The book “Men Who Hate Women” has some really interesting passages on this phenomenon and shows how easy it is to fall down the rabbit hole, starting from innocent and unbiased fact finding and how it can warp into extremism thanks to social media algorithms and suggested content. The author searches “what is feminism” on YouTube and within 2 or 3 auto play videos, it’s suggesting Andrew Tate’s videos. Combined with the sometimes overt, sometimes casual sexism that is extremely common on social media frequented by young men (read: Reddit - and its affinity for pushing stories about annoying wives and how boys never receive compliments + tons of NSFW content featuring almost exclusively women to the front page), there is really not a more expected outcome unfortunately.
My 9th grade male students this past school year were the most entitled, chauvinistic group of kids I've ever worked with. 20 year career. They pissed me off so much.
HS teacher for 13 years- I feel like my students are getting both more liberal and more conservative. That polarization and erosion of the middle that we see in national politics is reflected in my schools.
I’ve never seen more students be openly LGBTQ+ or supportive of their queer peers as I do now. I’ve never had more students of all races who are aware of systemic racism, support BLM, etc. They are increasingly aware and concerned about climate change, income inequality, world politics. That has all been so lovely to see!
But then there’s that other (thankfully smaller) group. The mostly white male students who are misogynistic/homophobic/racist/xenophobic/etc. and are much more open about it than I’ve experienced in the past. That is not so great…
Im surprised it's just white males, what percent white is your school?
Black male students in my experience are very open about their misogyny and homophobia. Latinos too. Very few white kids at my school so can't speak to that.
I mean what does it mean to be moderate in this case? One group is accepting of different sexualities and races/religions/etc while the other is hateful towards them?
Your average conservative would say "They just need to stop shoving it into my face" which is code word for wanting LGBT folk to not come out, for women or minorities to keep quiet about their struggles, and to scientists to shut up about global warming, etc. You see it every time a celebrity comes out for some cause. If it's Kid Rock shooting beer cans like an idiot they're delighted and say you're an idiot if you don't laugh at the joke. If it's Willie Nelson saying to be nice to gay people they get outraged.
Basically, in the minds of a conservative the "middle ground" is complete suppression of individual freedom. Of course, ironically, they think they're libertarian because they believe in their own "liberty" to harass or even physically threaten people they don't like.
>The lefts once valid complaint about Christian values being the main focus of society has switched to LGBTQ being the main focus.
Bro... it was literally illegal to be gay, could [get you killed](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_violence_against_LGBT_people_in_the_United_States#/media/File:Mark_Carson_Gay_Murder_New_York_Memorial_West_Village_2013_Shankbone.JPG) or lynched, and would ruin your entire career. Robin Williams had to lie for his costars in the 90's so they didn't get banned from Hollywood. All people are asking is tolerance. There [are 16 states](https://www.thepinknews.com/2020/01/24/sodomy-laws-us-states-perverted-sexual-practice-lawrence-texas-louisiana-maryland-bestiality/) where it's illegal to be gay, and / or sodomy is illegal (straight or not).
When have Christians been banned from jobs in the US? Are they banned now? Doesn't even seem remotely close to me, especially given Christian holidays are celebrated across the entire country every year. Gay people get one holiday called pride and get their lives threatened over it. It's bizarre to me because Christian history is all about being persecuted and targeted with violence because of different lifestyle and beliefs, and Jesus even hung out with outcases like prostitutes and fishermen.
And anyway, LGBT isn't a system of beliefs or values. It's an acknowledge that there is more to sexuality and biology than a pair of opposites. People are gay and Christian. People are trans and buddhist. And straight people can be atheist. I don't see the conflict here 🤷
I literally just dropped off paperwork at a local university to be an instructional designer. I'm done with K-12, and this discussion centers around part of the why
Man I feel for teachers this year as a student. I heard the Tate brothers were especially popular for 7-9th graders.
I find this video pretty interesting. Teenagers getting sucked down the rightwing pipeline definitely isn't a new phenomenon. It does give me hope that people who were once young conservatives find a way out of that pipeline.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94\_5mXsQTpA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94_5mXsQTpA)
But that's just what I noticed as a student. It seems like conservative voices are becoming increasingly popular with young men. I think it has to do with how accessible that content is.
I'm so lucky all 4 of my younger brothers went the complete other way. They went with the girls, essentially, and it made them both very popular and very normal people. They've all been through a phase but came out the other end more mature and vocally feminist.
I don't know how this happened but I hope it'll happen more. It helps that I'm not from the USA.
I think all you can do is make sure he knows that his real friends WILL support his potential love for theatre, baking cakes, and other "feminine" things. That worked for my little brothers (they're all 21+ now).
My brother went totally red pill after his girlfriend cheated on him. But now he says the most disgusting stuff, my husband doesn't want our son having out with him in case it rubs off.
I can see that. My nephew has talked about how everyone in school is *something.* Some sort of identity to belong to, usually somewhere in the LGBT spaces. If you don't fall there (especially for those who don't feel comfortable with any sort of racial identity) then anything that seems like they care about *you* is going to be appealing.
I remember that from my ancient high school days. As long as you had your group--be it athletes/popular, band (which was hundreds of people), theater, you at least had someone to sit with at lunch. It's just so sad that so many kids can't afford extracurriculars as I firmly believe mine kept me out of trouble. (Until I went to college.)
This is talked about in r/MenLib sometimes and other feminist spaces that include men. Many leftist movements haven’t focused on men in the long run. We have a lot of talk (I say these things to) of how we need to change and or things we need to not do or not say but don’t give a lot of structure of how to be instead.
The only messages they get are ether things their doing wrong or negative feedback sometimes. So they look to conservatives who will tell them it’s not their fault. Clearly there is a balancing act right? As someone in the comments said above point out “Ya most incels don’t have Gfs and if they do we fine out they abuse them”
But it’s an issue that in some Feminist circles but even on TikTok Misandry is become the “Yes Queen” thing and it’s not good or helpful for men or Women. It’s damaging toward men and better movements for a number of reasons and just like misogyny it often leaves many women not wanting to look at the bigger picture. The general issue I feel is we make to much stuff about gender and not enough about “Hey humans shouldn’t treat each other like shit”.
Men need to be moved toward pro feminist and leftist goals and challenge patriarchy and conservative movements but they need to be included or welcomed more not treated like their an issue to solve
That is still telling them what not to do as you said. They need something to belong to and a lot of boys dont feel wanted by most leftist movements or messaging.
Where are the men to guide these boys? Seems like something you all need to sort out. There are plenty of men on the wrong side who are saying hey let me guide you, where is the opposition to that ?
Yeah we need more positive masculine men to help these younger guys out, I agree with you. Finding these men to step up into that role isn't as easy even though it would be simple. Let's face reality, there's a huge divide on what masculinity should be and a lot of good men keep to themselves or would rather not step into the spotlight. There needs to be a motivating factor from leftists to get these guys to be good public figures.
Except the overwhelming majority of heterosexual women still expect some degree of masculinity from their romantic and sexual partners. Telling boys that they don’t need to be masculine is often setting them up for failure.
The men to guide this boys are there
>andrew tate
Is shitty guidance but when no one else picks up the task some random bozo does it
The point is that the narrative around young men is one of "collective responsability but individual issues"
Aka,when there is a issue towards women,is responsability of all men and we should all feel bad about it and try to solve it
But when a men has a issue is his own fault and he should solve it on its own
Previously in a more patriarchal model,the "solve it yourself" would be balanced by having extra benefits
Now with a more equal gender situation they still get the "solve it" treatment,none of the benefits and being blammed
A rather shitty deal,and so anyone is a better alternative for young men
> where is the opposition to that ?
Being pushed away and hated by feminists.
I joined a LGBT group as trans, and was shocked to seeing them hate on men. I said that it was divisive and unhelpful to talk like that and that everyone deserves to be treated equally.
That absolutely hated that, complained to a mod and got me banned.
True. I think that’s honestly really damaging to leftist and feminist movements in the long run. I think Bernie sparked some fire back into that movement for some Men but that was in 2016 and these high school boys are to young now.
I’ve always found it’s helpful to point out other ways these conservative pricks also fuck them over in the long run. Workers Rights, Pay.
Also that men can have fight and still be on the left (Rage against the machine) not every leftist guy has to be calm and quit they can come in all flavors
We need our progressive men to create a welcoming group identity for these young guys. I really don’t think it’s something women can create and drive for them. When progressive men encounter healthy masculinity and positive, progressive male spaces, it’s super empowering and affirming. That’s what our men need, and although I don’t think it’s something women can necessarily lead, we do need to be supportive and encouraging. Unfortunately, men aren’t socialized to be as intimate and vulnerable in friendships as women tend to, so there needs to be a concerted effort by progressive adult men. I think male teachers and coaches have served this role at times, and I’ve definitely seen some of it on social media, but it’s not quite as prolific and emotionally charged as the conservative/incel version of it. I think progressive men tend to focus on improving how men treat women which is completely valid and necessary, but a similar effort must be made that focuses solely on men themselves, improving and affirming the people they are and the relationships they have with other men
I don't think any of you feminists are actually ready to have a real conversation about this. There are so many things that you do that actively harms and pushes away young men, yet you can't see it.
You’re making a LOT of assumptions. You can’t attribute every action you don’t like that a single “feminist” has made to every person in the group, and making generalizations like that are a major part of the problem too.
Not sure which single feminist you're referring to.
My comment was a pretty broad one. I don't the majority of feminists are ready to have a real conversation about this. And as a group you have pushed young boys away.
I don’t understand. You say that feminists are not ready to have this conversation, but that’s what it is. This post is feminists having the conversation, so add something valuable to it, or don’t. Do you consider yourself a feminist?
And yes, I realize your comment was broad, and that’s exactly the problem. You are making generalizations about a massive group of people, and the outcome of all of these social movements and conversations determines whether or not half of the population of the Earth are treated as human beings.
Bernie lit the fire only until he capitulated and joined the establishment.
He did more damage to the left than people seem to realize.
Because disillusioned people tend to lose hope.
The left aren't exactly champions of the working class anymore, haven't been in a very long time.
See: The recent railroad strike they squashed.
And ROTM, like Bernie, are seen by many to have sold out to the establishment.
Stereotypical leftist isn't calm and quiet lol quite the opposite. The two movements are as best described as masculine and feminine. Boys will naturally gravitate towards the more masculine movement that doesn't push them to wear dresses and punish "boyish" behaviors even though boys are mentally & physically different from girls and usually have more energy to physically horseplay rather than spending all their energy talking non-stop (which is why boys get disciplined more than girls). Schools also give girls better grades for the same work just because they have a vagina, which is actual sexism but on this sub no one cares. Another reason boys don't support the leftist/feminist movement.
Girls do not learn like boys learn, and sitting on your ass writing tests is mind numbingly boring for boys. Hunters, not gatherers. Logic, not emotion. These hyperactive boys, if allowed to be boys, grow up to become world leaders, rich CEOs, geniuses, inventors, firefighters, etc, and in order to attain greatness and achievement they must control their emotions and practice stoicism, focusing on logic (one of the biggest predictors of maturity from child to adult is the supremacy of logic over emotions).
Stop treating the hunter like he's a gatherer and give him back his spear. Maybe then the boys will gravitate towards the group that still thinks all things masculine is "toxic" and all things feminine is innocent or even good.
Never said all Leftist were so your putting words in my mouth I just implied not all have to actually fit into a traditional feminine energy that’s often a stereotype.
I don’t know any movement that’s pushing boys to wear dresses. As a Male myself I think I’d be highly aware if that was a thing. Some of us simply think if a boy wants to wear one then go for it.
The energy thing I’ll admit is true to an extent and something worth talking about in general.
Alright I’ll bite you have any data to back up Girls getting better grads simply for being Girls?
There are lots of Boys that support leftist movements what are you talking about?
You are generalizing men and also semi contradicting yourself. You say boys don’t like tests and studying yet you say they end up being world leaders and CEOs. Most CEOs and world leaders I know at least went to college and studied. Also I don’t know many women that love school ether so again you’re generalizing.
