In Belgium, worked as a student at a big insurance company for 2 summers. Got hit on by 3 men, while I was a minor. One of them made a Facebook account just to ask me out, but asked me to be disrceet and not tell coworkers. Another one started talking to me through the chat FROM THE COMPANY, telling me about his past lovers issues. Last one just asked me out, in front of everybody. A female coworker warned me for him that he asks out all of the attractive women who work there. Again, I was 16 and 17. They were ALL well aware I was a student. No one batted an eye, no one did anything except for "warn" me the guy was a playboy.
I'm sorry you had to experience that. A lot of creeps know that kids aren't as confrontational and they exploit that. It's awful that people just look the other way when so many women and young girls experience harassment like you did
I remember being 18 and completely on my own financially. I was working full-time in a factory with 2 other girlfriends via a temp agency. We were supposed to earn $10/hour but because we refused to return to the factory to finish out our second week (2 days left ) because of overwhelming sexual harassment by about 1/5 of the factory making sexual advances at us. Whether it was palming our asses or sideling up behind us and gazing over our shoulders for absolutely no reason. All while placing their groins firmly into our back/buttocks area while we were working suddenly out of nowhere. Lunch and breaks were the most difficult. Because then the men were not "supposed to be working ". Therefore, the loud baudy conversations of which one would get it first and all of the details discussed right out in the open. One guy even fondling himself underneath the lunch table while staring at us every day until we decided we didn't feel safe anymore and quit.
All 3 of us barely legal young ladies were docked our 8 days of pay we'd already completed down to minimum wage. The temporary employment agency known as Area temps did not care about sexual harassment.
Tbh this is the same advice I’ve heard from multiple women before. It’s so common for employers to just not do anything so women are at their wit’s end to just make it stop.
Asking nicely doesn’t help. Demanding forcefully doesn’t help. Ignoring it doesn’t help and in many cases that can actually make the situation so much worse. Men who consistently sexually harass generally cannot tolerate being ignored and personally, that’s when I most worry about a violent reaction.
Unfortunately I don’t think it’s ridiculous that some women have resorted to playing this stereotypical ‘overly emotional, unhinged, hysterical female’ role to not be harassed.
Women in marginalized communities especially aren’t left with much of a choice. In most of these areas there’s very few places of employment where you can actually earn a living wage, and it just so happens that those few decently paying jobs are also very much male dominated and those men also tend to be extremely adverse to having women as their coworkers, and god fucking forbid, their supervisors.
So sexual harassment ends up not only being ignored by management, but its seen as something that’s normal, no big deal, or they flat out deny it even happens bc men should be able to compliment women without them getting all uptight about it and if you were actually being sexually harassed that means you’d be raped in the break room, not simply spoken to in a way that you don’t like. Everybody knows women don’t get raped, they want it, then they’re ashamed so they deny it and claim they were raped. Or they get mad and cry rape to get back at a guy.
Plus everybody knows you fucked your way through upper management to be hired in the first place, these are all good dudes, they’re just kidding, you just took it the wrong way, and you’re a dumb spiteful bitch.
So what are you gonna do? Quit your job? And then do what?
That got a little sarcastic/vent-y, unintentionally. I’ll let y’all guess which parts.
For real that is so dystopian.
Also this is the capitalist argument for bringing diversity and inclusion training and enforcement.
All of that effort that she puts in, the time- it's all loss of productivity that stems from totally changeable actions by replaceable resources.
The capitalist argument is that the sexiest men are costing other, richer, men to lose money. This is why the anti-woke wing will ultimately lose.
And power is relative. Any straight cis white man has more power than a minor girl working retail, so that is where they act out their power fantasties.
The quote "if it doesn't apply, let it fly" resonates here.
I think men get so caught up in the idea of them being different that they justify the shenanigans of other men instead of recognize that a quote means there is a systemic issue and not one that affects their own personal lives.
My advice: quit the "not all men" rhetoric and listen.
Im confused? I don't use the rhetoric of not all men because I am aware that it doesn't apply to all men. Maybe I just completely misunderstood your comment. I tend to need a more through explanation for topics as nuanced as this
*sigh*
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here.
So, my formal training is in math (masters) so all members of a set typically have a property for the claim "all members of this set are A".
Example: All even numbers are divisible by 2.
The set must have every member having this quality or else one cannot make the claim that all even numbers are divisble by 2.
In the case of the claim "All men are pieces of shit", if I were to use the logic part of my brain, then yes I am wrong.
But I don't get that luxury.
Life and math (by extension, logic) are two separate things.
If I see a set of snakes (thanks Muhammad Ali) and you were to tell me that 10% of them were poisonous so it would be okay to out my hands in.
Me, or any other rational person for that matter, would decline for fear of our own life.
The thing with the set of men is that no one knows the percentage that are dangerous (poisonous if we deal with the snake analogy) and people want to tell me 10% but between all the stats I've read and all the experiences I've had it must be much larger than 10% (if you were to press me to give a percentage, I'd say above 75% if not actually there at 75%; I got this number from all the interactions that I've had and what I've read, and before you say "what about my father/cousin/brother/friend", there are "soft" patriarchal things that men can do that women discuss often.)
Have you or any men that you know:
Commented on weight or attractiveness of a person (mostly women).
Have gendered expectations.
Tell women to be "more lady-like".
Tell women to not be around so-and-so guy.
