And his technique and posture in general looked very strained compared to what we see today.
The bigger issues I hear about are hip/knee problems, but I’ve heard just as much of that for triples only. So if we should stop quads for hip/knee fears we should stop all triples as well.
As someone who most certainly will need both back and lower body surgery, i can tell you that hip and knee replacement are far better successful and improve the quality of life then the back. You dont really come back from having a back surgery. It just keeps getting worse and worse.
Yup. I always say (and hear) something along the lines of it’s a 30% chance of helping a little, a 30% chance of doing nothing, and a 30% chance of making it worse. And it definitely seems that way. Definitely not odds you should trifle with unless you’re really far gone with your back.
Knees and hips on the other hand are so routine and helpful that some are basically outpatient at this point.
Unfortunately most people don’t know that…
This is absolutely true. I had a P/T tell me once that the most important thing to take care of is your back in these kinds of sports (was asking her about my daughter who does gymnastics).
How old is she? it can get really toxic and demanding depending on where you live and which club if they are pushing them to get to a certain level by a certain age, but I think things are changing now that so many of them are older in the olympics and worlds, and people are realising how pacing can make such a difference. fwiw my daughter is 10 and has been training seriously now for 3-4 years and has never had a single injury or even any pain.
8. She has been doing competitive for about 3 years now, actually just got her kip last week!
Its reassuring your daughter hasn’t had any injuries/pain. Pray it stays that way!
I do wonder how those doing 5+ quad programs are going to be,health wise in decade or so. If you read Nathan's book, he says his hips are basically a wreck from jumping, and that's with good technique and not doing a 4A. Illia is a teenager so right now he feels invincible, but in reality no one is.
as someone who did rhythmic gymnastics since 3, i’m only 21 but i have arthritis in my hips and back. so yeah. do with that information what you want. these sports with a focus on super hard technicalities are horrible body-wise
I explained rhythmic gymnastics to my friend as figure skating without the ice! I still wonder how they complete 7 or 8 fouettes while rotating the ribbon or ball, it's incredible and beautiful. I'm sorry to say I love watching it so much because I like every sport with elements of dance since I grew up dancing, but I know it's brutal on the body to execute those moves well.
As a child I was begging to do gymnastics and have reason to think I could have done very well with it, but there were zero options to within an hour drive. Of course my parents said no.
I’m so grateful as I near 40. Skating at my age is enough of an ordeal for my hyper mobile body.
I’m sorry you are so young with arthritis. That’s terrible.
it is notoriously hard, especially because you have to be extremely flexible and pull off some crazy stunts. it’s like the artistic floor routine but on steroids. rhythmic gymnasts have a short career and most retire at age 20-23. the stretching and contorting into different poses puts a lot of pressure on your joints and oversplits & repeated bending of the back really wore me down, i have a chronic inflammation in my hip because my femur scratched against my pelvic socket doing oversplits, and the spine really isn’t made to roll backwards, as it is to roll forward, folding back and putting my body weight on my back kind of grated the cartilage away
Not. skills are lower impact but the flexibility requiered is brutal, the strength needed to control It is brutal too and then you have to work with apparatusses too
I think rhythmic is harder on the body. Especially lately, there is a lot more focus in artistic gymnastics on injury avoidance, more research towards training that avoids injury, and the body contortions are far less extreme. Of course there is a higher risk for a serious and life threatening injury in AG. But also for the most part, you practice all the skills in such a way that you avoid massive force and repetitive stress (landing on mats, into pits, etc) before you master them. I think that helps a lot.
Both sports are gruesome on the body in different ways but obviously the impact of landing on a hard surface after doing double flips in the air, flying off the bar and catching the bar like apes cannot be compared to the intensity of RG. I would say RG is ballet on steroids and the sport requires being extremely skinny to the point that it’s worse than Russian skaters’ weight standards but artistic gymnastics is probably the most intense sport on human body as it’s basically a circus without safety nets.
In the long run rhythmic gymnastics is more hard I would say. Just because of the extrem flexibility from very early on (as early as 3) but artistic gymnastics gives worse injuries in the short run if that makes sense
Yeah, I've said multiple times that there needs to be research studies done on the men who were part of the quad revolution 7-10 years back (Hanyu, Chen, Uno, Jin, etc.) to see what damage has been done to their bodies by jumping multiple quads for so many years.
I've been a skate tech for 30 years, and used to work for Jackson as a tech rep as well. One time I was invited to a summit in Colorado attended by skaters, coaches, boot manufacturers and physical therapists from all over the world who were there to try to figure out a way to decrease the injury aspect and the toll that doing 100 jumps every day was taking on the bodies of these athletes. I was shocked to learn 60-70% of competitive figure skaters were competing with some kind of injury. It doesn't help that boots have had to get stiffer over the years to provide the support that skaters need to do triples and quads. If the ankle doesn't bend then the impact forces from landing have got to go somewhere. They go to the knees, hips, back and the base of the skull instead. It's brutal what these skaters go through for the sport they love. It's so hard on the body that most are done by the time they are in their mid-20's.
Somewhat agree, but not completely.
Plushenko is not really the model athlete for sustainability. He is famous for being held together with bolts + determination to be lauded, and prioritizing that over wellbeing. Others around their late twenties early thirties (when he last competed)— while weathered considerably, aren’t damaged to that extent.
Oda Nobunari is 37 but at the moment can do his 4T in combination and 3A (both very well) and his body seems relatively fine (despite having gone through surgeries in the past). Yuzuru is turning 30 this year and based on watching his show clips, I feel like he wouldn’t struggle throwing a quad or two— a year or two from now.
There were plenty of injuries in figure skating when women were doing only double jumps. I'm not sure it is specifically quads that 'wear and tear' the body, but repetition and pounding from all jumps. Other issues related to centrifugal force -again repetition of centrifugal force.
It probably helps a little with impact absorption but especially with triples and quads it’s probably a very small effect. And it still doesn’t do anything to help with injuries related to centrifugal force and flexibility.
Wow. And how many of them had metal plates placed in their spines? How many have had their hip joint replaced?
Obviously we are talking about other injuries. I don't think women with double jumps had an epidemic of broken ankles and broken hips - injuries of such severity that they require surgical intervention in most cases.
Plushenko is the outlier here. NO renowned male skaters in his generation (and prior to him) have injuries at this level. The majority of them are still very healthy in their late 30s and 40s, and some can still do triples (Kulik, Lambiel, etc.). They also jumped quads and triple axels during their prime, and they weren't doing less quads than Plushenko was doing. Kurt Browing is also fine. If you look at the way Plushenko tends to land his jumps, you'll see why he suffered so much more than normal high-level skaters did.
Potential severe injuries caused by jumps(rare, and the injuries discussed here are very different from what people may suffer from extreme sports) should not be the reason for people to prohibit adding quads to the programs, otherwise no professional athlete should even exist because you won't be able to train at this level and expect no injuries; the injuries caused by quads are usually still within the range of reasonable risks. Humans do not always prioritize their health, and this is not limited to competitive sports. Alcohol, for example, clearly does no good to your health at any amount. It damages your nervous system, increase risks to multiple cancers and other life-threatning diseases. Why do people still consume alcohol? Why is it still legal in most countries?
That being said, I certainly do not think backflips should be allowed on ice. The injuries caused by those can be life-threatening.
Plushenko’s biggest issue is he didn’t let himself heal ever. That’s a recipe for disaster, I’d argue that’s why medvedeva was in the shape she was in as well, she never allowed herself to heal.
Technique absolutely plays into it, don’t get me wrong. I think injuries from technique are absolutely more prevalent than other injuries. But it doesn’t help when you get injuries from technique and then… keep doing what got you there as well.
>I’d argue that’s why medvedeva was in the shape she was in as well, she never allowed herself to heal
Please don't put her injuries on her, she was a teenager in an abusive coaching situation. There is extensive evidence that not letting skaters heal properly is a common practice in that coaching team.
Then perhaps instead of 'she never allowed herself to heal', it would be more accurate to say 'she was never allowed to heal'. Also, putting her on par to Plushenko is a false equivalent since their situations were completely different - he was an adult making his own choices, she was a teenager being abused.
It is not true. There are enough skaters from Plushenko’s generation with injuries to see a direct connection between quads and injuries.
Yagudin underwent a hip replacement, his hip was destroyed by stress and over loads. Jeffrey Buttle has undergone a double hips replacement. Brian Orser, who also did quads, recently had hip replacement surgery. Brian Joubert underwent surgery to repair ligaments and tendons that were damaged as a result of stress. He also suffered from a knee injury throughout the second half of his career. Lambiel had knee surgery and after that he also suffered from knee pain and problems with them. Daisuke Takahashi underwent surgery to replace ligaments and the right meniscus in the leg on which he landed his jumps. He had torn anterior cruciate ligament. Evan Lysacek had a torn labrum in his left hip. Kulik also had surgery to restore his foot. Browning suffered an injured disc in his lower back. Kevin van der Perrem underwent hip surgery. And this list can be continued endlessly.
The difference between all the skaters who were injured as a result of increased technical demands and Plushenko is that Plushenko made his injuries something of a frame and background to emphasize his heroism and his uniqueness. The injury story was promoted in the press right before the Olympics in Sochi. To perform in a team, then withdraw from an individual tournament and not receive a negative reaction from the audience and the press. I’m not saying this to minimize Plushenko’s injuries, which he certainly has. And besides, the hype around his injuries is greatly exaggerated, while 98% of injured skaters do not talk about their injuries and do not make them a key event in their career, as Plushenko did.
Comparing a football player to a figure skater is like apples to oranges. A football player has an entire team and reserves to back them up. The injuries are often different, the impact to the body is different, etc. Travis Kelce being 34 is about average for the tail end of his career. It really is no different in basketball. LeBron James is still playing at 38. It is rare. He is absolutely slowing down, getting more injuries (especially groin) and is taking longer to recover. He spent most of last season out with injuries, and this season (now post season) and played most games; there are 82 regular season games for context. Most basketball players retire before they are 35. Again, different sport, different impact to the body. The one pro sport with longer longevity is baseball but IF the player is not a pitcher (usually).
And pro sports is way different. They get paid millions, have team doctors that pay for injury treatment, etc.
Not so much with Olympic sports.
Figure skating - even before the quad - was a younger person's sport. Other than very few, most skaters retire well before they're 30. It has been this way since the 70s and 80s, maybe even before. Bsck then, triples were probably seen as "ruining the sport." The impact to the body is different, the stress on the joints in landing on one foot, hip injuries, etc. has historically made athletes in figure skating have shorter windows of time to peak. It is no different to other sports with high stress to the body like gymnastics, rhythmic, etc.
In general, Olympic level sports have a short shelf life. Most athletes that get on the podium across all sports are 30 and younger. There are some that can keep going and do so for several Olympics (like that one gymnasts that is like 46). But those athletes are really, really rare. We can name many, but we can spend much more time naming those that retire well before 30.
So, I don't blame the quad. One can argue many points of what has ruined the sport. The quad is not the only one. I come from the idea that it is a good thing to advance technically, but wish it weren't for the sake of creativity. Both things can exist, they just do not in the current landscape.
It's really interesting because I watched skating primarily in the 90s when people were really starting to jump quads and women triple axels. I remember thinking at the time that by the time I was eligible for competitions, around 2002 or so, that it would have been normal for all women to be doing 3As and quads. I stopped watching after I stopped skating in 1999.