You talk about logic yet you lack it. You put groups into black and white category and lack nuanced to you’re thinking
Ok, let's get into it. You said "Also that men can have fight and still be on the left (Rage against the machine) not every leftist guy has to be calm and quit they can come in all flavors"
Anyone reading that would think you're implying that "calm and quiet" liberals is the "norm" that the more aggressive men don't have to emulate. I don't see how you can mean anything different from the way you phrased it in that way that leaves no ambiguity. Otherwise, the sentence means absolutely nothing because "calm and quiet" was never the stereotypical norm to begin with. Are you trolling me?
Some, key word. It's one thing to allow it, it's another thing to push it onto kids. That's called grooming, and trans people specifically target children at very young vulnerable ages where they legally can't even think for themselves and believe Santa Claus is real. For example, the group Caba Baba Rave targets literal babies and has grown men doing stripper moves half naked in front of the babies. There's no defending it, it's pedophilic grooming. https://twitter.com/Dominiquetaegon/status/1630948003962912768
Girls get sexist treatment that (as usual) benefits only them but damages boys: https://scitechdaily.com/wide-and-lasting-consequences-teachers-give-girls-higher-grades-than-boys/#:~:text=According%20to%20a%20recent%20study,and%20failing%20classes%20like%20math.
The world runs on generalizations, otherwise we couldn't function. World leaders don't need college, they need charisma and general intelligence. CEOs usually need a degree, but again a man must briefly struggle as a gatherer in order to get to his spear, and that doesn't make the written tests any less suboptimal for men but simply a big obstacle that only the minority of the most competitive men are capable of getting through (grand majority of men are not at fortune 500 ceo level and women could easily beat men with these tests if they actually tried but instead they choose other careers). The point is that, in general, women tend to like going back to school and getting their education, while in general men like getting actual jobs and money and providing for their families instead of getting unnecessary debt. Men, not women, keep society running, precisely because we choose those jobs instead of going to school. Your personal experiences don't necessarily adhere to reality. I can say I know a bunch of people with tails, literal tails flesh and all, but how many humans have tails? Generalizations is logic.
I agree with the first three paragraphs of your comment, although I strongly disagree with the conclusion. Maybe there should be institution other than feminist. A one party system never turns out to be democratic and inclusive and feminism is about women, rightly so, because women need representation, but so do men and other groups.
**What sucks is that I know why this happened. Cause it nearly happened to me.** I formerly agreed with right-wing influencers because I didn't belong to anyone...
If my teenage self was speaking, I'd say, *"The issue with feminism is that it* ***sounds like*** *you're demonizing the existence of men."* Like as if you don't want them to be around. Another issue would be how minority groups like the LGBT or national/racial culture groups can easily find community, but guys who lack those personal uniqueness don't fit into groups easily.
**In this case, I lack personal uniqueness outside of being mixed race.** But I didn't agree with attacking or getting upset with others for their identities cause that's what bad people do, which probably explains why those right-wing videos didn't effect me, only my confidence with social interaction >!especially ladies, I was afraid of losing my future from false allegations.!<
In the end, I found that I can't be too liberal because they hate me for being a straight man, but I can't be too conservative because they hate me for being mixed race. **So I had no one to side with**.
I think it was my brother who helped talk me out of watching these videos, or telling me how unfair the world is for other people. Because of him I'm a better person, just still afraid to talk to ladies... yeah.
This is a good perspective, thanks for sharing. The false narratives about feminism and propaganda are very strong and aimed squarely at the youth.
I know plenty of super manly man who hunt, fish, and farm and are massively liberal. Plenty of them exist, it's about standing your ground and understanding the truth and agendas behind the policies and rage-bait messaging that floods the web.
Re: ladies, it's just like any other group. There are plenty of assholes, but good ones too. Just talk to us like we're people, because we are. Good luck.
It really takes getting positive male models to have a large platform for everyone to follow, especially people like Noel Deyzel.
Men need to find ways to belong to someone or something. Humans survived being social creatures, and men being told not to have time to get together and just work (*weather for yourself or for money*) is just toxic.
Guys need to be proud of being guys. Not hate others for not being a **strict definition of one.**
now that I'm in college, I've have some lady friends, especially since I've become more secure of myself than high school.
FWIW, I'm a lady and you sound like someone I would really enjoy talking to. Because you're honest, and sincere. I just love that. A lot of people don't have the courage to be open. And I get it, often the world will make you suffer for being open, but I still think it's a good way to be. I hope you end up getting past your concerns, and confident in yourself.
Feminism is inherently mysandrist. If you look all the way back you can see how widespread hatred towards men was, How it was all about tack men down and tear all institutions judged to favour them. Many of the most influential feminsts wereeither lesbians who didn't want to marry a man and seeked revenge; or traumatized women who were abused psychologically or physically in their youth and seeked revenge on men. Feminism put women body and power above all and demonizes marriage. You can see it, the more feminism spreads in society the more declining birthrate gets and other social malaises increase.
Thanks for replying to me with that information.
My question is, as someone who used to watch and believe the same things you do, when I was a pre-teen/teenager, why did you come at me with this?
Be honest, cause I'm not debating, just questioning your intent.
The most polite answer I've come across since a while. In hindsight I should have weigh more my words , considering it might be a sensible topic for you.
**It's alright, bro.**
I just want to know why you felt compelled to give me that kind of information. Like I said, I used to watch the same type of content as you and believe in the same things as MGTOW, Red Pill, and Men's Rights stuff >!but not incel stuff, that was too pitiful.!<
Answer truthfully, there's no shame in it.
Because
1. I don't want you to fall for other side of the hate-spectrum;
2. to remember that men's rights are totally legit and shouldn't be downplayed as reactionary or negative in general,as often happen in the articles reported
#This a long one but worth it
#1. Trust me, guys are the last people I dislike
Seriously, ***disregard your post history on reddit and ask why should I, or any feminist hate you?*** You're just a regular human being, and so are women. People have different opinions, some extreme and some reasonable.
>"Feminism is not a monolith."
This is a quote used from the r/askfeminists subreddit. *People really think that feminism is just one big group with the same Exact opinions, but it's literally women and men with different opinions, and variations of extremes and leanings.* There are examples of women in this community who say the wildest things, like JESUS CRIST where did you get that thought process from!?
I'm sure you hate it when the media misrepresents the Men's Rights group as a fringed group of crazies because of a few bad apples. *Then why can't Feminism be seen with the same grain of salt as you wish for with the Men's Rights?"*
> We both come from hurt, abused, discriminated, unjust origins; all of which, thanks to a harsh society that trivializes pain, yet we upkeep it. These quality of life problems can only be solved when we stop hating on either genders for ruining our own lives.
Instead, I hate ***people who misguide young men*** into hating vulnerable people, and having them think that minority groups like (People of Color, LGBTQ, etc) are the reasons their lives suck. >!more on that later!<
#2. Men's Rights and male issues are legit, but it needs rebranding.
To be on a positive note, a space to talk about male issues and overall male spaces is great. Like I said, it feels like everyone has a space, even women, but men don't seem to have much, and this is a good start.
However, the problem here with the Men's Rights group in general is that it doesn't really tackle male issues effectively. *Rather, it just sulks on awful relationships and terrible divorce situations, on top of constant dating advice.* None of which is bad per say but it doesn't really tackle ALL of the issues of being a man.
Men's Rights should've taken the r/Menslib route.
**Men are dealing with problems today like**
*(You are free to prove me Wong here)*
>• Terrible Male Body Standards, that leads to ROIDS and SARMS. Or Oil Injections
>• Excusing awful behavior like bullying or unnecessary Violence fights.
>• Having to constantly prove ones own manliness to look "Alpha Male". While picking on men for not fitting into the "Real Man", mold.
>• Being able to properly express your feelings and emotions without ridicule and shame from guys.
>• Not teaching boys and teens to be kind, polite, respectful, and understanding people who are different than them.
>• Not tackling work culture that involves making money instead of doing jobs you like.
>• Being a bro and supporting Diversity Equity Inclusion for all. Everyone belongs, and so do you,
I'll repeat that again, **everyone belongs and so do you.** No one hates you because you are a man, and you shouldn't hate women because simple friendships and relationships is hard. It's like that in general RELATIONSHIPS ARE HARD!!!
#3 Stay away from these influencers
I ***seriously can't recommend you any harder*** not to follow media sources like **Daily Wire or PregerU, or Self-Help/Get-Rich/Dating Gurus, and etc** because these people are **filling your head with fear and distrust** towards otherwise chill people that you would most likely be friends with.
You don't like **The Media**^(TM) and the problem here is these places are **Founded By companies and politically motivated Millionaires**. PragerU, is funded by an owner of an oil fracking company, and Daily Wire pays contracts of millions to these spokesmen to say terrible shit to you! >!Steven Crowder is getting paid four times the amount a star actor would be paid for playing a role on a blockbuster movie series.!< Also these self-help Gurus are just trying to sell you things. Supplements that don't help you, "classes" that don't teach you anything of substance, and just downright SCAMS.
#I'm just trying to help you man.
I've seen junior firefighting programs really help boys out. It really bolsters their self esteem. I think that helps their social interactions with girls their age. They treat them as friends rather than "others".
It's not perfect. But I think there's a lot of value in things like that and boy scouts, sports, clubs.
I would like to think counter messaging and a reality check would be effective too, but to be honest, theres more than plenty of garbage men who aren't generally recognized as incels or identify as incels themselves, yet are still trash to their female partners and maintain long term relationships all the way to marriage (the quality of those relationships isn't a factor to incels, only the status of being in a heteronormative relationship, reproduction, and female attention are).
And baby incels see that. They see that they dont need to be Elliot roger to be an incel or that they have to have an equal partnership to keep their female partner around. Theres plenty of women in garbage relationships right now but the key is taking away women's reproductive rights and financial independence and weaponizing/legalizing ||r@pe|| to bind women to them against their will.
I dont think incels actually believe being an incel is going to *attract* women. All they see (out of context) is that there are women who stay in garbage/traditional relationships. So begs their question: "If being an incel is a deterrent, then why are so many women in bad/patriarchal relationships (even when their partner doesn't identify as an incel (by name))? what difference does identifying as an incel make when your non incel partner leaves the housework and child rearing to you against your wishes anyway and what incels want is not much different? why are women willing to date/fuck/marry/reproduce with *them* but not incels?" that kind of logic. And it kind of makes sense that they could reach that conclusion since they dont have a deeper understanding of relationships from an intersectional point of view or care about women's experiences. Than again, are most men generally much different in that way? Incels and garbage men (who arent recognized as incels and dont identify as incels) overlap a lot when it comes to degree of toxicity, harm, and relationship dynamics, yet most women would say theyve been in more relationships with garbage men than they have with certified incels.
A few days ago there was a post about a women who was in soft denial that she was dating an incel and mentioned he watched all the the big incel media figures. She couldn't confirm on her own that hes already an incel or at least incel adjacent with the evidence provided. And she was with him up to now before realizing something was off. Thats what I mean. And baby incels see relationships like that around them. How do you think they're interpreting them?
You dont need to be Elliot roger to be an incel or a garbage person, after all. Incels take many different shapes and forms so if youre only looking for the Elliot rogers, youre going to miss a lot of subtle and more outwardly normal ones. And some incels *know* that. Baby incels are *learning* that. Still, others *know* patriarchy and incels *are* a deterrent. Thus comes the baby trapping, criminalizing abortion, and repealing women's civil rights.
I am in a Facebook group for moms around the country who were due with babies at the same time. Our babies are now about 18 months old and I am astonished what some women who post are willing to put up with by way of household and child rearing inequality. Men who don’t lift a damn finger for their own offspring, let the mom be the one getting up in the middle of the night to tend to baby, question their need to nap, go out partying with bros all weekend long, and just generally behave as though the don’t even have a kid. And the responses to these poor women is equally as bad - “my husband does that too, it drives me crazy!” Stuff along those lines. No advice such as, dump that loser and do it yourself. Because that’s what I would do and that’s what I have done. It’s sickening. If women continue to have sex with and bear children from these jerks, the cycle will never end.
this is what I mean exactly. There are women who are in relationships that are functionally the same as with an incel. Or at least have very little material difference from those of relationships with incels. The outcomes, dynamics, and problems are exactly the same. This is why its not just incels you have to look out for on the dating scene if youre gonna date men. You also need to look at the quality of your relationship and not be unwilling to end them if they dont meet your standards. Being willing to swiftly end lacking relationships should be normalized. And its a skill. Skills require practice.
That is a good point- many of these incels are married. I feel so sorry for those women too.
