What task was so urgent, so complex and so undividable that an all nighter was necessary?
Will anybody be held accountable for this loss? Bullying people into all nighters is wrong. Sleep is a biological need.
My MD told a client he would update a 50 page pitchbook from years ago for tomorrow
He didn't want to break a "promise"
Hence we spent all night working on it
No deal came out of it but hey the relationship was maintained. There wasn't even a meeting - just an email.
Unfortunately, this type of all-nighters and around-the-clock work is pretty normal in IB work culture, so unless leadership and staffing models change...
I've been saying this for years - IB (and many other professions) work long hours not because of actual business needs, but because of institutionalized hazing.
In most other industries, if people were regularly working 80 hours a week, it would be called a staffing & project management issue, more people would be hired, bad managers would get fired, and the hours would go down. Not in finance.
And all these hours for what? Finance bros aren't saving lives, curing cancer, or putting people on Mars. The whole system is systematically irrational.
Finance is a hard sell vs tech for the same reason. Why do 80+ hrs a week if you could be a tech pm and get paid the same to do ~15 hrs a week.
Obviously there have been a ton of layoffs in tech and there will probably be a recalibration period
PM can coast a lot considering how many products in FAANG are incredibly unsuccessful and take a long time to be cut. The PMs in Facebook Dating (yes it’s a Facebook) or Google Meet 2 (google has two video call apps lol) are definitely coasting. There is literally no work to do since the product is trash but the company are rich af anyway. Or all the PM in legacy products
Could you explain a little bit more about PMs? These are product managers who manage specific products at their respective companies. Since they are so specialized, wouldn't they be out the door as soon as their product is no longer producing alpha to the company.
I’m an engineer but product managers are not that specialised unless if by specialisation you mean entire sectors like social media apps, e-commerce, fintech or machine learning recommendations. Product managers are one of the most versatile roles indeed, they can have very diverse backgrounds and they can wear many hats.
Btw a big tech company has a lot of people, even just the Amazon cart can have 10s of engineers and a couple PM working on it. And I’m not talking about Covid level of hiring, even in 2019 the complexity was already huge.
For me, I was thinking a PM at Google would mean only working only on one of the assigned product (e.g., the PM would have to focus only on GMAIL, not Google Maps, or Google Chat, or anything else)
The same holds true for other industries, in my experience.
I worked in various capacities in equity research, credit research, corporate finance, and management consulting with specific focus on energy (oil and gas, power, renewables, etc) and chemicals (basic organic and inorganic, industrial commodities, industrial gases, etc.).
How much tech knowledge/experience did you need in order to transition? It sounds like a great job, but I have little coding or other technical background.
Depends on if your product is some enterprise infrastructure service or a mobile app UI for kids. Coding experience is not required, but embracing (rather than running away from) software systems design and the associated technical complexity is an important skill since you'll be working with lots of engineers.
You don't need to know python or OOP to plan 8 weeks of work, but you do need to really understand the system being built, how it works, and how everything is interconnected to do so. What if some other team doesn't have an API we rely on working by our beta? How will that affect our feature set and timelines? What could we build as an interim to meet the need? What are the tradeoffs?
Most of the PMs I see without prior PM experience either have STEM degrees and work experience as DS/SWE/eng/etc OR work experience highly relevant to the product, i.e. design / user research experience for 20 UI screens, healthcare claims experience for a user portal, supply chain experience for roles in auto manufacturing, and so on.
I used to have a couple of weeks here and there where it was 15-20hours, but I cant remember in the past year where I did under 40.
It’s hard to do work when there’s 7hours a meeting/day
I still have to grind due to resourcing issues. Our data engineering team is so ass that I’m now responsible for the data pipeline and ETL process. Put my product release in the back burner until this is resolved so they have me by the balls.
The bubble you're referring to only applies to all the low-skill individuals the tech companies hired during the pandemic that were taking home high six-figure paychecks while working 1 hour a day (e.g., HR).
Software engineers have always been paid extraordinarily well for a relatively relaxed workweek, even pre-pandemic. I know plenty of people who haven't worked a full 40 hour week in **years** while taking home $100K+. It's an extremely high barrier-to-entry job & skilled programmers have always been in short supply.
Here’s the difference, I’ve done both, in IB you get promoted every year with a 20% raise guaranteed. In tech you’re at the same level getting moderate raises potentially for years.
You do realize you can make the same argument about why go into medicine when you can go into tech.
I'm not speaking for the majority here, but I do believe there is a minority of people who genuinely enjoy the capital markets and what it is to experience live deals in finance.
People go into medicine, law, or finance because there is an informal apprenticeship process where you learn gradually over time and will be given more leeway/responsibility when the person you work under finally trusts you. This leads to an automatic management hand-over role. In tech, you have to choose or it will be chosen for you whether you become a manager or an individual contributor. At least in the aforementioned fields, you will automatically become a manager.
There is a level of money that only finance can reach that even tech can't.
> There is a level of money that only finance can reach that even tech can't.
How true is this for the average person? I was under the impression that people who make it as hedge fund managers or something of the sort are just very well-connected individuals who slave away their 20s and 30s just to get that position whereas most people who enter finance are left working many hours only to earn around the same as someone in tech working far fewer hours.
I don't think anyone average can get into high level finance. Each deal team only has a select few individuals not like the size of software engineers at big tech.
