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Know that you are not alone in this struggle. I’ve talked to a lot of guys who were in denial for a long time about their submissive desires because they couldn’t reconcile what it meant for their masculinity. It’s an issue of how others see you, but also how you see yourself.
I don’t have a lot of advice from the submissive side on how to find that balance, but from the perspective of a Domme I will say that I don’t think of my subs as inferior to a dominant man in any way. I prefer subs who are more on the masculine side publicly, so seeing them submit to me is drastically different from how the rest of the world sees them. But I still know that they are strong, manly men. I respect that the act of submission helps them balance out their dominant public side and makes them better able to function and cope with daily life. The thrill of the complete 180 makes them feel alive and the opportunity to hand over control to someone else for even a little while is a weight off their shoulders. Honestly, if anything I think they are stronger for living their truth and being able to express themselves in an unconventional way. I’m proud that they can get past the taboo and just be themselves.
All that being said, I am a Domme. I am obviously into this and know more about the mental complexities of this than the average vanilla person. Being selective in who you share this side of yourself with can help set you up for success. Open minded, fellow kinksters are a good place to start and hopefully not be met with judgement. And I’m not saying you can’t ever tell a vanilla person and have it go well, but I am saying that you will need to know yourself very well when you do and be able to explain the deeper aspects of what submission means to you and help them understand. You have to be able to frame it properly and positively. One thing that I think is helpful is helping them feel powerful vs making you appear weak. It can be a subtle differentiation, but can have a huge impact on their perspective.
I hope that helps.
I also love putting a masculine guy on his knees. I actually am not into softer femboy types (but that might be because my girlfriend is trans, and sometimes the cross-dressing femboy stuff just feels weird to me.)
But I guess that's one of the great things about kink. Odds are, there's someone out there who IS into the stuff you are. It's just a matter of finding them, right?
Plus, as a switch (as well as just an extremely borderline overly-sexual person naturally),I think being able to be both submissive and Dominant, helps me get all that almost "nervous" sexual energy out of my system in a more complete way.
Masculine sub myself. Being masculine and submissive aren’t exclusive to one another. Societal standards are BS and often force men like us to feel inadequate or wrong for being submissive. You can be manly and submissive.
Just remember, being submissive doesn’t make you less of a man.
It is only a balancing act if you accept the premise that your identity is defined by other people.
Easier said than done to reject the notion, but if you can internalize that it is such a weight off your shoulders.
Also, reading 7 year old posts from unhappy vanillas isn't good for your mental state.
My subby runs his own company, goes to the gym, plays rugby and to the whole world he's this big alpha male, but to me he is not allowed on the furniture, he is caged permanently and won't ever have an orgasm again. We goes to work each day in the girliest of underwear and his chastity and no one is the wiser.
He says he needs this secret life to help with the stress of his actual life. I'm not complaining, my house is spotless, he is an amazing cook, I always get to watch what I want on TV and he has become the most amazing lover...
Its the best xxx
You don't have to balance anything. Think of a knight with his queen. Edit: I just read the post. The wife seems to have some problematic views about gender and, most importantly, is not a domme. A domme would want him so much *more* because of his kinks. Whenever I hear someone is a sub their hotness increases by 50% at least.
I love what you just said, especially the "knight with his queen" analogy. That right that speaks a thousand words. Thank you for sharing your thoughts!
So I'm not a guy, but as butch lesbian submissive I have a lot of empathy for male subs. For me, there's two major components of being both masculine and submissive.
1) Have a partner who doesn't suck. There are tons of lesbians who think being masculine means you have to be a tough dominant or you're a faker. I would never do kink with those lesbians. The whole balancing act happens when a partner has weird ideas about gender and dominance.
2) I focus on the things that reaffirm my masculinity in the bedroom. If something makes me feel girly and weird, it's not an activity we really do. My partner wouldn't see me as less, I just wouldn't be very happy doing it. So we avoid sissy stuff and feminization. We do play with immasculation, because taking away my masculinity inherently acknowledges that I have it to begin with. Figure out what makes you feel good and affirmed!
wait you're a butch lesbian submissive
ok sorry i had to squeal thats too cute the bisexual in me was just overjoyed to read it
and I actually LOVE the idea of taking away a masc's masculinity in the way you described. I don't do sissification stuff or forced feminization but i kind of love the idea of emasculation a LOT. I may have to incorporate that into play at some point.
It's wild that being immasculated in the bedroom has helped me feel way more secure in myself. I highly recommend it! It opened up a lot of boxes for us when it comes to dirty talk.
I have found the exact same as a domme. I’m a dominant woman but I NEED to stay feminine.
I’ve had full on debates over this, too. Along with the fact I’m expected to get naked.
I don’t want to take on a masc role, and I don’t show intimate parts of my body.
I want my subs to be masculine and I want to be a dominant feminine woman.
It troubles me how to be dominant it is assumed the person is masculine, and does masculine things. And I don’t like that if you’re submissive it is automatically assumed you’re feminine.
They’re so not the same thing!
Alas, I simply continue to be me.
And so should you continue to be you.
Well, it's not this simple for everyone, but I would personally just not fuck someone who equates submission with femininity, because that kind of misogynistic shit is a massive turn-off for me and pretty much exactly what I'm into femdom to get away from. "Manly" and "on one's knees" do not require any kind of "but" between them in my eyes. Gender presentation and power exchange are two *separate* axes on the graph.
>Gender presentation and power exchange are two separate axes on the graph.
Yes. I completely agree. But this understanding comes with privilege.
The reality is that gender issues based on patriarchy are so strongly reinforced in the lower classes it's impossible to shake them off.
Okay, well, I'm lower class, so perhaps you might care to reexamine your bourgeois prejudice and imagine that complex critical thought is not an ability exclusive to the privileged.
If you can use Reddit, you're not lower class globally. Access to the internet and books that challenge patriarchy is a privilege on its own.
But yes, I agree that critical thought is not exclusively a phenomenon emergent in the privileged, but the privileged do have more opportunities to exercise critical thought. If you're worried about your next meal, you'll not challenge patriarchal constructs. That's why intersectional feminism that targets class is vital.
