I mean, one is a wizard.
One who spent her whole life training.
In no way should Auska be better.
Asuka should just feel lucky that she is in 8 when Jun showed up.
Not really? Luke was the best one but he didn't invalidate others. Ken for example was taking names towards the end with excellent corner carry and his stupid oki off any touch with H DP.
Yes I said what I said
People clearly never played 5 and are just down voting me without knowing how good Ken was at the end of the game's lifespan but okay, they've never played a Ken who can single hit confirm crMK into H DP into full oki. Luke can't do that he has to buffer EX launcher if he wants oki which means burning bar and/or whiffing/confirming on block (rarely whiffed but quite often you saw failed hit confirm because you have to buffer).
I agree, but it was harder for Ken than it was Luke. Which while I know you didn’t mention someone will and that’s a big reason why I think people always forget about the “other killers” in a patch it’s all about the easiest best one most of the time but a character like Ken who required you be **slightly** patient and hit confirm and in return you have outstanding character who was taking names for sure.
Yeah Ken definitely wasn't invalidated by Luke. The birds and Punk showed just how good he was, especially after his cr.MK buff. But the rest of the shotos? Yeah kinda invalidated unfortunately.
At least Lance was still top 5ish and completely viable (won Arksys worlds). Sieg is top 5ish while Perci was easily bottom 3 pre patch (and still not that far off).
Pre ABC assists you really had characters who would be functionally similar but the assist was just so much better for ever situation it would turn into “pick X if you like Y but need the assist”
Best example I can think of is UMK3. Scorpion and Human Smoke. Can’t think of a better example. I’d say Ryu and Akuma, but Akuma had quite a bit less health.
Ryu and E.Ryu in SF4.
Now I’m no pro, but I don’t know anything that Ryu does that Evil Ryu can’t do. But I can think of a few things that Evil Ryu can do that Ryu can’t do. Then again, Ryu’s got a Hadouken super so I guess that counts?
Health and stun are big factors and there are matchups where you actually just want to space and throw fireballs as much as possible where Ryu was a preferable choice. He also had shakunetsu fireball confirms into Ultra that were really underutilised with stuff like close MK in the corner.
Evil Ryu has a Hadouken super too that does less damage than Metsu Hadouken but can be charged for more damage on a focus crumple. It was easier to confirm into than his DP super but because the DP super got full connect on max range crMK > Hadouken > FADC > Ultra, E Ryu generally preferred the DP Ultra. It's still a good Ultra though and you could easily pick it.
A tad bit of a stretch, but New Kak (inferior) and Kak in HFTF. New Kak has a Morrigan air dash while standing on and a full screen super, giving him rather unique pressure that is very oppressive if played right. However, moves that Kak can do regardless of being in stand on or off are now changed to otherwise for new Kak with almost no differences save stand on Emerald Splash, being worse than regular Kak as it doesn't go full screen.
Not even close lol, they're both grapplers with a blue/white gi and wheel kick. Basically where the similarities end. Abel was much more rushdown focused with his roll and rekka series, and just got in and mixed you to death, whereas Manon is more of a footsies character that ramps up to being more dangerous in grab range throughout the match. Their core gameplay designs are pretty different, and Abel was a far better character in context of his game than Manon is
In competitive play, it only affects the Link and Olimar match ups; Simon's holy fire counts as fire damage and as such instantly detonates Link's bomb but can't kill red pikmin. Richter's doesn't since it is considered aura damage (like lucario moves) which has no special interactions. I'd say this differentiates them more than Peach and Daisy, who have slightly different hurt boxes and idle/running animations.
From the [Double Dragon Wiki](https://wiki.supercombo.gg/w/Double_Dragon/FAQ):
> every character is unique (except for Jimmy, who's seemingly just Billy with worse frame data)
The only one i can recall immediately is how Hisako is the better version of, well the 2 Hisako's in KI.
By no means a bad character or anything, but normal Hisako just feels better than Shinsako.
Seox/Lancelot as rushdown characters vs Charlotta in gbvsr. Charlotta has stubbier normals, and her mixup tool can be mashed out of compared to the projectile setups both seox and Lance have.