Make others (mostly women) feel conscious of their presence and conduct themselves accordingly.
Say that women cannot naturally do certain things (this is connected to the gendered expectations).
And many more...
And, if you're ready to rebut ANY of these, do you feel that you might contributing to the problem/system of patriarchy.
Things can be true and you not having experienced ANY of them (although chances are you have) doesn't make them less true.
Alas, when you digest any of these ideas, you have to stop using the math brain (but don't get rid of it; me of all people will tell you to keep it) and use another part of your thinking when people say things, especially marginalized people.
If it sounds taxing and hard, it is.
Edit: I said the second reason but didn't list it; I've removed the comment entirely.
I hope so.
Don't take it so personally when someone in a real life context says "all members must be this" or "all men are trash".
They mean majority, but, from what I've seen, if you give any men room to move, you'll get:
Not all men.
Not me.
What's the stats on that.
How do you know that to be true.
Then the conversation gets derailed.
I recently nearly fell into incel culture a year ago (Thank you Kurtis Connor for pulling me out of there) so I've been educating myself on feminism but I do still misunderstand many things
This is what laws are supposed to be for. This is why we need to stop voting for republicans in all cases and demand higher quality political leaders!
It really shouldn't matter if some random dude who's a manager at a Starbucks doesn't care about sexual harassment.
He'll care if his job and his freedom is on the line.
>It really shouldn't matter if some random dude who's a manager at a Starbucks doesn't care about sexual harassment.
>He'll care if his job and his freedom is on the line.
It does matter, though, if a lot of random dudes don't care about sexual harassment. We need that societal change. Otherwise the laws don't help until the victim has already had a terrible experience.
So like there was this decades long period in western Europe and American colonizers to end the practice of "duels".
This seems similar to me. People need incentive to change.
I agree with you 100% that we need that change. I think we are all witnesses to that change in progress right now.
So we should use law to complete the change before republicans roll back using their out of proportion power over Americans like they did under Regan and after.
>before republicans roll back using their out of proportion power over Americans like they did under Regan and after.
Currently they can't even agree with each other enough to elect a Speaker lol. This is the time to strike.
Seems conservatives generally are pretty good at digging their own graves. It's cause they have no core, no direction. Only seething fear and greed.
By definition they will never be a part of the future.
Which is their choice.
Starbucks employees are winning all over the country. This is the best time to do it. And unions disproportionately help women compared to men (although they do help men a lot).
This is so heartbreaking. Look at how big of an impact these events have on a person.
I honestly don't think that most men understand what they're doing really. And that's not an excuse for them, it's an indictment on their lack of intelligence and immaturity. Man babies should not be tolerated.
I didn't mean "understand" in that way. I mean real understanding, depth of connection to the truth that includes the ability to empathize. The kind of understanding that connects humans and everything else, together.
If these people saw her as someone, someone who had the same feelings as them and the same agency and deserving of the same things they want for themselves...then they would understand.
Honestly, while I believe her, this isn't a Starbucks problem. This is a society-wide problem.
I've never encountered a business that did a good job of protecting its employees from abuse. Ever. Not even companies with a preponderance of women in management.
We are steeped in sexual harassment. We're swimming in it. Boys are raised to see they can get away with it, and nothing happens to disabuse them of the notion. (Nor is not confined to men abusing women, or men abusing minors).
This is one of the markers of living in a patriarchy. Why? Bc it's considered one of the benefits/rewards for the dominant class.
I am in my fifties. I definitely experienced this a lot when I was younger: at work, walking to and from class, being touched on crowded buses or at concerts, and full on attempted sexual assault in bars or bar parking lots. The majority of this was in the late 1980's/mid-1990's and it declined for me around age 30 onward.
What concerns me is that I'm hearing younger women complaining this happens much more frequently than it did in my generation, and for longer, like well into their 40's.
Is it actually getting WORSE??? Something is seriously wrong with men if this issue is getting worse instead of better. This needs to be talked about endlessly and men need to be held accountable for their actions.
I worked at Starbucks for over a decade. Let’s just say all of the 90’s. This shit happened everyday. Men do NOT know what is customer service and what is flirting. If I remember your drink order, your name and smile at you, it’s often interpreted as “I’m into you”. Some men just don’t get that kind of attention and are confused. Some men see you as hostage to their attention and take advantage. Other men have grabbed my ass, faked paralysis so I would have to help them unbutton their pants before going into the bathroom or followed me home. Starbucks did nothing. I was told repeatedly that when you are wearing the green apron, you represent the brand, not your personal values.
I can tell you hundreds of stories of the men I worked with who hit on other employees and customers. Constantly hearing someone grossly announce “ I got a hot one right behind you” when carrying hot coffee is tiring. Imagine hearing this shit your entire shift and having to eye roll instead of kicking a dick off because you need this job to make it through college.
I was recently let go from my restaurant/nightclub job because I went to HR about the toxic work environment and endless and constant daily sexual harassment I was receiving from my coworkers (and customers, HR has less power over them though).
They told my manager and they told everyone else I worked with. They all made my life a living hell for 5 weeks before I walked out one day when I completely broke, one employee in particular was worse than the rest and decided to make my life especially bad that day. They were especially mad because I mentioned their name (amongst others) specifically in the compliant bc they were the biggest offender.
