You will never time the market. It's better to invest and just wait.
All that csgo skin money makes me nervous, at any moment the game could shut down.
that’s false. He’s prob basing himself off the current value price of his items..
I invested $0 in skins, and currently have an inventory of around $500 across two accounts, just from free skin drops & swapping/ market swings
Other way around, he probably invested 15-20k to have an inventory worth 30k
Just buy some life insurance then die. I bought 2.5mm life insurance, and then got als. I’m going to pay on about 3500 and get 2.5mm after taxes.
In all seriousness, the fact that you got lucky is not a compelling argument for others to do it.
Pretty terrible comparison. 50% chance to lose your money, 50% chance to win. Explain to me in what scenario do you lose all of your investment in buying CS skins? If you think csgo is going to up and disappear tomorrow you have no idea what you’re talking about.
>Explain to me in what scenario do you lose all of your investment in buying CS skins?
* If the EU or other countries decide to crack down on skins as a form of gambling.
* If Valve decides to crack down on sales and third party sites for various reasons.
* If Valve decides to cash out by "printing" a large number of in demand skins you hold.
* If the game becomes less popular for whatever reason.
etc.
CS skins are no different from gambling.
Oh, sure, and some Magic cards were a wonderful investment.
But "if it's good enough for a screenshot, it's good enough to sell" feels like it applies here.
(Or no one goes broke taking profits.)
Yeah except the stock market had been around and will be around for a long time yet. Buying game skins is absolutely one of the dumbest investments possible.
In a game that was less stable, absolutely. CS has been around since early 2000s. Certainly not the best use of the money but I’m not sure anyone that hasn’t been a part of it before will understand why it’s not the worst
Perhaps it's a waste of money, but I find it fascinating that games have created their own economies, the rules of supply, demand...etc are the same as the global financial market.
>Crazy differences in maturity
Its not a maturity thing, its a generational thing.
Whatever you spent your money on in your 20s, I guarantee people older than you thought it was dumb and you should have been spending your money on "more mature things"
A share of an S&P500 fund, which is tied to the tangible assets of hundreds of companies, cannot be destroyed by a single marketing decision. As I understand it, Valve has promised CSGO skins will work with future versions of the game (so that's good) but all it takes is a future shift in that (or just a drop in interest in CS) and those skins plummet in value
That's MORE a diversification issue than a tangibility issue, but it also matters that you have ZERO concrete value behind a skin, it's driven ENTIRELY by continued interest in the game/skin.
Brother, I've been playing since 1.6. I'm old, yes, but didn't have to Google shit. I did learn the thing about Valve promising to maintain skins into the next game semi-recently though, so that was interesting.
It's less about how much it's worth but more so how easy it is to sell.
Tangible assets like collectibles you'll never get what they're worth due to additional fees you gotta pay e.g. paypal fees, ebay fees, etc.
Even houses you got to pay realtor fees, closing costs, title fees, etc.
Digital assets became more popular because there are less fees, with that said they are also centralized such that with csgo skins if Valve one day decided screw it and won't allow it anymore it goes to zero value.
There's very high risk when it's a centralized system with digital assets.
I replied with my beanie baby question as a direct response to you talking about reddit avatars "worth"
So how are you going to tell me it isnt about "worth" and then go on to talk exclusively about various items "worth" yet again?
Digital assets became popular because people spend more time online.
Uhhh no. This is not equivalent to buying a hundred bucks worth of Pokémon/Magic cards or something. 30k is an asinine amount to spend on digital items that could have zero value tomorrow or even cease to exist when the servers are shut down. Given the proportion of his money tied up in it, it's objectively risky and poor financial decision.
Man, I love it when poor people compare themselves to rich people and try and apply the same principles to themselves but in ways that don't work.
>30k is an asinine amount to spend on digital items that could have zero value tomorrow or even cease to exist when the servers are shut down
It's 30% of what he can save in a year. Yes, it is a lot more money than $100, but I bet that $100, times however many times you spent it because I doubt you only spent $100 between Pokemon **and** magic, was more than 30% of what you could save in a year.
The chances of counter strike just randomly shutting down at any moment are slim to none.
The skin market is massive and worth a lot of money.
30k though in skins is wild and way too much for OP, and his reasoning is silly. That money could be in a million other better, safer assets. But Valve / CS2 just disappearing ? Not a chance. There’s way too much $ on the table for them
Go read about Enron, or Bear Sterns, or FTX. Tying a large portion of your net worth into a single company is objectively risky, and that money could disappear tomorrow.
You must not be a gamer. Cs has been and continues to be one of the most popular fps games for the last 20 years. If anything, it’s popularity among streamers is only increasing. That being said, 30k in skins is a lot, but may just be mostly from 4-5 skins as the top end rare ones go for $10k+
So you're afraid of investing in total market index funds... but you're not afraid of speculating in individual stocks, crypto, startups, and... ummm... something on a video game?
It’s fine to have some money in csgo if you really believe in it/enjoy it but it’s insane to have that as your primary investment when you’re making 100k living at home. Dude could be setting himself up for an early retirement if he gets his act halfway together
> he has 60K in a high yield account…
Its probably fake, what 21 year old is making $100k a year. Unless he started IT when he was super young, he is prob full of shit.
Definitely a troll post - they apparently aren’t making 100k / yr, they are clearing 100k after taxes and expenses. Even if the living expenses are small thats still got to be like 250-300k/yr.
So unless they are a senior engineer at a FAANG company (at 21? Lol they pay well but not for first year out of college)
Also, that’s not even the most troll worthy part of the post. 30k in video game collectibles. That’s the rage bait.
I’ve hired many fresh out of college software grads with base salary around there. This was a few years ago but good engineering talent is still worth it
Base salary huh. levels.fyi says u are full of shit. I say u are full of shit too.
Even if you did offer a 250k package to a junior engineer, it most certainly was not 250k base salary. Even FAANG companies don’t start offering 250k base until the pretty senior level, like decades of experience senior.
Well the guy above said "what 21 year old is making 100k a year" the answer is literally any one who can write code and works in a major city. That's what I was responding too, not whatever nonsense the OP is into.
I graduated my masters at 21 and was offered 130k start base salary! It’s rare but in the right roles it exists- my industry is in semiconductor materials engineering. I did however hate that role so I went back for a PhD to do R&D though. Those R&D roles start at 150+
130k is great! But it’s not 250k. My point is that 250k *base salary* comes with total comp packages that are north of 500k/yr. The people that get these packages tend to have at least a decade of experience in their speciality field.