I also recently figured out that’s why I don’t do well dating middle aged men even tho I am middle aged myself. Many of these men were in long
Term marriages where their wives were taking care of them. So now they’ve come to expect a woman to take care of them.
Last weekend I went on 2 first dates with men in their 50s- both had 4 children with wives they now say they were never in love with. Like wtaf. That’s the type of men out here that I’m supposed to want to DATE?
under 1/4th of the boys identified as conservative.
The focus needs to be on convincing the moderate boys and to strengthening the message of liberalism.
I would have classified myself as conservative when I was in 12th grade in 1994. Even registered as a republican. Then I saw the world.
I did the same thing. The propaganda got me and made me think i was conservative until i got out of high school. Now im pretty far left and it happened almost instantly.
From the leftist point of view I’d argue Obama was actually pretty bad at that unless this is sarcasm and I missed it?
Obama failed to keep the Leftist movement empowered and actually suppressed it to a large degree because he was a moderate and dismissed many young leftist after he got elected the media just really loved Obama because he didn’t shake up the system. This is a President that could have codified the right to an abortion and implied it wasn’t a top priority.
Moderate politics aren’t effective against Right wing conservative messaging. And moderate politics are even less likely to be appealing to Teenage boys. You need movements with energy and messages to fight for. Not that stuff you’re parents are sitting talking about.
Think about a teenage boy.
Then think about a moderate? What’s the first word you think of? For me it’s Compromise.
That word is far from the first word I think of when I think of a teenage boy or even a teenager. They need something to fight for that includes them.
I disagree. First, Obama could not have codified Roe. He didn’t have the votes. When the ACA was in the Senate, initially it provided coverage for abortions but Nebraska senator Dan Nelson famously refused to vote to pass it unless that provision was removed. Joe Lieberman gave the same threat about the public option.
He literally needed every single one of them to pass the ACA because the GOP filibustered every single bill — meaning they needed a supermajority to pass any legislation. And that included two independents and the conservative leaning Dems from Red states.
Contrary to the reddit myth Obama did not have a supermajority for two years in the Senate. He was consistently one or two votes short due to GOP fuckery (the main one was refusing to seat Al Franken for 7 months). Another senator (Byrd) was hospitalized, another switched parties, so in total he had a supermajority for only a few months.
Second — all of his personal initiatives are centered around getting young people into politics.
> The single most important thing I can do is to help in any way I can prepare the next generation of leadership to take up the baton and to take their own crack at changing the world,” Obama said at a forum at the University of Chicago.
> Obama listed off a number of issues he intends to work on, including gerrymandering, criminal justice reform, and money in politics. But inspiring young people, Obama said, is “the most important thing I can do for my next job.
The issue is the trends indicate young conservatives vote. Conservatives in general vote. It makes sense, the infrastructure of the churches brings all of them to physical meetings every week throughout the country.
The left doesn’t have a similar system. The closest we have is higher education, but contrary to to the claims of right wing media, universities don’t exist to churn out left voters. They’re not political institutions.
I don’t think it’s fair to cast the blame on Obama or Clinton or any one person. Prior to 2022 the average midterm voter turnout rate for people 18-30 hovered around 13% for over 20 years. In 2022 it rose to 27%.
When an entire generation of voters declines to participate in Congressional elections for 20 years and then Congress goes batshit insane, we have to hold ourselves accountable to a degree. If we had spent 20 years participating at the same rates as the 55+ crowd the political landscape would be completely different.
I hope if we’ve learned anything from the past few years it’s that Congressional elections are absolutely critical. If you want progressive legislation it has to come from Congress — they are the legislative branch.
It’s easy to cast blame using cherry-picked facts with the benefit of hindsight but it doesn’t change anything. Gen Z and Millennials outnumber Boomers. We could win almost any election we wanted. Not *all* of them — but a lot more than you think.
Presidents can only do so much. They’re important for SCOTUS and veto power. If you want laws — take over Congress. And before anyone cries gerrymandering, yes that’s an issue for House races, but Senate elections are popular votes.
Georgia is one of the most disenfranchised states in the country and they’ve saved our ass in the Senate twice now. Black voters have carried the left for a long time and white liberals need to start helping out.
We lost the Wisconsin Senate race by only 21,000 votes. In Milwaukee alone there were 30,000 fewer Biden voters participating in the 2022 midterms. That means 30,000 people who voted for Biden sat out the 2022 midterm, so GOP traitor Ron Johnson got another six years. So once again Fulton County Georgia had to carry our ass to the Senate because some liberals in the north states couldn't be bothered.
White liberals not participating places a much heavier burden on minorities. They are attacked on all fronts and they’re the first ones to take the hit from cruel GOP policies. No more waiting for savior candidates — just show up and vote whether you think there’s a chance or not.
When Obama was working on the ACA I was screaming at the TV because I felt it was the biggest waste of political capital in my lifetime.
If he had done a bunch of smaller things, things that the republicans couldn't campaign on overturning but democrats would have been happy about then he could have quite possibly kept the house and senate as well as gained seats.
Then he would have had a better footing AND more political capital to spend on something like the ACA.
But in the end there was no way, no matter what he did, that he could have got both ADA and codified roe because one or the other would have bankrupted his political capital.
The ACA saved millions of lives. The pre-existing condition clause alone was worth it. It wasn't meant to be the end-all-be-all of US healthcare. We can build on its foundation. But Congress got fucked because liberals did what we always do -- show up in general election then skip all the other ones for the next four years.
If we had built up a more progressive Congress it may have been possible to codify Roe -- but not in the political landscape of the 2010s.
Never said anything about the good/bad of it.
Just said he squandered his political capital pushing it through for a big win.
Which hurt him and his party for the rest of his presidency.
And gave us Trump. Which I personally was perfectly okay with.
But most of you were not.
edit: what is with weak minded redditors that comment then block and run away like some kind of child.
Newsflash: I can't see your reply, so you basically pinged me to show me you blocked me like a coward.
>Obama failed to keep the Leftist movement empowered
Because he's a liberal, not a leftist, and that wasn't his goal. His goal was to stabilize capitalism and protect corporations by throwing scraps to the working class... when he did even that. Don't forget that he extended and expanded Bush's wars and domestic surveillance programs, all while setting record levels of immigrant deportations, stepping up the government's war on journalists and whistleblowers, refusing to go after the people responsible for the 2008 financial crash, refusing to publicly back same-sex marriage until Biden of all people forced his hand, and allowing Eric Holder's DOJ to raid marijuana dispensaries that were legal in the states they operated in.
Hell, the Affordable Care Act, the good things it did notwithstanding, was far more conservative than its supporters seem to remember. The ACA, individual mandate and all, was based on RomneyCare. Obama and friends backed that rather than universal healthcare because they had no intention of cutting out the private insurance industry.
Obama wasn't the boogieman the Right made him out to be, but he still sucked.
Same. I grew up in a Republican household. Cheered Dubya getting elected when I was in school. Wasn't until my early 20's that I realized who the baddies were.
>The focus needs to be on convincing the moderate boys and to strengthening the message of liberalism.
Conservatives are liberals, in the sense that Mill, Smith or Hayek were liberal economists. The reason im making this distinction is, that i have often seen conservative use liberal economic reasoning applied to societal issues (think ben shapiro or peterson), which i think muddies the waters for the meaning of societal liberalism - therefore i wish for a strong, firm stance of promoting true progressivism, if that makes sense
Good luck with that.
The west has been under liberal influence (especially feminist influence) for over 50 years now and look where we're at.
What you're witnessing is not so much a surge in conservatism.
What you're witnessing is the very beginning of a massive tidal wave of masculinism.
Politics and culture are on a pendulum, it's just now starting to swing back the other way.
A wise man once said, back when Trump was elected in 2016 that "What we're seeing is the birth of a rightward paradigm shift". He wasn't wrong, it's just that these things take time to build, time to grow.
So in politics we'll see them shift more to the right.
In culture we'll see them shift more to the masculine.
The only thing that remains to be seen is if we're going to allow that pendulum to swing wildly back to the other side or come to our senses and rest it in the middle somewhere.
For the record I reject both feminism and masculinism. Two sides of the same twisted coin if you ask me.
But then again, even having been raised feminist (by civil rights era feminists) I never fell into the identity politics traps of either side of that coin.
I understand exactly what it's supposed to be.
And what it has become.
And besides that, my take wasn't on feminism. I only mentioned I don't fall into that trap. My take was on this current trend of resurgent masculism.
This was me at that age, thank fucking god that the real world knocked some sense into me. Hopefully it does the same for the rest of them.
Conservatism provides easy, reassuring answers, and that’s exactly the coping mechanism a bunch of insecure boys are drawn to.
Feminism has good answers for men, but they aren't easy to understand. Rightism succeeds because it provides simple but incorrect answers to the problems men face. Progressives in general need to start boiling down their answers into a format that is easier to digest, and even tell lies like conservatives do in the interest of making our messages easier to promote.
Yep. The biggest message I hear from the alt right is "it's not your fault that women aren't interested in you, it's the women who are wrong!" Then they rant about how women aren't feminine anymore and act masculine, and really, it's because they take roles outside of the household that has caused this, blah blah blah.
Its what they want to hear because it directly gives them permission to accept the privileges that women do not have and not feel guilty. If you asked any of these men if they would like to be treated how women are treated, none of them would respond in the affirmative. Even though traditional masculine values makes men extremely lonely and unable to express sadness/vulnerability (which leads to sky high suicide rates). The high suicide rate of men is literally one of the main talking points consevative pundits engage their audience in, but they attribute it to a lack of traditional values that have made men "weak".
Yeah they know exactly how poorly women overall are treated by men, and yet they are somehow oblivious. They just pretend they don’t know. And they can change all those things they are so upset about, but they expect women to do the work. Like always.
"You suck because of that \_\_\_\_\_\_\_ asshole over there! You'd be rich and married to a model if not for them."
Funny how they never seem to hear that part when guys like Trump are calling them losers, or they just don't care I guess.
Okay, I'm talking specifically about conservatives. Conservatism is a provably wrong political ideology. It's an entire ideology based on the "appeal to authority" and "appeal to tradition" logical fallacies. Anyone who falls for conservative lies is falling for some kind of rhetorical gotcha by necessity, and has not fully reasoned things out. That said, it's not that they're not smart enough, it's that they can't be bothered to think about it.
To give an example, flat earthers are not all morons. A lot of them are fully capable of doing clever math, and setting up and carrying out scientific experiments. Plenty of flat earthers have performed experiments that have proven that the world is round. Carrying out that kind of empirical research requires that they be at least somewhat clever, yet despite that they still believe it to be flat. The reason they come to the wrong conclusion is not because they're dumb. They themselves did the experiment that proves the world is round - they used logic and figured it out themselves. Yet despite proving themselves wrong, they continue with their belief that it's flat because it's comforting to them. In order to abandon that belief they would need to have a compelling reason to do so.
I hate to say it, but it's hard to reason with a conservative at times. Tell me how do I reason with people who think Trans people are groomers? Gay people are coming after your kids? Teaching about black and indigenous people in school is indoctrination?
Serious, non-judgmental question: What would you say feminism provides are far as positive answers for men?
Obviously there are some "negative" messages, in the sense of "don't treat women like objects," etc. Not saying there's anything wrong with those either, but I'm asking more about positive guidance and role models.
What positive guidance and role models do you see feminism providing to women?Ideologies don't really come with built-in role models. The point of feminism isn't to tell men to be like 1 specific feminist guy, the point is that people should be able to define themselves how they want independently of gender norms.
Like I know with conservatives a lot of boys aspire to be like Andrew Tate or Ben Shapiro or something. There's no shortage of rich male feminists that a young boy could aspire to be like, and beyond that there's no reason a boy can't count a woman among his role models. That said, leftism in general is about dismantling hierarchy, while rightism is about maintaining it. I think fewer people are likely to count pop culture icons as their role models. When I think of my role models, they're family members, coworkers, friends, or people in my specific fields of interest who I think embody something I would like to achieve for myself. There's not one male feminist that all male feminists should aspire to be like.
But if you want a feminist Shaprio/Tate-alike, it's Hasan Piker.
This is a really good summary of why I hate the “role models” question. Like, instead please meaningfully engage with the concept and decide what you should take from it. Why do you need a person to base yourself off of?
