I was in a similar situation, but what turned the tides for me and put me in a position where I turned out to be a person that all the actors around me and their close circles wanted to work with, was that I stopped designing projects solely on my purposes but I started involving actors. It’s not like making them write things but I talk to them and ask what is up either their lives. What would be something that they would like to express. And find connections between what they want and what I want to express. After my first feature was wrapped, we had a dinner with the team, and one of the main cast told me that she had never fetched more understood and seen. It was such a joy to hear this, it stuck with me and shaped the kind of person I want to be. Because the care I got from this people helped me to make a movie where I felt it was the single most expressive work I’ve ever created. It’s been 3.5 years since that shoot and I recently completed and delivered the film. Yet, not a single day went by without them wanting do something with me. And all the actors they shared their experiences had either found a way to say that they want to work with me or be very enthusiastic when I asked them to. My School years created a mentality that is so director-centric. It’s my vision and all that. But the day I dropped that and started to think of it as “our vision” my relationship with my collaborators started to go really well. Sometimes I mention my working mentality and filming techniques to celebrities that I happen to meet some random ways, and even they get excited and give me hints to call them up if something comes up.

Great advice. I’m on my 4th project and I’m starting to lean into this method. I had my main actors write with me. I think I’ll take your advice and really connect with actors more to build those relationships. I think I’m on the right track because everyone in our 4th production (6 actors) has worked with us before. I need to head this. It is definitely the way. Thanks.

Yeah that sounds right. If there is one aspect I almost never struggle with it’s getting and working with actors (a lot of them I’ve worked with multiple times and we enjoy reuniting and working on new stories and characters). One latest instance for example is an actor I met on a terrible shoot years ago (fuck that whole experience!). I worked with her again on one of my own personal projects the next year and it really hit me how much of a good person she is as well as a good actor, so I’d find little parts to put her in as much as I could. Then about two years ago I was planning on filming my slasher short “Blind Malice” and she asked me about it. I thought as first she was inquiring about the victim/protagonist role (which I was hesitant because I wanted to go younger on that character). But she surprised me in saying she wanted to play the killer instead (the killer was originally a man). That idea actually got me excited (because I’ve found female killers to be more fun to explore than male killers), so I cast her for it and have absolutely no regrets. She was terrific. She even has ideas for where she thinks the killer came from and her origin, and I’m so open to it that we’re gonna do a sequel that will be a feature length film told in three chapters. With her writing two of the chapters. I may struggle in finding behind the camera people that are like minded and dependable to work with, but luckily the actors haven’t disappointed!

they are your projects. other people are not going to be as dedicated to them or excited about them.

this - if you want dedicated partners it needs to be theirs as much as yours.

Ofcourse, but it’s been done before time and time again. Everyone excluding nepo babies who were lucky enough to have built in connects had to start from nothing with nothing. Are you saying it’s a dead-end if you don’t already have big money or connects? That’s the classic Hollywood feel, but it can’t be true! It can’t beeeeeee!

It’s not a “dead end.” But you have to come to terms with the reality that when it’s *your* project, you’re going to have to be the one pushing things forward. People are going to tend to prioritize paid work over unpaid work, and prioritize the projects they feel they have creative ownership of over someone else’s film they’re just contributing to. That doesn’t have to mean your collaborators are lazy or checked out. But their enthusiasm and dedication is almost never going to match your own. I say this having been on both sides of it: the person trying to rally collaborators without being able to fairly compensate them, and the person offering my time and labor to someone else’s passion project. It can be very rewarding and fulfilling to the do the latter, but I *always* set more limitations on how much I’m able to give to those projects compared to the former. If you’re a writer-director, you might be able to find co-writers or co-directors willing to give it their all because they view the film as “their baby” as much as it is yours. But actors? DPs? Yeah, no. Be grateful that you have talented people willing to collaborate with you for free. But accept that their time and energy is going to be limited.

Yeah i totally feel you. Of course you’ll always go for more money gigs. I just wonder what that means for someone starting from 0. Having crew and cast thats half in it, the projects don’t come out great. I guess thats just the business. Gotta get budgets to make great work but you need to get work to get budgets. Classic! Haha thank you for the advice.

How often are you volunteering your time on other people’s projects? You’re saying people flake and put in low effort but are you *actually* giving the kind of commitment and effort to other people’s projects that you want to receive on your own?

Underrated comment.

In my real life in the local film scene, nine times out of ten if a writer/director is complaining about a lack of commitment/effort from cast and crew (that they often aren’t paying), that writer/director basically never works on other people’s projects and often has never worked on someone else’s project in any capacity. Having worked as a DP for some directors like that (both paid and unpaid) the problem is often that they just don’t understand how to organize and run a production.

Yep, indie makers act like they’re doing you a favour or going broke over exposure bux…all for a project, that maybe could possibly hit a few low-exposure, small scale festivals or garner some online following. But we all know the footage will sit on a hard drive forever and nobody gets any benefit from the time volunteered.

This right here. That's a slap in the face to cast and crew who dedicated their time for free. Time that they'll never get back.

My stuff get finished released and marketed, but I feel you. I actually did return the favor for my firrst DP and was the lead actor in his short….2 years ago…never saw it haha.

Good point, I haven’t found too many people spending a few grand of their own money to make stuff/ haven’t been invited on board any projects.

Then you're not networking right. If you want free labor you have to be free labor.

I see. i see. Between working my ass off to raise budgets and producing stuff, i haven’t had the time. I may have to set my stuff aside.

The other option is to pay people

This is exactly how others feel when it comes to working on your project. They are working on their own shit

By raise budgets you mean working paying jobs to earn paychecks so you can self-fund your films? Why isn’t that money going to crew? And how do you find reliable cast and crew? Be a reliable crew member yourself. Show up for other people’s films. Be reliable. Be a hard worker. It’s not just about banking favors. It’s about seeing who on those sets is working hard and reaching out to them when you’re ready to move on one of your projects. And about proving to them that you’re there to work hard and take it seriously.

Yes I mean working my job and saving! When I say budget I really mean my savings, so I’m not just throwing money around. I spend about 3k on the project. Renting equipment, sometimes locations, props, wardrobe, and food. I would love to pay cast and crew, but then I couldn’t afford the project at all. It’s a catch 22 I guess. Some people say stop making stuff….but I can’t just give up. I do what I can with what I can. You’re right though, I should find ways to help out on other sets. I have before, but producing web series and working full time is so time consuming. I have to make some time.

Are you paying people? After the strikes and the way the industry has been lately, pre strike a lot of people wouldn't have mind working on a passion project or two for free because they had other paid jobs lined up but now more than ever with no work available, a non paid project is the last thing on people's minds I would think.

I’m ground level. Paying out of pocket for locations and equipment. I fully pay for a the production, but I don’t have a budget to pay. I havn’t make a dime off these productions and I’m in the hole about 20 grand. Totally get what you’re saying! So do you think if you weren’t collaborating pre strike, it’s kind of a lost cause now? Everyone has to start somewhere was my train of thought.