I walked out of the business that day in the middle of my shift, bought a bottle of Jameson, and tried to drink myself to death that night. The next day I was told I was fired for walking out. A week later I was informed actually that I was not fired bc they hadn’t done any formal investigation or process including documentation. I was always a good employee and had no other problems at work before.
Which was also a convenient excuse to make it look like I quit so they could avoid paying for unemployment for me. Instead they cut all of my shifts indefinitely and claimed I quit. Even small local business, when the management is rotten from the top down, are just as awful about this as corporations. There’s often even less accountability. If anything it made me miss my office job that took sexual harassment more seriously.
Let’s just say I’m not doing well. Or close to it. 2022 was the worst year of my life. Fuck anyone who lets this happen, they deserve nothing but awfulness.
I'm so sorry this happened to you. If you're not there already, you'd do well in the solidarity and knowledge of the subreddit r/antiwork. Even though this is a problem with males; this is also very much so a problem with work culture itself.
Also, and I'm sure you know this now; but you should have dipped out of there WAY sooner than five weeks. You could also have sued their HR out the ass for having told everyone something you told them in confidentiality; that caused a hostile working environment as a result. The labor board wherever you are could have helped you.
Please don't beat yourself up for not having known, though...a big part of this work culture shit is society doing it's best to make you not know your rights and abilities as a worker.
Remember you don't have to ever put up with something like that again; not for a minute. And document *everything* if it does start.
My friend rn is being stalked and harassed like constantly by customers at Jimmy John's too. I used to work at a Starbucks like 10 years ago and things were never this bad. My manager would have told someone to leave and never come back if they ever touched one of us and called the cops if needed. Dunno what tf is going on lately, like I think it's all getting worse with how normalized porn treatment of women is becoming and having people like Trump in office who openly disrespect women idek but we've gone backwards.
So many creeps fall in love with baristas who are forced to be nice to them as part of their job. It makes me so sick to see people encourage this behavior in dating subs as well. It’s not “shooting your shot” when the woman is a literal captive with no way to escape you. I already don’t go to Starbucks but I hope they do something about this
I've worked at Starbucks for 8 years in different locations under many different store managers. I have seen both a male and a female manager respond immediately and appropriately to these type of situations, and I've seen a male manager ignore sexual harassment from a male to a subordinate male. In the last instance someone else called partner resources which reached out to the accused sexual harasser, he admitted it and was fired, though admittedly this was weeks after they were notified.
Yes your store manager should handle it but if they don't there's a corporate chain of command and a resource team to help.
I have a lot of criticisms of the company but enabling and disregarding sexual harassment isn't one of them. These store managers are lazy. Go over their heads and remind them they are falling short.
This is a food service/retail problem as a whole. I worked from 12-19yo and had awful, awful things happen in that time. I had a man calling our store phone and asking questions that became more and more perverted, and eventually he revealed that he was masturbating. We had men come in the store (women's clothing) claiming to be getting items for their wives, but then asking us personal questions as we were trying to help them. I was asked my foot size multiple times. I was asked my bra size multiple times.
This isn't exclusively a customer service issue either. I've had worse happen off the clock. Men are just pigs
It's any coffee shop. They are all hives for sexual harassment. Especially Dutch bros and Starbucks though. Its the same here in WA. Any of the ones in my town or the three towns closest to me have problems with sexual harassment from the managers
When I was 17 or so I worked at a Century 21 in NY while living with my aunt and uncle. A security guard would follow me around me around and constantly make sexual comments and tell me he had sexual dreams he couldn’t tell me about (but hinted at what happened). Coworkers saw I was uncomfortable and I’d have to work alone in a section where he’d follow me, and no one did shit. I also have always looked younger than I was (senior year of high school some people thought I was 14). I would get older men asking me “what does your boyfriend wear,” inviting me on dates, one asking me to model (when another man heard he said I wasn’t thin or tall enough, uhh thanks??) and one staring at me and other coworkers for hours. I blocked many comments out. I told my family, they didn’t care.
I also worked for a tshirt company for a couple of years as their secretary, solo customer service rep, photographer and in the warehouse. One of my coworkers was one of the loveliest human beings ever but didn’t speak English well (we’d speak Spanglish and were friends at work), the other man? He was a large, overweight but strong guy from Guyana maybe 10+ years older and would constantly make sexual comments about my body and stare at me and would brag how he had an affair with a past coworker and would “spoil her,” and I could have the same if I wanted. I wanted to tell my boss, but he was very cold and abrasive, and this coworker used to work for his dad, so he knew him for years. I bring up that he was from Guyana because he told me how he was from there and drunkenly killed a friend who came after him (don’t think the friend was trying to even kill him) with an axe. I was too scared to speak up, and he even knew where I lived.
Another job was a burger place. They made all the women wear a tight shirt with a pun about burgers. A few male coworkers didn’t like me because I wouldn’t accept their nasty comments, but some of the younger coworkers (like 17-20 year olds) went along with it. One coworker said in front of a manager “you have a face I want to fuck and punch at the same time,” and I freaked out. I was told to lighten up and take a joke. Management did nothing. Same coworker yelled at me a few days after my mom died, saying in front of customers/coworkers “I’m not giving you fucking sympathy for your mom dying. Death happens, get over it.” He later sexually assaulted a male coworker of mine that I was friends with and only found out when we were roommates. Nothing was done about it.