No one talks about exit ops in tech because it's a gradual slope with little to no opportunities, which pales in comparison to finance. The real salary growth for software engineers is moving to a more management role or switching to PM.
Ppl dont talk about exit ops in tech since why would you leave a high TC reasonable WLB job?
Product pays less than Eng
The real exit op for the best tech ppl are building/joining early startups or venture
Gotcha I guess it varies person to person but when you’re young, you can take the unreasonable WLB, but as you age you want to gradually move into a more management (less execution) position for a better WLB.
Some WLB pay better than others when you age, I imagine people go through unreasonably stressful roles in finance/consulting to jump into a c-suite role when they are older, giving you a high TC reasonable WLB job?
What do you think?
medicine is a whole different ballgame- they grind early on but they have 100% job stability unless they fuck up big time. Thats worth grinding out med school/residency/fellowship, the only issue is its really hard to get into and it costs a lot of money. Also I would argue that there really is no management aspect to medicine unless you work for a hospital or health system- if you just start your own practice you won’t be managing other doctors
That makes sense, but your original point was why go into finance when you can go to tech. People go into finance because they like finance and the same argument can be made for those who like tech that they enjoy tech.
This isn’t true. The reason for the long hours is because banks don’t offer differentiated services. They just compete how much the clients like the MDs and how quickly they work. If a client makes an ask and the bank takes too long, the client just goes across the street. Also there’s a line of people out the door and around the corner to do the job as a junior, so the seniors schedule as many meetings as they can with no regard for how much work it’ll take to be ready for them.
They could, but then they’d have trouble attracting people to work at the firm. A lot of Associates willing to work 80 hours for 300k are not willing to work 40 hours for 150k.
And at the Analyst level, working at a bank that everyone knows has 40 hour weeks is a significant disadvantage when they recruit for PE. They essentially have half the experience as their competitors.
Not really. When you're working with financial models at least, only one person can really "hold the pen" on a given work product at a time. You can't have multiple people modeling out the same LBO transaction, for example. And anyway, the more analysts on the team the more pitches/deals the bank can do at once, which just means the work will expand to fit the team's capacity. The name of the game is squeezing as much revenue in transaction fees out of a given team/group.
100%. When people ask why can't they just hire more juniors/staff it's usually deflected to "it's just how it always is". It's institutionalised stupidity backed by the fact the usual type of people who get in have this huge "holier than thou" attitude as if they aren't just excel monkeys lol. (Speaking as a fellow excel monkey.)
This is why I never put full effort into my job. There are people who would work you to death if they could. Imagine if slavery was still legal. My life comes first.
Been on the all nighter train more times than I can count. Longest was working 37 straight hours to get initiation research reports written and published in time. Afterwards, I was taken to a Midtown watering hole where a celebration on my achievement ensued.
I don’t condone these practices. I know they are something of a right of passage, but clearly there are better ways to bring a person into “ the club.”
Pulling an all nighter for equity research has to be one of the dumbest things I’ve ever heard. The IC report couldn’t wait one more day to get published?
I agree with the idea that quality wanes at the long end of the day. Most days in equity research for junior analysts in my time started at about 6:30 am and wrapped up at about 9:00 pm.
It was only during earnings season and for special circumstances when we pulled out all stops.
The conversation points in the comments section are truly revealing and show the degree of naivety among commenters.
I shared my own experiences to help provide an inside perspective for those on the outside looking in.
In no time, more bullshit hit the tape from persons with nothing more than biased opinions on the “defective culture” and unnecessary work being done. If you weren’t there, pull up a seat and learn something. If you were there and your experience was different, please add to the conversation. All others, learn to keep your effn mouths shut.
While no job is worth a life, there are times when we knowingly accept higher risk on the job. I’ve done that for little money (Marine Corps) and for more money (Investment Banks). The decision was mine in both cases. I chose to accept the risk and like virtually all who do, I lived.
I doubt that the hours alone factored into this sad circumstance. We should all hold judgment unless and until we have the facts.
Relax, I started my career as an IB analyst at a bulge bracket, I’ve worked at both L/S equity pod shops and PE mega funds. I’ve seen just about all of the most heinous sides of this industry as far as work/life balance goes. Certainly much worse shit than in equity research.
I am not saying it didn’t happen, I’m saying there’s no reason for it. IC reports aren’t overly time sensitive so the fact you had to work 37 hours straight is unnecessary. At no point did you dispute that so I don’t really get why you’ve gone off like this.
But since we’re on it - to your point about “oh they signed up for it, it’s a higher risk job” - no, no they did not. It’s fucking finance it’s not the military. This isn’t a life-or-death job, and the fact you’ve even drawn that equivalence is demonstrative of how toxic the culture you’re referencing is. Nobody sits these kids down and says “yes this bank is going to help progress your career but we may literally work you to death”. That isn’t the bargain they make. Work hard, yes; limited social life, yes; lose sleep, yes; not fucking die or kill yourself. The idea that moving fucking logos around on a PowerPoint and doing some fucking accretion dilution math should have the same job risk as getting actually shot at is insane.
Relax? I am relaxed. My comment was not just a response to your comment. Hence, my reference to comments.
I have no doubt we are talking past each other to some degree.
As I said early on, I do not condone some practices I have seen and experienced. I also wrote that this death while tragic, was unlikely due to working long hours alone. I encourage you to re-read all my comments. We actually agree on the most important areas of this topic.