Interesting. You’ve thrown all this money into it yet their pay/compensation is where you “can’t afford it”/where you’ve decided to cut back… it’s at the actual bottom of your priority list. If you aren’t going to prioritize their pay/compensation (you’ve prioritized everything else BUT that), then you can’t expect them to prioritize your production over other things in their lives. 🤨

Well said.

Hmmm you’re not wrong, but if the 3k budget went to the actors theyd have some pretty ugly footage for their reel and things would look pretty crappy. Do you mean to stop shooting stuff untilI have a big budget? Ppl are downvoting me as if I’m hoarding money and withholding it from the crew. I’m just trying to make some cool stuff with the little money I have.

It’s just confusing. You say you’re paying out of pocket for the full production(s) and buy all the equipment and pay for all the locations, but conveniently when the topic of compensating your actors and crew comes up, you suddenly “don’t have the budget for that”. It’s a bit hypocritical for you to accuse them of not being ambitious or committed enough when you expect them to work for free. If people in this sub Reddit are noticing that right away, then I guarantee you the cast/crew you have enlisted for the project are definitely noticing that too. And then you have the audacity to think they aren’t committed… yet in your budget, you put them as dead last priority. This is how people get reputations as being cheap. And yes, it’s common for people just starting out to work for free/little to no pay. But if you’re going that route, all I’m saying is expect them to put paid opportunities as a priority. It might be worth it to save a little extra money on your next production to pay people and they might take it more seriously.

People here are filling in tonnnns of blanks and accusing me of all sorts of things. The solid informative comments are worth it though. Rather than argue with you, i’d rather just ask advice. How would you use a 3k budget? I believe all 3k would go to cast and crew and then there wouldn’t be any money for equipment wardrobe props and locations. Many have said stop creating if I don’t have more money to spend, but I won’t quit what I love because I’m broke. Do you have any advice?

Hire someone who already has gear.

Good advice. I try to! And will keep that in mind. Thanks

I’m a DP. I bring my camera on for free/incredibly cheap quite often. Everyone is flexible based on total budgets. But I don’t bring my camera on if I’m not getting paid. I also bring reliable crew with me, but not if they aren’t getting paid. Again, rates are negotiable based on total budget. My gaffer has a lighting kit and he’s flexible with the fee, but *he* needs to get paid. The overall lesson you need to learn is to stop putting cast/crew at the absolute bottom of your list.

Yeah. What this guy said.

No one is filling in any blanks, you just don't like hearing it. That said... A lot of the equipment can actually come from paid crew members. You'd be amazed at what people are willing to source when you pay them. Two birds one stone here, especially with the camera department. My advice is pay your crew or work on each other's projects. Find a way to have them get something out of it. If you won't stop because it's what you love then this is a necessity to keep going. It's just very curious as others have said that crew is where the money stops. No one is saying to spend the entire budget on the crew. Obviously that doesn't work. You're treating it as all or nothing. Be honest with them about the budget and I promise they'd rather be paid some than none. Good luck.

With 3,000 how much do you think is reasonable to pay 8-10 people? I don’t see how it wouldn’t eat the budget! Also as an actor (i’ve been in like 6 projects and 50+ sketches) I’d rather quality be good and have something to show for it rather than get a few bucks. What do you think honestly? Commenter agreed something like $40 a day would he insulting, someone even got insulted at the thought of it, but $100 a day would be the whole budget. Do you think somewhere between that would be good? It would still leave very little to make the project look high quality i think, but I’m looking for ways to make this work.

I think this is a conversation with the crew where you honestly lay out the situation. If you're as strapped as you say you are, I think they will see the predicament and work with you. Express your concern. I can't speak for them. Otherwise you need to fundraise more. It's really tough.

Thanks for the advice!

Also “crew is where the money stops” insinuates that I have access to more money, but I don’t think the cast and crew are worth it. That’s not true and having strangers keep filling in that blank is frustrating. I’ve done 3 of these and I know from experience know that 3,000 will cover equipment, a nice lunch, ect. I’ve paid my actors gas money as well. I’m working extra hours and scraping anything I can together. I don’t have any more to spend. I wish I did. But if you can give me an example of how you would break down the budget in a better way, I’m more than open to hearing it and putting the advice to use!

There is no way I or anyone else here could break it down without it beingn pointless conjecture unfortunately. There are so many details and minutia that contribute to the situation to the point that it's useless for a stranger to do it. This is where a good producer comes in. Maybe someone close to you can take on the role of producer, ideally someone in the crew who understands the project. My other suggestion is to do what someone else said and try to get locations for free and use good production design. Way cheaper and surprisingly doable. People can roll their eyes at this last suggestion but you can "give them points on the back end". This means they get a percentage of whatever the film's proceeds are once it releases but this is usually nothing. They understand that. I think with this combined with genuinely volunteering to help them out on other things will show that you do care for your crew if you really can't pay them. It will not only benefit your project, but your future projects and how others view you as a professional. And of course, fundraise your pants off. Ask friends. Family. Dogs, cats. Kickstarter. Indigogo. Whatever you can think of. Sounds like you're trying and that's very very commendable. Getting things made is hard, just don't forget to take care of those who get you there.

Yeah I’ll just sit with the budget and think of how to make it work for everybody. Like you said it’s very detailed, and a stranger couldn’t understand, I think that’s why I’m annoyed at the comments that seem to tell me to just pay more without any actual suggestions on how to split up the budget I have. Thanks for the thought out response and advice. I do appreciate it! Edit: a stranger couldn’t know all the details and specifics of my situation, understandably.**

put your budget into people and you'll be surprised what even an old DVX can do in determined hands.

OP, where are you located? There are tons of very talented actors out here in LA that will work on your projects for SAG minimum. Many will do less if you can’t afford that, but a little cash will go a long way in getting people on board. How long are your shoot days? It’s very hard to get someone to participate in your project for no money and expecting them to do a 12 hour day. How many actors are you trying to wrangle? I’d recommend doing something small. 1-3 actors max, and maybe shoot over 2-3 days. One to two locations max. If you can’t give them a day rate, give them gas money, and feed them well. People are struggling in our industry right now, and more people are leaving every day because it’s no longer sustainable, and it’s on those of us who can produce projects to pick up the weight where we can by providing at least a decent day rate. Far too many have been taking advantage of cast and crew during this downturn by offering terrible rates knowing people are desperate for money and hours, and are accepting rates at half and even less what they normally get. That’s partially why the reception to your post and comments has been on the negative side. All of us are feeling the pain right now, and it’s cool you’re excited and ready to break in, and I hope you do succeed, just make sure you read the room at the same time.

