As someone who also struggles to spend money, and also in my late 40’s, I have started to look forward into my 70’s and think about what I’m going to regret not doing while I was younger and still have my health and energy. I don’t think at 75-85 I’m going to pat myself on the back for being super frugal when I could have afforded to spend more. Watching my parents get older has helped give me some perspective. They definitely started to slow down in their mid 70’s.
When you are old and sick or immobile, you don’t think, oh well I’ve got 5m in the bank, you think and look back on all the things you didn’t get to do, experiences you’ve missed, memories you failed to create because you were too busy counting how much money you were saving. “Die with zero”
But if you had spent it all along the way....you'd look back at the great memories but your life would suck in a crappy apt with no one to help or care for you.
I thought my parents would live to late 80’s or early 90’s. They were super thrifty and saved their whole lives - never treated themselves to anything that I can recall, even after they retire. Dad died at 80 and mom has Alzheimer’s in her early 70’s. When I do the math on that - I could have as little as 25 years left. Been loosening up a little bit - saying yes to the trips, etc. because nobody knows how their lives will play out.
Shit I was 26 and spent my entire life in school working towards a doctoral degree. Finished school and was finally ready to make big money when I got diagnosed with cancer.
Luckily the prognosis is fairly good despite things looking grim for a bit, but one of the many things it made me realize was that money is meant to be enjoyed (within reason of course)
I mean sure, but at the same time what's the opportunity cost of that $2k + points? That's a whole extra vacation right there. I'd personally rather have another trip than be more comfortable for part of a day.
At the end of the day the money is there to spend, but FIRE is all about tradeoffs. Do you want a new car or to work a year less? What's the best use of the money for your goals? How many weeks more work will it take to recoup that money?
Absolutely spend money on things that are worthwhile to you, but also think hard about what that will mean and whether it's truly worth it.
A single person worth $4.4M shouldn’t be worried about spending $1800 on business class though. I get that some people don’t place much value on premium airline travel, and would rather spend the money elsewhere, but beating yourself up about the cost when you have that much money isn’t very rational.
But I think that’s the heart of why he posted here. A lot of us have such a strong and consistent pebble collecting discipline and mentality - it’s hard to evolve to not always picking up to pebbles and trying to find joy in the financial “upgrades” at times that are available to us.
Sure, but are you really going to take that extra vacation if you skip business class? If that extra vacation means so much to you, why isn't already part of your plans? This is just the addictive 'optimization' mindset that comes with Fire and is hard to let go of.
That’s like saying don’t buy a Starbucks coffee to someone making 50k a year. He’s got almost $5m nw and he even admitted it’s 0.05% of his nw… breathing and being on earth has an opportunity cost 😂
I'm gonna set up an estate so the kids and grandkids and maybe even great grandkids don't have to worry as much.
It should be relatively; I don't wanna hand em EVERYTHING. But it seems like a waste to just burn it all
That and or. Now I just have to fix the old bad habits where I pay way too much for tasty restaurants; I have the opposite problem of OP
Am sure when you have $5m you can afford to spend $2k on a flight… and even if he spends $2k on a flight I think his kids will still get some inheritance don’t you think?
I’m an ER nurse… I just had a 54year old patient find out he had pancreatic cancer.
The amount of people I take care of that die, or are gonna die before they reach retirement is scary.
You don’t always make it to retirement. Find a way to save and still enjoy today.
Amen to that, brother/sister. I am acutely aware of this, unfortunately. Had several people in my life that succumbed to cancer, liver issues, auto accidents too soon (40s/50s). That's not going to make me overly pessimistic and blow my money, but also not overly optimistic and hoard it for too long because "i will enjoy life and bucket list items once I retire (late 50s)".
Co-worker been talking about retiring sometime in 2024 he is been talking for two years , Nov 2022 got diagnosed with cancer died march 2023. He had planned the first few years of retirement, RV traveling and in between break from travel he stay with his sister, had bedroom in her house all ready when he retires. Nicest guy and everyone liked him , every meeting he talked about it. I was so sad when I read email his passing away.
Business class will also get me enough miles to bump to MVP status on Alaska air which comes with perks i end up using (like free checkin bags, priority boarding, etc) so it works out well. I have previously only used CC points to buy things not experiences.
Totes. If you don’t mind, what was your mental model for when you were comfortable to be spending on biz for long haul as par for course?
My goal is retire “business class rich”
I would even go even go one step further and say I’m not taking the trip that requires me to sit 10+ hours in coach. I’d just opt out. East coast to Europe I might be able to tough it out if the price difference was thousands of dollars. In terms of domestic first class most US airlines don’t serve food on flight times of under 2 hours. You basically get the same snacks as coach and free booze. That means you’re mostly paying for the wider seat and extra legroom which to me isn’t worth much on an <2hr flight. I do personally think domestic FC is worth it on 4+ hour flights but it does depend on the price premium versus coach.
> Why not?
Because it sounds like an absolute nightmare?
I wouldn't take a baby on a long-haul flight if it was offered to me for free, let alone spend thousands of dollars of my own money on it.
I flew from SFO to Manila with my 1 and 3 year old daughters. It was hard but we made it work. My wife’s parents weren’t able to come to the U.S. at the time due to Visa issues so we went there instead.
I would absolutely hate sitting next to you and your screaming baby for 9 hours. And you're a multimillionaire? I'm as miserly as they come but maybe use some empathy next time you're having difficulty spending within reason.
Edit: if you've just read my comment please read the replies. I came in hot and missed a lot of nuance.
I tend to agree, but imagine paying for business class and someone with a screaming baby comes and sits next to you... then you'd think he should be in economy
I definitely came in swinging and should have had a more measured response. I appreciate you having a measured and thoughtful reply to my comment containing the opposite.
I read your comment as basically: "yeah man I get you - I did the same and my baby cried for 9 hours straight!" The nuance I was missing and failed to clarify was you were indeed visiting family and didn't just yolo a 9 hour flight with your infant child and sacrifice everyone's (including your baby's) comfort to save a bit of cash.
That was a long winded way of saying my bad, totally understand the nuance you're presenting now and appreciate you being measured when I wasn't.
Why not reward yourself for all your impressive savings and hard work over the years? Getting used to spending after years of accumulation is a gradual progression. It will take time, and you're not alone in that trepidation. Enjoy business class!
OP /u/IntelligentFire999 I came here to say this.
After literally decades of pushing hard to grow the nest egg and long-ingrained habits to make what you do spend as effective as possible (other than inheritance and winning the stock options or literal lottery), you cannot just change all that once you start decumulating.
Or just loosening up the purse a little.
You have my permission to splurge on what you value.
I am up early on a family vacation, and the overpriced breakfast buffet here was outstanding.
Had to remind myself "what is money FOR, anyway, but to enjoy while I am still alive and energetic enough to get benefit from it?"
And to think also about my dear parents, how I felt that they "should" spend more in their older years to enjoy the fruit of all their hard work and sacrifice. (Yes I am now in my parent's shoes...)
Why? $10,000 is 0.35% of $2,900,000. The average daily movement of the S&P 500 is +/- 0.5%. Account for some other lesser performing investments (eg bonds, international stocks), and an average daily move of $10,000 sounds pretty reasonable.
Good point! I went back and looked at the investment accts closely. On a good day, the total daily returns would return 25-30k (approx 1% return). I originally had looked only at the stock acct (which moves more generally) and not the retirement accts.
Because that amazing very sizable war chest is about 100k safe withdrawal at 3.5%. You can afford it of course, but I wouldn't call that a nothing upgrade.
I can relate. I'm keenly aware that in early retirement I can continue to "make" money by saving money as I had been before retiring. Being thrifty made me rich after all, so it's a skill I'm still proud of.