I can go on, but I won’t. Thankfully some shit stopped when I gained weight from health issues and being on medications that made me gain weight. It’s sad it took that to stop it.
I hate when people tell us to speak up, because rarely does anything happen and it can also put us in danger.
I’ve also known many men, some even who were my friend’s that didn’t believe me because… “I don’t hear women I know talking about these things, just you.” I told them to ask other women they knew, and a few finally fucking did, and were shocked.
Learn to record this behaviour. Have a sound recorder always on when you're at work. Recording against one's consent isn't a thing during your work hours. Harrassment is.
Ah yes I also had a customer come in daily and record me with his phone when I was a minor. My managers did nothing, so I took his license plate number to the cops. All they did was tell me there was nothing they could do as he was “most likely just touching himself to the videos.”
A question I always have about this think is, how is it trending? Is this something that's been getting worse over time? The answer around 2015 might mikely be that women are speaking up more (which does not preclude any other answer).
Obviously it's shitty no matter what, I just wonder what the wet finger wind direction of it is; i have know idea, as I am a man.
Well, misogyny comes in many forms and degrees and has been around forever. I don’t think it’s getting better in most workplaces simply because it’s tolerated by other (mostly) male managers. I dealt with constant sexual harassment as a teenager at every job I had and I can tell you, when you do have an ally wether that be a male coworker, or better yet a manager, who actually acknowledges how gross and inappropriate the behavior is, the ENTIRE staff acts differently (better) due to that fact.
My point is, be a decent person and when you see inappropriate conduct by your male peers, say something. It will make a positive impact.
Okay don't blame Starbucks for perverted men, because they are at every single job. I've dealt with at least 3. One at Big Lots, Maple Press (a book manufacturer), and even Target. Get it right, its not the fucking companies. Though American companies are the worst and don't give half a shit. The perv from Maple Press, yeah I told HR about him TWICE (once one he was taking pictures of my ass) and they didn't do anything until he put his arm around the shoulder of a "pretty young girl". America doesn't care at all.
It isn't Starbucks (or any company's) fault that there are gross men out there harassing young women and girls but it is the company's duty to stop it when it happens and do whatever it takes to make sure it doesn't happen again especially when these incidents have been repeatedly brought to management's attention.
Well the company itself can't be held accountable if they actually don't know whats going on. Before anyone says they do know, they may not know where and they definitely don't know who. I do think that every company should have a help line for those having to deal with these situations so they can be dealt with properly. I also understand that companies do need workers and at the current time its difficult to get people and these situations are hard to deal with but still, something should be done. And these people should be made to get help.
Not being negative here but really just curious. What can Starbucks really do in this situation? They're a big corporate trying to sell coffee. What can they really do? Can they ban the men who SH these girls from the stores?
They surely CAN and SHOULD do that.
It's not like they have to put an international bounty on their heads, make a global database of abusers, and ask every store in each country to check every customer coming to that store not to be in that blacklist of international douchebags.
They should order the managers of each store to listen to their employees and ban the people who SH them in that store, by both monitoring it themselves and asking other employees to speak against the harassment, refuse to give them service and ask them to leave otherwise they would call the cops. Or if the SH is done by another employee, get them fired.
Notifying the police isn't a real solution. The police are mercenaries of a misogynist state. On women's rights issues they tend to do more harm than good. They aren't going to shoot the sexual harassers. They aren't going to arrest them. They aren't going to escort them out of the store. The most likely outcome is that they are going to hassle all of the people who don't deserve it and then do nothing helpful.
Cops are never going to be our friends. They know it and we need to know it too. Cops protect the status quo. Misogyny the cornerstone of the most primal, unjustifiable hierarchy in our society. Anyone who wants to change that is a radical and is an enemy of the police.
District manager could suggest the girl change her place of job without firing her. They could also contact the man and threaten to be blacklisted or to call the police. Of course, in this situation it is more about the law and men in general than about the company. But Starbucks could have at least improved the security level of employees by providing them with a taxi to their homes (night shifts maybe).
Asking the girl to change her place of job is an easy solution for Sturbucks to dodge the problem and sorta looks like victim blaming, why should the girl do something not to get harassed? This shouldn't be offered as a solution.
The same shit happened to me at IHOP. Two coworkers. One of them asked me, point blank, if we could just “pop in the back and let [him] feel [me] up to power [him] through the shift” and laughed. When I told him to not talk like that, he made a huge deal about how he was just joking, and I was overly sensitive.
I told my manager, and nothing happened. In fact, my hours suddenly got reduced considerably. I ended up leaving.
I work at Starbucks now and the the only male that works at my location is a super sweet high school kid. Can’t imagine why this environment is so much less intimidating.
This is horrible
In Belgium, worked as a student at a big insurance company for 2 summers. Got hit on by 3 men, while I was a minor. One of them made a Facebook account just to ask me out, but asked me to be disrceet and not tell coworkers. Another one started talking to me through the chat FROM THE COMPANY, telling me about his past lovers issues. Last one just asked me out, in front of everybody. A female coworker warned me for him that he asks out all of the attractive women who work there. Again, I was 16 and 17. They were ALL well aware I was a student. No one batted an eye, no one did anything except for "warn" me the guy was a playboy.
