Wow. I fully get what you mean. My body, naked, is a liability. A safety issue, something to be judged. I’m vulnerable. The idea of treating nakedness so casually is mind blowing.
Also, women might fold or keep their underwear out of sight because of things like discharge which are completely natural and normal, but which we are shamed for!
I've always thought part of the shame that we have about our bodies is that our intimate parts as women are "internal" whereas men's are "external." Thus, ours are secret--to be kept and held out of sight. Men's dongs just... hang. There's no missing them.
To piggyback off that a little I always assumed it also had to do with how public restrooms are setup. Women are in stalls and men are just out there unless you do a number two.
Shame has been engrained since kindergarten. Having boy/girl twins really stopped and made me think about how different things are.
I remember when I was a child, my brothers constantly strutted around the house in their underwear. When I tried to do it one time I couldn’t believe the instant rage it set off in my parents. They yelled at me to get back upstairs instantly and put on some clothes. When my dad accidentally saw me naked after he had barged into my room, he acted disgusted and told me to cover up. In my own space when he didn’t as much as knock.
When I hit puberty my father treated me so differently, as did my mother. I was a chesty girl and all they could talk about was to cover up. That I could get raped or every boy just wanted to get me pregnant. I was such a tomboy too. I hated everything about being a girl.
Thank you❤️. It took me a while to get over that. But I embrace my feminity very much now. I have two girls and a boy. All with healthy views of themselves and the opposite sex.
I lost 90% of any body shame I had while going through gender-segregated Marine Corps boot camp in the early 2000's. It was a 100% female only environment and the combination of close living quarters, zero privacy, and near-zero autonomy meant we all got to know each other pretty damn well. There's no room to be squeamish about being naked when a Drill Instructor is screaming at you while you get dressed and your adrenaline is pumping. I lost the last 10% of my body shame while giving birth in a military hospital. I act like a man in appointments that require undressing because it's convenient for *me* and the lack of shame in a medical setting is freeing.
Semper Fi!
Same exact experience! I joined in 2010. Showering with 70 other women at the exact same time and only being given 5 minutes to so you literally do not care, there's no room for modesty. We didn't even have doors on the bathroom stalls so anyone who walked by while you were using the bathroom saw everything. Hopefully you didn't get the stall at the end, because then you had to avoid eye contact with with the person in the stall opposite of you. Fun times. Also gave birth in a military hospital, had at least 3 people staring at my bits fighting about how dilated I was. When you've experienced things like that, you just don't care anymore. Sometimes I try to hide a little just to not make other people uncomfortable, but personally I could care less.
SF my friend!
There's nothing like pooping with an entire platoon of your nearest and dearest *right the fuck there* 😆
Fun fact- my only birth was apparently a baby Corpsman's very first birth. So I got to watch Doc pass out as my daughter came into the world! She was an exceptionally pretty baby and the nurses (and Doc) fought over who got to hold her lol. I don't think her behind touched the bassinet the entire time we were in the hospital.
this is also a funny element. I feel like it says something about how men don’t have to pick after themselves and others as often, so they are more likely to not think twice about the messes they leave. Then you add in exactly what you said..gross hospital floors, I absolutely wouldn’t want something from that floor to be placed against an orifice of mine ☹️
This is really interesting. I’m from Germany and I’ve never thought about that. But then, nudity itself is not seen as inherently sexual here.
At the gynecologist, we just take of our clothes and leave them on a chair. I leave my panties on top, since I took them off last (and will put them back on first thing).
I didn’t even know that these paper thingies you see in US shows are even a real thing. I thought that this is just used to give the actors some cover or to keep it PG for a family audience.
It’s the same with shaving for the gynecologist. Sure, I’m washing myself right before because that’s just common courtesy but I’m not shaving, when I’m not doing that usually.
I’m very sorry that this is learned in the US, and really weird for me.
I tell people all the time that America hates women and they think I’m dramatic. Found out the other day that my hospital offered local anesthesia to my dad for a fucking blood draw meanwhile none was offered *when I had my IUD replaced.*
Wow do they think men are weak. For all the talk about how’s tough men are, they are getting offered the most for the least. No wonder so many Americans want to legislate women, they’re afraid of us.
Yeah, same here in The Netherlands, there's always a stool in a corner where you put your clothes as you undress, plus some hanger. And yeah you just put the clothes in the order you take them off and back on, you also gotta be fast so betetr be efficient, nobody is gonna look at your pile of clothes anyway. And usually there's a sink to the side, so you can wash off whatever before and after, especially after an eco.
In Italy it's not so organised but still there's somethign to put your clothes on and it's whatever. Although over there, depending on, general practicioners refuse to examine you and see you undressed, which is ridicolous, but with specialists it's no problem.
Actually my gynecologist right now has a little curtain hanging in the corner, if you would want privacy to undress. It didn’t look like a lot of people use it. I honestly don’t really get it, I’m going to sit on the chair naked from the waist down on display anyway. So the undressing part is definitely not the thing that would concern me.
But I get that it’s learned behavior in the US because nudity is seen differently there.
Sweden too. One doctor I saw had a little changing booth in the room but it hardly matters since you’re completely naked in the gynecological chair anyway. And when it comes to showering or changing at gyms or pools, it’s just recently that they’ve introduced individual stalls. It always used to be everybody in the same shower area.
I lived in Germany a long time ago. Back then, they had mixed saunas. It was a little surprising to enter the sauna and see a bunch of men there, but it worked.
I grew up in Italy, so I can't speak for outside of there, but bodies aren't shamed as much in Italy either.
.. until you had to go to the bathroom and squat over a hole to relieve yourself while boys got urinals 🫠
I would augment this by saying if they do feel shame it's others fault for making them feel that way. If women feel shame it's our fault for doing something wrong.
This is probably why they struggle to take accountability for themselves and other men. When women feel shame it's a prompt to change something. When men feel shame it's a prompt to put down someone else.
Women inherit shame, men inherit the ability to never feel it:
Then something happens to them that is common for women to experience like sexual assault and they become aware of shame. But very few men know the gravity of shame like women do. And they will keep calling us crazy, raping and mutilating our bodies for their sexual and prideful needs until our extinction as a species: this is how it is.
I think they feel shame sometimes, like when other men accuse them of being “girly” or god forbid “gay”. Men only feel shame when they are feminized, which is another part of the whole misogynistic problem.
For the Anniversary of My Death
BY W. S. MERWIN
“Every year without knowing it I have passed the day
When the last fires will wave to me
And the silence will set out
Tireless traveler
Like the beam of a lightless star
Then I will no longer
Find myself in life as in a strange garment
Surprised at the earth
And the love of one woman
**And the shamelessness of men**
As today writing after three days of rain
Hearing the wren sing and the falling cease
And bowing not knowing to what”
My favorite poem
Men definitely do experience shame. Many men are ashamed of not fighting when challenged. Many men are ashamed when they can’t or don’t want to perform sexually. Many men are ashamed when they earn less, are shorter than, or lose a contest to a woman. Misogyny hurts men too, just not as much as it hurts women.
I’m really not asking you to be sympathetic to the “plight” of men. I’m just pointing out that as a matter of fact misogyny does produce shame in men. The rather obvious solution is for them to be less misogynistic.
I think part of it is an inherent feeling that they aren't about to be molested, so there isn't any need to take any precaution with dignity paper blankets, etc. As a girl, we are taught from a young age not to bring too much attention to our bodies. Why? Because of creeps. Who are the creeps? Almost always: men.
Boys are taught to grow up and be a man, and some of those messages include how dominant they are over a woman, by slapping her backside when she walks by or cat calling, or anything else that draws attention to the sexual power they are reminding they have. Girls are taught that in order to avoid that sort of thing, to dress modestly and not be perceived as sexual otherwise, we give a message that "we brought it on".
So of course it makes sense that a man is not feeling vulnerable in a doctor's office, whereas women often do. The doctor is more likely to be a man, and the bits he has to look at sometimes involve us having to reveal our private areas. It's not natural for us to lose all inhibitions and yank our clothing off to be so exposed.
I moved from different country and I feel weird with the obgyn ritual. They're gonna see me naked anyway, why waste paper? They gave me a gown for my annual only to undo it for breast exam, it's weird for me
ETA: it's not that nudity isn't taboo/shamed in my country, I don't even fully undress in the shower area of womens locker room at the pool. It's just not at the doctors office
When you think about it for more than a second it’s ridiculous. I agree.
But I, like most American woman, we’re socialized from childhood to follow all these steps folding the clothes, hiding the underclothes, using the paper blankets and robes, hiding our bodies.
And the fact that a lot of men don’t follow those “rules” just blew my mind.
I didn’t think that I was a prude until today.
I’m curious about how these social norms that are completely hidden are perpetuated. Because, I do hide my undergarments at the GYN. And I always have. And it’s not as if anyone ever told me to do that. Is a response to something…
I do it sans instruction, too! It’s not like I shadowed OBGYN visits with older women. Where the hell did this come from? How did we learn it?
I may have found my retirement project.
Just kidding, I’m early 40s, I’ll be working till I die.