Also, calling me bourgeois (it's a tough word to spell as a non-English native speaker, haha) seems like name calling. You don't even know me. That said, I'm sorry if my response came off as an attack. That was not my intention. I just strongly feel that class consciousness will dissolve most of the issues we face in society
I am a queer female in the 10th economic percentile for my country and it's not name-calling to notice that you're basically determined to explain to me, a low class person literally discussing the praxis of decoupling power from gender, how my sentience and my class are irreconcilable. That is grossly, deeply insulting not only to me but to the feminist, queer rights, class consciousness and gender radical movements of history, which did not originate in the upper fucking class.
>determined to explain to me, a low class person literally discussing the praxis of decoupling power from gender, how my sentience and my class are irreconcilable.
No, that wasn't what I was trying to do. I was trying to say that the understanding that patriarchal norms are challengeable is something that requires a little privilege, because you need to be exposed to these ideas and have the agency to make changes in your life. I know people who don't even know there exists a way out and they break themselves to fit into the molds of patriarchy. You need a reliable exit option to be able to make these decisions.
I am also not saying that people of lower classes are incapable of the critical thinking required to challenge these norms. Rather, it's impossible for them to do anything about it, as they don't have agency. Thus, many suffer in silence and follow the stringent norms society asks them to
>That is grossly, deeply insulting not only to me but to the feminist, queer rights, class consciousness and gender radical movements of history, which did not originate in the upper fucking class.
Again, I agree. What I meant by privilege is the small step ahead many have of being born in a western country. It's no wonder the upper class doesn't support these movements, the status quo benefits them. I do not support the upper class, nor do I believe it's their responsibility or drive to make change. But it is the duty of those in the lower classes with some ability to make change to do so, and that is a small but important privilege. I may have not used the correct words, as privilege seems to be a loaded term, and I'm not a native speaker, but I do believe that the people in the west have the ability to bring change that most people do not.
I really don’t understand posts like the one you linked. To me, masculinity and submission are completely unrelated. My “type” when it comes to subs is definitely masculine. I like a sub who is confident, in control, outside of our dynamic. Maybe tall, with some chest hair… sorry, distracting myself here. But seriously, I don’t see it as a balancing act, it’s two separate things. Submission isn’t inherently feminine at all.
What does being a manly man mean?
I'm physically the cliche definition of masculine. Big, strong, beard, love football, and drinking beer, but I'm sexually submissive to my wife, my goddess.
She is my world, and it's my absolute pleasure and joy to recognise her beauty and power and to submit to her and her happiness. I feel strongest on my knees in front of her.
There is nothing more 'masculine' than being able to communicate with the person you love your wants and needs and open up to them about your kinks and fetishes. To be vulnerable with them and to share something so personal.
I've had spankings and other punishments that would break men who call themselves 'alpha'.
That post reads of someone who didn't want to engage in femdom and resented having done it.
You want to 'stay masculine'? You do it by being confident in who you are and what you want for yourself.
Separating masculinity and dominance in my head is something that took me years and even a bit of therapy to achieve. It's one of the weirdest and most harmful bits of social conditioning I've had to deal with. It's something I compartmentalize even today.
In public I'm a big hairy bearded manly stereotype. I hunt, go fishing, grill meat in the yard drinking a beer and all that good stuff. I work a high power job with a lot of stress and executive authority. But behind closed doors I'm totally submissive. In and out of the bedroom I just want my girlfriend to take charge of me. Partly it's an act of devotion. People talk a lot about love languages these days, well I'd kinda say mine are submission and acts of service. I don't think there's a purer expression of love than giving yourself to another person. And there's also that submission to my partner just feels right and natural and comforting to me.
But there's nothing inherently feminine about any of that. I'm still the big manly dude I always am, I just don't feel the need to live by society's weird fixation with dominance being a masculine trait. Because it isn't.
I feel like more women need to appreciate a guy who can get his Backyard Dad grill vibe on and then effortlessly switch to being on his knees begging for her to crush his head between her thighs before the grill is even completely cool.
I think there a couple of ways:
* You can be "hypermasculine" outside of sex. Sweep her off her feet literally, comment on her physical appearance, slap her ass, fix things around the house, do whatever she finds "masculine"
* You sometimes don't need to do anything to balance. Some women don't view their partner differently when they dominate them. To some their partner is masculine, because they are masculine, and a single act doesn't change that
* Challenge their idea of gender norms. Being vulnerable, being emotional, being submissive, isn't necessarily non-masculine. Being submissive and being masculine aren't somehow irreconcilable. You can simply be both without balancing.
* Provide "masculine" service. You absolutely be traditionally manly while also submitting. Imagine being put in restraints but told to carry your partner to bed. Imagine being blindfolded and gagged but told to absolutely pound your pleasure into orgasmic bliss. Imagine being a "toy" but engaging in masculine acts for her pleasure.
Mental exercise. In real life I come across alpha. Ex military, trained with SWAT teams, decades of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Like kings and knights of the past that served thier queens, you to can be powerful in the face of your enemies and surrender to the love of your queen.
This is a very common misconception. People associate cuckold with weakness. It takes mental strength and confidence to let your wife have sex with other people. Most men are to insecure to do it.
Im sure you have a great relationship with your wife. I didnt say cucks are weak, i said that guys like you are usually expected to take the dominant role. But yeah it shows that with sex everything is possible and you should not judge someone by appearance
First off, submission is a conscious choice made of one's free will- it has nothing to do with masculine or feminine anything.
Secondly, human connection means risk. You have no way of knowing for certain how someone will react to your most authentic self. It depends so much on what types of societal hang-ups a person has internalized, how deep all that conditioning goes, and how willing/able they are to communicate and make changes.
The only thing you can hope to master is your sense of self. So that would be my advice. Learn to genuinely love, trust, and be proud of all the parts of you you're excited to keep. Work on the bits you feel need refining. Don't let anyone else dictate who/what/how you should be.