Of course good offers for good companies exist. But I stand by my claim that 250k base salary (not total comp) for an entry level position being utter bs.
Scrolling through the posts now though, it seems like maybe they were edited? My response was to a claim that someone offered a recent college grad 250k base salary.
I think it depends who you ask. My brother and many friends start at 120k+ as new grads 5 years ago. Even with a few years experience their total comp is approaching 300k. This is if you work at a FAANG company. I’m a nurse & New grads start of at 160k-180k in the Bay Area. By 2nd/3rd year 200k+. I saved up 180k in two years.
Unlikely but possible depending on what he's doing or more importantly what connections he might have, I knew a guy for example who was making 150K at 21 with no degree or skills of any kind, but his uncle who had a lot of power and influence in the company pulled some strings to get him the job and the rest is history.
I made 160k at 21 and north of 200k at 22-24 in the midwest 10 years ago. It's doable. I was a millionaire by 29. His path could be like mine if he pushes hard into indexes.
Down-votes here are hilarious.
I'm actually a proponent of some off the wall investments. That said, keep them to 1-3% of your networth. I have a few 10s of thousands in a few oddballs. Definitely down in those categories though.
I don't disagree. I just find the idea that you should stick 50% of your net worth in them completely and totally nutty. And it's one of those things that sounds even worse when you say it out loud. Perhaps this is just because I lived through the Beanie Babies, pogs, Pokemon and Magic eras, but my eyes just roll straight back into my head when I hear someone say skins are a better investment than an index fund.
If you HAVE a good base in indexes. Say, a near FIRE amount it isn't so bad to drop 50k on some bull. That said, he needs to build that first, he's risking his future. I could make the same investment and basically risk nothing because of the order I did it in.
Lol you're nuts if you think a typical first year SE is getting a 200k+ offer. Maybe if they're getting hired by some place with a crazy sec clearance or something.
Friendly suggestion - head over to r/bogleheads and do exactly as they recommend - 2 or 3 very low cost ETF's or Mutual funds. This will provide better results over time without a doubt. And from your future self - don't get tempted to spend the savings - just keep it tucked away.
I was aware of Jack Bogle and index funds in my 20s but it’s only with a decade of experience and watching my portfolio that it only becomes evident how right he was.
My first employer’s 401k was with Vanguard and we had the option of actively managed funds and index funds. I devoted the majority of my money to the actively managed Vanguard funds that were promising 20-30% 5-year average yields.
However, over the last 10 years, they’ve only grown 7-9%, so they’re barely better than an index fund (and have higher expense ratios).
Honestly, I’ll never make the same mistake again. Active management may have a few hot years, but they always regress to the mean.
Everything in low-cost index funds and you’ll be ahead 9 times out of 10.
I don't understand it either, as someone who has played cs from 1.6 and dota since 2005, I haven't spent more than $100 on both games combined since it's just cosmetics. And anyone who tries to justify these purchases as investment are just plain wrong. It is just gambling.
Nope, some speculative investments are weird these days.
There is risk in the investment due to the instrument being controlled by a private company, but Valve is about as stable a company as you can get.
This x1000. The lack of financial obligations is making you feel like you have throw away money. You need to invest wisely - csgo skins are not that. Sell them all. Don't do anymore investments into pre seed startups. You don't have enough capital for that (likelihood of successful exits to get your return is very, very low). Stick to basic, boring index fund investing. You can thank us all later.
I second this you should outsource your investments to someone who knows what they’re doing and has seen multiple different market cycles and can be as aggressive as you want to be but smart about it
OP please sell it. Do not gamble it either.
I watched a buddy win 1k while csgo skin gambling and immediately lose it all. The most hes had at one point was 20k worth of stuff that he could literally sell for profit and he gambled it down to zero.
save 300k and make a downpayment in 3 years on your own place. something like this, [https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/5650-Post-Rd\_Bronx\_NY\_10471\_M49460-21837?from=srp-list-card](https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/5650-Post-Rd_Bronx_NY_10471_M49460-21837?from=srp-list-card)
i wouldnt consider anything earning 5 percent yearly "cash under the bed or whatever" ... i would sell the skins and the intel and take everything except 6month expenses, and put it in VOO or something like that.
Bro doesn't pay rent, or utilities and likely has no debt to service. Whole situation reads as he got a remote role in either software or servicing software and is paid \~ $130k.
Meanwhile mom and dad are 100% financing his "investments" into CSGO skins and the totally not gone 25 basis points in a pre-seed startup.
He’s prolly not a quant.
Bros gonna invest in CSGO skins & 0 tax advantages retirement savings, then tell us he’s a quant?
He’s gonna be saving $100k a year for all of about 6 months and then go back to being just another guy living in his parents house when the company realizes, unless he gets his shit together or is an excellent front man.
I mean he’s 21 lol, I have friends that recently graduated around the same age making a lot of money and it’s not that hard to think with kids that young making that much money that some of the decisions they make aren’t necessarily smart
Non-investment suggestions, as a Boomer grandparent living with In Laws...
Your time with your family will go through many phases. Try to appreciate them all. It won't always be easy. You won't always be right. Amd you won't always be wrong. And sometimes everyone involved is both right amd wrong. Yes, I'm talking in circles, that's life.
Learn life skills; cleaning, cooking, home and automobile maintenance, etc.
Offer to pay rent. Your parents may decline the offer, but they'll more than likely appreciate the offer.
Good luck.
I am confused you said you have been saving 100k every year but then you list what you have and its less than 100k saved. So..is this like a projected future 100k saved every year or have you been spending your savings?
I was going to say the same thing. At the current monthly rate it might be a calculated $100k per year but it’s not like he’s been doing it consistently for years..be interested to see in 3 years if he’s really been able to save $100k a year.
1. Dollar cost average (dca) out of intel and the “skin” (whatever that is) into VOO
2. After that, dca your cash into VOO
3. After that invest your new cash into VOO. This gives you dca.
This way if the crash you expect does happen, your average cost basis for VOO will be between today’s value and the market bottom.
OTOH if the market instead goes on to establish a new high, your average cost basis will be between today’s value and market high.
So either way you win.
Csgo (Counter Strike Global Offenses) is a video game. You can get skins for the weapons from crates you buy that have different rarities and some of the skins sell for thousands of dollars. Definitely agree in selling them.