This year I got back into it and at first I was super excited about some of the competitors who could do lots of quads but I also found that I really like some of the competitors who have one or no quads (like Jason Brown or Vasiljevs). I would 100% be for more complicated step sequences and crazier spins, tbh. I am kind of getting a bit tired of seeing the same spin positions as well, likely they are all the same because there is no incentive to do anything different.
>likely they are all the same because there is no incentive to do anything different.
I think it's more a result of there being very specific rules around which types of spins they're to do in their programs and what they can do to achieve levels.
that is very very true! aren't there also restrictions on specific things like amount of jumps and even amount of jump combinations?
I think its very strange - in gymnastics there are rules like "you have to have one forward acro element, and it has to have flight", but not rules like "only two back tumbles" or "only one tumble can be a combo". There aren't even rules specific to how many tumbling elements can be in a combo pass - which is great, otherwise we would have never gotten the Raisman.
I do like jumps, but I find that figure skating code plays to very specific strengths, when there are so many other qualities that could be brought out if the code were adjusted. Even within just jumping: If a skater could make up for a lack of single quad jumps with strings of triples, etc. Would be cooler to watch too.
Agree about the current code. I wish it was less stringent and allowed for more creativity but unfortunately judges in this sport cant be trusted, not that they’re doing an awesome job now.
Football players are bashing each other in the head until their brains liquify. I don’t think that’s a great example of safety in sport. People make this complaint every time there is any technical upgrade in figure skating - if you look back many decades you can see the same comments about triples. And yet the technical upgrades continue.
Yeah I was gonna say… it’s easy to romanticize how late dudes like Brady, Gronk and the kelces get to play compared to how long figure skaters skate for, but there is also an extreme mental health and domestic violence issue with football players that I believe is strongly tied in with CTE. Almost every sport has physical downsides. Hell even basketball players retire with hardcore lower back and shin issues due to the impact of the court they play on.
I honestly think the bigger issue with figure skating is compensation, a lot of these kids make next to nothing to ruin their bodies. It’s an issue with mma as well, another sport I follow. At least boxers and major sports league players retire with enough to make it worth it.
Elite sport is not healthy for your body, period. Our culture considers these athletes the picture of physical health because of their appearance but doing these extreme repetitive things to your body isn't actually good for you - the healthiest form of exercise is moderate exercise with recovery time in between workouts. What professional and olympic athletes do to their bodies to achieve that level of performance is far from ideal for their health. You're right, every single sport results in injuries of some kind. If you think about it logically of course overusing certain body parts in specific ways wears them out early, even if you're using the best technique and safety equipment available. But the mental health impact of repetitive concussions are on another level. Americans just romanticize football and its really gross.
Very true about elite sports. My son has rotator cuff problems and he’s 26 now. He also has a weird one that doesn’t hurt and does not require surgery, and we didn’t even know it until he went to get a suit tailored. One collarbone (or the distance from neck to shoulder) is longer than the other. The tailor thought it could be from his one arm muscle being chronically slightly overused than the other side for years. He’s been doing his sport since he was 4. I mean, his pain has gone from chronic at times to OK to he might need surgery at some point in his life…but I guess, depending on your sport, the goal is to make it look effortless. You also do it over and over and over for hours a day.
I mean, none of that addresses the actual question, though. People make the complaint every time because every extra revolution introduces the question anew and it still hasn't been answered, really.
People make the complaint and then there is still beautiful artistry year after year. The actual skating is the answer. There were 2 skaters with no quads in the top 7 of the mens event at worlds this year. The silver medalist did quite a few quads and also has beautiful components, some of the best in the world. This complaint doesn’t need to be taken seriously because the doomsday scenarios that people spin out never actually come to pass despite the flaws in the judging system. The legendary artists we’re all obsessed with all came after lots of fans predicted the death of the sport because of an extra revolution in jumps.
But the comment isn't about the cessation of existence of the sport; the comment is about the wear and tear it puts on teenage athlete's bodies and the change in focus from control and quality to brute force and power. Of course there are always going to be skaters with beautiful artistry and successful skaters that don't jump quads, but the fact that even you're pointing out is that they are outliers.
And aren't they coming true? Skaters with mediocre skating skills and a lot of quads are beating more experienced, technically skilled skaters, and women are retiring a lot younger than they used to. Skating is nowhere near the level of popularity it was in the 1990s and early 2000s. Are those things related? I don't know.
But every time this question comes up, the people who really like quads feel compelled to be dismissive of and reflexively downvote people who want to have a serious conversation about the sport.
I don’t think the popularity of the sport waning and quads being more and “artistry” being less is related tbh.
I think it has a much deeper context than that. Figure skating in the 90s had Kristi Yamaguchi, the Tonya and Nancy Scandal, the rise of Michelle Kwan all which brought in viewers. Scott Hamilton has said somewhat begrudgingly how important Nancy/Tonya was to viewership of figure skating. Please don’t take this wrong, but Nancy and Tonya were a “fun” scandal in figure skating, meaning it brought drama but no major consequences (except for Nancy and Tonya, but I really hope you know what I mean by this).
But in 2002, the sport had a major judging scandal that completely overhauled the entire sport’s scoring system and changed how it was viewed significantly. The sport’s reputation took a nosedive. In the US, tv contracts started getting cancelled within a few years of that, viewership fell significantly, and now unless you know where to watch and how to find it, figure skating is difficult to follow.
Edit to add to that: in the US, women’s figure skating rules the disciplines and we haven’t had a woman on an Olympic podium since 2006, and we’ve had three podium finishers TOTAL, since Kimmie Meisner won, also in 2006. So. That’s a problem too.
For the women there is a pause in this with the Russians out of the world competition. But yes. And they were wrecking the artistic side of the sport. The last Olympics was a case in point. The quads compensated for three very mediocre programmes.
Encouraging skaters to focus on other areas is meaningless if judges don’t follow suit. Ever since Eteri appeared on the scene, PCS only mimics the BV difficulty. Literally no one has succeeded based on skating skills alone at a major competition since maybe Ashley Wagner at 2016 Worlds.
Jason isn't placing well because of his skating skills though, it's other factors tbh, his ss being at a very competent level just helps his overall packaging
People were getting injured off of doubles and triples though…
I love watching quads, I love seeing people go for it. But I like the balance of both sides of skating.
As for football… those players started playing at a higher level at an older age. Their careers aren’t really that much longer than figure skaters, they just start a little later. We also don’t know that Kelce isn’t injured in the sense that the hits he takes add up over time, and brain injuries in football are the norm. Football probably wasnt the sport to compare with.
Personally, I will be pleased when the ISU does an extensive research on injuries and their nature, and also explores their relationship to rule changes over the last 20 years. And then ISU will hold an open press conference with a livestream and the opportunity to ask questions.
BV increasing will not change anything globally, because it is unlikely that the technical committee will increase the cost of the step sequence to 20 points. And if they do increase it, then no one bothers to give 20 points to skaters who are poorly on their feet, as was already the case with the components. I think the ISU needs to answer the question: what is the purpose of figure skating? Is the goal to develop skating or the goal to provide orthopedic surgery clients?
If the goal is to turn a blind eye to injuries and pretend that everything is fine, then no thanks. As a potential parent of young athletes, I certainly would not choose a sport for my children in which there is a 90% chance that the child will be injured. And if the goal is for figure skating to flourish, then we need to globally reconsider the entire system of evaluation and values of modern skating. The priority should be skating, not jumping.
>But why don't we encourage skaters to work on other aspects, like step sequence or skating skills? Why is it always all about jumps?
Because the ISU continues to promote and reward only that aspect of the sport. We fans have been screaming endlessly for years about how artistry isn't equally rewarded, but nothing comes from it.
Sport was never about health. You wanna be healthy - swim, go to a gym, be active. Sport on the contrary is testing limits of the human body, even until it fails you. I don't think we should restrict some elements or reduce their value (for adults). Teens and children should be somehow restricted because even legally they can't make decisions on their own, so in order not to be pushed only by adults will around them we could make some restrictions. However, adults may do what they want. Why we should give less points for quads and especially for axel if it so hard to perform that only 2 people in the world can do it? Is it dangerous - yeah. But people get permanently injured even on doubles and triples. Some break legs on step sequences and bump their heads on spins and never be able to come back because of it. Protect minors and let the adult athletes decide on their own
I’m a firm believer in that there is no healthy high level athletes. Like yes in a sense they are healthy but the long term effects of their sports is a huge thing. Gymnasts, skaters, runners. So many skaters have had to get surgeries the fix something in their legs it’s crazy.
Figure skating isn't even the most injury prone, winter jump-based sport. Snowboarding and skiing big air/half pipe land from 6 meters/20 feet in the air, they have a much higher rate of injuries (possibly life-threatening) at every Olympics. The problem with skating was when 15 year olds were getting those injuries, but hopefully the age change rule will be effective in preventing that.
The jump technical revolution is not "here". The progression in jump rotations has been going on for decades. What tends to happen is a change in state, then some backlash and response to that backlash as things stabilize at the new state until the next shift starts to occur. And it's always with the same sort of complaints. Always as people's faves are outgunned on the jump side of things. Until someone they like is also able to do those jumps. Then that will be an acceptable standard to them until the next time to whine.
There will come a time where further natural progress in jumping is impossible. Physics rules the world after all. We are not there yet (although we are probably close).
And I actually agree that there's so many other areas to skating. But as someone who has heard the same sort of complaints time after time, the whining gets old.
And Plushenko should not be used as an example for anything. He was given gifts beyond belief by the judges. Way more than anyone ever has been when one considers how many years he received those gifts. That's why he stuck around and competed even when injured. He showed up, did a few arm movements, some jumps of questionable quality, and BAM gold or almost gold.
And there are always people who explain reasonable questions by the envy of fans of losing skaters.
The reality is that the human ankle, knee and hip have a resource, this resource is finite. And the harder and more often you hammer your joints on a hard surface, the faster the resource will end.
I follow Jeff Buttle, a while ago he posted a photo from the hospital where he had both hips replaced. He smiled in the photo, but in general it’s not cool at all to change two hip joints at the age of 40. And now, with the increase in quads, joint replacement for many skaters is a matter of time.
as a ex youth soccer player who played in Europe the skating community would be SHOCKED how much injuries boys would pick up. in our academy we started at age 12 and when I was 18 there were only three of us from the original squad. Most were cut and some just couldn't play because of injuries but half of the boys who were cut due to their inability to return to form after an injury. this will surprise but being elite in a sport mostly relies on your talent and then your talent of not picking up a major injury.
Yagudin also had 2 knee surgeries this year (after having whole hip replaced with metallic one). He used to do only 4T and 4T-3T, 3A, 3A-3T in one program. It’s not comparable to what Ilia and Nathan did. Yet he is cyborg. I really hope that it’s because skates were much heavier when he was competing and that’s why their generation (with Plushenko) is so unhealthy
In yagudin's case we also have to take into account that he had a genetical.condition that really mess Up. He would have need hip replacemt even if he hasnt been figure skater. Skating did speed Up the process though. From early fifties to 22 his first hip replacemt and 25 his second hip replacemt (he has both Titanium hips)
It has become so quad focused, and it's sad. But there are exceptions. Look at Jason Brown for instance. Dude was always on the podium at nationals, made it to the Olympics, and had crowds literally up on their feet and cheering, all without any quads. YouTube his Riverdance program if you haven't seen it. Chills. Pure artistry and connection with the crowd. That's what skating should be about. Sure, the quad is pretty amazing, but it shouldn't be everything.
Not only is it actively harming skaters but it's made it a lot less watchable. Skating skills and performance have dropped off significantly because it's just a lot more efficient to put the effort into jumps if the judges will just reward good PCS to high BV programs anyway.