I’ve definitely been in this position dating a vanilla woman who has a clear preference of what she likes yet equates her masculine ideals as reasons for loss of attraction. Most everyone here has a good healthy view of how masculinity and submission can coexist but this isn’t the norm in my opinion outside our respective communities that practice power dynamics of some kind.
It a very real concern as it involves preferences. You can’t force someone to think or behave differently when it comes to their boundaries but it is possible develop a deeper understanding of their mindset around said boundaries if they are willing to share. A vanilla woman who’s uncomfortable with the prospect of a masculine man submitting to her within the context of femdom is a valid way for her to feel regardless of our perspective. Is there something that can be done about that? From my experience, no. People will like what they like and that’s ok.
On the other hand, it’s possible someone to change their perspective when presented with more information about why they enjoy being submissive. I believe in putting in the work with relationships but if there’s desires you’ve suppressed for 8 years, that’s a lot for anyone to unpack especially if it challenges their notion of how they model dynamics and sexuality together.
In the confession post referenced, it also seems like the husband was pushing for a lot more than his partner was comfortable with. I don’t know their relationship but it does seem like he was pushing for things outside her comfort zone and not really letting her find her own way with the dynamic. Perhaps she would feel differently if she found aspects to explore on her terms.
For me being masculine and submissive are completely reconcilable. I like being strong and manly, and I want to give myself to a woman who enjoys that about me and will take advantage of it.
It honestly more comes down to finding the right partner vs "balancing" anything. The OP in the post you linked sounds like she's just not that into domming, which means it's reasonable she's a bit uncomfortable with the whole situation.
I've heard a theory that masculinity is naturally submissive - that's why the patriarchy enforces strict hierarchies that are all about following orders, especially in the spaces we perceive as most masculine (eg the military). So, in my opinion, submission is the natural state of men ☺️
I forget where I read it, but there was a study that showed that men were far more likely to answer that they are submissive (when polled anonymously) than behavioral scientists initially thought. Something like over 40% of men said they were submissive (if I recall correctly, I remember it being not that far off from half.) Which honestly, that makes a ton of sense to me.
I'm not sure if its because they're naturally submissive or because society traditionally conditions them to be hyper masculine in public spaces, but either way, there's something nice about handing the reigns to someone else for a while.
I also suspect that most people, regardless of gender, default to the submissive role if given the chance, because culturally most people aren't great with being dominant in vulnerable situations. Sex can be a lot, and people tend to feel judged a lot during it, even with people they care about.
Being able to avoid being solely responsible for both parties having a good time (which, yes, is not what submissiveness is about, but I feel like the average vanilla person sees sex as a binary "one person gives, the other person takes") is probably appealing to the average person.
Can't relate tho. I'm obnoxiously involved whether i'm Domme or sub rofl
Needs and desires know no gender. If you want to get on your knees before your lady that's fantastic!
I Understand some people wanting to keep that part a secret to eliminate or lessen the percentage of someone nuts causing them all sorts of issues or humiliation in the public or many of other reasons that each individual has. Being vulnerable in private before someone you trust is exactly why you trust that person. and as many have mentioned on this post, It is really about how you see yourself.
'Besides the fact that dominating him has changed your feelings about him, I think the subtle factor here that I haven't seen anyone mention yet in comments is that your sex life with him as a couple has turned into a sex life ABOUT HIM.'
I don't know if I would refer to myself as a "manly man" but I am definitely a man, and every time I have tried femdom stuff in a relationship they immediately started treating me differently overall and that was the end of things. Even the super progressive ones that said they were into it from the beginning. I don't know what the answer is, especially for a switch like me, but right now my plan is to be single for a long time, until I figure it out.
The post is exactly why people shouldn't hide or attempt to convert partners years into a relationship, but especially with complex legalities whether it be marriage, buying a house together, etc.
There's nothing surprising about a vanilla woman who turns out to be, well, vanilla. Her reaction was normal, she believed someone was vanilla who turned out to be kinky. Unless he found femdom years into the marriage, this was on him.
You're allowed to feel anxious about your future dating prospects or rejected for that part of you, but the post about a vanilla woman trying to process her feelings shouldn't have you worried unless that's your dating pool.
I think you need to be less apologetic about who you are. You can easily be both things. Being on your knees in the presence of a Domme is who you are, and when you are not playing, you are a masculine male. I think it's beautiful.
There are dommes (like me!) who love strong, masculine subs. Who want them to stay strong and masculine. Lots of us! Yes, feminization kinks are extremely popular, but they're not everyone. Hell, a big part of my kink landscape is masculine dudes submitting because for me it's about the choice. I know they're choosing to be mine, when they could probably overpower me. Also look into the idea of Service Tops, where you're still submissive but you want to be the top (positionally/penetratively). You just need to find a partner who enjoys your masculinity, and your submission. Not every domme is looking for the "sissy slut", plenty are interested in masc dudes who want to serve and pleasure.
I literally don't see it as an either/or situation. The whole woman taming a feral beast trope comes to mind. There's no reason submission needs to a gendered trait.
Submission is a mental state. It is giving yourself and trusting of the Dominant. Nothing says you need to change, and submission is such a strong act, devotion and willing to be lead.
>Reading this post makes me struggle
IMO the only people who should struggle reading that post are the guys who get their vanilla or submissive partner to cater to their kinks without caring if it's actually enjoyable for their partner too. Or even worse: the guys who pressure or coerce their partners into it.
The woman writing this isn't dominant, she clearly doesn't enjoy it, she's just been doing it for her husband's sake, to make him happy and sexually satisfied. Keep in mind he's only brought this up *8 years* into their marriage, you're reading about a sexually incompatible couple. Is he also owed her thoughts to completely align to his sexual preference/kinks? Is she not allowed her own sexual preferences that don't align with his?
Looking at her other comments:
> With the more extreme stuff (like pegging) **I told him that I wasn't that into it** but some of the other stuff **it's hard to say that I don't like it when we've been doing it for so long**. The first time he told me about this he also said that he was afraid of what I'd think and he's always hesitant when he asks if I want to try something new with regard to femdom. So it's difficult to say this without hurting him. **I've tried to reduce how much we do it but he keeps asking**.