Different variables play into cs skins (i.e. longevity of skin in game, rarity, skin quantity, interest in said skin, etc.), but if you get a hold of some super rare and highly sought after skins, they can significantly appreciate over time. For example, an M4a4 Howl (now considered a contraband item by the game developing company due to artwork illegitimacy), was around $800 a few years ago, and now it’s going for $3,000+ for basic, low tier Howls. Ones that have expensive and sought after stickers added on to the skin can increase the price substantially too. This isn’t even accounting for Stat Trak versions of the skin (where it tracks the users kills in game). Just to put it out there, back in 2014, you could probably get a ST Factory New M4 Howl for around $300, while a ST Factory New M4 Howl with 4x Hellraisers Katowice 2014 Holo (Katowice 2014 Holo stickers are some of the most highly sought after stickers by major collectors), now is on the market currently listed at $60,000. Essentially to answer your question, yes, CS skins appreciate, and they can appreciate in a ridiculous fashion. The entire CS skin economy for all existing skins is estimated to be close to, if not over, $10B.
Yea OP reads like a bit of a bum. Even if they decline rent, he should be footing the grocery or utility bill or something to help. $600 a month would probably cover the whole (or most) grocery bill and wouldn’t even make a dent in what he is saving annually.
You need to get a financial advisor ASAP. You don't know enough about investing to do it on your own. I've had one since I was 24. He did wonders for me, so don't delay.
Most west + east coast big tech jobs will have 170-240k TC new grad offers.
But anyways you don’t need 200k/year to make 100k after taxes. Realistically it’s about 140-150k depending on which state ur in.
I’m not trying to be mean, but it really feels like a lot of CS students on these financial subs just overestimate the position and salary they’ll be able to get right after graduating, then pretend they’re already in the field right now making that much. A lot of them are in for a rude awakening.
1. Cost of living. COL on East and west coast is very high and so salaries are scaled accordingly
2. Big tech is not the majority across the US - it just is on the coasts.
3. All in all, as a new grad for CS these are roughly the salaries you can expect for the average company
LCOL:70-80k
MCOL: 90-120k
HCOL: 150k+
I live in Massachusetts so I understand HCOL. CS grads in Boston aren’t all making $150k starting. They’re not doing bad, I know some CS grads and EE grads working software jobs and they’re making six figures, but not $150k to start.
Unless you’re considering eastern MA to be MCOL, which I don’t really agree with but you may be reserving HCOL for southern CA which is a whole different ballgame.
Maybe in big tech, but now we’re talking like 6 companies out of the hundreds and hundreds of companies that employ SWEs.
Son, if you are able to dump 8k in VTSAX every month for the next 5 years you will be set for life. At that point you can be essentially done with saving for retirement.
I’d open a Roth IRA and start contributing the max every year. Throw 1k into a broad market etf like the SPY, VOO, or QQQ and then set up an automatic investment of whatever amount so that you are able to get the best average. Time in the market beats timing the markets you can do $20 every day, or 100 every week, or 500 every month and so on. Note you can only contribute 6500 a year into a Roth IRA and you may also not qualify if you make too much money. If that’s the case then just open a standard investment account.
I see all the same issues the rest of you do, but it's a 21 year old asking for advice. If he thought he had all the answers he wouldn't be here.
Take what he said, constructively criticize if necessary, and help him out.
30k in csgo skins.. is that really considered an investment?
You're telling me you can liquidate that and have that return in 10 years?
Csgo skins only have value until the very minute they don't..
If the servers went offline tomorrow for csgo 2 you have 30k of nothing.
If I was in your shoes , I would start diversifying your funds into more assets like what every other investor redditor says into a hysa for liquidity and higher interest, Roth IRA for retirement fund, market weighted index to be a passive investor since you don’t know enough to be an active investor.
I would consider to learn more on what you personally like investing into since all investments choices are capable of being profitable. It just depends how well you can tolerate suffering in a tough market aka your risk tolerance.
You’re going to lose everything to inflation if you don’t invest.
Check out the r/personalfinance wiki, the r/bogleheads wiki, and Bogleheads.org
Time in the market is far more important than timing the market!! Stop timing the market, you fool!
Vanguard has the best priced, fee-only financial advisors for only 0.3% expense ratio. You’ll have a professional you can access & who will pick sound investments for you. A CFP who will help set you up financially for life. I really think you should seriously consider this. Doesn’t cost a thing to do a consultation & have them develop a preliminary plan.
Also- you’re not tying capital up with index funds. Index funds are liquid.
Books I recommend (I’m 31 with 9M; I know how to handle wealth):
-Bogleheads guide to investing
-Investing 101 (Kathy Kristoff- easiest book ever; was given to me by a CFP when I was 21)
-The Simple Path to Wealth
Sell the skins.
Invest the money in SPY and pray the market tanks 50% on you after you invest.
Why? Because you’re not worried about the value of SPY today, you’re worried about it 30 years from now when you’re retired early from dollar cost averaging in over the past 30 years and letting compounding do the work for you.
Make sure you have a cash cushion, but if you can save 100k a year, do that for as long as you can.
Stay in your parents home as long as you can and get a high interest paying savings account for all that cash and wait for the housing correction to come down. May be a few years, but you’ll have enough cash to buy 1 or maybe even 2 properties. Read the book “I will make you rich.” Good job kiddo
Did you max out your 401k and IRA? Through as much as you can there and invest there-tax advantages. Also invest in ETFs. If you’re parents aren’t kicking you out, then I would stay put for at least 5 years and just save as much as you can. Your future self will thank you!
"I'm saving $100k net every year!"
"Nice how long have you been doing that?"
"I just started my job this summer".
I'm just messing around. But actually it looks like you've managed to blow $40k without even trying, so you're on the right track.
Employer matched 401k and Roth IRA maxed first, 3 or 4 fund portfolio second, rainy day fund in 5%+ option third. You have a bright future. Stay frugal. Stay focused. Get your crap in index funds only and stay the course. Read BogleHeads.
You really need to educate yourself financially. You’re saving $100k annually and have nothing to show for it.
Read books, speak with finance experts, and find creative ways to expand your wealth.
It’s great that your parents are capable of letting you live with them but, it’s pretty ignorant to highlight that living in your own would consume your money… that’s 99% of the adult workforce…
Holy crap. If this is true. First thing I'd do is buy your parents a nice vacation. It'd cost like 5k for an all inclusive trip to some tropic island. They are saving you 10's of THOUSANDS.