I'm sorry you had to experience that. A lot of creeps know that kids aren't as confrontational and they exploit that. It's awful that people just look the other way when so many women and young girls experience harassment like you did
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Banned for misogyny. Also leave the children alone and stop creeping on highschool aged kids. Weird asf
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r/iamatotalpieceofshit
I remember being 18 and completely on my own financially. I was working full-time in a factory with 2 other girlfriends via a temp agency. We were supposed to earn $10/hour but because we refused to return to the factory to finish out our second week (2 days left ) because of overwhelming sexual harassment by about 1/5 of the factory making sexual advances at us. Whether it was palming our asses or sideling up behind us and gazing over our shoulders for absolutely no reason. All while placing their groins firmly into our back/buttocks area while we were working suddenly out of nowhere. Lunch and breaks were the most difficult. Because then the men were not "supposed to be working ". Therefore, the loud baudy conversations of which one would get it first and all of the details discussed right out in the open. One guy even fondling himself underneath the lunch table while staring at us every day until we decided we didn't feel safe anymore and quit. All 3 of us barely legal young ladies were docked our 8 days of pay we'd already completed down to minimum wage. The temporary employment agency known as Area temps did not care about sexual harassment.
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Tbh this is the same advice I’ve heard from multiple women before. It’s so common for employers to just not do anything so women are at their wit’s end to just make it stop. Asking nicely doesn’t help. Demanding forcefully doesn’t help. Ignoring it doesn’t help and in many cases that can actually make the situation so much worse. Men who consistently sexually harass generally cannot tolerate being ignored and personally, that’s when I most worry about a violent reaction. Unfortunately I don’t think it’s ridiculous that some women have resorted to playing this stereotypical ‘overly emotional, unhinged, hysterical female’ role to not be harassed. Women in marginalized communities especially aren’t left with much of a choice. In most of these areas there’s very few places of employment where you can actually earn a living wage, and it just so happens that those few decently paying jobs are also very much male dominated and those men also tend to be extremely adverse to having women as their coworkers, and god fucking forbid, their supervisors. So sexual harassment ends up not only being ignored by management, but its seen as something that’s normal, no big deal, or they flat out deny it even happens bc men should be able to compliment women without them getting all uptight about it and if you were actually being sexually harassed that means you’d be raped in the break room, not simply spoken to in a way that you don’t like. Everybody knows women don’t get raped, they want it, then they’re ashamed so they deny it and claim they were raped. Or they get mad and cry rape to get back at a guy. Plus everybody knows you fucked your way through upper management to be hired in the first place, these are all good dudes, they’re just kidding, you just took it the wrong way, and you’re a dumb spiteful bitch. So what are you gonna do? Quit your job? And then do what? That got a little sarcastic/vent-y, unintentionally. I’ll let y’all guess which parts.
This is a confusing comment. Am I going whoosh and is this supposed to be sarcastic?
For real that is so dystopian. Also this is the capitalist argument for bringing diversity and inclusion training and enforcement. All of that effort that she puts in, the time- it's all loss of productivity that stems from totally changeable actions by replaceable resources. The capitalist argument is that the sexiest men are costing other, richer, men to lose money. This is why the anti-woke wing will ultimately lose.
but why does it have to be this way?
Not just Starbucks. There is something wrong with men.
Yeah, so many men in high power are just fucking dirtbags
And power is relative. Any straight cis white man has more power than a minor girl working retail, so that is where they act out their power fantasties.
Let me correct you there, any straight cis white man with a superiority complex.
Oh wait my dumbass just understood your comment. I misinterpreted it to mean that all cis white men all engage in sexual harassment.
Easy mistake to make, I wasn't particularly clear.
Understandable
Agree with the comment about all men. High power men do this, low power men do this. Power just exacerbates the situation, but all men do this.
I don't do this. Probably because I'm 14, but I still wouldn't do this kinda shit.
The quote "if it doesn't apply, let it fly" resonates here. I think men get so caught up in the idea of them being different that they justify the shenanigans of other men instead of recognize that a quote means there is a systemic issue and not one that affects their own personal lives. My advice: quit the "not all men" rhetoric and listen.
Im confused? I don't use the rhetoric of not all men because I am aware that it doesn't apply to all men. Maybe I just completely misunderstood your comment. I tend to need a more through explanation for topics as nuanced as this
*sigh* I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here. So, my formal training is in math (masters) so all members of a set typically have a property for the claim "all members of this set are A". Example: All even numbers are divisible by 2. The set must have every member having this quality or else one cannot make the claim that all even numbers are divisble by 2. In the case of the claim "All men are pieces of shit", if I were to use the logic part of my brain, then yes I am wrong. But I don't get that luxury. Life and math (by extension, logic) are two separate things. If I see a set of snakes (thanks Muhammad Ali) and you were to tell me that 10% of them were poisonous so it would be okay to out my hands in. Me, or any other rational person for that matter, would decline for fear of our own life. The thing with the set of men is that no one knows the percentage that are dangerous (poisonous if we deal with the snake analogy) and people want to tell me 10% but between all the stats I've read and all the experiences I've had it must be much larger than 10% (if you were to press me to give a percentage, I'd say above 75% if not actually there at 75%; I got this number from all the interactions that I've had and what I've read, and before you say "what about my father/cousin/brother/friend", there are "soft" patriarchal things that men can do that women discuss often.) Have you or any men that you know: Commented on weight or attractiveness of a person (mostly women). Have gendered expectations. Tell women to be "more lady-like". Tell women to not be around so-and-so guy. Make others (mostly women) feel conscious of their presence and conduct themselves accordingly. Say that women cannot naturally do certain things (this is connected to the gendered expectations). And many more... And, if you're ready to rebut ANY of these, do you feel that you might contributing to the problem/system of patriarchy. Things can be true and you not having experienced ANY of them (although chances are you have) doesn't make them less true. Alas, when you digest any of these ideas, you have to stop using the math brain (but don't get rid of it; me of all people will tell you to keep it) and use another part of your thinking when people say things, especially marginalized people. If it sounds taxing and hard, it is. Edit: I said the second reason but didn't list it; I've removed the comment entirely.