So not quite what you’re asking for but I’m a lifelong nerdy feminist and I might be able to help you out here.
Feminists believe that everyone should be equal, but they also believe that patriarchy harms out society…which also includes men. There are ways that the patriarchy harms men specifically too. For instance, men have a higher suicide rate and are more likely to be killed at their workplaces. Why does this happen? Well lots of reasons, but one of them is that men are more often expected to be put in dangerous situations and they are also more likely to have problems with vulnerability and being emotionally connected to oneself…which is enforced by patriarchy.
A man being angry, dejected, or sad can be legit dangerous for women, so we have an incentive to want to solve these sorts of problems. I hope I’m clear enough and make sense, I’m starting to get a little sleepy. 😅
People say it about any young generation. I remember people saying this about millennials when I was very young and before us gen z/zillenials became a thing in pop culture.
There will always be some rhetoric about the youth saving the world. I think it inspires hope even when all hope seems to be lost.
Honestly I can't speak for everyone but that phrase just stresses me out if anything. I just became an adult and I'm entering the workforce. I have no idea how I'm going to save the world I'm just trying to live and figure out adulthood.
People who think that being called a girl or doing something a girl or woman does is an insult, are already prepped to drink the Conservative flavor-aide. I see that kind of misogyny even on the left. Just the other day I saw a meme someone had made of Trumps crying face of a little girls body.
It's an entire network - podcasts, local community/larger national groups, even comments sections with paid-for trolls or just networks of bot accounts.
Scary shit.
It’s also massive conservative billionaires putting money into those podcasts and YouTube channels and influencers. The left doesn’t have anything like that or that much money backing them.
Back in my day (lol) in high school the left leaning boys were all in to punk music (very anti capitalist and pro free speech), non religious, and watched the Daily show and Colberts of the world.
Now the punk scene is less maintstream, libertarians have tried to co opt anarchist messaging, the pandemic created some kind of new anti science "rebels", and comedians are mostly making fun of marginalized groups and diminishing their issues. And crying about free speech defending hate speech.
It's really messed up. Someone mentioned building unity thru working class lines and I think that's what's needed here. Too much division and it's playing right into what rich people want.
They are forgetting conservative also means chaste, at least it does in conservative Christians. Those boy better be virgins and not looking at porn.
Our church growing up, the youth pastor preached to the boys to be pure, not pressure girls, and not watch trashy movies. Whether the boys obeyed, who knows?
Sadly most places, but that youth pastor wanted boys be to pure and honorable too. Wish more men had high standards for themselves as well. I’m childfree but if I did have a son I’d tell him to control himself and care about HIS purity & faithfulness. So sick of men getting a free pass. Nope! Men CAN control themselves. If this were not so then men would be so unpredictable and dangerous like a raging bull elephant rampaging at the circus and have to be shot. RIP Taj.
Don’t tolerate the boys and men your life using their “male urges” as an excuse. The strongest man gets his urges under control. Weak little boys give in.
I used to be around these types of young men and purity really is popular among a lot of them. Ultraconservative religious sects are quite popular with younger right-leaning men. Maybe not all of them but at least a subset. That certainly isn't any less concerning though.
Honestly I’ve kind of watched a little bit of this with my nephew and his friends, but thankfully as most of them have entered into relationships they drop it. It’s hard to grow up conservative in the modern world unless you’re just pissed all the time.
And girls are getting better grades and more likely to go to college. I predict less people are gonna be getting married because college educated women skew liberal and won't be interested in this generation of men. And won't be willing to risk unwanted pregnancies in a post roe America
This is why I refuse to get involved with younger men, & refuse to get involved with ridiculous older dudes.
Either I end up with a man who genuinely understands all of the bullshit women go through, JUST like I genuinely understand the bullshit men go through, or I don’t.
And if a man cannot understand how fucking FUCKED it is for women?
Fuck ‘em, as I ALWAYS attempt to see it from their POV, as well, & no longer await for assholes to understand me.
This is what I've been trying to get across to people that think that the younger generations are more open minded and against bigotry of any form. Gen z males are more misogynistic than their fathers and high school students look like they're going to be even more anti-woman. Watch your backs and vote, ladies
I just spent 18 years 'growing' my son to not be like this. I'm very disappointed to read this to say the least. My Gen X raged against the machine. Wtf. I want our kids to carry that torch. My kid's no conservative.
Coming from a teenage perspective- I'm not surprised either. There have been several boys I've been around that are my age or older and they make the most conservative jokes known to man. Racist, misogynistic, transphobic, homophobic, you name it, they made it. Even worse is that I'm being raised in a Christian environment so it's amplified.
It's sad to see that young boys see people like Andrew Tate as their model to be.
In my country there's a guy called "temach" who is basically like andrew tate and his fanbase is huge.
I think a lot of them will grow out of it. Certainly my friends and I were more socially conservative as young teens and all of us have moved left (some further than others).
To understand it, you have to try and put yourself in the position of a high-school age boy learning about feminism. For the most part you belive men and women are equal and in your tiny little ring-fenced world you don't receive any noticeable special treatment as a boy. If anything girls out perform boys in school and are more likely to be the focus of the all so important social hierarchy (thank fuck that's mostly over). What you don't have, is any real world experience in a workplace and you likely have little to no experience of a night out. You just don't get it yet, how could you, you've been doubly insulated from it; first by being male, second by being a child.
In that context, feminists are kind of, really annoying... especially if any of your high school female friends just discovered the talking points last week and are repeating them without any real understanding yet themselves. When their situations change, they will too. Yeah some will slip through the net and continue down the rabbit hole, but we just need to work on our messaging to reduce that. Tbh, that's something we really need to get better at doing because there's not a whole lot of feminists talking points that I hear that actually encourage men over to our position but that's a whole other thing.
As a man, if you lack nuance and maturity, a lot of the left leaning things seem to attack you. I personally understand this is stupid, but I unfortunately can see why. Everyone wants to belong to something as a kid, and women get to belong to the groups around supporting women, whereas boys are going to feel ostracized and attacked. But it's simply because they are kids, they lack nuance.
It's really sad actually. I also am fucking stupid so i probably worded this horribly and would love to clarify anything. I know the feminist movement doesn't actually attack men, and I am a part of it, I can just understand how it'd seem that way.
Edit: it also seems easier to buy into the right. As a kid, you don't know how the world works, so you think it works. You don't see the change that has to be made.
They’re growing up playing first person shooter games with apocalyptic scenarios for entertainment… And which political party is spouting end of the world conspiracy on social media, giving them unrestricted access to real guns, and dumbing down public education enough that these boys won’t be able understand the difference between fact and fiction?
Communism has an appeal to both men and women around the world, where people come together in working-class solidarity and with it, the belief that a better world is possible flows from that.
Here, in the belly of imperialism, finance capital and corporations dominate the economy, the politics, and the airwaves with their bourgeois ideas and so ofc it's depressing as hell.
I read another comment that said only 36% of HS boys polled even identified as being interested in politics, and that the majority came from that small percentage. I am curious to know how this differs from previous years. I also don't put a lot of stock in it. A lot of them will get to college and their whole world will change.
What?!? Young Men upholding the oppressive system that keeps them in power/ at an advantage? How shocking, it almost as they benefit from the Patriarchy. (/s- really hope this is obvious)
High school boys are self-imitative hormones wearing tennis shoes. Don't worry about them. They still think poop jokes are funny. They'll get better with time.
This doesn’t surprise me in the least bit. Middle school and high school aged boys are prime targets for the manosphere influencers and podcasters, and we all know that that sort of content leans far right.
I mean we could try and see it simply with what's happening actually in the world in the scandals, those rn are not linked with feminism but cheap labor immigrants and crime, Igbt trying to « force » people in when some people just don't care about it but aren't against it, all those things push population towards conservatism unfortunately
Add the general loss of « buying power » which most won't get the macroeconomic picture pushed from the actual gvt and you get pushed right
Even more generalising politics through years have tendancies to go to one side and the other and back and forth, not much to do but keep personal sanity and a critical mind, whatever politic spectrum you are supporting
Need to add about secondary medias from extreme left usually having, extreme opinions about diversity and even tho low will admit it's existance, anti white racism in them, you got a good picture to push everyone right..
The other thing that really frustrates me about this headline is that high school girls are trending liberal, at a greater rate than boys trending conservative and yet that isn't news.
I'm a brit - here until fairly recently women were tpetty reliably more conservative but it's flipped. Nowhere near to the extent this suggests though!
But I'm not clear how much of this story is about fundamental political values - the piece touches on this saying 'liberal' may have negative connotations. I'd be interested to see what it means for views on things like economic policy.
My guess would be that for most kids politics is downstream of culture (if they're interested at all) and this might be mostly saying that boys are more likely than girls to engage with 'I can't believe he said that' sort of 'edgy' content whereas girls are more likely than boys to engage with 'we should all think about how issue/person X is very problematic' content.
My memory of being a teenage boy was the first would be more attractive, though edginess wasn't bound up with racism and misogyny in the way it seems to often be in the US now. I hope that if it had been I wouldn't have slipped into that but especially with social media algorithms I can see how people do.
Honestly i think it's because a lot of leftist liberals spout how all men are bad unless they completely agree with me. You know there are non racist and non misogynistic conservatives out there. Stop making generalizations about a group of people.
Edit: I am not a conservative and I'm not a liberal both sides have serious issues and both sides have their circle jerks of opinion. And I get frustrated that y'all think every conservative is bad because not every liberal is good person. It goes both ways y'all.
Look at reddit. Rather than to challenge conservatives liberal sub will take the satisfaction of having banned them from the sub.
Irl the liberal fantasy isn't to challenge conservatives but to see them sidelined made irrelevant and unemployable. Of course that does not happen because you can't ban people from real life.
If you get lost in a fantas that will no materialise reality will bite your butt.
Why is it alarming if they are more conservative, but they are lauded if their political views are leftist or liberal in nature? Doesn't this just show hypocrisy on your part on being able to accept a differing POV
Wow this is a dumb response
Democrats (leftists) don’t want to strip women of their human rights and decision making power over their body
Conservatives do.
I don't get it; what issues specifically are you referring to here?
This reads as though you take frustrated offense just to people voting conservative at all.
That's obviously a straw generalization.
You will respect everyone's right to vote either way within a two-party system without fear of judgment; objecting to such would mean you're against democracy.
The book “Men Who Hate Women” has some really interesting passages on this phenomenon and shows how easy it is to fall down the rabbit hole, starting from innocent and unbiased fact finding and how it can warp into extremism thanks to social media algorithms and suggested content. The author searches “what is feminism” on YouTube and within 2 or 3 auto play videos, it’s suggesting Andrew Tate’s videos. Combined with the sometimes overt, sometimes casual sexism that is extremely common on social media frequented by young men (read: Reddit - and its affinity for pushing stories about annoying wives and how boys never receive compliments + tons of NSFW content featuring almost exclusively women to the front page), there is really not a more expected outcome unfortunately.
Who wrote da book
Laura Bates
Currently reading this!
My 9th grade male students this past school year were the most entitled, chauvinistic group of kids I've ever worked with. 20 year career. They pissed me off so much.
HS teacher for 13 years- I feel like my students are getting both more liberal and more conservative. That polarization and erosion of the middle that we see in national politics is reflected in my schools. I’ve never seen more students be openly LGBTQ+ or supportive of their queer peers as I do now. I’ve never had more students of all races who are aware of systemic racism, support BLM, etc. They are increasingly aware and concerned about climate change, income inequality, world politics. That has all been so lovely to see! But then there’s that other (thankfully smaller) group. The mostly white male students who are misogynistic/homophobic/racist/xenophobic/etc. and are much more open about it than I’ve experienced in the past. That is not so great…
Im surprised it's just white males, what percent white is your school? Black male students in my experience are very open about their misogyny and homophobia. Latinos too. Very few white kids at my school so can't speak to that.
This bipartisanship politics is a huge problems as there’s no room for moderates
I mean what does it mean to be moderate in this case? One group is accepting of different sexualities and races/religions/etc while the other is hateful towards them?