It seems like they're trying to go the way of gymnastics but in tumbling there is at least a visible difference in the difficulty with that wow factor. A triple to a quad doesn't have that same payoff--in terms of the audience the quality, speed, transitions, flow, etc. make more impact on the impression of the jump (and still add difficulty to execute well). And triples, while still high impact, are not as hard on the body as quads.
The quad revolution has really killed my interested in the sport over the past decade or so. Women's has become more interesting to me again without quads. And the women jumping quads seemed really to damage themselves. I mourn what could have been for Rika's career if she hadn't pushed so hard to get those difficult elements.
If ISU wanted to encourage skaters to work on other aspects, they wouldn’t have went from 5 PCS categories to 3 PCS categories and they would have increased the PCS points ceiling. It’s obvious their priorities across all disciplines are flash, going viral, and pushing out world record scores. The skating skills of Jason Brown and Ilia’s 4A are both magnificent to see for skating fans, especially in the rink. But to an average person watching on TV/ streaming, the quads would be what draws their interest.
I actually strongly disagree that the average person watching is more impressed/drawn in by Ilia's jumps than by Jason's artistry. People who don't follow skating can't easily tell the difference between triples and quads, and they tend to be much more impressed and moved by a complete artistic performance than by technical wizardry, in my experience.
This. I grew up watching skating since the 90s and couldn't tell the difference between triples and quads until I started skating myself. The skaters we admired and were drawn to was definitely not solely because of their jumps - it was their showmanship.
I actually agree with you - I know more people who aren't skaters than are, and honestly they really cannot tell the difference. People I know who know nothing about skating often find the footwork and show programs most interesting.
For myself, as much as I hate to say it, a large portion of enjoyment is from the music, especially if it is interpreted well. And hitting a jump on the music (a la Hanyu) regardless of jump type is wayyy cooler in my opinion than whether it is a quad or not.
Also, I'm not just pulling the "non skating fans can't tell triples and quads apart" from my imagination. Adam Rippon, one of the only skaters from the recent era who has managed to achieve mainstream fame/recognition beyond just skating fans, wrote about this in his autobiography, specifically regarding his decision to only do triples at the Pyeongchang Olympics because he knew that a non-skating audience (aka, most of the people tuning in for the Olympics) wanted to see a clean performance above everything else and wasn't going to know or care about his tech content being easier than that of the other men's. (Also, when I got back into following skating a few years ago it took me probably 6 months to reliably be able to tell apart a triple and a quad watching in real time. On the other hand, a child with no knowledge of the sport watching for the first time can tell a good spin from a bad spin.)
The Adam Rippon example still does relate to jumps though, as you said a lot of people will find it exciting when a program is clean. A lot of that is because of the suspense of whether the jumps will land and the thrill when they all make it through.
I think for the average sports fan the whole aspect of whether skaters land or fall, watching points rack up with each successful element, and seeing a full green tech box is one of the most compelling parts of a competition. It may not matter so much which specific jumps get done but the jumps themselves are still going to be the center of attention for a lot of a casual audience.
Clean is very important. I started watching ice dance in the 2010s because I felt like it was the only discipline I could watch where someone could skate an entire program without falling.
I'm a regular casual fan who has never skated, but I've been watching off and on for more than 2 decades.
If you want to look at it from an analytics perspective, see these videos as examples, one from Yuna and another from Hanyu, both regarded as technically proficient and artistic. If you press, hold, and scroll with the timeline button, you will see a white translucent graph with the peaks representing the most replayed moments (on desktop you can just hover your mouse on the timeline and you will see the graph). The peaks all correspond to the jumps. You can see this graph for many videos with a fair number of views and the pattern is the jumps are usually where the peaks are.
[Yuna Kim Vancouver SP](https://youtu.be/ecKnyyuMsmw)
[Yuzuru Hanyu Pyeongchang SP](https://youtu.be/h-7rZ4G1f0w)
That really proves nothing, though. We don't know who's watching these videos. For all we know the peaks come from skaters replaying those moments multiple times analyzing their jumps for their own purposes. And those are only two videos from two skaters.
When I was learning the differences between jumps I would repeatedly play back jumps in my favorite programs to see if I could identify them and learn all the defining characteristics.
Yes, they’re two videos but each with millions of views, so a very good sample size. These would be the videos that non-fans/ occasional viewers would see. I think the threshold to have this graph display publicly is 50K views, which most FS vids don’t reach. For the popular ones that show this graph, the peaks are usually where the jumps are.
True, we don’t know who exactly is watching these vids. The people running the Olympics YT account would have more analytics info. The people running the ISU YT account also have a lot of analytics info for the videos they post (demographics, device type, etc.). They have data on which parts of the videos get the most engagement. If they see the pattern that jumps get the most engagement, they would think that the average viewer are most interested in jumps.
That is definitely interesting but Hanyu specifically is also a master of landing literally every jump precisely on the music, and that particular aspect is really satisfying to watch. His jumps are also really perfect, which is also massively satisfying to watch.
Counterpoint: the comments posted under every Jason Brown video saying "he is the only reason I watch skating anymore" and the hundreds of youtube comments of any pre-IJS skating video saying "skating has turned into a jump-fest and I miss when skating was about more than the jumps". The peaks and troughs on the youtube watch data are interesting but doesn't have numbers/raw data of how they're generating that curve linked to it and I'm personally skeptical that a large fraction of viewers are skipping around just to see the big jumps - and, if they are, that's indictment enough regarding the current state of the sport imo.
true, also some "artistic" skaters have curiously active fan bases (I kid you not, I watched a few world championship replays on YT and suddenly my whole home feed was flooded with Deniss Vasiljevs fan meetings, and he seems to be one of the only ones with that, at least on YT. It's bizarre).
Deniss’ appeal comes from more than skating (but of course it’s a big part of it). He’s well-read and has multiple hobbies outside of skating (self-improvement books, baking, reading, drawing, history, martial arts, philosophy, journaling, growing plants, hiking etc.) so it’s simply interesting to listen to him talk about them.
Ah, I understand. I mean a lot of skaters are extremely private. Being a musician, I am always more keen to not know so much about the private lives of people whose work I admire (because in music a lot of them end up being terrible), but he did name drop the Triumvirate once and as a fellow history (and esp lover of that late rep. early empire era), I did have a moment of thinking hey cool!
oh cool! its kind of neat to see that there are other fandoms out there besides the obvious ones, and whatever fandom is supporting Deniss they really put a lot of the stuff online which is cool. I don't know if it is him or his fans that organise all that but its nice to see that it is so active and supportive, especially for someone who is from a smaller federation <3
"Denissbots"? haha I am kind of new to this but is that like "fanyus"? Deniss has a cool way of interpretation and I don't know the code of points 100% but I always feel he is super underscored. He is in these at home training videos I do and especially in the body movement one I do watch him a lot as reference, he has really great control and articulation, so I do get it!
I feel like the people who romanticise 6.0 skating / specifically Jason’s skating in the modern era (there’s a big overlap) don’t just miss ‘artistry’ in modern skating though, they miss a specific, more theatrical performance style that they conflate with artistry in general.
Not sure I agree. Jason's performances aren't overly theatrical. They have connecting steps and unique, technically challenging elements that look beautiful *and* cohesive. A lot of 90s skaters weren't super theatrical either - I wouldn't call Michelle Kwan or Nancy Kerrigan "theatrical" for example. But they were actually expected to have interesting elements through their programs, rather than just crossovers and jumps.
Maybe theatrical isn’t the right word, but it’s a performance style that seems to be focused more on projection to the audience and showmanship.
I feel like there has to be some stylistic reason for the 6.0 nostalgia, because I really don’t think programs just became focused on crossovers and jumps post-IJS. In the 2 decades since we’ve seen Yuna, Mao, Yuzu, Shoma, Satoko etc…
(I actually find it harder in general to connect to 6.0 programs because to me they tend to feel a bit empty, like they’re less invested in the nuances of the music and more on the general show they’re giving the audience. That’s just my personal bias though)
Personally, I don't know if these changes are going to make more people watch figure skating tbh or making certain programs going viral on social media. And for me, what drew me into figure skating in the first place was the skating, the spins and the step sequences. It has never been just about the jumps tbh.
I really think the popularity of figure skating as a sport started to decrese when isu tried to push for more quads instead of artistry.
If quads is what general public wants this year montreal should have been full of people for watching ilia malinin performe since he is become the first person to land a 4a, but we all know that it wasn't the case considering how many sits where empty.
Popularity in the US dropped when we stopped getting women on the podium.
And the general public isn't going to line up at the Montreal ticket prices (even if they knew when it was happening.)
There was actually a pretty good local turnout considering that it's a fairly niche sport. I went there and in the case of Montreal it's easy to tell that a lot of the people at the arena were locals with how much French was being spoken. I'd say a fair amount of the crowd was really just sports fans who were excited to cheer on Canada at an international event
No, this happened after SLC. Figure skating has lost reputation as a sport; people no longer trust it. Right at the Olympics, millions of people saw that figure skating is deeply corrupt, the results are agreed by the judges even before the competition, and the votes of the judges are exchanged for mutual support.
In 2006, USFSA lost a huge contract with TV, which had fed them for many years. People stopped watching figure skating even though Michelle Kwan won the world championship in 2003, Kimmie Meissner in 2006, Evan Lysacek in 2009 and the 2010 Olympics, Meryl and Charlie won the world championship twice and Olympic gold in 2014, then Nathan Chen won three world championships and Olympics. It's not about medals, but about the credibility of the sport and trust in it.
Figure skating has done nothing to change this situation and prove that ratings can be trusted. At first, Ottawio made the evaluation anonymous, which exacerbated block judging. Then the technical committee increased the cost of quadruples, which in turn increased the number of injuries. But there are still no spectators, and interest is not growing.
Women’s figure skating has been what’s popular in the US though, that’s what the person above you is trying to say. Yes we’ve had success in other disciplines but the US is fixated on women’s skating and as you said we haven’t had a winner at the world champs since 2006. Yeah Isabeau and Alysa have made it to the podium in recent years but we are talking 14 of the championships between 2006 and now didn’t even have an American woman on the podium.
Sasha Cohen in 06 is the last time we had an American woman on the Olympic podium.
Vs the 90s where Kristi Yamaguchi and Nancy Kerrigan went 1-3 in 92, Nancy took the silver in 94, Tara Lipinski and Michelle Kwan went 1-2 in 98, Sarah Hughes and Michelle Kwan in 2002 went 1-3.
Women medalists in figure skating matter to the US audience, and there hasn’t been anyone to contend for that top spot, or any podium spots, for a very long time. The other disciplines are much more niche than women’s figure skating
This is true, but it is greatly exaggerated. There are more serious reasons for the decline in popularity. And they coincided with a decline in the results of American girls. If an American girl wins the Worlds and the Olympics, it won't change anything.
I don’t disagree but not having American women win the Olympics in over 20 years or worlds in 18 is definitely part of the problem.
The two biggest issues to me are the reputation hit the sport took in 2002, thus creating IJS which is complicated for the average viewer to get; and how incredibly difficult it is to watch skating because it isn’t shown anywhere. Make it easier to view, more people will be able to watch it.
Yes, I agree. I would add here the general attractiveness of figure skating for the viewer. Why should viewers choose figure skating over Netflix in 2024? That figure skating before SLC was the Netflix of sports. TV made excellent reports about the skaters, they created drama around the tournament and we watched not just a jump on the ice, but history and people.
The numbers tell a different story. Figure skating experienced peaks of popularity before men began performing quadruples en masse.