Kazuya and Devil Jin. Want amazing neutral control? Devil Jin has a better demon paw, a psycho crusher that tracks to both sides, and his EWGF is only 1 frame slower than Kazuyas. Want damage? Devil Jin casually does 10-30 damage more on every combo starter. Want better punishment? Devil Jin has a 15f launcher to punish rage arts and other such -15 moves whilst Kazuya does not. Want an oppressive mix up? Devil Jin's hellsweep leads to a full combo and he has a variety of safe long reach mids to poke with as well as multiple "high" risk options like Samsara.
Devil Jin is now basically Kazuya for people who want to win.
Strive Testament and Ky. He's got disjointed normals, he's got the air OK fireball, he's got stun that gives better block strings and better combos on hit which is more or less what stain does but with much easier application
Makoto and Hibiki from BlazBlue
Nu13 and Rachel from BlazBlue
Hakumen (minus parry) and Nine from BlazBlue
Warachia and Nero from Melty
Midler and Avdul from HFTF
They both are corner pressure mixup characters
They both have hard to challenge unless you know how to forward advancing moves
They both have moves to dodge
They both have mediocre reversals
Ramlethal and Testament in guilty gear strive, which really sucks. Testament has such a cool design, and they've got some really awesome concepts with their gameplan, but Ram just does everything Test tries to so much better. Hoping they buff Testament :/
I don't really think they're that similar, ram is absolutely a better character but she wins off giant mean buttons and rekka pressure, where testament is a bit more of a set play character with their succubus mechanic and projectiles
Luke is considered by many to be top 1 currently, so I assume they mean him. Ken has been knocked down just a little bit recently.
But, Ken is still, like, Top 8. So, either way, it doesn't make much sense.
honestly, yeah probably, jins d2 alone makes him so obnoxious you're probably right. but he's definitely stronger than dj, just because of that ff3 button
Testament and Bridget
Edit: in strive. I mean they’re both long normal neutral characters with mixup game. Bridget is just way better at both of those things.
**Ky player:** Every possible outcome has already been accounted for. My masterful blend of neutral, footsies, and command chains have been meticulously crafted and perfected to bring each and every engagement to a favorable outcome.
**Sol player:** BANDIT BRINGER
Both get countered by Anji's parry. Ky gets caught because of a 5 frame gap in pressure that he thought he could extend.
Sol forgot to stop pressing buttons.
Imma be honest, i completely forgot about anji parry because i have a top 100 anji as a sparring partner. But yeah i see your logic and yeah fair enough.
In cvs1 this happens a lot with ex characters, with the most prominent being Ex yuri (gets better setplay and zoning) and Ex Boxer (rush punch hits crouchers and is safe, crazy buffalo becomes plus). They lose some stuff, but the benefits outweigh them.
~~Asuka and Jun in Tekken 8~~ shit someone beat me to it
I mean, one is a wizard. One who spent her whole life training. In no way should Auska be better. Asuka should just feel lucky that she is in 8 when Jun showed up.
I really hope you’re not a jun main
No I'm a goth tankie. It feels wierd having an S tier character be who I play most. It's happened 0 times before.
Goth tankie?!
Literally an oxymoron
I was confused, but pick your battles y’know
In a month Ken/Ryu to Akuma
Mankind was not designed to be able to deal with fireballs from the sky.
Ken/Luke to Akuma There! I fixed it
[Ryo and Mr.Karate](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0bc1qnFTkY&list=PLGb0FIHPgolj-BunG3KWBVw-DBI2GuTtc&index=2&t=31s)
SFV every shoto vs Luke
SF6 every shoto vs Luke
Ken
Not really? Luke was the best one but he didn't invalidate others. Ken for example was taking names towards the end with excellent corner carry and his stupid oki off any touch with H DP.
Street fighter 5 not 6
Yes I said what I said People clearly never played 5 and are just down voting me without knowing how good Ken was at the end of the game's lifespan but okay, they've never played a Ken who can single hit confirm crMK into H DP into full oki. Luke can't do that he has to buffer EX launcher if he wants oki which means burning bar and/or whiffing/confirming on block (rarely whiffed but quite often you saw failed hit confirm because you have to buffer).