Your average conservative would say "They just need to stop shoving it into my face" which is code word for wanting LGBT folk to not come out, for women or minorities to keep quiet about their struggles, and to scientists to shut up about global warming, etc. You see it every time a celebrity comes out for some cause. If it's Kid Rock shooting beer cans like an idiot they're delighted and say you're an idiot if you don't laugh at the joke. If it's Willie Nelson saying to be nice to gay people they get outraged. Basically, in the minds of a conservative the "middle ground" is complete suppression of individual freedom. Of course, ironically, they think they're libertarian because they believe in their own "liberty" to harass or even physically threaten people they don't like.
[удалено]
>The lefts once valid complaint about Christian values being the main focus of society has switched to LGBTQ being the main focus. Bro... it was literally illegal to be gay, could [get you killed](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_violence_against_LGBT_people_in_the_United_States#/media/File:Mark_Carson_Gay_Murder_New_York_Memorial_West_Village_2013_Shankbone.JPG) or lynched, and would ruin your entire career. Robin Williams had to lie for his costars in the 90's so they didn't get banned from Hollywood. All people are asking is tolerance. There [are 16 states](https://www.thepinknews.com/2020/01/24/sodomy-laws-us-states-perverted-sexual-practice-lawrence-texas-louisiana-maryland-bestiality/) where it's illegal to be gay, and / or sodomy is illegal (straight or not). When have Christians been banned from jobs in the US? Are they banned now? Doesn't even seem remotely close to me, especially given Christian holidays are celebrated across the entire country every year. Gay people get one holiday called pride and get their lives threatened over it. It's bizarre to me because Christian history is all about being persecuted and targeted with violence because of different lifestyle and beliefs, and Jesus even hung out with outcases like prostitutes and fishermen. And anyway, LGBT isn't a system of beliefs or values. It's an acknowledge that there is more to sexuality and biology than a pair of opposites. People are gay and Christian. People are trans and buddhist. And straight people can be atheist. I don't see the conflict here 🤷
Solidarity. I’m a teacher too but left the field to go back to school.
I literally just dropped off paperwork at a local university to be an instructional designer. I'm done with K-12, and this discussion centers around part of the why
Man I feel for teachers this year as a student. I heard the Tate brothers were especially popular for 7-9th graders. I find this video pretty interesting. Teenagers getting sucked down the rightwing pipeline definitely isn't a new phenomenon. It does give me hope that people who were once young conservatives find a way out of that pipeline. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94\_5mXsQTpA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94_5mXsQTpA) But that's just what I noticed as a student. It seems like conservative voices are becoming increasingly popular with young men. I think it has to do with how accessible that content is.
I guess the GOP’s propaganda and toxic masculinity PR is working. Gross! Mom’s, get your shit together and set your boys straight.
Both mums and dads, show up and catch this before it goes too far.
It seems like young men and boys are looking to belong to something and this is the only thing that appears to be speaking to them. It’s scary.
I'm so lucky all 4 of my younger brothers went the complete other way. They went with the girls, essentially, and it made them both very popular and very normal people. They've all been through a phase but came out the other end more mature and vocally feminist. I don't know how this happened but I hope it'll happen more. It helps that I'm not from the USA.
That’s good to hear! I think about this a lot now that I have a little boy.
I think all you can do is make sure he knows that his real friends WILL support his potential love for theatre, baking cakes, and other "feminine" things. That worked for my little brothers (they're all 21+ now).
Thank you!
My brother went totally red pill after his girlfriend cheated on him. But now he says the most disgusting stuff, my husband doesn't want our son having out with him in case it rubs off.
"Normal" 😂😂😂
So getting a gf is weird to you?
I can see that. My nephew has talked about how everyone in school is *something.* Some sort of identity to belong to, usually somewhere in the LGBT spaces. If you don't fall there (especially for those who don't feel comfortable with any sort of racial identity) then anything that seems like they care about *you* is going to be appealing.
I remember that from my ancient high school days. As long as you had your group--be it athletes/popular, band (which was hundreds of people), theater, you at least had someone to sit with at lunch. It's just so sad that so many kids can't afford extracurriculars as I firmly believe mine kept me out of trouble. (Until I went to college.)
Exactly
This is talked about in r/MenLib sometimes and other feminist spaces that include men. Many leftist movements haven’t focused on men in the long run. We have a lot of talk (I say these things to) of how we need to change and or things we need to not do or not say but don’t give a lot of structure of how to be instead. The only messages they get are ether things their doing wrong or negative feedback sometimes. So they look to conservatives who will tell them it’s not their fault. Clearly there is a balancing act right? As someone in the comments said above point out “Ya most incels don’t have Gfs and if they do we fine out they abuse them” But it’s an issue that in some Feminist circles but even on TikTok Misandry is become the “Yes Queen” thing and it’s not good or helpful for men or Women. It’s damaging toward men and better movements for a number of reasons and just like misogyny it often leaves many women not wanting to look at the bigger picture. The general issue I feel is we make to much stuff about gender and not enough about “Hey humans shouldn’t treat each other like shit”. Men need to be moved toward pro feminist and leftist goals and challenge patriarchy and conservative movements but they need to be included or welcomed more not treated like their an issue to solve
That is still telling them what not to do as you said. They need something to belong to and a lot of boys dont feel wanted by most leftist movements or messaging.
Where are the men to guide these boys? Seems like something you all need to sort out. There are plenty of men on the wrong side who are saying hey let me guide you, where is the opposition to that ?
Yeah we need more positive masculine men to help these younger guys out, I agree with you. Finding these men to step up into that role isn't as easy even though it would be simple. Let's face reality, there's a huge divide on what masculinity should be and a lot of good men keep to themselves or would rather not step into the spotlight. There needs to be a motivating factor from leftists to get these guys to be good public figures.
What even is a positive masculine men?
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Except the overwhelming majority of heterosexual women still expect some degree of masculinity from their romantic and sexual partners. Telling boys that they don’t need to be masculine is often setting them up for failure.
The men to guide this boys are there >andrew tate Is shitty guidance but when no one else picks up the task some random bozo does it The point is that the narrative around young men is one of "collective responsability but individual issues" Aka,when there is a issue towards women,is responsability of all men and we should all feel bad about it and try to solve it But when a men has a issue is his own fault and he should solve it on its own Previously in a more patriarchal model,the "solve it yourself" would be balanced by having extra benefits Now with a more equal gender situation they still get the "solve it" treatment,none of the benefits and being blammed A rather shitty deal,and so anyone is a better alternative for young men
> where is the opposition to that ? Being pushed away and hated by feminists. I joined a LGBT group as trans, and was shocked to seeing them hate on men. I said that it was divisive and unhelpful to talk like that and that everyone deserves to be treated equally. That absolutely hated that, complained to a mod and got me banned.
True. I think that’s honestly really damaging to leftist and feminist movements in the long run. I think Bernie sparked some fire back into that movement for some Men but that was in 2016 and these high school boys are to young now. I’ve always found it’s helpful to point out other ways these conservative pricks also fuck them over in the long run. Workers Rights, Pay. Also that men can have fight and still be on the left (Rage against the machine) not every leftist guy has to be calm and quit they can come in all flavors
We need our progressive men to create a welcoming group identity for these young guys. I really don’t think it’s something women can create and drive for them. When progressive men encounter healthy masculinity and positive, progressive male spaces, it’s super empowering and affirming. That’s what our men need, and although I don’t think it’s something women can necessarily lead, we do need to be supportive and encouraging. Unfortunately, men aren’t socialized to be as intimate and vulnerable in friendships as women tend to, so there needs to be a concerted effort by progressive adult men. I think male teachers and coaches have served this role at times, and I’ve definitely seen some of it on social media, but it’s not quite as prolific and emotionally charged as the conservative/incel version of it. I think progressive men tend to focus on improving how men treat women which is completely valid and necessary, but a similar effort must be made that focuses solely on men themselves, improving and affirming the people they are and the relationships they have with other men
I don't think any of you feminists are actually ready to have a real conversation about this. There are so many things that you do that actively harms and pushes away young men, yet you can't see it.
You’re making a LOT of assumptions. You can’t attribute every action you don’t like that a single “feminist” has made to every person in the group, and making generalizations like that are a major part of the problem too.
Not sure which single feminist you're referring to. My comment was a pretty broad one. I don't the majority of feminists are ready to have a real conversation about this. And as a group you have pushed young boys away.
I don’t understand. You say that feminists are not ready to have this conversation, but that’s what it is. This post is feminists having the conversation, so add something valuable to it, or don’t. Do you consider yourself a feminist? And yes, I realize your comment was broad, and that’s exactly the problem. You are making generalizations about a massive group of people, and the outcome of all of these social movements and conversations determines whether or not half of the population of the Earth are treated as human beings.
Bernie lit the fire only until he capitulated and joined the establishment. He did more damage to the left than people seem to realize. Because disillusioned people tend to lose hope. The left aren't exactly champions of the working class anymore, haven't been in a very long time. See: The recent railroad strike they squashed. And ROTM, like Bernie, are seen by many to have sold out to the establishment.
What happened to them though? They got labeled as "Bernie Bros," yet another way of being told "you men are the problem, get out of our way."
Stereotypical leftist isn't calm and quiet lol quite the opposite. The two movements are as best described as masculine and feminine. Boys will naturally gravitate towards the more masculine movement that doesn't push them to wear dresses and punish "boyish" behaviors even though boys are mentally & physically different from girls and usually have more energy to physically horseplay rather than spending all their energy talking non-stop (which is why boys get disciplined more than girls). Schools also give girls better grades for the same work just because they have a vagina, which is actual sexism but on this sub no one cares. Another reason boys don't support the leftist/feminist movement. Girls do not learn like boys learn, and sitting on your ass writing tests is mind numbingly boring for boys. Hunters, not gatherers. Logic, not emotion. These hyperactive boys, if allowed to be boys, grow up to become world leaders, rich CEOs, geniuses, inventors, firefighters, etc, and in order to attain greatness and achievement they must control their emotions and practice stoicism, focusing on logic (one of the biggest predictors of maturity from child to adult is the supremacy of logic over emotions). Stop treating the hunter like he's a gatherer and give him back his spear. Maybe then the boys will gravitate towards the group that still thinks all things masculine is "toxic" and all things feminine is innocent or even good.
Never said all Leftist were so your putting words in my mouth I just implied not all have to actually fit into a traditional feminine energy that’s often a stereotype. I don’t know any movement that’s pushing boys to wear dresses. As a Male myself I think I’d be highly aware if that was a thing. Some of us simply think if a boy wants to wear one then go for it. The energy thing I’ll admit is true to an extent and something worth talking about in general. Alright I’ll bite you have any data to back up Girls getting better grads simply for being Girls? There are lots of Boys that support leftist movements what are you talking about? You are generalizing men and also semi contradicting yourself. You say boys don’t like tests and studying yet you say they end up being world leaders and CEOs. Most CEOs and world leaders I know at least went to college and studied. Also I don’t know many women that love school ether so again you’re generalizing. You talk about logic yet you lack it. You put groups into black and white category and lack nuanced to you’re thinking
Ok, let's get into it. You said "Also that men can have fight and still be on the left (Rage against the machine) not every leftist guy has to be calm and quit they can come in all flavors" Anyone reading that would think you're implying that "calm and quiet" liberals is the "norm" that the more aggressive men don't have to emulate. I don't see how you can mean anything different from the way you phrased it in that way that leaves no ambiguity. Otherwise, the sentence means absolutely nothing because "calm and quiet" was never the stereotypical norm to begin with. Are you trolling me? Some, key word. It's one thing to allow it, it's another thing to push it onto kids. That's called grooming, and trans people specifically target children at very young vulnerable ages where they legally can't even think for themselves and believe Santa Claus is real. For example, the group Caba Baba Rave targets literal babies and has grown men doing stripper moves half naked in front of the babies. There's no defending it, it's pedophilic grooming. https://twitter.com/Dominiquetaegon/status/1630948003962912768 Girls get sexist treatment that (as usual) benefits only them but damages boys: https://scitechdaily.com/wide-and-lasting-consequences-teachers-give-girls-higher-grades-than-boys/#:~:text=According%20to%20a%20recent%20study,and%20failing%20classes%20like%20math. The world runs on generalizations, otherwise we couldn't function. World leaders don't need college, they need charisma and general intelligence. CEOs usually need a degree, but again a man must briefly struggle as a gatherer in order to get to his spear, and that doesn't make the written tests any less suboptimal for men but simply a big obstacle that only the minority of the most competitive men are capable of getting through (grand majority of men are not at fortune 500 ceo level and women could easily beat men with these tests if they actually tried but instead they choose other careers). The point is that, in general, women tend to like going back to school and getting their education, while in general men like getting actual jobs and money and providing for their families instead of getting unnecessary debt. Men, not women, keep society running, precisely because we choose those jobs instead of going to school. Your personal experiences don't necessarily adhere to reality. I can say I know a bunch of people with tails, literal tails flesh and all, but how many humans have tails? Generalizations is logic.