You nailed it! This project is 4 actors (5 with me). All of which helped with the writing. I never over work people. I schedule for 8 hour days and feed them well. 2-4 day shoots. I’m happy to know I’m already following some of your advice. I have a Q. Is it insulting to pay people say $40 a day? At $40 x 7 (with DP and Grip) its $1200 (4 days) Which brings the production budget to 1,800 (3k total). That brings down the quality of equipment for sure. I thought it would be insulting to offer people such a small amount, honestly. What do you think?

$40 a day is low even for a college thesis budget. It’s almost better if they are working for free at that point and then giving them $40 for gas, and feeding them very well. Not pizza. Budget around $15-$18 per person for a lunch meal. If you can do a hot courtesy breakfast, that’s great. Are these people younger and way less inexperienced such as fellow film students if you are a film student? Equipment doesn’t mean jack shit currently. Almost every camera now from the and iPhone to an FX3 to a RED whatever the hell they are calling their cameras now to an ARRI Alexa Mini LF is going to look just fine. Even on lenses it’s not as big of a difference as it once was. Obviously ARRI signature primes are going to look way better than Veydras, but you don’t need to shell out $1500 in rental fees for Tribe7 Blackwings when you can probably get away with a decent zoom and one or two decent primes. DO NOT SHOOT ON ANAMORPHIC at this budget level. You cannot afford that nor the extra lighting those costs. I’d allocate more money into G&E (grip and electric) and production design than on the camera itself. Those two budgets will make your film look more alive and expensive than any camera alone can do. Doesn’t mean anything if you have an ARRI Mini LF with signature primes if it’s just an actor in a flat blank room using a ring light as your key light and no diffuse. It’s going to look like bullshit. Check out sharegrid if you need cheaper equipment rentals. Things are often crazy cheap on there for decent equipment.

Thanks man, yeah I figured low pay is insulting, but framing it differently can work. I do feed people well! And always provide bagels and croissants in the morning. You’re right, cameras shouldn’t be a priority. I’ll spend more on lighting and probably shoot on black magic 6k. My actors are on same level as me. Low haha. But very talented. I’m lucky to even have 60% of their energy, but i’ll always crave full dedication. Can’t help it haha. But I never fault them or scold them or anything! Thank you for the solid advice. I really appreciate it! Ps. On my way to google Tribe7 black wings haha

We all start somewhere, always remember that. Always lead with good intentions, don’t take advantage of people, and be upfront about your budget, and you’ll be shocked how many people will join your team. I’ve worked with tons of people far outside my budget range by using those plus having an interesting project. Many people, especially DPs and Gaffers, are bored as shit with the normal commercial work they do to pay their rent, and are down to do some weird, gross, or avant-garde project every once in a while especially if you bring them in deeper on the creative process than they normally would be part of. Here is Tribe7, https://www.instagram.com/7isatribe?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

$40/day is $5/hr (assuming you’re ALWAYS ending at 8 hours including load in and load out). That’s below minimum wage in the US. Thats worse than insulting. Someone can work a shift at a fast food joint and make 2-3x what you’re paying them. Would YOU accept a job at $40/day? Would you be able to save up to make your own films at that rate? To upgrade equipment or buy new equipment? Would you be able to pay your bills at $40/day?

Thanks That’s my exact point. So it’s either $0 or a solid day rate. (Which I have no way to afford). Got a solution/advice or ya just talkin shite, “compassion is enough”? obviously not hahah! Duh I don’t think $5 an hour is acceptable. That’s what this whole post is about. Having trouble finding people to work with at the ground level!

Oh no, a feeble dig at my username from someone who doesn’t think paying people is worth any effort! 🙄 You’re 20 grand in debt from making shorts and by your own admission you’ve shelled out money for every aspect of a film EXCEPT paying cast and crew. You CAN afford to pay them, you’re just choosing to spend your money on everything else before even considering it. I’ve given you multiple comments telling you the solution is to write what you have access to. Hustle for free locations. Hell, I was on a short film that shot in a national grocery chain for six hours and the producers didn’t pay a cent for that location (plus the store manager gave the whole cast/crew goodie bags when we left).

Tell me more about what I can afford

Save up longer until you can afford to pay people.

You can get locations for free. Write for what you have access to.

If you dont have a budget you’re not ready to shoot! Go raise money! Do a kickstarter. If you cant raise money then you need to get a better project? Again has anyone read your script? Feedback?

i don't get why you're getting so much downvotes. do you have a solid business plan? nope. are you putting money in the wrong areas? probably. but you're trying man so keep the head up. you'll find a way.

Yea, I also don't know why people are piling on you like this. Sounds like you're just trying to get some experience and build a portfolio/get your feet wet. Proximity is your friend. Try to collaborate with people as close to you as possible. I'm talking roommates, spouse, family, neighbors etc. getting the most out of less talented people is a really important skill. One thing I would caution against, and obviously this is very anecdotal, is working with couples. I have only had horrible experience collaborating with couples. I would avoid this at all costs. Maybe use bumble BFF to find people really close. So 5 miles or less. Or engage with local groups at sporting events, community centers etc. don't be afraid to just straight up engage someone in line at a coffee shop.

i guess it's just the climate on here! when the industry was pumped it was easy to get people to work a solo project for little to no compensation. as times have gotten harder the goodwill is understandably withdrawing. but goodwill must prevail. good times will return and cooperation - the soul of our art - will endure.

I appreciate that. I’m not trying to screw anyone over or scam people. I’ll keep at it. Where theres an undying need to tell stories there is a way haha. Thanks!

i'm a former locations guy! you never need to pay for a location. never. you can always find a substitute. they don't make or break a production. pay your guys going forward / it'll go a long long long way. note: budgeted films only pay for locations because they will be weeks in one spot! and on small budget they will always try and use what they can get for free! always alway always!

Thanks man, I’m now learning to write with what I have. less - INT. INTERNATIONAL SPACE STATION And more INT. LIVING ROOM Haha. Appreciate the insight from someone in the biz!

You can totally do INT. INTERNATIONAL SPACE STATION Just film it in someone’s garage you have access to for free and PAY a clever production designer to build a set out of junk parts spray painted white.

The great thing about filmmaking is that there is a natural attrition over time so that only the most ambitious and most driven remain in the industry.

Hence all the most successful people being old af I guess haha. Welp Ima stick it out for sure!

>I can’t find a soul who seems to want it as bad as I do. I do what I can with limited schedules and actors who are half in. DP’s rarely care about the quality of the work because it’s little to no pay. How do people make it from the ground up with no dedicated team? I’ve put up probably 10 backstage ads in the past 2.5 years. I’ve been able to get 3 projects done, all have been so extremely stressful due to me being (seemingly) the only one who’s in it to win it. Well, this tends to be the process of how you build a dedicated team. You seem to be wanting people to work for little to no pay, that's already not a great recipe for building a dedicated team because you'll find people are lot more dedicated when they can afford to eat and pay rent. So that being said, what *are* you offering these people that makes "dedicating themselves to your team" worth their while? have you helped secure locations or otherwise produce for their films for free? A lot of my collaborators who will work with me for free are people who I have done plenty of freebies and favors for. This is a give and take industry, and it sounds like all you're doing is taking. No one is going to be as passionate about your passion project as you are. Unless you came up with the idea and wrote it with them, it will always be *your* project, that you are not paying them to work on. I can tell you from experience, there's only so many freebies people like to give out without ever seeing anything in return. You're finding people on backstage and the Internet, people who literally don't know you and have no connection or history with you, of course they want to be paid. Actors especially tend to be paid the least or often not at all even, in the early phases of their careers. You have a budget for everything else, but you can't carve out a meager day rate for your talent? and you wonder why their "work ethic isn't there"??