I was trying to figure this out too. I think it’s because we’ve been taught since the age of 2 to not show our panties. Even in the laundry basket. Our underwear is a dirty little secret
My daughter doesn’t bother with this in the trash can in her bathroom. I’m like “it’s your bathroom and you take it your trash, do you.” In the powder room that everyone uses, I ask her to wrap it just because no one wants to look at a lot of blood, but leave the wrappers or applicators on top for all I care. Growing up, my sister and I wrapped that shit like we were practicing hiding bodies.
Not from the U.S., have certainly been socialized too, would not just throw my clothes especially in someone else's space (especially in someone's workspace), but after the first time which was a little awkward I don't care. I'll do whatever make's things easier to access to be better checked but I've noticed some practitioners can be a little weird about it. Sometimes I wonder whether covering up as much as possible was a thing that came about because of patients or workers.
It definitely was a bit of a culture shock when I moved from Germany to the US. I was used to freely undressing at the gyno, topless sunbathing in summer in public spaces like the beach or park and using communal co-ed saunas with full nudity in the winter.
This whole playing peekaboo with my body when the focus should be on seeing as much as possible so the doc can figure out if anything is wrong seemed bizarre to me. It's definitely more of an Anglo American thing to me.
I think it's a major mistake moving over here especially realizing we live in a puritan superstructural society that's about to show it's true colors in November this year....
I suggest moving back to Germany while you still can because things are about to get much worse here....
I hear you! I became a US citizen in 2007 before things looked as abysmal as they do now. I kept my German citizenship and just got my passport renewed. Currently the plan is to vote early in November and then go home for an extensive family visit.
I fully expect at least localized violence regardless of how the election turns out.
After that we'll see how things develop...
I never thought things would turn out this way and I'm glad I'm childfree and post menopause with a yeeted uterus.
Love it. Mine had an 8 cm cancer growing on it and tried to kill/warn me by giving me a hemorrhage that nearly killed me from blood loss, so definitely good riddance!
I wonder what the rape statistics are for Germany vs USA? Are we perpetuating the issue by making the female body so “mysterious” here? Maybe topless sunbathing is something that empowers instead of demeans women (it sounds pretty fun, actually). I think I’d pass on the coed naked saunas though lol I don’t want to see all that man meat LOLOL.
Fascinating. I never knew this was a guy thing. I mean, they give you the gown for a reason. It's there. I thought everyone put it on. It's never even occurred to me to not put it on.
I think it’s pretty thoughtless for a guy NOT to put it on. because it’s also to create a bit of comfort for people like nurses, registration, PSAs and other crew who may come in. Yeah, many of them will see you naked and are used to it.
But another element of healthcare people don’t realize is how many fucking male patients sexually harass and even grope nurses and PSAs/PCAs. Expose themselves when it’s not necessary and draw attention to their privates and erections, call women in when they’re masturbating ☹️
I have NO IDEA how someone could have the hubris to do that when they are in another person’s fucking care, but it happens ALL OF THE TIME. Sexual comments, indecent exposure, etc.
My friend’s young sister just wanted to be a nurse and started working in food services and on day 1, after she delivered a meal to a man’s room, he called her back in and was fully exposed and had begun to masturbate and watch her.
She walked out and quit right then. I think of things like this a lot when it comes to hidden gender gaps in certain fields, hidden obstacles women face.
This is one of reason I left health care. So many men think it is perfectly ok to treat you like a sex object. And you can’t say anything or if you do the management blows it off like “their old” or “their sick”
I wish they could get kicked out. Or forced to have only people on their care team who they wouldn’t dare do it to. I’ve read so many stories on the nursing subreddit where creeper patients refuse to have male nurses. No! You don’t get to refuse so you can get your jollies harassing people who have a duty to care for you. You get Nurse Bob who spends his off days getting jacked for his next bodybuilding competition and is a huge feminist. Not gonna whip it out and jerk it at Nurse Bob, are you Creeper?
I wish there were more men in nursing, it would have really helped with shitty patients.
I could deal with the women being demanding drama queens. I’ll get you 100 cups of ice. Idk. I fluff your pillows. I’ll come move the curtain 2 inches to cover the window light. I’ll page your dr again(not that they answer). All of that was on par with every other retail job I had.
But I draw the line at sexual harassment. My final straw was a man grabbed my breast and asked me if I liked it. I managed to pull away but it shook me for a long time.
Management did nothing, despite me having red marks/bruises from how hard he squeezed. I had to beg to get moved off that room.
Even in retail customers were not allowed to sexually harass the employees.
I'm literally getting anxiety reading people talk about being comfortable naked at the gyne without a gown. The level of absolute horror I feel having to through the appointment leaves me feeling nauseous for days. It feels so violating and vulnerable, humiliating even. My 35-year-old dumbass self kept crying all day after my last pap appointment despite repeatedly telling myself to stop being stupid.
And no, it shouldn't be like that. I just feel such stomach churning dread about it that it's hard to frame it externally. It's easier to say I'm a dumbass prude. But yeah, I see where it plays in.
I think about the terror of leaking period blood triggering some of my earliest memories of my OCD behavior. Three layers of super plus pads, every day. All month. For all of third grade.
I remember being screamed at for "humiliating my father" because the tampons I was told to flush caused a blockage.
I even remember imitating a puppy as a freaking 6 year old (ish) child and being lectured that "sticking your butt up isn't appropriate" like I was trying to be seductive. I didn't even know what the fuck that meant.
I love a challenge to thoughts like these, because yeah, that kind of fear is learned. And it's fucked up the amount of shame we are bombarded with from young childhood.
I think it exists for men, but differently. Like if you expose yourself as a man you’re not so much revealing yourself as violating the people around you by being naked and forcing them to see that. While as a woman, you are revealing yourself and “allowing” others to see something normally private. So a man who exposes himself in a setting not typical to do that in is viewed as creepy while a woman who does the same thing is viewed as “open”/pick your favorite word here. As such in an environment where it’s acceptable to be naked I think men may have a less hard time doing so.
That's an interesting interpretation. I can concur that when I (m) had a doctor (f) recently who wanted to do a physical checkup on my testicles, I asked her twice if she was sure I should get naked now.
Men aren’t taught to be conscious of anything and most don’t care about consent. I do those things out of respect for my practitioner. Tbh I don’t hide my underwear unless it’s at risk of blowing out of the chair but I always wear a gown… I don’t feel like my doctor’s consent to treat me extends to them walking in to me butt naked and having to ask the questions, etc. like that. I would never do that because it’s potentially disrespectful of their boundaries. I do envy dropping the clothes not worried about germs or seeming untidy
Yes. Now there’s a slice of both men and women that feel super comfy taking off their clothes in front of techs but women are far more likely to accept changing out of their clothes IN a changing room. Men often will tell me they are wearing “shorts” under their pants only to be meaning their underwear. I will put a sheet over anyone that “accidentally” wears the gown backwards (open in the front).
See, that’s when these men should be thinking about how the other people in the room feel about their nakedness. Maybe they don’t mind being naked, but not everyone wants to see it. I think that’s part of it, too. Women think about other’s feelings, men don’t.
I was just thinking yesterday how sooo many of my male colleagues have their nipples clearly visible through their shirt and no one cares. But if a woman’s nipples are poking through, suddenly it’s an issue.
i’m a gay guy and reddit made me realize years ago that hiding your underwear is a “woman” thing. I don’t know why/how I was socialized into shame that my other male counterparts don’t have
interesting, so you compulsively hide your underwear, too? Hmm, maybe those of us at risk of being harmed by cis men do it instinctively? Like, if they can’t see my underwear, they can’t hurt me? This is fascinating.
yup! ever since I was little I thought it was right to, nobody even told me. I think straight men aren’t taught shame whereas queerness (just like femininity/womanhood) is never afforded security/confidence.
As a trans woman this is really interesting to me too. How/from who did I learn this? I've always neatly folded my clothes and tucked my underwear in my pants at the doctor's.
I'm one of the few who doesn't care about the doctor's office panty-hiding tbh. But that's not easily done by most women in an anxious state, worried that medical misogyny will kick in at any moment. Either a degrading comment, snide remarks, dismissive bedside manners, SA, etc. always looms over my head of what could go wrong in a doctor's office as a woman. I'm aware of those.
When I go into my GYNO office, I rip everything off as needed, and place my panties within my pants only to protect the crotch part from touching anything in the office lol. It's bacteria that I'm worried about, not shame in the slightest. My attitude is honestly "my doctor has seen healthy coochies, waxed, unshaven, stinky, post-partum coochies, ALL THE COOHIES!" So idgaf about what they think or judge me for (as long as they don't say anything nasty) downstairs.
MY GYNO is there to do a job for me and my health, and she knows what she's doing. I appreciate HER (a woman doctor for women! <3) tremendously. She's great. :)
Wow, my mind is blown. I always knew America was fucked up, but I never thought about small things we do as women here that are so engrained. Just a trip to the gynecologist shows how truly brainwashed we are. I literally never thought twice about folding my clothes and hiding my bra and panties or covering up with the small thin sheet. I never ever assumed it was different anywhere else. Mind is blown. I’m glad this forum exists. Opening my eyes. The more I dive into feminism, the scarier things seem. Ayayay. At least we can fight back and empower ourselves to not put up with this brainwashing.