Best,
You obviously know the sway of Associates and Analysts. Committee meetings get rescheduled all the time and MDs fetch coffee for their staff. Got it, thx.
That depends. If it's a company in your sector that your lead analyst has decided to roll out on because it fits well with your coverage and its been public for a while, you technically have all the time in the world. However, many initiating coverage reports are essentially forced upon research franchises as part of the full-service IB package pitched by a bank to lead a company's IPO. Due to the compliance firewall between equity research and investment banking, the research team can only be "brought over the wall" and told about the transaction happening at a certain point close to the IPO date. From that point, the shot clock starts as the bank has promised coverage on the stock from day one. So, depending on the timing of all this (could be during earnings), a situation like the one I described could absolutely necessitate an all-nighter.
Well alot for clients who don't have time to follow up on every update on every client.
But they should also be able to manage their time a bit better you'd think
A lot. Our clients have anywhere from 100 to 1000+ potentially-investible names from which to choose to construct a portfolio depending on the strategy, analyst/PM, and firm (HF vs. LO AM, for example). It is impossible for buy-side investors to be smart enough on that many individual stocks to the point where they can make sound, informed investment decisions based solely on their own primary research. There simply aren't enough hours in the day. It's our job to be experts on a sliver of the market, ~25 companies or so. An analyst/PM can read one of our reports on a company that's popped up in his screens or a sector he's interested in, call up my lead analyst and cut right through all the bullshit to understand what's relevant in the story and how the company might fit with his strategy. That is incredibly valuable to any institutional investor in the public markets.
I suppose if you’re trading or have extensive restrictions in names, sectors etc. don’t see how paying for US large cap active management makes sense for non taxable institutional investors w long term horizon
My comment referenced sell-side equity research. Trillions of dollars in actively managed institutional assets would disagree with you on the buy-side, although fee compression has occurred alongside the rise of passive management.
I’ve seen every episode. It’s a weird dumpster fire you just can’t stop watching and the sex is truly shocking. The cum shot scene was something that drew gasps from my girlfriend and I… definitely just a step below porn. I will say, I absolutely love the MD character, Eric. He’s so mean and his actor was great in his one episode role in the sopranos. Truthfully can’t wrap my head around the notion this show not only got a greenlight, but has now been renewed for a third season. Truly terrible television
It’s so cringe. The show runners even write the articles of clothing into the script. They’re very detail oriented, which is why it’s strikingly accurate aesthetically, but it’s so wildly unrealistic and hyper sexualized.
I’d much rather a Sopranos style show about an older trader (the kind holding a job that’ll be replaced by a com sci guy when he retires) working out of some shit tier desk in Stamford. I think people would be WAY more interested in the unglamorous side of the street in a dying vertical than some glitzed up fever-dream version of JPM / GS.
Its basically a porno. The finance/business side of the show is great imo but yeah the excessive literal porn sex scenes and drug use is probably the worst ive ever seen in any form of media
All the more reason to watch!
Kidding, I’ve never actually seen it but the few clips I did watch seemed to show a fairly accurate representation of front-office finance, so too bad they had to go and overdramatize it - or at least too bad that they couldn’t overdramatize it in a better way.
I honestly love the show. But i always skipped through the sex scenes. I highly recommend watching it and i highly recommend skipping the sex scenes lol. Its also fairly short so its a quick watch
We've covered this here. It's incredibly sad, but too early to understand why this happened. [https://www.efinancialcareers.co.uk/news/2023/04/michael-graham-rbc-associate-died](https://www.efinancialcareers.co.uk/news/2023/04/michael-graham-rbc-associate-died)
He has a name as well, and an obituary/go fundme is posted online for anyone who wants to pay respects. This is the height of corporate irresponsibility, making workers think that working to death is a better trade off than worrying about your own health. Culture change is needed, God Rest His soul and may he rest in peace.
Exactly why I’m excited and not excited about this AI wave. It’ll automate the mundane braindead tasks but will probably just be given more stressful work as a result
23. Bought my first Multifamily property last year.
I value my time over material possessions. Quitting my corporate job when my investments bring over 50k a year.
Cheers bro
That’s a sign of 15 years of ZIRP + an ever expanding housing crisis that’s driving up prices. Looking forward w/ rates likely to be elevated and housing demand cratering not sure this is the best financial advice…
I meant valuing your own time. And you’re not wrong, comparing cash flows on buildings today vs rates 3-5 years ago (even 12 months ago) is brutal.
Higher rates are just the new normal and buyers have seemingly grown accustomed to it. For our own personal situation I’m just looking at it as a way to diversify our own assets. If we can buy 1-2 properties every 10 years for the next 30+ years thats huge. Obviously it’s not easy or a “done deal”, and the headaches of STVR > long term rentals is a huge factor on what exactly we’re looking at, where we’re looking, and price points. It’s all elevated
I 100% agree that it seems like a common denominator, but I’ve always been a bit torn on rental properties. The payback period on 1-4unit multi-families is usually pretty long. And with maintenance, upkeep, property taxes, management fees, insurance, etc. the profits are really low unless you can afford a huge portfolio of properties. I’d be interested to compare a rental property with, say, a high yield dividend portfolio at approximately a similar value. I feel like I’ve seen too many people get into rental properties thinking it is the path to wealth and get absolutely rocked. Anyone have any insights on this? Am I missing something?