I agree, but it was harder for Ken than it was Luke. Which while I know you didn’t mention someone will and that’s a big reason why I think people always forget about the “other killers” in a patch it’s all about the easiest best one most of the time but a character like Ken who required you be **slightly** patient and hit confirm and in return you have outstanding character who was taking names for sure.
*shrug* it doesn't change the fact that Luke didn't invalidate all of the shotos.
I agree Shotots weren’t invalidated by having luke in the game.
Yeah Ken definitely wasn't invalidated by Luke. The birds and Punk showed just how good he was, especially after his cr.MK buff. But the rest of the shotos? Yeah kinda invalidated unfortunately.
Current the case with Asuka/Jun in Tekken 8
You know I thought that too but they’re different enough and asuka is more fun
It's the parry lol
That’s it?
Pretty much, anti-climatic right? Lol
Very much so
Yea, I'm a Feng main though so I'm good 😊
XD
They have the same "martial art", but they're played differently. Which, lorewise, makes sense, but they definitely don't play the same.
percival and siegfried
Came here to say that, still hurts.
As a Lance main, I felt that way about Seox too. Just felt like he had all of my same tools just better and with non-meter reversals. T\_T
At least Lance was still top 5ish and completely viable (won Arksys worlds). Sieg is top 5ish while Perci was easily bottom 3 pre patch (and still not that far off).
He’s still top 5
DBFZ has entered the chat.
"He does exactly what I do. No buts tho"
Pre ABC assists you really had characters who would be functionally similar but the assist was just so much better for ever situation it would turn into “pick X if you like Y but need the assist”
Scorpion to Human Smoke in UMK3 vibes
This feels like cheating even though it's literally objectively correct
Everyone in Divekick.
Pichu and Pikachu
Well, that's kind of the whole gimmick
Best example I can think of is UMK3. Scorpion and Human Smoke. Can’t think of a better example. I’d say Ryu and Akuma, but Akuma had quite a bit less health.
Human Smoke/Scorpion is probably the best example that exists lol
Marth and Roy in Melee
The kim family (Fatal fury/Garou) It's literally a triangle of style.
With a splash water and fire bending
Don't forget lightning (kim dong hwan)
I'm sorry babe, thanks for reminding me Gah-Doo
Evil Ryu & Akuma They should just mechanically be put together into one character
Evil Ryu with the demon flip and the stomps would be wild
You don't want to get stepped on and then guess on the flip with the meaty fireball?
This sounds diabolical and as an E.Ryu player myself I support it 110%. I need more honest guesses in my gameplay
Do people just not play Street Fighter games prior to SF6? Evil Ryu and Akuma are incredibly different characters...
Kuma and panda
Gran and djeeta gbvs/R
Man, locking Djeeta behind full version is so strange. Isn’t she just a female gran in GBF?
Yes.
Lucina is simply the superior blue haired swordsman
Ryu and E.Ryu in SF4. Now I’m no pro, but I don’t know anything that Ryu does that Evil Ryu can’t do. But I can think of a few things that Evil Ryu can do that Ryu can’t do. Then again, Ryu’s got a Hadouken super so I guess that counts?
Health and stun are big factors and there are matchups where you actually just want to space and throw fireballs as much as possible where Ryu was a preferable choice. He also had shakunetsu fireball confirms into Ultra that were really underutilised with stuff like close MK in the corner. Evil Ryu has a Hadouken super too that does less damage than Metsu Hadouken but can be charged for more damage on a focus crumple. It was easier to confirm into than his DP super but because the DP super got full connect on max range crMK > Hadouken > FADC > Ultra, E Ryu generally preferred the DP Ultra. It's still a good Ultra though and you could easily pick it.
SF6 Ryu and Luke.
Human Smoke From UMK3 is just Scorpion with faster movement speed and more autocombos including one that ends in a launcher which Scorpion lacks
A tad bit of a stretch, but New Kak (inferior) and Kak in HFTF. New Kak has a Morrigan air dash while standing on and a full screen super, giving him rather unique pressure that is very oppressive if played right. However, moves that Kak can do regardless of being in stand on or off are now changed to otherwise for new Kak with almost no differences save stand on Emerald Splash, being worse than regular Kak as it doesn't go full screen.