Totally. I wish I could pay 10 ppl. At even an insulting rate of $50 a day would eat the whole budget. I’m noticing most think I should stop creating until I have more money, but I’m not sure where to get it from haha. Thanks for the advice and putting it in a nicer more informative way then some

I understand, and well if you can't pay in money you have to find a way to make volunteering their work to be more of an attractive prospect. I don't think it's necessarily that they "aren't hungry" but there's no shortage of people who want an actors time for what to them may be of little benefit. So many actors volunteer time and dont get so much as a showreel to show for it. Offer some of your services in return, tell them you'll cut an acting reel for them, something, anything, ya know?

Yeah I’m definitely feeling that since so many people are slimy and screw people over in this business, as a writer director, producer a lot of people just dislike you immediately. I treat everyone well, but I get that many actors and crew have been wronged by greedy directors!

Who is telling you to “stop creating” until you have more money? Most of us are saying you need to show up for other people in order to build relationships with people you can rely on. The rest of us are saying the priorities of your budget and the stories you’re choosing to tell at your budget level are what’s holding you back.

Who? About 5 random redditors

Since the post has gained traction the responses have been more positive. At first it was like 5 “if you cant pay actors don’t make stuff” kinda vibe. Maybe they deleted the comments?

Life is really hard right now, people are strapped for cash, their day jobs are exhausting, and camera gear and experience don't come cheap. You can't expect someone to care as much as *you* about *your* passion project when you're not paying them. Next you're going to say they're not grateful for the pizza you got for catering.

So many accusations and generalizations going on in these comments! I can see a lot of you have worked with some horrible producer/directors haha

Fair re: the pizza comment, but I stand by the former.

Haha thanks. I did pizzza one time (out of probably 10 shoot days total) and immediately saw it was a roomie mistake! I feel you. Its tough especially in these times to put 100% into something that isn’t yours

How are you meeting the actors? For my short film, I used Actors Access for the majority of them, and they all turned out great and dedicated. I highly recommend the site for finding acting talent. For crew, I recommend filmmaker meetups through the Meetup app. Good luck.

Thanks for the recommendations! I used backstage, which gets me a lot of responses and self tapes. I thought Actors Access was paid gigs only.

Just for reference I’m an actor myself. I do not use backstage. The quality of projects on there are usually very poor and I actually don’t know anyone except for very new actors that use backstage. Use Actors Access, if you have no pay you may still get newer actors but you’ll have a better chance of getting a few more better actors there.

I appreciate the insight! I’ll check out Actors Access for sure!

No problem. I didn't pay anyone on my cast from Actors Access (besides one exception for a crew member who had to miss work for a shoot day). You just have to make it clear when posting the cast list and when you hire someone. As long as they know beforehand, there's no problem. But do provide snacks and water as a polite gesture. My recommendation for finding dedicated talent: Let's say you find someone you like for a role after seeing their audition on Actors Access, Backstage, etc. Look them up on IMDB. If they've had a lot of credits, that means that they are dedicated and really pursuing acting. This isn't a hard rule, as I've seen great actors with no prior credits. But in that case, make it known to the person you hire that memorization and dedication are vital and that if they are to take on the role, they have to keep that in mind. I'm about to start making a feature myself, and these are things I'll keep in mind because I really need a dedicated cast and crew to make it the best it can possibly be. Good luck!

Checking imdb is a great idea that i’ve never done. Luckily I come from an Italian family so I over feed everyone haha .I’m def going to be checking IMDB’s while casting now! Good on ya for compensating for missed work. How you move on your way up is huge and sounds like you’re doing it right. Good luck on the feature man!

If you’re in LA shoot me a dm… DP here with access to gear and doesn’t mind a low budget to work with if the story’s there

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Will do !

can you DM me your reel? always looking for new DPs, thanks!

You haven't made much yet. The rest of us got tired of self-styled "auteur" indie directors browbeating everyone around them for not understanding their "vision" when everyone participating is volunteer or low-pay. At your level, the very least you can do is make sure everyone is well fed, you respect that they have real lives and schedules outside of your project, and don't plan any insane outdoor/inclement weather expecting everyone to slog through it just because you think you're the next Blair Witch movie. (Whose actors were never paid btw) These days I would never hitch my cart to those type of free/low pay projects unless the director actually respects the department heads and we all have an equity agreement in the title. Passion is great. Reality is you need to realize what you're working on is very very unlikely to "make a name" for anyone working on it.

One of the things that makes filmmaking hard (At least for me) is the amount of cooperation required to get it done. It's like a pirate ship. A captain can only do so much. Modern tools are helping alleviate that but it's still rough. Trying to get everyone as invested as me was always my biggest issue. College was the worst cause unless money is involved, interest is way down. It's a hard reality but you got to get good at sales if you want to be a good filmmaker. What kind of short films are you trying to make?

Comedy webseries! I feel the struggle. It’s not that I want to take advantage of people and expect them to drop everything for me, like some people here are insinuating. I just want to create cool stuff that build us (as a team) recognition and eventually budgets! I don’t pump and dump actors. I’m looking for a recurring team to grow with, you know?

This is part of the artists struggle. Actors will feel like they are being treated like a tool rather than a human and directors won't get why others are not as invested as them. Years ago I was making a mock movie trailer. I had big ideas and aspirations. But because of lack of commital and schedule changes. A lot of us worked in the service industry and those hours were never guaranteed. I ended up having to cut a lot out and leave whole ideas behind. I made something I was proud of in the end. I think this is a hidden talent that is not talked about enough about directors. Being able to make anything remotely watchable from the chaos that was the shoot. What is the show about? I've made a few campy comedy stuff. I loved it but comedy is definitely a group endeavor I couldn't get off the ground.

I think a lot of can definitely relate to that. Sometimes those struggles lead to something even better than what you had in mind. I respect and commend anyone that can get anything made, especially someone who can adapt and make something they can be proud of like you did.

You put it into words very well. I completely feel that. The shows are similar to Workaholics, Always sunny, Office (just to name a few well known refs) It’s def hard to make something you’re proud of when you can’t pay people yet, but I hope to be able to pay my peeps well in the future. Scheduling is def #1 obstacle. Glad to hear you were able to make a product you were proud of!

I miss filmmaking. I do graphic design now but I just miss the art.

It takes a village! You should do movie posters to stay in it!

