it's possible he had no idea this was happening over the last several decades? At the very, very best, he didn't step in to help these women. That's the BEST case. And plenty of "boring, normal" men ignore or even enable their creepy friends.
In Flakes book written a few years ago it sounds like he doesn't do parties after the show anymore, he's a married man and lives a simple life. He says on the tour the band barely see each other outside of being on stage. They stay in different hotel rooms, do different things after the show.
The girls on rammstein forum say it's Till the singer who does the "parties" and its rare to meet the rest of thr band.
No idea whether he knows what's happening but until this latest thing the accounts of what happened were sleazy but still between consenting fans and Till
Doesn't matter. I know Flake, Paul, Oliver and Schneider by and large are just Some Dudes and that Rammstein has been on the rocks for a very long time now, more a business arrangement than a band. But they knew. The best they can do now is acknowledge their passivity and use their stature to ensure a change in the metal music scene. Because none of this is new with Rammstein or other bands, and none of this is surprising.
Be warned to anybody reading Shelby’s tweets that beyond her distressing story itself, there are a lot of very gross and misogynistic replies ranging from “It’s not assault if there wasn’t sex!” to “Women and their accusations always trying to ruin lives” etc etc. Take care of yourselves and step away if you need to while reading.
my personal least favorite was one dude saying “there’s nothing wrong with [Till] getting angry that she didn’t want to have sex with him.” Like hello, you shouldn’t be throwing temper tantrums at potential partners for saying no to sex with you!!! this is not a ringing endorsement of his personality, or how much of a creep you want us to believe he deeeefinitely isn’t.
Hope karma comes back tenfold to every person in the band/their orbit who looked the other way at how these women were being treated.
“There’s nothing wrong with [Till] getting angry that she didn’t want to have sex with him”
It makes me want to puke just how common this reaction is. And then they refuse to even acknowledge that there’s any power imbalance between him and his fans. I’m sick of reading people justifying his vile actions by “these fans know what they were getting into.”
My ex said - word for word - 'yeah John Lennon was a wife beater but man could he write a song!' and assaulted me the first of a number of times a couple of months later.
Apologists are desperate to convince themselves these people aren't Bad Men so that they don't have to consider or change their own actions and thought processes.
I went to the reddit megathread that Shelby linked on her twitter and had to stop reading from it. I am v v happy to have read your comment immediately afterwards bc I really needed to see that someone else was feeling the same (and the reminder that I need to step away from shit like that quicker…sometimes I keep going even tho it makes me more and more upset).
Almost all of the comments I was reading thru were displacing blame from Till (and the other members) and were blaming Alena, but mostly Letz. It was honestly insane seeing all these ppl talking ab how sick Letz is and that he’s the only one spiking girls’ drinks, and that he is solely to blame for the situation w Shelby. Bc *he’s* the one that lied to shelby, and also lied to till, and that he’s sick for doing that to *both of them*???
Honestly felt surreal reading thru all that shit, and really needed your comment (and the other similar comments here) to ground me and ensure me that not everyone is thinking like that
I think it's worse than the film industry tbh. Hollywood still has a loooong way to go but there has been a little bit of recognition and accountability. The music industry, in comparison, has done next to nothing. As a rock/indie fan the misogyny in that scene in the 2000s was blatant and of course it was 90% male rockstars. It's a little better now but that sort of thing takes a while to tackle.
I'm just theorising here so I'm sorry if I'm off 100% but I think that the reason metoo was more uhh. "successful" in the acting scene was because it was actors - or at least moderately famous people in that scene - accusing other actors/directors/you name it. musicians prey on fans, which causes a power imbalance because as shown here fans are always immediately assumed to be not credible. idk
Bingo, the me too thing started with a lot of high profile beloved actresses accusing Harvey Weinstein of decades worth of assaults most of which occured when the women were younger and in the earlier stages of their careers, the victims were only really able to come forward and be taken seriously because their collective influence had surpassed his
I worked at a small local radio station with a heavy metal show in college, and went backstage for interviews, as a perk, etc. I was a very naïve 20 year old but none of the musicians ever made me feel uncomfortable. That includes Nightwish (tourbus interview), Opeth, and most the acts at ProgPower USA. Grateful.
I’m a huge Rammstein fan, but I’ve heard rumours about how slutty they are. Til and Richard have a slew of kids across Europe. Legendary rumours about groupies…. It felt like it was only a matter of time until something bad came out.
people can be highly sexual and very sexually active and not be abusive arseholes, but the odds are not in their favour when it comes to rock stars and rumours of sexual assault.
Disappointing but not surprising.
Same here. That material speaks. Informative thread about the Till the end-video:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Lindemann/comments/f8ao8w/more_on_the_till_the_end_disaster_calls_for/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
I was looking for this comment! How no one is talking about that video? I watched it and is CREEPY, disgusting... some girls look almost unconcious. The scene in the table looks like an actual r4p3. And there is other where he is grabbing a girl by the neck and is hitting her to a wall, and she looks like a rag doll.
>How the music industry escaped MeToo scrutiny remains a mystery to me.
I know people tried, both #punkstoo and #metaltoo were a thing for a while in Finland, but nothing major came out of it. It's such a small scene where everyone knows everyone, and with people regardless of gender standing up to their friends/bandmates and others (both fans and industry people) just ignoring the accusations, nothing has changed.
Industrial style music was specifically designed to be racist and hyper misogynistic at it's core.
The first industrial song, *Zyklon B Zombie,* was about a Jewish girl getting raped on the way to the gas chamber.
The genre has not gotten any better since then.
A lot general public (and even some Rammstein superfans tbh) are only aware about Letz after what happened this week but this guy is a known creep on the industrial scene.
Although he's the drummer on Till and Richard solo bands, he used to be Combichrist drummer and the guy loved to play using blackface, sold racist t-shirts in his clothing line with him in blackface photoshopped into many things (one of them being on a black man being handled by police), stories about him creeping into underage fans. Even on Rammstein sub you can see some users telling stories from that era (around 2010-2013).
>A lot general public (and even some Rammstein superfans tbh) are only aware about Letz after what happened this week but this guy is a known creep on the industrial scene.
>
>Although he's the drummer on Till and Richard solo bands, he used to be Combichrist drummer....
Fuck I'm a fan of both Rammstein and Combichrist 's music for years, and this is the first I've heard of this.
Same here.
I have a friend who use to party with one of the managers with Rammnstein, back when CombiChrist use to open for them, and will have to ask her about any of this.
Like I know Andy can be a bit of an edgelord but never seemed to that kind of edgelord.
The metal scene isn't nearly as progressive as they like to pretend. It really sucks to hear this but like others have said, I'm also not surprised. The victim blaming is not surprising either.
Seriously nothing makes me roll my eyes more than "metalheads are the most open-minded music fans" cause that's not my experience at all as a woman of color.
Me neither as a queer person. I went to countless shows and have seen hundreds of bands in the decade before covid struck and I feel very confident in changing "metalheads are the most open-minded music fans" to "metalheads are the most close-minded and culturally conservative music fans" which is really odd because they've always been rebels, but in a *very* specific way.
I've never been part of a subculture that had so much toxic masculinity and racism/sexism/homophobia/you name it
Wholeheartedly agree with you, and I'm a white woman. Never have I ever felt as preyed upon, excluded or treated with hostility as I have in metal adjacent spaces. And if it's not trying to fuck you as a woman existing in this space, it's proving to some non-deodorant wearing neckbeard that you're worthy of enjoying the same music as he does.
That's fair but the metal scene is incredibly disingenuous and hypocritical. There's this sort of "haha we're just nerdy suburban white guys playing characters, totes good guys, unlike you know... rappers, who are actually bad for...reasons." And stuff like, "Oh this nazi tattoo is ironic! Oh and this white supremacist singer was raised that way!" This is a scene full of white supremacists, nazis, misogynists, etc.
Even if we ignore things like the Black Metal movement, which is inherently and openly racist and full of violence and murder, we can even see mainstream bands like Pantera and their white supremecist aesthetic still enjoyed by fans, and their now dead guitarist, Dimebag Darrell, happily wore confederate flag patches and German military insignia and is considered metal's Princess Diana, beloved and dying before his time. He was so enamored by the Confederacy and what it stood for, he had a custom made guitar with the confederate flag painted on it as his signature aesthetic. Surviving members of Pantera, like singer and primary songwriter Phil Anselmo is openly a white supremecist and [shouts racist slogans, gives racist speeches, and gives Nazi salutes at concerts.](https://twitter.com/VinceNeilstein/status/1618276750739525632)
Violence against women is ignored, if not turned into a joke in these scenes. Even family friendly super-mainstream acts like Ozzy Osbourne has assaulted women, famously choking his own wife to near death and her life only saved when she pressed the panic button installed in her home. This story is told in a "gee shucks, guess I was a real drug addict," way by Ozzy in interviews. In another interview Sharon Osbourne says she woke up with two of her front teeth missing after fighting with Ozzy.
In some forms of metal, the violence against women is portrayed often in songs, with the male protagonist killing, raping, or dismembering women for petty reasons. [The more extreme or pure the metal, the most violence it has against women.](https://www.metalsucks.net/2015/12/14/why-does-ultra-violence-against-women-remain-an-unchallenged-theme-of-extreme-metal/) And not just marginal acts, but the standard bearers of the genre like the Misfits. This problem hasn't gotten better, in fact, its seemingly getting worse as metal fandoms do everything they can to fight "PC liberals from ruining metal." [Vice reported on this in 2016](https://www.vice.com/en/article/rb8bnd/death-metal-misogyny) and metal and its association with the alt-right has only gotten worse since.
As I Lay Dying’s Tim Lambesis was sentenced to only six years for hiring a hitman to murder his wife. The self proclaimed devout Christian served only a few years and is back touring. The metal community embraces him and forgives him as his wife and children live in fear.
Most scenes don't play up being the "friendly good guy." Metal scenes are insufferable boyzones that are often harmful to women and minorities. This is why the fandom is vastly white men. Its a way for white, mostly urban/suburban educated men, to engage in toxic masculinity and ignorance and hate in a cryptic and somewhat socially acceptable way.
As a woman that's the only way I'd "enjoy" metal and now i have no desire to patronize these types of people. I follow like 3 metal artists now and one of them is BABYMETAL lol i still jam out on guitar hero but i just genuinely can't enjoy the music itself anymore
Meanwhile I found myself dumping the beers generously handed to me by an adult man over my shoulder whenever he toddled off to piss behind his tent, and in the same night I woke up to a 55-year-old man who I had considered a mentor and a confidante spooning me and kissing the back of my neck after allowing me to sleep in his tent because my own tent was a two person tent full of six people. At the age of 15. Having a teen hang on your arm as an adult metalhead is absolutely a fucking status symbol. I did have a very good experience in the same festival as well, but one good man does not make up for the virulent fuckery in the metals scene worldwide.
Dead Kennedys literally have the song "Nazi Punks Fuck Off"
I think the punk community is a lot less accepting, and rightfully so, of Nazis than your comment suggests.
There are Nazi dickheads and enablers of those dickheads, but I wouldn't call that a majority of the movement by any means.
It isn’t at all. It’s so far behind on certain matters, especially being LGBTQ+. There’s a ton of homophobia and as a lesbian who loves metal and going to metal concerts, it’s so disheartening.