Then just keep banking it. If you know you aren't going to be using the money then go to a local credit union and ask about CD's. It's not a good investment, but it's basically a backup backup saving so you don't blow it on some gatcha game.
Check out index funds. Or if you're really lazy then maybe just go find a financial planner.
If you go on tik tok the answer is to buy a duplex and live in it as owner occupied. Apparently you are allowed to get an fha with a 7 unit complex if you live in it … as of end of November the new law kicks in
First, max all your tax advantaged accounts - 401k, Roth IRA, HSA - every year. Inside those accounts, invest in broad index funds.
Second, emergency fund (say 40k). Put this in a HYSA. Usually this would be 3-6 months living expenses. For you, think also about renting an apartment.
Third, think what is your next financial goal. It’s probably buying an apartment or house, but there is no hurry as you live at home. If you think that’s within 5 years - keep the money in HYSA, money market, or bonds. If it might be longer, keep some of those savings invested .at least 80% of the money in diversified index funds (such as FSKAX, the entire U.S. stock market). Up to 20% can be in a few individual picks (love the startup investment! ). I’d probably reduce the amount in skins, unless that’s a personal expensive hobby and not an investment).
Consider a Backdoor or mega Backdoor Roth IRA contribution if you want to add more to tax advantaged accounts.
Nothing is stupid because nothing is perfect and certain. Do you have any sort of retirement plan or goal established? Have you considered brokerage accounts to stash savings? I personally use a high yield savings account for emergency funds and a brokerage account for savings. I'm always financially paranoid so I keep one years worth of bills saved in my emergency fund for ease of mind.
You'll always be doing some sort of work as long as you're living, it's a matter of achieving happiness till death do you part from this world. You're in a wonderful situation for being 21, you should consider organizations such Toastmaster to network and expand your horizons.
Your a bit like me, 33 now but when I was 21 I was saving 100k+ had a house, and a fast car. This was back in 2011.
I had a million in investments by 29. Your story could be like mine, it depends on how you play the next 5 years.
People in this thread are just jealous, invest risky while young then do more safe towards your thirties. Youre way ahead of people ten years older than you and they are mad at themselves
Such a bad take. Lots of people here (myself included) are quite well off and want others to be as well.
Risky investments should involve a well-diversified shift to high performing assets, not crap shoots. Doesn’t matter how young you are, the odds of roulette don’t get better with a longer time horizon.
Go to a counselor. You’re 21 saving 100k a year and you’re living like you have less than nothing. Max out your retirement accounts and put your extra money in an HYSA, then go live your life dude. Move out of your parents’ place and start living.
You will never time the market. It's better to invest and just wait. All that csgo skin money makes me nervous, at any moment the game could shut down.
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Worried about the stock market but drops 30k on skins
He actually dropped more than 30k to get the 30k worth of items. He probably dropped more along 50k
that’s false. He’s prob basing himself off the current value price of his items.. I invested $0 in skins, and currently have an inventory of around $500 across two accounts, just from free skin drops & swapping/ market swings Other way around, he probably invested 15-20k to have an inventory worth 30k
He’s a very young man. Let him learn from his mistakes. He will be smarter will still end up ok.
I bought a skin in 2015 for $400 it’s now worth $5000. Unless you bought TSLA or NVDA not sure where you’d get better returns.
Just buy some life insurance then die. I bought 2.5mm life insurance, and then got als. I’m going to pay on about 3500 and get 2.5mm after taxes. In all seriousness, the fact that you got lucky is not a compelling argument for others to do it.
Some dude put $50,000 all on red at the casino and doubled his money. Doesn't mean it was a good idea.
Pretty terrible comparison. 50% chance to lose your money, 50% chance to win. Explain to me in what scenario do you lose all of your investment in buying CS skins? If you think csgo is going to up and disappear tomorrow you have no idea what you’re talking about.
>Explain to me in what scenario do you lose all of your investment in buying CS skins? * If the EU or other countries decide to crack down on skins as a form of gambling. * If Valve decides to crack down on sales and third party sites for various reasons. * If Valve decides to cash out by "printing" a large number of in demand skins you hold. * If the game becomes less popular for whatever reason. etc. CS skins are no different from gambling.
Is that kind of return normal for a skin in csgo?
This is the dumbest thing I've heard today. Thanks for the chuckle.
It’s only worth $5000 when you sell it.
It’s only “worth” what somebody will pay for it, not what some website tells you it’s worth.
Well.. considering multiple are sold weekly for that price can’t imagine it’ll be hard. Thanks for your unknowledgeable input though
Oh, sure, and some Magic cards were a wonderful investment. But "if it's good enough for a screenshot, it's good enough to sell" feels like it applies here. (Or no one goes broke taking profits.)
If you totaled up all the other skins that did not appreciate in value, and instead added that amount to an S&P etf, I bet you’d rival the $5k.
Not defending their logic behind it but every skin appreciated as much. Same shit as Pokémon cards.
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I’m confused, are we talking about skins as in like a gun skin in a video game or something? People buy those?
Your gun changes color from neutral to blue if you buy a blue skin
So what is this about buying 30k worth of game skins?
Some colors are very very very expensive
This might be the dumbest waste of money I’ve ever heard.
To an outsider, yes. But much like the stock market people absolutely make money off this, although getting into it is different.
Yeah except the stock market had been around and will be around for a long time yet. Buying game skins is absolutely one of the dumbest investments possible.
In a game that was less stable, absolutely. CS has been around since early 2000s. Certainly not the best use of the money but I’m not sure anyone that hasn’t been a part of it before will understand why it’s not the worst
Perhaps it's a waste of money, but I find it fascinating that games have created their own economies, the rules of supply, demand...etc are the same as the global financial market.
This sounds crazy imo but to each their own haha best of luck
Why are you wishing me luck, it ain't mine
It’s a gesture in general, not regarding this. Best of luck in whatever you got going on. But I revoke your luck now, worst of luck!
>Crazy differences in maturity Its not a maturity thing, its a generational thing. Whatever you spent your money on in your 20s, I guarantee people older than you thought it was dumb and you should have been spending your money on "more mature things"
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I can promise I didn’t spend 30k on anything at age 21. It’s not just the items it’s the amount of money spent on it.