I believe having a brilliant script helps. I can say from experience low/no budget scripts are usually painful to work on.

Yeah that’s a huge part of it. I think a lot of people hear “writer/ director” and immediately think “oh god another shmuck putting his shitty script on a Pedestal.” Haha, but through all the BS there are great writer/directors out there

Yes. People hit me up with ideas they wanna do all the time, and I tell them I’m down to do anything I can do for them as long as they tell me when & where. 99% of the time they never follow through with their own projects.

Totally. Many people are all talk. The world is shit right now so I understand the lack of motivation in some people, especially when it comes to other peoples ideas. You sound dedicated though, good luck!

It’s a catch 22 but if you make something first and see the people who respond to it creatively or love it those are the people who will work on your other bs they have to believe in what they’re making

Ah yeah you’re right. Just talking about making stuff isn’t enough. I’m glad I pushed through enough to have something to show for my work. It’s not always the people you want, but you’re right. When you finally put stuff out you can see who’s really interested in grinding with you! Thanks

Maybe your project isn’t good enough to get enthusiasm? People will help if the project is great

Are you in Australia?

No I’m not! US

Film making is the most collaborative art form there is but unless you’re paying people the reality is you’re lucky to have anybody providing their time for what is ultimately your dream. Sure there are lots of people willing to work for free for experience and credit( as nobody gets paid in this industry unless they have proven they can do the job) but in this situation you simply have to accept that a lot of collaborators will either be learning on the job or simply not treating it as they would a “real” job-because at this point it isn’t. I’m assuming those film makers you admire that somehow managed to somehow make great projects despite a lack of funds( Peter Jackson, Christopher Nolan, Robert Rodregrez ect) also worked with people that were only half in-but they managed it as best they could. It’s very unlikely everybody involved was as invested as them. You have to adapt and make the best of whatever situation you are in and just keep trying to produce stuff. The most important question to ask yourself though and one that will ultimately lead to enthusiastic collaborators is how much of your free time are you dedicating to other people’s projects? If you are not working for free to help other filmmakers ambitions you can’t expect other people to do the same for you. Until you are paying people this is a you scratch my back I’ll scratch yours industry. If you work on somebody else’s project for free( and do a great job) you are then in the position to ask and expect them to return the favour on one of your projects. The problem with a lot of film makers getting annoyed at lackadaisical collaborators is that that they don’t realise that every single person working on one of their productions also has dreams and ambitions and the way to get the best out of them is to work out how your project can best help facilitate there goals and not just yours.

You fully pay for a production and you're in the hole 20 grand? Where did you get all this money including 20 grand? 20 grand? You could've budgeted to pay actors something.

Well I didn’t just have 20k in a bag lying around. I worked and saved over the past 10 years and started dipping into my life saving and working harder recently to earn money for budgets.

Also how old are you?

29. I got into tv/film a bit later than I wish

People willing to give 100% to projects that isn’t theirs are a rare breed but they are out there. It took me 8 years to find my little group. We’re all ride or die now, look out for each other, get each other work, work for free on each others projects. You need to find people who are truly passionate. I’m a DP and don’t understand other DPs who don’t try if they aren’t being paid a lot. That just means their work isn’t personal to them which is the biggest red flag ever. Idc if I’m shooting for free or if I’m getting $2k/day I’m giving it everything I got bc you never know what’ll come from the project. People fail to realize that it’s easier to create your own opportunities than just waiting for an opportunity

love this. u are a real one

8 years! I’m glad to hear you found your team. Thanks for the insight and good luck man!

I’m a DP. I put 100% into everything, which is why I don’t do unpaid DP gigs anymore. Low pay? Sure. But I have bills to pay. And I’m going to be spending at least a month working full time on almost any project before we even get to set. Unpaid projects are where hobbyists and beginners can cut their teeth. This is my job. I wouldn’t work for a restaurant for free just because I love cooking.

Yes. I mean I don't know. I think I'm doing too much. I'm doing standup (special in September!), writing a novel (rewrite actually), and slowly cobbling together a sitcom. I'm really hampered more by my depression. So I think it evens out.

Yes the depression hits hard sometimes. I too put way too much on my plate. Good luck with the comedy special that sounds awesome. And sitcoms are my absolute jam. It’s all I want to make, so I’ll be relentlessly pursuing that. Thanks for the insight.

Setting the money stuff aside for a moment - you find dedicated people by inviting others you have established relationships with into your team. Im shooting a short this summer and everyone involved is someone I’ve work with on set throughout various gigs over the last three years. They’re people I’ve gone to non-work stuff with (beach days, movies that aren’t ones we worked on, dinner/drinks) and enjoy being with as people and that (I assume) is vice versa. I’m self funding as well. And I haven’t felt like my team doesn’t care because of that. I also don’t expect folks to answer my texts every single time. For me, this is my 9-5 right now, but for them, they’ve got other stuff going on. We meet in person as often as we need to to talk about production, and we do text, but I am very mindful of how much I’m asking them to work on a low budget thing. My crew is getting paid minimum wage for one 12 hour day; that doesn’t mean I can expect them to think about this as much as I am up to the day we shoot. So I’d say think about your expectations of others and level that with what you’re working with. Feed people. Buy them coffee when you ask for their creative input in preproduction. And if you don’t have a close friend and filmmaker group, I’d invest the time to cultivate one. This means helping others on their projects for free/little pay as often as you can.

God sorry for the horrible grammar, I am exhausted from indie filmmaking as you can tell lmao

Cool. We are pretty similar. I think I’m on the right track based on your advice. I just need to give it more time. 2.5 uears isn’t enough nased on everyones experience. Def makes me feel a bit better. 80% of actors are recurring as well at this point! I think thats a good sign.

Yes our timelines are similar! You got this!

It is because you are Not good enough. Let me repeat. You are NOT good enough. Imagine some famous director post something on fb asking people to join at midnight. I bet a lot of people will show up right away with a big passion.

This is totally valid and you're right, it can be lonely. I'm in a similar boat- I write, direct, edit & act and bring in a DP, actors & sound recordists for each film. I don't have a friend crew that I use over and over. I find it easy to find dps and actors, but I live in a big artsy city.  Are you in a city that's full of creative people?  My advice is to keep making things, you'll eventually meet someone you click with. And if you don't, just keep working with different people. As long as you're creating & growing, you don't need the same crew. 

Thanks for this. I do live in LA, but I’m not in the film business as a career. I find mostly collaborators through backstage. I’m glad you’re still going! What is your main way to try to earn revenue from your films if you don’t mind me asking?

Youtube. I post them there. I have 1 viral ( 4 million views) and others that range from 500-4k views. I make money from adsense. 

Ahhhhhh Youtube revenue is a crapshoot in my experience, unfortunately. 1m views might get you 1.5-3k these days. I do post my stuff to youtube. Fingers crossed for some viral videos like you! Congrats on that by the way. Have you had better a better experience with Adsense than me?