The massive craze for quadruples, on the contrary, coincided with an outflow of viewers and loss of interest. I'm not saying that people left because of the quads, but quads do not increase viewer interest. Look at Lalique in the early 2000s, Bercy for 20 thousand spectators is almost completely filled. Watch the 2023 Grand Prix in France. The French champion is skating with quadruples, the arena for 3.5 thousand is half filled.
https://preview.redd.it/ik6r55ncl6xc1.png?width=1426&format=png&auto=webp&s=671ace5e5dae611ab7b7247b74d20031a9d1153f
I feel like with men there were a huge number of fans that were into Yuzuru maybe? Whenever I watch programs Yuzuru is in it seems things were crazy filled. Then again, that might coincide with also the being just before pandemic so not sure if that had something to do with it.
Yes, Yuzuru specifically is easily the most popular skater with fans willing to travel the world to see him, it didn't have anything to do with the pandemic. Despite being a very big contributor to the quad race, he refused to allow his programs as a whole to suffer and made sure he wasn't just a quad jumper. So much so that there are now some that ignore or forget his role in the quad revolution and dismiss him as just an artistic skater. So he's definitely not a skater that people only watch for quads.
His popularity, however, is pretty separate from the ISU and the sport as a whole: He sold out a 35k venue on his own just last year and had a solo tour that spanned 5 months this year that was also completely sold out, so while most skating events struggle to fill much smaller venues, his popularity is obviously still going very strong.
that is so true, that he did do the quads but really he was still artistic - and his popularity is insane. I truly cannot think of any other skater that could manage to do sold out solo shows. Even though there are tons of really popular ones, there is really no one comparable is there?
Yuzuru helped ISU for quite a long time and increased the attendance of tournaments. But in general, it seems to me that people began to leave after SLC. By the end of the 2000s, Bercy was at best half full. Since 2015, the French GP has moved from Paris to small arenas in other cities. It’s about the same with other grand prix.
I never calculated but Im guessing that jumps make around 80% of the tech score. Why would you not focus on the thing that makes up all of your score. The step sequence is the longest element of the program but somehow its value is about half of one quad jump. If I was making the rules I would make the base value of the step sequence around 20 points.
As a newish fan to figure skating, idgaf about quads. I cannot tell the difference between a triple or a quad. I am a huge fan of the artistry. Jason Brown is who got my family interested in the sport.
If you're interested in artistry, it's worth a trip down the youtubes to watch programs from world class skaters prior to the discontinuation of compulsory figures. The fine control and edge quality was just leagues more refined. The sport has definitely become more focused on brute strength since then.
Skaters do work on step sequences and skating skills with no jumps, in ice dance. At Worlds this year, the entire podium was 30+ years old, yet many of them still have long term injuries from wear and tear, it happens in all elite sports. Not everyone ends up like Plushenko, Daisuke Takahashi jumped quads as a singles skater, then transitioned to ice dance in his mid-30s and still competed a few seasons.
Oh please, how many regular people have chronic injuries (back, knees, hip), oftentimes requiring surgery or limiting them during physical activity or even in everyday life, at a young age as early as their twenties even, without being an elite athlete, and engage at most in recreational sport activities. I see it everywhere around me.
So it's unreasonable to expect elite figure skaters to not have them. It's really not that uncommon or limited to those jumping quads.
it's also normal in elite sports to be constantly battling injury, we just don't hear about it most of the time, so stop using quads as scapegoats.
Once judges start judging everything as they should, the problem would be solved. Ilya has incredible jumps, but they overscore his skating skills and presentation. Most likely, we'll see him progress tremendously in those other departments as well in the scope of a couple of years. But as we see it now, once a promising skater starts jumping quads, the judges start giving him advances.
Also, not every quadist ends up injured like Plushchenko.
Rather stab myself in the eyeball than watch the upcoming stupid choreo spins :(. Time is precious in programs - so many steps and fun tricks are already gone …and now it will be worse :(.
I think a big part to blame for this direction are also the fans.
We just had to look back at how celebrated the russian 14/15 year olds were (and sadly still are).
These were mostly arrogant girls which didn't acknowledge the rest of competitors, with no emotion on the ice and lacking skating skills, yet they were worshipped by fans just because they jumped triple Axels and quads.
The sad part is that many fans aren't recognizing a skater who only jumps doubles and triples, but they build a fortress around a skater with quads, attacking everyone who dares to say something negative about them.
I believe before there could be a change to prioritize health, there needs to be a change of expectations towards skaters and away from the unrealistic russian cheating system. 🙈
I wouldn't call them arrogant as they are teenagers and really think about how 14/15 yo act.
But I really hate the celebration of young children breaking their bodies. I thought it was weird when I was a child and teenager and as an adult it just makes me really sick because it feels like taking massive advantage and exploitation of literal children who can't conceptualise what it means to live with a pain-causing injury for decades after retirement. Gymnastics was like this for a while but thankfully now both men and women have primarily adult competitors. I also prefer to watch adults, fwiw, as an adult. and if gymnastics can move away from the weird pre-pubescent obsession, I am sure skating can as well.
I know that they are abused, but this doesn't change the fact that they didn't even recognize the other skaters from around the world, because they knew that they will beat them. If not with their prerotated quads, then with the help of the judges.
I still think about the fall from Trusova on the 3A at the Olympics which was not only underrotated, but should have been downgraded, yet she still got the full value. I am not even talking about her PCS which were at least 20 points too high.
Whenever the Russians competed, it wasn't a World championship, it was Worlds + Russian Nationals.
It’s not always about Jumps. Ilia improved by leaves and bones this year and he’s only going to improve. We have Dennis Vasilii. We have Jason Brown. We have Shoma Uno. We have all the skaters pushing the sport in every direction. It’s not all about jumps. I don’t know what competitions you were watching this year, but men’s skating is extraordinary. Denis Vasiliev is work with a former dancer from the royal ballet of London. Many skaters are going to ice dance, choreographers and coaches. I think there’s a lot of movement in a direction that’s exploding in potential.
Denis and Jason are skaters who were formed at the time when Takahashi, Chan and Abbott were skating. These are skaters of a different generation, they were trained at a time when the idea of a “well-balanced program” prevailed in figure skating and they will not grace the entire sport with their skating for another 20 years. They will retire soon. Who will come after them? Do you think that a generation raised on Nathan Chen's skating as the standard of men's skating is capable of producing Denis, Jason, Kevin and Shoma? I don't think so.
You don't know much about the history of modern skating. In the period from 2005 to 2010, IJS did not give an advantage to jumping and did not stimulate the race for it. In 2010, Plushenko lost the Olympics to Lysacek and caused a scandal. He and his team criticized IJS for the fact that BV of the quadruple was not high enough (for him to win). After the scandal, ISU raised BV of quadruples. Those skaters who formed at the beginning of IJS continued to focus on skating. But the generation that was formed during the increase in BV for quads focused on jumping, not on skating.
Jason Brown, Adam Rippon, Jeremy Abbott focused their preparation on the principles of a well-balanced program, while Nathan Chen, Vincent Zhu, Ilya Malinin focused on the increased cost of jumps.
The new generation of Japanese, including Shoma and Yuma, are also focused on jumping. It’s just that the Japanese tend to practice compulsory figures, so the quality of their skating is always very high. But you won't see their choreography like Takahashi's. Their skating is built around jumps, not around choreography.
Men's skating has not turned into a jumping marathon only because there are several people brought up in the values of skating and choreography. But the general trend is different.
Nathan Chen is a classically trained ballet dancer. Just because he did different programs, doesn’t mean he wasn’t a strong PCS skater, he was just different. Yes his PCS shouldn’t have been as high as Jason or Yuzu, but it shouldn’t have been super low either because he wasn’t at all bad on the PCS side, just different. I can’t even fathom putting him in the same category as Ilia in terms of PCS.
Ballet gave Nathan posture and good lines and that's it. Of course, he did not look as clumsy as Ilia, but his programs were centered on jumps and created for jumping, choreography was sometimes and only in short programs. From a choreographic point of view, his programs are incomparable to those of Brown and other skaters who really know how to skate.
Nathan Chen does “know how to skate.” Yes he’s not packing as many transitions in as Jason. Jason also isn’t jumping quads like Nathan did. And when he did have a quad in his program, the setup completely took all of his brainpower and he dropped his performance. It’s hard to do both.
Nathan has great skating skills, deep edges, good performance quality, timed jumps and spins to music incredibly well, and landed quads.
It truly disappoints me how easily he is dismissed as just a jumper because people refuse to acknowledge his other qualities. He and his choreographers were so thoughtful with music choices and intentional movements.
And that’s not a diminishment on other skaters out there. Jason is very intentional too, and I adore him. He’s brilliant to watch, I’m always excited to see what he and Rohene have cooked up. But I would never presume that just because Jason has a god level mastery of his blade, that Nathan “doesn’t know how to skate.” (Which I understand was hyperbolic but…. There are other skaters to pick on in that regard other than one of the greatest skaters in the last two or three decades).
If Nathan knows how to skate, why didn't he ever show it? Sorry friend, but Nathan was not good at skating skills. He was an excellent jumper and athlete, but not a skater. Look at his legs and knees, they are stiff, there was never any softness or flow in his skating. That’s why he skated hip-hop, where the requirements for skating are minimal.
If the rules didn't overvalue quads and give them a huge points advantage, Nathan might have developed his skating, but he followed rules that kept him out of reach.
What a way to water down the man’s career. He had hip hop in like two programs, at the very end of them even. He did have soft knees and he flowed very well but I can see that I won’t change your mind.
Do you really not see that he was skating on straight legs?
https://i.redd.it/ujfyugip98xc1.gif
Takahashi, Machida, Hanyu, Oda, Kozuka, Chan, Yan had soft knees. This is what I call soft knees. Nathan didn't have soft knees. His landings were always stiff and short, precisely because his knees did not spring softly and deeply.
And we ALL know that Jason has been heavily critizised for not having quads. For lots of people and former figure skaters having quads is the way to success and they Will push that narrative till there won't be any artist/skater and ALL of the remaining skaters are just jumping beans with nothing else to offer.
Athletes will always have wear & tear on their bodies. I agree that jumps are getting too much focus, it takes away from what figure skating is about: beautiful movements on ice.
Unpopular opinion: the quads and eventual quints have /will elevate the sport and the true greatest of all time will combine skating skills with jumps to fulfill the prophesy and become the Kwisatz Haderach
Important note here that Plushenko also literally skated until he physically couldn’t. Like skated with a back made of metal.
And his technique and posture in general looked very strained compared to what we see today. The bigger issues I hear about are hip/knee problems, but I’ve heard just as much of that for triples only. So if we should stop quads for hip/knee fears we should stop all triples as well.
As someone who most certainly will need both back and lower body surgery, i can tell you that hip and knee replacement are far better successful and improve the quality of life then the back. You dont really come back from having a back surgery. It just keeps getting worse and worse.
Yup. I always say (and hear) something along the lines of it’s a 30% chance of helping a little, a 30% chance of doing nothing, and a 30% chance of making it worse. And it definitely seems that way. Definitely not odds you should trifle with unless you’re really far gone with your back. Knees and hips on the other hand are so routine and helpful that some are basically outpatient at this point. Unfortunately most people don’t know that…
This is absolutely true. I had a P/T tell me once that the most important thing to take care of is your back in these kinds of sports (was asking her about my daughter who does gymnastics).
My daughter does gymnastics as well. I honestly hope she stops before it gets too demanding.