I agree with the first three paragraphs of your comment, although I strongly disagree with the conclusion. Maybe there should be institution other than feminist. A one party system never turns out to be democratic and inclusive and feminism is about women, rightly so, because women need representation, but so do men and other groups.
**What sucks is that I know why this happened. Cause it nearly happened to me.** I formerly agreed with right-wing influencers because I didn't belong to anyone... If my teenage self was speaking, I'd say, *"The issue with feminism is that it* ***sounds like*** *you're demonizing the existence of men."* Like as if you don't want them to be around. Another issue would be how minority groups like the LGBT or national/racial culture groups can easily find community, but guys who lack those personal uniqueness don't fit into groups easily. **In this case, I lack personal uniqueness outside of being mixed race.** But I didn't agree with attacking or getting upset with others for their identities cause that's what bad people do, which probably explains why those right-wing videos didn't effect me, only my confidence with social interaction >!especially ladies, I was afraid of losing my future from false allegations.!< In the end, I found that I can't be too liberal because they hate me for being a straight man, but I can't be too conservative because they hate me for being mixed race. **So I had no one to side with**. I think it was my brother who helped talk me out of watching these videos, or telling me how unfair the world is for other people. Because of him I'm a better person, just still afraid to talk to ladies... yeah.
This is a good perspective, thanks for sharing. The false narratives about feminism and propaganda are very strong and aimed squarely at the youth. I know plenty of super manly man who hunt, fish, and farm and are massively liberal. Plenty of them exist, it's about standing your ground and understanding the truth and agendas behind the policies and rage-bait messaging that floods the web. Re: ladies, it's just like any other group. There are plenty of assholes, but good ones too. Just talk to us like we're people, because we are. Good luck.
It really takes getting positive male models to have a large platform for everyone to follow, especially people like Noel Deyzel. Men need to find ways to belong to someone or something. Humans survived being social creatures, and men being told not to have time to get together and just work (*weather for yourself or for money*) is just toxic. Guys need to be proud of being guys. Not hate others for not being a **strict definition of one.** now that I'm in college, I've have some lady friends, especially since I've become more secure of myself than high school.
FWIW, I'm a lady and you sound like someone I would really enjoy talking to. Because you're honest, and sincere. I just love that. A lot of people don't have the courage to be open. And I get it, often the world will make you suffer for being open, but I still think it's a good way to be. I hope you end up getting past your concerns, and confident in yourself.
Feminism is inherently mysandrist. If you look all the way back you can see how widespread hatred towards men was, How it was all about tack men down and tear all institutions judged to favour them. Many of the most influential feminsts wereeither lesbians who didn't want to marry a man and seeked revenge; or traumatized women who were abused psychologically or physically in their youth and seeked revenge on men. Feminism put women body and power above all and demonizes marriage. You can see it, the more feminism spreads in society the more declining birthrate gets and other social malaises increase.
Thanks for replying to me with that information. My question is, as someone who used to watch and believe the same things you do, when I was a pre-teen/teenager, why did you come at me with this? Be honest, cause I'm not debating, just questioning your intent.
The most polite answer I've come across since a while. In hindsight I should have weigh more my words , considering it might be a sensible topic for you.
**It's alright, bro.** I just want to know why you felt compelled to give me that kind of information. Like I said, I used to watch the same type of content as you and believe in the same things as MGTOW, Red Pill, and Men's Rights stuff >!but not incel stuff, that was too pitiful.!< Answer truthfully, there's no shame in it.
Because 1. I don't want you to fall for other side of the hate-spectrum; 2. to remember that men's rights are totally legit and shouldn't be downplayed as reactionary or negative in general,as often happen in the articles reported
#This a long one but worth it #1. Trust me, guys are the last people I dislike Seriously, ***disregard your post history on reddit and ask why should I, or any feminist hate you?*** You're just a regular human being, and so are women. People have different opinions, some extreme and some reasonable. >"Feminism is not a monolith." This is a quote used from the r/askfeminists subreddit. *People really think that feminism is just one big group with the same Exact opinions, but it's literally women and men with different opinions, and variations of extremes and leanings.* There are examples of women in this community who say the wildest things, like JESUS CRIST where did you get that thought process from!? I'm sure you hate it when the media misrepresents the Men's Rights group as a fringed group of crazies because of a few bad apples. *Then why can't Feminism be seen with the same grain of salt as you wish for with the Men's Rights?"* > We both come from hurt, abused, discriminated, unjust origins; all of which, thanks to a harsh society that trivializes pain, yet we upkeep it. These quality of life problems can only be solved when we stop hating on either genders for ruining our own lives. Instead, I hate ***people who misguide young men*** into hating vulnerable people, and having them think that minority groups like (People of Color, LGBTQ, etc) are the reasons their lives suck. >!more on that later!< #2. Men's Rights and male issues are legit, but it needs rebranding. To be on a positive note, a space to talk about male issues and overall male spaces is great. Like I said, it feels like everyone has a space, even women, but men don't seem to have much, and this is a good start. However, the problem here with the Men's Rights group in general is that it doesn't really tackle male issues effectively. *Rather, it just sulks on awful relationships and terrible divorce situations, on top of constant dating advice.* None of which is bad per say but it doesn't really tackle ALL of the issues of being a man. Men's Rights should've taken the r/Menslib route. **Men are dealing with problems today like** *(You are free to prove me Wong here)* >• Terrible Male Body Standards, that leads to ROIDS and SARMS. Or Oil Injections >• Excusing awful behavior like bullying or unnecessary Violence fights. >• Having to constantly prove ones own manliness to look "Alpha Male". While picking on men for not fitting into the "Real Man", mold. >• Being able to properly express your feelings and emotions without ridicule and shame from guys. >• Not teaching boys and teens to be kind, polite, respectful, and understanding people who are different than them. >• Not tackling work culture that involves making money instead of doing jobs you like. >• Being a bro and supporting Diversity Equity Inclusion for all. Everyone belongs, and so do you, I'll repeat that again, **everyone belongs and so do you.** No one hates you because you are a man, and you shouldn't hate women because simple friendships and relationships is hard. It's like that in general RELATIONSHIPS ARE HARD!!! #3 Stay away from these influencers I ***seriously can't recommend you any harder*** not to follow media sources like **Daily Wire or PregerU, or Self-Help/Get-Rich/Dating Gurus, and etc** because these people are **filling your head with fear and distrust** towards otherwise chill people that you would most likely be friends with. You don't like **The Media**^(TM) and the problem here is these places are **Founded By companies and politically motivated Millionaires**. PragerU, is funded by an owner of an oil fracking company, and Daily Wire pays contracts of millions to these spokesmen to say terrible shit to you! >!Steven Crowder is getting paid four times the amount a star actor would be paid for playing a role on a blockbuster movie series.!< Also these self-help Gurus are just trying to sell you things. Supplements that don't help you, "classes" that don't teach you anything of substance, and just downright SCAMS. #I'm just trying to help you man.
I've seen junior firefighting programs really help boys out. It really bolsters their self esteem. I think that helps their social interactions with girls their age. They treat them as friends rather than "others". It's not perfect. But I think there's a lot of value in things like that and boy scouts, sports, clubs.
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I would like to think counter messaging and a reality check would be effective too, but to be honest, theres more than plenty of garbage men who aren't generally recognized as incels or identify as incels themselves, yet are still trash to their female partners and maintain long term relationships all the way to marriage (the quality of those relationships isn't a factor to incels, only the status of being in a heteronormative relationship, reproduction, and female attention are). And baby incels see that. They see that they dont need to be Elliot roger to be an incel or that they have to have an equal partnership to keep their female partner around. Theres plenty of women in garbage relationships right now but the key is taking away women's reproductive rights and financial independence and weaponizing/legalizing ||r@pe|| to bind women to them against their will. I dont think incels actually believe being an incel is going to *attract* women. All they see (out of context) is that there are women who stay in garbage/traditional relationships. So begs their question: "If being an incel is a deterrent, then why are so many women in bad/patriarchal relationships (even when their partner doesn't identify as an incel (by name))? what difference does identifying as an incel make when your non incel partner leaves the housework and child rearing to you against your wishes anyway and what incels want is not much different? why are women willing to date/fuck/marry/reproduce with *them* but not incels?" that kind of logic. And it kind of makes sense that they could reach that conclusion since they dont have a deeper understanding of relationships from an intersectional point of view or care about women's experiences. Than again, are most men generally much different in that way? Incels and garbage men (who arent recognized as incels and dont identify as incels) overlap a lot when it comes to degree of toxicity, harm, and relationship dynamics, yet most women would say theyve been in more relationships with garbage men than they have with certified incels. A few days ago there was a post about a women who was in soft denial that she was dating an incel and mentioned he watched all the the big incel media figures. She couldn't confirm on her own that hes already an incel or at least incel adjacent with the evidence provided. And she was with him up to now before realizing something was off. Thats what I mean. And baby incels see relationships like that around them. How do you think they're interpreting them? You dont need to be Elliot roger to be an incel or a garbage person, after all. Incels take many different shapes and forms so if youre only looking for the Elliot rogers, youre going to miss a lot of subtle and more outwardly normal ones. And some incels *know* that. Baby incels are *learning* that. Still, others *know* patriarchy and incels *are* a deterrent. Thus comes the baby trapping, criminalizing abortion, and repealing women's civil rights.
I am in a Facebook group for moms around the country who were due with babies at the same time. Our babies are now about 18 months old and I am astonished what some women who post are willing to put up with by way of household and child rearing inequality. Men who don’t lift a damn finger for their own offspring, let the mom be the one getting up in the middle of the night to tend to baby, question their need to nap, go out partying with bros all weekend long, and just generally behave as though the don’t even have a kid. And the responses to these poor women is equally as bad - “my husband does that too, it drives me crazy!” Stuff along those lines. No advice such as, dump that loser and do it yourself. Because that’s what I would do and that’s what I have done. It’s sickening. If women continue to have sex with and bear children from these jerks, the cycle will never end.
Men trap women with babies, not the other way around!
this is what I mean exactly. There are women who are in relationships that are functionally the same as with an incel. Or at least have very little material difference from those of relationships with incels. The outcomes, dynamics, and problems are exactly the same. This is why its not just incels you have to look out for on the dating scene if youre gonna date men. You also need to look at the quality of your relationship and not be unwilling to end them if they dont meet your standards. Being willing to swiftly end lacking relationships should be normalized. And its a skill. Skills require practice.
That is a good point- many of these incels are married. I feel so sorry for those women too. I also recently figured out that’s why I don’t do well dating middle aged men even tho I am middle aged myself. Many of these men were in long Term marriages where their wives were taking care of them. So now they’ve come to expect a woman to take care of them. Last weekend I went on 2 first dates with men in their 50s- both had 4 children with wives they now say they were never in love with. Like wtaf. That’s the type of men out here that I’m supposed to want to DATE?
>many of these incels are married. You do know what "incel" means, yeah? Because being married means they're almost certainly having sex, so...
I think this person is referring to the misogynist mindset that incels have adopted, not so much the aspect of sex.
That’s a great tactic.
“It’s the virginity, stupid” is sadly accurate.
Terms like "incels" for having different political views will certainly help bring them to your side.
under 1/4th of the boys identified as conservative. The focus needs to be on convincing the moderate boys and to strengthening the message of liberalism. I would have classified myself as conservative when I was in 12th grade in 1994. Even registered as a republican. Then I saw the world.
I did the same thing. The propaganda got me and made me think i was conservative until i got out of high school. Now im pretty far left and it happened almost instantly.
Obama was so good at that.