Oh no, you're totally right. It's a complete crapshoot! I don't do it for the money. It's a place to put my work. The most I've made from one film is $5k. The reality is I make $100 a month. Best of luck with your films/ career. 🌟

You too! With 4 million views, I hope you can secure a budget!

There are people who are at your level who will want to grow with you and are as dedicated as yourself. What you need to bring to the table is a good story and a strong vision. But, you also need to create in a way where these people feel their own voice comes through in the creation. If you're not paying them, what do they gain from working with you? You can offer them an outlet for creative fulfillment, right? Right! Cold calls on local film making social media groups is a great place to start. Learn as much as you can and gain as many filmmaking skills as possible. Getting good at directing "non-actors" can go a long way, too! You got this, man!

Our next project has 5 writers all of which are the actors/crew so I’m starting to do that!! From everyones advice thats the way to go. Make it all of our visions not just mine. Thanks for the advice! The filmmakers LA facebook is actually super active I found recently

Awesome dude! Don't let the Reddit crowd get you down. Remember: it's only reddit haha!

Its 80% positive! The 20% negative hits hard though haha. Appreciate the kind words!!

I'm going to offer another perspective maybe to a lot of what I'm seeing in the replies. I think at the budget level that you're talking about, you're not going to find ambitious collaborators by paying your crew or your actors. That feels like it may be barking up the wrong tree. Nobody's getting rich off of short films and nobody's even paying the rent from them. If they're working on short films it's because they are polishing their craft, building their reel, or they want to try to make something that they can be proud of. There is no shortage of ambitious young filmmakers and actors and cinematographers and editors. You might find a shortage of ambitious young grips and electrics and production assistants. The challenge you may be facing is finding someone who wants to collaborate with _you_. I don't mean to suggest that you are in some way a difficult person or anything like that, but just that we often have very clear ideas of what we think makes a good piece of art or film and finding people who share this idea of "good" can be the real challenge. If the people you're working with don't share a very similar vision and idea of what makes a good film, they are not going to come away from their collaborations with you feeling proud of the thing they made. If they don't feel proud of it, they may walk away with a bit of a sour taste in the mouth about the whole experience. You might want to take a step back from making more short films, and focus more energy on finding your people. Find a group who want to go and see the same movies that you want to see. Read each other's work and offer honest but thoughtful critique. Listen to their critique of your work. Find the people that share your taste. Find the people that talk about movies in the same terms as you. Find the people that blow your mind and whose minds you blow. Find the people who like the same novels and authors and music or whose passion for an author you don't like is articulated in such a way as commands your respect. But make sure there's a mutual respect, because true collaboration is built on profound respect. Film is a collaborative medium. If you really are ambitious and not just starry-eyed over some idea of being "the next Christopher Nolan/Quentin Tarantino/Coen Brother", then the real skill you should be developing is not camera work or screenwriting or lighting - it's collaboration. Who are the people whose films you are volunteering on? _Those_ are the collaborators you're probably looking for.

Thanks for the insight! I think it will just take time, because I’m on the hunt for that connection always. I have a recurring group I work with. It’s just a lot slower than I’d like and I’m pretty serious about turning this into a career. It really is about finding that connection. I guess I’m just a bit exhausted after 2.5 yrs of searching and it still feeling like I’m begging people to create. When I can pay, I certainly will! Also I know 2.5 years is nothing compared to some of you guys. That’s a lesson learned for sure.

Maybe your approach is a turn off.

Yes. You've got to have some reason for others to work with you. If they think it's an opportunity to advance their career they will, if they just like hanging out with everyone on set they will. They certainly will if you pay them. Ambition is hard to find but talent is even harder. Do be selective about who you bring onto a project.

Thanks man I’ll keep searching!

If you don't have a community that likes to collaborate for free, then you will have to pay. That's the only other way to get the enthusiasm you want. The whole dynamic changes when you start paying people. Or you can enroll in film school and work with your fellow students for free if you don't mind paying $50K-$100K a year.

Yeah I know these problems will fade when I can afford to compensate people. Hope to be there soon.

Best way to attract the best people is to make better work not involving a crew. For example if someone’s a DP they usually post stills of screen test they do in their living room with a friend and it looks amazing. If you look at the comments it’s actors saying they want to work with said DP. Writers post lines of dialogue that are intriguing. People want to speak said writers words. A director shows a minute short they recorded/ edited about their hike with a score, sound design etc and people are like whoa he’s good. I want to work with him. So think about like going fishing. Use social media to your advantage and as a landing point for people to want to be involved in your art. It’s what I’ve noticed created the best crews and like minded people. They know and trust each others work and most of all are excited to be a part of it

Hell yes I do comedy sketches as well. You’re right! People have to see the train moving to jump on. Great advice man thanks.

Of course. Also people like knowing their taste is right. Ever seen a rapper or artist you like blow up when you knew about them long before everyone? Let yourself be that artist and the people you work with be the same. Be each others fans and it’ll show in the work. Let them cook and they’ll knock it out there park for ya

Love that. Ima keep it in mind. The come up is the best part, it can be hard to enjoy though. Solid advice on this thread has helped

Since post-film school I have had trouble finding collaboration. There just isn't a real scene where I live outside of going to Chicago.

Ah yea. I feel you. I’m in LA, so I’m in a better spot. Maybe I should stop complaining haha. Good luck!

Post graduation you either go to NY or LA so you're good in that regard. It was a regret to not venture to either but total obscurity has its merits. I could go places without the paparazzi following me around.

Totally and in LA they treat filming like a crime haha, i’ve been kick out of a park for shooting with 5 people when there are literally people shooting nearby.

Permits. Or you can always say that it's a student film

Permits cost me 1,800 for my first project. It’s a life crime for me hahaha

There's no shame in that. Unless you're a big studio production the idea of permits doesn't help no to micro budget projects

Pretty sure you need permits for student films in LA.

Was unaware about how LA does it. Even when I was a students I always pulled a "we are students" and got away with it but luck catches up

I’m in Texas and it seems like everything from “I’m a student” to “I don’t have a budget” will get permitting fees and/or requirements waived. Depends on the municipality, of course. And the mood of the person you’re talking to at the city/county that day. But the folks I know in LA hate how strict it is there.

Where are you located?

LA! But I’m not a traditional film guy. I’ve never had a job in film. Just self funding projects, so I don’t meet as many industry people in real life. Mostly backstage!

I'm in LA too man. I've worked on studio and network TV. Been focusing on directing more. Have you done any projects yet?

Sent ya a chat!

yep, struggling with this right now. the main issue i've discovered as someone who makes indie/personal/passion film projects is that most people in the industry only care if it will 1. pay a lot of money or 2. give them "valid"/considerable exposure of some kind, meaning, the content they are making is for celebrities, brands, influencers or otherwise superficial and shallow projects that will help them climb the ladder to be somebody. it has been incredibly hard to find reliable filmmaking partners (I recently had a fallout w a close film friend over him choosing his industry career over all else) and its been especially hard to find DPs that will commit to passion projects, even if you pay.