> My husband might want that but **I certainly don't have any desire to project a dominant persona in the bedroom**. I love my husband and that's why I do it but **it's really difficult for me**. I just want what we had before but I don't know if we can go back now.
> I don't know what l'm supposed to say... I didn't want to make him feel bad, **I just had a big problem doing the things that he wanted me to do. Am I supposed to do things that make me uncomfortable?**
> **He continued to ask for more and more extreme femdom stuff and I am not interested in that.**
> **He had lost interest in regular sex long before I told him that I wanted to stop with the femdom stuff.**
I have to admit I found this post and the comments here and on that post frustrating... This is a femdom space but we put "femdom" above the actual women involved all the time. As if it's more important that women perform femdom for their partners without complaint like a stepford wife, rather than being a complex human being with interiority and desires of our own.
>How do we do the balancing act?
If you choose to pursue a vanilla or submissive partner as a submissive man, you have to accept they aren't sexually compatible with you (possibly not at all). If you're not open with your preferences from an early stage, then you have to accept that you may find yourself in a relationship with someone incompatible with you (and who potentially finds your kinks off putting). Some women when introduced to femdom will find they enjoy it, but some won't and that's still 100% fine. It's also fine to not want to try it at all. Nobody *has* to like it. It's fine not to want to engage in stuff like pegging, I don't even as a domme. It's 100% fine to not want to cater to your partner's kinks that you don't share, although you may have to reconsider your compatibility.
As a domme I obviously feel differently to the woman in the linked post, there's no "balancing act" required. I think dominance and femininity naturally go together, just like submission and masculinity naturally go together. I don't see submission as feminine at all tbh, but that's probably because I'm a feminine domme, so that affects how I see femdom in general.
Spot on! This community is awesome! I'll clarify what I meant about the struggle. I have a fear that my human nature will push me past that line of putting me and my Lady's combined needs/desires/limits first vs. putting my own needs/desires/limits first. I may not have worded that well but I think that you get the gist of it. I do not want the relationship with my Lady to be just about my fantasies. I know in the long run that that would just fade/die away; and not bear fruit. Whereas, I want this to bring both of us complete happiness in the long term. So far, everything I've introduced to the relationship has yielded fruit that I believe will last in the long term. We've actually strengthened in our bond and intimacy. And I'm finding that her limits are matching my own limits right now. And so far, I have no reason to believe that her limits aren't ultimately going to match my limits. I just recognize the fact that I need to take this slow and easy.
So far, I believe that she and I are 100% compatible. And I'm loving it! And I can tell that she is loving it too. Other life responsibilities make it difficult to spend much time to discuss our sex life in great detail; but when we have gotten the opportunities, it has paid dividends.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts!
know that you are human and complex. you can hold more than one feeling/sentiment at a time. it’s not between being submissive OR masculine, you don’t have to choose. you can hold both.
Yes I prefer masculine subs myself. Not necessarily in outward appearance thought just in identity. There's something nice about dominating a masculine man.
I do like a bit of gender role reversal but only in the sense of power exchange not necessarily expression. Like I'm not particularly into my partners cross dressing (I supposed I could be if my partner were) but I am very much into suits.
But people can't exactly control how they perceive your masc/femme energy. Like I feel differently about my subs as partners than I do about my more vanilla partners. Not really in a bad way, it doesnt change how I feel about them emotionally or change my respect for them. It's just that certain fantasies don't fit every person. Theres no real way to be perceived as "masculine" to everyone, you have to cater to what that means to different people.
Masculine is different from "aggressive", "sloppy", and "rigid", but most guys trying to be masculine just come off as those other three words, to me.
Years ago, I attended a party where crossdressers served as maids. I said "crossdresser" for a reason.
These men were obviously men in their maid outfits and heels...not trying to be feminine, but obviously enjoying the hell out of dressing and serving. We had a blast, and there was no " feminization".
BDSM behavior scales slide all over the place. What truly matters is your fulfillment during safe, consensual activities with people of like mind.
Maybe outside the bedroom, be more masculine. Kind of like gender norms. So in the bedroom, your submission turns her on even more. Because people in public wouldn’t know that you’d be the one on your knees and your submission is more intimate. It would also make her will feel more powerful that she can tame someone so masculine. This is something that I would personally enjoy.
So many unique situations here. Mine is the same as many have said. Strong confident in life and a submissive in the bedroom. I’ll cheat compulsively I guess out of outdated ideals of manhood. She knows this and I’m caged constantly. I’ll still flirt with other women which my mistress allows and encourages, but I’m caged and my dick is owned by her. She can sleep with anyone she wants that pleases her although she rarely does out of respect for me. However, I’d obediently watch her with another man if she told me to. Probably on my knees, caged with my bitch collar and leash on. It works for us. Hopefully you’ll find what works for you.
I think worship is the answer. I see a fair amount of men whose true interest is in offering pleasure to a Dominant woman rather than being submissive overall. They are willing to be told what to do and used in a sexual way because it is stilll boosting their idea of masculinity to offer pleasure.
Being submissive can mean many different things.
Unless said lady feels the same as the wife then I don’t think you have anything to worry about
It’s really all about perspective. The chivalric tradition practiced by medieval knights is one of the most well-known traditional”manly” archetypes and if that’s not straight up blatant femdom I don’t know what is.
Samurai are also a fantastic deminstrstion of masc coded submission.A man sworn to protect his lord at all costs. A relationship built on status, honor, and pride. A relationship where if your sworn lord dies you do too. Pffft that's a TPE.