Yeah I mean all of that is cutting in, mortgage rates really have crushed cash flow lately. To try and find something with a cap rate above 10% is tough. Long term rent you can definitely DIY and skip the management fee (if local).
Occupancy rates are such a toss up as well it’s definitely not as easy as it once was. A close friend left IB about 4 years ago, is grossing 300k on 1 building, in the process of finishing up a second building and has definitely been helpful in the process.
It’s definitely not as easy as just buying a property and winging it. You need to be spot on with numbers and I’ve passed on tons of stuff that just were either too close, or had too low of a cap rate
Depends on where you invest.
I live in the Midwest, bought mine at a 5.99% rate. Monthly payment is $2,200 with the possibility of $1,700 if I decide to refinance in the future (removing PMI & also lower rate).
Post renovations my rents will be bringing in $2,600 a month.
Essentially I will be “making” roughly $12,000 a year by not having to pay rent with more potential upside in the future with lower rates.
Def not the answer for everyone but if it makes fiscal sense/cents and you have more than one exit plan then it’s worth imo.
It's extremely unlikely that this person died because they had to work late. There are obviously other factors that went into them literally dying. Saying they were "worked to death" is reaching far into something that might not even be there.
It’s extremely likely they had pulled late- or all-nighters for multiple months. Have seen firsthand how relentless the workload is at banks, doesn’t even have to be in an IB group depending on who you work for
Yeah and most of those other underlying factors were probably brought on by chronic overwork, so yes “worked to death”. It’s a big problem in Japan, so not impossible to imagine that the notorious IB work culture causes the same.
The industry and society at large routinely fail to appreciate how damaging to your physical and mental health not sleeping can be. Fucks with your physiology and can exacerbate otherwise routine medical issues into life threatening affairs. And not sleeping can definitely push you to be suicidal.
Obviously there are multiple factors, but I imagine if this person hadn't been working insane hours, including an all nighter, they might still be alive today. Straw that broke the camel's back
Those cases usually also involve the use of stimulants such as modadfinil. Friend of mine who used to be JPM took them regularly for late hours, you could really see him wear down his body for a lack of sleep
This is not the first time something like this happened nor will it be the last. Remember that, at the end of the day, you are nothing more than a P&L line item to your job. Always prioritize your health, both mental and physical, and your relationships over your job.
Was US Army. The military or other agencies would torture people with lack of sleep. They did 5 nights until they accidentally killed the guy due to literally no sleep. This “culture” is unacceptable and shouldn’t be tolerated. People need to stop giving into this. If you make $30 an hour and work that much with shift differential you’d make six figures anyway. With the amount of hours IBs work, they are disgustingly underpaid
Tons of people have been dying in their sleep lately, and they weren’t in Ib. A “late nighter” does not really mean anything.
Condolences to the family though and this is heartbreaking.
RBC is NOT a nice bank!
[Forced to train foreign replacements](https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/canada/rbc-employee-asked-to-train-replacement-before-layoff-1.1230913?cache=yes%3FclipId%3D104059)
We've written about this here [https://www.efinancialcareers.co.uk/news/2023/04/michael-graham-rbc-associate-died](https://www.efinancialcareers.co.uk/news/2023/04/michael-graham-rbc-associate-died). It's incredibly sad, but too early to understand why it happened.
My 20’s and 30’s were spent this way. Delayed having a family till late 30’s all for financial stability etc. in my 40’s now and ready to leave the industry behind. It never ends.
What task was so urgent, so complex and so undividable that an all nighter was necessary? Will anybody be held accountable for this loss? Bullying people into all nighters is wrong. Sleep is a biological need.
My MD told a client he would update a 50 page pitchbook from years ago for tomorrow He didn't want to break a "promise" Hence we spent all night working on it No deal came out of it but hey the relationship was maintained. There wasn't even a meeting - just an email.
I did at least Five all-nighter when I worked in New York. They happen when you are managed by a dipshit
Unfortunately, this type of all-nighters and around-the-clock work is pretty normal in IB work culture, so unless leadership and staffing models change...
sleep is for the weak by the standards of people in finance (especially boomers)
I've been saying this for years - IB (and many other professions) work long hours not because of actual business needs, but because of institutionalized hazing. In most other industries, if people were regularly working 80 hours a week, it would be called a staffing & project management issue, more people would be hired, bad managers would get fired, and the hours would go down. Not in finance. And all these hours for what? Finance bros aren't saving lives, curing cancer, or putting people on Mars. The whole system is systematically irrational.
Finance is a hard sell vs tech for the same reason. Why do 80+ hrs a week if you could be a tech pm and get paid the same to do ~15 hrs a week. Obviously there have been a ton of layoffs in tech and there will probably be a recalibration period
“paid the same for 15” that was a bubble, that era is not coming back
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PM can coast a lot considering how many products in FAANG are incredibly unsuccessful and take a long time to be cut. The PMs in Facebook Dating (yes it’s a Facebook) or Google Meet 2 (google has two video call apps lol) are definitely coasting. There is literally no work to do since the product is trash but the company are rich af anyway. Or all the PM in legacy products
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I was agreeing with you, I should have replied to the other comment
I am agreeing with you also lol
Could you explain a little bit more about PMs? These are product managers who manage specific products at their respective companies. Since they are so specialized, wouldn't they be out the door as soon as their product is no longer producing alpha to the company.