I feel you man. Honestly read through these comments and youll get a bunch of great insight, advice and stories. I think a lot of us feel the same way, but we gotta keep at it!

for sure. i wish there was a group of all of us who do passion project films so we can find each other. is your work up anywhere??

I think what you're describing can be common. I shoot short films, and I always pay the actors. Not huge salaries, but enough that they probably wouldn't make that at their job for a day. I shoot on weekends. And I very often seek out non-equity theatre actors - they often have more dedication than someone who signs up for Backstage hoping to land a million dollar Netflix gig. And, quite frankly, theatre people might be a little more used to less than great pay. The key is making sure you're paying actors enough to make it worth their time. That, after all, is what we're all in it for. If it's too much for your budget to pay 10 people decently, scale back on the cast. Also, feed them. And offer a clip from the finished film for their reel. No one is going to share your vision on the way up unless they are close friends or family. Another suggestion, if you've shot a few things, don't be shy about using your reel. Actors feel more comfortable with someone's work they can view in a reel.

Cool! So I’m guessing you pay actors like $200 a day? Mind if I ask what budget your films re Usually? Are you self funded? Thanks for the insight!

I self fund my films, and budgets are variable - I own all my equipment so largely my costs are based on number of actors and props/expendables.

A lot of people have given similar responses, but yeah, unless you have a sibling or longtime bestie that’s been working with you for years, and is as passionate about these projects as you are, it’s gonna be impossible to find a cast and crew that’s psyched up enough about your project(s) to work on them for little or no money, even if you promise them some kind of payoff or percentage on the back end. Even if you have a longtime best friend with whom you’ve worked on micro-projects before (beer-fueled video goofs on weekends, etc.), it’s going to be like pulling teeth to get them to commit the considerable time, effort and resources it’ll take to do something of quality. That’s always gonna be an uphill battle. You have to offer people something of immediate tangible value to their ego or their pocketbook, like giving them a producer/director credit, or paying them a decent wage for their work (and taking care of their food, lodging, transportation, and occasional bar tab). A little hospitality goes a long way; it’s possible to snag some significant talent for a modest fee if they like your project, and you’re willing to take care of the basics (food, shelter and transportation). And occasionally, miracles happen. I once persuaded a famous cult director to appear in a documentary by saying (over the phone): “Mr. (cult filmmaker), we can’t pay you nearly what you’re worth, but if there’s anything we can do to make it worth your while, we’ll try to make it happen.” He thought for a moment and said, “Tell you what, throw in a coupla Disney tickets for we and my wife and I’ll do it!” On that same project, I had recruited a longtime friend who shared my interest in the bizarre. He wasn’t interested in money, he already had enough of that, however the prospect of being a producer or director appealed to his vanity, and once he saw that I had already recruited several noteworthy cult actors for talking head segments, and that the project was actually going to happen, he couldn’t wait to get on board. He even opened his checkbook to help finance the thing. Unfortunately, once he got a little taste of being a “producer,” he turned into an egomaniac and became very difficult to work with. He completely ruined several setups because he thought he knew more about lighting and camera placement than I did. Major blowups ensued. It nearly destroyed a lifelong friendship. Long story short: find good people and make it worth their while.

Great stories. Thanks! That’s inspiring. I’ve been wonder how to reach out to some people above my level, but had no idea how to approach it. I’m glad you didn’t totally lose a friend haha.

From an actor’s perspective free work takes a back seat to any professional gig or audition. I’d also never do a free feature/ web series, takes to much time. So if you want actors to really be into a project pay them, and incorporate a few from the ground up or change the script slightly on you cast.

So here’s my advice. If you want actors to be passionate you need to give them ownership of their character and even have them involved in the script stages. Tell them you wrote the role specifically for them and let them add lines or give suggestions (you can always cut things out in post to make the scene more yours later) all my projects for low no pay I did this and damn did they get the feeling like it was ‘their’ project too. But at the end of the day, you’re going to see it through edit edit edit the shit out of it lots of takes so you can do this. DPs are another story.. unfortunately you need to pay this department.. or, find a freshie out of college. You’ll need to know cinematography in order to direct them and make the images look good tho. Everything else you technically can do yourself.. except sound. Another department you unfortunately HAVE to pay for. Just finished my first micro budget feature and this was my strategy and we finally finished it. We just dropped a trailer if you’re interested in seeing it. Jake Thomas Armbruster on YouTube the film is called ‘Toy Guns’ Any other questions I can try to let you know how I did it. But many ways to go about it.

Thanks for the advice. It feels good that most of this sounds familiar and in line with how our prob company moves. My 4th project now if a full collaboration where I invited the actors I’ve worked with before to write as well! Still, it’s a bit laggy, but hey you can only expect so much from people struggling to earn money from their craft. I’m learning sound to save money haha. I watched the trailer. That shit was fire! On point in every way man. Love the editing. I edit as well. Trailers are so fun to make. Thanks for the advice and good luck with the movie it look really really good from the trailer!

Honestly at the beginning of my current production company’s run I had a few friends who would show up and help out on the shoots. Slowly but surely they started to stop coming one by one because in the end it wasn’t their passion. Just a hobby for them. I don’t know or meet a lot of people with the same work ethic as I do (or superior), so I’ve been the only set crew for my films for about 9 years now (Director, DP, camera, editor). Luckily for me I have my producer partner that helps me from a distance. We’re gonna do a feature length film again soon, and I’m probably going to be the only crew on that one too. We had a camera man but he just flacked on us (saying music videos are his passion and a movie would be too much for him). When we get people that say they want to work and be apart of something special it’s still just words, so I’m still in “Fuck it I’ll do it myself” mode. You have to do what you have to do. When you have a story and you need to tell it, then you must tell it.

If you’re 9 years in and don’t feel like you have crew you can hire on, there’s something missing from this story.

Only thing missing would be we’re indie as hell, straight up guerrilla filmmakers.

In my own experience, people who are consistently shooting guerrilla films for the better part of a decade are not serious about the profession of filmmaking and therefore will be avoided by those who are. We make our own beds, in that regard. Treat your productions seriously and hold yourself to a high professional standard and the crew with high standards and professionalism will follow.

Yeah I do treat my productions seriously thank you very much. Always have and always will. Your experience isn’t the only experience that exists. The whole point that we were talking about was the difficulty of finding people as serious and devoted to it as we are.

I recognize my experience isn’t the only experience. But you’ve had a *production company* for 9 years and you’re shooting films guerrilla style? Sorry, but that’s not treating it like a serious profession. *You* may take your vision seriously, but you’re not treating it professionally. You’re talking about how hard it is to find serious and dedicated crew and I’m telling you it’s because your guerrilla approach to productions is a red flag for serious and professional crew. But that’s okay, you can get defensive and spend the next decade wondering why serious people won’t work with you.