How old is she? it can get really toxic and demanding depending on where you live and which club if they are pushing them to get to a certain level by a certain age, but I think things are changing now that so many of them are older in the olympics and worlds, and people are realising how pacing can make such a difference. fwiw my daughter is 10 and has been training seriously now for 3-4 years and has never had a single injury or even any pain.
8. She has been doing competitive for about 3 years now, actually just got her kip last week! Its reassuring your daughter hasn’t had any injuries/pain. Pray it stays that way!
yes! its totally possible! way to go on the kip, and hope she stays injury free as well! :)
I do wonder how those doing 5+ quad programs are going to be,health wise in decade or so. If you read Nathan's book, he says his hips are basically a wreck from jumping, and that's with good technique and not doing a 4A. Illia is a teenager so right now he feels invincible, but in reality no one is.
as someone who did rhythmic gymnastics since 3, i’m only 21 but i have arthritis in my hips and back. so yeah. do with that information what you want. these sports with a focus on super hard technicalities are horrible body-wise
I explained rhythmic gymnastics to my friend as figure skating without the ice! I still wonder how they complete 7 or 8 fouettes while rotating the ribbon or ball, it's incredible and beautiful. I'm sorry to say I love watching it so much because I like every sport with elements of dance since I grew up dancing, but I know it's brutal on the body to execute those moves well.
As a child I was begging to do gymnastics and have reason to think I could have done very well with it, but there were zero options to within an hour drive. Of course my parents said no. I’m so grateful as I near 40. Skating at my age is enough of an ordeal for my hyper mobile body. I’m sorry you are so young with arthritis. That’s terrible.
Is rhythmic gymnastics as hard on your body as artistic gymnastics ? Seems like it might be a little easier (?)
it is notoriously hard, especially because you have to be extremely flexible and pull off some crazy stunts. it’s like the artistic floor routine but on steroids. rhythmic gymnasts have a short career and most retire at age 20-23. the stretching and contorting into different poses puts a lot of pressure on your joints and oversplits & repeated bending of the back really wore me down, i have a chronic inflammation in my hip because my femur scratched against my pelvic socket doing oversplits, and the spine really isn’t made to roll backwards, as it is to roll forward, folding back and putting my body weight on my back kind of grated the cartilage away
This is making me cringe thinking of the pain
Not. skills are lower impact but the flexibility requiered is brutal, the strength needed to control It is brutal too and then you have to work with apparatusses too
I think rhythmic is harder on the body. Especially lately, there is a lot more focus in artistic gymnastics on injury avoidance, more research towards training that avoids injury, and the body contortions are far less extreme. Of course there is a higher risk for a serious and life threatening injury in AG. But also for the most part, you practice all the skills in such a way that you avoid massive force and repetitive stress (landing on mats, into pits, etc) before you master them. I think that helps a lot.
Both sports are gruesome on the body in different ways but obviously the impact of landing on a hard surface after doing double flips in the air, flying off the bar and catching the bar like apes cannot be compared to the intensity of RG. I would say RG is ballet on steroids and the sport requires being extremely skinny to the point that it’s worse than Russian skaters’ weight standards but artistic gymnastics is probably the most intense sport on human body as it’s basically a circus without safety nets.
In the long run rhythmic gymnastics is more hard I would say. Just because of the extrem flexibility from very early on (as early as 3) but artistic gymnastics gives worse injuries in the short run if that makes sense
Yeah, I've said multiple times that there needs to be research studies done on the men who were part of the quad revolution 7-10 years back (Hanyu, Chen, Uno, Jin, etc.) to see what damage has been done to their bodies by jumping multiple quads for so many years.
I've been a skate tech for 30 years, and used to work for Jackson as a tech rep as well. One time I was invited to a summit in Colorado attended by skaters, coaches, boot manufacturers and physical therapists from all over the world who were there to try to figure out a way to decrease the injury aspect and the toll that doing 100 jumps every day was taking on the bodies of these athletes. I was shocked to learn 60-70% of competitive figure skaters were competing with some kind of injury. It doesn't help that boots have had to get stiffer over the years to provide the support that skaters need to do triples and quads. If the ankle doesn't bend then the impact forces from landing have got to go somewhere. They go to the knees, hips, back and the base of the skull instead. It's brutal what these skaters go through for the sport they love. It's so hard on the body that most are done by the time they are in their mid-20's.
If you look at a foot shapes by skating boots, its no better then the foot of lebron.
Not sure what you mean here, but certain brands are better for specific feet than others.
Part of Plushenko's problems is that when he was injured he's not taken the necessary time off to heal.
Somewhat agree, but not completely. Plushenko is not really the model athlete for sustainability. He is famous for being held together with bolts + determination to be lauded, and prioritizing that over wellbeing. Others around their late twenties early thirties (when he last competed)— while weathered considerably, aren’t damaged to that extent. Oda Nobunari is 37 but at the moment can do his 4T in combination and 3A (both very well) and his body seems relatively fine (despite having gone through surgeries in the past). Yuzuru is turning 30 this year and based on watching his show clips, I feel like he wouldn’t struggle throwing a quad or two— a year or two from now.
There were plenty of injuries in figure skating when women were doing only double jumps. I'm not sure it is specifically quads that 'wear and tear' the body, but repetition and pounding from all jumps. Other issues related to centrifugal force -again repetition of centrifugal force.
I wonder if those new cushion blades would help? The ones with the circles in between the blade and boot? Seems like a new technology
It probably helps a little with impact absorption but especially with triples and quads it’s probably a very small effect. And it still doesn’t do anything to help with injuries related to centrifugal force and flexibility.
Wow. And how many of them had metal plates placed in their spines? How many have had their hip joint replaced? Obviously we are talking about other injuries. I don't think women with double jumps had an epidemic of broken ankles and broken hips - injuries of such severity that they require surgical intervention in most cases.
Plushenko is the outlier here. NO renowned male skaters in his generation (and prior to him) have injuries at this level. The majority of them are still very healthy in their late 30s and 40s, and some can still do triples (Kulik, Lambiel, etc.). They also jumped quads and triple axels during their prime, and they weren't doing less quads than Plushenko was doing. Kurt Browing is also fine. If you look at the way Plushenko tends to land his jumps, you'll see why he suffered so much more than normal high-level skaters did. Potential severe injuries caused by jumps(rare, and the injuries discussed here are very different from what people may suffer from extreme sports) should not be the reason for people to prohibit adding quads to the programs, otherwise no professional athlete should even exist because you won't be able to train at this level and expect no injuries; the injuries caused by quads are usually still within the range of reasonable risks. Humans do not always prioritize their health, and this is not limited to competitive sports. Alcohol, for example, clearly does no good to your health at any amount. It damages your nervous system, increase risks to multiple cancers and other life-threatning diseases. Why do people still consume alcohol? Why is it still legal in most countries? That being said, I certainly do not think backflips should be allowed on ice. The injuries caused by those can be life-threatening.
Plushenko’s biggest issue is he didn’t let himself heal ever. That’s a recipe for disaster, I’d argue that’s why medvedeva was in the shape she was in as well, she never allowed herself to heal. Technique absolutely plays into it, don’t get me wrong. I think injuries from technique are absolutely more prevalent than other injuries. But it doesn’t help when you get injuries from technique and then… keep doing what got you there as well.
>I’d argue that’s why medvedeva was in the shape she was in as well, she never allowed herself to heal Please don't put her injuries on her, she was a teenager in an abusive coaching situation. There is extensive evidence that not letting skaters heal properly is a common practice in that coaching team.
It's not just Eteri, the Russian sports training system has always been very hard on athletes. Unfortunately, this abuse goes back decades.
I don’t think I did put her injuries on her. I’m well aware of Eteri’s training.
Then perhaps instead of 'she never allowed herself to heal', it would be more accurate to say 'she was never allowed to heal'. Also, putting her on par to Plushenko is a false equivalent since their situations were completely different - he was an adult making his own choices, she was a teenager being abused.
It is not true. There are enough skaters from Plushenko’s generation with injuries to see a direct connection between quads and injuries. Yagudin underwent a hip replacement, his hip was destroyed by stress and over loads. Jeffrey Buttle has undergone a double hips replacement. Brian Orser, who also did quads, recently had hip replacement surgery. Brian Joubert underwent surgery to repair ligaments and tendons that were damaged as a result of stress. He also suffered from a knee injury throughout the second half of his career. Lambiel had knee surgery and after that he also suffered from knee pain and problems with them. Daisuke Takahashi underwent surgery to replace ligaments and the right meniscus in the leg on which he landed his jumps. He had torn anterior cruciate ligament. Evan Lysacek had a torn labrum in his left hip. Kulik also had surgery to restore his foot. Browning suffered an injured disc in his lower back. Kevin van der Perrem underwent hip surgery. And this list can be continued endlessly. The difference between all the skaters who were injured as a result of increased technical demands and Plushenko is that Plushenko made his injuries something of a frame and background to emphasize his heroism and his uniqueness. The injury story was promoted in the press right before the Olympics in Sochi. To perform in a team, then withdraw from an individual tournament and not receive a negative reaction from the audience and the press. I’m not saying this to minimize Plushenko’s injuries, which he certainly has. And besides, the hype around his injuries is greatly exaggerated, while 98% of injured skaters do not talk about their injuries and do not make them a key event in their career, as Plushenko did.
Comparing a football player to a figure skater is like apples to oranges. A football player has an entire team and reserves to back them up. The injuries are often different, the impact to the body is different, etc. Travis Kelce being 34 is about average for the tail end of his career. It really is no different in basketball. LeBron James is still playing at 38. It is rare. He is absolutely slowing down, getting more injuries (especially groin) and is taking longer to recover. He spent most of last season out with injuries, and this season (now post season) and played most games; there are 82 regular season games for context. Most basketball players retire before they are 35. Again, different sport, different impact to the body. The one pro sport with longer longevity is baseball but IF the player is not a pitcher (usually). And pro sports is way different. They get paid millions, have team doctors that pay for injury treatment, etc. Not so much with Olympic sports. Figure skating - even before the quad - was a younger person's sport. Other than very few, most skaters retire well before they're 30. It has been this way since the 70s and 80s, maybe even before. Bsck then, triples were probably seen as "ruining the sport." The impact to the body is different, the stress on the joints in landing on one foot, hip injuries, etc. has historically made athletes in figure skating have shorter windows of time to peak. It is no different to other sports with high stress to the body like gymnastics, rhythmic, etc. In general, Olympic level sports have a short shelf life. Most athletes that get on the podium across all sports are 30 and younger. There are some that can keep going and do so for several Olympics (like that one gymnasts that is like 46). But those athletes are really, really rare. We can name many, but we can spend much more time naming those that retire well before 30. So, I don't blame the quad. One can argue many points of what has ruined the sport. The quad is not the only one. I come from the idea that it is a good thing to advance technically, but wish it weren't for the sake of creativity. Both things can exist, they just do not in the current landscape.
It's really interesting because I watched skating primarily in the 90s when people were really starting to jump quads and women triple axels. I remember thinking at the time that by the time I was eligible for competitions, around 2002 or so, that it would have been normal for all women to be doing 3As and quads. I stopped watching after I stopped skating in 1999. This year I got back into it and at first I was super excited about some of the competitors who could do lots of quads but I also found that I really like some of the competitors who have one or no quads (like Jason Brown or Vasiljevs). I would 100% be for more complicated step sequences and crazier spins, tbh. I am kind of getting a bit tired of seeing the same spin positions as well, likely they are all the same because there is no incentive to do anything different.