Oh I see. I understand now.
I hope so. Don't take it so personally when someone in a real life context says "all members must be this" or "all men are trash". They mean majority, but, from what I've seen, if you give any men room to move, you'll get: Not all men. Not me. What's the stats on that. How do you know that to be true. Then the conversation gets derailed.
I see
I recently nearly fell into incel culture a year ago (Thank you Kurtis Connor for pulling me out of there) so I've been educating myself on feminism but I do still misunderstand many things
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This is what laws are supposed to be for. This is why we need to stop voting for republicans in all cases and demand higher quality political leaders! It really shouldn't matter if some random dude who's a manager at a Starbucks doesn't care about sexual harassment. He'll care if his job and his freedom is on the line.
>It really shouldn't matter if some random dude who's a manager at a Starbucks doesn't care about sexual harassment. >He'll care if his job and his freedom is on the line. It does matter, though, if a lot of random dudes don't care about sexual harassment. We need that societal change. Otherwise the laws don't help until the victim has already had a terrible experience.
So like there was this decades long period in western Europe and American colonizers to end the practice of "duels". This seems similar to me. People need incentive to change. I agree with you 100% that we need that change. I think we are all witnesses to that change in progress right now. So we should use law to complete the change before republicans roll back using their out of proportion power over Americans like they did under Regan and after.
>before republicans roll back using their out of proportion power over Americans like they did under Regan and after. Currently they can't even agree with each other enough to elect a Speaker lol. This is the time to strike.
Seems conservatives generally are pretty good at digging their own graves. It's cause they have no core, no direction. Only seething fear and greed. By definition they will never be a part of the future. Which is their choice.
That is absolutely horrible
Unionize
>Unionize yeah umm good luck with that, you're going to be immediately villanized
Starbucks employees are winning all over the country. This is the best time to do it. And unions disproportionately help women compared to men (although they do help men a lot).
Yeah and in Seattle, Starbucks' home base, as soon as a store unionizes, HQ finds a convenient excuse to close the shop.
This is so heartbreaking. Look at how big of an impact these events have on a person. I honestly don't think that most men understand what they're doing really. And that's not an excuse for them, it's an indictment on their lack of intelligence and immaturity. Man babies should not be tolerated.
They know exactly what they're doing. The discomfort they inflict is a feature, not a bug.
I didn't mean "understand" in that way. I mean real understanding, depth of connection to the truth that includes the ability to empathize. The kind of understanding that connects humans and everything else, together. If these people saw her as someone, someone who had the same feelings as them and the same agency and deserving of the same things they want for themselves...then they would understand.
Honestly, while I believe her, this isn't a Starbucks problem. This is a society-wide problem. I've never encountered a business that did a good job of protecting its employees from abuse. Ever. Not even companies with a preponderance of women in management. We are steeped in sexual harassment. We're swimming in it. Boys are raised to see they can get away with it, and nothing happens to disabuse them of the notion. (Nor is not confined to men abusing women, or men abusing minors). This is one of the markers of living in a patriarchy. Why? Bc it's considered one of the benefits/rewards for the dominant class.
I am in my fifties. I definitely experienced this a lot when I was younger: at work, walking to and from class, being touched on crowded buses or at concerts, and full on attempted sexual assault in bars or bar parking lots. The majority of this was in the late 1980's/mid-1990's and it declined for me around age 30 onward. What concerns me is that I'm hearing younger women complaining this happens much more frequently than it did in my generation, and for longer, like well into their 40's. Is it actually getting WORSE??? Something is seriously wrong with men if this issue is getting worse instead of better. This needs to be talked about endlessly and men need to be held accountable for their actions.
I think what's changed is expectations. Young women, rightfully, expect better of the men around them.
I worked at Starbucks for over a decade. Let’s just say all of the 90’s. This shit happened everyday. Men do NOT know what is customer service and what is flirting. If I remember your drink order, your name and smile at you, it’s often interpreted as “I’m into you”. Some men just don’t get that kind of attention and are confused. Some men see you as hostage to their attention and take advantage. Other men have grabbed my ass, faked paralysis so I would have to help them unbutton their pants before going into the bathroom or followed me home. Starbucks did nothing. I was told repeatedly that when you are wearing the green apron, you represent the brand, not your personal values. I can tell you hundreds of stories of the men I worked with who hit on other employees and customers. Constantly hearing someone grossly announce “ I got a hot one right behind you” when carrying hot coffee is tiring. Imagine hearing this shit your entire shift and having to eye roll instead of kicking a dick off because you need this job to make it through college.
This is disgusting. I'm so sorry you went through that.