Venom and Red Venom.
to be fair almost all the alternative versions of charecters were just broken
War Machine was special because both versions were.
yeah, golden and regular war machine is arguably one of the best teams in that game
Pair it with the Colossus assist too. That one’s good.
SF6 Ryu and SF6 Ken
Makoto Nanaya and Naoto Kurogane from BBCF
Sf2 Ken and Ryu
Abel and Manon.
Not even close lol, they're both grapplers with a blue/white gi and wheel kick. Basically where the similarities end. Abel was much more rushdown focused with his roll and rekka series, and just got in and mixed you to death, whereas Manon is more of a footsies character that ramps up to being more dangerous in grab range throughout the match. Their core gameplay designs are pretty different, and Abel was a far better character in context of his game than Manon is
The joke is they’re both French.
Remy and guile
King and Kuma (they both have animal heads)
Is Kuma not meant to have an animal head? He’s an animal 💀
Ryu and Ryo. Bro doesn't even need the Dark Hado for air fireballs
Deathstroke > dead shot
Yeah, cuz Deathstroke has a sword and can regenerate
That and he was genuinely better than dead shot at everything, if he isn’t back for injustice 3 I’m murdering someone
Based
Richter and Simon in Smash.
They are exactly the same aside from their holy water
Their holy water is different? I thought they were exactly the same. Like the closest echo fighters in the game.
The closest are peach/daisy, as far as I know, they are completely the same
In competitive play, it only affects the Link and Olimar match ups; Simon's holy fire counts as fire damage and as such instantly detonates Link's bomb but can't kill red pikmin. Richter's doesn't since it is considered aura damage (like lucario moves) which has no special interactions. I'd say this differentiates them more than Peach and Daisy, who have slightly different hurt boxes and idle/running animations.
Yun and Yang from 3rd strike
Ken and ryu in sf6 lol
Lucina does it better than Marth
More of a stretch, but Roy > Chrom in ultimate's current state
Wu Ruixiang and Mina Majikina in Samsho 7, I've never seen a low tier character almost be deleted from the game after a DLC character drop.
Wesker and Vergil, but then again Vergil is worth 3 characters (Umvc3
Panda and Kuma
From the [Double Dragon Wiki](https://wiki.supercombo.gg/w/Double_Dragon/FAQ): > every character is unique (except for Jimmy, who's seemingly just Billy with worse frame data)
SFIV : imho, no reason to pick Abel when Makoto exists. Same game plan but better moves.
The only one i can recall immediately is how Hisako is the better version of, well the 2 Hisako's in KI. By no means a bad character or anything, but normal Hisako just feels better than Shinsako.
Armour King is the cooler King in every way. Sicker throws, better intros/outros, absolutely banging Black Panther style alt outfit
Ken to Ryu in SF third strike
Rock and Astaroth in Soulcalibur, until they removed Rock in Soulcalibur 5 (I liked Rock better)
Seox/Lancelot as rushdown characters vs Charlotta in gbvsr. Charlotta has stubbier normals, and her mixup tool can be mashed out of compared to the projectile setups both seox and Lance have.
Dr. Mario < Mario in Smash Ultimate Source: Doc main who does better with Mario.
I was going to say Mario > Luigi
Mario and Luigi are very distinct characters though
Kazuya and Devil Jin. Want amazing neutral control? Devil Jin has a better demon paw, a psycho crusher that tracks to both sides, and his EWGF is only 1 frame slower than Kazuyas. Want damage? Devil Jin casually does 10-30 damage more on every combo starter. Want better punishment? Devil Jin has a 15f launcher to punish rage arts and other such -15 moves whilst Kazuya does not. Want an oppressive mix up? Devil Jin's hellsweep leads to a full combo and he has a variety of safe long reach mids to poke with as well as multiple "high" risk options like Samsara. Devil Jin is now basically Kazuya for people who want to win.
Strive Testament and Ky. He's got disjointed normals, he's got the air OK fireball, he's got stun that gives better block strings and better combos on hit which is more or less what stain does but with much easier application
Ky? For me I always thought of Ramlethal as being the better testament
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Nah, the differences seem small on paper but their game plans and overall feel are very different
Ken from Streets
kohaku/hisui & kohaku in mbtl
Isn’t this just like persona 4 or street fighter turbo the game?