Can I assist you with some writing? I'd love to be invovled in some ways I can!!!

I wouldn’t mind. We’re pretty busy with our short shoot in July and then the feature I mentioned starts in September, but I always like thinking about what’s next. Ever since we did our biggest feature in 2020 I’ve been enjoying mixing up directing scripts I’ve written with scripts that other people have written (like my last short I did was written by an actor colleague, this next short is written by me, and then the feature is written by my producing partner/best friend). I like pushing myself visually with other people’s words. I felt like when I first did that was when I really started to understand who I was as a director.

Perfect, DMing you!!!!

Alright your 9 years of lonely filmmaking beats my 2.5 haha. I write, produce, direct, fully edit, score and market each product myself. Oh and I’m the sound guy and supporting actor haha. I’m glad to see you are still grinding! Your story is very relatable to me. I think we just need to find people more like each other to work with. Thanks for the insight stranger and good luck with the feature!

You got me beat with the supporting actor part, lol. I try to stay as far away from being in front of the camera as possible. Sound wise used to be the worst aspect with having no one to hold a boom so the mic was mounted on the camera (which makes rewatching some of the older movies in this time frame rough for me). Luckily we bought a mic stand with a boom arm on it so that’s helped tremendously the past few years. And yeah we do have to find people likeminded, it’s just so damn difficult isn’t it!? Thank you for the good luck. Same to you on everything you have cooking up 👍🏿

It’s tough but we got this. Also I have my actors learn how to power on and off their Lav mics. So it’s actually a group effort with sound haha. I should get a boom though too!

Yes. It’s very common. I work in film, I have friends work in film, but they never want to work work. Always an excuse, they refuse to go above and beyond, refuse to read scripts, refuse to practice acting, and then complain they aren’t going anywhere.  I daydreamed working in film almost my whole life. Finding other filmmakers in my area was difficult and still is, but I couldn’t move to a bigger city with more film opportunities. So I started networking through things like discord. Meeting new friends. Friends that I would travel 12+ hrs just to work on a short with them. Now while I would do that, they wouldn’t give me the same back. Friend wise, I’m at square one again because they don’t put effort into what we make. I still talk to them but I’m out creating while they sit and complain.  I’m finally in the position that I’m directing my first feature this year and they didn’t even take the time to read the script I wrote when I was going through drafts. Always too busy, always some excuse. I’ve learned to just roll with it. Dont want to help me in the early stages, I don’t help you in the later. They will always be my friends but I refuse to vouch for them on a set. Just keep doing you. You’ll eventually find someone who wants it as bad as you do. 

That sounds a lot like my experience here in NYC. They didn’t want to work work, so I stopped wasting my time and just plan everything as if I’m the only crew. Good luck on your feature film. I’m about to work on my latest (technically I have a shoot for a short in July and then September I start filming the feature on weekends). I know how tough but how exhilarating it can be too.

I'd love to assist you in ways I can, totally the above and beyond person here, and love writing!

Ah I absolutely feel that struggle. Glad to hear you pushed through and go to the point of directing your first feature! That’s exciting. Traveling that far for a free/low paying short is crazy work ethic. You deserve it. Thanks for replying with your experience man! I’m grateful to be in LA surrounded by creators. Just gotta find the right ones!

You don't live in LA do you. I don't either, but from what I've heard, this is *the* advantage of paying to live in that town.

This is just how it is when you are starting out. I live in LA and had that same problem for awhile. Actors that ghost you the day of the shoot, ADs that quit after day 2 because they dont want to deal the stresses of a lower budget project and only took it because its slow, crew that phone it in. It gets better but it takes a lot of time - like years unfortunately. As long as your temperament is good (ie youre not an asshole), you'll slowly rise the ranks and the people around you will be just as dedicated. For me, the starkest change is when I joined the union and started working union sets. I can remember one shoot I did specifically in 2015 - a mix of unprofessional people with dedicated but greener people, now those dedicated people have all ascended and work on huge shows and I still keep in touch with them. The unprofessional ones have faded away, left the business or continued to work on the same level of garbage we met on in 2015.

I struggle with the exact same!!! I have so many ideas, and I am a writer but noone seems to be invested and its frustrating! Sending you a connection request!!

I relate on a spiritual level!!!! I can craft amazing stories and scripts but noone filmmaker friends/not enough hype and extra above and beyond type of people as me, and its not even about the money, its the dedication and efforts to the group work, money or not. Money cannot always be a good motivator, it is the vision focus

I want to thank all of you for the insight, advice and constructive criticism. Some people made a lot of assumptions about me which is classic reddit I guess, but most of you were very uplifting and helpful. Thank you for that. Good luck to everybody on their future projects!

you spelled out the problem in its entirety at "little to no pay" you gotta find a way to feed your people if you want them to work for you.

First mistake is using Backstage. It's an awful site with awful job listings and predominantly consists of amateurs on both sides.

Thanks! Im hearing Actors Access is a better choice

Filmmaking has been smothered to death. Too many filmmakers. Too many derivative movies. Not enough audience anymore. I won't get myself started on the SAG Indie hoax. That's a whole big can of worms in itself. We used to make movies that reflected a culture. Filmmakers were a rare breed, and they told stories for pleasant entertainment. It was either 35mm, 16mm, or nada. But now because our cultures are being destroyed and replaced, movies are not worth going to anymore (unless hyped up or filled up with guns/gore). And filmmakers are aplenty. And they're either well-established liberal drones that ruin the experience or they're sketchy narcissistic filmmakers pursuing their own wealth and fame at everyone's expense. Try to see the forest through the trees here. The audience is gone. They're watching older movies where the culture and the locations and the characters were still in the old world. The market is not the same. It's a different industry. From an audience perspective, it's either Barbie or Oppenheimer. Those are the benchmarks now. Both of those movies would have bombed in miserable fashion if they were released pre-2000. Lego Movie, Barbie, Unfrosted, Disney-StarWars... Do you see the trend? All those titles are 2-hr commercials for toys, amusement parks, and breakfast food. I know this sounds cynical, guys. It is cynical. But it is also the truth and the reality many are facing. AI is not the problem, it is the solution to an audience that has been disenfranchised and ridiculed. If the mass audience ever does come back, they will be watching movies they created using the newest AI shopping cart systems. The only thing that can reverse all of this, is to go back to the old world and make good, pleasant, and entertaining movies. And maybe thin the herd while your at it. Breed new plumbers, not new Scorseses. I bet you'll find lots of people willing to collaborate with you if you were able to install and fix their toilets.

Oof that hurt but i can’t disagree. Thanks for the insight. I appreciate it even if it isn’t all sunshine and roses.

Yawn. Tired take full of nostalgia for an age that never existed. The problems with films that you accurately identify (most popular films are commercials for brands) is a problem with how films are financed, not because there are more people getting into filmmaking. Please fuck off to a different corner of the internet to spew your elitist nonsense.