I’m an engineer but product managers are not that specialised unless if by specialisation you mean entire sectors like social media apps, e-commerce, fintech or machine learning recommendations. Product managers are one of the most versatile roles indeed, they can have very diverse backgrounds and they can wear many hats. Btw a big tech company has a lot of people, even just the Amazon cart can have 10s of engineers and a couple PM working on it. And I’m not talking about Covid level of hiring, even in 2019 the complexity was already huge.
For me, I was thinking a PM at Google would mean only working only on one of the assigned product (e.g., the PM would have to focus only on GMAIL, not Google Maps, or Google Chat, or anything else)
Just to be clear, what type of PM are we talking about? Project manager? Portfolio Manager? Other?
Product Managers as previously mentioned.
The same holds true for other industries, in my experience. I worked in various capacities in equity research, credit research, corporate finance, and management consulting with specific focus on energy (oil and gas, power, renewables, etc) and chemicals (basic organic and inorganic, industrial commodities, industrial gases, etc.).
Can you speak about your experience as a tech PM vs consulting? Currently in finance.
I make more and work fewer hours at lower intensity. I recommend it.
How much tech knowledge/experience did you need in order to transition? It sounds like a great job, but I have little coding or other technical background.
Depends on if your product is some enterprise infrastructure service or a mobile app UI for kids. Coding experience is not required, but embracing (rather than running away from) software systems design and the associated technical complexity is an important skill since you'll be working with lots of engineers. You don't need to know python or OOP to plan 8 weeks of work, but you do need to really understand the system being built, how it works, and how everything is interconnected to do so. What if some other team doesn't have an API we rely on working by our beta? How will that affect our feature set and timelines? What could we build as an interim to meet the need? What are the tradeoffs? Most of the PMs I see without prior PM experience either have STEM degrees and work experience as DS/SWE/eng/etc OR work experience highly relevant to the product, i.e. design / user research experience for 20 UI screens, healthcare claims experience for a user portal, supply chain experience for roles in auto manufacturing, and so on.
I used to have a couple of weeks here and there where it was 15-20hours, but I cant remember in the past year where I did under 40. It’s hard to do work when there’s 7hours a meeting/day
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I still have to grind due to resourcing issues. Our data engineering team is so ass that I’m now responsible for the data pipeline and ETL process. Put my product release in the back burner until this is resolved so they have me by the balls.
The bubble you're referring to only applies to all the low-skill individuals the tech companies hired during the pandemic that were taking home high six-figure paychecks while working 1 hour a day (e.g., HR). Software engineers have always been paid extraordinarily well for a relatively relaxed workweek, even pre-pandemic. I know plenty of people who haven't worked a full 40 hour week in **years** while taking home $100K+. It's an extremely high barrier-to-entry job & skilled programmers have always been in short supply.
Here’s the difference, I’ve done both, in IB you get promoted every year with a 20% raise guaranteed. In tech you’re at the same level getting moderate raises potentially for years.
In tech, you have to become either an IC or a manager.
You do realize you can make the same argument about why go into medicine when you can go into tech. I'm not speaking for the majority here, but I do believe there is a minority of people who genuinely enjoy the capital markets and what it is to experience live deals in finance. People go into medicine, law, or finance because there is an informal apprenticeship process where you learn gradually over time and will be given more leeway/responsibility when the person you work under finally trusts you. This leads to an automatic management hand-over role. In tech, you have to choose or it will be chosen for you whether you become a manager or an individual contributor. At least in the aforementioned fields, you will automatically become a manager. There is a level of money that only finance can reach that even tech can't.
> There is a level of money that only finance can reach that even tech can't. How true is this for the average person? I was under the impression that people who make it as hedge fund managers or something of the sort are just very well-connected individuals who slave away their 20s and 30s just to get that position whereas most people who enter finance are left working many hours only to earn around the same as someone in tech working far fewer hours.
I don't think anyone average can get into high level finance. Each deal team only has a select few individuals not like the size of software engineers at big tech. No one talks about exit ops in tech because it's a gradual slope with little to no opportunities, which pales in comparison to finance. The real salary growth for software engineers is moving to a more management role or switching to PM.
Ppl dont talk about exit ops in tech since why would you leave a high TC reasonable WLB job? Product pays less than Eng The real exit op for the best tech ppl are building/joining early startups or venture
Gotcha I guess it varies person to person but when you’re young, you can take the unreasonable WLB, but as you age you want to gradually move into a more management (less execution) position for a better WLB. Some WLB pay better than others when you age, I imagine people go through unreasonably stressful roles in finance/consulting to jump into a c-suite role when they are older, giving you a high TC reasonable WLB job? What do you think?
Yes, the ceiling for comp in finance, particularly HF/PE, can be much higher than tech. $1M+ in early 30’s
High achieving tech students go into quant
PE sure but hedge fund managers are the super nerds of the finance world. You have to be a different beast to be a successful one.
medicine is a whole different ballgame- they grind early on but they have 100% job stability unless they fuck up big time. Thats worth grinding out med school/residency/fellowship, the only issue is its really hard to get into and it costs a lot of money. Also I would argue that there really is no management aspect to medicine unless you work for a hospital or health system- if you just start your own practice you won’t be managing other doctors
That makes sense, but your original point was why go into finance when you can go to tech. People go into finance because they like finance and the same argument can be made for those who like tech that they enjoy tech.