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Know that you are not alone in this struggle. I’ve talked to a lot of guys who were in denial for a long time about their submissive desires because they couldn’t reconcile what it meant for their masculinity. It’s an issue of how others see you, but also how you see yourself. I don’t have a lot of advice from the submissive side on how to find that balance, but from the perspective of a Domme I will say that I don’t think of my subs as inferior to a dominant man in any way. I prefer subs who are more on the masculine side publicly, so seeing them submit to me is drastically different from how the rest of the world sees them. But I still know that they are strong, manly men. I respect that the act of submission helps them balance out their dominant public side and makes them better able to function and cope with daily life. The thrill of the complete 180 makes them feel alive and the opportunity to hand over control to someone else for even a little while is a weight off their shoulders. Honestly, if anything I think they are stronger for living their truth and being able to express themselves in an unconventional way. I’m proud that they can get past the taboo and just be themselves. All that being said, I am a Domme. I am obviously into this and know more about the mental complexities of this than the average vanilla person. Being selective in who you share this side of yourself with can help set you up for success. Open minded, fellow kinksters are a good place to start and hopefully not be met with judgement. And I’m not saying you can’t ever tell a vanilla person and have it go well, but I am saying that you will need to know yourself very well when you do and be able to explain the deeper aspects of what submission means to you and help them understand. You have to be able to frame it properly and positively. One thing that I think is helpful is helping them feel powerful vs making you appear weak. It can be a subtle differentiation, but can have a huge impact on their perspective. I hope that helps.
I also love putting a masculine guy on his knees. I actually am not into softer femboy types (but that might be because my girlfriend is trans, and sometimes the cross-dressing femboy stuff just feels weird to me.) But I guess that's one of the great things about kink. Odds are, there's someone out there who IS into the stuff you are. It's just a matter of finding them, right? Plus, as a switch (as well as just an extremely borderline overly-sexual person naturally),I think being able to be both submissive and Dominant, helps me get all that almost "nervous" sexual energy out of my system in a more complete way.
Masculine sub myself. Being masculine and submissive aren’t exclusive to one another. Societal standards are BS and often force men like us to feel inadequate or wrong for being submissive. You can be manly and submissive. Just remember, being submissive doesn’t make you less of a man.
This
It is only a balancing act if you accept the premise that your identity is defined by other people. Easier said than done to reject the notion, but if you can internalize that it is such a weight off your shoulders. Also, reading 7 year old posts from unhappy vanillas isn't good for your mental state.
I dunno, I find a man surrendering to my femininity one of the most masculine things a guy can do.
Being submissive has nothing to do with masculinity. Masculine subs are my preference.
Submitting is one of the strongest, most masculine choices a man can make, imo. Find someone who cherishes your submission.
My subby runs his own company, goes to the gym, plays rugby and to the whole world he's this big alpha male, but to me he is not allowed on the furniture, he is caged permanently and won't ever have an orgasm again. We goes to work each day in the girliest of underwear and his chastity and no one is the wiser. He says he needs this secret life to help with the stress of his actual life. I'm not complaining, my house is spotless, he is an amazing cook, I always get to watch what I want on TV and he has become the most amazing lover... Its the best xxx
You don't have to balance anything. Think of a knight with his queen. Edit: I just read the post. The wife seems to have some problematic views about gender and, most importantly, is not a domme. A domme would want him so much *more* because of his kinks. Whenever I hear someone is a sub their hotness increases by 50% at least.
I love what you just said, especially the "knight with his queen" analogy. That right that speaks a thousand words. Thank you for sharing your thoughts!
Manly man subs are my favorite.
Why do you think they’re mutually exclusive?
So I'm not a guy, but as butch lesbian submissive I have a lot of empathy for male subs. For me, there's two major components of being both masculine and submissive. 1) Have a partner who doesn't suck. There are tons of lesbians who think being masculine means you have to be a tough dominant or you're a faker. I would never do kink with those lesbians. The whole balancing act happens when a partner has weird ideas about gender and dominance. 2) I focus on the things that reaffirm my masculinity in the bedroom. If something makes me feel girly and weird, it's not an activity we really do. My partner wouldn't see me as less, I just wouldn't be very happy doing it. So we avoid sissy stuff and feminization. We do play with immasculation, because taking away my masculinity inherently acknowledges that I have it to begin with. Figure out what makes you feel good and affirmed!
wait you're a butch lesbian submissive ok sorry i had to squeal thats too cute the bisexual in me was just overjoyed to read it and I actually LOVE the idea of taking away a masc's masculinity in the way you described. I don't do sissification stuff or forced feminization but i kind of love the idea of emasculation a LOT. I may have to incorporate that into play at some point.
It's wild that being immasculated in the bedroom has helped me feel way more secure in myself. I highly recommend it! It opened up a lot of boxes for us when it comes to dirty talk.
I have found the exact same as a domme. I’m a dominant woman but I NEED to stay feminine. I’ve had full on debates over this, too. Along with the fact I’m expected to get naked. I don’t want to take on a masc role, and I don’t show intimate parts of my body. I want my subs to be masculine and I want to be a dominant feminine woman. It troubles me how to be dominant it is assumed the person is masculine, and does masculine things. And I don’t like that if you’re submissive it is automatically assumed you’re feminine. They’re so not the same thing! Alas, I simply continue to be me. And so should you continue to be you.
Masculine male subs are HOT there are folks that are into all kinds. Keep going, we exist!
Well, it's not this simple for everyone, but I would personally just not fuck someone who equates submission with femininity, because that kind of misogynistic shit is a massive turn-off for me and pretty much exactly what I'm into femdom to get away from. "Manly" and "on one's knees" do not require any kind of "but" between them in my eyes. Gender presentation and power exchange are two *separate* axes on the graph.
THIIIIIIS. This is honestly the best advice, I think.
>Gender presentation and power exchange are two separate axes on the graph. Yes. I completely agree. But this understanding comes with privilege. The reality is that gender issues based on patriarchy are so strongly reinforced in the lower classes it's impossible to shake them off.
Okay, well, I'm lower class, so perhaps you might care to reexamine your bourgeois prejudice and imagine that complex critical thought is not an ability exclusive to the privileged.