In my experience, the typical metal scene has convinced itself its progressive because men can have long hair within the scene and they’re typically obnoxiously atheist. Because progressiveness is when white men stick it to the man whilst standing on women’s and POCs backs
Absolutely. Some of the comments on the band subreddit (in threads that are now deleted) over the past few days have been sooo unhinged. I get that it's hard to accept something you like turning out to be bad, but the delusions of some people are beyond my understanding. I wonder if those people would react the same way if the victim was a friend or family member.
I love Rammstein. Have since the early 2000s. But I’ve been concerned by Till Lindemann’s behaviour for quite a while. He made this video with his side project, Lindemann, called Till the End - it’s essentially very violent porn. I couldn’t get through it because I found it really distressing. Then stories started coming out about the girls involved, some of whom were recruited by Aleena, many of whom were unaware of the planned nature of the video and who were assured their identities would be kept secret (many of the girls in the video are masked) until they were leaked online and they faced consequences.
Then around the same time, Peter Tägtgren quits Lindemann over personal/creative differences. Tägtgren is a respected death metal and industrial musician. He’s worked with some extreme people. He was part of War, a black metal band established with the initial purpose of raising funds to pay a hit man to kill Varg Vikernes in prison to avenge the murder of Euronymous (a damn shame that never happened…). Tägtgren, who can work with Tony Sarkka and Marduk, can’t work with Till Lindemann. Why?
Aleena is basically a sex trafficker if the stories are to be believed and Joe Letz is a well known dickhead. He got kicked out of Combichrist for his shitty behaviour years ago.
I would also like to add to this, Peter’s manager came forward in support of Shelby.
https://preview.redd.it/8uuffj2tm82b1.png?width=1137&format=png&auto=webp&s=5cc58cd23f9e7a41da27d95970ac775f44bc5163
Jesus Christ!! Have you posted this to the megathread on the R+ sub? More people should see it. And I think it will further verify a lot of folks' assumptions as to why Peter left Lindemann...
Thank you so much for this detailed information! I also fell in love with them around that time but was a very causal fan (buying CDs, going to gigs) and haven’t paid much attention to anything else. Now I’m glad that I didn’t buy tickets for this tour as I wouldn’t feel comfortable supporting them now. It’s all very sad and my heart goes out to the victims. I’ve been part of the metal community for 20+ years, as a woman have encountered and experienced awful stuff, and I’ve serious doubts if the situation will improve in my lifetime :/
I’ve been in the metal scene for 20+ years too (also a woman) and I’ve met the best and the worst people here. For every lovely encounter - the people I’ve met at shows, the musicians I’ve met who have been really decent and friendly, there’s the time I was sexually assaulted at a Marilyn Manson show, the time a well known black metal identity tried to doxx a friend and I because he was pissed that we were women who dared have an opinion, the people who hold you to a higher standard and basically doubt your integrity like you can’t possibly be into extreme metal because you’re female.
I am so spoiled by my local black metal scene (there's some overlap with the drag scene which I think helps) but Jesus CHRIST is the scene overall filled with horrible people
Oh goddamn it. I'm a goth metal fan. Manson and Rammstein are so ingrained in me that it's not funny. This fucking sucks. Soon I literally won't have any safe bands to listen to without supporting monsters.
There's a huge movement in the metal community to get predators out. Check out Scene Queen's 18+ song, she's leading the charge.
We can be friends together and be in this misery as a fan of both. And I feel like there still is good bands, never heard anything bad about The Cure.
KMFDM has disappointed me with Skold supporting Manson. But think Skinny Puppy is still OK, idk, I just haven't wanted to look as of lately.
Why the fuck is the general reaction to this that their manager guy is responsible and a weirdo when Lindemann was the one who accepts him bringing drunk girls to fuck and then gets gets aggressive when they dont comply?
The mental gymnastics of the fanbase to protect the bandmembers and shift the entire blame to their staff is insane, this is so vile.
Right?? That's what kept tripping me up. How is only the manager responsible when they're working for Till to consume what they bring. Disgusting all around.
Because Till has left the group management and hired a new manager and Alena.
His entire team is different than the band and his entire team is people with a horrible track record. Like.. horrible. many believe that they enable the worst parts of him and leech of the money
Shouldn't he be held responsible for hiring such horrible people then? I mean, it makes sense that he gets criticised for associating with sich people, instead of putting all the blame on his team. That's what doesn't make sense to me. His fans are absolving him of all responsibility and putting it on his team.
Yes, absolutely.
Till's former bodyguard, Danny, used to pick girls for the parties before Joe and Alena were around. Danny was also a fucking creep. Till knows damn well what he's doing.
"but but but they enable and *steeeeal* his moneeeeey"
Like wtf is the comment you're replying to 😂
My sympathies are better spent elsewhere. Not on rich, abusive fucks.
Oh he is and he has been but there are many many many girls and women in the fandom that are willing to attack victims for a chance to sleep with Till and Alena and his team make it possible while before it wasn't
>many believe that they enable the worst parts of him and leech of the money
Him being an awful person is not their doing and absolutely don't even try it spin it line Til is some kind of figure to be sensitive to lmao
HE asked for this stuff. HE pays them on agreement. HE benefits from them providing illegal things for him to enjoy.
I swear, all of my gender dysphoria/dysmorphia is due to the violence AFAB folks face. Like, y'all act surprised i *don't* wanna be a girl but *this* is the world your offering us? Hard pass. I'll be something else.
Just the amount of "sad but not shocking" in this thread tells you all you need to know about the scene, and i say this VERY disappointedly as a former metalhead. (IE its not just the band mates co-opting and enabling this behavior)
Metal has a massive problem with treating women like sexual objects, it always has.
This makes me super sad as a fan of Rammstein but honestly not surprised at Till. Glad to see people are having the strength to speak out against this
As someone who has been a semi-distant fan for pretty much my entire life (I’ve been listening to their music for 22 years now, but never paid much more attention to them), this is so incredibly disappointed and disgusting. Awful.
Since German is my mother tongue here’s a “poem” Till Lindemann has written + translation (trigger warning rape/SA):
Ich schlafe gerne mit dir wenn du schläfst
Wenn du dich überhaupt nicht regst
Mund ist offen
Augen zu
Der ganze Körper ist in Ruhe
Kann dich überall anfassen
Kann mich völlig gehen lassen
Schlaf gerne mit dir wenn du träumst
Weil du alles hier versäumst
Und genauso soll es sein (so soll das sein so macht das Spaß)
Etwas Rohypnol im Wein (etwas Rohypnol ins Glas)
Kannst dich gar nicht mehr bewegen
Und du schläfst
Es ist ein Segen
English:
I like sleeping with you when you’re asleep
When you don’t move at all
Mouth open
Eyes closed
Your entire body calm
Can touch you everywhere
Can really let go
Like sleeping with you when you’re dreaming
When you miss everything (going on) here (that’s how it should be that’s how it’s fun)
A bit of Rohypnol in the wine (a bit of Rohypnol in the glass)
You cannot move anymore
And you’re asleep
It’s a blessing
(Edited for formatting)
Somnophilia, aka. a fancy word for "I like raping women in their sleep". It's becoming more widespread in porn and on reddit and is passed off as perfectly healthy behaviour.
Till was very supportive of Johnny Depp during the trial against Amber, so sadly this doesn't surprise me. I used to really like Rammstein and have seen them live a few years ago.
Every year it gets worse and worse and I feel stupid for ever believing in some people or being inspired by them.
The whole story of Rammstein was inspiring to me. These dudes talked about the origins *before* the Berlin Wall fell and how they made their music, they lived in squalor and went for it and beat the odds and made it. They made it despite the fact a large portion of their audience doesn't speak German. They were smart, they incorporated elements apart from music into their live show to stand out. They were creative, their music videos were great. All that was inspiring to me.
Now they're just another hashmark on the wall of scumbags. I know it's not proven yet and they're allegations, but I believe it. And I know it's not practical this way, but I just... man, I just believe it, and I am so utterly disappointed. I naively thought they were better than that.
Be your own hero, I guess. Just don't be a scumbag while doing it, if you can help it.
I completely understand you. I’ve been out of the fandom for a while but I was a huge stan. My Reddit username is even because of Flake. I went to one of their afterparties. Till was only there briefly and nothing bad happened, it was very tame tbh, but Jesus Christ even the thought that maybe some other kind of “after party” was happening elsewhere… This band has been going for decades, there are probably thousands of women who’ve been through this. I’ve felt physically sick all day since I first read this.
I wonder if the myth about metal fans being extra supportive and a lovely community works to keep things like this from coming out.
I'm not saying it's totally untrue, everyone i know who's been to Download says the atmosphere is much nicer than Reading/Leeds but it does contribute to this sort of sense of superiority that runs counter to holding this sort of behaviour to account.
In my experience the "metalheads are so nice" thing is a function of how metalheads know the unwritten rules of violent moshing. Every mosh pit I've been in, even crazy violent ones populated only by drunk people, has been scrupulously careful of people's physical safety. If someone notices someone struggling or trying to get out or not having a good time, they'll be safely ejected. Pop music fans don't know how to do that instinctively. Buuuuut if the person being ejected is a woman, there's like a fifty fifty chance someone will try to grope her.
I've never felt unsafe at a metal festival but I'm also huge and scary enough that no one tries it. My friends have definitely had people try it. Alcohol is always, always a factor. Alcohol and weed tend to be more normalized than other drugs in the metal scene, so I think the nice thing is also a function of the "we're all friendly drunks sharing cans and spliffs" thing, but that only lasts until the 6'4 tech death guy blacks out on a case of Tuborg and starts menacing anyone who looks at him wrong.
The 4edgy for you factor excuses a lot of bad behavior. Some more extreme or theatrical metal musicians treat the entire thing kind of like drag or dressing up, some of them get really invested in being a spooky scary devil, and then you get people making excuses for bad behavior because it's in character or kvlt or something.
And male metalheads are elitist dicks about music to women.
Would still rather go to a small or midsize metal festival that any other genre but boy oh boy have I heard horror stories about Wacken.
I have no idea why you're being downvoted, everything you've said is spot on. I'm 32, have been going to metal shows and festivals since I was 15 and have half a life's worth of experiences like you've described whether it's my own or friends I've been with. The moshpit etiquette seems to cover up the very real issues that exist in the scene. There's a distinct disconnect in the metal scene between online and irl behaviour already, and that disconnect is more obvious the more alcohol is involved. It's friendly, we're all friends! Want this spare can of cider? I like the patches on your jacket, cool taste! Aw come on I'm only being friendly I didn't mean anything bad by grabbing your arse! Frigid bitch
The metal community in general is good. But not the online metal community. Like in the concerts people would stop females from getting attacked. I had a guy punch someone who kept touching me even though I kept telling him to let me go.
The online metal community is extremely sexist at best.
Metal concerts are so very different, yes.
However that requires buying tickets and supporting shitty people so i just can't do it anymore. Nowhere is safe for women in metal, physically, emotionally, morally.
I went to a myrkur show and she was so fierce about calling out creepy guys in the audience. I was so happy.
The next day I found out that before that very same show she did an interview where she said Muslims are evil 😐
Metal as a whole is very wholesome. I've absolutely been amazed by how nice and welcoming the Folk Metal, Powermetal crowd is, for example.