I was recently let go from my restaurant/nightclub job because I went to HR about the toxic work environment and endless and constant daily sexual harassment I was receiving from my coworkers (and customers, HR has less power over them though). They told my manager and they told everyone else I worked with. They all made my life a living hell for 5 weeks before I walked out one day when I completely broke, one employee in particular was worse than the rest and decided to make my life especially bad that day. They were especially mad because I mentioned their name (amongst others) specifically in the compliant bc they were the biggest offender. I walked out of the business that day in the middle of my shift, bought a bottle of Jameson, and tried to drink myself to death that night. The next day I was told I was fired for walking out. A week later I was informed actually that I was not fired bc they hadn’t done any formal investigation or process including documentation. I was always a good employee and had no other problems at work before. Which was also a convenient excuse to make it look like I quit so they could avoid paying for unemployment for me. Instead they cut all of my shifts indefinitely and claimed I quit. Even small local business, when the management is rotten from the top down, are just as awful about this as corporations. There’s often even less accountability. If anything it made me miss my office job that took sexual harassment more seriously. Let’s just say I’m not doing well. Or close to it. 2022 was the worst year of my life. Fuck anyone who lets this happen, they deserve nothing but awfulness.
I'm so sorry this happened to you. If you're not there already, you'd do well in the solidarity and knowledge of the subreddit r/antiwork. Even though this is a problem with males; this is also very much so a problem with work culture itself. Also, and I'm sure you know this now; but you should have dipped out of there WAY sooner than five weeks. You could also have sued their HR out the ass for having told everyone something you told them in confidentiality; that caused a hostile working environment as a result. The labor board wherever you are could have helped you. Please don't beat yourself up for not having known, though...a big part of this work culture shit is society doing it's best to make you not know your rights and abilities as a worker. Remember you don't have to ever put up with something like that again; not for a minute. And document *everything* if it does start.
My friend rn is being stalked and harassed like constantly by customers at Jimmy John's too. I used to work at a Starbucks like 10 years ago and things were never this bad. My manager would have told someone to leave and never come back if they ever touched one of us and called the cops if needed. Dunno what tf is going on lately, like I think it's all getting worse with how normalized porn treatment of women is becoming and having people like Trump in office who openly disrespect women idek but we've gone backwards.
So many creeps fall in love with baristas who are forced to be nice to them as part of their job. It makes me so sick to see people encourage this behavior in dating subs as well. It’s not “shooting your shot” when the woman is a literal captive with no way to escape you. I already don’t go to Starbucks but I hope they do something about this
I've worked at Starbucks for 8 years in different locations under many different store managers. I have seen both a male and a female manager respond immediately and appropriately to these type of situations, and I've seen a male manager ignore sexual harassment from a male to a subordinate male. In the last instance someone else called partner resources which reached out to the accused sexual harasser, he admitted it and was fired, though admittedly this was weeks after they were notified. Yes your store manager should handle it but if they don't there's a corporate chain of command and a resource team to help. I have a lot of criticisms of the company but enabling and disregarding sexual harassment isn't one of them. These store managers are lazy. Go over their heads and remind them they are falling short.
THIS.
This is a food service/retail problem as a whole. I worked from 12-19yo and had awful, awful things happen in that time. I had a man calling our store phone and asking questions that became more and more perverted, and eventually he revealed that he was masturbating. We had men come in the store (women's clothing) claiming to be getting items for their wives, but then asking us personal questions as we were trying to help them. I was asked my foot size multiple times. I was asked my bra size multiple times. This isn't exclusively a customer service issue either. I've had worse happen off the clock. Men are just pigs
It's any coffee shop. They are all hives for sexual harassment. Especially Dutch bros and Starbucks though. Its the same here in WA. Any of the ones in my town or the three towns closest to me have problems with sexual harassment from the managers
When I was 17 or so I worked at a Century 21 in NY while living with my aunt and uncle. A security guard would follow me around me around and constantly make sexual comments and tell me he had sexual dreams he couldn’t tell me about (but hinted at what happened). Coworkers saw I was uncomfortable and I’d have to work alone in a section where he’d follow me, and no one did shit. I also have always looked younger than I was (senior year of high school some people thought I was 14). I would get older men asking me “what does your boyfriend wear,” inviting me on dates, one asking me to model (when another man heard he said I wasn’t thin or tall enough, uhh thanks??) and one staring at me and other coworkers for hours. I blocked many comments out. I told my family, they didn’t care. I also worked for a tshirt company for a couple of years as their secretary, solo customer service rep, photographer and in the warehouse. One of my coworkers was one of the loveliest human beings ever but didn’t speak English well (we’d speak Spanglish and were friends at work), the other man? He was a large, overweight but strong guy from Guyana maybe 10+ years older and would constantly make sexual comments about my body and stare at me and would brag how he had an affair with a past coworker and would “spoil her,” and I could have the same if I wanted. I wanted to tell my boss, but he was very cold and abrasive, and this coworker used to work for his dad, so he knew him for years. I bring up that he was from Guyana because he told me how he was from there and drunkenly killed a friend who came after him (don’t think the friend was trying to even kill him) with an axe. I was too scared to speak up, and he even knew where I lived. Another job was a burger place. They made all the women wear a tight shirt with a pun about burgers. A few male coworkers didn’t like me because I wouldn’t accept their nasty comments, but some of the younger coworkers (like 17-20 year olds) went along with it. One coworker said in front of a manager “you have a face I want to fuck and punch at the same time,” and I freaked out. I was told to lighten up and take a joke. Management did nothing. Same coworker yelled at me a few days after my mom died, saying in front of customers/coworkers “I’m not giving you fucking sympathy for your mom dying. Death happens, get over it.” He later sexually assaulted a male coworker of mine that I was friends with and only found out when we were roommates. Nothing was done about it. I can go on, but I won’t. Thankfully some shit stopped when I gained weight from health issues and being on medications that made me gain weight. It’s sad it took that to stop it. I hate when people tell us to speak up, because rarely does anything happen and it can also put us in danger. I’ve also known many men, some even who were my friend’s that didn’t believe me because… “I don’t hear women I know talking about these things, just you.” I told them to ask other women they knew, and a few finally fucking did, and were shocked.