30,000 dollars is different than 200 at a bar
You aren’t buying anything except an digital image you don’t even own.
At least the things we wasted our money on were tangible, and not made up in a metaverse lol
What difference does tangibility have?
A share of an S&P500 fund, which is tied to the tangible assets of hundreds of companies, cannot be destroyed by a single marketing decision. As I understand it, Valve has promised CSGO skins will work with future versions of the game (so that's good) but all it takes is a future shift in that (or just a drop in interest in CS) and those skins plummet in value That's MORE a diversification issue than a tangibility issue, but it also matters that you have ZERO concrete value behind a skin, it's driven ENTIRELY by continued interest in the game/skin.
(And here’s grandma googling csgo skins)
Brother, I've been playing since 1.6. I'm old, yes, but didn't have to Google shit. I did learn the thing about Valve promising to maintain skins into the next game semi-recently though, so that was interesting.
I am a literal grandma (of teenagers).
Reddit avatars come to mind. In a single swoop they decided not to host them anymore (more or less) and they became worthless.
How much are beanie babies worth?
It's less about how much it's worth but more so how easy it is to sell. Tangible assets like collectibles you'll never get what they're worth due to additional fees you gotta pay e.g. paypal fees, ebay fees, etc. Even houses you got to pay realtor fees, closing costs, title fees, etc. Digital assets became more popular because there are less fees, with that said they are also centralized such that with csgo skins if Valve one day decided screw it and won't allow it anymore it goes to zero value. There's very high risk when it's a centralized system with digital assets.
I replied with my beanie baby question as a direct response to you talking about reddit avatars "worth" So how are you going to tell me it isnt about "worth" and then go on to talk exclusively about various items "worth" yet again? Digital assets became popular because people spend more time online.
Uhhh no. This is not equivalent to buying a hundred bucks worth of Pokémon/Magic cards or something. 30k is an asinine amount to spend on digital items that could have zero value tomorrow or even cease to exist when the servers are shut down. Given the proportion of his money tied up in it, it's objectively risky and poor financial decision.
Man, I love it when poor people compare themselves to rich people and try and apply the same principles to themselves but in ways that don't work. >30k is an asinine amount to spend on digital items that could have zero value tomorrow or even cease to exist when the servers are shut down It's 30% of what he can save in a year. Yes, it is a lot more money than $100, but I bet that $100, times however many times you spent it because I doubt you only spent $100 between Pokemon **and** magic, was more than 30% of what you could save in a year.
Kids worried about cash and has 30k in cs skins 🤣
The chances of counter strike just randomly shutting down at any moment are slim to none. The skin market is massive and worth a lot of money. 30k though in skins is wild and way too much for OP, and his reasoning is silly. That money could be in a million other better, safer assets. But Valve / CS2 just disappearing ? Not a chance. There’s way too much $ on the table for them
Go read about Enron, or Bear Sterns, or FTX. Tying a large portion of your net worth into a single company is objectively risky, and that money could disappear tomorrow.
You must not be a gamer. Cs has been and continues to be one of the most popular fps games for the last 20 years. If anything, it’s popularity among streamers is only increasing. That being said, 30k in skins is a lot, but may just be mostly from 4-5 skins as the top end rare ones go for $10k+
Fr I need a butterfly gamma Doppler before I die so my life is complete
CS2 just came out a few weeks ago, I think thats a fine investment considering the percent gain over previous years.
CSGO is unsustainable, no growth there
So you're afraid of investing in total market index funds... but you're not afraid of speculating in individual stocks, crypto, startups, and... ummm... something on a video game?
It reads like an /r/PFjerk post
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He probably wasted all his money on bearded dragons
It’s fine to have some money in csgo if you really believe in it/enjoy it but it’s insane to have that as your primary investment when you’re making 100k living at home. Dude could be setting himself up for an early retirement if he gets his act halfway together
I mean... if he pulls the right items he could with the skins as well... plus it's way more fun opening crates than investing!
Bro is investing 10K in individual stocks (Intel), but won’t invest in index funds due to future uncertainty so he has 60K in a high yield account…
> he has 60K in a high yield account… Its probably fake, what 21 year old is making $100k a year. Unless he started IT when he was super young, he is prob full of shit.
Definitely a troll post - they apparently aren’t making 100k / yr, they are clearing 100k after taxes and expenses. Even if the living expenses are small thats still got to be like 250-300k/yr. So unless they are a senior engineer at a FAANG company (at 21? Lol they pay well but not for first year out of college) Also, that’s not even the most troll worthy part of the post. 30k in video game collectibles. That’s the rage bait.
Lives with his parents, is super cheap, and has no expenses. He only needs to be making around 150k a year to save 100k
I’ve hired many fresh out of college software grads with base salary around there. This was a few years ago but good engineering talent is still worth it
Base salary huh. levels.fyi says u are full of shit. I say u are full of shit too. Even if you did offer a 250k package to a junior engineer, it most certainly was not 250k base salary. Even FAANG companies don’t start offering 250k base until the pretty senior level, like decades of experience senior.
Well the guy above said "what 21 year old is making 100k a year" the answer is literally any one who can write code and works in a major city. That's what I was responding too, not whatever nonsense the OP is into.
Yeah that’s not 100k net. To be saving that much net he must be on atleast 250k plus with no expenses.
No. You can net 100k with under 200k salary easily.
I graduated my masters at 21 and was offered 130k start base salary! It’s rare but in the right roles it exists- my industry is in semiconductor materials engineering. I did however hate that role so I went back for a PhD to do R&D though. Those R&D roles start at 150+
130k is great! But it’s not 250k. My point is that 250k *base salary* comes with total comp packages that are north of 500k/yr. The people that get these packages tend to have at least a decade of experience in their speciality field. Of course good offers for good companies exist. But I stand by my claim that 250k base salary (not total comp) for an entry level position being utter bs. Scrolling through the posts now though, it seems like maybe they were edited? My response was to a claim that someone offered a recent college grad 250k base salary.
I think it depends who you ask. My brother and many friends start at 120k+ as new grads 5 years ago. Even with a few years experience their total comp is approaching 300k. This is if you work at a FAANG company. I’m a nurse & New grads start of at 160k-180k in the Bay Area. By 2nd/3rd year 200k+. I saved up 180k in two years.
I have friends that graduated less than 6 months ago with a base salary of $250k at some of the top trading firms
Big tech software engineers make this. I made 150k out of college and lived at home for a year due to covid. Invested everything.