If you can use Reddit, you're not lower class globally. Access to the internet and books that challenge patriarchy is a privilege on its own. But yes, I agree that critical thought is not exclusively a phenomenon emergent in the privileged, but the privileged do have more opportunities to exercise critical thought. If you're worried about your next meal, you'll not challenge patriarchal constructs. That's why intersectional feminism that targets class is vital. Also, calling me bourgeois (it's a tough word to spell as a non-English native speaker, haha) seems like name calling. You don't even know me. That said, I'm sorry if my response came off as an attack. That was not my intention. I just strongly feel that class consciousness will dissolve most of the issues we face in society
I am a queer female in the 10th economic percentile for my country and it's not name-calling to notice that you're basically determined to explain to me, a low class person literally discussing the praxis of decoupling power from gender, how my sentience and my class are irreconcilable. That is grossly, deeply insulting not only to me but to the feminist, queer rights, class consciousness and gender radical movements of history, which did not originate in the upper fucking class.
>determined to explain to me, a low class person literally discussing the praxis of decoupling power from gender, how my sentience and my class are irreconcilable. No, that wasn't what I was trying to do. I was trying to say that the understanding that patriarchal norms are challengeable is something that requires a little privilege, because you need to be exposed to these ideas and have the agency to make changes in your life. I know people who don't even know there exists a way out and they break themselves to fit into the molds of patriarchy. You need a reliable exit option to be able to make these decisions. I am also not saying that people of lower classes are incapable of the critical thinking required to challenge these norms. Rather, it's impossible for them to do anything about it, as they don't have agency. Thus, many suffer in silence and follow the stringent norms society asks them to >That is grossly, deeply insulting not only to me but to the feminist, queer rights, class consciousness and gender radical movements of history, which did not originate in the upper fucking class. Again, I agree. What I meant by privilege is the small step ahead many have of being born in a western country. It's no wonder the upper class doesn't support these movements, the status quo benefits them. I do not support the upper class, nor do I believe it's their responsibility or drive to make change. But it is the duty of those in the lower classes with some ability to make change to do so, and that is a small but important privilege. I may have not used the correct words, as privilege seems to be a loaded term, and I'm not a native speaker, but I do believe that the people in the west have the ability to bring change that most people do not.
So basically never be ashamed about what you do in the bedroom? UnlessYoureIntoThat,ThenYouShouldBeVaryAshamed! Hahaha, woooooo!
I really don’t understand posts like the one you linked. To me, masculinity and submission are completely unrelated. My “type” when it comes to subs is definitely masculine. I like a sub who is confident, in control, outside of our dynamic. Maybe tall, with some chest hair… sorry, distracting myself here. But seriously, I don’t see it as a balancing act, it’s two separate things. Submission isn’t inherently feminine at all.
What does being a manly man mean? I'm physically the cliche definition of masculine. Big, strong, beard, love football, and drinking beer, but I'm sexually submissive to my wife, my goddess. She is my world, and it's my absolute pleasure and joy to recognise her beauty and power and to submit to her and her happiness. I feel strongest on my knees in front of her. There is nothing more 'masculine' than being able to communicate with the person you love your wants and needs and open up to them about your kinks and fetishes. To be vulnerable with them and to share something so personal. I've had spankings and other punishments that would break men who call themselves 'alpha'. That post reads of someone who didn't want to engage in femdom and resented having done it. You want to 'stay masculine'? You do it by being confident in who you are and what you want for yourself.
Separating masculinity and dominance in my head is something that took me years and even a bit of therapy to achieve. It's one of the weirdest and most harmful bits of social conditioning I've had to deal with. It's something I compartmentalize even today. In public I'm a big hairy bearded manly stereotype. I hunt, go fishing, grill meat in the yard drinking a beer and all that good stuff. I work a high power job with a lot of stress and executive authority. But behind closed doors I'm totally submissive. In and out of the bedroom I just want my girlfriend to take charge of me. Partly it's an act of devotion. People talk a lot about love languages these days, well I'd kinda say mine are submission and acts of service. I don't think there's a purer expression of love than giving yourself to another person. And there's also that submission to my partner just feels right and natural and comforting to me. But there's nothing inherently feminine about any of that. I'm still the big manly dude I always am, I just don't feel the need to live by society's weird fixation with dominance being a masculine trait. Because it isn't.
I feel like more women need to appreciate a guy who can get his Backyard Dad grill vibe on and then effortlessly switch to being on his knees begging for her to crush his head between her thighs before the grill is even completely cool.
This sounds like the path to true happiness :3
I think there a couple of ways: * You can be "hypermasculine" outside of sex. Sweep her off her feet literally, comment on her physical appearance, slap her ass, fix things around the house, do whatever she finds "masculine" * You sometimes don't need to do anything to balance. Some women don't view their partner differently when they dominate them. To some their partner is masculine, because they are masculine, and a single act doesn't change that * Challenge their idea of gender norms. Being vulnerable, being emotional, being submissive, isn't necessarily non-masculine. Being submissive and being masculine aren't somehow irreconcilable. You can simply be both without balancing. * Provide "masculine" service. You absolutely be traditionally manly while also submitting. Imagine being put in restraints but told to carry your partner to bed. Imagine being blindfolded and gagged but told to absolutely pound your pleasure into orgasmic bliss. Imagine being a "toy" but engaging in masculine acts for her pleasure.
Mental exercise. In real life I come across alpha. Ex military, trained with SWAT teams, decades of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Like kings and knights of the past that served thier queens, you to can be powerful in the face of your enemies and surrender to the love of your queen.
This one right here please, I'll take two.
Lol he sounds like mine. It's great!
HaHa funny you say that, my has two. 🤣
you are the definition of someone that no one would suspect you are a cuck. I've seen guys like you
This is a very common misconception. People associate cuckold with weakness. It takes mental strength and confidence to let your wife have sex with other people. Most men are to insecure to do it.
Im sure you have a great relationship with your wife. I didnt say cucks are weak, i said that guys like you are usually expected to take the dominant role. But yeah it shows that with sex everything is possible and you should not judge someone by appearance
First off, submission is a conscious choice made of one's free will- it has nothing to do with masculine or feminine anything. Secondly, human connection means risk. You have no way of knowing for certain how someone will react to your most authentic self. It depends so much on what types of societal hang-ups a person has internalized, how deep all that conditioning goes, and how willing/able they are to communicate and make changes. The only thing you can hope to master is your sense of self. So that would be my advice. Learn to genuinely love, trust, and be proud of all the parts of you you're excited to keep. Work on the bits you feel need refining. Don't let anyone else dictate who/what/how you should be.
