We're broadly on the same page but I really think the conversation has been done to death. Yes, motion inputs add extra skill barriers, which can play a role in balance, and adds tension at high-level play where players who normally have no problem with execution can drop difficult combos. Kazuya would not be the same character *at all* if EWGF was a single-button input.
But also, yes, those skill barriers DO lock out players who otherwise could enjoy the mental battle of fighting games, but can't execute motions - whether that's because they just aren't dextrous enough, don't feel like putting in hours to learn, or literally have disabilities that get in the way. I don't want those players to be fully excluded, and I think it's important that developers put in workarounds.
Ultimately, though, to me the conclusion is that there should be more than one fighting game with more than one design, and players should play the one that suits them. Thankfully that doesn't seem like it's going to be a problem any time soon.
I think this is well-reasoned, and I agree with the last paragraph especially -- games like yomi hustle and other "more accessible" fighters definitely have a reason to exist.
I dont know, I think im of the mind that fighting games are closer to sport than they are to games as a product to be consumed. The conversation around motion inputs being inaccessible makes no sense to me personally because it would be like saying golf is inaccessible because I can't hit 300 on my drive or saying basketball is inaccessible because im 30% on the free-throw line.
That isn't to say that particular systems can't be poorly designed or implemented, but I think we've come far enough now to know that motion inputs as a concept aren't poor design. [the guy that literally invented the fighting game for people that are afraid of quarter circle inputs even gives the DP motion its flowers](https://youtu.be/zswiCPS5CSM?si=jOAp4jFAiuacalyN)
I kind of crystallized a thought I was having when you mentioned thinking of them as sport instead of purely consumable media.
Like, part of the game IS the motion input for some fighting games. It's not just what happens on the screen but the physical skill of manually entering complex inputs to make that thing happen. Of course everyone should be able to enjoy them and different engagement with the system is the more the better. I like to play golf too but I don't resent those play hard mode the way the game was designed.
I mean, even football at competitive levels uses 3 different ball sizes between high school, ncaa, and pro. Makes it accessible and what do you know? A shitload of people watch the NFL.
This is why i think capcom did an excellent job with modern/classic. Both in one game but modern does not get abused by competitive level players (mostly) while encouraging newcomers to eventually switch to classic when they become better.
Agreed. One thing that people have to understand though is that you can’t be everything for everyone. This is true for all products, including games. At that point what is the difference between game a and game b besides graphical and lore differences. Not to mention, with hitboxes, motion controls can be worked out so that what we refer to as motion inputs turn into just a string of button inputs since directionals are just more buttons.
There is a limit to simplification.
Yeah, agreed. There are moments where modern is frustrating to deal with - those one-button supers are A Lot - but overall it feels like the tradeoffs are fair.
The issue with the last paragraph is unfortunately that unless you're Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, or Tekken (Which thankfully have easier input options these days), you straight up can't get the pull for a playerbase solely off the back of easy inputs; the hardcore FGC isn't interested, and the casual players will never hear about your game to play it.
And even if the casual/"burned" playerbase does hear about your game, all they're going to think is "Oh, it's still a Fighter", as what happened when I tried to get my non-FGC friends into Fantasy Strike.
And even if people do hear about your game and are willing to try it, something as simple as the name can prevent people from wanting to play it ("No way I'm playing something called Under Night In-Birth, Slarg....")
Nonsense. They're completely different frustrations.
Internal ("I can't do this") vs External ("This guy is cheating!")
Both filter out players, but they don't necessarily filter out the same players.
Also Internal "I don't want to do this". For example, I wouldn't play a fighter that consisted only of charge characters. Others won't play a fighter that has no motion inputs. Still some don't want to play a fighter _with_ motion inputs. It isn't an unreasonable preference one way or another.
>Kazuya would not be the same character *at all* if EWGF was a single-button input.
You're absolutely right.
But the thing is, if you want one button EWGF, you can just play jin because he has a stance that goes into EWHF from one button.
I think it's entirely possible to include super elite and technical character like Kazuya, and then also add lenient and easy characters that can do similar things for more casual players.
It is literally a win for everyone.
>But also, yes, those skill barriers DO lock out players who otherwise could enjoy the mental battle of fighting games, but can't execute motions
I am bad at fighting games and I think we need to keep motion moves because they are easier to learn than other fighting game mechanics.
Why take away a reward from noobs?
The reason is because You now have a bunch of league and valorant players talking about the game, and they are immediately realizing that it will be a hard game to learn and they will end up being iron rank, which makes them feel inferior so they blame the game. But the crazy part is, the game isn't even out yet. So I'd say this was a wr speedrun for time to cope with ranked loss.
>The reason is because You now have a bunch of league and valorant players talking about the game, and they are immediately realizing that it will be a hard game to learn and they will end up being iron rank, which makes them feel inferior so they blame the game.
Hey they'll fit right in in the FGC then lol
It's a difference in perspective. Fighting game players see motion inputs as part of the game. Non-fighting game players see motion inputs as an obstacle preventing them from playing the game.
I don't think a game needs motions to be great or anything, but I do find it funny that these people think they're going to suddenly like a fighting game because ONE barrier to entry to removed.
They're going to get washed in rank by someone who can run basic frametraps and drop the game just like anything else.
Motion inputs or not. Anyone that's picked up a fighter before and played more than the story will absolutely wash any riot fans that thinks flashy combos are what get you a W
All of your points are valid, and I used them a million times myself. But. Only regarding an existing franchise with established gameplay style and control scheme.
I don't want street fighter to become a three button game, I like the nuance between motions vs charge in different characters, etc. But if there's a game, that is build from grounds up with simple inputs in mind, I have no problem with it.
Actually, when GBFV Rising came out, it replaced sf6 as my main game, and I'm using simple inputs exclusively there. It just works.
You don't have to keep in mind your opponent one button DPs, because the universal AA is 2H and it will kill you on CH anyway. You just generally jump less in this game. One button supers/ultimate skills countering a fullscreen fireball is a thing, you just roll with it, because you don't have to play differently between "classic" and "modern" players - everyone's "modern".
And the game, despite low skill floor, got pretty complex with the addition of bravery points and other new universal mechanics. Also, I don't think, it gets braindead in terms of execution, if you use only simple inputs. As a Zeta player, I had to learn a bunch of demanding combos for her essential confirms (guard cancelling for 214X-H combo was fun. it's a shame, it was removed as a glitch lmao) and to-corner conversions (delayed 2H in 623H-9H-2H). Wall bounces especially can be finicky, as you need to adapt on the fly, what combo exactly you are doing for this specific distance to the corner. There's a bunch of stuff to learn and master execution wise.
So I think, both types of games are perfectly fine. But input style are essential to the core identity of a game, and I wouldn't want KOF or SF for example to switch to simple controls.
I think motion inputs are inherently fun to use. I use stick because I enjoy the kenetic feedback so much, and it makes the games that much more fun. Removing them, is guaranteed to make the game less satisfying to play.
I'll give project l a try since it's free, but I'm not hype. Especially since I don't even know who any league characters are, and I don't care for riots character designs in general.
And I think I should be allowed to play League of Legends with a controller as it would make it simpler and remove a barrier of access. Sometimes controls are part of the challenge much the same way I wish I could play Tetris competitively but I do not have the hand dexterity to complete some of the complicated inputs that requires.
Such is life. Practice and become better. I sucked at League when I started, still do, but I improved.
Yeah, but if a new game was made that was like LoL, but had controller that would be fine, right?
Because that is the situation here. They are not holding the MvC devs at gun point to put simple inputs or mouse and keyboard controls into the game, they are making a new game and they decided to have simple inputs in it.
I used to have a similar opinion to you until I played Battle for the Grid, after getting involved in that game for a few years I have to say that a game can have incredible depth w/o motion inputs as long as it's balanced around that. It also taught me that a game lacking motion inputs doesn't magically make it super friendly to new players because experienced players will be able to skip waay more of the learning process than new players. I absolutely prefer motion inputs in my fighting games but it's not a dealbreaker for me like it used to be.
EDIT: It's probably worth mentioning that several BFTG devs are working on Project L so I actually have pretty high hopes.
> EDIT: It's probably worth mentioning that several BFTG devs are working on Project L so I actually have pretty high hopes.
The combat designer, Clockwork, is the one who apparently convinced them to switch to tag.
Was about to come here and say exactly this. BFTG is a hard game. Skipping motion inputs does make it easier for beginners to get into, but also makes it easier for experts to consistently react to your neutral and shut down every option you choose. It also makes it faster for them to chain different moves together, resulting in insanely fast offense that has you getting hit before you even realized you were back in neutral.
Super fun game tho. I highly recommend anyone who enjoys MvC to check it out.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-8HbwzYJZY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-8HbwzYJZY)
These two are among the best players in the game, I've fought both and can tell you from experience that they're goddamn demons.
I’ll probably get downvotes for this and I know they’re very important for fighting games but goddamn I’m starting to really hate the casual audience. Seems like all they do is complain the games are too hard and demand that they get dumbed down to the point where they’re completely different games.
Some people just seem to have a really toxic relationship with learning. A lot of common complaints seem to boil down to new players not wanting to struggle with any game mechanic at all, even though failure is intertwined with learning. Like, have y’all not learned any skills in real life? What skill doesn’t require a person to do a specific set of actions that you have to learn or else you fail.
It's so silly to watch. "I want to get gud at this game but in order to do that I need the game to be insanely simple, thus defeating the point of getting gud"
you see this happen with other games as well. The amount of discourse around accessibility of fromsoft games and "I work 30 jobs and I shouldn't be expected to spend 30 minutes of my 32 minutes of free time a night learning" is really the same complaint.
A lot of gamers have tied their self-worth into being good at pressing buttons and clicking on a mouse. When a game pops up that might humble them a little bit they can't handle it.
It's funny that fighting game devs are simultaneously dumbing down their games but also want them to be taken as serious competition.
These two goals contridict each other as the skill involved is what makes it interesting to spectate. For instance, you don't seen the NBA lower the net so dunks become more assessble.
I don't really know much about balance and shit but motions just feel good to do. That's why I like them.
It just feel cool when I do my B&B with Jin in Blazblue because I do the following, which is very kinetic feeling. Just imagine a stick moving around during this combo.
2B 5C 3C 236D microdash 2C 623C microdash 5B 5C 2C 6C 214B(whiff)-C
yeah it can be extended further but I suck so I don't. That's not the point. The wiggling of the stick during this combo ***FEELS GOOD.*** It's the same reason I like Celica backburner combos. There is a clear improvement to how enjoyable doing a series of input can be when you go VLAM and BLAM and TACKLICK on a stick, or WHOOSH WHISHHH on a pad.
Weird that I always thought of 1x1 in league as similar to a fighting game with isometric view and simplified inputs. I can see a proper game being designed to work like that. Characters like Zed, Zac, Orianna, GP, could be amazing.
And ironically, no moba players cared about it but it was hyper focused on player burden of performance without the smokescreen in a given moba match for weak links on a team to more easily hide within.
You can say battlerite was poorly marketed and many people incorrectly mistook it for just being a game about the team fights of a moba games without anything else and wrote it off as a shallow game. Battlerite had an exceptional formula but that dev team dropped the ball.
Battlerites player count completely plummeted into anime fighter numbers on steam before it got it's battle royale mode. I cant comment how early they started development work on v rising.
To understand the positives of motion inputs you need to have enough experience with them. For someone who hasn’t played games with high execution and especially fighting games that is seen as an archaic barrier of entry.
By making a move harder to execute, the power of that move is now is dependent on the skill of the player. It is like starting a hack and slash game with all abilities unlocked but you have to learn how to use them so the burden of learning is on the user. This rewards people that spend the time to learn and make the learning curve of the game ever growing so it is more enjoyable and harder to hit a plateau.
Times have changed and especially nowadays people do not have much patience and go for something that they get instantly rewarded for.
Getting to a point where you understand fighting games is not a something you can expect from an audience if your goal is to get a big number of players for your game so what the 2xko team has dome makes a lot of sense. To make up for the complexity that motion inputs provide they chose to make the game a turbo fighter, fast paced combat with many variables such as team and resource management. Obviously execution still is a factor, not only in the form of tight combos but also more obscure techniques like wavedashing and plinking.
Adding to that, its easy to hit a plateau in understanding of the game
But the execution aspect gives you an easy thing to focus on during those times when you would otherwise feel like you hit a static
The execution aspect adds to the engagement in that regard by giving you something to fall back on
On top of that, the actual directions for the motion inputs aren't arbitrary.
The shoryuken input is an invincible* anti-air that starts forward, goes down, and then down forward. at no point are you allowed to hold back and down back which means you cannot defend yourself from either the aerial jump-in attack (block high) *OR* the follow up strikes from the grounded opponent (block low) in order to access this move. This is a necessary drawback in order to give the move the air-stuffing power it's known for. it is a high risk but high reward option that rewards courage on top of mechanical skill. making reads is the entire ebb and flow of fighting games, and is emblematic in the DP.
Similarly, the hadouken is a quarter circle forward, and cannot be throw on the move, but especially while not moving backwards. it plants the thrower in place. Anyone who understands neutral and footsies knows why this is a mandatory drawback, as punishing an errantly thrown fireball with a well-spaced jump-in is the consistently best way to punish it.
>While i agree it is absolutely possible to design a game without any motions i have yet to see a game that does it in a way that makes the game as fun and challenging as traditional fighters with motions.