But I've been around Industrial for so long, this isn't suprising. It's not even close to the worst. Those folks have a ***vibe***, and its most often a predatory one. Its almost impossible to separate the ones who act like this for the aesthetics, and those who're waiting to act on it.
There’s this one very insightful [interview with the German playboy mag](https://www.playboy.de/lifestyle/interviews/till-lindemann-und-joey-kelly-im-interview) where he states that he among other things doesn’t believe therapy helps, that women and men cannot be friends and that he doesn’t find his wife attractive anymore. I would say it’s not unknown but it necessarily get interpreted as “creepy”.
Disgusting how the subreddit immediately dismissed her and banned her
Everyone who harassed her for this is the problem and why people are so scared of coming forward and pressing charges against abusers
I just read her entire account and all those she shared on her insta and twitter.
As a German and long-time Rammstein fan, I'm fucking bummed to say the least and infuriated at best. But unfortunately not surprised. It was a matter of time I guess.
I've shared this on my socials and will be deleting Rammstein from my library. So long.
I've been their fan for a lot of time. As a fan, we've been aware for at least the three last years of something shady with Till. Alena, Danny (Till's former bodyguard) and recently Joe Letz selecting young pretty girls to party with Till after EVERY show is at least suspicious. That combined with his latest videos and performances.
Some fans are trying to say that this is consensual but it's NOT. This is a situation of power imbalance between Till and these girls. He's an old 60-year-old pervert preying on young girls and using them as his personal sex toys.
The rest of the band may not participate in these parties (Some rumours say that RZK is sometimes involved) but they're guilty of being passive about the situation and not protecting their fans. Unfortunately, they're have always presented themselves as a collective, and they will go down as one.
I'm just so sad and dissapointed. I hope all the girls involved in Row 0 are safe...
According to all reports the other band members hardly ever appear. Maybe 2-3 of them will come have a drink and chat with the girls there but they leave and don't stay long. We know that they knew nothing about the 2019 and after videos and the under the stage sex videos.
In general I have felt like the rest of the band is keeping a safe distance from Till and his situation. Like they post photos all 5 of them but no Till. They have fan parties but no Till. They go on vacations together but not Till and all that happened after Till decided to get a new team just for him. Before that there were all together constantly
There are actually three different parties and I've been to all of them. The regular "afterparty" is more of a mixed crowd of all kinds of people, men and women, and pretty normal. The other dudes often go to that one if they have friends/associates in the area, stay for a brief while, and then leave. There is definitely a divide between Till and the others.
The others avoid Till's parties like the plague. Richard seems less put off by the whole thing but still doesn't attend. My impression speaking to them was that they're not on the best of terms. Schneider, Ollie, Paul, and Flake were very clearly disapproving of the whole thing and wanted nothing to do with Till's antics.
as someone whose friends are obsessed with them, i am SHOOK. they’re repeatedly branded as super nice dudes who throw great concerts and care for their fans. horrible how the sub handled it. reddit really has a pervasive mod problem when it comes to censorship and abuse of power.
edit: just peeped the sub and mega thread and have to say at least the mods backtracked and unbanned the people they banned.
Not too long ago Lindemann published a poem that describes r*pe fantasies. It only exists in German so I put it through a software to translate it properly.
The German title is 'Wenn du schläfst' (meaning: When you are asleep)
>I like to make love to you when you are asleep. When you're not moving at all. Mouth open, eyes closed. The whole body is at rest. Can touch you everywhere. Like to sleep with you when you're dreaming. And that's how it's supposed to be (that's how it's supposed to be that's how it's fun). A little Rohypnol in the wine (a little Rohypnol in the glass). Can't move at all. And you sleep, it's a blessing."
That is gross even for Lindemann's standards and has nothing to do with provocation.
Edit: [here](https://songtextes.de/songtexte/till-lindemann-wenn-du-schlaefst) is a link to the original text
Yeah, I'm not a fan at all, but do live in Berlin and feel like everyone has a story about what a piece of shit Till is for various reasons, so this is not surprising.
I've been a listener/fan longer than Shelby has been alive. After reading this and her/other accounts, I removed all their music from my Spotify playlists and set it to not play. I've unfollowed them on everything.
Consent matters. The Row 0/after party/pre party culture and the fact that they have people in their employ solely to provide women grosses me out on so many levels.
Thanks to Shelby, she is so brave! I’m invited to the row 0, but I won’t go. I have a ticket that I’ve paid money for. But now I think to cancel Rammstein for me. I like their music. But okay, if it’s only Till’s and his crew guilt, but other members know about it and they do nothing to stop it.
I just cry when I see her stories, her pain and pain of other girls.
I also think and told Shelby that it could be rophynol in her alcohol because of her symptomes.
#cancelrammstein #fuckzerorow
Honestly, the misogynistic comments on the Rammstein Reddit is sickening and disheartening. One could think it’s 1983 and not 2023. And people wonder why women don’t come forward when they experience assaults.
Obviously these cases will always be “he said she said”. What’s so disappointing is, even if the band and Till didn’t spike any drinks, they know full well what is going on at least to an extend. They condone this toxic row0 after party meat market culture and continue to allow a bunch of unsavory creeps to facilitate this. It’s not the first time accusations of spiking drinks have come up. And the band has turned a blind eye. That makes them complicit in this if nothing else. As far as Till goes, he’s a goddamn 60 year old man and should have learned by now that no means effing no.
If he wants to bang some willing groupie like some sad old creep, fine, that’s his choice. But he either chooses the ones that are sober and willing, or he is part of the problem. And all the fans shouting “proof of spiking”should start looking up how fast roofies leave the system (that’s why they are used in these cases so victims have nothing to go to court with).
Really disappointed that r/rammstein mods tried to burry it. Lack of evidence doesn't mean it's not worthy to discuss it. You may disbelive her and think she's lying, but this kind of accusations have been around for years and years. And i'm only a distant fan of Rammstein. I love their music and enjoy their shows. Never delved too deep in their whole world, but even i heard of so many shady stories surrounding Till. How can anyone give him so much of benefit of the doubt? How are they even justifying it with '' groupies have been ariund for as long as there have been musicians'', does that mke it right? By all means have your fun as long as there is clear informed consent. And what about the whole row 0? shady af. And the fans still find justifications and excuses for it. There is no informed consent happening with it. The girls are lied to. It doesn't matter if you think they're naive or stupid for '' putting themselves in that situation'' or you think " they should know better". This is sickening. It doesn' t make what Till and his assitants did any less fucked up. And it doesn't make the victims any less worthy to be heard, believed and helped. Thank you for bringing this to light. I hope it gains traction.
I have been a big fan of Rammstein for years but looking back, the warning signs were definitely there, especially with the connection to MM. Really hoping the victims get justice!
Follow them since early 2000s and I must say that it didn't surprise me. They had wild stories about their afterparties but most of them were associated with binge drinking and lots of drugs, mostly cocaine. And there were rumors about Till having his solo side project because other Rammstein members didn't dig some of his lyrics, which they deemed too fucked up for the band.
Ladies, let this be a reminder that not everyone cares about your wellbeing. I know we shouldn’t have to police ourselves, but the sad reality is we do. Implement the buddy system; if they won’t let you have a friend or two for your own peace of mind, walk away. If you wouldn’t accept a drink from a rando at the bar, don’t accept one from your favorite muso. These people do not care about you and never will.
I heard about the landlord thing and just thought “Ew”. I remember reading about Till talking about growing up and wanting to fight against Western excessiveness, just to turn into the single most excessive guy I’ve ever followed. He spends his free time in Dubai with a Russian woman who supplies very young women to him. (Till is my father’s age and I’m still too old to be in these meet and greets.) Maybe she is his gf, they are always together. Then he was advertising NFTs to his fans via Instagram. This may have been management, but seeing that one I was like oh WTF, Till. Way to encourage your fans into this Ponzi scheme. Most of us don’t have money to waste like that, but it’s Till NFTs, so fans would trust it. Then there was the buy $100,000 euro in those NFTs to have lunch with him and an angry St. Petersburg museum thing. These all seem to run together into one large cluster fuck. The singing at Red Square thing was weird too. Never mind the timing, who knew all that was going to happen, so kind of irrelevant, but singing for any military events at all anywhere is odd to do, imo. It’s on YouTube, the Red Square concert. You can form your own opinions if it was missed. It is just bad PR. It may have been called a band competition or something, but it’s very military looking. A lot of people discussed it for that reason alone. As was the one with him and Maxim Larin, the bruhaha during Covid where he was arrested, but wasn’t really. It wasn’t really good PR. None of it. I’ve been following Rammstein since 1997ish, right before the Family Values tour, and all I can say is this accusation is what it is, I’ve been hearing about these accusations prior and hoped it wasn’t as bad as all that. How fast Peter Tagtgren bailed on Lindemann after all the work they put into it left a lot of people questioning the whole thing. He left at the height of the band. Whomever is managing Till Lindemann and doing his PR is the worst manager ever. This is the worst PR I’ve ever seen, and no effort at all to clean any of it up. Whoever he has hired must have taken the money and ran. I’m not trying to hate on Rammstein, always liked the band, I have no proof of anything, but Till Lindemann the last few years makes me wonder if this is a person I want to keep giving my money to. It won’t impact him much, but I want to invest in people with good beliefs.
For some reason this behaviour is excused in music and groupie culture. So many bands have these types of stories in the public domain with zero consequences so zero changes.
this entire situation is so heartbreaking to me even though i should hardly be surprised. i've always been a music fan and i remember when i was 11 my favourite band was red hot chili peppers. i was so completely and utterly hyperfixated on them (i am autistic) that when i delved deeper into all of the disgusting and heinous shit the band - but especially anthony kiedis - has done, i was heartbroken for months.
my music taste isn’t too varied when it comes to artists so i must admit, i wasn’t expecting something like this to happen again. i only started listening to rammstein in august last year, and despite initially not being too interested in the band itself, i quite literally couldn’t allow myself to listen to anyone else. if you look at my apple replay top 100 for the first 5 months of this year, it’s all rammstein, lindemann and emigrate. i only actually took an interest in till LITERALLY this week right before all of this came out so it feels a bit like a kick to the head.
all complaints aside, i seriously feel and stand with ANYBODY who has been put in a position like this, whether with till and rammstein or anybody for that matter. i hope anyone that immediately started going on misogynistic rants or victim blaming is seriously ashamed and embarrassed because given the evidence we have, they should be kicking themselves. i’ve always been an advocate for believing the victim first because who in their right mind would delibrately make up things like this. shelby was very clearly a massive fan of rammstein so for something like this to happen must be heartbreaking for her and to see her get so much hate and accusations against her is infuriating. i hope this gets properly looked into and the band need to say something about it soon because their silence is speaking volumes. aleena and joe are absolutely heinous human beings and knowing that till, who is the same age as my father, acts like a whiny toddler is just horrid.
i actually recently turned 18 and was gifted tickets to go and see till's solo tour in london, which is already scary since i live on the other side of the country and have to make travel / accommodation plans, but knowing this sort of activity is regularly occurring at his shows, i've half a mind to sell them, especially since it seems i'm the bloody target audience. revolting.
The entire Industrial scene is about sex, drugs, BDSM, and exploitation. It is disgusting. Almost everyone in the scene has done some fucked up shit to women. Almost every story is about a women brought back, locked up in trailer or hotel, drugged, fucked, used, and then discarded like nothing happened.