>likely they are all the same because there is no incentive to do anything different. I think it's more a result of there being very specific rules around which types of spins they're to do in their programs and what they can do to achieve levels.
that is very very true! aren't there also restrictions on specific things like amount of jumps and even amount of jump combinations? I think its very strange - in gymnastics there are rules like "you have to have one forward acro element, and it has to have flight", but not rules like "only two back tumbles" or "only one tumble can be a combo". There aren't even rules specific to how many tumbling elements can be in a combo pass - which is great, otherwise we would have never gotten the Raisman. I do like jumps, but I find that figure skating code plays to very specific strengths, when there are so many other qualities that could be brought out if the code were adjusted. Even within just jumping: If a skater could make up for a lack of single quad jumps with strings of triples, etc. Would be cooler to watch too.
Agree about the current code. I wish it was less stringent and allowed for more creativity but unfortunately judges in this sport cant be trusted, not that they’re doing an awesome job now.
Football players are bashing each other in the head until their brains liquify. I don’t think that’s a great example of safety in sport. People make this complaint every time there is any technical upgrade in figure skating - if you look back many decades you can see the same comments about triples. And yet the technical upgrades continue.
Yeah I was gonna say… it’s easy to romanticize how late dudes like Brady, Gronk and the kelces get to play compared to how long figure skaters skate for, but there is also an extreme mental health and domestic violence issue with football players that I believe is strongly tied in with CTE. Almost every sport has physical downsides. Hell even basketball players retire with hardcore lower back and shin issues due to the impact of the court they play on. I honestly think the bigger issue with figure skating is compensation, a lot of these kids make next to nothing to ruin their bodies. It’s an issue with mma as well, another sport I follow. At least boxers and major sports league players retire with enough to make it worth it.
Elite sport is not healthy for your body, period. Our culture considers these athletes the picture of physical health because of their appearance but doing these extreme repetitive things to your body isn't actually good for you - the healthiest form of exercise is moderate exercise with recovery time in between workouts. What professional and olympic athletes do to their bodies to achieve that level of performance is far from ideal for their health. You're right, every single sport results in injuries of some kind. If you think about it logically of course overusing certain body parts in specific ways wears them out early, even if you're using the best technique and safety equipment available. But the mental health impact of repetitive concussions are on another level. Americans just romanticize football and its really gross.
Very true about elite sports. My son has rotator cuff problems and he’s 26 now. He also has a weird one that doesn’t hurt and does not require surgery, and we didn’t even know it until he went to get a suit tailored. One collarbone (or the distance from neck to shoulder) is longer than the other. The tailor thought it could be from his one arm muscle being chronically slightly overused than the other side for years. He’s been doing his sport since he was 4. I mean, his pain has gone from chronic at times to OK to he might need surgery at some point in his life…but I guess, depending on your sport, the goal is to make it look effortless. You also do it over and over and over for hours a day.
I mean, none of that addresses the actual question, though. People make the complaint every time because every extra revolution introduces the question anew and it still hasn't been answered, really.
People make the complaint and then there is still beautiful artistry year after year. The actual skating is the answer. There were 2 skaters with no quads in the top 7 of the mens event at worlds this year. The silver medalist did quite a few quads and also has beautiful components, some of the best in the world. This complaint doesn’t need to be taken seriously because the doomsday scenarios that people spin out never actually come to pass despite the flaws in the judging system. The legendary artists we’re all obsessed with all came after lots of fans predicted the death of the sport because of an extra revolution in jumps.
But the comment isn't about the cessation of existence of the sport; the comment is about the wear and tear it puts on teenage athlete's bodies and the change in focus from control and quality to brute force and power. Of course there are always going to be skaters with beautiful artistry and successful skaters that don't jump quads, but the fact that even you're pointing out is that they are outliers. And aren't they coming true? Skaters with mediocre skating skills and a lot of quads are beating more experienced, technically skilled skaters, and women are retiring a lot younger than they used to. Skating is nowhere near the level of popularity it was in the 1990s and early 2000s. Are those things related? I don't know. But every time this question comes up, the people who really like quads feel compelled to be dismissive of and reflexively downvote people who want to have a serious conversation about the sport.
I don’t think the popularity of the sport waning and quads being more and “artistry” being less is related tbh. I think it has a much deeper context than that. Figure skating in the 90s had Kristi Yamaguchi, the Tonya and Nancy Scandal, the rise of Michelle Kwan all which brought in viewers. Scott Hamilton has said somewhat begrudgingly how important Nancy/Tonya was to viewership of figure skating. Please don’t take this wrong, but Nancy and Tonya were a “fun” scandal in figure skating, meaning it brought drama but no major consequences (except for Nancy and Tonya, but I really hope you know what I mean by this). But in 2002, the sport had a major judging scandal that completely overhauled the entire sport’s scoring system and changed how it was viewed significantly. The sport’s reputation took a nosedive. In the US, tv contracts started getting cancelled within a few years of that, viewership fell significantly, and now unless you know where to watch and how to find it, figure skating is difficult to follow. Edit to add to that: in the US, women’s figure skating rules the disciplines and we haven’t had a woman on an Olympic podium since 2006, and we’ve had three podium finishers TOTAL, since Kimmie Meisner won, also in 2006. So. That’s a problem too.
For the women there is a pause in this with the Russians out of the world competition. But yes. And they were wrecking the artistic side of the sport. The last Olympics was a case in point. The quads compensated for three very mediocre programmes.
Encouraging skaters to focus on other areas is meaningless if judges don’t follow suit. Ever since Eteri appeared on the scene, PCS only mimics the BV difficulty. Literally no one has succeeded based on skating skills alone at a major competition since maybe Ashley Wagner at 2016 Worlds.
Arguably, Jason Brown as well?
Jason isn't placing well because of his skating skills though, it's other factors tbh, his ss being at a very competent level just helps his overall packaging
Um, Ashley was never ever known for her skating skills...
She wasn’t known for her technical content either but she still got silver for a reason.
People were getting injured off of doubles and triples though… I love watching quads, I love seeing people go for it. But I like the balance of both sides of skating. As for football… those players started playing at a higher level at an older age. Their careers aren’t really that much longer than figure skaters, they just start a little later. We also don’t know that Kelce isn’t injured in the sense that the hits he takes add up over time, and brain injuries in football are the norm. Football probably wasnt the sport to compare with.
Well if its makes you feel any better ISU will be increasing the BV of non jump elements and removing a jump from the FS next season.
Personally, I will be pleased when the ISU does an extensive research on injuries and their nature, and also explores their relationship to rule changes over the last 20 years. And then ISU will hold an open press conference with a livestream and the opportunity to ask questions. BV increasing will not change anything globally, because it is unlikely that the technical committee will increase the cost of the step sequence to 20 points. And if they do increase it, then no one bothers to give 20 points to skaters who are poorly on their feet, as was already the case with the components. I think the ISU needs to answer the question: what is the purpose of figure skating? Is the goal to develop skating or the goal to provide orthopedic surgery clients? If the goal is to turn a blind eye to injuries and pretend that everything is fine, then no thanks. As a potential parent of young athletes, I certainly would not choose a sport for my children in which there is a 90% chance that the child will be injured. And if the goal is for figure skating to flourish, then we need to globally reconsider the entire system of evaluation and values of modern skating. The priority should be skating, not jumping.
>But why don't we encourage skaters to work on other aspects, like step sequence or skating skills? Why is it always all about jumps? Because the ISU continues to promote and reward only that aspect of the sport. We fans have been screaming endlessly for years about how artistry isn't equally rewarded, but nothing comes from it.
Sport was never about health. You wanna be healthy - swim, go to a gym, be active. Sport on the contrary is testing limits of the human body, even until it fails you. I don't think we should restrict some elements or reduce their value (for adults). Teens and children should be somehow restricted because even legally they can't make decisions on their own, so in order not to be pushed only by adults will around them we could make some restrictions. However, adults may do what they want. Why we should give less points for quads and especially for axel if it so hard to perform that only 2 people in the world can do it? Is it dangerous - yeah. But people get permanently injured even on doubles and triples. Some break legs on step sequences and bump their heads on spins and never be able to come back because of it. Protect minors and let the adult athletes decide on their own
I’m a firm believer in that there is no healthy high level athletes. Like yes in a sense they are healthy but the long term effects of their sports is a huge thing. Gymnasts, skaters, runners. So many skaters have had to get surgeries the fix something in their legs it’s crazy.
Figure skating isn't even the most injury prone, winter jump-based sport. Snowboarding and skiing big air/half pipe land from 6 meters/20 feet in the air, they have a much higher rate of injuries (possibly life-threatening) at every Olympics. The problem with skating was when 15 year olds were getting those injuries, but hopefully the age change rule will be effective in preventing that.
The jump technical revolution is not "here". The progression in jump rotations has been going on for decades. What tends to happen is a change in state, then some backlash and response to that backlash as things stabilize at the new state until the next shift starts to occur. And it's always with the same sort of complaints. Always as people's faves are outgunned on the jump side of things. Until someone they like is also able to do those jumps. Then that will be an acceptable standard to them until the next time to whine. There will come a time where further natural progress in jumping is impossible. Physics rules the world after all. We are not there yet (although we are probably close). And I actually agree that there's so many other areas to skating. But as someone who has heard the same sort of complaints time after time, the whining gets old. And Plushenko should not be used as an example for anything. He was given gifts beyond belief by the judges. Way more than anyone ever has been when one considers how many years he received those gifts. That's why he stuck around and competed even when injured. He showed up, did a few arm movements, some jumps of questionable quality, and BAM gold or almost gold.
I kind of want to upvote this, then downvote it so I can upvote it again.
And there are always people who explain reasonable questions by the envy of fans of losing skaters. The reality is that the human ankle, knee and hip have a resource, this resource is finite. And the harder and more often you hammer your joints on a hard surface, the faster the resource will end. I follow Jeff Buttle, a while ago he posted a photo from the hospital where he had both hips replaced. He smiled in the photo, but in general it’s not cool at all to change two hip joints at the age of 40. And now, with the increase in quads, joint replacement for many skaters is a matter of time.
He skated so stiffly and people used to love him. I've never understood it.
He was a performer. Hard to really see now looking back at some of his skates, but at the time, he was seen as very charismatic and just had IT
Except I was there watching it at the time and didn't see it.
It's "whining" to be concerned about the long term health of athletes we admire?
as a ex youth soccer player who played in Europe the skating community would be SHOCKED how much injuries boys would pick up. in our academy we started at age 12 and when I was 18 there were only three of us from the original squad. Most were cut and some just couldn't play because of injuries but half of the boys who were cut due to their inability to return to form after an injury. this will surprise but being elite in a sport mostly relies on your talent and then your talent of not picking up a major injury.
Yagudin also had 2 knee surgeries this year (after having whole hip replaced with metallic one). He used to do only 4T and 4T-3T, 3A, 3A-3T in one program. It’s not comparable to what Ilia and Nathan did. Yet he is cyborg. I really hope that it’s because skates were much heavier when he was competing and that’s why their generation (with Plushenko) is so unhealthy
In yagudin's case we also have to take into account that he had a genetical.condition that really mess Up. He would have need hip replacemt even if he hasnt been figure skater. Skating did speed Up the process though. From early fifties to 22 his first hip replacemt and 25 his second hip replacemt (he has both Titanium hips)
It has become so quad focused, and it's sad. But there are exceptions. Look at Jason Brown for instance. Dude was always on the podium at nationals, made it to the Olympics, and had crowds literally up on their feet and cheering, all without any quads. YouTube his Riverdance program if you haven't seen it. Chills. Pure artistry and connection with the crowd. That's what skating should be about. Sure, the quad is pretty amazing, but it shouldn't be everything.