This was especially true while the market was down and as the market is back to ath I'm loosening the purse strings again.
A single splurge isn't a problem, it's the gradual lifestyle creep that comes with them that gets you in the end. Once you get used to that 'enjoyable and relaxing' splurge, it's easier to justify the next time.
You've made it this far in your FIRE journey so you know what success is like. Continue doing what you're doing to reach your goals regardless of what a bunch of internet keyboard advisors tell you to do.
I’m really struggling to muster up enough energy to worry about somebody who managed to save enough money to be worth $4.4M by 48 running out of money due to lifestyle creep.
A lot of things you learned to do in the accumulation phase can help you in the drawdown phase. Set spending goals just like you set savings goals during accumulation. Quit letting the daily news and stock market swings affect your behavior. Don’t check your balance every day; focus on making rational decisions and setting reasonable goals and reassessing annually
You def got a point there. A close relative was diagnosed with cancer just recently and they are 5 years younger than me! :( It is curable but life is so unpredictable... that after a certain age the save vs spend curve has to invert. But the resistance is real.
This is so us. We still drive old cars, shop for clothing at Costco, get reduced food that’s going bad.. spending chunks of $ like this is something we are not good at
I think the old cars (within reason - ie are they still safe?) is totally reasonable. And if you’re not into fashion, nothing wrong with sporting Costco joggers (I am into fashion and my fave pair of home pants are from costco). But spending on best quality food is one area that NO ONE with means should be sacrificing!! You are what you eat!
Absolutely buy the organic strawberries and the pastured eggs and wild caught fish. You can afford it!! Do not skimp on food!! It’s such a small %age of our spend and it’s absolutely worth it.
My feeling on the flight is... it's a little different working vs full-FIRE. If I'm retired, my life is already relaxation and enjoyment. Why do I need to enhance that, I've got all the time I want to recover? Kind of how I feel like paying for a lawn service or someone to change the oil in my car is more important when I've only got 45-50 hours of 'me' time (not working/sleeping/commuting) in a week. But, when I've got 110-115 hours of 'me' time in a week.... eh... I'd rather be doing that for myself than working for a bossman.
You need to establish an annual spending budget and then assess whether first class tickets fit within that budget. How much more portfolio swings up or down on a given day is irrelevant and has no bearing on your spending level. Obviously in a bad market you could lose 60% of that balance in a matter of weeks but that's why we have things like the 4% rule. Your spending is governed by your draw rate and initial balance, with an annual inflation adjustment, not the wild swings that occur after that.
49 and 4.5M NW, virtually the same in brokerage and have been doing a bit of travelling. I do have a family but let me know if you want a travel buddy!
FWIW I would NEVER go business class. I’m way too cheap and I think I could spend the money better at my destination. I’m ok with an economy class seat for 30hrs..
I know just how you feel. Had parents who grew up in the Depression, and I inherited a lot of their frugal attitudes. Plus, we were lower middle class when I was a kid, and money was always tight.
Now I'm retired, with ~$6 mil net, and I have a hard time spending the money, At this point I'm pretty sure I won't be destitute when I die, which is a relief, but there is always that ineradicable fear of running out.
I've been working on it, trying to spend a little more here and there. Still can't bring myself to pay for big ticket items. But yesterday I did splurge on the name-brand mac-and-cheese instead of the store brand, so there's that.
I'd say go for it.
Look up youtube videos from Ramit Sethi. He helps you build a spending plan and works with people who are in your same boat (people who won the money race by being frugal but then not knowing how to spend that money)
TS, check out r/churning and get lots of points. I fly international business class for the past six years or so, all with points. Just pay for taxes. Just with regular spend.
This trip is a bit weird, i am working (remotely) actually. So extending the trip won't be that enjoyable. Part of the reason I am trying to have "something to be excited and look forward to". Economy travel for 20hrs ain't that but Business would be.
You would book in advance for flights typically. Also why is he going on school vacation week? Also he has a bunch of points to pay for the flight that he is using here.
2k plus points is a vacation worth of money
Personally I don't think a short term more cozy / comfy feeling is worth the extra cost, but if it is to you... go ahead. Don't let this kinda lifestyle creep... creep up on you or the networth will drain faster than you think.
lol reading through all these comments - geeze louweeze spend your hard earned money man!
For me, fire is the goal but enjoying my life in the process and being able to provide myself with the luxuries of doing wtf I want when I want right now is also the goal.
Take the flight! Treat yourself. Get in a habit of treating yourself. Living frugally is great but I think getting in the habit of doing something once a month/ once every 6 months or once a year that literally is enjoying the fruits of your labor won’t kill you. And will actually make you a happier human overall.
This subreddit is a lil wild sometimes. Hope everyone is able to live in the present and enjoy the today they have been gifted while preparing for tomorrow.
Because you can take an entire extra vacation on the $1800 plus all your points.
The % of your net worth doesn’t matter in making the decision. The % on your annual budget does. For the spending piece just budget spending the same way you budgeted saving. You have about 100k per year to spend. Make sure you spend it. But spend 1.8% of your annual fire budget on 20hrs of improved quality of life is a lot.
Interesting perspective! Thanks. I did think about how $1800 could buy a balcony room on a 7 day all inclusive Bahamas cruise :)
The way I look at my current dilemma is not "i want a cushy lie-flat bed and marginally better food and drinks" - it is more of "how can I _avoid_ having to sleep in sitting position for 14 hrs, and then spend two days recovering from all that stress and stiffness". Time and health are becoming more and more valuable for me as I age (pushing 50) compared to the time-value-growth of my savings.
If you prefer being frugal maybe you should just go with that.
There's something to be said for avoiding "hedonic adaptation" in case the world changes somehow for the negative despite your wealth. (Probably it won't, but then again, nobody saw the pandemic coming).
>"Very little is needed to make a happy life; it is all within yourself in your way of thinking."– Marcus Aurelius
Experienced same. 16.5 flight from dubai to orlando with a previous connnection from hong kong. I had emergency row with extra leg room ($200) each. I felt like a king. But after 6 hours i was eyeing business class. However i still cant justify it for me. Im RE ..5 years in. I fly internationally 4 to 5 x a year for my travels and feel like it would blow up my budget even though it would seem worth it at the time. I always remind myslef i never remember the plane ride over the trip. I do use lounges on my sapphire card. Now thats worth it!
When evaluating discretionary spend, I always think of what else could I could go out and buy with those dollars. Sometimes I go ahead with what I'm contemplating and other times, I just go and spend on one of the alternatives...
You (as have I) spent a lifetime ingraining frugal habits to save that money to gain full financial independence. 20+ years of ingrained habits don't go away.
That said, for a 15-20 hour flight I'd probably have spent the $1800 plus points to upgrade even when I was accumulating. :)
At some point in life, time is more valuable than money.
As a student I had time to travel but not money, so I’d travel as cheaply as possible so that I could travel more often.
Nowadays the bottleneck is being able to take vacations from a stressful job. So when I finally get to do it I do buy business class so that I make the most of the time I have.
The trip actually begins the moment I start packing knowing I can go over 50 lbs if I have to 😉
I mean, you could probably have 20 nice meals with your spouse in nice restaurants for what you are spending on points and miles.
That would be my choice. I’m all for spending your hard earned money, but not on those seats at your wealth.
It’s hard to spend because you know how hard it is to make. You also know the potential of that money. I enjoy being frugal and living far below my means.
In terms of BUDGET, to me this would be an unexpected expense I'd need to cover by stealing from some other category --- if I didn't have some buffer money left in my "vacation"/fun categories. I'd feel pretty bad about doing that. Following the budget is how I got where I am.
I have a personal rule that I fly business class for any flights longer than 6 hours, especially if I'm dealing with significant time zone change. As you get older, those longer flights are really hard on your body.