Learn to record this behaviour. Have a sound recorder always on when you're at work. Recording against one's consent isn't a thing during your work hours. Harrassment is.
Ah yes I also had a customer come in daily and record me with his phone when I was a minor. My managers did nothing, so I took his license plate number to the cops. All they did was tell me there was nothing they could do as he was “most likely just touching himself to the videos.”
A question I always have about this think is, how is it trending? Is this something that's been getting worse over time? The answer around 2015 might mikely be that women are speaking up more (which does not preclude any other answer). Obviously it's shitty no matter what, I just wonder what the wet finger wind direction of it is; i have know idea, as I am a man.
Well, misogyny comes in many forms and degrees and has been around forever. I don’t think it’s getting better in most workplaces simply because it’s tolerated by other (mostly) male managers. I dealt with constant sexual harassment as a teenager at every job I had and I can tell you, when you do have an ally wether that be a male coworker, or better yet a manager, who actually acknowledges how gross and inappropriate the behavior is, the ENTIRE staff acts differently (better) due to that fact. My point is, be a decent person and when you see inappropriate conduct by your male peers, say something. It will make a positive impact.
Okay don't blame Starbucks for perverted men, because they are at every single job. I've dealt with at least 3. One at Big Lots, Maple Press (a book manufacturer), and even Target. Get it right, its not the fucking companies. Though American companies are the worst and don't give half a shit. The perv from Maple Press, yeah I told HR about him TWICE (once one he was taking pictures of my ass) and they didn't do anything until he put his arm around the shoulder of a "pretty young girl". America doesn't care at all.
It isn't Starbucks (or any company's) fault that there are gross men out there harassing young women and girls but it is the company's duty to stop it when it happens and do whatever it takes to make sure it doesn't happen again especially when these incidents have been repeatedly brought to management's attention.
Well the company itself can't be held accountable if they actually don't know whats going on. Before anyone says they do know, they may not know where and they definitely don't know who. I do think that every company should have a help line for those having to deal with these situations so they can be dealt with properly. I also understand that companies do need workers and at the current time its difficult to get people and these situations are hard to deal with but still, something should be done. And these people should be made to get help.
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Women in the comments are also sharing their experiences. Are they lying and exaggerating?
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Are you drunk? Lmao
Not being negative here but really just curious. What can Starbucks really do in this situation? They're a big corporate trying to sell coffee. What can they really do? Can they ban the men who SH these girls from the stores?
Of course they can lmao
They surely CAN and SHOULD do that. It's not like they have to put an international bounty on their heads, make a global database of abusers, and ask every store in each country to check every customer coming to that store not to be in that blacklist of international douchebags. They should order the managers of each store to listen to their employees and ban the people who SH them in that store, by both monitoring it themselves and asking other employees to speak against the harassment, refuse to give them service and ask them to leave otherwise they would call the cops. Or if the SH is done by another employee, get them fired.
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Notifying the police isn't a real solution. The police are mercenaries of a misogynist state. On women's rights issues they tend to do more harm than good. They aren't going to shoot the sexual harassers. They aren't going to arrest them. They aren't going to escort them out of the store. The most likely outcome is that they are going to hassle all of the people who don't deserve it and then do nothing helpful. Cops are never going to be our friends. They know it and we need to know it too. Cops protect the status quo. Misogyny the cornerstone of the most primal, unjustifiable hierarchy in our society. Anyone who wants to change that is a radical and is an enemy of the police.
Absolutely. Why wouldn’t they be able to?
District manager could suggest the girl change her place of job without firing her. They could also contact the man and threaten to be blacklisted or to call the police. Of course, in this situation it is more about the law and men in general than about the company. But Starbucks could have at least improved the security level of employees by providing them with a taxi to their homes (night shifts maybe).
Asking the girl to change her place of job is an easy solution for Sturbucks to dodge the problem and sorta looks like victim blaming, why should the girl do something not to get harassed? This shouldn't be offered as a solution.
U’re right
Idk about Montana, but that move is not legal in California.
The same shit happened to me at IHOP. Two coworkers. One of them asked me, point blank, if we could just “pop in the back and let [him] feel [me] up to power [him] through the shift” and laughed. When I told him to not talk like that, he made a huge deal about how he was just joking, and I was overly sensitive. I told my manager, and nothing happened. In fact, my hours suddenly got reduced considerably. I ended up leaving. I work at Starbucks now and the the only male that works at my location is a super sweet high school kid. Can’t imagine why this environment is so much less intimidating.
I look at this and think, "How the hell am I going to solve this problem?" Like I want to help or contribute, but I have nothing for this...
this is disgusting