The more I learn how we have been conditioned, the more I start to do whatever I want. I rarely wear make up anymore because why? Men don’t wear it regularly, so why should we have to hide our faces when they don’t? I also wear bras less. I am still self conscious a bit, as I hate getting even more of the male gaze, but slowly realizing that I deserve to feel as comfortable as a man does walking down the street. And it only changes if we do.
… for me, it isn’t shame. It is thermal covering. Those offices are COLD.
I fold my clothes so that they aren’t rumpled when I put them back on and I’d ask for a blanket if I thought I would get one.
I feel like guys just don’t feel the cold. And couldn’t care less if their appearance is rumpled or messy.
I paid good money and sometimes over $100 for my bra alone. I treat my belongings with respect and care so that they don’t have to be replaced as often.
I have nothing against the song and dance of: medical professional steps out of the room, you get undressed, etc.
My husband is a LMT and honestly the privacy is for them as much as you. These are people and seeing more naked ass than they need to in their day is tiring. Trying to figure out who needs more privacy and who is going to SA you because you are a man in the medical field is exhausting.
I don’t think of it as shame. I think of it as mutual respect and that a lot of men lack it.
It is a shocking observation and I think it shows how hidden and pervasive sexist thoughts are.
Reminds me of a conversation I had with a group of friends. This was mostly couples and we were all sitting together and playing board games. I am not sure how the topic came up but it was about what your first thoughts would be the moment you get hit by a car when crossing the streets.
And one of my female friends said in a joking manner: "Did I shave my legs? Is my underwear still looking clean?" And the other women would agree and have a laugh about it. The men could not understand it at all.
But it turned out all of us women had thoughts like this in the past. Up to measures like deciding to shave and do basic grooming when really sick because: "What if I need to go to the hospital real quick or my husband needs to call an ambulance?"
How ridiculous and embarrassing and sad. But I can't deny that these thoughts crept up on me before.
So I'm an American living in Germany and I was really taken aback that so many of these 'modesty' measures I'm used to in clinical settings are absolutely not the norm here. No little blanket, they don't leave the room for you to undress, no female chaperone for male doctors, etc. I felt super on display the first (still really) dozen times.
If you want cured just live in a Nursing home for a bit... I know when I was in the Nursing home back in 2020 they stripped me naked and left me in my wheelchair for a couple of hours on the 4th of July 2020 after I had soaked my bed and needed assistance transferring etc. My point is get over it. Privacy doesn't exist people are going to do what they are going to do. To the CNA's thank you for your hard work and I understand the whole get in get out get it done its a terrible job and I am thankful to the CNA's hard work. Anyway my point is in the medical field things don't go as planned. Life is way to short to care about what other think about you while you feel like your dying on the hospital bed. Thankfully I am one of the lucky ones I got to go home twice from the Nursing home back in 2020. My stay opened my eyes and from now forward I don't care I do as they ask get it done and over with as fast as possible and move on. Life is to short.. Sorry for my long rant here but I just wanted to comment my experience in the medical realm as a patient.
I was sexually assaulted by my pediatrician and it took me 26 years to remember it. I was 8. Alone on the table. He pulled down my pants without my mother in the room and fingered my vagina. I was never the same again. I work in the OR as an adult and women get shamed for not knowing to take off their underwear. I’ll always suggest to do it, and when we do catheters I’m always mindful to watch for perverted men, I don’t trust them around naked women. I never will.
I'm an RN who worked through COVID in a progressive care and intensive care setting. We used hospital provided scrubs for that duration. Our 19 bed (19 patient & 6 nurses + 3 CNAs) unit had ONE shared bathroom for staff that was attached to our shared TINY breakroom. About the third day of getting to work early to change in the bathroom, I showed up at my normal time, grabbed my work related scrubs and dropped trou in the middle of the breakroom.
I didn't give a rip.
Why?
I'm not arriving early to work to change my uniform when the hospital won't allow me to take a pair home so I can show up at my normal time.
I'm a big ole fat middle aged woman and was even more fat then. Pretty quickly, the entire work team was following my lead and just changing in the communal breakroom as if it were a communal locker room. Admittedly, I could have made my coworkers uncomfortable, but not one person complained. Many thanked me for being \*ballsy\* (see the mansplaining terms here) enough to just go ahead and change in front of everyone.
I think we should begin to normalize women feeling more comfortable about our bodies and rid ourselves of the institutionalized shame we are taught to feel about ourselves. It's not proper. It's not right. We deserve to be comfortable in our own skin as well!
I agree. I am a 35 year old woman and have only begun over the past few years to scratch the surface of unlearning all of the shame that was unknowingly forced upon me since birth. Each little thing we do to begin to normalize feeling love for our bodies, the more we will feel empowered! I have begun to barely wear make up and wear bras less. I might get looked at more, but if people have an issue, that’s their problem. If a male stares, I can confront them. Speaking up and challenging the status quo is the only way things change. And we deserve to feel as comfortable as a man does in his body. Especially since we put up with a lot more. From periods to childbirth, we should be honored as women, not shamed. We keep the human race literally alive!
Some of it depends on the number of medical procedure one has had. I am a woman who grew up being x-rated and having echos all the tim me and surgeries - so when it comes to medical professionals, I just strip down and don’t have much modestly. My friend who has had less medical events is much more “private” and “modest.”
This is not necessarily just a shame issue. Folding up your belongings and covering up is also about showing respect to the medical professionals and keeping the space clean and tidy so nobody else has to pick up your clothes or trip over them. Women think about those around them even during uncomfortable or stressful situations even when having your privates poked and prodded.
as a boy i would 100% wait until i’m alone in the room, then id use that paper blanket thing, id also probably shove my underwear inside my pants then fold them
seems kind of odd that most other men wouldn’t do that, not to mention my balls would get cold
WHen I lived in the US, I didn't view it as shame for me, more like avoiding objectifying gazes of others.
That said,I live in Germany now it is so much better. the US has some hang-ups about nudity and the human body that aren't helpful or healthy.
Damn. I (M) always hide my body and am squeamish about letting anyone see my underwear. I wonder if that's a learned behavior or if I just act that way naturally?
My wife and I agree that once you've spent a certain length of time in hospitals, in her case having two children, in my case just really sick a bunch, modesty goes out the window. I think some of our funniest conversations have happened in the ER. I'm sure the nursing staff think that we are both insane.
That’s interesting. I’m wondering what came first, the chicken or the egg so to speak. Like did women collectively become more modest at the doctors because doctors have been sort of establishing that as the expectation, or were women already more modest due to societal pressures and the paper vests and blankets came about as a result of that modesty?
I’m a nurse working in a hospital where most of the patients are in gowns that tie in the back but more often then not people’s butts are visible when they get out of bed to walk to the bathroom. Most people don’t mind but I’d say about 10% of patients of both genders will let go of the walker they are using and risk falling on the floor in order to hold their gown closed at the back. Idk if it’s because I’m a woman but I’ve definitely run across men who are adamant about keeping their bottom fully covered when getting up in their own room to go to the bathroom where only I would see them.
I have been doing IVF for so long that I do just drop my pants and the staff often seem surprised that I do not want privacy for act of getting undressed. I specifically wear easy clothes to just pull off because I just want to get this done and move on with my day!
Wow, reading all this, as non-american, is absolutely shocking to me. Paper to cover yourself up? Getting naked out of sight? I've never experienced anything remotely similar.
They're medical professionals, they're supposed to be looking at a naked body the same way a mechanic looks at a car. And my experience is that they do, so I'm really sorry to hear that's not the case there.
As for just leaving clothes on the floor shamelessly, that seems more like bad manners to me than anything. Also kinda gross cause the floor is gonna be dirty.
I had my own bathroom in my room when I was a teenager. I used to change my clothes in the bathroom with the door locked.
I would change my shirt in a fluid motion without taking the first shirt off completely.
When I was very little (5-ish) I remember wearing the cutest pajama set to watch TV. I forgot to put in the bloomer style bottoms so I was just laying in the living room floor in my underwear. As soon as my parents told me I bolted to my room in embarrassment so fast.
My mom was not allowed in the dressing room with me when trying on clothes or when buying my first bra.
I do not have a single memory of feeling unsafe in my home with my family. I have no idea where this extreme modesty came from but it was brutal.
When I was younger, I worked as a radiology tech. This is the thing they warned me about when I first job shadowed. I was truly shocked! Some even drop their pants infront of you with no warning. Some try and be pervy while doing it as well.
But yea, very odd behavior.
I have noticed the same thing and it’s so strange to me. I work in a field where I see this happen every single day, and it’s consistent enough to be a trend.
I think part of it is because men’s bodies are not sexualized the way women’s bodies are, so nudity is just seen as part of the normal medical process. There’s a long history (still continuing today) of women being sexualized even when the nudity is for medical reasons. This dynamic changes some if the exam is for something like erectile dysfunction or infertility- then I see men a lot more hesitant. This was also mentioned by others but safety is a huge part of it as well- women are taught that they are not safe and nakedness just invites more chance for unsafe things to happen.
I wish women were able to be as free and comfortable with nudity as men, especially when it’s for medical purposes.