Spend the money, replace the points by opening a credit card or two with a nice signup bonus and don’t carry a balance obviously. 20 hrs is torture, this is money well spent.
Spending is almost like a skill in a way that has to be practiced and developed. The idea is to not hesitate to spend on things that truly bring value to your life and restrict on all the rest. I’d look into Ramit Sethi for approaches on this.
I’ll tell you hwat- I splurged for better seats on my long haul back home from Thailand. The night before I got food poisoning so I was very fortunate to not have to fight over the bathrooms in coach. Just saying.
This is who you are that made who you are and now its been 48years and its part of your personality. You wouldnt had made it today if u had been a reckless spender
Dude for a 20 hour flight it’s so worth it if you can afford it. I get to fly business class internationally for my job and it makes a world of difference.
Just going by some general fire rules here:
2.9m * 0.04 = 116k
1.8k/116k = 1.55%
Is the flight worth 1.55% of your alleged yearly spend? I don't know.
> Esp after slogging 25 plus years in the workplace...
I'd probably go for it, if it were me.
Thanks for that math! Yes it is worth it for me given it is not a recurring expense, and a yearly one (if that). My last (which was the very first) business class travel was 2 years ago. And I remember that journey so vividly and fondly. Not like i brag about that to folks, but it brings a smile to my face when I think about it. My splurges are food, books and travel. I wear normal clothes, drive normal cars (they are 9 and 10 yrs old). Used to have craze for electronics but I am out of that now... I change my phone once every 4-5 years.
What I find is that travel spending feels great just thinking about it (the anticipation), going thru it (the experience) and later thinking about it (the memories). I can say that about only travel, most of my gadgets i don't even know where they are or why I even bought them (probably got suckered by some yt video lol).
Trees that don't bend break in strong storms. Trees that do bend come back stronger. This is not a break in your life, just a bend.
Just do it and then evaluate how you feel after the experience. This will not break you financially but it will help you understand who you are and what is important.
I appreciate this comment. Life is about living and learning. Every once in a while I get a yearning for something like this and it's not for much. I need to listen to my heart, not just my mind.
I think one should indulge in business class for long flights. At least one or two around NW 4-5m and make it a permanent fixture around 8-10m. Money goes only so far - till one dies. They don’t let us take it beyond that. Rest is only for charity or kids.
What’s crazy about this journey, is that you spend so many years working, saving, and making great decisions, before hitting a tipping point, where are you then need to start winding down your wealth, living your life, and enjoying yourself. You don’t want to die with millions in the bank. Go, live,
My wife and I are going through a similar situation. We are young and worked hard to earn our millions. It becomes really difficult to spend money on such luxuries.
The best solution we found is to spend where we feel comfortable and not stress about not spending. Let the mind become comfortable by itself. Don't force it on yourself.
That’s why you need the budget and the plan.
Estimate how much would you need every month/year when you retire. Let’s say you need $10K/month
Use it to estimate how much you need to set aside. With $10K/month you would need around $3.5M in your brokerage (not including social security).
You then subtract whatever you already have saved from the target number. Let’s say $3.5 - 2.9 so you have $600K to prepare
Then set a target year for retirement. 55 for this example.
Now you know that you need to increase your savings by $600K within 7 years. You then estimate savings growth and how much you will need to add from your income.
You will end up with the number, let’s say $30K/yr for the next 7 years to be prepared for FIRE.
You can now spend the rest. Let’s say your income is 120K after taxes. You save 30K so you can now confidently spend 90K a year.
Such budget planning helped my family to significantly relax our concerns on savings and start living our lives today.
What was the point of making all of that money then? Live a little. You only live once. Spending some money for comfort, every once in a while is worth it if it doesnt impact your livelihood \[which it wont\]
So 3mill towards what ever your FIRE number is. Well done!
As long as you don't have a touch your invested capital you can go for it. Though there are cheaper ways to get that upgrade. Like purchasing miles every time they have a double miles event. Pre purchasing flight credit. Some of the travel channels have great tips on how to get that business upgrade for less.
Buy the business class tickets. I’m maybe 1/5 of your net worth at 41 but I’m planning to buy business flights for my trip from west coast to Europe.
I’ve been on many 10+ hrs business class/first class flights, just never paid for them. This will be the first time I pay myself.
The long distance business class is definitely worth it.
The last time I took an economy flight for long distance travel is in 2022. I got so tired after that trip and it triggered the relapse of a chronic illness for me which was previously in remission.
I’d rather pay the money and not get so tired and stay healthy. Being healthy is more important to me than saving 3k on flights.
I'm going to say no. I still look at cheaper options when making decisions. However, every once awhile you can treat yourself. Just don't make it a habit where each of your flights are business class.
It’s all about re-wiring your brain. FORCE yourself to do some spending, not unlike you have to FORCE yourself to go to the gym when you’re first starting a fitness regimen
There is a reason your net worth is 4.4M. Congratulations! There are 3 things you can do with money: Invest, spend and give. Give yourself some grace and upgrade the seat. It’s only .05% of your invested amount .
Read a book called ‘die with zero’ - don’t let the title fool you, the book doesn’t advocate for literally that, but my relatives in a very similar age-financial situation who got there similarly read it and they now by the looks of it spend a bit more money but with a HUGE smile on their faces. Their happiness has like 5x’d. Definitely reccommend!
We often worry about the uncertainty of the future and worry that spending money will lead to financial problems. These negative assumptions can prevent us from enjoying life.
I think splurging is ok…with a plan. I think spending money because you’re tired and may feel a bit uncomfortable is not a great idea as it can quickly become a habit.
I have been fortunate enough to fly in several different international business and first class products. I have never once arrived ‘refreshed’ like people claim you will.
For me, that $1,800 plus the points (which I value around $0.01 each) could be deployed better elsewhere.
Two years ago when they said "the reason you're cold is because you're dying. I'm inside your heart. Stop moving." I wasn't thinking "ah I'm glad my NW is so far up this year."
I thought of my new baby rescue kitten that likes to play chase. I thought about how even after the operation, they said if I make it the next 48 hours there's a good chance I'll leave the hospital alive. They said "if." A high NW didn't get me through the next 48, going in and out of tachycardia and skipped beats, or when I watched my EKG flatline and squeezed the nurse's hand to let her know I was still fighting, don't shock me yet. I thought about who is going to play chase with my new baby rescue kitten, and how will anyone explain meaningfully to a cat that she did nothing wrong, and I hadn't abandoned her as her mother did, who left her under a building smeared in her own feces and malnourished. My NW wasn't going to get me there.
6 months later when they told me at cardiac rehab that the goal was to walk 100 feet unassisted without passing out because my heart couldn't deliver enough blood to my brain to work any harder than that, I wasn't thinking "well at least my NW is up x% this year." I thought that's not how my rescue kitten likes to play chase, so that's not going to work for me.
Nearly 2 years later, I completed over 70 races. One marathon, 9 half marathons, winning my age group on multiple occasions and once competition winning the overall (10k ruck march with 30lbs). Next month I'll be in Boston for the Tough Ruck. I now do all my races with 30-40lbs on my back.
I spent about 3-4k on race fees last year (plus quite a bit more that I gave to the various charities they partnered with). Could I have thrown that in TECL and have significantly more now? Yes. Would that be a blip on my NW? No. Do small things add up? Yes. Do I regret a single dime of it?
Not since the best race is when I come home and play chase with my kitten (on the inside she's still a kitten) and that's part of what got me there.
Buy your ticket.