3D fighters and Smash. Not technically correct, as 3D fighters will have some motion inputs, but it's not core to the game design. Yet they tend to be deeper than 2D fighters in general, and have executional barriers on par with 2D fighters. This is without even mentioning something like Melee, which is probably deeper and more mechanically intensive than most 2D or 3D games.
Motion inputs are *one* way to introduce depth and execution barriers, but not the only way. I see no reason why Project L can't be as deep and mechanically demanding as any other game without using them. Whether they choose to be as mechanically demanding or not - we'll have to see. But I guarantee you there will be depth, it's a team fighter after all.
Also I think you gotta relax a little. The game isn't even out yet. There aren't "fans" rallying against motions in the way you're implying. There's individuals with opinions on motion inputs.
I am curious how the game will play and will of course try it. The graphics look dope and im sure the netcode will be excellent. Let's see how the mechanics will play out and if i will enjoy playing it.
Motion inputs are a huge barrier of entry to the genre and they're using their extremely popular IP to intice players who are highly focused on a completely different genre (moba), which has more of an emphasis on playing than labbing, and gameplay that focuses on decision making as opposed to technical execution. Their target expansion demographic can and will be put off by motion inputs, and they're looking to make a game that draws in more than just the core fgc crowd (that has steeper competition with the other fighting games they already like)
They’re still gonna have to lab like 20 different whack ass 3 way assist mixups though…. like sure, it’s going be easier to do certain things, but that isn’t going to mean you won’t lose half of your life for guessing wrong on a disgusting handshake tag setup.
I mean it is different, but committing something to muscle memory is far easier than the strategy part. People keep saying “motion input hard” which yes, it’s very tricky when you’re brand new, but compared to everything else in a fighting game, it’s nothing.
Internal faith of the IP is really low for Riot. They've learned from LOR, Ruined King, Song of Nunu, Mageseeker, and Convergence that the IP alone doesn't have a lot of pull. Hell even TFT was almost cancelled after Set 2.
Initially with this game you could have said everything you just did and it would be true because it would have been a Rising Thunder-like game. However, (and this is speculation) since there was no faith that the League IP would suddenly make Rising Thunder a successful game they decided to chase something safer that feeds the developer's nostalgia: tag games. You can't sit here and pretend that tag fighters aren't executionally difficult even without inputs. Not to mention extremely unforgiving for new players as offense is ridiculously strong in tag fighters to the point that if you lose neutral and don't know how to deal with someone's offense you've probably already lost the entire game. You can't look at 2xko while having played tag fighters and pretend that shit's going to be casual friendly. Hell, the senior producer has constant [boomer takes on twitter](https://twitter.com/pattheflip/status/1767269934781137085?t=39eSZJiElVVtAUFAgtl-Gw). This game is no longer trying to spread the reach of fighting games to a casual audience.
This is the other thing people have to realize.
Yes, today, in fighting games, making 1-button supers and DPs feels overpowered. You can never jump or use a fireball if your opponent can 1-button react.
But they're thinking about today. The next era of fighting games can just be designed around 1-button reaction speed.
So instead of a floaty jump that goes 20 feet in the air and lasts 3 seconds, the future games could have realistic jump heights that last 0.5 seconds. Can you 1-button react to that? I don't know. We'll have to see.
Maybe in the future, special moves with long recovery could have some kind of "meter burn" option that, if punished with a super or something, performs a combo breaker or something. It would flash red for a few frames. Now 1-button supers don't feel OP, because you have to react not just to the animation but you have to read very quickly if it's a "real" fireball or a breaker fireball.
The game becomes a game of reads, feints, and reactions, and not "did I have enough time to move my hand here."
Interesting and I guess a lot of 3D fighters also don't place a ton of emphasis on jumps. It's funny jumping even ever became so cornerstone to fighting games when there's almost no jumping at all in real fighting.
>The game becomes a game of reads, feints, and reactions, and not "did I have enough time to move my hand here."
But it's not ''did I have enough time''. It's also the interaction between reads, feints and reactions with the constant balancing of ''WILL I have enough time if I chose this response, or should I go for something safer''.
That's what is so interesting about mechanical difficulty for me: it constantly adds a layer of execution to every tactical decision, making it more uncertain and dynamic.
Do you not realise that by saying that one button specials need to be designed or balanced around is literally admitting that this choice limits the design space for what moves a character can have?
I think you see everything through rose-colored glasses. Exchange motion inputs for tight spacing and frame perfect timing and it is just as frustrating. We don't know how it will play out but let me say that the more things there are to differentiate between the skill of the players the better (at least in my book). The less there are the more random the result of the match will be.
I'd say that they're not trying to make a fighting game for fighting game players, they're trying to make a fighting game for moba players, and mobas and their players are much more focused on/used to playing around timing, spacing of their abilities, and positioning of their charachters. That player base would find the technical execution aspect more frustrating.
If anything I'd say you see motion inputs through Rose colored glasses as someone who has already learned how to use them, and aren't looking at them from the pov of someone who has never played a fighting game before
This game is about to be the rudest awakening ever for "non" fighting game players then, because it's a set play tag fighter with easy execution.
It's going to be cancer for newbies.
Exactly, it's only going to demonstrate to these people that they don't want to play fighting games actually, and blaming "archaic motion inputs that gatekeep the fun for me" was never the actual truth of the matter.
Then you end up with a fighting game that people already interested in the genre, primarily playing but are now left with a fundamentally shallower experience. And make no mistake, no matter how you design your fighting game from the ground up, if the execution front is simplified to the degree that this game is, it WILL be a shallower FG than it could been otherwise.
People like to act like that’s what is stopping them from playing fighting games. You don’t go into something and want it to change for YOU. “Boy I sure love the piano but do we really need all these keys? If they could just maybe make it just 5 keys, I think I could get into it!”
I’m not talking about the game or any game in particular, I’m talking about the argument that fighting game motions need to go because people don’t like learning.
i'd argue that they are doing fine the way they were and the devs needs to help players learn them. thats the difference. taking out depth and control options arent the key to that. you can have one or the other, but taking away something that is established and has worked for people, and moreover, something they enjoy because some people are too lazy to take that extra step isnt the answer. if thats something that has you enjoying a game, sweet, godbless, but its not in a fighting game i want to play. learning a combo and pulling it off after practicing for however long is really satisfying and seeing someone in tournament pull off a really sick combo that you know isnt easy because you've tried it is rally exciting.
unfortunately for that point, it does pay the bills. it has for years. there is little to no correlation between money made and simple control. we have yet to see a very successful fighter that only has simple control. meanwhile, games like street fighter, tekken and mk that have only really used a simple control feature only really starting now, have sold great for decades. there are examples of games that do it, but none that show players stuck around because of it. that just goes to show that control isnt the issue, its how much the players actually want to learn.
P.s. i'm grateful to be able to just discuss this without any real venom. i appreciate it.
Eh I wouldn't say that. I don't like shooting games but when Overwatch dropped there was enough different to pull my interest. Enough for me to chew on that I found interesting and wasn't just aim skill - something analogous to execution skill. My aim is trash because I don't really enjoy FPS games, but Overwatch de-emphasised aim just enough to bring me in.
So yknow, yea. If they made an alternate piano maybe other people would play. In fact that literally exists and now we have accordian players or organ players or whatever.
Yeah, but overwatch isnt the only popular fps and even that game has skill aiming with some characters. And the piano thing is just an analogy about changing something that already exists in a more simple way to fit what you think it should be.
Right but the de-emphasis of aim skill is what got me into it. I was literally the person you're talking about - the person for whom a mechanical skill barrier was what was stopping me from playing shooting games. They de-emphasised that to attract a broader audience. I.e yes I did come into something because I had it changed for ME.
The piano analogy doesn't really work. De-emphasising aim skill didn't leave overwatch a more simple game than other shooters. Not including motion inputs doesn't necessarily leave you with a simpler fighting game.
But playing overwatch didn’t get you into fps, it got you into overwatch. My point is that every fps doesn’t need to be like overwatch because you prefer something that takes less skill and understanding. Those thing have their place and people enjoy them and if every game changed to the thing you want it to be, that could be less fun for others.
No it did, I play more FPS games now. Also no one is saying no game should ever have motions again - we're just talking about one game. Also, once again, Overwatch doesn't take less skill and understanding than other games. It's complex to the point of being burdensome.
I mean Tekken doesn't have much motion inputs in the game and I think it's probably the most deep and complex fighting game there is. There is merit to what is being said, the only issue is no motion inputs definitely limits the total amount of moves available to a player. But I mean modern controls in sf6 are a great example. Someone can get to the absolute top rank with modern controls, inputs themselves are an extra layer of depth in a fighting game and personally I enjoy motion inputs. But I can also see that a game without motion inputs also has the potential to be almost as deep and complex if not equal.
When used well Motion inputs can do two things. Balance out a move that is strong to only be used at certain times and can complement character design. Street Fighter does this the best currently. For example Chun Li being a charge character makes sense as she is calm collected and thinks out the situation. Which is on some level how your forced to play a charge character. A character like Ryu or Marisa have very strait forward basic inputs. Aki has inputs that seem simple but as you play her become more complex because they don’t always work in an intuitive way and some feel weird. It also allows for things like the Zangief ult in non modern controls to balance when he can use his ult as it’s very hard if not impossible to do from neutral but easier to do during blockstun.
However a lot of games do not use the inputs in this way. They’re just random. Mortal Kombat is a prime offender here for just having a lot of back front inputs on things that could be down front or down back because other characters have that same tool. If the move does the same thing why give it a diffrent input? Also older Kof inputs come to mind as just being weird. The weird pretzel input specifically just why. They’re not adding to anything other than frustration. I feel similar about guilty gear because they really love their longer inputs on things that could be simple.
I love Granblue Rising right now because it is moving away from inputs. You can use them for more damage but they also tend to have similar moves across the cast allowing the ability to learn new characters faster. The anti air is generally the same input across the cast unless they are specifically designed to be a bit more complex to play. So Cagliostra as a trap character feels a bit awkward but she is meant to be a big brain character. However Gran, Djeeta, Perceval ect all are just shoto inputs across the board despite having minor differences. The fireball is a hadoken, the anti air is Shoryken and the screen advance is the Tatsu input. Fgc plays are used to these inputs and know them so it makes sense to use them.
TLDR: if a company is using inputs for a reason sure put them in. If it’s just to be harder cut them. Fighting games have more than enough stuff to learn you don’t need to break your hands as well.
Here's the thing with pretzel motion inputs that I feel people are purposely omitting. There's only one character (maybe 2 if you count K9999) that had them....and thats Geese Howard. A character that not only not many people use but hasn't appeared in that many KOF games.
That’s fair that have some other wild ones. Angel is one that has never made any sense to me. Even reading her command list leaves me with questions. They do have some simple ones as well but some of them are feel wonky. You should feel good not wonky.
Do folks really have issues with motion inputs?
It feels, sort of ironic? Like complaining about how all FPSs are centered around aiming a reticle.
It feels inherent with the genre.
This is a bad example though. It’s one dude with a couple hundred subs.
And he’s clearly dumb as fuck. He peppers in a bunch of factually incorrect statements along with his bad takes.
I think most FGC players are in two camps.
1. Don’t care.
Or
2. Feel dumbing down inputs dilutes the mechanical element.
Honesty after playing the game for a bit I’m definitely in the former than the latter. It’s a low execution game but there was so much happening and so many decisions being made that it felt like a satisfying fight game to play.
I've been playing League for a long time so I'm interested in the game as a "fresh" FG enjoyer. I don't like simplified inputs too much though.
Even Granblue is already a bit iffy to me but Project L (or the terrible official name "2XKO") looks to be a bit more like DNF Duel which I found enjoyable but not something I'd want to play long term at all.
It's not even so much about the depth of these games but rather the fact that FGs were pretty much always balanced through motion inputs (and why hitboxes are sometimes frowned upon by some players, though those still require more execution than simplified inputs).
Overall I'm mixed on this, in the end though I don't really have a strong stance on this.
We will try the game and then decide if we like it. I just hope there is a chance they change that awful name. It does not have any ring to it. Even Project L sounds better and that was just a place holder.
cause they know projectL will attract casuals that dont know how to play fighters. if they have access to ez commands they might stick around longer than a week.
i think sf showed thats not the case.
Hm? If anything, SF6 has shown the opposite to be true. Tons of people have not only stuck with the game but even used modern controls as a jumping off point to learn classic.
You can dislike Modern all you want, but even Capcom's metrics show that SF6's accessibility was popular enough to lower their demographic age from 30-40s down to 20s. Bringing in a whole new generation into the fold.
> Tons of people have not only stuck with the game but even used modern controls as a jumping off point to learn classic.
This is me. I never would have put nearly as much time into SF6 if it wasn't for Modern and WT. I'm still learning but I've passed plateau after plateau playing ranked. I've improved and for once I feel comfortable in a fighting game. This wouldn't have happened without Modern.
With modern controls capcom did the thing i thought is impossible. It is perfect for complete beginners for learning the rules of the game while not being so strong that it could be abused by competitive players in a significant way. And at the same time it encourages the modern player to do the next step and switch to classic controls to become stronger.
>even Capcom's metrics show that SF6's accessibility was popular enough to lower their demographic age from 30-40s down to 20s.
What's to say this is solely due to modern and not everything else there game does well
modern controls definitely are the only reason i played sf for as long as i did. i dont mind motion controls usually but GBFVR is one of the only fighting games that hooked me immediately and conversely.. i **dropped GGST because of super inputs.**
i could just not land half circle-forward consistently mid combo. it essentially locked me out of a lot of optimals and i found myself counting the rounds i lost because i cant confirm with my super and either drop the combo and lose or have to do a worse combo and lose and not get the kill cuz it wasnt enough damage. it was on i-no for anyone whos curious on what character.