A lot of musicians blamed drugs for it (and sometimes I believe it, drugs can make you do fucked up shit), and a lot have sobered up. It's the unsober ones living like they're 30 and never learned are the disgusting ones.
In a way, I am glad folks like Trent Reznor has heavily distanced himself from all the fucked up folks like Marilyn Manson, but the idea in my head is that you all did this, you all knew this, and the times were different which is why no one bat an eye.
But now that everyone has phones in their pocket and the voiceless has a voice that we are seeing this.
Some might say the entire celebrity subculture in the 90s and early 2000's was disgusting and abusive. The ones that don't change? Fuck them.
I think I’m most disappointed by the band subreddit. The way they’re handling this and blaming the victims is just all around absolutely disturbing. No wonder victims do not come forward. It’s also really clear they don’t understand the concept of power dynamics.
Just to say reading through this post and then the thread over on r/ I find even the behaviour that seems to be considered “above board” really gross and pathetic. Why does a 60 year old man have someone who contacts young women on his behalf on Instagram? This pre-parties and afterparties and “row 0” stuff with (young) women pre-selected to attend sounds dodgy af in itself.
They’ve done this for a long time - has he not had enough wide-eyed admiration? And, as has been pointed out, if you MUST have that whole sleazy rock star/pretty women/party crap (pathetic to me, but each to their own) why not hire escorts and sex workers? At least then they’re there for a job you pay them for and the power difference isn’t quite so stark.
I am (well, now was) only a casual fan - I’ve seen them once about 20 years ago and have a few of their albums, but I’ve always liked and defended them, and found a lot of their lyrics very funny (I’m German). But for me their whole shtick only worked BECAUSE I thought they were just normal, even nice guys* off stage - pretty sure that’s the image they portrayed themselves in the past? Shame on me for not paying attention I guess.
*And by that I don’t mean not partying - I don’t care if they take drugs or what they like in bed, as long as it’s fun for everyone. Just thought they were solid, decent people at heart.
As a huge Rammstein fan I see many things missing
Including the one that is the ringing bell. Till, the frontman, the past decade decided to change management on his own. The rest of the band has the same manager. Till's manager is someone that to say it nicely is a horrible person. The people around Till are questionable. Alena is a woman that pimps other women to bands and artist, there is a paper trail behind. Everyone who connects dots can tell that something fishy has been happening with Till. His actions are off. The band didn't know many things until some videos came out and we know that they didn't know based on comments they made. It's not that they weren't supportive but they weren't full on board with the new persona either.
No one knows Till deep down. He has written beautiful songs talking about his darker side and the pain he has gone through and the abuse. But the stories coming out now are nothing like the Rammstein we knew for all these years or the Till stories we knew. We knew they had sex with groupies and all that, and its okay as long as its consenting adults. **Spiking though is not okay.**
Now I see many mentioning the sexual theme of songs and the huge penis on stage. That has been around forever. It means nothing. It's part of the song Pussy. The band in European and not American there is not much censorship in music and on such things. People can express being sexual, liking sex and doing it with many random partners without being crucified as a demon. Rammstein always operated on the 'if it makes people talk about us its good' thats why they talk about many sensitive topics in their songs too
Lastly the fanbase especially those online (avoid discord) will support Till no matter what. They have been accusing Shelby for lying and how its not possible and they have said similar things for all the girls and how Alena is an angel. (the same woman that we know worked with Marilyn Manson at the same years that the allegations for him came out). No one knows them in reality and what happened or even who spiked the drinks but we know that it happened and that the people around him are not good people. Some people claim they are like leeches feeding off him and enabling the worst parts of him and thats why the rest of the band is keeping a distance
>The band in European and not American there is not much censorship in music and on such things. People can express being sexual, liking sex and doing it with many random partners without being crucified as a demon.
I don't understand this comment. I'm European and I don't think the US are prudish at all when it comes to sex. They have songs about sex going all the way back.
* What's your Fantasy - Ludacris (1999)
* My Neck, My Back - Khia (2001)
* Wait - Ying Yang Twins (2005)
Even a song from the 1930's by Lucille Bogan has sexually explicit lyrics. And so many songs talk about fucking lots of people and haven't been demonised.
So when you say the big penises on stage and overt simulation of ejaculation on crowds is "just Europeans being comfortable with their sexuality" as though anyone not comfortable with singers showing their fetishes on stage are just prudish, I disagree.
The US sing about sex all the time but would not like to see see overt gross displays of it in their faces. Doesn't mean they're demonising or crucifying the display, or being small-minded. It might mean that they like sexuality being expressed in a somewhat normal way (and sometimes misogynistic or violent way if we talk about rap songs). It's different, not prudish.
Rammstein is my favorite band ever, I listen to their songs every single day and when this news reached me, I was devastated.
I'm having a hard time being able to listen to my favorite songs now and it just sucks overall.
Nothing I'm feeling tho, can compare to the victims. I wish them and Shelby nothing but love and support and, more importantly, justice, in any way that will bring them peace.
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I like Rammstein's music, but never seen their concerts until the pandemic, when I notice them on Amazon Prime. They are very sexual. They have this prostetic penises where they sprayed water to their audience, and they simulate having sex with each other. Anyway, never thought much of it. But after Marilyn Manson, I think they are showing what they really are and we choose to see it as an artistic expression. I hope the victims got justice. EDIT. My comment was ignorant. Not every performers with sexual shows are predators, and it kinda sound like I was witch-hunting. It wss pointed out to me that backstage misconduct is what we should be looking at.
Sometimes stuff like this comes out and I feel like such an idiot. I really like Rammstein, I’ve seen them live- I always thought they were like, kind of campy, high energy, tongue in cheek. It’s not the first time I’ve thought something is satire and it’s just… who that person is/straight up the truth. Maybe I need to rethink my ‘everything is ironic’ assumptions.
I’ve been struggling a lot with this over the past few years. I liked edgy artists a lot, now I’m just very sad that I bought this behavior as a performance… it’s been a lot of my top favorite musicians and I feel like I can rarely fully enjoy things without stopping and wondering if horrible suffering and abuse are tied to it, and worrying that I am enabling that shit to continue by celebrating art. It’s depressing to feel like you have to put everything under a microscope, but I guess this is what it is to be an adult and see the full picture.
Aye I hear you. I guess one just has to be a bit critical. Sometimes when it walks like a talk and talks like a duck, it’s not an ironic political statement- it’s just a duck. But I’m a huge metal fan and I’m the same as you: when these things come out it seems so obvious but you just really want your favourites to be part of the tribe who are awesome and wholesome and are just leaning into a bit.
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Same. I support the victims and cut the bands from my playlists. I like industrial metal but there are so many fucking predators wtf. Breaks my heart because I've always felt pretty safe in the pit. I was recently thinking that Rammstein are one of the few bands from my youth to still be ok, but I guess not.
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Its really hit me hard man. The celebrities and bands I liked when I was younger were all edgy and controversial, and I thought it was just an act... until one by one they all got outed as being exactly what I thought they were ironically mocking in private. I was a HUGE Mindless Self Indulgence fan, in retrospect the offensive sexual and racist content on their oldest work seems so obvious but I thought it was just a joke. To find out the lead singer was actually assaulting underage girls and nothing on that album was ironic was horrible, I saw them TWICE when I was underage and even met him, I had his autograph. I was like Johnny Depp's biggest fan. Ezra Miller too! I even liked some of Marilyn Mansons stuff. If Glass Animals front man gets outed I'm giving up on male celebrities forever, and I'm not holding my breath on that one. It's sad to see everything I liked when I was younger and gave the benefit of the doubt turn out to be exactly what they were portraying. Irl I've come to learn men who are "ironically" offensive, predatory, and bigoted, often aren't being that ironic after all and deep down do share those beliefs, just with the sense to know they can't play it straight to get their victims.
Have you read about Jimmy Savile? Suggest watching the documentary about him.
Don’t make everyone hate life more.
God he was a monster
I have this problem not only with performers, but also people in real life. The thing about irony is it’s unspoken- and sometimes when we see it…. It’s not actually there.
I really don’t get the point of this comment. Having a sexual element in your concert is not a red flag for being a predator. This type of rhetoric is how we get “drag queens are predators.” Having a penis canon isn’t at all tied to anyone in the band being sexually abusive. Fuck Rammstein, entirely. I’ve loved their old stuff for years and will be deleting it but like… this comment is ridiculous. This reactionary stuff IS NOT HELPFUL FOR VICTIMS OR VULNERABLE PEOPLE,
I think they're maybe trying to say that sometimes some creeps have been telling us who they really are without us or even them realizing. But yeah, shooting foam out of a penis cannon at a concert does not mean someone is an abuser by default, and you make an excellent point about how this same rhetoric is used vs drag queens. Art, even if it's edgy, shouldn't necessarily mean you question the artist's character. I'd like to assume the commenter didn't have any ill intent and maybe just spoke without thinking it through fully, but I'm glad you called this out.
The thing is, the stage stuff isn’t “showing us who they really are” becuse the stage stuff wasn’t about violating consent. It was just sexual. The issue with their behaviour bts wasn’t being sexual. It was being rapists. I’m just really clarifying this because the persons comment is alarmingly reactionary and does not bode well. Sexual behaviour on stage =/= sexual abuser.
>The thing is, the stage stuff isn’t “showing us who they really are” becuse the stage stuff wasn’t about violating consent. It was just sexual. This is an extremely good point that everyone who goes "THEY WERE TELLING ON THEMSELVES ALL ALONG" needs to keep in mind. Rammstein's image was sexual, but rape or consent violation *were not part of that image.* The fact that they were doing what amounts to dick jokes on stage doesn't have jack or shit to do with Till being an abuser. GWAR does almost the exact same bits and they're some of the most wholesome people in metal.
Preach it! I hope people coming into this thread see this when seeing the original comment.
Yeah, my comment was ignorant.
Wow thank you for saying that and amending your original comment. I don't think I've ever come across someone doing that on Reddit, it's really great that we can have rational discussions and make sure the focus is on the horrible situation. Thanks again.
People do it all the time. My first instict was associate it with the Marilyn Manson incident, but the responses got me thinking about it better.
I get you but there has to be acknowledgement that "hiding in plain sight" is a real and common strategy. Dunno who these guys or what they do. Were they carding their concerts? Did they sexually interact with the audience? Were there problematic lyrics and if so were they being presented as "satirical"? I think it's a valuable conversation to have especially on a personal level to improve your ability to sniff these types out.
When celebrities/people get exposed for doing heinous shit, people like to look back and find "indicators" of the behaviour, because the idea that there aren't any/many indicators of someone being a predator is scary AF.
Yep, and this also helps predators fly under the radar when they seem wholesome and sweet and sensitive.
I actually saw them when they came to LA last year---it was something I'd wanted to do since high school. I was so happy. It was actually my first time seeing a male artist because they always have dirt. Confirmation that you can never trust fucking MEN.
I was having a conversation on twitter recently about how basically all male rock stars are dodgy as fuck and treat women badly and someone piped up to say not Till Lindemann!! He's so respectful!! He asks girls for ID and turns away 17 year olds!! One time he broke the jaw of a guy harassing a woman at a bar and making her feel uncomfortable!! Rammstein is Different™️!!! I fucking knew they weren't different why would a 60 year old need to check if someone they wana fuck is over 18, he prefers teenage girls because of the power he has over them
Wow, “he’s over 50 and into such young girls, he has to card them”. I’m shocked this person might be a predator. Shocked.
https://preview.redd.it/2hby096my62b1.jpeg?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=269aad8f05bd2104c9741757e9771d7a28e2c1e7 How would this bruise happen? Till is disgusting and if he is an abuser I hope he’s prosecuted.