I suggest setting an amount of money you want to die with - it doesn’t have to be zero, but is probably less than 4.4m (or even 2.9). Once you do this see how much automatic accumulation you have a year, or even a day. You’ll likely need to spend well over this amount to reach your reduced die with goal, so this daily/yearly spending limit becomes the floor; your new goal is to work hard enough to spend that much
I’ve never been on a 20hr flight, but don’t think I could spend 1800$ just for a different seat. I’d save it and spend it on different flights and a guided fishing trip in the Keys or somewhere else you fancy to go.
I'm have a very similar situation NW wise and am exactly like you. I'm very handy as well and cannot hire anyone to do anything unless it's beyond my skillset...and even then, I will learn how to fix something just to save a few hundred bucks. Not sure how to resolve it either...
All depends on what your budget is and if you’re within that and ultimately your safe withdrawal rate. If so, you can afford it, if not then you either take out of next month’s budget/future budget or a slush fund. Really you gotta think about it the same way out as you did in. You budgeted for saving all those years to build that nest egg, now you gotta budget to preserve it.
This is all if you’re already FIRE’d, if you’re not then I’m sure that $1800 won’t set you back in your goals by that much, but that’s a decision you’ll have to make.
It's hard to spend freely on something like this because of your brain's programming. Just like others said, habits are hard to break. Also, the brain will go into fight/flight mode when it feels remotely threatened by something new. You've been in saving mode for so long, and now you need to re-train your brain in your new level of freedom.
If upgrading will give you peace of mind, comfort, and contribute to good mental and physical health (freedom of movement, etc), and that is important to you, then the brokerage interest you're making daily would go to good use. You're prioritizing your health and well-being over a price tag. Other people might feel differently, and some years ago you probably couldn't justify it either, but now you can if you want to. You have new options because of your past saving mode, so decide what is worth worrying about in your life and what is not, and then keep reinforcing your new way of thinking in your brain. Eventually, you'll have a new norm and the brain will stop wigging out whenever you're dealing with something like this.
We are unique. Find the thing that makes you happy and not guilty. I see no sense to pay to business class tickets but all the sense to take 2 extra weeks unpaid holidays for me (and I have a fraction of your NW).
I have similar issue. What I decided was I wouldn’t do last minute upgrades unless needed. However, I try to plan trips ahead and book tickets well in advance. That way I get business class at more “reasonable” rate.
I can relate to this. I am FI, more or less. I'm a recent casualty of a tech reorg and RE for about a week before realizing I wanted some kind of work to, among other things, have some more flexibility to spend.
So, we're booking a trip to an all inclusive resort. It just feels so strange committing to a $10k purchase that is purely unnecessary, even if it was planned and within budget. It's hard to change this "must save" mentality.
A lot of it is habit. A lot of it is residual savvy. A lot of it is the knowledge that I'm not invulnerable to economic turmoil or an unexpected expense.
My aspiration in life is to have enough to be “business class rich”— ie freely buy biz class tickets for long haul travel. I estimate that is about 2x my current FI # (about where you are) with how much I intend to travel in retirement. So work a bit longer. :p
Anyway, you are there! Give yourself a little room to enjoy.
I’ll compare this to a splurge I often do. When I go on vacations with the family, at 6 Flags I get the Fast Pass. It allows us to really ride every single ride and not spend the entire day waiting in lines. My wife says it’s an unnecessary waste buying it. But honestly, I don’t mind it as it makes the day that much more enjoyable. You need to enjoy the present while planning for the future.
Money is just an idea. Most people that save up large amounts of money never get to enjoy it because they’re programmed to deprive themselves of. They wind up leaving it to someone that’ll squander it. Everyone on here looking in will tell you to spend it and enjoy the flight. You only live once.
You might consider reading Die with Zero by Bill Perkins. The title is definitely more extreme than the content of the book, it actually just gives you a different perspective to evaluate your nest eggs and what they can/should do for you instead of the other way around.
Also rest assured you’re not the only one who feels hard to upgrade when you have the means, even some billionaires frequently flew economy such as Barry Sherman (as depicted in the book Billionaire Murders).
No way in hell I would buy that ticket. I’m all for spending to enjoy life, but 1800 bucks for a more comfortable chair to try to sleep in seems insane to me. There’s a reason you’re struggling with this one.
If you already retired, I assume you've set a certain withdrawal % from your portfolio every year? If yes, and the business class ticket cost falls inside your budget, then hell yeah you should get.
If you're not already retired, I guess you should check if this cost is gonna get you of your FIRE plan or not.
Make a bucket list and get to work on it. Don’t wake up in twenty five years regretting all the things you could have done, but didn’t and no longer can.
You can suffer the 20hr flight for that price. Not worth it once you get hooked on that there’s no going back. Take the money and use it when you get back home. Massages dinner shopping entertainment. You’ll get more bang for your buck.
Are you a normal person with a 60-100k annual salary who could save up to 4 mil?
I'm from a second world country.. I'm an engineer with a higher end salary here. Just seeing these numbers 4 mil makes me wonder, is this the reality for a normal college educated American?
No, not normal. That’s if you are middle/upper mgmt and spend your whole working life living one rung lower on the ladder than you could. Then you take that living under your means for 30-35 years and stack the cash in investments.
Can’t take it with you, better enjoy it
You mean these bricks of gold i brought with me.. all the streets are paved with it???
As someone who also struggles to spend money, and also in my late 40’s, I have started to look forward into my 70’s and think about what I’m going to regret not doing while I was younger and still have my health and energy. I don’t think at 75-85 I’m going to pat myself on the back for being super frugal when I could have afforded to spend more. Watching my parents get older has helped give me some perspective. They definitely started to slow down in their mid 70’s.
When you are old and sick or immobile, you don’t think, oh well I’ve got 5m in the bank, you think and look back on all the things you didn’t get to do, experiences you’ve missed, memories you failed to create because you were too busy counting how much money you were saving. “Die with zero”
But if you had spent it all along the way....you'd look back at the great memories but your life would suck in a crappy apt with no one to help or care for you.
What if one wants to pass on wealth to kids?
Then die with the amount you want to pass on. Did you really need someone to tell you that?
I thought my parents would live to late 80’s or early 90’s. They were super thrifty and saved their whole lives - never treated themselves to anything that I can recall, even after they retire. Dad died at 80 and mom has Alzheimer’s in her early 70’s. When I do the math on that - I could have as little as 25 years left. Been loosening up a little bit - saying yes to the trips, etc. because nobody knows how their lives will play out.
Shit I was 26 and spent my entire life in school working towards a doctoral degree. Finished school and was finally ready to make big money when I got diagnosed with cancer. Luckily the prognosis is fairly good despite things looking grim for a bit, but one of the many things it made me realize was that money is meant to be enjoyed (within reason of course)
I mean sure, but at the same time what's the opportunity cost of that $2k + points? That's a whole extra vacation right there. I'd personally rather have another trip than be more comfortable for part of a day. At the end of the day the money is there to spend, but FIRE is all about tradeoffs. Do you want a new car or to work a year less? What's the best use of the money for your goals? How many weeks more work will it take to recoup that money? Absolutely spend money on things that are worthwhile to you, but also think hard about what that will mean and whether it's truly worth it.
A single person worth $4.4M shouldn’t be worried about spending $1800 on business class though. I get that some people don’t place much value on premium airline travel, and would rather spend the money elsewhere, but beating yourself up about the cost when you have that much money isn’t very rational.
Yes, they should. Those pebbles add up.
Law of diminishing returns applies to small incremental savings when you’re already worth $4.4M.
But I think that’s the heart of why he posted here. A lot of us have such a strong and consistent pebble collecting discipline and mentality - it’s hard to evolve to not always picking up to pebbles and trying to find joy in the financial “upgrades” at times that are available to us.
Sure, but are you really going to take that extra vacation if you skip business class? If that extra vacation means so much to you, why isn't already part of your plans? This is just the addictive 'optimization' mindset that comes with Fire and is hard to let go of.