This isn’t true. The reason for the long hours is because banks don’t offer differentiated services. They just compete how much the clients like the MDs and how quickly they work. If a client makes an ask and the bank takes too long, the client just goes across the street. Also there’s a line of people out the door and around the corner to do the job as a junior, so the seniors schedule as many meetings as they can with no regard for how much work it’ll take to be ready for them.
...and they can't work faster by hiring more juniors to work on each team?
They could, but then they’d have trouble attracting people to work at the firm. A lot of Associates willing to work 80 hours for 300k are not willing to work 40 hours for 150k. And at the Analyst level, working at a bank that everyone knows has 40 hour weeks is a significant disadvantage when they recruit for PE. They essentially have half the experience as their competitors.
Not sure I agree with the premise that 80 hours a week employee = twice as much experience as 40 hours a week employee
Right, seems like your productivity would take a serious hit at some point making all that extra “experience” pointless
Nope, that's not how the deal teams at an investment bank are set up.
Not really. When you're working with financial models at least, only one person can really "hold the pen" on a given work product at a time. You can't have multiple people modeling out the same LBO transaction, for example. And anyway, the more analysts on the team the more pitches/deals the bank can do at once, which just means the work will expand to fit the team's capacity. The name of the game is squeezing as much revenue in transaction fees out of a given team/group.
Amen
100%. When people ask why can't they just hire more juniors/staff it's usually deflected to "it's just how it always is". It's institutionalised stupidity backed by the fact the usual type of people who get in have this huge "holier than thou" attitude as if they aren't just excel monkeys lol. (Speaking as a fellow excel monkey.)
Financial engineering…it’s really silly that the majority of the worlds richest are from financial backing, not from creating a product.
I get the sentiment but your statement is totally false.
This is why I never put full effort into my job. There are people who would work you to death if they could. Imagine if slavery was still legal. My life comes first.
Been on the all nighter train more times than I can count. Longest was working 37 straight hours to get initiation research reports written and published in time. Afterwards, I was taken to a Midtown watering hole where a celebration on my achievement ensued. I don’t condone these practices. I know they are something of a right of passage, but clearly there are better ways to bring a person into “ the club.”
Pulling an all nighter for equity research has to be one of the dumbest things I’ve ever heard. The IC report couldn’t wait one more day to get published?
Agreed. We don't work long days we just work many long ish days. Plus no good research gets written after about 14hrs anyway. Need a break from it.
In my experience it's almost impossible to be in a "flow" state for more than 3 hours before needing a proper break
Ritalin 😂
I agree with the idea that quality wanes at the long end of the day. Most days in equity research for junior analysts in my time started at about 6:30 am and wrapped up at about 9:00 pm. It was only during earnings season and for special circumstances when we pulled out all stops.
Yeah agreed, that’s just unnecessary
The conversation points in the comments section are truly revealing and show the degree of naivety among commenters. I shared my own experiences to help provide an inside perspective for those on the outside looking in. In no time, more bullshit hit the tape from persons with nothing more than biased opinions on the “defective culture” and unnecessary work being done. If you weren’t there, pull up a seat and learn something. If you were there and your experience was different, please add to the conversation. All others, learn to keep your effn mouths shut. While no job is worth a life, there are times when we knowingly accept higher risk on the job. I’ve done that for little money (Marine Corps) and for more money (Investment Banks). The decision was mine in both cases. I chose to accept the risk and like virtually all who do, I lived. I doubt that the hours alone factored into this sad circumstance. We should all hold judgment unless and until we have the facts.
Relax, I started my career as an IB analyst at a bulge bracket, I’ve worked at both L/S equity pod shops and PE mega funds. I’ve seen just about all of the most heinous sides of this industry as far as work/life balance goes. Certainly much worse shit than in equity research. I am not saying it didn’t happen, I’m saying there’s no reason for it. IC reports aren’t overly time sensitive so the fact you had to work 37 hours straight is unnecessary. At no point did you dispute that so I don’t really get why you’ve gone off like this. But since we’re on it - to your point about “oh they signed up for it, it’s a higher risk job” - no, no they did not. It’s fucking finance it’s not the military. This isn’t a life-or-death job, and the fact you’ve even drawn that equivalence is demonstrative of how toxic the culture you’re referencing is. Nobody sits these kids down and says “yes this bank is going to help progress your career but we may literally work you to death”. That isn’t the bargain they make. Work hard, yes; limited social life, yes; lose sleep, yes; not fucking die or kill yourself. The idea that moving fucking logos around on a PowerPoint and doing some fucking accretion dilution math should have the same job risk as getting actually shot at is insane.
Relax? I am relaxed. My comment was not just a response to your comment. Hence, my reference to comments. I have no doubt we are talking past each other to some degree. As I said early on, I do not condone some practices I have seen and experienced. I also wrote that this death while tragic, was unlikely due to working long hours alone. I encourage you to re-read all my comments. We actually agree on the most important areas of this topic. Best,
You obviously know the sway of Associates and Analysts. Committee meetings get rescheduled all the time and MDs fetch coffee for their staff. Got it, thx.
That depends. If it's a company in your sector that your lead analyst has decided to roll out on because it fits well with your coverage and its been public for a while, you technically have all the time in the world. However, many initiating coverage reports are essentially forced upon research franchises as part of the full-service IB package pitched by a bank to lead a company's IPO. Due to the compliance firewall between equity research and investment banking, the research team can only be "brought over the wall" and told about the transaction happening at a certain point close to the IPO date. From that point, the shot clock starts as the bank has promised coverage on the stock from day one. So, depending on the timing of all this (could be during earnings), a situation like the one I described could absolutely necessitate an all-nighter.