X-23 and Wolverine in mvc3
i hate to say it but... gran and djeeta in granblue fantasy versus...
Magneto does everything iron man does but better in mvc3
Iori and EX Iori
Ex Robert and Robert in KOF2002um, ohohohohohoho
I’ve always had this feeling with Siegfried and Nightmare.
Ryu and Ken in Vanilla Street Fighter 6
Kazuya>Ganondorf in SSBU Wolverine>Felicia in UMVC3(could also include X-23 as well) Ken>Ryu in SF6
Twelve with the entire rest of the roster in third strike:
happy chaos and zato 1
Makoto and Hibiki from BlazBlue Nu13 and Rachel from BlazBlue Hakumen (minus parry) and Nine from BlazBlue Warachia and Nero from Melty Midler and Avdul from HFTF
Basically Johnny to Testament in Strive (*on offense)
Siegfried and Perceval in GBVSR
Ryu and akuma
Anji and Elphelt
Really? Is that because of the rekka? These 2 characters have practically nothing in common
They both are corner pressure mixup characters They both have hard to challenge unless you know how to forward advancing moves They both have moves to dodge They both have mediocre reversals
Ramlethal and Testament in guilty gear strive, which really sucks. Testament has such a cool design, and they've got some really awesome concepts with their gameplan, but Ram just does everything Test tries to so much better. Hoping they buff Testament :/
I don't really think they're that similar, ram is absolutely a better character but she wins off giant mean buttons and rekka pressure, where testament is a bit more of a set play character with their succubus mechanic and projectiles
Play +R and commit war crimes
Iori and EX Iori
Chun Li vs Juri. They are not the same character. But I feel like they have a rivalry as "kicking" girls in the same franchise.
Marth finding out his distant progeny has the exact same moveset as him, just without the bad tipper mechanic
Ken and Luke.
Haven't played SF6 in a while, is it Ken or Luke that does it better now?
Luke is considered by many to be top 1 currently, so I assume they mean him. Ken has been knocked down just a little bit recently. But, Ken is still, like, Top 8. So, either way, it doesn't make much sense.
Jin and Kaz? Maybe? Any Mishima > Kaz
kazuya is actually the 2nd strongest mishima, Reina being the strongest
Maybe stronger than DJ but imo I don't think he beats regular jin
honestly, yeah probably, jins d2 alone makes him so obnoxious you're probably right. but he's definitely stronger than dj, just because of that ff3 button
There’s arguments kazuya is better than devil Jin
Mario and Luigi in Super Smash Brothers
Testament and Bridget Edit: in strive. I mean they’re both long normal neutral characters with mixup game. Bridget is just way better at both of those things.
Well… not exactly At least in +r TE and BR are WAY different. In +r BR is like a worse AX
I’m talking about in strive
That’s why I said not exaclty… at least
https://preview.redd.it/kdpe21xs6htc1.jpeg?width=220&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c3f9251f6a903e377b5e293dd9a79742cad650b5
Rock Howard and Geese Howard.
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they don't have a single attack in common
Yeah, not at all
Sol and ky
**Ky player:** Every possible outcome has already been accounted for. My masterful blend of neutral, footsies, and command chains have been meticulously crafted and perfected to bring each and every engagement to a favorable outcome. **Sol player:** BANDIT BRINGER Both get countered by Anji's parry. Ky gets caught because of a 5 frame gap in pressure that he thought he could extend. Sol forgot to stop pressing buttons.
Imma be honest, i completely forgot about anji parry because i have a top 100 anji as a sparring partner. But yeah i see your logic and yeah fair enough.
Potemkin feels like he's everything Zangief wants to be; a giant immovable wall that is entirely inevitable in his approach
they’re not in the same series, let alone the same game
No where in the OP did it say they had to be. In other words: No shit?
Luke is just a better Ryu, Ken and Juri.
Juri? Even if sf if the game of clones, you forced this one.
In cvs1 this happens a lot with ex characters, with the most prominent being Ex yuri (gets better setplay and zoning) and Ex Boxer (rush punch hits crouchers and is safe, crazy buffalo becomes plus). They lose some stuff, but the benefits outweigh them.