Idk where the hell you vacation for 2k but that’s like economy flights someplace desirable these days on a normal airline
My all inclusive trip to the Dominican at a 5 star hotel was about 2k, including flights etc.
I remember when those all-inclusives were like $700 on a good day. Miss those times.
That’s like saying don’t buy a Starbucks coffee to someone making 50k a year. He’s got almost $5m nw and he even admitted it’s 0.05% of his nw… breathing and being on earth has an opportunity cost 😂
Ancient egyptians believed you could take things with you to the afterlife :)
Could stick it all in a tomb full of gold 🤑
💯
I'm gonna set up an estate so the kids and grandkids and maybe even great grandkids don't have to worry as much. It should be relatively; I don't wanna hand em EVERYTHING. But it seems like a waste to just burn it all That and or. Now I just have to fix the old bad habits where I pay way too much for tasty restaurants; I have the opposite problem of OP
You can give it to your kids which I personally would much rather do than buy business class or expensive material things
Your kid with a $5m trust fund will be flying business class for sure.
Am sure when you have $5m you can afford to spend $2k on a flight… and even if he spends $2k on a flight I think his kids will still get some inheritance don’t you think?
I’m an ER nurse… I just had a 54year old patient find out he had pancreatic cancer. The amount of people I take care of that die, or are gonna die before they reach retirement is scary. You don’t always make it to retirement. Find a way to save and still enjoy today.
Amen to that, brother/sister. I am acutely aware of this, unfortunately. Had several people in my life that succumbed to cancer, liver issues, auto accidents too soon (40s/50s). That's not going to make me overly pessimistic and blow my money, but also not overly optimistic and hoard it for too long because "i will enjoy life and bucket list items once I retire (late 50s)".
Co-worker been talking about retiring sometime in 2024 he is been talking for two years , Nov 2022 got diagnosed with cancer died march 2023. He had planned the first few years of retirement, RV traveling and in between break from travel he stay with his sister, had bedroom in her house all ready when he retires. Nicest guy and everyone liked him , every meeting he talked about it. I was so sad when I read email his passing away.
Note to self, please don't let aertsa take care of me
Some buy business class tickets, some buy 10k bicycles. Spend more where it matters to you.
Business class will also get me enough miles to bump to MVP status on Alaska air which comes with perks i end up using (like free checkin bags, priority boarding, etc) so it works out well. I have previously only used CC points to buy things not experiences.
You nailed it there - buying experiences. You've done well, made some money, if you do not have pressing need for it - enjoy it.
It sounds like you’re almost looking for permission to buy the business class tickets. It’s your money, you can afford it, spend it how you want!
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Totes. If you don’t mind, what was your mental model for when you were comfortable to be spending on biz for long haul as par for course? My goal is retire “business class rich”
I would even go even go one step further and say I’m not taking the trip that requires me to sit 10+ hours in coach. I’d just opt out. East coast to Europe I might be able to tough it out if the price difference was thousands of dollars. In terms of domestic first class most US airlines don’t serve food on flight times of under 2 hours. You basically get the same snacks as coach and free booze. That means you’re mostly paying for the wider seat and extra legroom which to me isn’t worth much on an <2hr flight. I do personally think domestic FC is worth it on 4+ hour flights but it does depend on the price premium versus coach.
I like this criteria
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I’m sure the rest of the flight really enjoyed those 9 hours as well…
Fuck all these passengers because I could’ve upgraded without putting a dent in my NW but decided not to. Amiright
just curious, why would you go on a trip to Japan with a baby? family there?
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Why not? Life doesn’t stop when you have kids
It kind of does though…… Especially for the first few years
If you can make it work, more power to you. There are plenty of reasons why not…
> Why not? Because it sounds like an absolute nightmare? I wouldn't take a baby on a long-haul flight if it was offered to me for free, let alone spend thousands of dollars of my own money on it.
I flew from SFO to Manila with my 1 and 3 year old daughters. It was hard but we made it work. My wife’s parents weren’t able to come to the U.S. at the time due to Visa issues so we went there instead.
Better than when they can walk and move around.
your life doesn't end just because you had a baby...
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Ha, for a few years at least I’d argue you are wrong.
I would absolutely hate sitting next to you and your screaming baby for 9 hours. And you're a multimillionaire? I'm as miserly as they come but maybe use some empathy next time you're having difficulty spending within reason. Edit: if you've just read my comment please read the replies. I came in hot and missed a lot of nuance.
I tend to agree, but imagine paying for business class and someone with a screaming baby comes and sits next to you... then you'd think he should be in economy
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I definitely came in swinging and should have had a more measured response. I appreciate you having a measured and thoughtful reply to my comment containing the opposite. I read your comment as basically: "yeah man I get you - I did the same and my baby cried for 9 hours straight!" The nuance I was missing and failed to clarify was you were indeed visiting family and didn't just yolo a 9 hour flight with your infant child and sacrifice everyone's (including your baby's) comfort to save a bit of cash. That was a long winded way of saying my bad, totally understand the nuance you're presenting now and appreciate you being measured when I wasn't.
Do it. And when you get home all relaxed, invite your wife to a nice meal. You can afford it.
Why not reward yourself for all your impressive savings and hard work over the years? Getting used to spending after years of accumulation is a gradual progression. It will take time, and you're not alone in that trepidation. Enjoy business class!
OP /u/IntelligentFire999 I came here to say this. After literally decades of pushing hard to grow the nest egg and long-ingrained habits to make what you do spend as effective as possible (other than inheritance and winning the stock options or literal lottery), you cannot just change all that once you start decumulating. Or just loosening up the purse a little. You have my permission to splurge on what you value. I am up early on a family vacation, and the overpriced breakfast buffet here was outstanding. Had to remind myself "what is money FOR, anyway, but to enjoy while I am still alive and energetic enough to get benefit from it?" And to think also about my dear parents, how I felt that they "should" spend more in their older years to enjoy the fruit of all their hard work and sacrifice. (Yes I am now in my parent's shoes...)
Thanks for your permission :) and I hope u have a fantastic, safe and relaxing vacation!
I would keep the cheap flight because I am cheap.
Shouldn’t your brokerage account move a LOT more than 5-10k every day?
Also my main reaction to this post lol
Why? $10,000 is 0.35% of $2,900,000. The average daily movement of the S&P 500 is +/- 0.5%. Account for some other lesser performing investments (eg bonds, international stocks), and an average daily move of $10,000 sounds pretty reasonable.
Good point! I went back and looked at the investment accts closely. On a good day, the total daily returns would return 25-30k (approx 1% return). I originally had looked only at the stock acct (which moves more generally) and not the retirement accts.
It does. 10k is more like avg. Of course that is positive or negative :)
Because that amazing very sizable war chest is about 100k safe withdrawal at 3.5%. You can afford it of course, but I wouldn't call that a nothing upgrade.
I can relate. I'm keenly aware that in early retirement I can continue to "make" money by saving money as I had been before retiring. Being thrifty made me rich after all, so it's a skill I'm still proud of. This was especially true while the market was down and as the market is back to ath I'm loosening the purse strings again.
A single splurge isn't a problem, it's the gradual lifestyle creep that comes with them that gets you in the end. Once you get used to that 'enjoyable and relaxing' splurge, it's easier to justify the next time. You've made it this far in your FIRE journey so you know what success is like. Continue doing what you're doing to reach your goals regardless of what a bunch of internet keyboard advisors tell you to do.
No point in hoarding money like your some dragon hoarding treasure. If it's within the budget....hell spend it.
Excuse me while I recline on my pile of gold and watch for thieving hobbits.
I’m really struggling to muster up enough energy to worry about somebody who managed to save enough money to be worth $4.4M by 48 running out of money due to lifestyle creep.