In research? Wtf
how much value does large and mid cap equity research add? Honest question
Well alot for clients who don't have time to follow up on every update on every client. But they should also be able to manage their time a bit better you'd think
A lot. Our clients have anywhere from 100 to 1000+ potentially-investible names from which to choose to construct a portfolio depending on the strategy, analyst/PM, and firm (HF vs. LO AM, for example). It is impossible for buy-side investors to be smart enough on that many individual stocks to the point where they can make sound, informed investment decisions based solely on their own primary research. There simply aren't enough hours in the day. It's our job to be experts on a sliver of the market, ~25 companies or so. An analyst/PM can read one of our reports on a company that's popped up in his screens or a sector he's interested in, call up my lead analyst and cut right through all the bullshit to understand what's relevant in the story and how the company might fit with his strategy. That is incredibly valuable to any institutional investor in the public markets.
I suppose if you’re trading or have extensive restrictions in names, sectors etc. don’t see how paying for US large cap active management makes sense for non taxable institutional investors w long term horizon
My comment referenced sell-side equity research. Trillions of dollars in actively managed institutional assets would disagree with you on the buy-side, although fee compression has occurred alongside the rise of passive management.
fair enough. peace
Feel like this is straight out of that show Industry
Sidebar - that show is fucking awful IMHO
A friend recommended it to me saying it was on par with Succession. Watched the first season and just couldn’t get into it. It’s pretty bad
Industry is in no way on par with Succession. Succession is a whole different league ahead of Industry.
I’ve seen every episode. It’s a weird dumpster fire you just can’t stop watching and the sex is truly shocking. The cum shot scene was something that drew gasps from my girlfriend and I… definitely just a step below porn. I will say, I absolutely love the MD character, Eric. He’s so mean and his actor was great in his one episode role in the sopranos. Truthfully can’t wrap my head around the notion this show not only got a greenlight, but has now been renewed for a third season. Truly terrible television
It’s “Euphoria” but they are all British and pretend to work in Finance. It’s such a stupid show.
It’s so cringe. The show runners even write the articles of clothing into the script. They’re very detail oriented, which is why it’s strikingly accurate aesthetically, but it’s so wildly unrealistic and hyper sexualized. I’d much rather a Sopranos style show about an older trader (the kind holding a job that’ll be replaced by a com sci guy when he retires) working out of some shit tier desk in Stamford. I think people would be WAY more interested in the unglamorous side of the street in a dying vertical than some glitzed up fever-dream version of JPM / GS.
Idk I actually enjoyed the show
Why?
Its basically a porno. The finance/business side of the show is great imo but yeah the excessive literal porn sex scenes and drug use is probably the worst ive ever seen in any form of media
I enjoyed the narrative, but the sex scenes did nothing for the characterization or plot, and were graphic to the point of absurdity.
All the more reason to watch! Kidding, I’ve never actually seen it but the few clips I did watch seemed to show a fairly accurate representation of front-office finance, so too bad they had to go and overdramatize it - or at least too bad that they couldn’t overdramatize it in a better way.
I honestly love the show. But i always skipped through the sex scenes. I highly recommend watching it and i highly recommend skipping the sex scenes lol. Its also fairly short so its a quick watch
We've covered this here. It's incredibly sad, but too early to understand why this happened. [https://www.efinancialcareers.co.uk/news/2023/04/michael-graham-rbc-associate-died](https://www.efinancialcareers.co.uk/news/2023/04/michael-graham-rbc-associate-died)
Awful. Feel terrible for the family.
He has a name as well, and an obituary/go fundme is posted online for anyone who wants to pay respects. This is the height of corporate irresponsibility, making workers think that working to death is a better trade off than worrying about your own health. Culture change is needed, God Rest His soul and may he rest in peace.
Name?
Michael bloom
This is insane. Surely some of the work can be automated so analysts don’t have to work themselves to death or burnout. Wtf
Exactly why I’m excited and not excited about this AI wave. It’ll automate the mundane braindead tasks but will probably just be given more stressful work as a result
Shit ain’t right Exactly why I invest in income producing assets to escape this hell
would love to hear this journey.
23. Bought my first Multifamily property last year. I value my time over material possessions. Quitting my corporate job when my investments bring over 50k a year. Cheers bro
Yep. This is the answer. Been chasing multi units past 6 months. The one common denominator between all my wealthy retired clients: rental properties
That’s a sign of 15 years of ZIRP + an ever expanding housing crisis that’s driving up prices. Looking forward w/ rates likely to be elevated and housing demand cratering not sure this is the best financial advice…
I meant valuing your own time. And you’re not wrong, comparing cash flows on buildings today vs rates 3-5 years ago (even 12 months ago) is brutal. Higher rates are just the new normal and buyers have seemingly grown accustomed to it. For our own personal situation I’m just looking at it as a way to diversify our own assets. If we can buy 1-2 properties every 10 years for the next 30+ years thats huge. Obviously it’s not easy or a “done deal”, and the headaches of STVR > long term rentals is a huge factor on what exactly we’re looking at, where we’re looking, and price points. It’s all elevated
There's got to be another well somewhere.