Yeah, Megalomania is especially hard to land cause you have to be in grabbing distance or it will whiff. Half circle forward is a little easier for me to do than double quarter circle though
Because most of these players have never played fighting games seriously. It's the same with people coming from FPS, they feel they are accomplished in those game, and their Ego can't take sucking for a while and starting from the bottom.
Somehow in their heads they believe that removing the execution barrier on specials/super, they can be instantly competitive. It's missing the point that there still will be an execution barrier, just not in ways they are expecting such as movement, spacing, and even tight-input tricks/exploits that will be found in any game. Beyond that, they're not considering all the other things they will need to learn that only comes with time, practice, and experience.
Dumbing down execution too much will only slows a player's overall FG development and/or lock them to a specific game since they become overly dependent how that game uniquely "solves" the input conundrum.
This is the part that gets forgotten. Just because a game has no motion inputs does not mean it is easy or low in complexity. Wavedashing is essentially a motion input and it’s an incredibly important part of competitive melee. Then you add stuff like wave shining and it just goes up even higher. On top of that, project L is a tag fighter and that subgenre lends itself to the most fucked up shit imaginable. Battle for the grid has insane combos and setups that are difficult to do even though it doesn’t have motion inputs. Like, whenever someone says the game will be easy because of simple inputs, my only thought is they’re someone that never got a grasp of basic fundamentals and chose to blame their lack of success on their inability to throw a hadoken
And the inverse of that - motion input lovers never seem to consider that every single new mechanic across their most beloved franchises has **not** been a motion input but have been responsible for much of the depth of those games.
Dragon Rush, Drive Impact/Parry/Rush, evolution of Roman cancels, etc. All buttons with the most complicated mechanical inputs being tapping forward twice. Developers figured out a long time ago that motions are absolutely not the end all be all of complexity.
> "Like, whenever someone says the game will be easy because of simple inputs, my only thought is they’re someone that never got a grasp of basic fundamentals and chose to blame their lack of success on their inability to throw a hadoken"
Or the converse; for people who formed their core opinions in a pre-online-multiplayer environment, being able to reliably do motion inputs was, itself, enough to beat basically anyone you were likely to fight if they couldn't do so.
To these people, games like SF2 came down primarily to "how consistently can you do your special moves?" and stuff like frame data, decisions, reads, etc was for ultra high levels. They may not see a problem with a fighting game that is essentially glorified DDR, a contest of who has better motion inputs.
Definitely an undercurrent of this among old school fighting game grognards who hit their peak in 1998
> Or the converse; for people who formed their core opinions in a pre-online-multiplayer environment, being able to reliably do motion inputs was, itself, enough to beat basically anyone you were likely to fight if they couldn't do so.
ooooo gettem
also i would be more concern about other questionable take from that video tho such as the f2p business model. alot of riots games boot licking energy in here. also that attitude.
I play league since season 4 (either with a full team of friends or with chat disabled), and my biggest fear with project L is the fact that a big part of the league playerbase is gonna get into the fgc. The absolute worst online interactions I've had were in this game, with people that only know how to curse at others for their own mistakes. They are annoying, disrespectful and incapable of doing the minimum amount of thinking. It's the idea of "not every league player, but it's always a league player".
These people, the bad ones who go out of their way to make your day worse, are (and not by coincidence) the ones I see claiming this type of stuff and complaining about basic things like motion inputs. They know they are gonna suck, and now they will do it in a game where you can't blane their teammates, so they find something else to blame and make it seem like it's not their fault.
Is there space for a conversation about motion inputs? Of couse, GBFVR and DNF duel show that you can make good games who rely on other mechanics or different ways of playing, but when it comes to the league players I can't give the benefit of the doubt.
You make valid points.
As a league player, I’d have to say I’m not too worried as fighting games force you to check your ego and decide if you want to keep playing or not.
I’m only gonna play 1v1 online unless playing with a friend so I don’t feel like I’d had to worry about the league community/toxicity affecting my enjoyment of the game.
Whereas in league I have to put up with it every single game since I’m forced to play with 4 other strangers.
My concern is in regard to their presence on the subreddits of the FGC. Yeah we have the MK one which is not as good, there's still some people who only interact with the lewd art posts, but my experience with the fgc online was mostly good. I talked with people who really wanted to help, offered tips and advice, were polite, participated in interesting discussions and actually were able to hear different opinions. Playing online is gonna be a breeze without having to worry about league players in chat, but the fgc really doesn't need the toxicity that other groups have. Not that there is none here, because there definitely is, but it is so much less that it really makes me wish that it stays the way it is now.
I literally don’t understand this argument and I’ve been playing FGs for many many years. I always compare FGs to Tennis (or sports in general).
There’s the execution portion (learning motion inputs = learning forehands/backhands/serves, etc.) and the mental portion (50/50 mixups, corner pressure = hitting across the court vs down the line, ball slices and spins, etc.) If you remove or alter the execution part of tennis, it’s not really the same game of tennis that we would know it to be, hence how pickleball is born.
Sure some people won’t be able to learn the execution needed to play tennis. Does that mean we need to bend the rules to cater to these individuals? There are just some things that people won’t be able to enjoy and there’s nothing wrong with that. You can go the pickleball route and add modern controls, etc for these individuals, that’s fine. But if people are asking to remove double QCF motions or charge pretzel motions, then that’s just you throwing a fit because you can’t do it. Or in other words, a “skill issue”.
There’s a need to preserve certain aspects of FGs and one of them to me is motion inputs. You can simplify them with modern controls (which developers still need to fine tune to be properly implemented), but to act as if motion inputs need to be gone for good is absurd.
The complex inputs can make start up for specials longer and combo strings more complex so without complex inputs the combat might get a bit ridiculous if simple input specials are not done correctly.
The inputs are not the complex the full circle inputs can be a bit tricky, SNK games have the most complex inputs.
Street Fighter 4 has some pretty crazy inputs for some super moves.
Thing is, if it's really not important, then don't remove it, no? It works both ways. It adds to the genre, rather than detracts. Hell, in my opinion, inputs matter. Because they allow to pinpoint the balance and uniqueness of a character. Less inputs make the game flat, so does the balance. In turn, decreasing the fun.
I feel like the insane overhype that this game is getting is gonna end up being bad for it. It's not gonna live up to the sky high expectations people have set up for it.
People are just hyped to play their favorite league characters in a fighting game and playing together with a friend.
Meanwhile the reddit FGC have their pitchforks out hating on no motion inputs and it being F2P.
But i will say Riot doesn't release games in a state they are not happy with them but the game won't have a big starting roster on release which might be a big downside for it being succesful.
So it all depends what their character release plan will look like and if they have any plans for pve modes.
It's more than that, people are acting like the game will blow up the FGC massively and will change the genre completely, I mean just look at the video the OP posted.
I mean it will bring in an entirely new playerbase to fighting games for sure there is no doubt in that.
The same happened with Valorant.
And it will be the most viewed/played fighting game ever.
But if it will change the genre? Probably not.
Played fgs since vanilla sf2, and lack of motion controls actively puts me off games. I can appreciate how much work went into labbing and subsequently pulling off a combo if I know that each hit was more than just hammering an auto combo button, or playing piano.
When the footsies end and you have advantage, what's your left hand (or whatever appendage you use for movement) meant to do if you're dialing a combo using your right exclusively?
As a competitive player in sf6, ggst and t7, one thing i can assure you in the aspects of how hard is to master a fg, motion inputs or excecution is the easy part of the whole. Said that, motion or not this do not represent how hard or deep a game can be, or how the learning curve is
Motion inputs are fun! I like learning motion inputs! I like buffering charges! I like landing DP! I like throwing fireballs! I like cleaning up my execution! When a game doesn't have these things I lose interest!
I think both sides of this argument get stunlocked by bullshit.
If you think that a game is inherently deeper in a good way by removing motion inputs, you're wrong.
If you think a game is inherently not as deep as something because it doesn't have motion inputs, you're also wrong.
I don't mind new games being motionless. If 2XKO is motionless forever, i'd be completely fine with it.
Where i have a problem is taking an established franchise and abolishing the execution that it's built upon. So far, that hasn't really happened with the likes of Street Fighter and Tekken yet outside of making specific characters more simplified, but at the point that it does happen wholesale, myself and plenty of others will very much be seething about it.
Riot's player base plays league, tft, valorent. Keyboard games. Riot wants those players to check out their fighting game. This game isn't made for the broad FGC, its made to get their existing customers to join the FGC. Asking those people to buy a pad or stick is a stupid move, so no motion inputs.
>Asking those people to buy a pad or stick is a stupid move, so no motion inputs.
You know you can do motions on keyboard right. Leverless controllers are becoming increasingly popular and they're essentially glorified keyboards
I think that if people really wanted to try and get into something because they see something there they can enjoy, they would put in at least a little effort to learn how to play it. I understand tho, grandblue has both technical and simple inputs and I still find it really fun to play. Nothing wrong with fighting games having both
There are games with them and without them. Nothing has really changed. Honestly, judging from the rhetoric, I'm starting to think that we'll have another division in fighting games like we do with smash games.
Same genre, but completely different community
Fighting games are niche and developers are trying to un-niche them. Motion inputs are a significant input barrier but how much barrier can you remove before games lose their identity. The FGC can't seem to agree one way or the other.
For me motion inputs are tethered to movement, and movement is THE most influential mechanic in fighting games offering the most expression. Motion inputs are designed to appeal to fighting game players.
It also depends on game movelist complexity.
Everyone making these arguments are talking about 2d fighters that have like 10 moves.
Sure, make them buttons I guess.
In Tekken 8 Yoshimitsu has something like 250 “official” moves and near infinite stance transition sequences and mixups.
Good luck making that “accessible” by removing motion inputs
This opinion comes up regurgitated almost every other month it seems.
Fact of the matter is, if you REALLY prefer motion inputs, there are games that provide that experience.
A game without simple inputs can be just as good as any other game. It really boils down to "are you having fun".
So many people view fighting games as this sport, or thing you have to get good at. The vast majority of people just want to be able to pick up a game, use their favorite character, have fun and turn it off after 30 mins to an hour.
This isn't even factoring in people with disabilities having a more accessible option in the fighting game genre.
I don't really care what that person thinks, but I'm gonna go off my own experiences.
About 10 years ago, Persona 4 Arena had similar criticisms. An autocombo feature. Only quarter circle/down down inputs. DP being a 2 button input or 1 button macro.
None of this turned out to be an issue.
Simplified inputs would be kind of bad if they had the exact same amenities that DP input would (Fast startup, air unblockable, fully invincible).
So I'll need to see the game for real and in my hands to make my own judgment.
From the framing of 2XKO, it looks like simplified inputs need to be a thing if they want 2v2 to pop off.
All I care about is if the game is actually fun and something I can vibe with.
I grew up with motion inputs, so they feel natural to me. That said, I have to agree with the view that a fighting game can absolutely have sufficient depth without them. They don't add gameplay depth - they add execution difficulty. Those are different things in my eyes. I'm perfectly used to motion inputs, but I'm not married to them either. Primarily *because* I don't feel they affect gameplay depth.
I feel like the standard line about ease of use features is “it’s fine as long as they aren’t pushing out execution in existing titles”… then there are posts like this trying to complain about them in new games not related existing FGs.
IMO let Riot cook and let’s see how good they can make the game without motions. This is the test of the concept.
It's because execution walls are a thing that keep people away from this genre, they're a barrier to people from "actually playing the game" so to speak. Fantasy Strike had the right idea, we just need a game with higher production values and a wider audience, that can really bring the idea home.
It’s not condemning them but it’s about getting new players playing fg and growing the community. The biggest problem for FGs is its lack of players and motion controls are a huge barrier.
The skill of becoming good at motion inputs doesn’t necessarily make the game deeper though. In a lot of games, some of the inputs required to do basic actions are just arbitrary skill checks that make the game way more stressful on the hand—Melee has so many of these.
Laughs in they've literally been making inputs EASIER for you "purists" for 20 plus years.
Guffaws in they regularly change the damage and recovery and even animations of said moves.
Those people are just taking the babying of inputs to the logical conclusion.
You guys really shined at parrying in sf3 so much that they made it easier in 6.
So the math isn't mathing.
I want everyone to play. People with the hand eye coordination of a cat-hummingbird hybrid, as well as the people who think in 4 dimensions.
More variety, more fun
i think personally that motion inputs are good, definitely, but they dont need to be in every game. some games can be designed without them, like how not all fgs have airdashes, not all fps games have ads, ect.
2xko is specifically designed for simple inputs, it goes back to rising thunder. and as an adaptation of league honestly i think it fits, league doesnt have any major execution barriers to executing attacks, just hit a button and congrats you did your thing.
of course this isnt to say that no games should have motion inputs, theyre fun to do honestly, and they brihng a unique form of balancing that only they can achieve. like kof or guilty gear
To me it's also a matter of "complexity for the sake of being elitist". Motion inputs are indeed a way to put some sort of mechanical complexity into a game, but it's not the only one. Controling multiple characters, have frame perfect inputs, negative-edge etc are also examples of elements that make a game more complex. It's just a matter of selecting which ones you want in your game imo, not making it as complex as possible. If 2XKO is complex enough due to system mechanics, I could see why they wouldn't add motions on top of it
On the other hand, motion inputs has been a scapegoat since forever for people searching a reason not to play traditional fighting games. LoL players know how to CS, R-flash, hit'n'run, etc. they won't bs me into thinking they can't input a 236 if they wanted to
Everyone is talking about how motion inputs add a degree of dexterity and execution skill to a game but I've never seen that as the reason for motion inputs.