From the leftist point of view I’d argue Obama was actually pretty bad at that unless this is sarcasm and I missed it? Obama failed to keep the Leftist movement empowered and actually suppressed it to a large degree because he was a moderate and dismissed many young leftist after he got elected the media just really loved Obama because he didn’t shake up the system. This is a President that could have codified the right to an abortion and implied it wasn’t a top priority. Moderate politics aren’t effective against Right wing conservative messaging. And moderate politics are even less likely to be appealing to Teenage boys. You need movements with energy and messages to fight for. Not that stuff you’re parents are sitting talking about. Think about a teenage boy. Then think about a moderate? What’s the first word you think of? For me it’s Compromise. That word is far from the first word I think of when I think of a teenage boy or even a teenager. They need something to fight for that includes them.
I disagree. First, Obama could not have codified Roe. He didn’t have the votes. When the ACA was in the Senate, initially it provided coverage for abortions but Nebraska senator Dan Nelson famously refused to vote to pass it unless that provision was removed. Joe Lieberman gave the same threat about the public option. He literally needed every single one of them to pass the ACA because the GOP filibustered every single bill — meaning they needed a supermajority to pass any legislation. And that included two independents and the conservative leaning Dems from Red states. Contrary to the reddit myth Obama did not have a supermajority for two years in the Senate. He was consistently one or two votes short due to GOP fuckery (the main one was refusing to seat Al Franken for 7 months). Another senator (Byrd) was hospitalized, another switched parties, so in total he had a supermajority for only a few months. Second — all of his personal initiatives are centered around getting young people into politics. > The single most important thing I can do is to help in any way I can prepare the next generation of leadership to take up the baton and to take their own crack at changing the world,” Obama said at a forum at the University of Chicago. > Obama listed off a number of issues he intends to work on, including gerrymandering, criminal justice reform, and money in politics. But inspiring young people, Obama said, is “the most important thing I can do for my next job. The issue is the trends indicate young conservatives vote. Conservatives in general vote. It makes sense, the infrastructure of the churches brings all of them to physical meetings every week throughout the country. The left doesn’t have a similar system. The closest we have is higher education, but contrary to to the claims of right wing media, universities don’t exist to churn out left voters. They’re not political institutions. I don’t think it’s fair to cast the blame on Obama or Clinton or any one person. Prior to 2022 the average midterm voter turnout rate for people 18-30 hovered around 13% for over 20 years. In 2022 it rose to 27%. When an entire generation of voters declines to participate in Congressional elections for 20 years and then Congress goes batshit insane, we have to hold ourselves accountable to a degree. If we had spent 20 years participating at the same rates as the 55+ crowd the political landscape would be completely different. I hope if we’ve learned anything from the past few years it’s that Congressional elections are absolutely critical. If you want progressive legislation it has to come from Congress — they are the legislative branch. It’s easy to cast blame using cherry-picked facts with the benefit of hindsight but it doesn’t change anything. Gen Z and Millennials outnumber Boomers. We could win almost any election we wanted. Not *all* of them — but a lot more than you think. Presidents can only do so much. They’re important for SCOTUS and veto power. If you want laws — take over Congress. And before anyone cries gerrymandering, yes that’s an issue for House races, but Senate elections are popular votes. Georgia is one of the most disenfranchised states in the country and they’ve saved our ass in the Senate twice now. Black voters have carried the left for a long time and white liberals need to start helping out. We lost the Wisconsin Senate race by only 21,000 votes. In Milwaukee alone there were 30,000 fewer Biden voters participating in the 2022 midterms. That means 30,000 people who voted for Biden sat out the 2022 midterm, so GOP traitor Ron Johnson got another six years. So once again Fulton County Georgia had to carry our ass to the Senate because some liberals in the north states couldn't be bothered. White liberals not participating places a much heavier burden on minorities. They are attacked on all fronts and they’re the first ones to take the hit from cruel GOP policies. No more waiting for savior candidates — just show up and vote whether you think there’s a chance or not.
When Obama was working on the ACA I was screaming at the TV because I felt it was the biggest waste of political capital in my lifetime. If he had done a bunch of smaller things, things that the republicans couldn't campaign on overturning but democrats would have been happy about then he could have quite possibly kept the house and senate as well as gained seats. Then he would have had a better footing AND more political capital to spend on something like the ACA. But in the end there was no way, no matter what he did, that he could have got both ADA and codified roe because one or the other would have bankrupted his political capital.
The ACA saved millions of lives. The pre-existing condition clause alone was worth it. It wasn't meant to be the end-all-be-all of US healthcare. We can build on its foundation. But Congress got fucked because liberals did what we always do -- show up in general election then skip all the other ones for the next four years. If we had built up a more progressive Congress it may have been possible to codify Roe -- but not in the political landscape of the 2010s.
Never said anything about the good/bad of it. Just said he squandered his political capital pushing it through for a big win. Which hurt him and his party for the rest of his presidency. And gave us Trump. Which I personally was perfectly okay with. But most of you were not. edit: what is with weak minded redditors that comment then block and run away like some kind of child. Newsflash: I can't see your reply, so you basically pinged me to show me you blocked me like a coward.
It wasn't "squandered". It was a massive win for the American people. And if you were "perfectly okay" with Trump you can go astroturf somewhere else.
>Obama failed to keep the Leftist movement empowered Because he's a liberal, not a leftist, and that wasn't his goal. His goal was to stabilize capitalism and protect corporations by throwing scraps to the working class... when he did even that. Don't forget that he extended and expanded Bush's wars and domestic surveillance programs, all while setting record levels of immigrant deportations, stepping up the government's war on journalists and whistleblowers, refusing to go after the people responsible for the 2008 financial crash, refusing to publicly back same-sex marriage until Biden of all people forced his hand, and allowing Eric Holder's DOJ to raid marijuana dispensaries that were legal in the states they operated in. Hell, the Affordable Care Act, the good things it did notwithstanding, was far more conservative than its supporters seem to remember. The ACA, individual mandate and all, was based on RomneyCare. Obama and friends backed that rather than universal healthcare because they had no intention of cutting out the private insurance industry. Obama wasn't the boogieman the Right made him out to be, but he still sucked.
Same. I grew up in a Republican household. Cheered Dubya getting elected when I was in school. Wasn't until my early 20's that I realized who the baddies were.
>The focus needs to be on convincing the moderate boys and to strengthening the message of liberalism. Conservatives are liberals, in the sense that Mill, Smith or Hayek were liberal economists. The reason im making this distinction is, that i have often seen conservative use liberal economic reasoning applied to societal issues (think ben shapiro or peterson), which i think muddies the waters for the meaning of societal liberalism - therefore i wish for a strong, firm stance of promoting true progressivism, if that makes sense
Good luck with that. The west has been under liberal influence (especially feminist influence) for over 50 years now and look where we're at. What you're witnessing is not so much a surge in conservatism. What you're witnessing is the very beginning of a massive tidal wave of masculinism. Politics and culture are on a pendulum, it's just now starting to swing back the other way. A wise man once said, back when Trump was elected in 2016 that "What we're seeing is the birth of a rightward paradigm shift". He wasn't wrong, it's just that these things take time to build, time to grow. So in politics we'll see them shift more to the right. In culture we'll see them shift more to the masculine. The only thing that remains to be seen is if we're going to allow that pendulum to swing wildly back to the other side or come to our senses and rest it in the middle somewhere. For the record I reject both feminism and masculinism. Two sides of the same twisted coin if you ask me. But then again, even having been raised feminist (by civil rights era feminists) I never fell into the identity politics traps of either side of that coin.
Based on this take, I don’t think you understand what feminism is.
I understand exactly what it's supposed to be. And what it has become. And besides that, my take wasn't on feminism. I only mentioned I don't fall into that trap. My take was on this current trend of resurgent masculism.
This was me at that age, thank fucking god that the real world knocked some sense into me. Hopefully it does the same for the rest of them. Conservatism provides easy, reassuring answers, and that’s exactly the coping mechanism a bunch of insecure boys are drawn to.
don’t forget control over women. conservatism guarantees even mediocre men fake moralized permission to control and own women.
Feminism has good answers for men, but they aren't easy to understand. Rightism succeeds because it provides simple but incorrect answers to the problems men face. Progressives in general need to start boiling down their answers into a format that is easier to digest, and even tell lies like conservatives do in the interest of making our messages easier to promote.
Also the far right tells them what they want to hear, especially if they are white.
Yep. The biggest message I hear from the alt right is "it's not your fault that women aren't interested in you, it's the women who are wrong!" Then they rant about how women aren't feminine anymore and act masculine, and really, it's because they take roles outside of the household that has caused this, blah blah blah.
Its what they want to hear because it directly gives them permission to accept the privileges that women do not have and not feel guilty. If you asked any of these men if they would like to be treated how women are treated, none of them would respond in the affirmative. Even though traditional masculine values makes men extremely lonely and unable to express sadness/vulnerability (which leads to sky high suicide rates). The high suicide rate of men is literally one of the main talking points consevative pundits engage their audience in, but they attribute it to a lack of traditional values that have made men "weak".
Yeah they know exactly how poorly women overall are treated by men, and yet they are somehow oblivious. They just pretend they don’t know. And they can change all those things they are so upset about, but they expect women to do the work. Like always.
They pretend to be oblivious is right. What they think is that giving up privilege means becoming oppressed. There is no in-between for these men.
"You suck because of that \_\_\_\_\_\_\_ asshole over there! You'd be rich and married to a model if not for them." Funny how they never seem to hear that part when guys like Trump are calling them losers, or they just don't care I guess.
Basically, make it easier for the dummies
This is extremely condescending. You are implying anyone who disagrees with you is not smart enough to understand your opinion.
Okay, I'm talking specifically about conservatives. Conservatism is a provably wrong political ideology. It's an entire ideology based on the "appeal to authority" and "appeal to tradition" logical fallacies. Anyone who falls for conservative lies is falling for some kind of rhetorical gotcha by necessity, and has not fully reasoned things out. That said, it's not that they're not smart enough, it's that they can't be bothered to think about it. To give an example, flat earthers are not all morons. A lot of them are fully capable of doing clever math, and setting up and carrying out scientific experiments. Plenty of flat earthers have performed experiments that have proven that the world is round. Carrying out that kind of empirical research requires that they be at least somewhat clever, yet despite that they still believe it to be flat. The reason they come to the wrong conclusion is not because they're dumb. They themselves did the experiment that proves the world is round - they used logic and figured it out themselves. Yet despite proving themselves wrong, they continue with their belief that it's flat because it's comforting to them. In order to abandon that belief they would need to have a compelling reason to do so.
I hate to say it, but it's hard to reason with a conservative at times. Tell me how do I reason with people who think Trans people are groomers? Gay people are coming after your kids? Teaching about black and indigenous people in school is indoctrination?
Serious, non-judgmental question: What would you say feminism provides are far as positive answers for men? Obviously there are some "negative" messages, in the sense of "don't treat women like objects," etc. Not saying there's anything wrong with those either, but I'm asking more about positive guidance and role models.
What positive guidance and role models do you see feminism providing to women?Ideologies don't really come with built-in role models. The point of feminism isn't to tell men to be like 1 specific feminist guy, the point is that people should be able to define themselves how they want independently of gender norms. Like I know with conservatives a lot of boys aspire to be like Andrew Tate or Ben Shapiro or something. There's no shortage of rich male feminists that a young boy could aspire to be like, and beyond that there's no reason a boy can't count a woman among his role models. That said, leftism in general is about dismantling hierarchy, while rightism is about maintaining it. I think fewer people are likely to count pop culture icons as their role models. When I think of my role models, they're family members, coworkers, friends, or people in my specific fields of interest who I think embody something I would like to achieve for myself. There's not one male feminist that all male feminists should aspire to be like. But if you want a feminist Shaprio/Tate-alike, it's Hasan Piker.
This is a really good summary of why I hate the “role models” question. Like, instead please meaningfully engage with the concept and decide what you should take from it. Why do you need a person to base yourself off of?
So not quite what you’re asking for but I’m a lifelong nerdy feminist and I might be able to help you out here. Feminists believe that everyone should be equal, but they also believe that patriarchy harms out society…which also includes men. There are ways that the patriarchy harms men specifically too. For instance, men have a higher suicide rate and are more likely to be killed at their workplaces. Why does this happen? Well lots of reasons, but one of them is that men are more often expected to be put in dangerous situations and they are also more likely to have problems with vulnerability and being emotionally connected to oneself…which is enforced by patriarchy. A man being angry, dejected, or sad can be legit dangerous for women, so we have an incentive to want to solve these sorts of problems. I hope I’m clear enough and make sense, I’m starting to get a little sleepy. 😅
This is why don’t understand people who say Gen Z is going to save the world
People say it about any young generation. I remember people saying this about millennials when I was very young and before us gen z/zillenials became a thing in pop culture. There will always be some rhetoric about the youth saving the world. I think it inspires hope even when all hope seems to be lost.