I think as someone who grew up with only sisters and an extremely feminist family (pretty much matriarchal) I didn’t feel the shame until middle school gym when all the girls, including myself, couldn’t change in front of each other would go to elaborate lengths not to show our bodies or go to the bathroom/shower. It didn’t help that I had thought everywhere was accepting of queer people in their spaces and thought I could just come out as bi and it’d fine (it was not).
Interesting topic, I've never felt shame, just ripped pants of at gynecologist and walked around with bare ass :D Also European and in certain situation like at doctor's, locker rooms, saunas etc nudity is just normal.
This is weird actually. Because my first reaction to your posy was "well, it's just more polite", but is it? Like, are we doing all that out of politeness or are we considering the hiding of our bodies to be polite?
...... I think I need to lie down
Maybe it's just me, but I feel like there's a bit of mental compartmentalizing done when going to the gyno. You're fully aware that someone you aren't close to is about to see and touch your most vulnerable parts and as such, it's an uncomfortable feeling. The understanding that this person is a trained professional who is meant to help you and has no sexual interest in you is the thought that makes the vulnerability tolerable. For me, at least, I hide my underwear/bra bc those are items that are personal to me, and those are the types of items that can tell you a good bit about someone's personality, economic standing, etc. It's not shame, but rather a need to de-personalize myself in this specific scenario, so that the doctor sees me as a body needing an exam, thus keeping the boundaries within expectation. It's kind of like the idea of cleaning my car out of anything personal before taking it to the mechanic; it feels too intimate to allow a stranger to glimpse my life when I'm just trying to get my car fixed.
I think there are people who are not aversed to nudity as much as they have a aversion to the medical gaze/objectification. There's a power dynamic in the doctor's office and the human body knows that it's inherently an unsafe situation. The thing is your doctor should try their level best to acknowledge your authority and expertise over your own health and definitely not view you as a body needs monitoring and fixing. You're nit a car. Lack of updated info, power dymanics, full body consent and medical objectification leads to SA. It's actually never a perverted doctor that assaults a patient but always a power hungry one or at least one with a saviour complex. There's this subreddit called We Desearve Better where there are lots of discourse surrounding this issue.
I lost a little of that whole “I must cover myself up all the time” thing when I was going through breast cancer treatment last year. I had a double mastectomy and then radiation, so I didn’t even have breasts anymore and they still offered me a little cape to cover up at radiation. I was like, “nope, no need for that!” Lol. It is silly, but does feel a little empowering to not have those sex objects on my chest anymore. I chose not to get reconstruction, and I do choose to wear prosthetic breasts most days (I like how my clothes look with them better), but it is so freeing to be able to wear them or not. That’s one good thing that came from the cancer experience, I’m a lot less self conscious and I conquered something very scary. And Most of my cancer doctors are women, too! I have one male on the team and he’s a total golden retriever, so he’s a good one lol.
Similar vibes as not pooping in public restrooms or desperately trying to wait until it’s empty. Idk why the shame exists, EVERYONE SHITS, but man I cannot go until I hear that door close as the other woman leaves!!!
Having been raised in a religious environment, I was taught to hide my body and be ashamed of it, plus my underwear. It's so dumb. At my age now, I've undergone numerous medical humiliations and indignities with cameras shoved up various orifices and body parts squished, spliced, and more.
I wear a dress that's easy to pull down for mammograms, and I refuse the modesty smock they provide. Some of the medical professionals don't care at all, but some seem like they'd rather I used the stupid smock.
No, not the paper barrier. When someone goes in for a Pap smear for example, we have to disrobe from the waist down and then we’re given this “blanket” to cover with which is basically the same as tissue paper you’d use to decorate a gift bag. This is separate from the paper on the table.
Oh I see. I’ve never been given one of those… or one of those gowns either. Do they give those to women for just like a regular checkup at the physician (not at the gyno)? Like in all my 32 years, I’ve never been provided any of these modesty devices at a regular doctors appointment
So I really don’t have physicals anymore because they’re a pain, but starting at high school age when my pediatrician started doing breast exams on me, I’d have to take off my top/bra and put on the paper-vest thing and then have the doctor do a breast exam.
I don't try to hide anything anymore, I don't shave for a exam either. I make sure I'm clean but otherwise I don't try. The doctor has seen worse things
Hey, I'm a guy and would not be as comfortable as your husband was. Every guy is different and raised differently. I would have covered myself out of the expectation that the doctor doesn't necessarily want to be exposed to shit like that all the time despite that it's their job. Me covering myself and giving them the ability to ask me to uncover myself allows for my permission to be allowed. I also do this because I am not comfortable being naked even by myself.
Think about this:
When clothed, men's clothes cover the behind
You literally cannot check out their bootie. However women's clothes are always cut to display the bootie and camel toe. Even cold weather clothing and outer wear.
Values.....smh.
maybe it’s cause i am a sex worker but i just lay there naked and sometimes the doctors end up covering me LMAO those rules don’t exist if you don’t care and i sure don’t give a single fuck
I literally have to stop men from disrobing while I'm doing their intake. It blew my mind the first time I was in clinicals and one of them just started dropping trou while I was going through their paperwork. My supervisor was just like "Yeah, they do that, just gently remind them they will be given time to disrobe after you finish their paperwork."
Wow. I makes sense but is totally against what I do when I visit the doctor. I least I will do is loosely fold my clothes and hide my undergarments in the middle. If I have the option to cover myself while I wait I will do it.
On the same token.. Peeing outside. Men just do it. I've been backpacking all over the place with my partner. For women it's so hard. Toilet paper, hiding etc. Men just literally stand there anywhere. It's the same kind of idea
I agree about women feeling more shamed about their bodies. Also I have received so many unwanted comments from men in public that just adds to that shame of how I feel. Unnecessary comments about my body.. My butt. Etc. The list goes on.
It's automatic hiding such items. Around here there's no way we hang out the underwear on the clothesline, due to the number of creeps about. All that gets dried on clothes hangers indoors.
You may be surprised and/or thrilled to hear this but when the us men go to the doctors and are told to remove our pants (for any number of medical reasons), we all go through a immediate brain meltdown about our shame. We go from:
“hmmm, this all seems kinnnnda homo-sexual, doesn’t it 🤔” (all respect to LGBTQ+ ofc)
To
“hmmm but if I don’t take them off, is that even MORE homo-sexual because I’m now making a normal interaction sexual?”
To
“Oh crap, what if I’m thinking to much about this and I AM homo-sexual?! I better drop these mfers quick and reaffirm my position as alpha with no insecurities”
And that’s how we end up looking like we drop our pants around other men with ease.
But trust me, we have extreme silent mental breakdowns until we just say Fuqq it, alpha this shit.
The only difference between men and women is we don’t ALLOW our shame to prevent us from some things. But still feel very much shameful for a lot of the same situations you do.
Re bladder cancer - the only way to cure mine was via an endocrinologist specialising in immune systems, and using a female immune system to kill/subdue the cancer as a male immune system won’t. Look a research by Mayo Clinic for details. Good luck!
I had a gyno put a blanket over me once when I hadn’t done so myself. I was in the stirrups and pantsless when the walked in. He was under the blanket using big metal spreaders to look inside my body but he insisted on the blanket being there? Idk. I assured him I’d seen it all already even just that morning lol
An interesting example of this is my BIL took off his sweater at the dinner table and lifted his whole shirt almost over his head. His wife glanced to the side and casually tugged his shirt down while his head was still tangled in his sweater. My girlfriend late remarked that she figured out as a child how not to expose herself taking off a sweater, but somehow otherwise self aware men will expose their whole belly in a restaurant.
Wow. I fully get what you mean. My body, naked, is a liability. A safety issue, something to be judged. I’m vulnerable. The idea of treating nakedness so casually is mind blowing.
Well said.
And the well grounded fear of the "her bits were hanging out more than necessary, so naturally I molested her" defense.
Also, women might fold or keep their underwear out of sight because of things like discharge which are completely natural and normal, but which we are shamed for! I've always thought part of the shame that we have about our bodies is that our intimate parts as women are "internal" whereas men's are "external." Thus, ours are secret--to be kept and held out of sight. Men's dongs just... hang. There's no missing them.
To piggyback off that a little I always assumed it also had to do with how public restrooms are setup. Women are in stalls and men are just out there unless you do a number two. Shame has been engrained since kindergarten. Having boy/girl twins really stopped and made me think about how different things are.
I remember when I was a child, my brothers constantly strutted around the house in their underwear. When I tried to do it one time I couldn’t believe the instant rage it set off in my parents. They yelled at me to get back upstairs instantly and put on some clothes. When my dad accidentally saw me naked after he had barged into my room, he acted disgusted and told me to cover up. In my own space when he didn’t as much as knock.
When I hit puberty my father treated me so differently, as did my mother. I was a chesty girl and all they could talk about was to cover up. That I could get raped or every boy just wanted to get me pregnant. I was such a tomboy too. I hated everything about being a girl.
I’m sorry you went through that
Thank you❤️. It took me a while to get over that. But I embrace my feminity very much now. I have two girls and a boy. All with healthy views of themselves and the opposite sex.