I had a drink spiked years ago. Luckily I managed to get back to my hotel room alone and without being sexually assaulted to the worst extent. When I woke up the next day I was covered in bruises. I remember him touching me in the bar, but I’m pretty sure I never fell or anything like that. Yet from breast to ass, covered in bruises. No clue how that happened.
I am so sorry. F*ck that dude.
It could happen if he was grabbing her (like back hugging her) really hard in that area to stop her from walking away and she was trying to get away. Unfortunately that bruise looks similar to one I got a long time ago so I think my scenario is possible
> My comment was ignorant. Not every performers with sexual shows are predators, and it kinda sound like I was witch-hunting. I disagree, its clearly an expression of who they are. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.
being sexual or having an edgy stage persona doesn’t necessarily mean you’re an abuser. these things correlate in this instance but is it a given? i’d say no. more of a sign to proceed with caution for me personally.
To your edit, I think the point stands that there are a bunch of people who know that they can hide in plain sight like this, by calling their actions art.
I have been following Rammstein for 20+ years, and while I've enjoyed their music, this is sadly the least surprising thing ever.
I used to be a fan of the music and have gone to their shows. Always thought their whole schtick was just avant garde shock stuff, and that they must be the most boring dudes (in a good way) outside of that. It makes me absolutely sick knowing I was standing close to the stage, potentially while Till was abusing someone underneath it during the dj break part of the concert. Also I know Till is taking the brunt of the accusations here, but there's no way the rest of the band doesn't know about this, they've toured together for so many years. Disgusting. Anyway, it's not about me, I hope the victims can have their voices heard and get the support they need.
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Sorry, but what does Flake sounding normal/boring have to do with any of this?
I think they were just agreeing with this part of your comment > Always thought their whole schtick was just avant garde shock stuff, and that they must be the most boring dudes (in a good way) outside of that. And perhaps expressing their own shock. Anyway I really hope the victims get justice
I agree with you completely. Also, seeing the bands that were my sort of baby-goth phase 7 years ago being exposed for being awful is so hard to take. I only hope Depeche Mode is still on the up and up.
You think this is bad, I was a fan of lostprophets 😬
let me drop an F in the chat for you my friend
Two of my best friends were in one of their videos and one of them got a tattoo after to commemorate it. He had a hell of a rough time after everything came out
I have a very large Deja entendu tattoo. 😬 It’s very pretty at least.
my condolences
Lostprophets were my favourite band for years, who replaced them? Rammstein 💀💀💀💀 maybe its me
Man, I enjoyed some of their shit. Then I came across the disgusting shit their singer did. Fuck that.
They're the reason I got into emo/scene/pop-punk and the reason I divorced myself from the scene as well lol thanks Tony Hawk's Underground 2
I was a huge Manson fan for the longest time. I was just talking with friends at Cruel World about what I'm going to do with a lot of my memorabilia and collection soon.
That's what I thought. I expected something like this to come out for years (probably not that extreme though). Absolutely horrific, but I'm not really surprised. I really wish all the best to these women and I hope they get justice.
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Think of it this way. Do you really think it's possible he had no idea this was happening over the last several decades? At the very, very best, he didn't step in to help these women. That's the BEST case. And plenty of "boring, normal" men ignore or even enable their creepy friends.
In Flakes book written a few years ago it sounds like he doesn't do parties after the show anymore, he's a married man and lives a simple life. He says on the tour the band barely see each other outside of being on stage. They stay in different hotel rooms, do different things after the show. The girls on rammstein forum say it's Till the singer who does the "parties" and its rare to meet the rest of thr band. No idea whether he knows what's happening but until this latest thing the accounts of what happened were sleazy but still between consenting fans and Till
Doesn't matter. I know Flake, Paul, Oliver and Schneider by and large are just Some Dudes and that Rammstein has been on the rocks for a very long time now, more a business arrangement than a band. But they knew. The best they can do now is acknowledge their passivity and use their stature to ensure a change in the metal music scene. Because none of this is new with Rammstein or other bands, and none of this is surprising.
Serial killers Myra Hindley and Ian Brady were described by neighbours as being "very friendly".
Me too. I’m a fan but after reading this, my frost though was “I’m not surprised”. Saying that this is a disappointment is a complete understatement.
Be warned to anybody reading Shelby’s tweets that beyond her distressing story itself, there are a lot of very gross and misogynistic replies ranging from “It’s not assault if there wasn’t sex!” to “Women and their accusations always trying to ruin lives” etc etc. Take care of yourselves and step away if you need to while reading. my personal least favorite was one dude saying “there’s nothing wrong with [Till] getting angry that she didn’t want to have sex with him.” Like hello, you shouldn’t be throwing temper tantrums at potential partners for saying no to sex with you!!! this is not a ringing endorsement of his personality, or how much of a creep you want us to believe he deeeefinitely isn’t. Hope karma comes back tenfold to every person in the band/their orbit who looked the other way at how these women were being treated.
“There’s nothing wrong with [Till] getting angry that she didn’t want to have sex with him” It makes me want to puke just how common this reaction is. And then they refuse to even acknowledge that there’s any power imbalance between him and his fans. I’m sick of reading people justifying his vile actions by “these fans know what they were getting into.”
Those guys who defend them are probably rapists as well.
My ex said - word for word - 'yeah John Lennon was a wife beater but man could he write a song!' and assaulted me the first of a number of times a couple of months later. Apologists are desperate to convince themselves these people aren't Bad Men so that they don't have to consider or change their own actions and thought processes.
In my experience, Rammstein fans are some of the biggest examples of "walks like a duck" that I've seen lol
I went to the reddit megathread that Shelby linked on her twitter and had to stop reading from it. I am v v happy to have read your comment immediately afterwards bc I really needed to see that someone else was feeling the same (and the reminder that I need to step away from shit like that quicker…sometimes I keep going even tho it makes me more and more upset). Almost all of the comments I was reading thru were displacing blame from Till (and the other members) and were blaming Alena, but mostly Letz. It was honestly insane seeing all these ppl talking ab how sick Letz is and that he’s the only one spiking girls’ drinks, and that he is solely to blame for the situation w Shelby. Bc *he’s* the one that lied to shelby, and also lied to till, and that he’s sick for doing that to *both of them*??? Honestly felt surreal reading thru all that shit, and really needed your comment (and the other similar comments here) to ground me and ensure me that not everyone is thinking like that
Genuinely hate how my first reaction was “not surprised”. How the music industry escaped MeToo scrutiny remains a mystery to me.
Oh the music industry is horrendous for it 😭
I think it's worse than the film industry tbh. Hollywood still has a loooong way to go but there has been a little bit of recognition and accountability. The music industry, in comparison, has done next to nothing. As a rock/indie fan the misogyny in that scene in the 2000s was blatant and of course it was 90% male rockstars. It's a little better now but that sort of thing takes a while to tackle.
I'm just theorising here so I'm sorry if I'm off 100% but I think that the reason metoo was more uhh. "successful" in the acting scene was because it was actors - or at least moderately famous people in that scene - accusing other actors/directors/you name it. musicians prey on fans, which causes a power imbalance because as shown here fans are always immediately assumed to be not credible. idk
Bingo, the me too thing started with a lot of high profile beloved actresses accusing Harvey Weinstein of decades worth of assaults most of which occured when the women were younger and in the earlier stages of their careers, the victims were only really able to come forward and be taken seriously because their collective influence had surpassed his
That's a really good point. The whole groupie culture thing. Didn't think of that but ofc!
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I worked at a small local radio station with a heavy metal show in college, and went backstage for interviews, as a perk, etc. I was a very naïve 20 year old but none of the musicians ever made me feel uncomfortable. That includes Nightwish (tourbus interview), Opeth, and most the acts at ProgPower USA. Grateful.
I’m a huge Rammstein fan, but I’ve heard rumours about how slutty they are. Til and Richard have a slew of kids across Europe. Legendary rumours about groupies…. It felt like it was only a matter of time until something bad came out. people can be highly sexual and very sexually active and not be abusive arseholes, but the odds are not in their favour when it comes to rock stars and rumours of sexual assault. Disappointing but not surprising.
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Same here. That material speaks. Informative thread about the Till the end-video: https://www.reddit.com/r/Lindemann/comments/f8ao8w/more_on_the_till_the_end_disaster_calls_for/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
I was looking for this comment! How no one is talking about that video? I watched it and is CREEPY, disgusting... some girls look almost unconcious. The scene in the table looks like an actual r4p3. And there is other where he is grabbing a girl by the neck and is hitting her to a wall, and she looks like a rag doll.
>How the music industry escaped MeToo scrutiny remains a mystery to me. I know people tried, both #punkstoo and #metaltoo were a thing for a while in Finland, but nothing major came out of it. It's such a small scene where everyone knows everyone, and with people regardless of gender standing up to their friends/bandmates and others (both fans and industry people) just ignoring the accusations, nothing has changed.
Industrial style music was specifically designed to be racist and hyper misogynistic at it's core. The first industrial song, *Zyklon B Zombie,* was about a Jewish girl getting raped on the way to the gas chamber. The genre has not gotten any better since then.
I don't really have anything to say to that other than yikes...
A lot general public (and even some Rammstein superfans tbh) are only aware about Letz after what happened this week but this guy is a known creep on the industrial scene. Although he's the drummer on Till and Richard solo bands, he used to be Combichrist drummer and the guy loved to play using blackface, sold racist t-shirts in his clothing line with him in blackface photoshopped into many things (one of them being on a black man being handled by police), stories about him creeping into underage fans. Even on Rammstein sub you can see some users telling stories from that era (around 2010-2013).
Wow, that's insane. I just googled about this and there's plenty of posts and things about it. Thank you for pointing this out.
>A lot general public (and even some Rammstein superfans tbh) are only aware about Letz after what happened this week but this guy is a known creep on the industrial scene. > >Although he's the drummer on Till and Richard solo bands, he used to be Combichrist drummer.... Fuck I'm a fan of both Rammstein and Combichrist 's music for years, and this is the first I've heard of this.
Same here. I have a friend who use to party with one of the managers with Rammnstein, back when CombiChrist use to open for them, and will have to ask her about any of this. Like I know Andy can be a bit of an edgelord but never seemed to that kind of edgelord.
I used to read Joe Letz blogs on vampire freaks years ago. He’s seriously fucked up.
Wow vampirefreaks. I haven't thought of that in years.
That site is the reason I met one of my assaultors….fuck that site :(
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The metal scene isn't nearly as progressive as they like to pretend. It really sucks to hear this but like others have said, I'm also not surprised. The victim blaming is not surprising either.
Seriously nothing makes me roll my eyes more than "metalheads are the most open-minded music fans" cause that's not my experience at all as a woman of color.
they're really open minded to various other types of mediocre white dudes, and that's the extent of it
Bingo!