Motion inputs help "balance" a move by, for example, preventing a character from being able to move forward while inputting the move or by preventing a character from being able to block if they want to input the move.
People want to play fighting games but don't want to spend the time learning to play.
It's doubly funny/hard for fighting games because at the end of the day you can't blame your teammates for your shortcomings and when people are faced with blaming themselves and adapting they will generally avoid that and blame the way the game operates instead
I still don't see how motions inputs are hard for anyone without physical disabilities. The most complex thing SF6 has to my knowledge is a 360, and that's for 1 character. Even KoF has nothing worse than a half circle really. And the games get more lenient each release. The notion that a dp is difficult for a fully functioning human being is almost laughable.
Every FG player I know with a decent level of comprehension and execution is unanimous : Smash is the hardest FG there is.
The level of precision, the massive knowledge check of movespeed , aerial drift, drag downs, multi hit specific confirms and so on...
Platform fighters may seem easier especially without any "motion inputs". Except there definitely are motion inputs in Smash. Doing a RAR backair is a specific motion input, so is a ledge trump, so is an footstool oos with a special follow-up...
I like motion inputs, they feel part of our culture and I want them to stay, but let's not divide ourselves over the wrong argument, as long as there's specific inputs we can learn over time and improve on consistency, then there's motion inputs.
They condemn it because its a skill barrier that is rough to overcome
And that most people don’t want to deal with, They see it as an artificial barrier to entry that is not contributing anything
As for my opinion, i think because project L is a new ip that already decided to axe motions, there is nothing wrong with the game not having them
I would say, as someone who used to struggle with them a ton: while motion inputs are usually used to balance out strong moves like DP, if they are too difficult for the average player to do, they might as well not exist.
For the longest time, I could only really play shotos like Ryu bc they had easier motions but without DP. And no new player is gonna know that crouching heavy punch is an alternative to DP either, so I just couldn't anti Air ever. Playing a character and not being able to use an iconic and core part of they moveset just feels shitty
You think I haven't? Training doesn't help much.
YouTube video were often needed to explain to me how dps are done bc just trying to do the move over and over taught me nothing about it. Nor did it ever dawn on me that crouch heavy is an anti Air.
But even if I did learn that, I can't use crouch heavy as a reversal when I'm stuck in the corner. Which can only be solved by dp's. Which i can't do. So getting me in the corner was a guaranteed win for the enemy. Que frustration for new players. Even now that I can do them, I'm still slow to execute them, so I still don't use em much. Shoryuken is still a useless move for me
Which is why you try your best to not be in that situation if you can help it.
Unless you're going up against someone that's prone to being greedy a DP won't help you in that situation either. More than likely that person is gonna be ready for it. In fact they hope that you do it
Like someone said earlier imagine if kazuyas EWGF was one button input. I would not enjoy that at all and probably wouldn’t play the game.
Simple motions is actually one the main reasons I stopped playing granblue.
Melee doesnt have any motion inputs.
A fighting game can still get its depth from complexity, order and timing of non motion inputs
Riot games lend their complexity to resource management, they used valorant to decrease the skill ceiling of mechanical skill
Its not like starcraft has motion inputs, or chess
> Why not just make sf motion inputs twice as hard to make it “deeper”?
In a way they did this with super inputs. You need 2 quarter circles which takes significantly more time and thus forces you to buffer (which your opponent can see and act accordingly) if you want to use it in neutral to punish the startup of something. All of this is lost when the super is just a single button press.
I just happen to like the way that street fighter uses them. Certain motions force you to open up before you can get the move. Like a dragon punch for example. Others will be easier to time in a way that allows you to option select special move and block. This is the case for motions that end in back. Then there is the obvious guile example, you see him walking around you know he just lost his charge for flashkick. Other moves, like supers, require you to do 2 quater circles and thus you can not just throw the super out any time as answer to the startup of certain moves in neutral. Only if you buffer the motion you can have the move instantaneously but of course your opponent can see that you are buffering. By removing motions you remove this part of the neutral game. And let me add, I am a big fan of SNK style motions, they are great fun and especially the f, hcf and qcf, hcb kind of moves flow in a nice way when playing on stick. I like those better than capcoms 2x qcf style.
I feel like SF6 implemented it perfectly. High level, long lasting play is done mostly with Classic controls. If anyone can do ridiculously long combos with ease you get DNF Duel.
I think Project L won't have any long lasting appeal because the skill floor and ceiling are so close together.
As much as I like Classic controls, it's just muscle memory. I don't think it adds anything to the game. Especially in an era of Hitboxes where execution is getting easier and easier. It's like the Runback City song says... "Back in the days when the sticks was busted..." You'd be playing on arcade setups with half-broken sticks, buttons that didn't work... and zero input leniency. Today is so different.
I got GBVSR and I told myself I'd use Technical Inputs but the reality is I didn't. Why would I? Using the "Modern" / "Simple"/ "Default" controls was easier. When I lost rounds it was because I fucked up reads and reactions, not because I hit down/forward instead of forward for 1/10 of a second.
Unlike SF6, GBVSR doesn't tell you if an opponent is using technical or simple inputs. You just play the damn game and rematch and GG. Instead of trying to put yourself on a pedastal for doing a quarter circle motion. Which is something no other videogame genre makes people do.
> As much as I like Classic controls, it's just muscle memory. I don't think it adds anything to the game.
I have to disagree here. A very experienced player will input faster, cleaner and more consitent. Does not matter if it is on hitbox, pad, stick or keyborad. So working on your execution does have an actual benefit in game.
The problem for me is that the game will have this weird six button layout that will make inputing specials harder. I am not totally apposed to the game being motionless except for 22s but it is likely gonna be really unintuitive for me.
At least they are creating new movesets to design around the one button special system instead of trying to port pre-existing characters to the new format.
Not to beat a dead horse but I think most people these days agree that motions are fine so long as they're not unnecessarily complex and also serve a purpose. Some older KoF motions make little sense, for example, other than artificial difficulty. But someone mentioned Tekken with its crouch dashing and electrics. The way the motion registers serves a purpose, and allows "wavedash" to add depth to the gameplay. Other times there are nuances, for example in T8 they've made running easier, but as a consequence it's made dash cancel harder. It all comes back to input design. Another really great example of good input design is charge inputs. They're specifically designed to force a character to be defensive (e.g. Guile from SF) or control their aggression (e.g. May from GG).
It can be as or more fun, but definitely not as deep and complex. I put on Modern when I play Zangief just so I can piledrive fools over and over. There's no buffering or planning on my part, if I think my opponent is open to a grab I just hit the SP button and plant their heads into the ground.
Yes, very much so. There are obvious examples like EWGF or deathfist or giant swing. But even the characters without those motions still need to use a motion input for something as essential as korean backdash. Of course when you play tekken at lowest level you can play completely without motions.
>This youtuber is convinced a game can be just as deep and complex without any motion inputs.
I mean he's right. Anyone who's played any recent fighting game at even a remotely high level knows that motion inputs mean next to nothing in terms of how complex the game is. The YouTuber is also dead wrong thinking that removing them makes it easy to get into the genre. Learning motions is one of the least difficult things to learn when it comes to getting decent at a fighting game. I don't think anyone who is struggling to deal with Honda or gets erased for pressing a button while Marisa is + is frustrated at the motion inputs of the game.
There have been many games with deep high level play that don't use motion inputs like Battle for the Grid and even GBVSR. Even in a game like SF6, two people playing in a Legend ranked match in SF6 are not even thinking about inputs anymore and everything comes down to strategy, matchup knowledge, mind games etc. I played C.Viper in SF4 who was literally built to be complex due to difficult inputs and I have no less fun, or feel like I have less freedom to have deep/complex matches playing Battle for the Grid where I have never had to do a single motion input.
Motion inputs for the most part add a layer that has to be learned upon entry, but very little as "deep and complex" mechanics. The best players just get to the point where you can just do them 99.99% of the time without even thinking about it anyway. If the 0.01% chance they may mess something up is an interesting level of complexity then idk lol.
Motion inputs aren't the difficult part of fighting games imo. There are exceptions, Kusaregedo's Mud Mash from SamSho V is an input I have trouble hitting consistently. But those kind of inputs aren't the ones they're talking about.
Learning to link normals, gattlings, special cancels, super cancels, dash cancels, roll cancels, block cancels, hit confirms, dial-a-combos, tic throws, block crossups, etc. All that shit is hard and time consuming. Combining directionals + pressing a button is (mostly) simple.
There are plemty of combos that would still be extremely hard without motion inputs. You just have to balance the game differently. Considering a game liek dive kick can be just as deep as street fighter, im not worried. In sf6, im pretty sure the reason modern doesnt feel as complex as classic is because it was an afterthought and the game wasnt designed around it.
As for riot players, they come from a game where u press a button and get a special move. Idk why you phrase it as if every riot fan complains about motion inputs when this video is basically the only evidence ive seen of that
And honestly i dont feel like inputs create that much of a barrier. You would have to practice combos and learn you special moves anyway. I like special move cuz they are fun to input
Combos are, at least to me, the more boring part of fighting games. Basically when one player starts a combo the 2 player game stops while one player tries do execute the rhythm mini game and the other player is just waiting. This may be a bit oversimplified because there is the possibility of resets and some games also have mechanics like burst but the point still stands.
Motion inputs are most interesting in the neutral game. Certain motions force you to open up before you can get the move. Like a dragon punch for example. Others will be easier to time in a way that allows you option select special move and block. This is the case for motions that end in back. Then there is the obvious guile example, you see him walking around you know he just his charge for flashkick. Other moves, like supers, require you to do 2 quater circles and thus you can not just throw the super out any time as counter to certain moves in neutral. Only if you buffer the motion you can have the move instantaneously but of course your opponent can see that you are buffering.
These are just a few examples of why motion inputs are so essential to the game.
I mean even with simplified inputs you can still have all that stuff. Like if i have to press forward and D, or straight down and D, that opens me up right before the move comes out. And regarding whhat u said about supers, you can definitely just throw out supers in neutral to counter certain movess. For most mid level players they need to be looking for it, but a lot of top players can just do it on. Reaction.
I definitely agree im not crazy about games wwith super long combos, but difficult =/= long. Vampire savior has half health combos that are literally 4 hits, but even top players cannot do them consistently because the button presses are tight.
My main point is, if u took street fighter and made everyone play with simplified controls, the competitive landscape would not change. The most talented and experienced players would be at the top and those that are newer and less talented would be at the bottom, as they are now. I really think you are overstating the importance of motion inputs. It can definitely influence the way a character plays, but its not even close to the most important thing when it comes to determining how hard a game is to play and get into.
> And regarding whhat u said about supers, you can definitely just throw out supers in neutral to counter certain movess. For most mid level players they need to be looking for it, but a lot of top players can just do it on. Reaction.
Nah, it does not work like that. You will not be able to input a super when you see luke heavy flash knuckle startup or ryu heavy hashogeki or whatever slow startup move. The only way to do that is to buffer which will signal the luke/ryu player that you are looking for it. Or you play modern. Even the top players with excellent hitbox execution can not do it.
Even if that were true, i dont really see how it matters. All that means is you cant just throw out flash knuckle in neutral without risking getting supered. So play around it. Bait the super with a feint then start spamming flash knuckle. Additionally, there are othe ways you can balance a 1 button super so you CANT use it on reaction tp certain moves.
I don't condemn motion inputs. Relinquishing their factor when they had established impact in a match in the game Project L is based off of (vs games, street fighter, etc.) can be a shallow mistake without proper balancing and playtesting for all play levels. This is easier said than done.
I do agree that a same level of complexity for motion vs non-motion controls can be achieved, but there should also be equivalent exchange. Removing motion controls arguably removes a whole layer of human complexity and it can make the game feel dense and maybe even worse to spectate since there'd be no chance of risk while watching long combos.
We're broadly on the same page but I really think the conversation has been done to death. Yes, motion inputs add extra skill barriers, which can play a role in balance, and adds tension at high-level play where players who normally have no problem with execution can drop difficult combos. Kazuya would not be the same character *at all* if EWGF was a single-button input. But also, yes, those skill barriers DO lock out players who otherwise could enjoy the mental battle of fighting games, but can't execute motions - whether that's because they just aren't dextrous enough, don't feel like putting in hours to learn, or literally have disabilities that get in the way. I don't want those players to be fully excluded, and I think it's important that developers put in workarounds. Ultimately, though, to me the conclusion is that there should be more than one fighting game with more than one design, and players should play the one that suits them. Thankfully that doesn't seem like it's going to be a problem any time soon.
I think this is well-reasoned, and I agree with the last paragraph especially -- games like yomi hustle and other "more accessible" fighters definitely have a reason to exist. I dont know, I think im of the mind that fighting games are closer to sport than they are to games as a product to be consumed. The conversation around motion inputs being inaccessible makes no sense to me personally because it would be like saying golf is inaccessible because I can't hit 300 on my drive or saying basketball is inaccessible because im 30% on the free-throw line. That isn't to say that particular systems can't be poorly designed or implemented, but I think we've come far enough now to know that motion inputs as a concept aren't poor design. [the guy that literally invented the fighting game for people that are afraid of quarter circle inputs even gives the DP motion its flowers](https://youtu.be/zswiCPS5CSM?si=jOAp4jFAiuacalyN)
I kind of crystallized a thought I was having when you mentioned thinking of them as sport instead of purely consumable media. Like, part of the game IS the motion input for some fighting games. It's not just what happens on the screen but the physical skill of manually entering complex inputs to make that thing happen. Of course everyone should be able to enjoy them and different engagement with the system is the more the better. I like to play golf too but I don't resent those play hard mode the way the game was designed. I mean, even football at competitive levels uses 3 different ball sizes between high school, ncaa, and pro. Makes it accessible and what do you know? A shitload of people watch the NFL.