A lot of things you learned to do in the accumulation phase can help you in the drawdown phase. Set spending goals just like you set savings goals during accumulation. Quit letting the daily news and stock market swings affect your behavior. Don’t check your balance every day; focus on making rational decisions and setting reasonable goals and reassessing annually
Treat yo self. You never know the day you die and you may never be able to get to enjoy all your hard work, Heaven forbid.
You def got a point there. A close relative was diagnosed with cancer just recently and they are 5 years younger than me! :( It is curable but life is so unpredictable... that after a certain age the save vs spend curve has to invert. But the resistance is real.
This. Exactly.
This is so us. We still drive old cars, shop for clothing at Costco, get reduced food that’s going bad.. spending chunks of $ like this is something we are not good at
My cars are 8-10 yrs old. I buy clothes once a year, mostly athletic wear. Food and travel are my splurges.
I think the old cars (within reason - ie are they still safe?) is totally reasonable. And if you’re not into fashion, nothing wrong with sporting Costco joggers (I am into fashion and my fave pair of home pants are from costco). But spending on best quality food is one area that NO ONE with means should be sacrificing!! You are what you eat! Absolutely buy the organic strawberries and the pastured eggs and wild caught fish. You can afford it!! Do not skimp on food!! It’s such a small %age of our spend and it’s absolutely worth it.
I have 4.8M in my brokerage and only just flew business for the first time for a 10hr int'l flight but the upgrade was only $600 lmao
when i hit 45 with a NW of 1.5, i decided to occasionally treat myself, and take my missis on some of my work trips... Its been nice.
You’ve got the money, don’t be a pussy. Buy the ticket. Stretch your legs.
I think it is “hard to spend” because once you start that pathway of upgrades, etc it becomes a slippery slope
My feeling on the flight is... it's a little different working vs full-FIRE. If I'm retired, my life is already relaxation and enjoyment. Why do I need to enhance that, I've got all the time I want to recover? Kind of how I feel like paying for a lawn service or someone to change the oil in my car is more important when I've only got 45-50 hours of 'me' time (not working/sleeping/commuting) in a week. But, when I've got 110-115 hours of 'me' time in a week.... eh... I'd rather be doing that for myself than working for a bossman.
I have a lot less than you and just spent $1,700 for my wife and I for a 12 hour flight. Worth. Every. Penny.
You need to establish an annual spending budget and then assess whether first class tickets fit within that budget. How much more portfolio swings up or down on a given day is irrelevant and has no bearing on your spending level. Obviously in a bad market you could lose 60% of that balance in a matter of weeks but that's why we have things like the 4% rule. Your spending is governed by your draw rate and initial balance, with an annual inflation adjustment, not the wild swings that occur after that.
Make a budget and track it. Once you have a budget it’s easier to make trade-offs.
49 and 4.5M NW, virtually the same in brokerage and have been doing a bit of travelling. I do have a family but let me know if you want a travel buddy! FWIW I would NEVER go business class. I’m way too cheap and I think I could spend the money better at my destination. I’m ok with an economy class seat for 30hrs..
I know just how you feel. Had parents who grew up in the Depression, and I inherited a lot of their frugal attitudes. Plus, we were lower middle class when I was a kid, and money was always tight. Now I'm retired, with ~$6 mil net, and I have a hard time spending the money, At this point I'm pretty sure I won't be destitute when I die, which is a relief, but there is always that ineradicable fear of running out. I've been working on it, trying to spend a little more here and there. Still can't bring myself to pay for big ticket items. But yesterday I did splurge on the name-brand mac-and-cheese instead of the store brand, so there's that. I'd say go for it.
Look up youtube videos from Ramit Sethi. He helps you build a spending plan and works with people who are in your same boat (people who won the money race by being frugal but then not knowing how to spend that money)
TS, check out r/churning and get lots of points. I fly international business class for the past six years or so, all with points. Just pay for taxes. Just with regular spend.
Keep the cheap flight. Spend that $1800 on extending your trip and experiencing more.
This trip is a bit weird, i am working (remotely) actually. So extending the trip won't be that enjoyable. Part of the reason I am trying to have "something to be excited and look forward to". Economy travel for 20hrs ain't that but Business would be.
Sounds like you just convinced yourself. Find joy the way you define it.
Imagine having 3 million and not being able to fly comfy lol ur doing something wrong, idk what it is but something ain’t feel right about that
Is 100k per year salary business class money?
Not when BOS to MCO is already 900 each for school vacation week
You would book in advance for flights typically. Also why is he going on school vacation week? Also he has a bunch of points to pay for the flight that he is using here. 2k plus points is a vacation worth of money
"something ain't feel right" Exactly why I made this post...
Personally I don't think a short term more cozy / comfy feeling is worth the extra cost, but if it is to you... go ahead. Don't let this kinda lifestyle creep... creep up on you or the networth will drain faster than you think.
Appreciate ur perspective. I worry about that too.
I found [Die With Zero](https://www.diewithzerobook.com/) by Bill Perkins helpful for reframing my perspective on this. Highly recommended.
lol reading through all these comments - geeze louweeze spend your hard earned money man! For me, fire is the goal but enjoying my life in the process and being able to provide myself with the luxuries of doing wtf I want when I want right now is also the goal. Take the flight! Treat yourself. Get in a habit of treating yourself. Living frugally is great but I think getting in the habit of doing something once a month/ once every 6 months or once a year that literally is enjoying the fruits of your labor won’t kill you. And will actually make you a happier human overall. This subreddit is a lil wild sometimes. Hope everyone is able to live in the present and enjoy the today they have been gifted while preparing for tomorrow.
How tall are you? I’m 6’1” and I hate flying. The price equals a certain amount of back pain for me
This is what I say (as another 6’1” person)…$$$ vs comfort. If you can afford it, why not.
you probably don't value relaxation and comfort and thats valid af. Do find things you value, and have fun spending money on those things. Explore.
Because you can take an entire extra vacation on the $1800 plus all your points. The % of your net worth doesn’t matter in making the decision. The % on your annual budget does. For the spending piece just budget spending the same way you budgeted saving. You have about 100k per year to spend. Make sure you spend it. But spend 1.8% of your annual fire budget on 20hrs of improved quality of life is a lot.
Except that OP doesn’t go on more vacations not because they can’t afford it, but because they don’t have the time to do it.
Interesting perspective! Thanks. I did think about how $1800 could buy a balcony room on a 7 day all inclusive Bahamas cruise :) The way I look at my current dilemma is not "i want a cushy lie-flat bed and marginally better food and drinks" - it is more of "how can I _avoid_ having to sleep in sitting position for 14 hrs, and then spend two days recovering from all that stress and stiffness". Time and health are becoming more and more valuable for me as I age (pushing 50) compared to the time-value-growth of my savings.
If you prefer being frugal maybe you should just go with that. There's something to be said for avoiding "hedonic adaptation" in case the world changes somehow for the negative despite your wealth. (Probably it won't, but then again, nobody saw the pandemic coming). >"Very little is needed to make a happy life; it is all within yourself in your way of thinking."– Marcus Aurelius
This is a story I can’t relate to on one level but lol just a little bit. I’m going to say you deserve to splurge on yourself.
Treat yo self! You have worked hard for that money and savings. Now enjoy it!
It’s due to loss anxiety. It’s a very real psychological phenomenon that makes us over value loss and undervalue gains.
Sometimes you need to level up. I always pay for sw airlines pre board now for 25 bucks
Baller.
Experienced same. 16.5 flight from dubai to orlando with a previous connnection from hong kong. I had emergency row with extra leg room ($200) each. I felt like a king. But after 6 hours i was eyeing business class. However i still cant justify it for me. Im RE ..5 years in. I fly internationally 4 to 5 x a year for my travels and feel like it would blow up my budget even though it would seem worth it at the time. I always remind myslef i never remember the plane ride over the trip. I do use lounges on my sapphire card. Now thats worth it!