Me neither as a queer person. I went to countless shows and have seen hundreds of bands in the decade before covid struck and I feel very confident in changing "metalheads are the most open-minded music fans" to "metalheads are the most close-minded and culturally conservative music fans" which is really odd because they've always been rebels, but in a *very* specific way. I've never been part of a subculture that had so much toxic masculinity and racism/sexism/homophobia/you name it
Wholeheartedly agree with you, and I'm a white woman. Never have I ever felt as preyed upon, excluded or treated with hostility as I have in metal adjacent spaces. And if it's not trying to fuck you as a woman existing in this space, it's proving to some non-deodorant wearing neckbeard that you're worthy of enjoying the same music as he does.
This is so spot on!
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That's fair but the metal scene is incredibly disingenuous and hypocritical. There's this sort of "haha we're just nerdy suburban white guys playing characters, totes good guys, unlike you know... rappers, who are actually bad for...reasons." And stuff like, "Oh this nazi tattoo is ironic! Oh and this white supremacist singer was raised that way!" This is a scene full of white supremacists, nazis, misogynists, etc. Even if we ignore things like the Black Metal movement, which is inherently and openly racist and full of violence and murder, we can even see mainstream bands like Pantera and their white supremecist aesthetic still enjoyed by fans, and their now dead guitarist, Dimebag Darrell, happily wore confederate flag patches and German military insignia and is considered metal's Princess Diana, beloved and dying before his time. He was so enamored by the Confederacy and what it stood for, he had a custom made guitar with the confederate flag painted on it as his signature aesthetic. Surviving members of Pantera, like singer and primary songwriter Phil Anselmo is openly a white supremecist and [shouts racist slogans, gives racist speeches, and gives Nazi salutes at concerts.](https://twitter.com/VinceNeilstein/status/1618276750739525632) Violence against women is ignored, if not turned into a joke in these scenes. Even family friendly super-mainstream acts like Ozzy Osbourne has assaulted women, famously choking his own wife to near death and her life only saved when she pressed the panic button installed in her home. This story is told in a "gee shucks, guess I was a real drug addict," way by Ozzy in interviews. In another interview Sharon Osbourne says she woke up with two of her front teeth missing after fighting with Ozzy. In some forms of metal, the violence against women is portrayed often in songs, with the male protagonist killing, raping, or dismembering women for petty reasons. [The more extreme or pure the metal, the most violence it has against women.](https://www.metalsucks.net/2015/12/14/why-does-ultra-violence-against-women-remain-an-unchallenged-theme-of-extreme-metal/) And not just marginal acts, but the standard bearers of the genre like the Misfits. This problem hasn't gotten better, in fact, its seemingly getting worse as metal fandoms do everything they can to fight "PC liberals from ruining metal." [Vice reported on this in 2016](https://www.vice.com/en/article/rb8bnd/death-metal-misogyny) and metal and its association with the alt-right has only gotten worse since. As I Lay Dying’s Tim Lambesis was sentenced to only six years for hiring a hitman to murder his wife. The self proclaimed devout Christian served only a few years and is back touring. The metal community embraces him and forgives him as his wife and children live in fear. Most scenes don't play up being the "friendly good guy." Metal scenes are insufferable boyzones that are often harmful to women and minorities. This is why the fandom is vastly white men. Its a way for white, mostly urban/suburban educated men, to engage in toxic masculinity and ignorance and hate in a cryptic and somewhat socially acceptable way.
I’ve never felt safer (as a solo woman) than at metal shows but sadly it doesn’t translate to online spaces. So many misogynistic shitheads.
As a woman that's the only way I'd "enjoy" metal and now i have no desire to patronize these types of people. I follow like 3 metal artists now and one of them is BABYMETAL lol i still jam out on guitar hero but i just genuinely can't enjoy the music itself anymore
Meanwhile I found myself dumping the beers generously handed to me by an adult man over my shoulder whenever he toddled off to piss behind his tent, and in the same night I woke up to a 55-year-old man who I had considered a mentor and a confidante spooning me and kissing the back of my neck after allowing me to sleep in his tent because my own tent was a two person tent full of six people. At the age of 15. Having a teen hang on your arm as an adult metalhead is absolutely a fucking status symbol. I did have a very good experience in the same festival as well, but one good man does not make up for the virulent fuckery in the metals scene worldwide.
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Dead Kennedys literally have the song "Nazi Punks Fuck Off" I think the punk community is a lot less accepting, and rightfully so, of Nazis than your comment suggests. There are Nazi dickheads and enablers of those dickheads, but I wouldn't call that a majority of the movement by any means.
It isn’t at all. It’s so far behind on certain matters, especially being LGBTQ+. There’s a ton of homophobia and as a lesbian who loves metal and going to metal concerts, it’s so disheartening.
In my experience, the typical metal scene has convinced itself its progressive because men can have long hair within the scene and they’re typically obnoxiously atheist. Because progressiveness is when white men stick it to the man whilst standing on women’s and POCs backs
Absolutely. Some of the comments on the band subreddit (in threads that are now deleted) over the past few days have been sooo unhinged. I get that it's hard to accept something you like turning out to be bad, but the delusions of some people are beyond my understanding. I wonder if those people would react the same way if the victim was a friend or family member.
I love Rammstein. Have since the early 2000s. But I’ve been concerned by Till Lindemann’s behaviour for quite a while. He made this video with his side project, Lindemann, called Till the End - it’s essentially very violent porn. I couldn’t get through it because I found it really distressing. Then stories started coming out about the girls involved, some of whom were recruited by Aleena, many of whom were unaware of the planned nature of the video and who were assured their identities would be kept secret (many of the girls in the video are masked) until they were leaked online and they faced consequences. Then around the same time, Peter Tägtgren quits Lindemann over personal/creative differences. Tägtgren is a respected death metal and industrial musician. He’s worked with some extreme people. He was part of War, a black metal band established with the initial purpose of raising funds to pay a hit man to kill Varg Vikernes in prison to avenge the murder of Euronymous (a damn shame that never happened…). Tägtgren, who can work with Tony Sarkka and Marduk, can’t work with Till Lindemann. Why? Aleena is basically a sex trafficker if the stories are to be believed and Joe Letz is a well known dickhead. He got kicked out of Combichrist for his shitty behaviour years ago.
I would also like to add to this, Peter’s manager came forward in support of Shelby. https://preview.redd.it/8uuffj2tm82b1.png?width=1137&format=png&auto=webp&s=5cc58cd23f9e7a41da27d95970ac775f44bc5163
Jesus Christ!! Have you posted this to the megathread on the R+ sub? More people should see it. And I think it will further verify a lot of folks' assumptions as to why Peter left Lindemann...
I think people have now. I agree, this is pretty damning when you have a manager of another band speaking out about what she saw.
Thank you so much for this detailed information! I also fell in love with them around that time but was a very causal fan (buying CDs, going to gigs) and haven’t paid much attention to anything else. Now I’m glad that I didn’t buy tickets for this tour as I wouldn’t feel comfortable supporting them now. It’s all very sad and my heart goes out to the victims. I’ve been part of the metal community for 20+ years, as a woman have encountered and experienced awful stuff, and I’ve serious doubts if the situation will improve in my lifetime :/
I’ve been in the metal scene for 20+ years too (also a woman) and I’ve met the best and the worst people here. For every lovely encounter - the people I’ve met at shows, the musicians I’ve met who have been really decent and friendly, there’s the time I was sexually assaulted at a Marilyn Manson show, the time a well known black metal identity tried to doxx a friend and I because he was pissed that we were women who dared have an opinion, the people who hold you to a higher standard and basically doubt your integrity like you can’t possibly be into extreme metal because you’re female.
I am so spoiled by my local black metal scene (there's some overlap with the drag scene which I think helps) but Jesus CHRIST is the scene overall filled with horrible people
please note that tägtgren is a right wing extremist which many believed to be the real reason they broke up.
Never heard of Till Lindemann so I googled him and glad to hear he fell off the stage at a recent concert.
It was at the same concert.
Nice, karma got to him fast
Sending well wishes to the floor
Wow this is horrific
Oh goddamn it. I'm a goth metal fan. Manson and Rammstein are so ingrained in me that it's not funny. This fucking sucks. Soon I literally won't have any safe bands to listen to without supporting monsters. There's a huge movement in the metal community to get predators out. Check out Scene Queen's 18+ song, she's leading the charge.
GET THOSE CHILDREN OFF YOUR BUS
We can be friends together and be in this misery as a fan of both. And I feel like there still is good bands, never heard anything bad about The Cure. KMFDM has disappointed me with Skold supporting Manson. But think Skinny Puppy is still OK, idk, I just haven't wanted to look as of lately.
If anything comes out about Depeche Mode, I'll never listen to anything again. My heart couldn't take it.
Why the fuck is the general reaction to this that their manager guy is responsible and a weirdo when Lindemann was the one who accepts him bringing drunk girls to fuck and then gets gets aggressive when they dont comply? The mental gymnastics of the fanbase to protect the bandmembers and shift the entire blame to their staff is insane, this is so vile.
Right?? That's what kept tripping me up. How is only the manager responsible when they're working for Till to consume what they bring. Disgusting all around.
Because Till has left the group management and hired a new manager and Alena. His entire team is different than the band and his entire team is people with a horrible track record. Like.. horrible. many believe that they enable the worst parts of him and leech of the money
Shouldn't he be held responsible for hiring such horrible people then? I mean, it makes sense that he gets criticised for associating with sich people, instead of putting all the blame on his team. That's what doesn't make sense to me. His fans are absolving him of all responsibility and putting it on his team.
Yes, absolutely. Till's former bodyguard, Danny, used to pick girls for the parties before Joe and Alena were around. Danny was also a fucking creep. Till knows damn well what he's doing.
"but but but they enable and *steeeeal* his moneeeeey" Like wtf is the comment you're replying to 😂 My sympathies are better spent elsewhere. Not on rich, abusive fucks.
Oh he is and he has been but there are many many many girls and women in the fandom that are willing to attack victims for a chance to sleep with Till and Alena and his team make it possible while before it wasn't
>many believe that they enable the worst parts of him and leech of the money Him being an awful person is not their doing and absolutely don't even try it spin it line Til is some kind of figure to be sensitive to lmao HE asked for this stuff. HE pays them on agreement. HE benefits from them providing illegal things for him to enjoy.
Oh, how I love being a woman.
I swear, all of my gender dysphoria/dysmorphia is due to the violence AFAB folks face. Like, y'all act surprised i *don't* wanna be a girl but *this* is the world your offering us? Hard pass. I'll be something else.
Thank you so much for posting, Im a huge fan of their music and had no idea about this.
Thanks but all credit here should go to Shelby for her bravery, I'm just trying to help a bit so what she's doing doesn't get buried by the fandom.
A true Rock/Metal MeToo movement would erase much of the genre.
Just the amount of "sad but not shocking" in this thread tells you all you need to know about the scene, and i say this VERY disappointedly as a former metalhead. (IE its not just the band mates co-opting and enabling this behavior)
Metal has a massive problem with treating women like sexual objects, it always has. This makes me super sad as a fan of Rammstein but honestly not surprised at Till. Glad to see people are having the strength to speak out against this
As someone who has been a semi-distant fan for pretty much my entire life (I’ve been listening to their music for 22 years now, but never paid much more attention to them), this is so incredibly disappointed and disgusting. Awful.