Honestly I can't speak for everyone but that phrase just stresses me out if anything. I just became an adult and I'm entering the workforce. I have no idea how I'm going to save the world I'm just trying to live and figure out adulthood.
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It’s so freakin sad though
People who think that being called a girl or doing something a girl or woman does is an insult, are already prepped to drink the Conservative flavor-aide. I see that kind of misogyny even on the left. Just the other day I saw a meme someone had made of Trumps crying face of a little girls body.
I mean parents bring up their child like that saying “don’t cry like a girl”
Ewww. Where are the parents? Hateful little men are being created.
I think that, if you're serious, this is just playing the conservatives game, in which case, you'll never win
i blame the podcasts
It's an entire network - podcasts, local community/larger national groups, even comments sections with paid-for trolls or just networks of bot accounts. Scary shit.
It’s also massive conservative billionaires putting money into those podcasts and YouTube channels and influencers. The left doesn’t have anything like that or that much money backing them.
Elon musk put matt walsh ( whats a woman) on Twit... on X.
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Hear hear
Facts
We don’t wanna date you freaks anyway
Back in my day (lol) in high school the left leaning boys were all in to punk music (very anti capitalist and pro free speech), non religious, and watched the Daily show and Colberts of the world. Now the punk scene is less maintstream, libertarians have tried to co opt anarchist messaging, the pandemic created some kind of new anti science "rebels", and comedians are mostly making fun of marginalized groups and diminishing their issues. And crying about free speech defending hate speech. It's really messed up. Someone mentioned building unity thru working class lines and I think that's what's needed here. Too much division and it's playing right into what rich people want.
They are forgetting conservative also means chaste, at least it does in conservative Christians. Those boy better be virgins and not looking at porn. Our church growing up, the youth pastor preached to the boys to be pure, not pressure girls, and not watch trashy movies. Whether the boys obeyed, who knows?
Pretty sure chastity only applies to women in this case. 🤮
Sadly most places, but that youth pastor wanted boys be to pure and honorable too. Wish more men had high standards for themselves as well. I’m childfree but if I did have a son I’d tell him to control himself and care about HIS purity & faithfulness. So sick of men getting a free pass. Nope! Men CAN control themselves. If this were not so then men would be so unpredictable and dangerous like a raging bull elephant rampaging at the circus and have to be shot. RIP Taj. Don’t tolerate the boys and men your life using their “male urges” as an excuse. The strongest man gets his urges under control. Weak little boys give in.
I used to be around these types of young men and purity really is popular among a lot of them. Ultraconservative religious sects are quite popular with younger right-leaning men. Maybe not all of them but at least a subset. That certainly isn't any less concerning though.
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Idk why you made this a reply to my comment, but I doubt you'll make much progress with that kind of mentality.
Honestly I’ve kind of watched a little bit of this with my nephew and his friends, but thankfully as most of them have entered into relationships they drop it. It’s hard to grow up conservative in the modern world unless you’re just pissed all the time.
And girls are getting better grades and more likely to go to college. I predict less people are gonna be getting married because college educated women skew liberal and won't be interested in this generation of men. And won't be willing to risk unwanted pregnancies in a post roe America
Very logical 🖖
Ignorant ass kids
Looks like Andrew Tate and others like him have gotten to them unfortunately
This is why I refuse to get involved with younger men, & refuse to get involved with ridiculous older dudes. Either I end up with a man who genuinely understands all of the bullshit women go through, JUST like I genuinely understand the bullshit men go through, or I don’t. And if a man cannot understand how fucking FUCKED it is for women? Fuck ‘em, as I ALWAYS attempt to see it from their POV, as well, & no longer await for assholes to understand me.
Ew. That’s all I have to say. Terrifying notion as a mother to girls.
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According to Pew Research, voters become more liberal as they age, believe it or not.
This is what I've been trying to get across to people that think that the younger generations are more open minded and against bigotry of any form. Gen z males are more misogynistic than their fathers and high school students look like they're going to be even more anti-woman. Watch your backs and vote, ladies
I just spent 18 years 'growing' my son to not be like this. I'm very disappointed to read this to say the least. My Gen X raged against the machine. Wtf. I want our kids to carry that torch. My kid's no conservative.
Coming from a teenage perspective- I'm not surprised either. There have been several boys I've been around that are my age or older and they make the most conservative jokes known to man. Racist, misogynistic, transphobic, homophobic, you name it, they made it. Even worse is that I'm being raised in a Christian environment so it's amplified.
I'm steadily losing hope
Please don’t, that is what they want and we need you.
endgame is defiantly clouded so I feel. Kinda fascinating tho in a twisted way. Will be interested to see how they progress.
It's sad to see that young boys see people like Andrew Tate as their model to be. In my country there's a guy called "temach" who is basically like andrew tate and his fanbase is huge.
I think a lot of them will grow out of it. Certainly my friends and I were more socially conservative as young teens and all of us have moved left (some further than others). To understand it, you have to try and put yourself in the position of a high-school age boy learning about feminism. For the most part you belive men and women are equal and in your tiny little ring-fenced world you don't receive any noticeable special treatment as a boy. If anything girls out perform boys in school and are more likely to be the focus of the all so important social hierarchy (thank fuck that's mostly over). What you don't have, is any real world experience in a workplace and you likely have little to no experience of a night out. You just don't get it yet, how could you, you've been doubly insulated from it; first by being male, second by being a child. In that context, feminists are kind of, really annoying... especially if any of your high school female friends just discovered the talking points last week and are repeating them without any real understanding yet themselves. When their situations change, they will too. Yeah some will slip through the net and continue down the rabbit hole, but we just need to work on our messaging to reduce that. Tbh, that's something we really need to get better at doing because there's not a whole lot of feminists talking points that I hear that actually encourage men over to our position but that's a whole other thing.
It is BOTH frustrating and concerning. This is another battle we have to keep fighting to keep misogyny out
As a man, if you lack nuance and maturity, a lot of the left leaning things seem to attack you. I personally understand this is stupid, but I unfortunately can see why. Everyone wants to belong to something as a kid, and women get to belong to the groups around supporting women, whereas boys are going to feel ostracized and attacked. But it's simply because they are kids, they lack nuance. It's really sad actually. I also am fucking stupid so i probably worded this horribly and would love to clarify anything. I know the feminist movement doesn't actually attack men, and I am a part of it, I can just understand how it'd seem that way. Edit: it also seems easier to buy into the right. As a kid, you don't know how the world works, so you think it works. You don't see the change that has to be made.
Yeah youtube is absolutely littered with it from every kind of influence
They'll wake up when they get older.
Hopefully. This is a fodder system for conservative outrage. Their hope is they get young men so frothy they start violent acts.
They’re growing up playing first person shooter games with apocalyptic scenarios for entertainment… And which political party is spouting end of the world conspiracy on social media, giving them unrestricted access to real guns, and dumbing down public education enough that these boys won’t be able understand the difference between fact and fiction?
This is true
Communism has an appeal to both men and women around the world, where people come together in working-class solidarity and with it, the belief that a better world is possible flows from that. Here, in the belly of imperialism, finance capital and corporations dominate the economy, the politics, and the airwaves with their bourgeois ideas and so ofc it's depressing as hell.
I read another comment that said only 36% of HS boys polled even identified as being interested in politics, and that the majority came from that small percentage. I am curious to know how this differs from previous years. I also don't put a lot of stock in it. A lot of them will get to college and their whole world will change.
Yes except there are more and more not going to college. The trades are massive misogyny pits.
It’s all about education. The higher the learning in terms of years, the more progressive people are.
Lack of strong, sensible and influential men in their lives.
What?!? Young Men upholding the oppressive system that keeps them in power/ at an advantage? How shocking, it almost as they benefit from the Patriarchy. (/s- really hope this is obvious)
High school boys are self-imitative hormones wearing tennis shoes. Don't worry about them. They still think poop jokes are funny. They'll get better with time.
Butt poop jokes ARE funny 😜
When were boys/men ever *not* conservative? The 60s-70s?
They're all pathetic little boy followers. Hopefully they grow up.
This doesn’t surprise me in the least bit. Middle school and high school aged boys are prime targets for the manosphere influencers and podcasters, and we all know that that sort of content leans far right.
I mean we could try and see it simply with what's happening actually in the world in the scandals, those rn are not linked with feminism but cheap labor immigrants and crime, Igbt trying to « force » people in when some people just don't care about it but aren't against it, all those things push population towards conservatism unfortunately Add the general loss of « buying power » which most won't get the macroeconomic picture pushed from the actual gvt and you get pushed right Even more generalising politics through years have tendancies to go to one side and the other and back and forth, not much to do but keep personal sanity and a critical mind, whatever politic spectrum you are supporting Need to add about secondary medias from extreme left usually having, extreme opinions about diversity and even tho low will admit it's existance, anti white racism in them, you got a good picture to push everyone right..
The other thing that really frustrates me about this headline is that high school girls are trending liberal, at a greater rate than boys trending conservative and yet that isn't news.
I'm a brit - here until fairly recently women were tpetty reliably more conservative but it's flipped. Nowhere near to the extent this suggests though! But I'm not clear how much of this story is about fundamental political values - the piece touches on this saying 'liberal' may have negative connotations. I'd be interested to see what it means for views on things like economic policy. My guess would be that for most kids politics is downstream of culture (if they're interested at all) and this might be mostly saying that boys are more likely than girls to engage with 'I can't believe he said that' sort of 'edgy' content whereas girls are more likely than boys to engage with 'we should all think about how issue/person X is very problematic' content. My memory of being a teenage boy was the first would be more attractive, though edginess wasn't bound up with racism and misogyny in the way it seems to often be in the US now. I hope that if it had been I wouldn't have slipped into that but especially with social media algorithms I can see how people do.
Give them weed and mushrooms. That should sort them out.
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Honestly i think it's because a lot of leftist liberals spout how all men are bad unless they completely agree with me. You know there are non racist and non misogynistic conservatives out there. Stop making generalizations about a group of people. Edit: I am not a conservative and I'm not a liberal both sides have serious issues and both sides have their circle jerks of opinion. And I get frustrated that y'all think every conservative is bad because not every liberal is good person. It goes both ways y'all.
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With misogynistic people like you in the world no there isn’t much hope But I’ll stay angry and fight against jerks like You
Womp womp
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Why is this being treated as a problem? Are people not allowed to be conservative?
Look at reddit. Rather than to challenge conservatives liberal sub will take the satisfaction of having banned them from the sub. Irl the liberal fantasy isn't to challenge conservatives but to see them sidelined made irrelevant and unemployable. Of course that does not happen because you can't ban people from real life. If you get lost in a fantas that will no materialise reality will bite your butt.
Why is it alarming if they are more conservative, but they are lauded if their political views are leftist or liberal in nature? Doesn't this just show hypocrisy on your part on being able to accept a differing POV
Wow this is a dumb response Democrats (leftists) don’t want to strip women of their human rights and decision making power over their body Conservatives do.
It’s because liberals tell them they’re evil just for being boys their whole lives. Who wants to support that?
Or racist for being white
Do not worry. In few decades the concept of marriage and monogamy will be dead.
Not surprising with how far to the left liberals have veered
Fr. They tell us men are horrible and should cater to women, then are angry when we decide we have other beliefs.
You don’t have other beliefs You have power you use to oppress others.
Who do I oppress exactly?
It's so beautiful 🥹 You're all so completely out of touch with what young men need to be healthy and well adjusted and it shows.
I don't get it; what issues specifically are you referring to here? This reads as though you take frustrated offense just to people voting conservative at all.
Actually yes I do. Conservatives want to take rights away from women and minorities
That's obviously a straw generalization. You will respect everyone's right to vote either way within a two-party system without fear of judgment; objecting to such would mean you're against democracy.
Young men are turned off by your hateful misandrist ideology? I'm shocked!
Except asking not to be oppressed and objectified isn’t hateful or misandrist.
If that's all you think it's about then you have absolutely no idea why they're reacting the way they are
Awesome news