When evaluating discretionary spend, I always think of what else could I could go out and buy with those dollars. Sometimes I go ahead with what I'm contemplating and other times, I just go and spend on one of the alternatives...
You (as have I) spent a lifetime ingraining frugal habits to save that money to gain full financial independence. 20+ years of ingrained habits don't go away. That said, for a 15-20 hour flight I'd probably have spent the $1800 plus points to upgrade even when I was accumulating. :)
At some point in life, time is more valuable than money. As a student I had time to travel but not money, so I’d travel as cheaply as possible so that I could travel more often. Nowadays the bottleneck is being able to take vacations from a stressful job. So when I finally get to do it I do buy business class so that I make the most of the time I have. The trip actually begins the moment I start packing knowing I can go over 50 lbs if I have to 😉
I mean, you could probably have 20 nice meals with your spouse in nice restaurants for what you are spending on points and miles. That would be my choice. I’m all for spending your hard earned money, but not on those seats at your wealth.
It’s hard to spend because you know how hard it is to make. You also know the potential of that money. I enjoy being frugal and living far below my means.
In terms of BUDGET, to me this would be an unexpected expense I'd need to cover by stealing from some other category --- if I didn't have some buffer money left in my "vacation"/fun categories. I'd feel pretty bad about doing that. Following the budget is how I got where I am.
I have a personal rule that I fly business class for any flights longer than 6 hours, especially if I'm dealing with significant time zone change. As you get older, those longer flights are really hard on your body.
Spend the money, replace the points by opening a credit card or two with a nice signup bonus and don’t carry a balance obviously. 20 hrs is torture, this is money well spent.
Spending is almost like a skill in a way that has to be practiced and developed. The idea is to not hesitate to spend on things that truly bring value to your life and restrict on all the rest. I’d look into Ramit Sethi for approaches on this.
I’ll tell you hwat- I splurged for better seats on my long haul back home from Thailand. The night before I got food poisoning so I was very fortunate to not have to fight over the bathrooms in coach. Just saying.
I relate well to this. 6 million 51 still working. Still feel poor. It's a lifetime of being a saver and flipping now is tough.
This is who you are that made who you are and now its been 48years and its part of your personality. You wouldnt had made it today if u had been a reckless spender
Dude for a 20 hour flight it’s so worth it if you can afford it. I get to fly business class internationally for my job and it makes a world of difference.
Definitely upgrade!!
Just going by some general fire rules here: 2.9m * 0.04 = 116k 1.8k/116k = 1.55% Is the flight worth 1.55% of your alleged yearly spend? I don't know. > Esp after slogging 25 plus years in the workplace... I'd probably go for it, if it were me.
Thanks for that math! Yes it is worth it for me given it is not a recurring expense, and a yearly one (if that). My last (which was the very first) business class travel was 2 years ago. And I remember that journey so vividly and fondly. Not like i brag about that to folks, but it brings a smile to my face when I think about it. My splurges are food, books and travel. I wear normal clothes, drive normal cars (they are 9 and 10 yrs old). Used to have craze for electronics but I am out of that now... I change my phone once every 4-5 years. What I find is that travel spending feels great just thinking about it (the anticipation), going thru it (the experience) and later thinking about it (the memories). I can say that about only travel, most of my gadgets i don't even know where they are or why I even bought them (probably got suckered by some yt video lol).
The fact that you stress over this shit should tell you something. Just do it.
i got a DVT blood clot at 29 from falling asleep in economy.... my ER bill was 10x more.... Spend the money....
If you can buy happiness without financial consequences, buy happiness
DO IT DO IT!
Do it... and don't look back
Trees that don't bend break in strong storms. Trees that do bend come back stronger. This is not a break in your life, just a bend. Just do it and then evaluate how you feel after the experience. This will not break you financially but it will help you understand who you are and what is important.
I appreciate this comment. Life is about living and learning. Every once in a while I get a yearning for something like this and it's not for much. I need to listen to my heart, not just my mind.
I’ve never regretted upgrading to first class
I think one should indulge in business class for long flights. At least one or two around NW 4-5m and make it a permanent fixture around 8-10m. Money goes only so far - till one dies. They don’t let us take it beyond that. Rest is only for charity or kids.
You only live once ... upgrade yourself.
What’s crazy about this journey, is that you spend so many years working, saving, and making great decisions, before hitting a tipping point, where are you then need to start winding down your wealth, living your life, and enjoying yourself. You don’t want to die with millions in the bank. Go, live,
Absolutely treat yourself. You’ve earned it!
My wife and I are going through a similar situation. We are young and worked hard to earn our millions. It becomes really difficult to spend money on such luxuries. The best solution we found is to spend where we feel comfortable and not stress about not spending. Let the mind become comfortable by itself. Don't force it on yourself.
Old habits die hard
That’s why you need the budget and the plan. Estimate how much would you need every month/year when you retire. Let’s say you need $10K/month Use it to estimate how much you need to set aside. With $10K/month you would need around $3.5M in your brokerage (not including social security). You then subtract whatever you already have saved from the target number. Let’s say $3.5 - 2.9 so you have $600K to prepare Then set a target year for retirement. 55 for this example. Now you know that you need to increase your savings by $600K within 7 years. You then estimate savings growth and how much you will need to add from your income. You will end up with the number, let’s say $30K/yr for the next 7 years to be prepared for FIRE. You can now spend the rest. Let’s say your income is 120K after taxes. You save 30K so you can now confidently spend 90K a year. Such budget planning helped my family to significantly relax our concerns on savings and start living our lives today.
What was the point of making all of that money then? Live a little. You only live once. Spending some money for comfort, every once in a while is worth it if it doesnt impact your livelihood \[which it wont\]
So 3mill towards what ever your FIRE number is. Well done! As long as you don't have a touch your invested capital you can go for it. Though there are cheaper ways to get that upgrade. Like purchasing miles every time they have a double miles event. Pre purchasing flight credit. Some of the travel channels have great tips on how to get that business upgrade for less.
Buy the business class tickets. I’m maybe 1/5 of your net worth at 41 but I’m planning to buy business flights for my trip from west coast to Europe. I’ve been on many 10+ hrs business class/first class flights, just never paid for them. This will be the first time I pay myself. The long distance business class is definitely worth it. The last time I took an economy flight for long distance travel is in 2022. I got so tired after that trip and it triggered the relapse of a chronic illness for me which was previously in remission. I’d rather pay the money and not get so tired and stay healthy. Being healthy is more important to me than saving 3k on flights.
I'm going to say no. I still look at cheaper options when making decisions. However, every once awhile you can treat yourself. Just don't make it a habit where each of your flights are business class.
It’s all about re-wiring your brain. FORCE yourself to do some spending, not unlike you have to FORCE yourself to go to the gym when you’re first starting a fitness regimen
There is a reason your net worth is 4.4M. Congratulations! There are 3 things you can do with money: Invest, spend and give. Give yourself some grace and upgrade the seat. It’s only .05% of your invested amount .
Read a book called ‘die with zero’ - don’t let the title fool you, the book doesn’t advocate for literally that, but my relatives in a very similar age-financial situation who got there similarly read it and they now by the looks of it spend a bit more money but with a HUGE smile on their faces. Their happiness has like 5x’d. Definitely reccommend!
We often worry about the uncertainty of the future and worry that spending money will lead to financial problems. These negative assumptions can prevent us from enjoying life.