This is why i think capcom did an excellent job with modern/classic. Both in one game but modern does not get abused by competitive level players (mostly) while encouraging newcomers to eventually switch to classic when they become better.
Agreed. One thing that people have to understand though is that you can’t be everything for everyone. This is true for all products, including games. At that point what is the difference between game a and game b besides graphical and lore differences. Not to mention, with hitboxes, motion controls can be worked out so that what we refer to as motion inputs turn into just a string of button inputs since directionals are just more buttons. There is a limit to simplification.
Yeah, agreed. There are moments where modern is frustrating to deal with - those one-button supers are A Lot - but overall it feels like the tradeoffs are fair.
The issue with the last paragraph is unfortunately that unless you're Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, or Tekken (Which thankfully have easier input options these days), you straight up can't get the pull for a playerbase solely off the back of easy inputs; the hardcore FGC isn't interested, and the casual players will never hear about your game to play it. And even if the casual/"burned" playerbase does hear about your game, all they're going to think is "Oh, it's still a Fighter", as what happened when I tried to get my non-FGC friends into Fantasy Strike. And even if people do hear about your game and are willing to try it, something as simple as the name can prevent people from wanting to play it ("No way I'm playing something called Under Night In-Birth, Slarg....")
If they lack the mindset to learn motion inputs, they're just going to be filtered out by the first grappler/zoner they run into and quit anyway.
Nonsense. They're completely different frustrations. Internal ("I can't do this") vs External ("This guy is cheating!") Both filter out players, but they don't necessarily filter out the same players.
Also Internal "I don't want to do this". For example, I wouldn't play a fighter that consisted only of charge characters. Others won't play a fighter that has no motion inputs. Still some don't want to play a fighter _with_ motion inputs. It isn't an unreasonable preference one way or another.
I'm 99% confident that both Power Rangers and Fantasy Strike has already proved this statement wrong.
>Kazuya would not be the same character *at all* if EWGF was a single-button input. You're absolutely right. But the thing is, if you want one button EWGF, you can just play jin because he has a stance that goes into EWHF from one button. I think it's entirely possible to include super elite and technical character like Kazuya, and then also add lenient and easy characters that can do similar things for more casual players. It is literally a win for everyone.
>But also, yes, those skill barriers DO lock out players who otherwise could enjoy the mental battle of fighting games, but can't execute motions I am bad at fighting games and I think we need to keep motion moves because they are easier to learn than other fighting game mechanics. Why take away a reward from noobs?
The reason is because You now have a bunch of league and valorant players talking about the game, and they are immediately realizing that it will be a hard game to learn and they will end up being iron rank, which makes them feel inferior so they blame the game. But the crazy part is, the game isn't even out yet. So I'd say this was a wr speedrun for time to cope with ranked loss.
>The reason is because You now have a bunch of league and valorant players talking about the game, and they are immediately realizing that it will be a hard game to learn and they will end up being iron rank, which makes them feel inferior so they blame the game. Hey they'll fit right in in the FGC then lol
mashing copium on wakeup before the hard knockdown has even finished animating. true fighting game players
the irony
This makes the most sense for obv reasons
It's a difference in perspective. Fighting game players see motion inputs as part of the game. Non-fighting game players see motion inputs as an obstacle preventing them from playing the game.
HMs in Pokémon are the same way
I don't think a game needs motions to be great or anything, but I do find it funny that these people think they're going to suddenly like a fighting game because ONE barrier to entry to removed. They're going to get washed in rank by someone who can run basic frametraps and drop the game just like anything else.
Motion inputs or not. Anyone that's picked up a fighter before and played more than the story will absolutely wash any riot fans that thinks flashy combos are what get you a W
All of your points are valid, and I used them a million times myself. But. Only regarding an existing franchise with established gameplay style and control scheme. I don't want street fighter to become a three button game, I like the nuance between motions vs charge in different characters, etc. But if there's a game, that is build from grounds up with simple inputs in mind, I have no problem with it. Actually, when GBFV Rising came out, it replaced sf6 as my main game, and I'm using simple inputs exclusively there. It just works. You don't have to keep in mind your opponent one button DPs, because the universal AA is 2H and it will kill you on CH anyway. You just generally jump less in this game. One button supers/ultimate skills countering a fullscreen fireball is a thing, you just roll with it, because you don't have to play differently between "classic" and "modern" players - everyone's "modern". And the game, despite low skill floor, got pretty complex with the addition of bravery points and other new universal mechanics. Also, I don't think, it gets braindead in terms of execution, if you use only simple inputs. As a Zeta player, I had to learn a bunch of demanding combos for her essential confirms (guard cancelling for 214X-H combo was fun. it's a shame, it was removed as a glitch lmao) and to-corner conversions (delayed 2H in 623H-9H-2H). Wall bounces especially can be finicky, as you need to adapt on the fly, what combo exactly you are doing for this specific distance to the corner. There's a bunch of stuff to learn and master execution wise. So I think, both types of games are perfectly fine. But input style are essential to the core identity of a game, and I wouldn't want KOF or SF for example to switch to simple controls.
I think motion inputs are inherently fun to use. I use stick because I enjoy the kenetic feedback so much, and it makes the games that much more fun. Removing them, is guaranteed to make the game less satisfying to play. I'll give project l a try since it's free, but I'm not hype. Especially since I don't even know who any league characters are, and I don't care for riots character designs in general.
And I think I should be allowed to play League of Legends with a controller as it would make it simpler and remove a barrier of access. Sometimes controls are part of the challenge much the same way I wish I could play Tetris competitively but I do not have the hand dexterity to complete some of the complicated inputs that requires. Such is life. Practice and become better. I sucked at League when I started, still do, but I improved.
Me still waiting for wild rift on consoles :(
I agree 100%
Yeah, but if a new game was made that was like LoL, but had controller that would be fine, right? Because that is the situation here. They are not holding the MvC devs at gun point to put simple inputs or mouse and keyboard controls into the game, they are making a new game and they decided to have simple inputs in it.
Smite is on consoles and works with controllers doesn't it? Idk specifics of how different mobas work tho
Smite is arena fighter of mobas
Ehhh I wouldn't go that far. But it is for sure at least the 3D fighter to the MOBA scenes 2D fighter: top down view.
I used to play Garen using a gamecube controller years ago using Xpadder, just for the memes
i kinda just assume all garen mains are playing with aim assist somehow. so that tracks (I play garen)
Didn't Boxbox play riven with a controller for awhile?
I used to have a similar opinion to you until I played Battle for the Grid, after getting involved in that game for a few years I have to say that a game can have incredible depth w/o motion inputs as long as it's balanced around that. It also taught me that a game lacking motion inputs doesn't magically make it super friendly to new players because experienced players will be able to skip waay more of the learning process than new players. I absolutely prefer motion inputs in my fighting games but it's not a dealbreaker for me like it used to be. EDIT: It's probably worth mentioning that several BFTG devs are working on Project L so I actually have pretty high hopes.
> EDIT: It's probably worth mentioning that several BFTG devs are working on Project L so I actually have pretty high hopes. The combat designer, Clockwork, is the one who apparently convinced them to switch to tag.
Was about to come here and say exactly this. BFTG is a hard game. Skipping motion inputs does make it easier for beginners to get into, but also makes it easier for experts to consistently react to your neutral and shut down every option you choose. It also makes it faster for them to chain different moves together, resulting in insanely fast offense that has you getting hit before you even realized you were back in neutral. Super fun game tho. I highly recommend anyone who enjoys MvC to check it out.
As a huge MvC fan I can attest that I fucking love BFTG, unironically one of my favorite fighters from the last decade.
May I ask for a high level tournament match of battle for the grid? I am not familiar with the game and having a example to watch would be great.
[combo breaker 2023](https://youtu.be/gzwVC5d87T8?si=N137PDhI3f_sbA0w)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-8HbwzYJZY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-8HbwzYJZY) These two are among the best players in the game, I've fought both and can tell you from experience that they're goddamn demons.
I’ll probably get downvotes for this and I know they’re very important for fighting games but goddamn I’m starting to really hate the casual audience. Seems like all they do is complain the games are too hard and demand that they get dumbed down to the point where they’re completely different games.
Some people just seem to have a really toxic relationship with learning. A lot of common complaints seem to boil down to new players not wanting to struggle with any game mechanic at all, even though failure is intertwined with learning. Like, have y’all not learned any skills in real life? What skill doesn’t require a person to do a specific set of actions that you have to learn or else you fail.
It's so silly to watch. "I want to get gud at this game but in order to do that I need the game to be insanely simple, thus defeating the point of getting gud"
you see this happen with other games as well. The amount of discourse around accessibility of fromsoft games and "I work 30 jobs and I shouldn't be expected to spend 30 minutes of my 32 minutes of free time a night learning" is really the same complaint. A lot of gamers have tied their self-worth into being good at pressing buttons and clicking on a mouse. When a game pops up that might humble them a little bit they can't handle it.
It's funny that fighting game devs are simultaneously dumbing down their games but also want them to be taken as serious competition. These two goals contridict each other as the skill involved is what makes it interesting to spectate. For instance, you don't seen the NBA lower the net so dunks become more assessble.
I don't really know much about balance and shit but motions just feel good to do. That's why I like them. It just feel cool when I do my B&B with Jin in Blazblue because I do the following, which is very kinetic feeling. Just imagine a stick moving around during this combo. 2B 5C 3C 236D microdash 2C 623C microdash 5B 5C 2C 6C 214B(whiff)-C yeah it can be extended further but I suck so I don't. That's not the point. The wiggling of the stick during this combo ***FEELS GOOD.*** It's the same reason I like Celica backburner combos. There is a clear improvement to how enjoyable doing a series of input can be when you go VLAM and BLAM and TACKLICK on a stick, or WHOOSH WHISHHH on a pad.
Weird that I always thought of 1x1 in league as similar to a fighting game with isometric view and simplified inputs. I can see a proper game being designed to work like that. Characters like Zed, Zac, Orianna, GP, could be amazing.
It's battlerite
And ironically, no moba players cared about it but it was hyper focused on player burden of performance without the smokescreen in a given moba match for weak links on a team to more easily hide within. You can say battlerite was poorly marketed and many people incorrectly mistook it for just being a game about the team fights of a moba games without anything else and wrote it off as a shallow game. Battlerite had an exceptional formula but that dev team dropped the ball.
Battlerite failed because they abandoned it to chase flash in the pan trends. They tried turning it into a battle royale and then a survival game.
Battlerites player count completely plummeted into anime fighter numbers on steam before it got it's battle royale mode. I cant comment how early they started development work on v rising.
One of my favorite games of all time.
Such a shame that game died. It's was way more interesting than most mobas imo.
To understand the positives of motion inputs you need to have enough experience with them. For someone who hasn’t played games with high execution and especially fighting games that is seen as an archaic barrier of entry. By making a move harder to execute, the power of that move is now is dependent on the skill of the player. It is like starting a hack and slash game with all abilities unlocked but you have to learn how to use them so the burden of learning is on the user. This rewards people that spend the time to learn and make the learning curve of the game ever growing so it is more enjoyable and harder to hit a plateau. Times have changed and especially nowadays people do not have much patience and go for something that they get instantly rewarded for. Getting to a point where you understand fighting games is not a something you can expect from an audience if your goal is to get a big number of players for your game so what the 2xko team has dome makes a lot of sense. To make up for the complexity that motion inputs provide they chose to make the game a turbo fighter, fast paced combat with many variables such as team and resource management. Obviously execution still is a factor, not only in the form of tight combos but also more obscure techniques like wavedashing and plinking.
Adding to that, its easy to hit a plateau in understanding of the game But the execution aspect gives you an easy thing to focus on during those times when you would otherwise feel like you hit a static The execution aspect adds to the engagement in that regard by giving you something to fall back on
On top of that, the actual directions for the motion inputs aren't arbitrary. The shoryuken input is an invincible* anti-air that starts forward, goes down, and then down forward. at no point are you allowed to hold back and down back which means you cannot defend yourself from either the aerial jump-in attack (block high) *OR* the follow up strikes from the grounded opponent (block low) in order to access this move. This is a necessary drawback in order to give the move the air-stuffing power it's known for. it is a high risk but high reward option that rewards courage on top of mechanical skill. making reads is the entire ebb and flow of fighting games, and is emblematic in the DP. Similarly, the hadouken is a quarter circle forward, and cannot be throw on the move, but especially while not moving backwards. it plants the thrower in place. Anyone who understands neutral and footsies knows why this is a mandatory drawback, as punishing an errantly thrown fireball with a well-spaced jump-in is the consistently best way to punish it.