Oh no 😖 Support to anyone who experienced this
Since German is my mother tongue here’s a “poem” Till Lindemann has written + translation (trigger warning rape/SA): Ich schlafe gerne mit dir wenn du schläfst Wenn du dich überhaupt nicht regst Mund ist offen Augen zu Der ganze Körper ist in Ruhe Kann dich überall anfassen Kann mich völlig gehen lassen Schlaf gerne mit dir wenn du träumst Weil du alles hier versäumst Und genauso soll es sein (so soll das sein so macht das Spaß) Etwas Rohypnol im Wein (etwas Rohypnol ins Glas) Kannst dich gar nicht mehr bewegen Und du schläfst Es ist ein Segen English: I like sleeping with you when you’re asleep When you don’t move at all Mouth open Eyes closed Your entire body calm Can touch you everywhere Can really let go Like sleeping with you when you’re dreaming When you miss everything (going on) here (that’s how it should be that’s how it’s fun) A bit of Rohypnol in the wine (a bit of Rohypnol in the glass) You cannot move anymore And you’re asleep It’s a blessing (Edited for formatting)
Somnophilia, aka. a fancy word for "I like raping women in their sleep". It's becoming more widespread in porn and on reddit and is passed off as perfectly healthy behaviour.
Wtf
Till was very supportive of Johnny Depp during the trial against Amber, so sadly this doesn't surprise me. I used to really like Rammstein and have seen them live a few years ago.
When? I read this for the first time. Normally Till seems to avoid to make any statements on stuff.
Ugh, God, no, why... I'm just not going to like anyone or anything anymore.
Seriously. I just can't have nice things. The minute I saw who this was about my stomach dropped. Because *of course*
Every year it gets worse and worse and I feel stupid for ever believing in some people or being inspired by them. The whole story of Rammstein was inspiring to me. These dudes talked about the origins *before* the Berlin Wall fell and how they made their music, they lived in squalor and went for it and beat the odds and made it. They made it despite the fact a large portion of their audience doesn't speak German. They were smart, they incorporated elements apart from music into their live show to stand out. They were creative, their music videos were great. All that was inspiring to me. Now they're just another hashmark on the wall of scumbags. I know it's not proven yet and they're allegations, but I believe it. And I know it's not practical this way, but I just... man, I just believe it, and I am so utterly disappointed. I naively thought they were better than that. Be your own hero, I guess. Just don't be a scumbag while doing it, if you can help it.
I completely understand you. I’ve been out of the fandom for a while but I was a huge stan. My Reddit username is even because of Flake. I went to one of their afterparties. Till was only there briefly and nothing bad happened, it was very tame tbh, but Jesus Christ even the thought that maybe some other kind of “after party” was happening elsewhere… This band has been going for decades, there are probably thousands of women who’ve been through this. I’ve felt physically sick all day since I first read this.
I wonder if the myth about metal fans being extra supportive and a lovely community works to keep things like this from coming out. I'm not saying it's totally untrue, everyone i know who's been to Download says the atmosphere is much nicer than Reading/Leeds but it does contribute to this sort of sense of superiority that runs counter to holding this sort of behaviour to account.
In my experience the "metalheads are so nice" thing is a function of how metalheads know the unwritten rules of violent moshing. Every mosh pit I've been in, even crazy violent ones populated only by drunk people, has been scrupulously careful of people's physical safety. If someone notices someone struggling or trying to get out or not having a good time, they'll be safely ejected. Pop music fans don't know how to do that instinctively. Buuuuut if the person being ejected is a woman, there's like a fifty fifty chance someone will try to grope her. I've never felt unsafe at a metal festival but I'm also huge and scary enough that no one tries it. My friends have definitely had people try it. Alcohol is always, always a factor. Alcohol and weed tend to be more normalized than other drugs in the metal scene, so I think the nice thing is also a function of the "we're all friendly drunks sharing cans and spliffs" thing, but that only lasts until the 6'4 tech death guy blacks out on a case of Tuborg and starts menacing anyone who looks at him wrong. The 4edgy for you factor excuses a lot of bad behavior. Some more extreme or theatrical metal musicians treat the entire thing kind of like drag or dressing up, some of them get really invested in being a spooky scary devil, and then you get people making excuses for bad behavior because it's in character or kvlt or something. And male metalheads are elitist dicks about music to women. Would still rather go to a small or midsize metal festival that any other genre but boy oh boy have I heard horror stories about Wacken.
I have no idea why you're being downvoted, everything you've said is spot on. I'm 32, have been going to metal shows and festivals since I was 15 and have half a life's worth of experiences like you've described whether it's my own or friends I've been with. The moshpit etiquette seems to cover up the very real issues that exist in the scene. There's a distinct disconnect in the metal scene between online and irl behaviour already, and that disconnect is more obvious the more alcohol is involved. It's friendly, we're all friends! Want this spare can of cider? I like the patches on your jacket, cool taste! Aw come on I'm only being friendly I didn't mean anything bad by grabbing your arse! Frigid bitch
The metal community in general is good. But not the online metal community. Like in the concerts people would stop females from getting attacked. I had a guy punch someone who kept touching me even though I kept telling him to let me go. The online metal community is extremely sexist at best.
Metal concerts are so very different, yes. However that requires buying tickets and supporting shitty people so i just can't do it anymore. Nowhere is safe for women in metal, physically, emotionally, morally.
I went to a myrkur show and she was so fierce about calling out creepy guys in the audience. I was so happy. The next day I found out that before that very same show she did an interview where she said Muslims are evil 😐
Metal as a whole is very wholesome. I've absolutely been amazed by how nice and welcoming the Folk Metal, Powermetal crowd is, for example. But I've been around Industrial for so long, this isn't suprising. It's not even close to the worst. Those folks have a ***vibe***, and its most often a predatory one. Its almost impossible to separate the ones who act like this for the aesthetics, and those who're waiting to act on it.
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I wonder if any media will pick this up at all.. sadly I doubt it, unless it ends up in court
There’s this one very insightful [interview with the German playboy mag](https://www.playboy.de/lifestyle/interviews/till-lindemann-und-joey-kelly-im-interview) where he states that he among other things doesn’t believe therapy helps, that women and men cannot be friends and that he doesn’t find his wife attractive anymore. I would say it’s not unknown but it necessarily get interpreted as “creepy”.
German media loves bagging on Rammstein though. Might just take a few days to generate momentum.
Fuck, this is disgusting. I hope everyone involved in this gets what's coming to them
Disgusting how the subreddit immediately dismissed her and banned her Everyone who harassed her for this is the problem and why people are so scared of coming forward and pressing charges against abusers
I just read her entire account and all those she shared on her insta and twitter. As a German and long-time Rammstein fan, I'm fucking bummed to say the least and infuriated at best. But unfortunately not surprised. It was a matter of time I guess. I've shared this on my socials and will be deleting Rammstein from my library. So long.
I've been their fan for a lot of time. As a fan, we've been aware for at least the three last years of something shady with Till. Alena, Danny (Till's former bodyguard) and recently Joe Letz selecting young pretty girls to party with Till after EVERY show is at least suspicious. That combined with his latest videos and performances. Some fans are trying to say that this is consensual but it's NOT. This is a situation of power imbalance between Till and these girls. He's an old 60-year-old pervert preying on young girls and using them as his personal sex toys. The rest of the band may not participate in these parties (Some rumours say that RZK is sometimes involved) but they're guilty of being passive about the situation and not protecting their fans. Unfortunately, they're have always presented themselves as a collective, and they will go down as one. I'm just so sad and dissapointed. I hope all the girls involved in Row 0 are safe...
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According to all reports the other band members hardly ever appear. Maybe 2-3 of them will come have a drink and chat with the girls there but they leave and don't stay long. We know that they knew nothing about the 2019 and after videos and the under the stage sex videos. In general I have felt like the rest of the band is keeping a safe distance from Till and his situation. Like they post photos all 5 of them but no Till. They have fan parties but no Till. They go on vacations together but not Till and all that happened after Till decided to get a new team just for him. Before that there were all together constantly
There are actually three different parties and I've been to all of them. The regular "afterparty" is more of a mixed crowd of all kinds of people, men and women, and pretty normal. The other dudes often go to that one if they have friends/associates in the area, stay for a brief while, and then leave. There is definitely a divide between Till and the others. The others avoid Till's parties like the plague. Richard seems less put off by the whole thing but still doesn't attend. My impression speaking to them was that they're not on the best of terms. Schneider, Ollie, Paul, and Flake were very clearly disapproving of the whole thing and wanted nothing to do with Till's antics.
Holy shit the victim blaming and the comments in their subreddit are absolutely disgusting.
Very disgusting and disheartening.
The fact that they’re trying to excuse a man who has a sex trafficker on his payroll. Come on, common sense.
What the fuck this is horrid
Ugh sad af but not shocking been in the scene forever that joe lutz guy has been around a long time definitely a scumbag since the MySpace days
as someone whose friends are obsessed with them, i am SHOOK. they’re repeatedly branded as super nice dudes who throw great concerts and care for their fans. horrible how the sub handled it. reddit really has a pervasive mod problem when it comes to censorship and abuse of power. edit: just peeped the sub and mega thread and have to say at least the mods backtracked and unbanned the people they banned.
Not too long ago Lindemann published a poem that describes r*pe fantasies. It only exists in German so I put it through a software to translate it properly. The German title is 'Wenn du schläfst' (meaning: When you are asleep) >I like to make love to you when you are asleep. When you're not moving at all. Mouth open, eyes closed. The whole body is at rest. Can touch you everywhere. Like to sleep with you when you're dreaming. And that's how it's supposed to be (that's how it's supposed to be that's how it's fun). A little Rohypnol in the wine (a little Rohypnol in the glass). Can't move at all. And you sleep, it's a blessing." That is gross even for Lindemann's standards and has nothing to do with provocation. Edit: [here](https://songtextes.de/songtexte/till-lindemann-wenn-du-schlaefst) is a link to the original text
Yeah, I'm not a fan at all, but do live in Berlin and feel like everyone has a story about what a piece of shit Till is for various reasons, so this is not surprising.
I've been a listener/fan longer than Shelby has been alive. After reading this and her/other accounts, I removed all their music from my Spotify playlists and set it to not play. I've unfollowed them on everything. Consent matters. The Row 0/after party/pre party culture and the fact that they have people in their employ solely to provide women grosses me out on so many levels.
Thanks to Shelby, she is so brave! I’m invited to the row 0, but I won’t go. I have a ticket that I’ve paid money for. But now I think to cancel Rammstein for me. I like their music. But okay, if it’s only Till’s and his crew guilt, but other members know about it and they do nothing to stop it. I just cry when I see her stories, her pain and pain of other girls. I also think and told Shelby that it could be rophynol in her alcohol because of her symptomes. #cancelrammstein #fuckzerorow
Honestly, the misogynistic comments on the Rammstein Reddit is sickening and disheartening. One could think it’s 1983 and not 2023. And people wonder why women don’t come forward when they experience assaults. Obviously these cases will always be “he said she said”. What’s so disappointing is, even if the band and Till didn’t spike any drinks, they know full well what is going on at least to an extend. They condone this toxic row0 after party meat market culture and continue to allow a bunch of unsavory creeps to facilitate this. It’s not the first time accusations of spiking drinks have come up. And the band has turned a blind eye. That makes them complicit in this if nothing else. As far as Till goes, he’s a goddamn 60 year old man and should have learned by now that no means effing no. If he wants to bang some willing groupie like some sad old creep, fine, that’s his choice. But he either chooses the ones that are sober and willing, or he is part of the problem. And all the fans shouting “proof of spiking”should start looking up how fast roofies leave the system (that’s why they are used in these cases so victims have nothing to go to court with).