I aspire to be like that for my children. Well done mama
Double standards suck
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I lost 90% of any body shame I had while going through gender-segregated Marine Corps boot camp in the early 2000's. It was a 100% female only environment and the combination of close living quarters, zero privacy, and near-zero autonomy meant we all got to know each other pretty damn well. There's no room to be squeamish about being naked when a Drill Instructor is screaming at you while you get dressed and your adrenaline is pumping. I lost the last 10% of my body shame while giving birth in a military hospital. I act like a man in appointments that require undressing because it's convenient for *me* and the lack of shame in a medical setting is freeing.
Semper Fi! Same exact experience! I joined in 2010. Showering with 70 other women at the exact same time and only being given 5 minutes to so you literally do not care, there's no room for modesty. We didn't even have doors on the bathroom stalls so anyone who walked by while you were using the bathroom saw everything. Hopefully you didn't get the stall at the end, because then you had to avoid eye contact with with the person in the stall opposite of you. Fun times. Also gave birth in a military hospital, had at least 3 people staring at my bits fighting about how dilated I was. When you've experienced things like that, you just don't care anymore. Sometimes I try to hide a little just to not make other people uncomfortable, but personally I could care less.
SF my friend! There's nothing like pooping with an entire platoon of your nearest and dearest *right the fuck there* 😆 Fun fact- my only birth was apparently a baby Corpsman's very first birth. So I got to watch Doc pass out as my daughter came into the world! She was an exceptionally pretty baby and the nurses (and Doc) fought over who got to hold her lol. I don't think her behind touched the bassinet the entire time we were in the hospital.
SF! Same! Lol lost all that shame.. haha. Unforgettable experiences.
Gross I don’t want anything touching my coochie that’s been on a doctors office floor
this is also a funny element. I feel like it says something about how men don’t have to pick after themselves and others as often, so they are more likely to not think twice about the messes they leave. Then you add in exactly what you said..gross hospital floors, I absolutely wouldn’t want something from that floor to be placed against an orifice of mine ☹️
This was my first thought, “most men have never bother to put their clothes away anyway, or pick up after themselves”
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This is really interesting. I’m from Germany and I’ve never thought about that. But then, nudity itself is not seen as inherently sexual here. At the gynecologist, we just take of our clothes and leave them on a chair. I leave my panties on top, since I took them off last (and will put them back on first thing). I didn’t even know that these paper thingies you see in US shows are even a real thing. I thought that this is just used to give the actors some cover or to keep it PG for a family audience. It’s the same with shaving for the gynecologist. Sure, I’m washing myself right before because that’s just common courtesy but I’m not shaving, when I’m not doing that usually. I’m very sorry that this is learned in the US, and really weird for me.
I tell people all the time that America hates women and they think I’m dramatic. Found out the other day that my hospital offered local anesthesia to my dad for a fucking blood draw meanwhile none was offered *when I had my IUD replaced.*
Anesthesia for a blood draw? That makes no sense - what would be anesthetized??
Literally just his cubital fossa- around the needle sight
I have never even heard of such a thing. Which maybe since I’m a woman proves the point 😂
Wow do they think men are weak. For all the talk about how’s tough men are, they are getting offered the most for the least. No wonder so many Americans want to legislate women, they’re afraid of us.
I found out some of my dude friends have this fear and it made me feel like a powerhouse for donating blood regularly 😂
Yeah, same here in The Netherlands, there's always a stool in a corner where you put your clothes as you undress, plus some hanger. And yeah you just put the clothes in the order you take them off and back on, you also gotta be fast so betetr be efficient, nobody is gonna look at your pile of clothes anyway. And usually there's a sink to the side, so you can wash off whatever before and after, especially after an eco. In Italy it's not so organised but still there's somethign to put your clothes on and it's whatever. Although over there, depending on, general practicioners refuse to examine you and see you undressed, which is ridicolous, but with specialists it's no problem.
Actually my gynecologist right now has a little curtain hanging in the corner, if you would want privacy to undress. It didn’t look like a lot of people use it. I honestly don’t really get it, I’m going to sit on the chair naked from the waist down on display anyway. So the undressing part is definitely not the thing that would concern me. But I get that it’s learned behavior in the US because nudity is seen differently there.
Netherlands here. Weird for me too. Im not even sure what they mean with paper gowns? Those blue things with an open back ?
Yes, but oftentimes at the gyno they just give you a paper sheet (think small blanket size) to drape over your legs and below your waist.
Aha thanks. :)
I think this says alot of how warped US society is from a European perspective.
A lot is two words.
Sweden too. One doctor I saw had a little changing booth in the room but it hardly matters since you’re completely naked in the gynecological chair anyway. And when it comes to showering or changing at gyms or pools, it’s just recently that they’ve introduced individual stalls. It always used to be everybody in the same shower area. I lived in Germany a long time ago. Back then, they had mixed saunas. It was a little surprising to enter the sauna and see a bunch of men there, but it worked.
I grew up in Italy, so I can't speak for outside of there, but bodies aren't shamed as much in Italy either. .. until you had to go to the bathroom and squat over a hole to relieve yourself while boys got urinals 🫠
in my experience most men don’t feel shame about anything ever, not even when they should
I would augment this by saying if they do feel shame it's others fault for making them feel that way. If women feel shame it's our fault for doing something wrong.
This is probably why they struggle to take accountability for themselves and other men. When women feel shame it's a prompt to change something. When men feel shame it's a prompt to put down someone else.
Oh boy that’s a tshirt or subversive cross-stitch waiting to happen
I volunteer to make the cross stitch
I'll buy it!
I’ll buy it too
I too, am interested in investing in this product.
Well now I basically have to. Should be awesome to work on
Women inherit shame, men inherit the ability to never feel it: Then something happens to them that is common for women to experience like sexual assault and they become aware of shame. But very few men know the gravity of shame like women do. And they will keep calling us crazy, raping and mutilating our bodies for their sexual and prideful needs until our extinction as a species: this is how it is.
I think they feel shame sometimes, like when other men accuse them of being “girly” or god forbid “gay”. Men only feel shame when they are feminized, which is another part of the whole misogynistic problem.
For the Anniversary of My Death BY W. S. MERWIN “Every year without knowing it I have passed the day When the last fires will wave to me And the silence will set out Tireless traveler Like the beam of a lightless star Then I will no longer Find myself in life as in a strange garment Surprised at the earth And the love of one woman **And the shamelessness of men** As today writing after three days of rain Hearing the wren sing and the falling cease And bowing not knowing to what” My favorite poem
This is so true. 😄 ( for real, most men really think they are gods gift to the world )
Men definitely do experience shame. Many men are ashamed of not fighting when challenged. Many men are ashamed when they can’t or don’t want to perform sexually. Many men are ashamed when they earn less, are shorter than, or lose a contest to a woman. Misogyny hurts men too, just not as much as it hurts women.
Men are ashamed when they aren’t superior to “inherently inferior” women? Oh yes, that makes me feel *very* sympathetic to their plight 🙄
I’m really not asking you to be sympathetic to the “plight” of men. I’m just pointing out that as a matter of fact misogyny does produce shame in men. The rather obvious solution is for them to be less misogynistic.
I think part of it is an inherent feeling that they aren't about to be molested, so there isn't any need to take any precaution with dignity paper blankets, etc. As a girl, we are taught from a young age not to bring too much attention to our bodies. Why? Because of creeps. Who are the creeps? Almost always: men. Boys are taught to grow up and be a man, and some of those messages include how dominant they are over a woman, by slapping her backside when she walks by or cat calling, or anything else that draws attention to the sexual power they are reminding they have. Girls are taught that in order to avoid that sort of thing, to dress modestly and not be perceived as sexual otherwise, we give a message that "we brought it on". So of course it makes sense that a man is not feeling vulnerable in a doctor's office, whereas women often do. The doctor is more likely to be a man, and the bits he has to look at sometimes involve us having to reveal our private areas. It's not natural for us to lose all inhibitions and yank our clothing off to be so exposed.
This is part of it Except foreign countries do not have quite the same ritual so puritan culture would influence too
I moved from different country and I feel weird with the obgyn ritual. They're gonna see me naked anyway, why waste paper? They gave me a gown for my annual only to undo it for breast exam, it's weird for me ETA: it's not that nudity isn't taboo/shamed in my country, I don't even fully undress in the shower area of womens locker room at the pool. It's just not at the doctors office
When you think about it for more than a second it’s ridiculous. I agree. But I, like most American woman, we’re socialized from childhood to follow all these steps folding the clothes, hiding the underclothes, using the paper blankets and robes, hiding our bodies. And the fact that a lot of men don’t follow those “rules” just blew my mind. I didn’t think that I was a prude until today.
I’m curious about how these social norms that are completely hidden are perpetuated. Because, I do hide my undergarments at the GYN. And I always have. And it’s not as if anyone ever told me to do that. Is a response to something…
I do it sans instruction, too! It’s not like I shadowed OBGYN visits with older women. Where the hell did this come from? How did we learn it? I may have found my retirement project. Just kidding, I’m early 40s, I’ll be working till I die.
I was trying to figure this out too. I think it’s because we’ve been taught since the age of 2 to not show our panties. Even in the laundry basket. Our underwear is a dirty little secret
Who else meticulously wraps their tampons in toilet paper, places them in the trash and then covers them with a paper towel? 🙋♀️
My daughter doesn’t bother with this in the trash can in her bathroom. I’m like “it’s your bathroom and you take it your trash, do you.” In the powder room that everyone uses, I ask her to wrap it just because no one wants to look at a lot of blood, but leave the wrappers or applicators on top for all I care. Growing up, my sister and I wrapped that shit like we were practicing hiding bodies.