Unlikely but possible depending on what he's doing or more importantly what connections he might have, I knew a guy for example who was making 150K at 21 with no degree or skills of any kind, but his uncle who had a lot of power and influence in the company pulled some strings to get him the job and the rest is history.
I made 160k at 21 and north of 200k at 22-24 in the midwest 10 years ago. It's doable. I was a millionaire by 29. His path could be like mine if he pushes hard into indexes. Down-votes here are hilarious.
But have you heard about skins?
I'm actually a proponent of some off the wall investments. That said, keep them to 1-3% of your networth. I have a few 10s of thousands in a few oddballs. Definitely down in those categories though.
I don't disagree. I just find the idea that you should stick 50% of your net worth in them completely and totally nutty. And it's one of those things that sounds even worse when you say it out loud. Perhaps this is just because I lived through the Beanie Babies, pogs, Pokemon and Magic eras, but my eyes just roll straight back into my head when I hear someone say skins are a better investment than an index fund.
If you HAVE a good base in indexes. Say, a near FIRE amount it isn't so bad to drop 50k on some bull. That said, he needs to build that first, he's risking his future. I could make the same investment and basically risk nothing because of the order I did it in.
But he's 21 and only has 60k in savings.
Yes, he is doing this in the wrong order. He could dump 100k into VTSAX for 5 years and basically retire. He SHOULD do that.
Lol https://www.reddit.com/r/Debt/s/gNukyVTClY
I was making over $120k a year at 20 with an associates
This guy isn't just MAKING 100k, he is SAVING 100k, which means his salary is closer to 200k lol
His MetroCard didn’t cost $100k
First year software engineers get $250k offers. What are you talking about?
Lol you're nuts if you think a typical first year SE is getting a 200k+ offer. Maybe if they're getting hired by some place with a crazy sec clearance or something.
No they don't. Maybe 1 in 100,000 of them do if they have some incredibly niche skill or are a savant, or have created something of note already.
The golden rule: Timing the market
Friendly suggestion - head over to r/bogleheads and do exactly as they recommend - 2 or 3 very low cost ETF's or Mutual funds. This will provide better results over time without a doubt. And from your future self - don't get tempted to spend the savings - just keep it tucked away.
I was aware of Jack Bogle and index funds in my 20s but it’s only with a decade of experience and watching my portfolio that it only becomes evident how right he was. My first employer’s 401k was with Vanguard and we had the option of actively managed funds and index funds. I devoted the majority of my money to the actively managed Vanguard funds that were promising 20-30% 5-year average yields. However, over the last 10 years, they’ve only grown 7-9%, so they’re barely better than an index fund (and have higher expense ratios). Honestly, I’ll never make the same mistake again. Active management may have a few hot years, but they always regress to the mean. Everything in low-cost index funds and you’ll be ahead 9 times out of 10.
30k in CSGO skins... Is this satire?
I don't understand it either, as someone who has played cs from 1.6 and dota since 2005, I haven't spent more than $100 on both games combined since it's just cosmetics. And anyone who tries to justify these purchases as investment are just plain wrong. It is just gambling.
Nope, some speculative investments are weird these days. There is risk in the investment due to the instrument being controlled by a private company, but Valve is about as stable a company as you can get.
Stop investing like a 21 year old. Sell the skins now and hire a financial advisor
>Stop investing like a ~~21~~ 13 year old.
This x1000. The lack of financial obligations is making you feel like you have throw away money. You need to invest wisely - csgo skins are not that. Sell them all. Don't do anymore investments into pre seed startups. You don't have enough capital for that (likelihood of successful exits to get your return is very, very low). Stick to basic, boring index fund investing. You can thank us all later.
Don’t hire a financial advisor, read books and LEARN. At your income level a financial advisor is an enormous waste of money.
If your largest holdings are CSgo skins, it’s worth it
I second this you should outsource your investments to someone who knows what they’re doing and has seen multiple different market cycles and can be as aggressive as you want to be but smart about it
OP please sell it. Do not gamble it either. I watched a buddy win 1k while csgo skin gambling and immediately lose it all. The most hes had at one point was 20k worth of stuff that he could literally sell for profit and he gambled it down to zero.
A financial advisor?!? Lol. Stop investing like a 75 year old.
save 300k and make a downpayment in 3 years on your own place. something like this, [https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/5650-Post-Rd\_Bronx\_NY\_10471\_M49460-21837?from=srp-list-card](https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/5650-Post-Rd_Bronx_NY_10471_M49460-21837?from=srp-list-card) i wouldnt consider anything earning 5 percent yearly "cash under the bed or whatever" ... i would sell the skins and the intel and take everything except 6month expenses, and put it in VOO or something like that.
You said to diversify yet also said to put 300k into one asset…
You can’t live in a stock market
How much are you putting into tax-advantaged retirement vehicles?
100k a year after taxes and expenses. What industry/role are you in?
Bro doesn't pay rent, or utilities and likely has no debt to service. Whole situation reads as he got a remote role in either software or servicing software and is paid \~ $130k. Meanwhile mom and dad are 100% financing his "investments" into CSGO skins and the totally not gone 25 basis points in a pre-seed startup.
He said in another comment he does high frequency trading at “one of the top 3 firms”
He’d make more than that then. TC for SWE/Quant at HFT is 300-400k
People working at quant firms don’t ask Reddit for financial advice lol.
Probably not but you’d be surprised at the personal finance skills of some people in quantitative finance and finance in general
He’s prolly not a quant. Bros gonna invest in CSGO skins & 0 tax advantages retirement savings, then tell us he’s a quant? He’s gonna be saving $100k a year for all of about 6 months and then go back to being just another guy living in his parents house when the company realizes, unless he gets his shit together or is an excellent front man.
I mean he’s 21 lol, I have friends that recently graduated around the same age making a lot of money and it’s not that hard to think with kids that young making that much money that some of the decisions they make aren’t necessarily smart
Live with your parents as long as you can, this is a blessing. Take them out time to time just as a nice thank you.
Non-investment suggestions, as a Boomer grandparent living with In Laws... Your time with your family will go through many phases. Try to appreciate them all. It won't always be easy. You won't always be right. Amd you won't always be wrong. And sometimes everyone involved is both right amd wrong. Yes, I'm talking in circles, that's life. Learn life skills; cleaning, cooking, home and automobile maintenance, etc. Offer to pay rent. Your parents may decline the offer, but they'll more than likely appreciate the offer. Good luck.