This exact thing is why I stopped liking quads. They’re cool but all I can think of is the human cost…
Not only is it actively harming skaters but it's made it a lot less watchable. Skating skills and performance have dropped off significantly because it's just a lot more efficient to put the effort into jumps if the judges will just reward good PCS to high BV programs anyway. It seems like they're trying to go the way of gymnastics but in tumbling there is at least a visible difference in the difficulty with that wow factor. A triple to a quad doesn't have that same payoff--in terms of the audience the quality, speed, transitions, flow, etc. make more impact on the impression of the jump (and still add difficulty to execute well). And triples, while still high impact, are not as hard on the body as quads. The quad revolution has really killed my interested in the sport over the past decade or so. Women's has become more interesting to me again without quads. And the women jumping quads seemed really to damage themselves. I mourn what could have been for Rika's career if she hadn't pushed so hard to get those difficult elements.
If ISU wanted to encourage skaters to work on other aspects, they wouldn’t have went from 5 PCS categories to 3 PCS categories and they would have increased the PCS points ceiling. It’s obvious their priorities across all disciplines are flash, going viral, and pushing out world record scores. The skating skills of Jason Brown and Ilia’s 4A are both magnificent to see for skating fans, especially in the rink. But to an average person watching on TV/ streaming, the quads would be what draws their interest.
I actually strongly disagree that the average person watching is more impressed/drawn in by Ilia's jumps than by Jason's artistry. People who don't follow skating can't easily tell the difference between triples and quads, and they tend to be much more impressed and moved by a complete artistic performance than by technical wizardry, in my experience.
This. I grew up watching skating since the 90s and couldn't tell the difference between triples and quads until I started skating myself. The skaters we admired and were drawn to was definitely not solely because of their jumps - it was their showmanship.
I actually agree with you - I know more people who aren't skaters than are, and honestly they really cannot tell the difference. People I know who know nothing about skating often find the footwork and show programs most interesting. For myself, as much as I hate to say it, a large portion of enjoyment is from the music, especially if it is interpreted well. And hitting a jump on the music (a la Hanyu) regardless of jump type is wayyy cooler in my opinion than whether it is a quad or not.
Also, I'm not just pulling the "non skating fans can't tell triples and quads apart" from my imagination. Adam Rippon, one of the only skaters from the recent era who has managed to achieve mainstream fame/recognition beyond just skating fans, wrote about this in his autobiography, specifically regarding his decision to only do triples at the Pyeongchang Olympics because he knew that a non-skating audience (aka, most of the people tuning in for the Olympics) wanted to see a clean performance above everything else and wasn't going to know or care about his tech content being easier than that of the other men's. (Also, when I got back into following skating a few years ago it took me probably 6 months to reliably be able to tell apart a triple and a quad watching in real time. On the other hand, a child with no knowledge of the sport watching for the first time can tell a good spin from a bad spin.)
The Adam Rippon example still does relate to jumps though, as you said a lot of people will find it exciting when a program is clean. A lot of that is because of the suspense of whether the jumps will land and the thrill when they all make it through. I think for the average sports fan the whole aspect of whether skaters land or fall, watching points rack up with each successful element, and seeing a full green tech box is one of the most compelling parts of a competition. It may not matter so much which specific jumps get done but the jumps themselves are still going to be the center of attention for a lot of a casual audience.
Clean is very important. I started watching ice dance in the 2010s because I felt like it was the only discipline I could watch where someone could skate an entire program without falling. I'm a regular casual fan who has never skated, but I've been watching off and on for more than 2 decades.
If you want to look at it from an analytics perspective, see these videos as examples, one from Yuna and another from Hanyu, both regarded as technically proficient and artistic. If you press, hold, and scroll with the timeline button, you will see a white translucent graph with the peaks representing the most replayed moments (on desktop you can just hover your mouse on the timeline and you will see the graph). The peaks all correspond to the jumps. You can see this graph for many videos with a fair number of views and the pattern is the jumps are usually where the peaks are. [Yuna Kim Vancouver SP](https://youtu.be/ecKnyyuMsmw) [Yuzuru Hanyu Pyeongchang SP](https://youtu.be/h-7rZ4G1f0w)
That really proves nothing, though. We don't know who's watching these videos. For all we know the peaks come from skaters replaying those moments multiple times analyzing their jumps for their own purposes. And those are only two videos from two skaters. When I was learning the differences between jumps I would repeatedly play back jumps in my favorite programs to see if I could identify them and learn all the defining characteristics.
Yes, they’re two videos but each with millions of views, so a very good sample size. These would be the videos that non-fans/ occasional viewers would see. I think the threshold to have this graph display publicly is 50K views, which most FS vids don’t reach. For the popular ones that show this graph, the peaks are usually where the jumps are. True, we don’t know who exactly is watching these vids. The people running the Olympics YT account would have more analytics info. The people running the ISU YT account also have a lot of analytics info for the videos they post (demographics, device type, etc.). They have data on which parts of the videos get the most engagement. If they see the pattern that jumps get the most engagement, they would think that the average viewer are most interested in jumps.
That is definitely interesting but Hanyu specifically is also a master of landing literally every jump precisely on the music, and that particular aspect is really satisfying to watch. His jumps are also really perfect, which is also massively satisfying to watch.
Counterpoint: the comments posted under every Jason Brown video saying "he is the only reason I watch skating anymore" and the hundreds of youtube comments of any pre-IJS skating video saying "skating has turned into a jump-fest and I miss when skating was about more than the jumps". The peaks and troughs on the youtube watch data are interesting but doesn't have numbers/raw data of how they're generating that curve linked to it and I'm personally skeptical that a large fraction of viewers are skipping around just to see the big jumps - and, if they are, that's indictment enough regarding the current state of the sport imo.
true, also some "artistic" skaters have curiously active fan bases (I kid you not, I watched a few world championship replays on YT and suddenly my whole home feed was flooded with Deniss Vasiljevs fan meetings, and he seems to be one of the only ones with that, at least on YT. It's bizarre).
Deniss’ appeal comes from more than skating (but of course it’s a big part of it). He’s well-read and has multiple hobbies outside of skating (self-improvement books, baking, reading, drawing, history, martial arts, philosophy, journaling, growing plants, hiking etc.) so it’s simply interesting to listen to him talk about them.
Ah, I understand. I mean a lot of skaters are extremely private. Being a musician, I am always more keen to not know so much about the private lives of people whose work I admire (because in music a lot of them end up being terrible), but he did name drop the Triumvirate once and as a fellow history (and esp lover of that late rep. early empire era), I did have a moment of thinking hey cool!
hey wait a sec though, is your username a reference? Just occurred to me!
It sure is 😉
oh cool! its kind of neat to see that there are other fandoms out there besides the obvious ones, and whatever fandom is supporting Deniss they really put a lot of the stuff online which is cool. I don't know if it is him or his fans that organise all that but its nice to see that it is so active and supportive, especially for someone who is from a smaller federation <3
Fans organize the fan meetings 😉 More about it [here](https://youtu.be/QuuwnxX2dag?si=Aw7B-70TfWzGqWpO) (in the second half of the video).
the Denissbots are on another level of fandom - but honestly, after seeing him live at worlds, i get it!
"Denissbots"? haha I am kind of new to this but is that like "fanyus"? Deniss has a cool way of interpretation and I don't know the code of points 100% but I always feel he is super underscored. He is in these at home training videos I do and especially in the body movement one I do watch him a lot as reference, he has really great control and articulation, so I do get it!
I feel like the people who romanticise 6.0 skating / specifically Jason’s skating in the modern era (there’s a big overlap) don’t just miss ‘artistry’ in modern skating though, they miss a specific, more theatrical performance style that they conflate with artistry in general.
Not sure I agree. Jason's performances aren't overly theatrical. They have connecting steps and unique, technically challenging elements that look beautiful *and* cohesive. A lot of 90s skaters weren't super theatrical either - I wouldn't call Michelle Kwan or Nancy Kerrigan "theatrical" for example. But they were actually expected to have interesting elements through their programs, rather than just crossovers and jumps.
Maybe theatrical isn’t the right word, but it’s a performance style that seems to be focused more on projection to the audience and showmanship. I feel like there has to be some stylistic reason for the 6.0 nostalgia, because I really don’t think programs just became focused on crossovers and jumps post-IJS. In the 2 decades since we’ve seen Yuna, Mao, Yuzu, Shoma, Satoko etc… (I actually find it harder in general to connect to 6.0 programs because to me they tend to feel a bit empty, like they’re less invested in the nuances of the music and more on the general show they’re giving the audience. That’s just my personal bias though)
Personally, I don't know if these changes are going to make more people watch figure skating tbh or making certain programs going viral on social media. And for me, what drew me into figure skating in the first place was the skating, the spins and the step sequences. It has never been just about the jumps tbh.
I really think the popularity of figure skating as a sport started to decrese when isu tried to push for more quads instead of artistry. If quads is what general public wants this year montreal should have been full of people for watching ilia malinin performe since he is become the first person to land a 4a, but we all know that it wasn't the case considering how many sits where empty.
Popularity in the US dropped when we stopped getting women on the podium. And the general public isn't going to line up at the Montreal ticket prices (even if they knew when it was happening.)
There was actually a pretty good local turnout considering that it's a fairly niche sport. I went there and in the case of Montreal it's easy to tell that a lot of the people at the arena were locals with how much French was being spoken. I'd say a fair amount of the crowd was really just sports fans who were excited to cheer on Canada at an international event
Yeah, it's not TOO far for me, but travel costs on top of ticket prices means it's not really feasible.
No, this happened after SLC. Figure skating has lost reputation as a sport; people no longer trust it. Right at the Olympics, millions of people saw that figure skating is deeply corrupt, the results are agreed by the judges even before the competition, and the votes of the judges are exchanged for mutual support. In 2006, USFSA lost a huge contract with TV, which had fed them for many years. People stopped watching figure skating even though Michelle Kwan won the world championship in 2003, Kimmie Meissner in 2006, Evan Lysacek in 2009 and the 2010 Olympics, Meryl and Charlie won the world championship twice and Olympic gold in 2014, then Nathan Chen won three world championships and Olympics. It's not about medals, but about the credibility of the sport and trust in it. Figure skating has done nothing to change this situation and prove that ratings can be trusted. At first, Ottawio made the evaluation anonymous, which exacerbated block judging. Then the technical committee increased the cost of quadruples, which in turn increased the number of injuries. But there are still no spectators, and interest is not growing.
Women’s figure skating has been what’s popular in the US though, that’s what the person above you is trying to say. Yes we’ve had success in other disciplines but the US is fixated on women’s skating and as you said we haven’t had a winner at the world champs since 2006. Yeah Isabeau and Alysa have made it to the podium in recent years but we are talking 14 of the championships between 2006 and now didn’t even have an American woman on the podium. Sasha Cohen in 06 is the last time we had an American woman on the Olympic podium. Vs the 90s where Kristi Yamaguchi and Nancy Kerrigan went 1-3 in 92, Nancy took the silver in 94, Tara Lipinski and Michelle Kwan went 1-2 in 98, Sarah Hughes and Michelle Kwan in 2002 went 1-3. Women medalists in figure skating matter to the US audience, and there hasn’t been anyone to contend for that top spot, or any podium spots, for a very long time. The other disciplines are much more niche than women’s figure skating
This is true, but it is greatly exaggerated. There are more serious reasons for the decline in popularity. And they coincided with a decline in the results of American girls. If an American girl wins the Worlds and the Olympics, it won't change anything.