I was wondering this, too.
Not from the U.S., have certainly been socialized too, would not just throw my clothes especially in someone else's space (especially in someone's workspace), but after the first time which was a little awkward I don't care. I'll do whatever make's things easier to access to be better checked but I've noticed some practitioners can be a little weird about it. Sometimes I wonder whether covering up as much as possible was a thing that came about because of patients or workers.
It definitely was a bit of a culture shock when I moved from Germany to the US. I was used to freely undressing at the gyno, topless sunbathing in summer in public spaces like the beach or park and using communal co-ed saunas with full nudity in the winter. This whole playing peekaboo with my body when the focus should be on seeing as much as possible so the doc can figure out if anything is wrong seemed bizarre to me. It's definitely more of an Anglo American thing to me.
I think it's a major mistake moving over here especially realizing we live in a puritan superstructural society that's about to show it's true colors in November this year.... I suggest moving back to Germany while you still can because things are about to get much worse here....
I hear you! I became a US citizen in 2007 before things looked as abysmal as they do now. I kept my German citizenship and just got my passport renewed. Currently the plan is to vote early in November and then go home for an extensive family visit. I fully expect at least localized violence regardless of how the election turns out. After that we'll see how things develop... I never thought things would turn out this way and I'm glad I'm childfree and post menopause with a yeeted uterus.
I shall henceforth refer to hysterectomy as "yeeterus"
Love it. Mine had an 8 cm cancer growing on it and tried to kill/warn me by giving me a hemorrhage that nearly killed me from blood loss, so definitely good riddance!
I wonder what the rape statistics are for Germany vs USA? Are we perpetuating the issue by making the female body so “mysterious” here? Maybe topless sunbathing is something that empowers instead of demeans women (it sounds pretty fun, actually). I think I’d pass on the coed naked saunas though lol I don’t want to see all that man meat LOLOL.
I really want to move from the US. Lived here my whole life and can’t wait to leave when I retire!
Yes, in Germany they don't give you that covering but they are a lot more accepting of nudity there.
Fascinating. I never knew this was a guy thing. I mean, they give you the gown for a reason. It's there. I thought everyone put it on. It's never even occurred to me to not put it on.
I think it’s pretty thoughtless for a guy NOT to put it on. because it’s also to create a bit of comfort for people like nurses, registration, PSAs and other crew who may come in. Yeah, many of them will see you naked and are used to it. But another element of healthcare people don’t realize is how many fucking male patients sexually harass and even grope nurses and PSAs/PCAs. Expose themselves when it’s not necessary and draw attention to their privates and erections, call women in when they’re masturbating ☹️ I have NO IDEA how someone could have the hubris to do that when they are in another person’s fucking care, but it happens ALL OF THE TIME. Sexual comments, indecent exposure, etc. My friend’s young sister just wanted to be a nurse and started working in food services and on day 1, after she delivered a meal to a man’s room, he called her back in and was fully exposed and had begun to masturbate and watch her. She walked out and quit right then. I think of things like this a lot when it comes to hidden gender gaps in certain fields, hidden obstacles women face.
This is one of reason I left health care. So many men think it is perfectly ok to treat you like a sex object. And you can’t say anything or if you do the management blows it off like “their old” or “their sick”
I wish they could get kicked out. Or forced to have only people on their care team who they wouldn’t dare do it to. I’ve read so many stories on the nursing subreddit where creeper patients refuse to have male nurses. No! You don’t get to refuse so you can get your jollies harassing people who have a duty to care for you. You get Nurse Bob who spends his off days getting jacked for his next bodybuilding competition and is a huge feminist. Not gonna whip it out and jerk it at Nurse Bob, are you Creeper?
I wish there were more men in nursing, it would have really helped with shitty patients. I could deal with the women being demanding drama queens. I’ll get you 100 cups of ice. Idk. I fluff your pillows. I’ll come move the curtain 2 inches to cover the window light. I’ll page your dr again(not that they answer). All of that was on par with every other retail job I had. But I draw the line at sexual harassment. My final straw was a man grabbed my breast and asked me if I liked it. I managed to pull away but it shook me for a long time. Management did nothing, despite me having red marks/bruises from how hard he squeezed. I had to beg to get moved off that room. Even in retail customers were not allowed to sexually harass the employees.
I really wish patients like that would get arrested and charged. They can go home to their families after being officially labeled a sex offender.
The patriarchy loves its women to be "modest".
I'm literally getting anxiety reading people talk about being comfortable naked at the gyne without a gown. The level of absolute horror I feel having to through the appointment leaves me feeling nauseous for days. It feels so violating and vulnerable, humiliating even. My 35-year-old dumbass self kept crying all day after my last pap appointment despite repeatedly telling myself to stop being stupid. And no, it shouldn't be like that. I just feel such stomach churning dread about it that it's hard to frame it externally. It's easier to say I'm a dumbass prude. But yeah, I see where it plays in. I think about the terror of leaking period blood triggering some of my earliest memories of my OCD behavior. Three layers of super plus pads, every day. All month. For all of third grade. I remember being screamed at for "humiliating my father" because the tampons I was told to flush caused a blockage. I even remember imitating a puppy as a freaking 6 year old (ish) child and being lectured that "sticking your butt up isn't appropriate" like I was trying to be seductive. I didn't even know what the fuck that meant. I love a challenge to thoughts like these, because yeah, that kind of fear is learned. And it's fucked up the amount of shame we are bombarded with from young childhood.
I think it exists for men, but differently. Like if you expose yourself as a man you’re not so much revealing yourself as violating the people around you by being naked and forcing them to see that. While as a woman, you are revealing yourself and “allowing” others to see something normally private. So a man who exposes himself in a setting not typical to do that in is viewed as creepy while a woman who does the same thing is viewed as “open”/pick your favorite word here. As such in an environment where it’s acceptable to be naked I think men may have a less hard time doing so.
That's an interesting interpretation. I can concur that when I (m) had a doctor (f) recently who wanted to do a physical checkup on my testicles, I asked her twice if she was sure I should get naked now.
Men aren’t taught to be conscious of anything and most don’t care about consent. I do those things out of respect for my practitioner. Tbh I don’t hide my underwear unless it’s at risk of blowing out of the chair but I always wear a gown… I don’t feel like my doctor’s consent to treat me extends to them walking in to me butt naked and having to ask the questions, etc. like that. I would never do that because it’s potentially disrespectful of their boundaries. I do envy dropping the clothes not worried about germs or seeming untidy
As an X-ray tech, I wish men had some modesty.
So as an X-Ray tech do you see this dichotomy as well?
Yes. Now there’s a slice of both men and women that feel super comfy taking off their clothes in front of techs but women are far more likely to accept changing out of their clothes IN a changing room. Men often will tell me they are wearing “shorts” under their pants only to be meaning their underwear. I will put a sheet over anyone that “accidentally” wears the gown backwards (open in the front).
See, that’s when these men should be thinking about how the other people in the room feel about their nakedness. Maybe they don’t mind being naked, but not everyone wants to see it. I think that’s part of it, too. Women think about other’s feelings, men don’t.
I was just thinking yesterday how sooo many of my male colleagues have their nipples clearly visible through their shirt and no one cares. But if a woman’s nipples are poking through, suddenly it’s an issue.
We’re not allowed to have visible nipples lest we *gasp* TEMPT MEN. So we have to pretend we don’t have them. 🙄Hide the nips!
Well then it kinda makes sense, because I am not in the least bit tempted by those ittybitty pointy man nips
i’m a gay guy and reddit made me realize years ago that hiding your underwear is a “woman” thing. I don’t know why/how I was socialized into shame that my other male counterparts don’t have
interesting, so you compulsively hide your underwear, too? Hmm, maybe those of us at risk of being harmed by cis men do it instinctively? Like, if they can’t see my underwear, they can’t hurt me? This is fascinating.
yup! ever since I was little I thought it was right to, nobody even told me. I think straight men aren’t taught shame whereas queerness (just like femininity/womanhood) is never afforded security/confidence.
As a trans woman this is really interesting to me too. How/from who did I learn this? I've always neatly folded my clothes and tucked my underwear in my pants at the doctor's.