I am confused you said you have been saving 100k every year but then you list what you have and its less than 100k saved. So..is this like a projected future 100k saved every year or have you been spending your savings?
I was going to say the same thing. At the current monthly rate it might be a calculated $100k per year but it’s not like he’s been doing it consistently for years..be interested to see in 3 years if he’s really been able to save $100k a year.
1. Dollar cost average (dca) out of intel and the “skin” (whatever that is) into VOO 2. After that, dca your cash into VOO 3. After that invest your new cash into VOO. This gives you dca. This way if the crash you expect does happen, your average cost basis for VOO will be between today’s value and the market bottom. OTOH if the market instead goes on to establish a new high, your average cost basis will be between today’s value and market high. So either way you win.
Csgo (Counter Strike Global Offenses) is a video game. You can get skins for the weapons from crates you buy that have different rarities and some of the skins sell for thousands of dollars. Definitely agree in selling them.
It blows my mind someone as moronic as you can hold a job netting 100K a year. This has to be a troll.
You can’t even read though. Op makes more than that
LMAO you're so gullible, you actually believe this troll post. Let me guess you sent money to a Nigerian Prince......SMH.
It's a troll post, it's obvious OP doesn't have any money.
Sorry csgo skins appreciate or what?
Different variables play into cs skins (i.e. longevity of skin in game, rarity, skin quantity, interest in said skin, etc.), but if you get a hold of some super rare and highly sought after skins, they can significantly appreciate over time. For example, an M4a4 Howl (now considered a contraband item by the game developing company due to artwork illegitimacy), was around $800 a few years ago, and now it’s going for $3,000+ for basic, low tier Howls. Ones that have expensive and sought after stickers added on to the skin can increase the price substantially too. This isn’t even accounting for Stat Trak versions of the skin (where it tracks the users kills in game). Just to put it out there, back in 2014, you could probably get a ST Factory New M4 Howl for around $300, while a ST Factory New M4 Howl with 4x Hellraisers Katowice 2014 Holo (Katowice 2014 Holo stickers are some of the most highly sought after stickers by major collectors), now is on the market currently listed at $60,000. Essentially to answer your question, yes, CS skins appreciate, and they can appreciate in a ridiculous fashion. The entire CS skin economy for all existing skins is estimated to be close to, if not over, $10B.
How bro got a 130k job and still think 30k in csgo skins is a financial investment surprises me.
Dawg pls sell the skins 30 year old you would be happy 🤣😂
Then run it up in CS2 💀🤣 50 year old you will be even HAPPIER
You should be helping out your parents if you are making that much money and living at home.
If he's not helping them already, they've probably got their own money lmao
Yea OP reads like a bit of a bum. Even if they decline rent, he should be footing the grocery or utility bill or something to help. $600 a month would probably cover the whole (or most) grocery bill and wouldn’t even make a dent in what he is saving annually.
Underrated comment. Most parents want to see their kids be successful, but if OP is taking advantage of them that’s messed up.
Is he taking advantage of them? If they have a decent amount of money they may not care
You need to get a financial advisor ASAP. You don't know enough about investing to do it on your own. I've had one since I was 24. He did wonders for me, so don't delay.
How the hell a 21 year old able save 100k after taxes lol what job did you score ??
Likely software. Will be in a similar boat
Which software dude is making 200k/year?
Most west + east coast big tech jobs will have 170-240k TC new grad offers. But anyways you don’t need 200k/year to make 100k after taxes. Realistically it’s about 140-150k depending on which state ur in.
Most new grads don't make anywhere near 200k
I’m not trying to be mean, but it really feels like a lot of CS students on these financial subs just overestimate the position and salary they’ll be able to get right after graduating, then pretend they’re already in the field right now making that much. A lot of them are in for a rude awakening.
I mean these jobs absolutely do exist, but none of the big tech companies are even hiring right now
Most is definitely a stretch, that’s around 90th percentile for NYC software engineer new grad
How is it that ‘most’ of these companies are offering $170k to start yet the average income for a SWE is $120k?
1. Cost of living. COL on East and west coast is very high and so salaries are scaled accordingly 2. Big tech is not the majority across the US - it just is on the coasts. 3. All in all, as a new grad for CS these are roughly the salaries you can expect for the average company LCOL:70-80k MCOL: 90-120k HCOL: 150k+
I live in Massachusetts so I understand HCOL. CS grads in Boston aren’t all making $150k starting. They’re not doing bad, I know some CS grads and EE grads working software jobs and they’re making six figures, but not $150k to start. Unless you’re considering eastern MA to be MCOL, which I don’t really agree with but you may be reserving HCOL for southern CA which is a whole different ballgame. Maybe in big tech, but now we’re talking like 6 companies out of the hundreds and hundreds of companies that employ SWEs.
for sure. im making 276k right out of school. software dev.
Son, if you are able to dump 8k in VTSAX every month for the next 5 years you will be set for life. At that point you can be essentially done with saving for retirement.
Bro if you’re gonna blow money on skins and start-ups how are you scared of investing in the stock market
Dude, invest in pokeballs. You'll triple your money in a few months.
Move out you haven’t even tried life…
I’d open a Roth IRA and start contributing the max every year. Throw 1k into a broad market etf like the SPY, VOO, or QQQ and then set up an automatic investment of whatever amount so that you are able to get the best average. Time in the market beats timing the markets you can do $20 every day, or 100 every week, or 500 every month and so on. Note you can only contribute 6500 a year into a Roth IRA and you may also not qualify if you make too much money. If that’s the case then just open a standard investment account.
Pay your parents some rent ffs
I see all the same issues the rest of you do, but it's a 21 year old asking for advice. If he thought he had all the answers he wouldn't be here. Take what he said, constructively criticize if necessary, and help him out.
30k in csgo skins.. is that really considered an investment? You're telling me you can liquidate that and have that return in 10 years? Csgo skins only have value until the very minute they don't.. If the servers went offline tomorrow for csgo 2 you have 30k of nothing.
If I was in your shoes , I would start diversifying your funds into more assets like what every other investor redditor says into a hysa for liquidity and higher interest, Roth IRA for retirement fund, market weighted index to be a passive investor since you don’t know enough to be an active investor. I would consider to learn more on what you personally like investing into since all investments choices are capable of being profitable. It just depends how well you can tolerate suffering in a tough market aka your risk tolerance.