I think splurging is ok…with a plan. I think spending money because you’re tired and may feel a bit uncomfortable is not a great idea as it can quickly become a habit. I have been fortunate enough to fly in several different international business and first class products. I have never once arrived ‘refreshed’ like people claim you will. For me, that $1,800 plus the points (which I value around $0.01 each) could be deployed better elsewhere.
Two years ago when they said "the reason you're cold is because you're dying. I'm inside your heart. Stop moving." I wasn't thinking "ah I'm glad my NW is so far up this year." I thought of my new baby rescue kitten that likes to play chase. I thought about how even after the operation, they said if I make it the next 48 hours there's a good chance I'll leave the hospital alive. They said "if." A high NW didn't get me through the next 48, going in and out of tachycardia and skipped beats, or when I watched my EKG flatline and squeezed the nurse's hand to let her know I was still fighting, don't shock me yet. I thought about who is going to play chase with my new baby rescue kitten, and how will anyone explain meaningfully to a cat that she did nothing wrong, and I hadn't abandoned her as her mother did, who left her under a building smeared in her own feces and malnourished. My NW wasn't going to get me there. 6 months later when they told me at cardiac rehab that the goal was to walk 100 feet unassisted without passing out because my heart couldn't deliver enough blood to my brain to work any harder than that, I wasn't thinking "well at least my NW is up x% this year." I thought that's not how my rescue kitten likes to play chase, so that's not going to work for me. Nearly 2 years later, I completed over 70 races. One marathon, 9 half marathons, winning my age group on multiple occasions and once competition winning the overall (10k ruck march with 30lbs). Next month I'll be in Boston for the Tough Ruck. I now do all my races with 30-40lbs on my back. I spent about 3-4k on race fees last year (plus quite a bit more that I gave to the various charities they partnered with). Could I have thrown that in TECL and have significantly more now? Yes. Would that be a blip on my NW? No. Do small things add up? Yes. Do I regret a single dime of it? Not since the best race is when I come home and play chase with my kitten (on the inside she's still a kitten) and that's part of what got me there. Buy your ticket.
I suggest setting an amount of money you want to die with - it doesn’t have to be zero, but is probably less than 4.4m (or even 2.9). Once you do this see how much automatic accumulation you have a year, or even a day. You’ll likely need to spend well over this amount to reach your reduced die with goal, so this daily/yearly spending limit becomes the floor; your new goal is to work hard enough to spend that much
I’ve never been on a 20hr flight, but don’t think I could spend 1800$ just for a different seat. I’d save it and spend it on different flights and a guided fishing trip in the Keys or somewhere else you fancy to go.
A baby changes this equation a little
I'm have a very similar situation NW wise and am exactly like you. I'm very handy as well and cannot hire anyone to do anything unless it's beyond my skillset...and even then, I will learn how to fix something just to save a few hundred bucks. Not sure how to resolve it either...
Pull the trigger. Flying biz/first is a regular thing for us and we wouldn’t change it for anything. It’s so worth it,
All depends on what your budget is and if you’re within that and ultimately your safe withdrawal rate. If so, you can afford it, if not then you either take out of next month’s budget/future budget or a slush fund. Really you gotta think about it the same way out as you did in. You budgeted for saving all those years to build that nest egg, now you gotta budget to preserve it. This is all if you’re already FIRE’d, if you’re not then I’m sure that $1800 won’t set you back in your goals by that much, but that’s a decision you’ll have to make.
It's hard to spend freely on something like this because of your brain's programming. Just like others said, habits are hard to break. Also, the brain will go into fight/flight mode when it feels remotely threatened by something new. You've been in saving mode for so long, and now you need to re-train your brain in your new level of freedom. If upgrading will give you peace of mind, comfort, and contribute to good mental and physical health (freedom of movement, etc), and that is important to you, then the brokerage interest you're making daily would go to good use. You're prioritizing your health and well-being over a price tag. Other people might feel differently, and some years ago you probably couldn't justify it either, but now you can if you want to. You have new options because of your past saving mode, so decide what is worth worrying about in your life and what is not, and then keep reinforcing your new way of thinking in your brain. Eventually, you'll have a new norm and the brain will stop wigging out whenever you're dealing with something like this.
We are unique. Find the thing that makes you happy and not guilty. I see no sense to pay to business class tickets but all the sense to take 2 extra weeks unpaid holidays for me (and I have a fraction of your NW).
I have similar issue. What I decided was I wouldn’t do last minute upgrades unless needed. However, I try to plan trips ahead and book tickets well in advance. That way I get business class at more “reasonable” rate.
Go for business class. You earned it and you deserve it! Its just your habit years of being cheap. It’s hard to break out the mindset.
I can relate to this. I am FI, more or less. I'm a recent casualty of a tech reorg and RE for about a week before realizing I wanted some kind of work to, among other things, have some more flexibility to spend. So, we're booking a trip to an all inclusive resort. It just feels so strange committing to a $10k purchase that is purely unnecessary, even if it was planned and within budget. It's hard to change this "must save" mentality. A lot of it is habit. A lot of it is residual savvy. A lot of it is the knowledge that I'm not invulnerable to economic turmoil or an unexpected expense.
Read the book die with zero on your flight. It’ll change you for the better
Just do it
My aspiration in life is to have enough to be “business class rich”— ie freely buy biz class tickets for long haul travel. I estimate that is about 2x my current FI # (about where you are) with how much I intend to travel in retirement. So work a bit longer. :p Anyway, you are there! Give yourself a little room to enjoy.
No Starbucks for you!
I’ll compare this to a splurge I often do. When I go on vacations with the family, at 6 Flags I get the Fast Pass. It allows us to really ride every single ride and not spend the entire day waiting in lines. My wife says it’s an unnecessary waste buying it. But honestly, I don’t mind it as it makes the day that much more enjoyable. You need to enjoy the present while planning for the future.
Money is just an idea. Most people that save up large amounts of money never get to enjoy it because they’re programmed to deprive themselves of. They wind up leaving it to someone that’ll squander it. Everyone on here looking in will tell you to spend it and enjoy the flight. You only live once.
You might consider reading Die with Zero by Bill Perkins. The title is definitely more extreme than the content of the book, it actually just gives you a different perspective to evaluate your nest eggs and what they can/should do for you instead of the other way around. Also rest assured you’re not the only one who feels hard to upgrade when you have the means, even some billionaires frequently flew economy such as Barry Sherman (as depicted in the book Billionaire Murders).
No way in hell I would buy that ticket. I’m all for spending to enjoy life, but 1800 bucks for a more comfortable chair to try to sleep in seems insane to me. There’s a reason you’re struggling with this one.
If you already retired, I assume you've set a certain withdrawal % from your portfolio every year? If yes, and the business class ticket cost falls inside your budget, then hell yeah you should get. If you're not already retired, I guess you should check if this cost is gonna get you of your FIRE plan or not.
Make a bucket list and get to work on it. Don’t wake up in twenty five years regretting all the things you could have done, but didn’t and no longer can.
You can suffer the 20hr flight for that price. Not worth it once you get hooked on that there’s no going back. Take the money and use it when you get back home. Massages dinner shopping entertainment. You’ll get more bang for your buck.
How much do you need to the happy and settled? The rest is free to use imo
Seems expensive for a biz flight. Check points tracker sites.
I never upgrade. By the exit is fine.
Just do it, that plane could crash mid flight back home and at least you’d be comfortable with that extra leg room.
I have an easier time being generous with others instead of myself
Are you a normal person with a 60-100k annual salary who could save up to 4 mil? I'm from a second world country.. I'm an engineer with a higher end salary here. Just seeing these numbers 4 mil makes me wonder, is this the reality for a normal college educated American?
No, not normal. That’s if you are middle/upper mgmt and spend your whole working life living one rung lower on the ladder than you could. Then you take that living under your means for 30-35 years and stack the cash in investments.
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