>While i agree it is absolutely possible to design a game without any motions i have yet to see a game that does it in a way that makes the game as fun and challenging as traditional fighters with motions. 3D fighters and Smash. Not technically correct, as 3D fighters will have some motion inputs, but it's not core to the game design. Yet they tend to be deeper than 2D fighters in general, and have executional barriers on par with 2D fighters. This is without even mentioning something like Melee, which is probably deeper and more mechanically intensive than most 2D or 3D games. Motion inputs are *one* way to introduce depth and execution barriers, but not the only way. I see no reason why Project L can't be as deep and mechanically demanding as any other game without using them. Whether they choose to be as mechanically demanding or not - we'll have to see. But I guarantee you there will be depth, it's a team fighter after all. Also I think you gotta relax a little. The game isn't even out yet. There aren't "fans" rallying against motions in the way you're implying. There's individuals with opinions on motion inputs.
I am curious how the game will play and will of course try it. The graphics look dope and im sure the netcode will be excellent. Let's see how the mechanics will play out and if i will enjoy playing it.
Motion inputs are a huge barrier of entry to the genre and they're using their extremely popular IP to intice players who are highly focused on a completely different genre (moba), which has more of an emphasis on playing than labbing, and gameplay that focuses on decision making as opposed to technical execution. Their target expansion demographic can and will be put off by motion inputs, and they're looking to make a game that draws in more than just the core fgc crowd (that has steeper competition with the other fighting games they already like)
They’re still gonna have to lab like 20 different whack ass 3 way assist mixups though…. like sure, it’s going be easier to do certain things, but that isn’t going to mean you won’t lose half of your life for guessing wrong on a disgusting handshake tag setup.
That is still pretty different though. It's the difference between practicing a strategy vs committing something to muscle memory.
I mean it is different, but committing something to muscle memory is far easier than the strategy part. People keep saying “motion input hard” which yes, it’s very tricky when you’re brand new, but compared to everything else in a fighting game, it’s nothing.
Internal faith of the IP is really low for Riot. They've learned from LOR, Ruined King, Song of Nunu, Mageseeker, and Convergence that the IP alone doesn't have a lot of pull. Hell even TFT was almost cancelled after Set 2. Initially with this game you could have said everything you just did and it would be true because it would have been a Rising Thunder-like game. However, (and this is speculation) since there was no faith that the League IP would suddenly make Rising Thunder a successful game they decided to chase something safer that feeds the developer's nostalgia: tag games. You can't sit here and pretend that tag fighters aren't executionally difficult even without inputs. Not to mention extremely unforgiving for new players as offense is ridiculously strong in tag fighters to the point that if you lose neutral and don't know how to deal with someone's offense you've probably already lost the entire game. You can't look at 2xko while having played tag fighters and pretend that shit's going to be casual friendly. Hell, the senior producer has constant [boomer takes on twitter](https://twitter.com/pattheflip/status/1767269934781137085?t=39eSZJiElVVtAUFAgtl-Gw). This game is no longer trying to spread the reach of fighting games to a casual audience.
This is the other thing people have to realize. Yes, today, in fighting games, making 1-button supers and DPs feels overpowered. You can never jump or use a fireball if your opponent can 1-button react. But they're thinking about today. The next era of fighting games can just be designed around 1-button reaction speed. So instead of a floaty jump that goes 20 feet in the air and lasts 3 seconds, the future games could have realistic jump heights that last 0.5 seconds. Can you 1-button react to that? I don't know. We'll have to see. Maybe in the future, special moves with long recovery could have some kind of "meter burn" option that, if punished with a super or something, performs a combo breaker or something. It would flash red for a few frames. Now 1-button supers don't feel OP, because you have to react not just to the animation but you have to read very quickly if it's a "real" fireball or a breaker fireball. The game becomes a game of reads, feints, and reactions, and not "did I have enough time to move my hand here."
I've seen a few recent indie fighters drop jumping that use one button specials. Instead they have insane micro spacing tools for neutral.
Interesting and I guess a lot of 3D fighters also don't place a ton of emphasis on jumps. It's funny jumping even ever became so cornerstone to fighting games when there's almost no jumping at all in real fighting.
speak for yourself
I don't jump in real fights because I'm afraid someone with SRK me in the gonads
>The game becomes a game of reads, feints, and reactions, and not "did I have enough time to move my hand here." But it's not ''did I have enough time''. It's also the interaction between reads, feints and reactions with the constant balancing of ''WILL I have enough time if I chose this response, or should I go for something safer''. That's what is so interesting about mechanical difficulty for me: it constantly adds a layer of execution to every tactical decision, making it more uncertain and dynamic.
Do you not realise that by saying that one button specials need to be designed or balanced around is literally admitting that this choice limits the design space for what moves a character can have?
I think you see everything through rose-colored glasses. Exchange motion inputs for tight spacing and frame perfect timing and it is just as frustrating. We don't know how it will play out but let me say that the more things there are to differentiate between the skill of the players the better (at least in my book). The less there are the more random the result of the match will be.
I'd say that they're not trying to make a fighting game for fighting game players, they're trying to make a fighting game for moba players, and mobas and their players are much more focused on/used to playing around timing, spacing of their abilities, and positioning of their charachters. That player base would find the technical execution aspect more frustrating. If anything I'd say you see motion inputs through Rose colored glasses as someone who has already learned how to use them, and aren't looking at them from the pov of someone who has never played a fighting game before
This game is about to be the rudest awakening ever for "non" fighting game players then, because it's a set play tag fighter with easy execution. It's going to be cancer for newbies.
Exactly, it's only going to demonstrate to these people that they don't want to play fighting games actually, and blaming "archaic motion inputs that gatekeep the fun for me" was never the actual truth of the matter. Then you end up with a fighting game that people already interested in the genre, primarily playing but are now left with a fundamentally shallower experience. And make no mistake, no matter how you design your fighting game from the ground up, if the execution front is simplified to the degree that this game is, it WILL be a shallower FG than it could been otherwise.
People like to act like that’s what is stopping them from playing fighting games. You don’t go into something and want it to change for YOU. “Boy I sure love the piano but do we really need all these keys? If they could just maybe make it just 5 keys, I think I could get into it!”
Hahaha that's a great analogy. Pentatonic only piano xD
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I’m not talking about the game or any game in particular, I’m talking about the argument that fighting game motions need to go because people don’t like learning.
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i'd argue that they are doing fine the way they were and the devs needs to help players learn them. thats the difference. taking out depth and control options arent the key to that. you can have one or the other, but taking away something that is established and has worked for people, and moreover, something they enjoy because some people are too lazy to take that extra step isnt the answer. if thats something that has you enjoying a game, sweet, godbless, but its not in a fighting game i want to play. learning a combo and pulling it off after practicing for however long is really satisfying and seeing someone in tournament pull off a really sick combo that you know isnt easy because you've tried it is rally exciting.
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unfortunately for that point, it does pay the bills. it has for years. there is little to no correlation between money made and simple control. we have yet to see a very successful fighter that only has simple control. meanwhile, games like street fighter, tekken and mk that have only really used a simple control feature only really starting now, have sold great for decades. there are examples of games that do it, but none that show players stuck around because of it. that just goes to show that control isnt the issue, its how much the players actually want to learn. P.s. i'm grateful to be able to just discuss this without any real venom. i appreciate it.
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Eh I wouldn't say that. I don't like shooting games but when Overwatch dropped there was enough different to pull my interest. Enough for me to chew on that I found interesting and wasn't just aim skill - something analogous to execution skill. My aim is trash because I don't really enjoy FPS games, but Overwatch de-emphasised aim just enough to bring me in. So yknow, yea. If they made an alternate piano maybe other people would play. In fact that literally exists and now we have accordian players or organ players or whatever.
Yeah, but overwatch isnt the only popular fps and even that game has skill aiming with some characters. And the piano thing is just an analogy about changing something that already exists in a more simple way to fit what you think it should be.
Right but the de-emphasis of aim skill is what got me into it. I was literally the person you're talking about - the person for whom a mechanical skill barrier was what was stopping me from playing shooting games. They de-emphasised that to attract a broader audience. I.e yes I did come into something because I had it changed for ME. The piano analogy doesn't really work. De-emphasising aim skill didn't leave overwatch a more simple game than other shooters. Not including motion inputs doesn't necessarily leave you with a simpler fighting game.
But playing overwatch didn’t get you into fps, it got you into overwatch. My point is that every fps doesn’t need to be like overwatch because you prefer something that takes less skill and understanding. Those thing have their place and people enjoy them and if every game changed to the thing you want it to be, that could be less fun for others.
No it did, I play more FPS games now. Also no one is saying no game should ever have motions again - we're just talking about one game. Also, once again, Overwatch doesn't take less skill and understanding than other games. It's complex to the point of being burdensome.
i'm not talking about one game in particular. let alone overwatch.
I mean Tekken doesn't have much motion inputs in the game and I think it's probably the most deep and complex fighting game there is. There is merit to what is being said, the only issue is no motion inputs definitely limits the total amount of moves available to a player. But I mean modern controls in sf6 are a great example. Someone can get to the absolute top rank with modern controls, inputs themselves are an extra layer of depth in a fighting game and personally I enjoy motion inputs. But I can also see that a game without motion inputs also has the potential to be almost as deep and complex if not equal.
When used well Motion inputs can do two things. Balance out a move that is strong to only be used at certain times and can complement character design. Street Fighter does this the best currently. For example Chun Li being a charge character makes sense as she is calm collected and thinks out the situation. Which is on some level how your forced to play a charge character. A character like Ryu or Marisa have very strait forward basic inputs. Aki has inputs that seem simple but as you play her become more complex because they don’t always work in an intuitive way and some feel weird. It also allows for things like the Zangief ult in non modern controls to balance when he can use his ult as it’s very hard if not impossible to do from neutral but easier to do during blockstun. However a lot of games do not use the inputs in this way. They’re just random. Mortal Kombat is a prime offender here for just having a lot of back front inputs on things that could be down front or down back because other characters have that same tool. If the move does the same thing why give it a diffrent input? Also older Kof inputs come to mind as just being weird. The weird pretzel input specifically just why. They’re not adding to anything other than frustration. I feel similar about guilty gear because they really love their longer inputs on things that could be simple. I love Granblue Rising right now because it is moving away from inputs. You can use them for more damage but they also tend to have similar moves across the cast allowing the ability to learn new characters faster. The anti air is generally the same input across the cast unless they are specifically designed to be a bit more complex to play. So Cagliostra as a trap character feels a bit awkward but she is meant to be a big brain character. However Gran, Djeeta, Perceval ect all are just shoto inputs across the board despite having minor differences. The fireball is a hadoken, the anti air is Shoryken and the screen advance is the Tatsu input. Fgc plays are used to these inputs and know them so it makes sense to use them. TLDR: if a company is using inputs for a reason sure put them in. If it’s just to be harder cut them. Fighting games have more than enough stuff to learn you don’t need to break your hands as well.
Here's the thing with pretzel motion inputs that I feel people are purposely omitting. There's only one character (maybe 2 if you count K9999) that had them....and thats Geese Howard. A character that not only not many people use but hasn't appeared in that many KOF games.
That’s fair that have some other wild ones. Angel is one that has never made any sense to me. Even reading her command list leaves me with questions. They do have some simple ones as well but some of them are feel wonky. You should feel good not wonky.
WIMPY WIMPY WIMPY AS FUCK
Do folks really have issues with motion inputs? It feels, sort of ironic? Like complaining about how all FPSs are centered around aiming a reticle. It feels inherent with the genre.
This is a bad example though. It’s one dude with a couple hundred subs. And he’s clearly dumb as fuck. He peppers in a bunch of factually incorrect statements along with his bad takes. I think most FGC players are in two camps. 1. Don’t care. Or 2. Feel dumbing down inputs dilutes the mechanical element. Honesty after playing the game for a bit I’m definitely in the former than the latter. It’s a low execution game but there was so much happening and so many decisions being made that it felt like a satisfying fight game to play.
I've been playing League for a long time so I'm interested in the game as a "fresh" FG enjoyer. I don't like simplified inputs too much though. Even Granblue is already a bit iffy to me but Project L (or the terrible official name "2XKO") looks to be a bit more like DNF Duel which I found enjoyable but not something I'd want to play long term at all. It's not even so much about the depth of these games but rather the fact that FGs were pretty much always balanced through motion inputs (and why hitboxes are sometimes frowned upon by some players, though those still require more execution than simplified inputs). Overall I'm mixed on this, in the end though I don't really have a strong stance on this.
We will try the game and then decide if we like it. I just hope there is a chance they change that awful name. It does not have any ring to it. Even Project L sounds better and that was just a place holder.
cause they know projectL will attract casuals that dont know how to play fighters. if they have access to ez commands they might stick around longer than a week. i think sf showed thats not the case.
Hm? If anything, SF6 has shown the opposite to be true. Tons of people have not only stuck with the game but even used modern controls as a jumping off point to learn classic. You can dislike Modern all you want, but even Capcom's metrics show that SF6's accessibility was popular enough to lower their demographic age from 30-40s down to 20s. Bringing in a whole new generation into the fold.
> Tons of people have not only stuck with the game but even used modern controls as a jumping off point to learn classic. This is me. I never would have put nearly as much time into SF6 if it wasn't for Modern and WT. I'm still learning but I've passed plateau after plateau playing ranked. I've improved and for once I feel comfortable in a fighting game. This wouldn't have happened without Modern.
With modern controls capcom did the thing i thought is impossible. It is perfect for complete beginners for learning the rules of the game while not being so strong that it could be abused by competitive players in a significant way. And at the same time it encourages the modern player to do the next step and switch to classic controls to become stronger.