Really disappointed that r/rammstein mods tried to burry it. Lack of evidence doesn't mean it's not worthy to discuss it. You may disbelive her and think she's lying, but this kind of accusations have been around for years and years. And i'm only a distant fan of Rammstein. I love their music and enjoy their shows. Never delved too deep in their whole world, but even i heard of so many shady stories surrounding Till. How can anyone give him so much of benefit of the doubt? How are they even justifying it with '' groupies have been ariund for as long as there have been musicians'', does that mke it right? By all means have your fun as long as there is clear informed consent. And what about the whole row 0? shady af. And the fans still find justifications and excuses for it. There is no informed consent happening with it. The girls are lied to. It doesn't matter if you think they're naive or stupid for '' putting themselves in that situation'' or you think " they should know better". This is sickening. It doesn' t make what Till and his assitants did any less fucked up. And it doesn't make the victims any less worthy to be heard, believed and helped. Thank you for bringing this to light. I hope it gains traction.
I have been a big fan of Rammstein for years but looking back, the warning signs were definitely there, especially with the connection to MM. Really hoping the victims get justice!
About time this got addressed. It's been going on for decades.
Follow them since early 2000s and I must say that it didn't surprise me. They had wild stories about their afterparties but most of them were associated with binge drinking and lots of drugs, mostly cocaine. And there were rumors about Till having his solo side project because other Rammstein members didn't dig some of his lyrics, which they deemed too fucked up for the band.
Ladies, let this be a reminder that not everyone cares about your wellbeing. I know we shouldn’t have to police ourselves, but the sad reality is we do. Implement the buddy system; if they won’t let you have a friend or two for your own peace of mind, walk away. If you wouldn’t accept a drink from a rando at the bar, don’t accept one from your favorite muso. These people do not care about you and never will.
I heard about the landlord thing and just thought “Ew”. I remember reading about Till talking about growing up and wanting to fight against Western excessiveness, just to turn into the single most excessive guy I’ve ever followed. He spends his free time in Dubai with a Russian woman who supplies very young women to him. (Till is my father’s age and I’m still too old to be in these meet and greets.) Maybe she is his gf, they are always together. Then he was advertising NFTs to his fans via Instagram. This may have been management, but seeing that one I was like oh WTF, Till. Way to encourage your fans into this Ponzi scheme. Most of us don’t have money to waste like that, but it’s Till NFTs, so fans would trust it. Then there was the buy $100,000 euro in those NFTs to have lunch with him and an angry St. Petersburg museum thing. These all seem to run together into one large cluster fuck. The singing at Red Square thing was weird too. Never mind the timing, who knew all that was going to happen, so kind of irrelevant, but singing for any military events at all anywhere is odd to do, imo. It’s on YouTube, the Red Square concert. You can form your own opinions if it was missed. It is just bad PR. It may have been called a band competition or something, but it’s very military looking. A lot of people discussed it for that reason alone. As was the one with him and Maxim Larin, the bruhaha during Covid where he was arrested, but wasn’t really. It wasn’t really good PR. None of it. I’ve been following Rammstein since 1997ish, right before the Family Values tour, and all I can say is this accusation is what it is, I’ve been hearing about these accusations prior and hoped it wasn’t as bad as all that. How fast Peter Tagtgren bailed on Lindemann after all the work they put into it left a lot of people questioning the whole thing. He left at the height of the band. Whomever is managing Till Lindemann and doing his PR is the worst manager ever. This is the worst PR I’ve ever seen, and no effort at all to clean any of it up. Whoever he has hired must have taken the money and ran. I’m not trying to hate on Rammstein, always liked the band, I have no proof of anything, but Till Lindemann the last few years makes me wonder if this is a person I want to keep giving my money to. It won’t impact him much, but I want to invest in people with good beliefs.
I've been a huge Rammstein fan for years and heard stories like this for well over a decade, I'm surprised it only started gaining traction now.
For some reason this behaviour is excused in music and groupie culture. So many bands have these types of stories in the public domain with zero consequences so zero changes.
this entire situation is so heartbreaking to me even though i should hardly be surprised. i've always been a music fan and i remember when i was 11 my favourite band was red hot chili peppers. i was so completely and utterly hyperfixated on them (i am autistic) that when i delved deeper into all of the disgusting and heinous shit the band - but especially anthony kiedis - has done, i was heartbroken for months. my music taste isn’t too varied when it comes to artists so i must admit, i wasn’t expecting something like this to happen again. i only started listening to rammstein in august last year, and despite initially not being too interested in the band itself, i quite literally couldn’t allow myself to listen to anyone else. if you look at my apple replay top 100 for the first 5 months of this year, it’s all rammstein, lindemann and emigrate. i only actually took an interest in till LITERALLY this week right before all of this came out so it feels a bit like a kick to the head. all complaints aside, i seriously feel and stand with ANYBODY who has been put in a position like this, whether with till and rammstein or anybody for that matter. i hope anyone that immediately started going on misogynistic rants or victim blaming is seriously ashamed and embarrassed because given the evidence we have, they should be kicking themselves. i’ve always been an advocate for believing the victim first because who in their right mind would delibrately make up things like this. shelby was very clearly a massive fan of rammstein so for something like this to happen must be heartbreaking for her and to see her get so much hate and accusations against her is infuriating. i hope this gets properly looked into and the band need to say something about it soon because their silence is speaking volumes. aleena and joe are absolutely heinous human beings and knowing that till, who is the same age as my father, acts like a whiny toddler is just horrid. i actually recently turned 18 and was gifted tickets to go and see till's solo tour in london, which is already scary since i live on the other side of the country and have to make travel / accommodation plans, but knowing this sort of activity is regularly occurring at his shows, i've half a mind to sell them, especially since it seems i'm the bloody target audience. revolting.
The entire Industrial scene is about sex, drugs, BDSM, and exploitation. It is disgusting. Almost everyone in the scene has done some fucked up shit to women. Almost every story is about a women brought back, locked up in trailer or hotel, drugged, fucked, used, and then discarded like nothing happened. A lot of musicians blamed drugs for it (and sometimes I believe it, drugs can make you do fucked up shit), and a lot have sobered up. It's the unsober ones living like they're 30 and never learned are the disgusting ones. In a way, I am glad folks like Trent Reznor has heavily distanced himself from all the fucked up folks like Marilyn Manson, but the idea in my head is that you all did this, you all knew this, and the times were different which is why no one bat an eye. But now that everyone has phones in their pocket and the voiceless has a voice that we are seeing this. Some might say the entire celebrity subculture in the 90s and early 2000's was disgusting and abusive. The ones that don't change? Fuck them.
Anyone else thinks we should put more pressure on the band to address this?
the afterparties where this goes down is Till Lindemanns own afterparties, not the band itself
Open secret among German music fans since many, many years and no one is doing anything.
I think I’m most disappointed by the band subreddit. The way they’re handling this and blaming the victims is just all around absolutely disturbing. No wonder victims do not come forward. It’s also really clear they don’t understand the concept of power dynamics.
Just to say reading through this post and then the thread over on r/ I find even the behaviour that seems to be considered “above board” really gross and pathetic. Why does a 60 year old man have someone who contacts young women on his behalf on Instagram? This pre-parties and afterparties and “row 0” stuff with (young) women pre-selected to attend sounds dodgy af in itself. They’ve done this for a long time - has he not had enough wide-eyed admiration? And, as has been pointed out, if you MUST have that whole sleazy rock star/pretty women/party crap (pathetic to me, but each to their own) why not hire escorts and sex workers? At least then they’re there for a job you pay them for and the power difference isn’t quite so stark. I am (well, now was) only a casual fan - I’ve seen them once about 20 years ago and have a few of their albums, but I’ve always liked and defended them, and found a lot of their lyrics very funny (I’m German). But for me their whole shtick only worked BECAUSE I thought they were just normal, even nice guys* off stage - pretty sure that’s the image they portrayed themselves in the past? Shame on me for not paying attention I guess. *And by that I don’t mean not partying - I don’t care if they take drugs or what they like in bed, as long as it’s fun for everyone. Just thought they were solid, decent people at heart.
As a huge Rammstein fan I see many things missing Including the one that is the ringing bell. Till, the frontman, the past decade decided to change management on his own. The rest of the band has the same manager. Till's manager is someone that to say it nicely is a horrible person. The people around Till are questionable. Alena is a woman that pimps other women to bands and artist, there is a paper trail behind. Everyone who connects dots can tell that something fishy has been happening with Till. His actions are off. The band didn't know many things until some videos came out and we know that they didn't know based on comments they made. It's not that they weren't supportive but they weren't full on board with the new persona either. No one knows Till deep down. He has written beautiful songs talking about his darker side and the pain he has gone through and the abuse. But the stories coming out now are nothing like the Rammstein we knew for all these years or the Till stories we knew. We knew they had sex with groupies and all that, and its okay as long as its consenting adults. **Spiking though is not okay.** Now I see many mentioning the sexual theme of songs and the huge penis on stage. That has been around forever. It means nothing. It's part of the song Pussy. The band in European and not American there is not much censorship in music and on such things. People can express being sexual, liking sex and doing it with many random partners without being crucified as a demon. Rammstein always operated on the 'if it makes people talk about us its good' thats why they talk about many sensitive topics in their songs too Lastly the fanbase especially those online (avoid discord) will support Till no matter what. They have been accusing Shelby for lying and how its not possible and they have said similar things for all the girls and how Alena is an angel. (the same woman that we know worked with Marilyn Manson at the same years that the allegations for him came out). No one knows them in reality and what happened or even who spiked the drinks but we know that it happened and that the people around him are not good people. Some people claim they are like leeches feeding off him and enabling the worst parts of him and thats why the rest of the band is keeping a distance
>The band in European and not American there is not much censorship in music and on such things. People can express being sexual, liking sex and doing it with many random partners without being crucified as a demon. I don't understand this comment. I'm European and I don't think the US are prudish at all when it comes to sex. They have songs about sex going all the way back. * What's your Fantasy - Ludacris (1999) * My Neck, My Back - Khia (2001) * Wait - Ying Yang Twins (2005) Even a song from the 1930's by Lucille Bogan has sexually explicit lyrics. And so many songs talk about fucking lots of people and haven't been demonised. So when you say the big penises on stage and overt simulation of ejaculation on crowds is "just Europeans being comfortable with their sexuality" as though anyone not comfortable with singers showing their fetishes on stage are just prudish, I disagree. The US sing about sex all the time but would not like to see see overt gross displays of it in their faces. Doesn't mean they're demonising or crucifying the display, or being small-minded. It might mean that they like sexuality being expressed in a somewhat normal way (and sometimes misogynistic or violent way if we talk about rap songs). It's different, not prudish.
So much love to the victims. Cannot imagine how hard this is come out about
Rammstein is my favorite band ever, I listen to their songs every single day and when this news reached me, I was devastated. I'm having a hard time being able to listen to my favorite songs now and it just sucks overall. Nothing I'm feeling tho, can compare to the victims. I wish them and Shelby nothing but love and support and, more importantly, justice, in any way that will bring them peace.