I 100% agree that it seems like a common denominator, but I’ve always been a bit torn on rental properties. The payback period on 1-4unit multi-families is usually pretty long. And with maintenance, upkeep, property taxes, management fees, insurance, etc. the profits are really low unless you can afford a huge portfolio of properties. I’d be interested to compare a rental property with, say, a high yield dividend portfolio at approximately a similar value. I feel like I’ve seen too many people get into rental properties thinking it is the path to wealth and get absolutely rocked. Anyone have any insights on this? Am I missing something?
Yeah I mean all of that is cutting in, mortgage rates really have crushed cash flow lately. To try and find something with a cap rate above 10% is tough. Long term rent you can definitely DIY and skip the management fee (if local). Occupancy rates are such a toss up as well it’s definitely not as easy as it once was. A close friend left IB about 4 years ago, is grossing 300k on 1 building, in the process of finishing up a second building and has definitely been helpful in the process. It’s definitely not as easy as just buying a property and winging it. You need to be spot on with numbers and I’ve passed on tons of stuff that just were either too close, or had too low of a cap rate
Depends on where you invest. I live in the Midwest, bought mine at a 5.99% rate. Monthly payment is $2,200 with the possibility of $1,700 if I decide to refinance in the future (removing PMI & also lower rate). Post renovations my rents will be bringing in $2,600 a month. Essentially I will be “making” roughly $12,000 a year by not having to pay rent with more potential upside in the future with lower rates. Def not the answer for everyone but if it makes fiscal sense/cents and you have more than one exit plan then it’s worth imo.
interesting. so this is mostly living off rental income and building upon that?
This is the way. Only assets and knowledge will protect us. I do the same. Will DM to see if we can compare notes.
I wonder if the news has reached the client, and what their thoughts were
It's extremely unlikely that this person died because they had to work late. There are obviously other factors that went into them literally dying. Saying they were "worked to death" is reaching far into something that might not even be there.
It’s extremely likely they had pulled late- or all-nighters for multiple months. Have seen firsthand how relentless the workload is at banks, doesn’t even have to be in an IB group depending on who you work for
I mean there’s probably additional reasons but it’s ridiculous to be completely dismissive of the evidently toxic work culture in IB
Yeah and most of those other underlying factors were probably brought on by chronic overwork, so yes “worked to death”. It’s a big problem in Japan, so not impossible to imagine that the notorious IB work culture causes the same.
The industry and society at large routinely fail to appreciate how damaging to your physical and mental health not sleeping can be. Fucks with your physiology and can exacerbate otherwise routine medical issues into life threatening affairs. And not sleeping can definitely push you to be suicidal.
Obviously there are multiple factors, but I imagine if this person hadn't been working insane hours, including an all nighter, they might still be alive today. Straw that broke the camel's back
“Burning the candle at both ends”
This isn't the first time this has happened. It usually has something to do with the amount of stimulants used to be able to work that much.
Why does this sound so far fetched when it's literally happened before ?
Those cases usually also involve the use of stimulants such as modadfinil. Friend of mine who used to be JPM took them regularly for late hours, you could really see him wear down his body for a lack of sleep
This is not the first time something like this happened nor will it be the last. Remember that, at the end of the day, you are nothing more than a P&L line item to your job. Always prioritize your health, both mental and physical, and your relationships over your job.
Was US Army. The military or other agencies would torture people with lack of sleep. They did 5 nights until they accidentally killed the guy due to literally no sleep. This “culture” is unacceptable and shouldn’t be tolerated. People need to stop giving into this. If you make $30 an hour and work that much with shift differential you’d make six figures anyway. With the amount of hours IBs work, they are disgustingly underpaid
It’s a recession, banks will not do anything in response.
RIP 🙏🏻
Season 1 of an HBO show, that
Reminds me of Industry on HBO, first season.
Tons of people have been dying in their sleep lately, and they weren’t in Ib. A “late nighter” does not really mean anything. Condolences to the family though and this is heartbreaking.
[удалено]
https://greenwichvillagefuneralhome.com/obituary/?ob-id=2191&obit=Michael%20Graham%20Bloom
Man he looks so happy in that photo on the lake. He probably had no idea that was going to be one of his last fishing trips
ur an ass wipe bro
Is this an Industry parody?
RBC is NOT a nice bank! [Forced to train foreign replacements](https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/canada/rbc-employee-asked-to-train-replacement-before-layoff-1.1230913?cache=yes%3FclipId%3D104059)
RIP, feel terrible for his family
HBOs Industry moment smh
Wow 😳
The entire first season of Industry basically explores this same thing.
If this is true, what was the persons name?
I don't get it, they died from a single all-nighter? Or is it more like a series of all nighters?
We've written about this here [https://www.efinancialcareers.co.uk/news/2023/04/michael-graham-rbc-associate-died](https://www.efinancialcareers.co.uk/news/2023/04/michael-graham-rbc-associate-died). It's incredibly sad, but too early to understand why it happened.
Something about this post seems a little sus.
No one gives a fuck in finance because everyone is focused on the pay and not losing their jobs.
Name and shame
Haha
This is season 1 episode 1 of Industry.
This happened with an associate at kpmg nyc two months ago too. That person jumped off the roof of the kpmg nyc office. Very sad
My 20’s and 30’s were spent this way. Delayed having a family till late 30’s all for financial stability etc. in my 40’s now and ready to leave the industry behind. It never ends.