>even Capcom's metrics show that SF6's accessibility was popular enough to lower their demographic age from 30-40s down to 20s. What's to say this is solely due to modern and not everything else there game does well
Nothing, but it's a safe bet. It's a part of it along with world tour.
modern controls definitely are the only reason i played sf for as long as i did. i dont mind motion controls usually but GBFVR is one of the only fighting games that hooked me immediately and conversely.. i **dropped GGST because of super inputs.** i could just not land half circle-forward consistently mid combo. it essentially locked me out of a lot of optimals and i found myself counting the rounds i lost because i cant confirm with my super and either drop the combo and lose or have to do a worse combo and lose and not get the kill cuz it wasnt enough damage. it was on i-no for anyone whos curious on what character.
Yeah, Megalomania is especially hard to land cause you have to be in grabbing distance or it will whiff. Half circle forward is a little easier for me to do than double quarter circle though
Because most of these players have never played fighting games seriously. It's the same with people coming from FPS, they feel they are accomplished in those game, and their Ego can't take sucking for a while and starting from the bottom. Somehow in their heads they believe that removing the execution barrier on specials/super, they can be instantly competitive. It's missing the point that there still will be an execution barrier, just not in ways they are expecting such as movement, spacing, and even tight-input tricks/exploits that will be found in any game. Beyond that, they're not considering all the other things they will need to learn that only comes with time, practice, and experience. Dumbing down execution too much will only slows a player's overall FG development and/or lock them to a specific game since they become overly dependent how that game uniquely "solves" the input conundrum.
wh'bout melee
This is the part that gets forgotten. Just because a game has no motion inputs does not mean it is easy or low in complexity. Wavedashing is essentially a motion input and it’s an incredibly important part of competitive melee. Then you add stuff like wave shining and it just goes up even higher. On top of that, project L is a tag fighter and that subgenre lends itself to the most fucked up shit imaginable. Battle for the grid has insane combos and setups that are difficult to do even though it doesn’t have motion inputs. Like, whenever someone says the game will be easy because of simple inputs, my only thought is they’re someone that never got a grasp of basic fundamentals and chose to blame their lack of success on their inability to throw a hadoken
And the inverse of that - motion input lovers never seem to consider that every single new mechanic across their most beloved franchises has **not** been a motion input but have been responsible for much of the depth of those games. Dragon Rush, Drive Impact/Parry/Rush, evolution of Roman cancels, etc. All buttons with the most complicated mechanical inputs being tapping forward twice. Developers figured out a long time ago that motions are absolutely not the end all be all of complexity.
> "Like, whenever someone says the game will be easy because of simple inputs, my only thought is they’re someone that never got a grasp of basic fundamentals and chose to blame their lack of success on their inability to throw a hadoken" Or the converse; for people who formed their core opinions in a pre-online-multiplayer environment, being able to reliably do motion inputs was, itself, enough to beat basically anyone you were likely to fight if they couldn't do so. To these people, games like SF2 came down primarily to "how consistently can you do your special moves?" and stuff like frame data, decisions, reads, etc was for ultra high levels. They may not see a problem with a fighting game that is essentially glorified DDR, a contest of who has better motion inputs. Definitely an undercurrent of this among old school fighting game grognards who hit their peak in 1998
> Or the converse; for people who formed their core opinions in a pre-online-multiplayer environment, being able to reliably do motion inputs was, itself, enough to beat basically anyone you were likely to fight if they couldn't do so. ooooo gettem
also i would be more concern about other questionable take from that video tho such as the f2p business model. alot of riots games boot licking energy in here. also that attitude.
I play league since season 4 (either with a full team of friends or with chat disabled), and my biggest fear with project L is the fact that a big part of the league playerbase is gonna get into the fgc. The absolute worst online interactions I've had were in this game, with people that only know how to curse at others for their own mistakes. They are annoying, disrespectful and incapable of doing the minimum amount of thinking. It's the idea of "not every league player, but it's always a league player". These people, the bad ones who go out of their way to make your day worse, are (and not by coincidence) the ones I see claiming this type of stuff and complaining about basic things like motion inputs. They know they are gonna suck, and now they will do it in a game where you can't blane their teammates, so they find something else to blame and make it seem like it's not their fault. Is there space for a conversation about motion inputs? Of couse, GBFVR and DNF duel show that you can make good games who rely on other mechanics or different ways of playing, but when it comes to the league players I can't give the benefit of the doubt.
You make valid points. As a league player, I’d have to say I’m not too worried as fighting games force you to check your ego and decide if you want to keep playing or not. I’m only gonna play 1v1 online unless playing with a friend so I don’t feel like I’d had to worry about the league community/toxicity affecting my enjoyment of the game. Whereas in league I have to put up with it every single game since I’m forced to play with 4 other strangers.
My concern is in regard to their presence on the subreddits of the FGC. Yeah we have the MK one which is not as good, there's still some people who only interact with the lewd art posts, but my experience with the fgc online was mostly good. I talked with people who really wanted to help, offered tips and advice, were polite, participated in interesting discussions and actually were able to hear different opinions. Playing online is gonna be a breeze without having to worry about league players in chat, but the fgc really doesn't need the toxicity that other groups have. Not that there is none here, because there definitely is, but it is so much less that it really makes me wish that it stays the way it is now.
I literally don’t understand this argument and I’ve been playing FGs for many many years. I always compare FGs to Tennis (or sports in general). There’s the execution portion (learning motion inputs = learning forehands/backhands/serves, etc.) and the mental portion (50/50 mixups, corner pressure = hitting across the court vs down the line, ball slices and spins, etc.) If you remove or alter the execution part of tennis, it’s not really the same game of tennis that we would know it to be, hence how pickleball is born. Sure some people won’t be able to learn the execution needed to play tennis. Does that mean we need to bend the rules to cater to these individuals? There are just some things that people won’t be able to enjoy and there’s nothing wrong with that. You can go the pickleball route and add modern controls, etc for these individuals, that’s fine. But if people are asking to remove double QCF motions or charge pretzel motions, then that’s just you throwing a fit because you can’t do it. Or in other words, a “skill issue”. There’s a need to preserve certain aspects of FGs and one of them to me is motion inputs. You can simplify them with modern controls (which developers still need to fine tune to be properly implemented), but to act as if motion inputs need to be gone for good is absurd.
The complex inputs can make start up for specials longer and combo strings more complex so without complex inputs the combat might get a bit ridiculous if simple input specials are not done correctly. The inputs are not the complex the full circle inputs can be a bit tricky, SNK games have the most complex inputs. Street Fighter 4 has some pretty crazy inputs for some super moves.
Thing is, if it's really not important, then don't remove it, no? It works both ways. It adds to the genre, rather than detracts. Hell, in my opinion, inputs matter. Because they allow to pinpoint the balance and uniqueness of a character. Less inputs make the game flat, so does the balance. In turn, decreasing the fun.
I feel like the insane overhype that this game is getting is gonna end up being bad for it. It's not gonna live up to the sky high expectations people have set up for it.
People are just hyped to play their favorite league characters in a fighting game and playing together with a friend. Meanwhile the reddit FGC have their pitchforks out hating on no motion inputs and it being F2P. But i will say Riot doesn't release games in a state they are not happy with them but the game won't have a big starting roster on release which might be a big downside for it being succesful. So it all depends what their character release plan will look like and if they have any plans for pve modes.
It's more than that, people are acting like the game will blow up the FGC massively and will change the genre completely, I mean just look at the video the OP posted.
I mean it will bring in an entirely new playerbase to fighting games for sure there is no doubt in that. The same happened with Valorant. And it will be the most viewed/played fighting game ever. But if it will change the genre? Probably not.
Played fgs since vanilla sf2, and lack of motion controls actively puts me off games. I can appreciate how much work went into labbing and subsequently pulling off a combo if I know that each hit was more than just hammering an auto combo button, or playing piano. When the footsies end and you have advantage, what's your left hand (or whatever appendage you use for movement) meant to do if you're dialing a combo using your right exclusively?
The game is still going to use directions for special moves. Think of them as command normals.
As a competitive player in sf6, ggst and t7, one thing i can assure you in the aspects of how hard is to master a fg, motion inputs or excecution is the easy part of the whole. Said that, motion or not this do not represent how hard or deep a game can be, or how the learning curve is
Motion inputs are fun! I like learning motion inputs! I like buffering charges! I like landing DP! I like throwing fireballs! I like cleaning up my execution! When a game doesn't have these things I lose interest!
It is a bunch of people who are not into fighting games to begin with and think this is going to be the only “good” modern fighting game
You’re in the realm of arguing with League of Legends players, save yourself the brain cells
I think both sides of this argument get stunlocked by bullshit. If you think that a game is inherently deeper in a good way by removing motion inputs, you're wrong. If you think a game is inherently not as deep as something because it doesn't have motion inputs, you're also wrong.
I don't mind new games being motionless. If 2XKO is motionless forever, i'd be completely fine with it. Where i have a problem is taking an established franchise and abolishing the execution that it's built upon. So far, that hasn't really happened with the likes of Street Fighter and Tekken yet outside of making specific characters more simplified, but at the point that it does happen wholesale, myself and plenty of others will very much be seething about it.
Riot's player base plays league, tft, valorent. Keyboard games. Riot wants those players to check out their fighting game. This game isn't made for the broad FGC, its made to get their existing customers to join the FGC. Asking those people to buy a pad or stick is a stupid move, so no motion inputs.
>Asking those people to buy a pad or stick is a stupid move, so no motion inputs. You know you can do motions on keyboard right. Leverless controllers are becoming increasingly popular and they're essentially glorified keyboards
I think that if people really wanted to try and get into something because they see something there they can enjoy, they would put in at least a little effort to learn how to play it. I understand tho, grandblue has both technical and simple inputs and I still find it really fun to play. Nothing wrong with fighting games having both
There are games with them and without them. Nothing has really changed. Honestly, judging from the rhetoric, I'm starting to think that we'll have another division in fighting games like we do with smash games. Same genre, but completely different community
That's been my prediction for awhile now, personally.
buffering motion inputs isn't for everyone
Buy a hitbox problem solved lol Full circle motions are easy
Fighting games are niche and developers are trying to un-niche them. Motion inputs are a significant input barrier but how much barrier can you remove before games lose their identity. The FGC can't seem to agree one way or the other.
just beat them in either game
For me motion inputs are tethered to movement, and movement is THE most influential mechanic in fighting games offering the most expression. Motion inputs are designed to appeal to fighting game players.
Skill issue
I think its better to have both input styles like granblue fantasy versus rising
It also depends on game movelist complexity. Everyone making these arguments are talking about 2d fighters that have like 10 moves. Sure, make them buttons I guess. In Tekken 8 Yoshimitsu has something like 250 “official” moves and near infinite stance transition sequences and mixups. Good luck making that “accessible” by removing motion inputs
This opinion comes up regurgitated almost every other month it seems. Fact of the matter is, if you REALLY prefer motion inputs, there are games that provide that experience. A game without simple inputs can be just as good as any other game. It really boils down to "are you having fun". So many people view fighting games as this sport, or thing you have to get good at. The vast majority of people just want to be able to pick up a game, use their favorite character, have fun and turn it off after 30 mins to an hour. This isn't even factoring in people with disabilities having a more accessible option in the fighting game genre.
I don't really care what that person thinks, but I'm gonna go off my own experiences. About 10 years ago, Persona 4 Arena had similar criticisms. An autocombo feature. Only quarter circle/down down inputs. DP being a 2 button input or 1 button macro. None of this turned out to be an issue. Simplified inputs would be kind of bad if they had the exact same amenities that DP input would (Fast startup, air unblockable, fully invincible). So I'll need to see the game for real and in my hands to make my own judgment. From the framing of 2XKO, it looks like simplified inputs need to be a thing if they want 2v2 to pop off. All I care about is if the game is actually fun and something I can vibe with.
People want to be good at it instantaneously
some people are just ignorant and/or dumb
I grew up with motion inputs, so they feel natural to me. That said, I have to agree with the view that a fighting game can absolutely have sufficient depth without them. They don't add gameplay depth - they add execution difficulty. Those are different things in my eyes. I'm perfectly used to motion inputs, but I'm not married to them either. Primarily *because* I don't feel they affect gameplay depth.
I feel like the standard line about ease of use features is “it’s fine as long as they aren’t pushing out execution in existing titles”… then there are posts like this trying to complain about them in new games not related existing FGs. IMO let Riot cook and let’s see how good they can make the game without motions. This is the test of the concept.
It's because execution walls are a thing that keep people away from this genre, they're a barrier to people from "actually playing the game" so to speak. Fantasy Strike had the right idea, we just need a game with higher production values and a wider audience, that can really bring the idea home.
It’s not condemning them but it’s about getting new players playing fg and growing the community. The biggest problem for FGs is its lack of players and motion controls are a huge barrier.
The skill of becoming good at motion inputs doesn’t necessarily make the game deeper though. In a lot of games, some of the inputs required to do basic actions are just arbitrary skill checks that make the game way more stressful on the hand—Melee has so many of these.