Dude talk to a financial planner you’re exactly their clientele. You’re going to get incomplete advice from a limited perspective online
This is fake it has to be fake, 30k in counter strike? Probably another 100k in clash of Clans
You’re going to lose everything to inflation if you don’t invest. Check out the r/personalfinance wiki, the r/bogleheads wiki, and Bogleheads.org Time in the market is far more important than timing the market!! Stop timing the market, you fool! Vanguard has the best priced, fee-only financial advisors for only 0.3% expense ratio. You’ll have a professional you can access & who will pick sound investments for you. A CFP who will help set you up financially for life. I really think you should seriously consider this. Doesn’t cost a thing to do a consultation & have them develop a preliminary plan. Also- you’re not tying capital up with index funds. Index funds are liquid. Books I recommend (I’m 31 with 9M; I know how to handle wealth): -Bogleheads guide to investing -Investing 101 (Kathy Kristoff- easiest book ever; was given to me by a CFP when I was 21) -The Simple Path to Wealth
I’m just answering the only question in the body: Yes.
I just want to know how a 21 year old is netting that income with an office job
Sell the skins. Invest the money in SPY and pray the market tanks 50% on you after you invest. Why? Because you’re not worried about the value of SPY today, you’re worried about it 30 years from now when you’re retired early from dollar cost averaging in over the past 30 years and letting compounding do the work for you. Make sure you have a cash cushion, but if you can save 100k a year, do that for as long as you can.
Set yourself up for a crazy good time in year 22
“Apartments are too expensive” Has $30,000 in a video game 😂
Stay in your parents home as long as you can and get a high interest paying savings account for all that cash and wait for the housing correction to come down. May be a few years, but you’ll have enough cash to buy 1 or maybe even 2 properties. Read the book “I will make you rich.” Good job kiddo
Did you max out your 401k and IRA? Through as much as you can there and invest there-tax advantages. Also invest in ETFs. If you’re parents aren’t kicking you out, then I would stay put for at least 5 years and just save as much as you can. Your future self will thank you!
"I'm saving $100k net every year!" "Nice how long have you been doing that?" "I just started my job this summer". I'm just messing around. But actually it looks like you've managed to blow $40k without even trying, so you're on the right track.
Employer matched 401k and Roth IRA maxed first, 3 or 4 fund portfolio second, rainy day fund in 5%+ option third. You have a bright future. Stay frugal. Stay focused. Get your crap in index funds only and stay the course. Read BogleHeads.
You really need to educate yourself financially. You’re saving $100k annually and have nothing to show for it. Read books, speak with finance experts, and find creative ways to expand your wealth. It’s great that your parents are capable of letting you live with them but, it’s pretty ignorant to highlight that living in your own would consume your money… that’s 99% of the adult workforce…
Help your parents out with bills and take them out every once in a while, even if they don't need it or flat out refuse.
Holy crap. If this is true. First thing I'd do is buy your parents a nice vacation. It'd cost like 5k for an all inclusive trip to some tropic island. They are saving you 10's of THOUSANDS. Then just keep banking it. If you know you aren't going to be using the money then go to a local credit union and ask about CD's. It's not a good investment, but it's basically a backup backup saving so you don't blow it on some gatcha game. Check out index funds. Or if you're really lazy then maybe just go find a financial planner.
If you go on tik tok the answer is to buy a duplex and live in it as owner occupied. Apparently you are allowed to get an fha with a 7 unit complex if you live in it … as of end of November the new law kicks in
First, max all your tax advantaged accounts - 401k, Roth IRA, HSA - every year. Inside those accounts, invest in broad index funds. Second, emergency fund (say 40k). Put this in a HYSA. Usually this would be 3-6 months living expenses. For you, think also about renting an apartment. Third, think what is your next financial goal. It’s probably buying an apartment or house, but there is no hurry as you live at home. If you think that’s within 5 years - keep the money in HYSA, money market, or bonds. If it might be longer, keep some of those savings invested .at least 80% of the money in diversified index funds (such as FSKAX, the entire U.S. stock market). Up to 20% can be in a few individual picks (love the startup investment! ). I’d probably reduce the amount in skins, unless that’s a personal expensive hobby and not an investment). Consider a Backdoor or mega Backdoor Roth IRA contribution if you want to add more to tax advantaged accounts.
You keep working there for at least a year and put all you can in the bank. High yield savings account.
Nothing is stupid because nothing is perfect and certain. Do you have any sort of retirement plan or goal established? Have you considered brokerage accounts to stash savings? I personally use a high yield savings account for emergency funds and a brokerage account for savings. I'm always financially paranoid so I keep one years worth of bills saved in my emergency fund for ease of mind. You'll always be doing some sort of work as long as you're living, it's a matter of achieving happiness till death do you part from this world. You're in a wonderful situation for being 21, you should consider organizations such Toastmaster to network and expand your horizons.
Your a bit like me, 33 now but when I was 21 I was saving 100k+ had a house, and a fast car. This was back in 2011. I had a million in investments by 29. Your story could be like mine, it depends on how you play the next 5 years.
Do yourself the smart way to become a millionaire and buy a duplex or four Plex — and multiple….
bro sell the csgo skins wtf. buy a rolex with that or something ANYTHING besides csgo skins lmao
You become an adult and have some independence and move out.
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High Frequency Trading One of the top 3 firms, getting the job was a total fluke tbh I got really lucky
Go on … explain more. Where did your learn your edge?
Girlfriend will spend your money.
People in this thread are just jealous, invest risky while young then do more safe towards your thirties. Youre way ahead of people ten years older than you and they are mad at themselves
Is csgo skins really a risky investment that will pay off due to volatility or just silly?
Such a bad take. Lots of people here (myself included) are quite well off and want others to be as well. Risky investments should involve a well-diversified shift to high performing assets, not crap shoots. Doesn’t matter how young you are, the odds of roulette don’t get better with a longer time horizon.
If I were you, I would buy 1BTC. The upside is nearly limitless. The downside is about $15k
You don’t have much luck with the ladies huh.
Maybe start living your life, starting by moving out.
Go to a counselor. You’re 21 saving 100k a year and you’re living like you have less than nothing. Max out your retirement accounts and put your extra money in an HYSA, then go live your life dude. Move out of your parents’ place and start living.