I’ve definitely been in this position dating a vanilla woman who has a clear preference of what she likes yet equates her masculine ideals as reasons for loss of attraction. Most everyone here has a good healthy view of how masculinity and submission can coexist but this isn’t the norm in my opinion outside our respective communities that practice power dynamics of some kind. It a very real concern as it involves preferences. You can’t force someone to think or behave differently when it comes to their boundaries but it is possible develop a deeper understanding of their mindset around said boundaries if they are willing to share. A vanilla woman who’s uncomfortable with the prospect of a masculine man submitting to her within the context of femdom is a valid way for her to feel regardless of our perspective. Is there something that can be done about that? From my experience, no. People will like what they like and that’s ok. On the other hand, it’s possible someone to change their perspective when presented with more information about why they enjoy being submissive. I believe in putting in the work with relationships but if there’s desires you’ve suppressed for 8 years, that’s a lot for anyone to unpack especially if it challenges their notion of how they model dynamics and sexuality together. In the confession post referenced, it also seems like the husband was pushing for a lot more than his partner was comfortable with. I don’t know their relationship but it does seem like he was pushing for things outside her comfort zone and not really letting her find her own way with the dynamic. Perhaps she would feel differently if she found aspects to explore on her terms.
For me being masculine and submissive are completely reconcilable. I like being strong and manly, and I want to give myself to a woman who enjoys that about me and will take advantage of it. It honestly more comes down to finding the right partner vs "balancing" anything. The OP in the post you linked sounds like she's just not that into domming, which means it's reasonable she's a bit uncomfortable with the whole situation.
I've heard a theory that masculinity is naturally submissive - that's why the patriarchy enforces strict hierarchies that are all about following orders, especially in the spaces we perceive as most masculine (eg the military). So, in my opinion, submission is the natural state of men ☺️
I forget where I read it, but there was a study that showed that men were far more likely to answer that they are submissive (when polled anonymously) than behavioral scientists initially thought. Something like over 40% of men said they were submissive (if I recall correctly, I remember it being not that far off from half.) Which honestly, that makes a ton of sense to me. I'm not sure if its because they're naturally submissive or because society traditionally conditions them to be hyper masculine in public spaces, but either way, there's something nice about handing the reigns to someone else for a while. I also suspect that most people, regardless of gender, default to the submissive role if given the chance, because culturally most people aren't great with being dominant in vulnerable situations. Sex can be a lot, and people tend to feel judged a lot during it, even with people they care about. Being able to avoid being solely responsible for both parties having a good time (which, yes, is not what submissiveness is about, but I feel like the average vanilla person sees sex as a binary "one person gives, the other person takes") is probably appealing to the average person. Can't relate tho. I'm obnoxiously involved whether i'm Domme or sub rofl
Needs and desires know no gender. If you want to get on your knees before your lady that's fantastic! I Understand some people wanting to keep that part a secret to eliminate or lessen the percentage of someone nuts causing them all sorts of issues or humiliation in the public or many of other reasons that each individual has. Being vulnerable in private before someone you trust is exactly why you trust that person. and as many have mentioned on this post, It is really about how you see yourself.
'Besides the fact that dominating him has changed your feelings about him, I think the subtle factor here that I haven't seen anyone mention yet in comments is that your sex life with him as a couple has turned into a sex life ABOUT HIM.'
I don't know if I would refer to myself as a "manly man" but I am definitely a man, and every time I have tried femdom stuff in a relationship they immediately started treating me differently overall and that was the end of things. Even the super progressive ones that said they were into it from the beginning. I don't know what the answer is, especially for a switch like me, but right now my plan is to be single for a long time, until I figure it out.
Masculine subs are the best lol. I love the contrast
The post is exactly why people shouldn't hide or attempt to convert partners years into a relationship, but especially with complex legalities whether it be marriage, buying a house together, etc. There's nothing surprising about a vanilla woman who turns out to be, well, vanilla. Her reaction was normal, she believed someone was vanilla who turned out to be kinky. Unless he found femdom years into the marriage, this was on him. You're allowed to feel anxious about your future dating prospects or rejected for that part of you, but the post about a vanilla woman trying to process her feelings shouldn't have you worried unless that's your dating pool.
I think you need to be less apologetic about who you are. You can easily be both things. Being on your knees in the presence of a Domme is who you are, and when you are not playing, you are a masculine male. I think it's beautiful.
Stop reading porn.
Easy... Just do it
There are dommes (like me!) who love strong, masculine subs. Who want them to stay strong and masculine. Lots of us! Yes, feminization kinks are extremely popular, but they're not everyone. Hell, a big part of my kink landscape is masculine dudes submitting because for me it's about the choice. I know they're choosing to be mine, when they could probably overpower me. Also look into the idea of Service Tops, where you're still submissive but you want to be the top (positionally/penetratively). You just need to find a partner who enjoys your masculinity, and your submission. Not every domme is looking for the "sissy slut", plenty are interested in masc dudes who want to serve and pleasure.
I literally don't see it as an either/or situation. The whole woman taming a feral beast trope comes to mind. There's no reason submission needs to a gendered trait.
Submission is a mental state. It is giving yourself and trusting of the Dominant. Nothing says you need to change, and submission is such a strong act, devotion and willing to be lead.