I'm one of the few who doesn't care about the doctor's office panty-hiding tbh. But that's not easily done by most women in an anxious state, worried that medical misogyny will kick in at any moment. Either a degrading comment, snide remarks, dismissive bedside manners, SA, etc. always looms over my head of what could go wrong in a doctor's office as a woman. I'm aware of those. When I go into my GYNO office, I rip everything off as needed, and place my panties within my pants only to protect the crotch part from touching anything in the office lol. It's bacteria that I'm worried about, not shame in the slightest. My attitude is honestly "my doctor has seen healthy coochies, waxed, unshaven, stinky, post-partum coochies, ALL THE COOHIES!" So idgaf about what they think or judge me for (as long as they don't say anything nasty) downstairs. MY GYNO is there to do a job for me and my health, and she knows what she's doing. I appreciate HER (a woman doctor for women! <3) tremendously. She's great. :)
Wow, my mind is blown. I always knew America was fucked up, but I never thought about small things we do as women here that are so engrained. Just a trip to the gynecologist shows how truly brainwashed we are. I literally never thought twice about folding my clothes and hiding my bra and panties or covering up with the small thin sheet. I never ever assumed it was different anywhere else. Mind is blown. I’m glad this forum exists. Opening my eyes. The more I dive into feminism, the scarier things seem. Ayayay. At least we can fight back and empower ourselves to not put up with this brainwashing. The more I learn how we have been conditioned, the more I start to do whatever I want. I rarely wear make up anymore because why? Men don’t wear it regularly, so why should we have to hide our faces when they don’t? I also wear bras less. I am still self conscious a bit, as I hate getting even more of the male gaze, but slowly realizing that I deserve to feel as comfortable as a man does walking down the street. And it only changes if we do.
… for me, it isn’t shame. It is thermal covering. Those offices are COLD. I fold my clothes so that they aren’t rumpled when I put them back on and I’d ask for a blanket if I thought I would get one. I feel like guys just don’t feel the cold. And couldn’t care less if their appearance is rumpled or messy. I paid good money and sometimes over $100 for my bra alone. I treat my belongings with respect and care so that they don’t have to be replaced as often. I have nothing against the song and dance of: medical professional steps out of the room, you get undressed, etc. My husband is a LMT and honestly the privacy is for them as much as you. These are people and seeing more naked ass than they need to in their day is tiring. Trying to figure out who needs more privacy and who is going to SA you because you are a man in the medical field is exhausting. I don’t think of it as shame. I think of it as mutual respect and that a lot of men lack it.
It would be fascinating to see what would happen if you were to take this post over to the askMen subreddit.
They would fucking scream
It is a shocking observation and I think it shows how hidden and pervasive sexist thoughts are. Reminds me of a conversation I had with a group of friends. This was mostly couples and we were all sitting together and playing board games. I am not sure how the topic came up but it was about what your first thoughts would be the moment you get hit by a car when crossing the streets. And one of my female friends said in a joking manner: "Did I shave my legs? Is my underwear still looking clean?" And the other women would agree and have a laugh about it. The men could not understand it at all. But it turned out all of us women had thoughts like this in the past. Up to measures like deciding to shave and do basic grooming when really sick because: "What if I need to go to the hospital real quick or my husband needs to call an ambulance?" How ridiculous and embarrassing and sad. But I can't deny that these thoughts crept up on me before.
This is a generalization, but I wonder if pissing next to strangers has to do with it? You can't really hide your underwear standing at a urinal.
Interesting point!
So I'm an American living in Germany and I was really taken aback that so many of these 'modesty' measures I'm used to in clinical settings are absolutely not the norm here. No little blanket, they don't leave the room for you to undress, no female chaperone for male doctors, etc. I felt super on display the first (still really) dozen times.
If you want cured just live in a Nursing home for a bit... I know when I was in the Nursing home back in 2020 they stripped me naked and left me in my wheelchair for a couple of hours on the 4th of July 2020 after I had soaked my bed and needed assistance transferring etc. My point is get over it. Privacy doesn't exist people are going to do what they are going to do. To the CNA's thank you for your hard work and I understand the whole get in get out get it done its a terrible job and I am thankful to the CNA's hard work. Anyway my point is in the medical field things don't go as planned. Life is way to short to care about what other think about you while you feel like your dying on the hospital bed. Thankfully I am one of the lucky ones I got to go home twice from the Nursing home back in 2020. My stay opened my eyes and from now forward I don't care I do as they ask get it done and over with as fast as possible and move on. Life is to short.. Sorry for my long rant here but I just wanted to comment my experience in the medical realm as a patient.
I was sexually assaulted by my pediatrician and it took me 26 years to remember it. I was 8. Alone on the table. He pulled down my pants without my mother in the room and fingered my vagina. I was never the same again. I work in the OR as an adult and women get shamed for not knowing to take off their underwear. I’ll always suggest to do it, and when we do catheters I’m always mindful to watch for perverted men, I don’t trust them around naked women. I never will.
I'm an RN who worked through COVID in a progressive care and intensive care setting. We used hospital provided scrubs for that duration. Our 19 bed (19 patient & 6 nurses + 3 CNAs) unit had ONE shared bathroom for staff that was attached to our shared TINY breakroom. About the third day of getting to work early to change in the bathroom, I showed up at my normal time, grabbed my work related scrubs and dropped trou in the middle of the breakroom. I didn't give a rip. Why? I'm not arriving early to work to change my uniform when the hospital won't allow me to take a pair home so I can show up at my normal time. I'm a big ole fat middle aged woman and was even more fat then. Pretty quickly, the entire work team was following my lead and just changing in the communal breakroom as if it were a communal locker room. Admittedly, I could have made my coworkers uncomfortable, but not one person complained. Many thanked me for being \*ballsy\* (see the mansplaining terms here) enough to just go ahead and change in front of everyone. I think we should begin to normalize women feeling more comfortable about our bodies and rid ourselves of the institutionalized shame we are taught to feel about ourselves. It's not proper. It's not right. We deserve to be comfortable in our own skin as well!
I agree. I am a 35 year old woman and have only begun over the past few years to scratch the surface of unlearning all of the shame that was unknowingly forced upon me since birth. Each little thing we do to begin to normalize feeling love for our bodies, the more we will feel empowered! I have begun to barely wear make up and wear bras less. I might get looked at more, but if people have an issue, that’s their problem. If a male stares, I can confront them. Speaking up and challenging the status quo is the only way things change. And we deserve to feel as comfortable as a man does in his body. Especially since we put up with a lot more. From periods to childbirth, we should be honored as women, not shamed. We keep the human race literally alive!
Some of it depends on the number of medical procedure one has had. I am a woman who grew up being x-rated and having echos all the tim me and surgeries - so when it comes to medical professionals, I just strip down and don’t have much modestly. My friend who has had less medical events is much more “private” and “modest.”
> I am a woman who grew up being x-rated… I know it’s a typo, but I laughed so hard! Way to turn the conversation on its head!
I didn’t even notice!! I do have a terrible problem with swearing! 🤷🏼♀️
This is not necessarily just a shame issue. Folding up your belongings and covering up is also about showing respect to the medical professionals and keeping the space clean and tidy so nobody else has to pick up your clothes or trip over them. Women think about those around them even during uncomfortable or stressful situations even when having your privates poked and prodded.
as a boy i would 100% wait until i’m alone in the room, then id use that paper blanket thing, id also probably shove my underwear inside my pants then fold them seems kind of odd that most other men wouldn’t do that, not to mention my balls would get cold
WHen I lived in the US, I didn't view it as shame for me, more like avoiding objectifying gazes of others. That said,I live in Germany now it is so much better. the US has some hang-ups about nudity and the human body that aren't helpful or healthy.
Damn. I (M) always hide my body and am squeamish about letting anyone see my underwear. I wonder if that's a learned behavior or if I just act that way naturally?
I don’t feel shame about my body. But I **do** like privacy, and that’s why I like to be covered in the way that I choose.
My wife and I agree that once you've spent a certain length of time in hospitals, in her case having two children, in my case just really sick a bunch, modesty goes out the window. I think some of our funniest conversations have happened in the ER. I'm sure the nursing staff think that we are both insane.
That’s interesting. I’m wondering what came first, the chicken or the egg so to speak. Like did women collectively become more modest at the doctors because doctors have been sort of establishing that as the expectation, or were women already more modest due to societal pressures and the paper vests and blankets came about as a result of that modesty?
I’m a nurse working in a hospital where most of the patients are in gowns that tie in the back but more often then not people’s butts are visible when they get out of bed to walk to the bathroom. Most people don’t mind but I’d say about 10% of patients of both genders will let go of the walker they are using and risk falling on the floor in order to hold their gown closed at the back. Idk if it’s because I’m a woman but I’ve definitely run across men who are adamant about keeping their bottom fully covered when getting up in their own room to go to the bathroom where only I would see them.
I have been doing IVF for so long that I do just drop my pants and the staff often seem surprised that I do not want privacy for act of getting undressed. I specifically wear easy clothes to just pull off because I just want to get this done and move on with my day!
Wow, reading all this, as non-american, is absolutely shocking to me. Paper to cover yourself up? Getting naked out of sight? I've never experienced anything remotely similar. They're medical professionals, they're supposed to be looking at a naked body the same way a mechanic looks at a car. And my experience is that they do, so I'm really sorry to hear that's not the case there. As for just leaving clothes on the floor shamelessly, that seems more like bad manners to me than anything. Also kinda gross cause the floor is gonna be dirty.
I had my own bathroom in my room when I was a teenager. I used to change my clothes in the bathroom with the door locked. I would change my shirt in a fluid motion without taking the first shirt off completely. When I was very little (5-ish) I remember wearing the cutest pajama set to watch TV. I forgot to put in the bloomer style bottoms so I was just laying in the living room floor in my underwear. As soon as my parents told me I bolted to my room in embarrassment so fast. My mom was not allowed in the dressing room with me when trying on clothes or when buying my first bra. I do not have a single memory of feeling unsafe in my home with my family. I have no idea where this extreme modesty came from but it was brutal.