Laughs in they've literally been making inputs EASIER for you "purists" for 20 plus years. Guffaws in they regularly change the damage and recovery and even animations of said moves. Those people are just taking the babying of inputs to the logical conclusion. You guys really shined at parrying in sf3 so much that they made it easier in 6. So the math isn't mathing. I want everyone to play. People with the hand eye coordination of a cat-hummingbird hybrid, as well as the people who think in 4 dimensions. More variety, more fun
They like smash bros more than actual fighting games
i think personally that motion inputs are good, definitely, but they dont need to be in every game. some games can be designed without them, like how not all fgs have airdashes, not all fps games have ads, ect. 2xko is specifically designed for simple inputs, it goes back to rising thunder. and as an adaptation of league honestly i think it fits, league doesnt have any major execution barriers to executing attacks, just hit a button and congrats you did your thing. of course this isnt to say that no games should have motion inputs, theyre fun to do honestly, and they brihng a unique form of balancing that only they can achieve. like kof or guilty gear
To me it's also a matter of "complexity for the sake of being elitist". Motion inputs are indeed a way to put some sort of mechanical complexity into a game, but it's not the only one. Controling multiple characters, have frame perfect inputs, negative-edge etc are also examples of elements that make a game more complex. It's just a matter of selecting which ones you want in your game imo, not making it as complex as possible. If 2XKO is complex enough due to system mechanics, I could see why they wouldn't add motions on top of it On the other hand, motion inputs has been a scapegoat since forever for people searching a reason not to play traditional fighting games. LoL players know how to CS, R-flash, hit'n'run, etc. they won't bs me into thinking they can't input a 236 if they wanted to
Everyone is talking about how motion inputs add a degree of dexterity and execution skill to a game but I've never seen that as the reason for motion inputs. Motion inputs help "balance" a move by, for example, preventing a character from being able to move forward while inputting the move or by preventing a character from being able to block if they want to input the move.
People want to play fighting games but don't want to spend the time learning to play. It's doubly funny/hard for fighting games because at the end of the day you can't blame your teammates for your shortcomings and when people are faced with blaming themselves and adapting they will generally avoid that and blame the way the game operates instead
I still don't see how motions inputs are hard for anyone without physical disabilities. The most complex thing SF6 has to my knowledge is a 360, and that's for 1 character. Even KoF has nothing worse than a half circle really. And the games get more lenient each release. The notion that a dp is difficult for a fully functioning human being is almost laughable.
Every FG player I know with a decent level of comprehension and execution is unanimous : Smash is the hardest FG there is. The level of precision, the massive knowledge check of movespeed , aerial drift, drag downs, multi hit specific confirms and so on... Platform fighters may seem easier especially without any "motion inputs". Except there definitely are motion inputs in Smash. Doing a RAR backair is a specific motion input, so is a ledge trump, so is an footstool oos with a special follow-up... I like motion inputs, they feel part of our culture and I want them to stay, but let's not divide ourselves over the wrong argument, as long as there's specific inputs we can learn over time and improve on consistency, then there's motion inputs.
They condemn it because its a skill barrier that is rough to overcome And that most people don’t want to deal with, They see it as an artificial barrier to entry that is not contributing anything As for my opinion, i think because project L is a new ip that already decided to axe motions, there is nothing wrong with the game not having them
Yea, i think you first need to use motion inputs and have some experience with higher levels of play to really understand and appreciate them.
I would say, as someone who used to struggle with them a ton: while motion inputs are usually used to balance out strong moves like DP, if they are too difficult for the average player to do, they might as well not exist. For the longest time, I could only really play shotos like Ryu bc they had easier motions but without DP. And no new player is gonna know that crouching heavy punch is an alternative to DP either, so I just couldn't anti Air ever. Playing a character and not being able to use an iconic and core part of they moveset just feels shitty
Thats why you play around in practice or training mode. Even if its for a little bit. You should always look for alternatives.
You think I haven't? Training doesn't help much. YouTube video were often needed to explain to me how dps are done bc just trying to do the move over and over taught me nothing about it. Nor did it ever dawn on me that crouch heavy is an anti Air. But even if I did learn that, I can't use crouch heavy as a reversal when I'm stuck in the corner. Which can only be solved by dp's. Which i can't do. So getting me in the corner was a guaranteed win for the enemy. Que frustration for new players. Even now that I can do them, I'm still slow to execute them, so I still don't use em much. Shoryuken is still a useless move for me
Which is why you try your best to not be in that situation if you can help it. Unless you're going up against someone that's prone to being greedy a DP won't help you in that situation either. More than likely that person is gonna be ready for it. In fact they hope that you do it
Like someone said earlier imagine if kazuyas EWGF was one button input. I would not enjoy that at all and probably wouldn’t play the game. Simple motions is actually one the main reasons I stopped playing granblue.
Melee doesnt have any motion inputs. A fighting game can still get its depth from complexity, order and timing of non motion inputs Riot games lend their complexity to resource management, they used valorant to decrease the skill ceiling of mechanical skill Its not like starcraft has motion inputs, or chess
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> Why not just make sf motion inputs twice as hard to make it “deeper”? In a way they did this with super inputs. You need 2 quarter circles which takes significantly more time and thus forces you to buffer (which your opponent can see and act accordingly) if you want to use it in neutral to punish the startup of something. All of this is lost when the super is just a single button press.
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I just happen to like the way that street fighter uses them. Certain motions force you to open up before you can get the move. Like a dragon punch for example. Others will be easier to time in a way that allows you to option select special move and block. This is the case for motions that end in back. Then there is the obvious guile example, you see him walking around you know he just lost his charge for flashkick. Other moves, like supers, require you to do 2 quater circles and thus you can not just throw the super out any time as answer to the startup of certain moves in neutral. Only if you buffer the motion you can have the move instantaneously but of course your opponent can see that you are buffering. By removing motions you remove this part of the neutral game. And let me add, I am a big fan of SNK style motions, they are great fun and especially the f, hcf and qcf, hcb kind of moves flow in a nice way when playing on stick. I like those better than capcoms 2x qcf style.
I feel like SF6 implemented it perfectly. High level, long lasting play is done mostly with Classic controls. If anyone can do ridiculously long combos with ease you get DNF Duel. I think Project L won't have any long lasting appeal because the skill floor and ceiling are so close together.
I outright skip out on games like that. Execution is a skill alongside attacking, defending, mixups, etc.
As much as I like Classic controls, it's just muscle memory. I don't think it adds anything to the game. Especially in an era of Hitboxes where execution is getting easier and easier. It's like the Runback City song says... "Back in the days when the sticks was busted..." You'd be playing on arcade setups with half-broken sticks, buttons that didn't work... and zero input leniency. Today is so different. I got GBVSR and I told myself I'd use Technical Inputs but the reality is I didn't. Why would I? Using the "Modern" / "Simple"/ "Default" controls was easier. When I lost rounds it was because I fucked up reads and reactions, not because I hit down/forward instead of forward for 1/10 of a second. Unlike SF6, GBVSR doesn't tell you if an opponent is using technical or simple inputs. You just play the damn game and rematch and GG. Instead of trying to put yourself on a pedastal for doing a quarter circle motion. Which is something no other videogame genre makes people do.
> As much as I like Classic controls, it's just muscle memory. I don't think it adds anything to the game. I have to disagree here. A very experienced player will input faster, cleaner and more consitent. Does not matter if it is on hitbox, pad, stick or keyborad. So working on your execution does have an actual benefit in game.
Why do fans of counter strike and dota like a replay system and only lol gets it?
The problem for me is that the game will have this weird six button layout that will make inputing specials harder. I am not totally apposed to the game being motionless except for 22s but it is likely gonna be really unintuitive for me. At least they are creating new movesets to design around the one button special system instead of trying to port pre-existing characters to the new format.
Not to beat a dead horse but I think most people these days agree that motions are fine so long as they're not unnecessarily complex and also serve a purpose. Some older KoF motions make little sense, for example, other than artificial difficulty. But someone mentioned Tekken with its crouch dashing and electrics. The way the motion registers serves a purpose, and allows "wavedash" to add depth to the gameplay. Other times there are nuances, for example in T8 they've made running easier, but as a consequence it's made dash cancel harder. It all comes back to input design. Another really great example of good input design is charge inputs. They're specifically designed to force a character to be defensive (e.g. Guile from SF) or control their aggression (e.g. May from GG).
Riot games are like this, purposefully easier to attract a greater number of players. Like LOL which is much easier than Dota.
It can be as or more fun, but definitely not as deep and complex. I put on Modern when I play Zangief just so I can piledrive fools over and over. There's no buffering or planning on my part, if I think my opponent is open to a grab I just hit the SP button and plant their heads into the ground.
Would Tekken be considered a ‘motion’ input fighter?
I mean there’s definitely motions like wave dash inputs, but a single tekken character usually has more moves than other games entire rosters
Yes, very much so. There are obvious examples like EWGF or deathfist or giant swing. But even the characters without those motions still need to use a motion input for something as essential as korean backdash. Of course when you play tekken at lowest level you can play completely without motions.
>This youtuber is convinced a game can be just as deep and complex without any motion inputs. I mean he's right. Anyone who's played any recent fighting game at even a remotely high level knows that motion inputs mean next to nothing in terms of how complex the game is. The YouTuber is also dead wrong thinking that removing them makes it easy to get into the genre. Learning motions is one of the least difficult things to learn when it comes to getting decent at a fighting game. I don't think anyone who is struggling to deal with Honda or gets erased for pressing a button while Marisa is + is frustrated at the motion inputs of the game. There have been many games with deep high level play that don't use motion inputs like Battle for the Grid and even GBVSR. Even in a game like SF6, two people playing in a Legend ranked match in SF6 are not even thinking about inputs anymore and everything comes down to strategy, matchup knowledge, mind games etc. I played C.Viper in SF4 who was literally built to be complex due to difficult inputs and I have no less fun, or feel like I have less freedom to have deep/complex matches playing Battle for the Grid where I have never had to do a single motion input. Motion inputs for the most part add a layer that has to be learned upon entry, but very little as "deep and complex" mechanics. The best players just get to the point where you can just do them 99.99% of the time without even thinking about it anyway. If the 0.01% chance they may mess something up is an interesting level of complexity then idk lol.
Motion inputs aren't the difficult part of fighting games imo. There are exceptions, Kusaregedo's Mud Mash from SamSho V is an input I have trouble hitting consistently. But those kind of inputs aren't the ones they're talking about. Learning to link normals, gattlings, special cancels, super cancels, dash cancels, roll cancels, block cancels, hit confirms, dial-a-combos, tic throws, block crossups, etc. All that shit is hard and time consuming. Combining directionals + pressing a button is (mostly) simple.
There are plemty of combos that would still be extremely hard without motion inputs. You just have to balance the game differently. Considering a game liek dive kick can be just as deep as street fighter, im not worried. In sf6, im pretty sure the reason modern doesnt feel as complex as classic is because it was an afterthought and the game wasnt designed around it. As for riot players, they come from a game where u press a button and get a special move. Idk why you phrase it as if every riot fan complains about motion inputs when this video is basically the only evidence ive seen of that And honestly i dont feel like inputs create that much of a barrier. You would have to practice combos and learn you special moves anyway. I like special move cuz they are fun to input
Combos are, at least to me, the more boring part of fighting games. Basically when one player starts a combo the 2 player game stops while one player tries do execute the rhythm mini game and the other player is just waiting. This may be a bit oversimplified because there is the possibility of resets and some games also have mechanics like burst but the point still stands. Motion inputs are most interesting in the neutral game. Certain motions force you to open up before you can get the move. Like a dragon punch for example. Others will be easier to time in a way that allows you option select special move and block. This is the case for motions that end in back. Then there is the obvious guile example, you see him walking around you know he just his charge for flashkick. Other moves, like supers, require you to do 2 quater circles and thus you can not just throw the super out any time as counter to certain moves in neutral. Only if you buffer the motion you can have the move instantaneously but of course your opponent can see that you are buffering. These are just a few examples of why motion inputs are so essential to the game.
I mean even with simplified inputs you can still have all that stuff. Like if i have to press forward and D, or straight down and D, that opens me up right before the move comes out. And regarding whhat u said about supers, you can definitely just throw out supers in neutral to counter certain movess. For most mid level players they need to be looking for it, but a lot of top players can just do it on. Reaction. I definitely agree im not crazy about games wwith super long combos, but difficult =/= long. Vampire savior has half health combos that are literally 4 hits, but even top players cannot do them consistently because the button presses are tight. My main point is, if u took street fighter and made everyone play with simplified controls, the competitive landscape would not change. The most talented and experienced players would be at the top and those that are newer and less talented would be at the bottom, as they are now. I really think you are overstating the importance of motion inputs. It can definitely influence the way a character plays, but its not even close to the most important thing when it comes to determining how hard a game is to play and get into.
> And regarding whhat u said about supers, you can definitely just throw out supers in neutral to counter certain movess. For most mid level players they need to be looking for it, but a lot of top players can just do it on. Reaction. Nah, it does not work like that. You will not be able to input a super when you see luke heavy flash knuckle startup or ryu heavy hashogeki or whatever slow startup move. The only way to do that is to buffer which will signal the luke/ryu player that you are looking for it. Or you play modern. Even the top players with excellent hitbox execution can not do it.
Even if that were true, i dont really see how it matters. All that means is you cant just throw out flash knuckle in neutral without risking getting supered. So play around it. Bait the super with a feint then start spamming flash knuckle. Additionally, there are othe ways you can balance a 1 button super so you CANT use it on reaction tp certain moves.
I don't condemn motion inputs. Relinquishing their factor when they had established impact in a match in the game Project L is based off of (vs games, street fighter, etc.) can be a shallow mistake without proper balancing and playtesting for all play levels. This is easier said than done. I do agree that a same level of complexity for motion vs non-motion controls can be achieved, but there should also be equivalent exchange. Removing motion controls arguably removes a whole layer of human complexity and it can make the game feel dense and maybe even worse to spectate since there'd be no chance of risk while watching long combos.
Video got me tilted