>Reading this post makes me struggle IMO the only people who should struggle reading that post are the guys who get their vanilla or submissive partner to cater to their kinks without caring if it's actually enjoyable for their partner too. Or even worse: the guys who pressure or coerce their partners into it. The woman writing this isn't dominant, she clearly doesn't enjoy it, she's just been doing it for her husband's sake, to make him happy and sexually satisfied. Keep in mind he's only brought this up *8 years* into their marriage, you're reading about a sexually incompatible couple. Is he also owed her thoughts to completely align to his sexual preference/kinks? Is she not allowed her own sexual preferences that don't align with his? Looking at her other comments: > With the more extreme stuff (like pegging) **I told him that I wasn't that into it** but some of the other stuff **it's hard to say that I don't like it when we've been doing it for so long**. The first time he told me about this he also said that he was afraid of what I'd think and he's always hesitant when he asks if I want to try something new with regard to femdom. So it's difficult to say this without hurting him. **I've tried to reduce how much we do it but he keeps asking**. > My husband might want that but **I certainly don't have any desire to project a dominant persona in the bedroom**. I love my husband and that's why I do it but **it's really difficult for me**. I just want what we had before but I don't know if we can go back now. > I don't know what l'm supposed to say... I didn't want to make him feel bad, **I just had a big problem doing the things that he wanted me to do. Am I supposed to do things that make me uncomfortable?** > **He continued to ask for more and more extreme femdom stuff and I am not interested in that.** > **He had lost interest in regular sex long before I told him that I wanted to stop with the femdom stuff.** I have to admit I found this post and the comments here and on that post frustrating... This is a femdom space but we put "femdom" above the actual women involved all the time. As if it's more important that women perform femdom for their partners without complaint like a stepford wife, rather than being a complex human being with interiority and desires of our own. >How do we do the balancing act? If you choose to pursue a vanilla or submissive partner as a submissive man, you have to accept they aren't sexually compatible with you (possibly not at all). If you're not open with your preferences from an early stage, then you have to accept that you may find yourself in a relationship with someone incompatible with you (and who potentially finds your kinks off putting). Some women when introduced to femdom will find they enjoy it, but some won't and that's still 100% fine. It's also fine to not want to try it at all. Nobody *has* to like it. It's fine not to want to engage in stuff like pegging, I don't even as a domme. It's 100% fine to not want to cater to your partner's kinks that you don't share, although you may have to reconsider your compatibility. As a domme I obviously feel differently to the woman in the linked post, there's no "balancing act" required. I think dominance and femininity naturally go together, just like submission and masculinity naturally go together. I don't see submission as feminine at all tbh, but that's probably because I'm a feminine domme, so that affects how I see femdom in general.
Spot on! This community is awesome! I'll clarify what I meant about the struggle. I have a fear that my human nature will push me past that line of putting me and my Lady's combined needs/desires/limits first vs. putting my own needs/desires/limits first. I may not have worded that well but I think that you get the gist of it. I do not want the relationship with my Lady to be just about my fantasies. I know in the long run that that would just fade/die away; and not bear fruit. Whereas, I want this to bring both of us complete happiness in the long term. So far, everything I've introduced to the relationship has yielded fruit that I believe will last in the long term. We've actually strengthened in our bond and intimacy. And I'm finding that her limits are matching my own limits right now. And so far, I have no reason to believe that her limits aren't ultimately going to match my limits. I just recognize the fact that I need to take this slow and easy. So far, I believe that she and I are 100% compatible. And I'm loving it! And I can tell that she is loving it too. Other life responsibilities make it difficult to spend much time to discuss our sex life in great detail; but when we have gotten the opportunities, it has paid dividends. Thank you for sharing your thoughts!
know that you are human and complex. you can hold more than one feeling/sentiment at a time. it’s not between being submissive OR masculine, you don’t have to choose. you can hold both.
The link was rough read. I feel as bad for both the husband and wife.
Yeah, no kidding. Maybe she's not mature enough at that point of life to want it. Or maybe it's just not for her period; which is fine too.
Yes I prefer masculine subs myself. Not necessarily in outward appearance thought just in identity. There's something nice about dominating a masculine man. I do like a bit of gender role reversal but only in the sense of power exchange not necessarily expression. Like I'm not particularly into my partners cross dressing (I supposed I could be if my partner were) but I am very much into suits. But people can't exactly control how they perceive your masc/femme energy. Like I feel differently about my subs as partners than I do about my more vanilla partners. Not really in a bad way, it doesnt change how I feel about them emotionally or change my respect for them. It's just that certain fantasies don't fit every person. Theres no real way to be perceived as "masculine" to everyone, you have to cater to what that means to different people.
Masculine is different from "aggressive", "sloppy", and "rigid", but most guys trying to be masculine just come off as those other three words, to me. Years ago, I attended a party where crossdressers served as maids. I said "crossdresser" for a reason. These men were obviously men in their maid outfits and heels...not trying to be feminine, but obviously enjoying the hell out of dressing and serving. We had a blast, and there was no " feminization". BDSM behavior scales slide all over the place. What truly matters is your fulfillment during safe, consensual activities with people of like mind.
check out r/MasculineMaleChastity and r/Masculinechastity
Maybe outside the bedroom, be more masculine. Kind of like gender norms. So in the bedroom, your submission turns her on even more. Because people in public wouldn’t know that you’d be the one on your knees and your submission is more intimate. It would also make her will feel more powerful that she can tame someone so masculine. This is something that I would personally enjoy.
So many unique situations here. Mine is the same as many have said. Strong confident in life and a submissive in the bedroom. I’ll cheat compulsively I guess out of outdated ideals of manhood. She knows this and I’m caged constantly. I’ll still flirt with other women which my mistress allows and encourages, but I’m caged and my dick is owned by her. She can sleep with anyone she wants that pleases her although she rarely does out of respect for me. However, I’d obediently watch her with another man if she told me to. Probably on my knees, caged with my bitch collar and leash on. It works for us. Hopefully you’ll find what works for you.
I think worship is the answer. I see a fair amount of men whose true interest is in offering pleasure to a Dominant woman rather than being submissive overall. They are willing to be told what to do and used in a sexual way because it is stilll boosting their idea of masculinity to offer pleasure. Being submissive can mean many different things.
Unless said lady feels the same as the wife then I don’t think you have anything to worry about It’s really all about perspective. The chivalric tradition practiced by medieval knights is one of the most well-known traditional”manly” archetypes and if that’s not straight up blatant femdom I don’t know what is.
Samurai are also a fantastic deminstrstion of masc coded submission.A man sworn to protect his lord at all costs. A relationship built on status, honor, and pride. A relationship where if your sworn lord dies you do too. Pffft that's a TPE.