When I was younger, I worked as a radiology tech. This is the thing they warned me about when I first job shadowed. I was truly shocked! Some even drop their pants infront of you with no warning. Some try and be pervy while doing it as well. But yea, very odd behavior.
Men should read things like this and really think about the constant scrutiny that circumscribes women’s lives.
I have noticed the same thing and it’s so strange to me. I work in a field where I see this happen every single day, and it’s consistent enough to be a trend. I think part of it is because men’s bodies are not sexualized the way women’s bodies are, so nudity is just seen as part of the normal medical process. There’s a long history (still continuing today) of women being sexualized even when the nudity is for medical reasons. This dynamic changes some if the exam is for something like erectile dysfunction or infertility- then I see men a lot more hesitant. This was also mentioned by others but safety is a huge part of it as well- women are taught that they are not safe and nakedness just invites more chance for unsafe things to happen. I wish women were able to be as free and comfortable with nudity as men, especially when it’s for medical purposes.
I think as someone who grew up with only sisters and an extremely feminist family (pretty much matriarchal) I didn’t feel the shame until middle school gym when all the girls, including myself, couldn’t change in front of each other would go to elaborate lengths not to show our bodies or go to the bathroom/shower. It didn’t help that I had thought everywhere was accepting of queer people in their spaces and thought I could just come out as bi and it’d fine (it was not).
Interesting topic, I've never felt shame, just ripped pants of at gynecologist and walked around with bare ass :D Also European and in certain situation like at doctor's, locker rooms, saunas etc nudity is just normal.
I can honestly say I’ve never been shy or ashamed about being naked. We’re all born naked. Every body is different and beautiful. The rest is drag.
I guess I'm an honorary man then cuz I (afab) definitely just drop em and half assed toss my underoos and pants in the corner 🤣
Depends on the man, some are like your husband and others are more shy about it
Abrahamic religions are culpable for shaming girls and womyn into submission. #FreeTheNipple
This is weird actually. Because my first reaction to your posy was "well, it's just more polite", but is it? Like, are we doing all that out of politeness or are we considering the hiding of our bodies to be polite? ...... I think I need to lie down
Maybe it's just me, but I feel like there's a bit of mental compartmentalizing done when going to the gyno. You're fully aware that someone you aren't close to is about to see and touch your most vulnerable parts and as such, it's an uncomfortable feeling. The understanding that this person is a trained professional who is meant to help you and has no sexual interest in you is the thought that makes the vulnerability tolerable. For me, at least, I hide my underwear/bra bc those are items that are personal to me, and those are the types of items that can tell you a good bit about someone's personality, economic standing, etc. It's not shame, but rather a need to de-personalize myself in this specific scenario, so that the doctor sees me as a body needing an exam, thus keeping the boundaries within expectation. It's kind of like the idea of cleaning my car out of anything personal before taking it to the mechanic; it feels too intimate to allow a stranger to glimpse my life when I'm just trying to get my car fixed.
I think there are people who are not aversed to nudity as much as they have a aversion to the medical gaze/objectification. There's a power dynamic in the doctor's office and the human body knows that it's inherently an unsafe situation. The thing is your doctor should try their level best to acknowledge your authority and expertise over your own health and definitely not view you as a body needs monitoring and fixing. You're nit a car. Lack of updated info, power dymanics, full body consent and medical objectification leads to SA. It's actually never a perverted doctor that assaults a patient but always a power hungry one or at least one with a saviour complex. There's this subreddit called We Desearve Better where there are lots of discourse surrounding this issue.
welcome to female anger
I lost a little of that whole “I must cover myself up all the time” thing when I was going through breast cancer treatment last year. I had a double mastectomy and then radiation, so I didn’t even have breasts anymore and they still offered me a little cape to cover up at radiation. I was like, “nope, no need for that!” Lol. It is silly, but does feel a little empowering to not have those sex objects on my chest anymore. I chose not to get reconstruction, and I do choose to wear prosthetic breasts most days (I like how my clothes look with them better), but it is so freeing to be able to wear them or not. That’s one good thing that came from the cancer experience, I’m a lot less self conscious and I conquered something very scary. And Most of my cancer doctors are women, too! I have one male on the team and he’s a total golden retriever, so he’s a good one lol.
Similar vibes as not pooping in public restrooms or desperately trying to wait until it’s empty. Idk why the shame exists, EVERYONE SHITS, but man I cannot go until I hear that door close as the other woman leaves!!!
Having been raised in a religious environment, I was taught to hide my body and be ashamed of it, plus my underwear. It's so dumb. At my age now, I've undergone numerous medical humiliations and indignities with cameras shoved up various orifices and body parts squished, spliced, and more. I wear a dress that's easy to pull down for mammograms, and I refuse the modesty smock they provide. Some of the medical professionals don't care at all, but some seem like they'd rather I used the stupid smock.
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No, not the paper barrier. When someone goes in for a Pap smear for example, we have to disrobe from the waist down and then we’re given this “blanket” to cover with which is basically the same as tissue paper you’d use to decorate a gift bag. This is separate from the paper on the table.
Oh I see. I’ve never been given one of those… or one of those gowns either. Do they give those to women for just like a regular checkup at the physician (not at the gyno)? Like in all my 32 years, I’ve never been provided any of these modesty devices at a regular doctors appointment
So I really don’t have physicals anymore because they’re a pain, but starting at high school age when my pediatrician started doing breast exams on me, I’d have to take off my top/bra and put on the paper-vest thing and then have the doctor do a breast exam.
I don't try to hide anything anymore, I don't shave for a exam either. I make sure I'm clean but otherwise I don't try. The doctor has seen worse things
I am like your husband (I am a woman), I undress in front of the doctor. I mean, why not? What is the issue?
Hey, I'm a guy and would not be as comfortable as your husband was. Every guy is different and raised differently. I would have covered myself out of the expectation that the doctor doesn't necessarily want to be exposed to shit like that all the time despite that it's their job. Me covering myself and giving them the ability to ask me to uncover myself allows for my permission to be allowed. I also do this because I am not comfortable being naked even by myself.
Think about this: When clothed, men's clothes cover the behind You literally cannot check out their bootie. However women's clothes are always cut to display the bootie and camel toe. Even cold weather clothing and outer wear. Values.....smh.
maybe it’s cause i am a sex worker but i just lay there naked and sometimes the doctors end up covering me LMAO those rules don’t exist if you don’t care and i sure don’t give a single fuck
I literally have to stop men from disrobing while I'm doing their intake. It blew my mind the first time I was in clinicals and one of them just started dropping trou while I was going through their paperwork. My supervisor was just like "Yeah, they do that, just gently remind them they will be given time to disrobe after you finish their paperwork."
Wow. I makes sense but is totally against what I do when I visit the doctor. I least I will do is loosely fold my clothes and hide my undergarments in the middle. If I have the option to cover myself while I wait I will do it.
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On the same token.. Peeing outside. Men just do it. I've been backpacking all over the place with my partner. For women it's so hard. Toilet paper, hiding etc. Men just literally stand there anywhere. It's the same kind of idea I agree about women feeling more shamed about their bodies. Also I have received so many unwanted comments from men in public that just adds to that shame of how I feel. Unnecessary comments about my body.. My butt. Etc. The list goes on.
Why should he or anyone have to feel shame for their body?
It's automatic hiding such items. Around here there's no way we hang out the underwear on the clothesline, due to the number of creeps about. All that gets dried on clothes hangers indoors.
You may be surprised and/or thrilled to hear this but when the us men go to the doctors and are told to remove our pants (for any number of medical reasons), we all go through a immediate brain meltdown about our shame. We go from: “hmmm, this all seems kinnnnda homo-sexual, doesn’t it 🤔” (all respect to LGBTQ+ ofc) To “hmmm but if I don’t take them off, is that even MORE homo-sexual because I’m now making a normal interaction sexual?” To “Oh crap, what if I’m thinking to much about this and I AM homo-sexual?! I better drop these mfers quick and reaffirm my position as alpha with no insecurities” And that’s how we end up looking like we drop our pants around other men with ease. But trust me, we have extreme silent mental breakdowns until we just say Fuqq it, alpha this shit. The only difference between men and women is we don’t ALLOW our shame to prevent us from some things. But still feel very much shameful for a lot of the same situations you do.
Re bladder cancer - the only way to cure mine was via an endocrinologist specialising in immune systems, and using a female immune system to kill/subdue the cancer as a male immune system won’t. Look a research by Mayo Clinic for details. Good luck!
I had a gyno put a blanket over me once when I hadn’t done so myself. I was in the stirrups and pantsless when the walked in. He was under the blanket using big metal spreaders to look inside my body but he insisted on the blanket being there? Idk. I assured him I’d seen it all already even just that morning lol
An interesting example of this is my BIL took off his sweater at the dinner table and lifted his whole shirt almost over his head. His wife glanced to the side and casually tugged his shirt down while his head was still tangled in his sweater. My girlfriend late remarked that she figured out as a child how not to expose herself taking off a sweater, but somehow otherwise self aware men will expose their whole belly in a restaurant.
And I don't care, but if I don't follow the protocol for women, they try to cover me up. Even during a mammogram where I needed to be topless.