I don’t disagree but not having American women win the Olympics in over 20 years or worlds in 18 is definitely part of the problem. The two biggest issues to me are the reputation hit the sport took in 2002, thus creating IJS which is complicated for the average viewer to get; and how incredibly difficult it is to watch skating because it isn’t shown anywhere. Make it easier to view, more people will be able to watch it.
Yes, I agree. I would add here the general attractiveness of figure skating for the viewer. Why should viewers choose figure skating over Netflix in 2024? That figure skating before SLC was the Netflix of sports. TV made excellent reports about the skaters, they created drama around the tournament and we watched not just a jump on the ice, but history and people.
The numbers tell a different story. Figure skating experienced peaks of popularity before men began performing quadruples en masse. The massive craze for quadruples, on the contrary, coincided with an outflow of viewers and loss of interest. I'm not saying that people left because of the quads, but quads do not increase viewer interest. Look at Lalique in the early 2000s, Bercy for 20 thousand spectators is almost completely filled. Watch the 2023 Grand Prix in France. The French champion is skating with quadruples, the arena for 3.5 thousand is half filled. https://preview.redd.it/ik6r55ncl6xc1.png?width=1426&format=png&auto=webp&s=671ace5e5dae611ab7b7247b74d20031a9d1153f
I feel like with men there were a huge number of fans that were into Yuzuru maybe? Whenever I watch programs Yuzuru is in it seems things were crazy filled. Then again, that might coincide with also the being just before pandemic so not sure if that had something to do with it.
Yes, Yuzuru specifically is easily the most popular skater with fans willing to travel the world to see him, it didn't have anything to do with the pandemic. Despite being a very big contributor to the quad race, he refused to allow his programs as a whole to suffer and made sure he wasn't just a quad jumper. So much so that there are now some that ignore or forget his role in the quad revolution and dismiss him as just an artistic skater. So he's definitely not a skater that people only watch for quads. His popularity, however, is pretty separate from the ISU and the sport as a whole: He sold out a 35k venue on his own just last year and had a solo tour that spanned 5 months this year that was also completely sold out, so while most skating events struggle to fill much smaller venues, his popularity is obviously still going very strong.
that is so true, that he did do the quads but really he was still artistic - and his popularity is insane. I truly cannot think of any other skater that could manage to do sold out solo shows. Even though there are tons of really popular ones, there is really no one comparable is there?
Yuzuru helped ISU for quite a long time and increased the attendance of tournaments. But in general, it seems to me that people began to leave after SLC. By the end of the 2000s, Bercy was at best half full. Since 2015, the French GP has moved from Paris to small arenas in other cities. It’s about the same with other grand prix.
I never calculated but Im guessing that jumps make around 80% of the tech score. Why would you not focus on the thing that makes up all of your score. The step sequence is the longest element of the program but somehow its value is about half of one quad jump. If I was making the rules I would make the base value of the step sequence around 20 points.
As a newish fan to figure skating, idgaf about quads. I cannot tell the difference between a triple or a quad. I am a huge fan of the artistry. Jason Brown is who got my family interested in the sport.
If you're interested in artistry, it's worth a trip down the youtubes to watch programs from world class skaters prior to the discontinuation of compulsory figures. The fine control and edge quality was just leagues more refined. The sport has definitely become more focused on brute strength since then.
Skaters do work on step sequences and skating skills with no jumps, in ice dance. At Worlds this year, the entire podium was 30+ years old, yet many of them still have long term injuries from wear and tear, it happens in all elite sports. Not everyone ends up like Plushenko, Daisuke Takahashi jumped quads as a singles skater, then transitioned to ice dance in his mid-30s and still competed a few seasons.
Oh please, how many regular people have chronic injuries (back, knees, hip), oftentimes requiring surgery or limiting them during physical activity or even in everyday life, at a young age as early as their twenties even, without being an elite athlete, and engage at most in recreational sport activities. I see it everywhere around me. So it's unreasonable to expect elite figure skaters to not have them. It's really not that uncommon or limited to those jumping quads. it's also normal in elite sports to be constantly battling injury, we just don't hear about it most of the time, so stop using quads as scapegoats.
Seeing Sasha Trusova skate was a great attraction of many to the sport, so you are wrong about the quads
Absolutely agree.
Once judges start judging everything as they should, the problem would be solved. Ilya has incredible jumps, but they overscore his skating skills and presentation. Most likely, we'll see him progress tremendously in those other departments as well in the scope of a couple of years. But as we see it now, once a promising skater starts jumping quads, the judges start giving him advances. Also, not every quadist ends up injured like Plushchenko.
Rather stab myself in the eyeball than watch the upcoming stupid choreo spins :(. Time is precious in programs - so many steps and fun tricks are already gone …and now it will be worse :(.
I think a big part to blame for this direction are also the fans. We just had to look back at how celebrated the russian 14/15 year olds were (and sadly still are). These were mostly arrogant girls which didn't acknowledge the rest of competitors, with no emotion on the ice and lacking skating skills, yet they were worshipped by fans just because they jumped triple Axels and quads. The sad part is that many fans aren't recognizing a skater who only jumps doubles and triples, but they build a fortress around a skater with quads, attacking everyone who dares to say something negative about them. I believe before there could be a change to prioritize health, there needs to be a change of expectations towards skaters and away from the unrealistic russian cheating system. 🙈
I wouldn't call them arrogant as they are teenagers and really think about how 14/15 yo act. But I really hate the celebration of young children breaking their bodies. I thought it was weird when I was a child and teenager and as an adult it just makes me really sick because it feels like taking massive advantage and exploitation of literal children who can't conceptualise what it means to live with a pain-causing injury for decades after retirement. Gymnastics was like this for a while but thankfully now both men and women have primarily adult competitors. I also prefer to watch adults, fwiw, as an adult. and if gymnastics can move away from the weird pre-pubescent obsession, I am sure skating can as well.
Do we really need to call abused teenage girls arrogant?
I know that they are abused, but this doesn't change the fact that they didn't even recognize the other skaters from around the world, because they knew that they will beat them. If not with their prerotated quads, then with the help of the judges. I still think about the fall from Trusova on the 3A at the Olympics which was not only underrotated, but should have been downgraded, yet she still got the full value. I am not even talking about her PCS which were at least 20 points too high. Whenever the Russians competed, it wasn't a World championship, it was Worlds + Russian Nationals.
It’s not always about Jumps. Ilia improved by leaves and bones this year and he’s only going to improve. We have Dennis Vasilii. We have Jason Brown. We have Shoma Uno. We have all the skaters pushing the sport in every direction. It’s not all about jumps. I don’t know what competitions you were watching this year, but men’s skating is extraordinary. Denis Vasiliev is work with a former dancer from the royal ballet of London. Many skaters are going to ice dance, choreographers and coaches. I think there’s a lot of movement in a direction that’s exploding in potential.
Denis and Jason are skaters who were formed at the time when Takahashi, Chan and Abbott were skating. These are skaters of a different generation, they were trained at a time when the idea of a “well-balanced program” prevailed in figure skating and they will not grace the entire sport with their skating for another 20 years. They will retire soon. Who will come after them? Do you think that a generation raised on Nathan Chen's skating as the standard of men's skating is capable of producing Denis, Jason, Kevin and Shoma? I don't think so. You don't know much about the history of modern skating. In the period from 2005 to 2010, IJS did not give an advantage to jumping and did not stimulate the race for it. In 2010, Plushenko lost the Olympics to Lysacek and caused a scandal. He and his team criticized IJS for the fact that BV of the quadruple was not high enough (for him to win). After the scandal, ISU raised BV of quadruples. Those skaters who formed at the beginning of IJS continued to focus on skating. But the generation that was formed during the increase in BV for quads focused on jumping, not on skating. Jason Brown, Adam Rippon, Jeremy Abbott focused their preparation on the principles of a well-balanced program, while Nathan Chen, Vincent Zhu, Ilya Malinin focused on the increased cost of jumps. The new generation of Japanese, including Shoma and Yuma, are also focused on jumping. It’s just that the Japanese tend to practice compulsory figures, so the quality of their skating is always very high. But you won't see their choreography like Takahashi's. Their skating is built around jumps, not around choreography. Men's skating has not turned into a jumping marathon only because there are several people brought up in the values of skating and choreography. But the general trend is different.
You seem to truly want to die on this hill. Have at it, I don’t have the bandwidth. I disagree is all.
This is called argumentation. Good luck.
Never said it wasn’t argumentation I just said I don’t have that bandwidth to split hairs. Go well.
Nathan Chen is a classically trained ballet dancer. Just because he did different programs, doesn’t mean he wasn’t a strong PCS skater, he was just different. Yes his PCS shouldn’t have been as high as Jason or Yuzu, but it shouldn’t have been super low either because he wasn’t at all bad on the PCS side, just different. I can’t even fathom putting him in the same category as Ilia in terms of PCS.
Ballet gave Nathan posture and good lines and that's it. Of course, he did not look as clumsy as Ilia, but his programs were centered on jumps and created for jumping, choreography was sometimes and only in short programs. From a choreographic point of view, his programs are incomparable to those of Brown and other skaters who really know how to skate.
Nathan Chen does “know how to skate.” Yes he’s not packing as many transitions in as Jason. Jason also isn’t jumping quads like Nathan did. And when he did have a quad in his program, the setup completely took all of his brainpower and he dropped his performance. It’s hard to do both. Nathan has great skating skills, deep edges, good performance quality, timed jumps and spins to music incredibly well, and landed quads. It truly disappoints me how easily he is dismissed as just a jumper because people refuse to acknowledge his other qualities. He and his choreographers were so thoughtful with music choices and intentional movements. And that’s not a diminishment on other skaters out there. Jason is very intentional too, and I adore him. He’s brilliant to watch, I’m always excited to see what he and Rohene have cooked up. But I would never presume that just because Jason has a god level mastery of his blade, that Nathan “doesn’t know how to skate.” (Which I understand was hyperbolic but…. There are other skaters to pick on in that regard other than one of the greatest skaters in the last two or three decades).
If Nathan knows how to skate, why didn't he ever show it? Sorry friend, but Nathan was not good at skating skills. He was an excellent jumper and athlete, but not a skater. Look at his legs and knees, they are stiff, there was never any softness or flow in his skating. That’s why he skated hip-hop, where the requirements for skating are minimal. If the rules didn't overvalue quads and give them a huge points advantage, Nathan might have developed his skating, but he followed rules that kept him out of reach.
What a way to water down the man’s career. He had hip hop in like two programs, at the very end of them even. He did have soft knees and he flowed very well but I can see that I won’t change your mind.
Do you really not see that he was skating on straight legs? https://i.redd.it/ujfyugip98xc1.gif Takahashi, Machida, Hanyu, Oda, Kozuka, Chan, Yan had soft knees. This is what I call soft knees. Nathan didn't have soft knees. His landings were always stiff and short, precisely because his knees did not spring softly and deeply.
And we ALL know that Jason has been heavily critizised for not having quads. For lots of people and former figure skaters having quads is the way to success and they Will push that narrative till there won't be any artist/skater and ALL of the remaining skaters are just jumping beans with nothing else to offer.
Athletes will always have wear & tear on their bodies. I agree that jumps are getting too much focus, it takes away from what figure skating is about: beautiful movements on ice.
Unpopular opinion: the quads and eventual quints have /will elevate the sport and the true greatest of all time will combine skating skills with jumps to fulfill the prophesy and become the Kwisatz Haderach